The Core of Fighting Games: How Do You Deal With Throws?

[@jaayro]

The "if all moves are reactable, then offense is useless" was proven to be super true with vanilla For Honor. Tournaments would go on with two Warlord just staring at each other in that game LOL.

[@Pandaman64]

We even have data older then that. Super street fighter had dhalsim at s tier, because that version of the game ran slow enough that he could poke on reaction nearly all the time.

[@gummyboots]

it's a shame that when they fixed this issue, the dipshits that make up a lot of the playerbase whined and are still whining about it.

[@AmnesiacSai]

@@gummyboots A vocal portion of the For Honor community are not fighting game players. So they wine because they feel like you should be able to react to everything.

[@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149]

​@@AmnesiacSai Yup. And they still do. Some people, y'know? At least there's a plus with that many For Honor players aren't fighting game players first and foremost. I'm willing to bet at least some of them got into fighting games _because_ of For Honor. A kind of gateway drug, if you will.

[@babytricep437]

@@gummyboots I see two options 1. Add more health to weaker characters so they aren’t paper thin (shinobi, peacekeeper, etc.) 2. Decrease all Heath and have more rounds, making it more realistic to real sword duels where it’s over in a few strikes, but games don’t last 4 seconds For honor will never escape the trap because too many midevil fanatics still think the game is good and a fighting game because they want to be good at a “fighting game”

[@Giraffinator]

"Just take the throw" *gets thrown 6 times okay i guess i'll tech once *gets meatied into death i'm quitting all games forever

[@EnderTitan]

Just tech the grab bro 😎

[@scotter7663]

Just need to work on your delayed wakeup tech meaty block option select...bro

[@martmine4618]

Just jump lmao.

[@ashjudd]

shouldn't have been there in the first place bro!

[@pieterlindeque7798]

Mash backdash and super on wakeup. Trust me.

[@LumpyCrumpets]

Today in Sajam's comment section: We learn that apparently 80% of Sajam subs played for honor

[@AsDeft]

It IS a very interesting fighting game experiment

[@simongotborg3866]

Mordhau seems to have a similar thing going on. Seems like the only way to land a hit in high level play is to overload the mental stack.

[@ShadesGamin21]

Holy shit I didn't even realize a lot of the comments are about For Honor, I literally just posted one myself not even realizing

[@Rodrigo-x8g5w]

After about five comments in, seeing this comment just made me spill my coffee, lol. SO spot on about this comment section. Lolololol, this was too funny.

[@christianlamoureux981]

there is an actual example of people who didn't like throw being unreactable getting their way and the game becoming a turtle fest. In for honor throws had a ton of start up and were easily teched. On top of that strikes were simple to defend and the only guaranteed hit was after a parry. The result was the strongest option being to block until you parry. Parries were baitable, but also cancelable, meaning it was entirely possible to sit on defense and go1 your way to victory.

[@JinTheAceStar]

Yeah maybe during the guard switch times you could defend against all light and before they moved to servers instead of p2p. But even then you had Conq for example dominating due to his unblockable shield bash. The game turned much more read focused as a result. Metas shift

[@TenshiArix]

I remember this so clearly and it made me quit the game, there was literally no reason to ever attack because the second you swung you were at disadvantage.

[@weebtrash1146]

I can imagine complaining throws are unreactable. Imagine if someone complained about jabs being unreactable. They'd be laughed at

[@medicfdumbo]

This issue been long fixed but it’s too late

[@Zman7981]

Option select is the most underrated satire site ever. All of their headlines crack me up

[@richman6974]

I prefer when throws are a button input instead of a proximity command, makes them easier to execute and sometimes easier to punish too.

[@Atlas_FGC]

Having it on a startup animation vs proximity activation actually doesn't have any direct impact on how easy they are to execute or how easy they are to punish. I wish I wasn't procrastinating and did my vid on this already lol.

[@nellancaster]

I prefer input throws simply because it's just a little bit more intuitive to pull off than proximity throws. God knows how many times I wanted to do a throw but end up doing a heavy.

[@AgentBacalhau]

@@Atlas_FGC Kinda disagree, it's just as easy to execute yes, but it's harder/impossible to punish an OS'd proximity throw on smth like GG like, for example, Jam 6k+h throw OS is not only safe, it resets pressure. Not that it's bad design, it's balanced by GG's short throw range and abundant throw invul, but it's worth noting that proximity throws are often safer.

[@blackmanta2527]

1 button input 🤨

[@Sakaki98]

@@Atlas_FGC Sorry, but this is objectively untrue. Proximity activation whiffs turn into normals, which have entirely different frame data based on character and range as opposed to universal throw animations in other games. This absolutely affects if/how you can punish them, as well as how easy it is. For example, if you press to throw too early after a jump-in in SFV, you are now vulnerable for 20 or so frames and can get reaction punished easy. If you make the same mistake with, say, Terry Bogard’s forward throw in KOF, you get the two-hit close C, which has not only been his fastest normal in almost every KOF game but also leaves enough time for the Terry player to react with a down forward C into crack shoot or power wave to make the interaction safe, all the while getting some meter and depleting the enemy guard meter. These are both the exact same mistakes, but one is punishable and one is not. How throws are inputted absolutely makes a difference when it comes to the punish game, and my example is only one of many ways that can manifest.

[@bryinabrt]

having "I TECHED THAT THROW" messages on fightcade never gets pld

[@hemogoblin3076]

I feel attacked

[@thatguy8841]

Old*

[@KnightsDisillusion]

How to not deal with Throws: I TECHED THAT!

[@UnusuallyLargeCrab]

I TECHED THAT

[@pooplole]

@@UnusuallyLargeCrab but I did tech that though.

[@Asthiruma]

I swear I did how you gone tell me

[@deice3]

Ah, the famous brother of I BLOCKED THAT OVERHEAD!

[@bryanwhite2995]

''

[@blargh559]

If anyone has ever played For Honor, throws(aka guard breaks in that game) shaped the entire game for its first years. It's a medieval style 3rd person melee combat game where throwing people off terrain or into hazards means instadeath. You could guarantee a throw if you parried any of your opponent's attacks which at medium to high level people had the reactions to do. Results were that the game turned into a cheesefest meta of spamming only moves that can't be parried because using the rest of your hero's moveset could lead to you just dying. Defensive staring contests of both players just blocking and trying to out-gouda eachother

[@blgdoesthings4122]

...ok?

[@blargh559]

@@blgdoesthings4122 the entire meta turned to shit because of strikes being useless and throws being too strong on defense, these days you rarely land throws period 1v1 as the devs reworked the risk to reward structure and removed throws from parries. It's a healthier meta now

[@blgdoesthings4122]

@@blargh559 ah. cool

[@X19Virus]

@@blargh559 I guess I don't play FH much anymore but years later and i still have not broken the muscle memory to guard break after a parry lol

[@zokisvasta]

GG is ruthless about this really, it teaches you extremely quickly you're not supposed to stand right next to them for okizeme.

[@riku582]

Don't forget if your opponent is good at teching throws you can always whiff the throw which will cause them to whiff the throw tech giving you a full punish. This literally gets me every time and I hate it.

[@FatedFanatic]

The stuff about how important having at least some fast unreactable offense is in a game is a lesson I learned a few years ago when For Honor came out. Me and my friend were super amped up for the game especially once we heard that one of the focuses of the game was having a lot of things be reactable which to our minds at the time was like them saying "this game is gonna be REALLY FAIR" But as we got better at the game and fought against better players we realized that the fact that everything was so reactable made the game really defensive and it felt not worth it to try to play offensively (in a 1v1 duel type scenario) and the top classes at the time were ones that had at least one unreactable or hard to react to move... and while I personally do enjoy playing more defensively I dislike when one type of playstyle is kind of forced onto the players. (also as a note I'm only talking about the first like month or so when For Honor released and I have no idea how the meta developed past that point this is just what I observed at the time)

[@AsDeft]

The game is much faster now and there are plenty of unreactable tools for offense, but still has poor risk reward on a lot of moves and the blocking/dodging system is still too strong for defense. Its a cool concept though.

[@bugcatcherharold5315]

I love this sort of video where you explain how a partiicular mechanic works in general, and how different approaches affect different games. I'd love to see one about metre systems.

[@thelastgogeta]

Just take the throw. - Alvin Heath, 2020

[@fgc_tow3rn719]

I have a good friend who complains about throws all the time... I am also guilty of this from time to time, but this really changes my perception of the whole genre in general and how all offense and defense revolves around throws

[@caelan5301]

When I was learning fighting games, I started out in street fighter. I pretty much never threw people because they always mash at low level and once you learn a frametrap sequence you can just steamroll them. Eventually I started playing people who just block and never mash, and that's the moment I understood just how important those 2 buttons were. Go online in street fighter and just never throw, and you'll notice that people just block every attack and there's literally nothing you can do to open them up. The entire reason people mash is because they're afraid of getting thrown. The throw is the ONLY thing that stops someone from holding down back all game.

[@mmmk6322]

Play a better fighting game franchise that got around the necessity of throws. It's called tekken and attacks in that game exists on a a spectrum. Neutral is most of the round, blocking is not a calculated risk for the blocking opponent, movement is essential to downplaying your opponents mixups, counter hitting isn't a guess but a deliberate display of mind games.

[@caelan5301]

@@mmmk6322 so tekken is a game for people who think throws are cheap? I'm glad that exists, there's a lot of people like that.

[@harryvpn1462]

@@mmmk6322 "better fighting gsme franchise" you lost me there

[@dj_koen1265]

are there no standing overheads in sf? if so i understand that throws are very important

[@tjtribble.]

Rivals of Aether actually got rid of throws entirely, along with shields. Shields are replaced by a parry that you have to time and can’t hold. Obviously it’s a very different game than more traditional fighting games but it’s still interesting.

[@YangyChaddyDad]

True, platform fighters can get away with it since the movement is so robust

[@cylondorado4582]

NRS: I have an idea, how about neutral duck? Also NRS: How about a character that can tech your tech? Just kidding, better nerf that into oblivion.

[@reeidly]

You talking about people just staring at each other and not attacking reminded me of early for honor lmao

[@chaotickreg7024]

In Tekken you can get like 10 seconds of staring before the person with less HP looks at the timer and goes "Ah shit, I have to approach" and then the person with more HP just plays defense and waits patiently to parry the low attack. It's so funny that you can tell exactly when they look at the timer because they'll run in a little closer than usual but not too close.

[@rin2012]

the fact that you’re getting hit by throws is not because you’re opponent is picking a cheap option or hard reading you, it’s likely because you haven’t recognised your defensive habits and need to realise when you block and mix it up

[@impact1209]

Well said!!

[@justintejada5879]

I agree mostly, but you also have to remember that if you throw when you know your opponent is gonna turtle as a habit, it’s still considered a hard read. You’re choosing to walk forward and do a slower option than a farther reaching, faster normal.

[@martmine4618]

Or you're just playing guilty gear.

[@babytricep437]

I get thrown on THEIR wake up, bro

[@thecountercounter9127]

@@justintejada5879 leeets not get too hype over a throw. Throwing is a very soft read. Even though it is a riskier option that you need to consider that risk, it is still something that doesnt carry a SIGNIFICANT amount of risk as to seriously compromise yourself without an opponent doing a read of their own, especially in other games where that throw can punch through a lot more things (cough cough xrd cough cough). The risk is something to keep in mind and note, but its not something that you really consider as a major threat to your pressure.

[@Atlas_FGC]

6:08 You can definitely hover around the throw range for the opponent to make them guess if they should try the wakeup throw or not. Just step out of range right before they fully wake up. Some characters that have throw invincible moves can mixup in a similar manner between using the throw invincible moves or other normals to start an offence.

[@TheSeventhChild]

I wonder if there's a video out there documenting how ass early For Honour was because everything was reactable and after the game got dragged down into feinting heavies at each other it eventually had to shift into weird unlock dash attack gimmicks.

[@johnbarry5036]

back in 91' some players dealt with throws with fists, kicks, slamming heads into the ground, ladders and coffee machines thrown across a 7-Eleven, car chases.. lol. I'll avoid the more graphic stuff... All true stories, those were the good o' days.

[@Spunney]

yeah, man, the good ol days of violence over a video game...

[@aclosh2983]

@@Spunney good old days of having like a sense of humor

[@Spunney]

@@aclosh2983 i love it when a sense of humor manifests as physical violence, so funny!

[@espelhogamer]

Regarding that last point about throws being cheese in Tekken, the standard throws are reactable, yes and will be broken all the time at high level. But a lot of characters have multiple throws with the same startup but different breaks, so their throws are more like a 50/50 in that sense because you have to guess. I'm not saying it's cheese, just wanted to add that point.

[@vergilkilla1]

It is sad default throws are intentionally made bad in Tekken. But I think it’s always been like that in Tekken, really

[@dj_koen1265]

They nerfed throws in tekken 7 making them much more techable by removing the mixup part on normal throws If I remember correctly

[@5lender92]

Only king and AK have a true 50/50 throw mixup

[@fantasmaatriste]

IMAGINE TECHING THROWS! HAHAHA -this post was made by the NO TECH GANG

[@SoysauceML]

Take the throw

[@bobrianfo104]

When I get punished for mashing 2-3 times in a row and think "ok then I'll block for a while" and get yeeted right afterwards my brain stops working properly.

[@happycamperds9917]

*Laughs in 2 frame tech window*

[@fantasmaatriste]

@@happycamperds9917 hahahaha i love tech throws, they are fun! i wish more games also did what rival schools 2 did with the team up technique. i love how its essentially a grab and if u tech it a mini fight that last 10seconds starts and if countered succesfully the fight goes back to neutral, it feels very rewarding and it ads an extra layer of fun.

[@cymtastique]

I heard from someone once that regular throws were for positioning and command throws for damage and combos. I kinda like that line of thinking because it helped me to understand where throws kind of fit into my gameplan rather than simply thinking of them as counters to blocking.

[@cymtastique]

But the world of throws is so much more complicated it seems...

[@ShadesGamin21]

"The key mixup...the reason you need throws and fast strong offense is any game...is if you can see everything, offense is useless in the game and defense is too powerful." Try saying that in any For Honor community. They are so dense when I try to explain that the major problem with the game is that all offense is react-able they just simply don't believe me. Playing fighting games for a long time can sharpen your ability to see what is on screen. Sure, in a fighting game, I can't see a 5 frame throw break window, but I see the situation I'm in and react accordingly and of course, occasionally get thrown. In a game like For Honor everything is SO SLOW that you can simply stand and react to every situation put in front of you. I cannot seem to bring myself to attack in the game when the clear choice is to simply wait and block, dodge, throw break, etc. and punish. I know this isn't about For Honor but I wish more fighting game players tried the game and tried to show the community what is wrong with the game. I play it every once and a while and the same problem still exists, nothing is fast enough, everything is react-able. It's a shame too because I think the game is so fucking cool but it is simply to easy to play against people who can't actually react to what's on screen or it is simply too stressful to play anyone who can react and it just turns into a staring contest.

[@simongotborg3866]

I never got into For Honor for this exact reason but I've read the forums a bit out of curiosity. Seems like a significant amount of players are explicitly opposed to the idea of unreactable moves which just blew my mind. A while later I talked about this to a high level Mordhau player who said that good players always react and never guess, so I took some time to really pick his brains about the topic. He felt that guessing was unfun/unskilled and you should never have to do it. When I asked about how you actually land a hit in high level play the answer was essential "do a bunch of different moves", "move in a way so it's hard to see the animation" & "the opponent will mess up sooner or later". Sounds awful to me but to each their own I guess.

[@qedsoku849]

In Soku, the only throws are command throws and most of them are pretty bad. Instead, projectiles and wrongblocks (blocking a high or low incorrectly doesn’t immediately get you hit) will deal damage to your shield, and most projectiles and high lows are unreactable and lead into more pressure.

[@blank_e1]

When hftf has a 2f throw tech window...

[@HeirofDacia]

Doesn't xrd have 1f tech windows?

[@multistuff9831]

My man smiley

[@blank_e1]

@@multistuff9831 hello multi!

[@danielwappner1035]

@@HeirofDacia it does. You dont tech throws in that game. The throw techs you

[@danielwappner1035]

I'm surprised to learn this, as I tech throws in hftf rather regularly (in comparison to GG at least lol)

[@VolnuttPWNS]

I love throwing in UNI because it’s so satisfying to break predictable shielding patterns with them. That GRD break when you throw their shield is so dang good, and scaring people into shielding less makes it easier to win GRD fights and push harder with your pressure.

[@doncinati7644]

ahhh UNI. when will that amazing game get rollback 😔

[@taistealai5523]

@@doncinati7644 I pray to god it's in UniBeer (Basically Uni after Uniclr, just decided to meme with it)

[@doncinati7644]

@@taistealai5523 lmaoo But same :(

[@chaotickreg7024]

I thought Tekken wouldn't be mentioned but he even brought up Shining Wizard. This guy knows his fighting games. Edit: A couple things about Tekken throws. Nina and Yoshimitsu have untechable grabs but only from certain stances and they can both be ducked. Some characters have throws that grab crouching opponents like King and Dragunov. Some characters can even grab opponents out of the air like Gigas, or off of a wall splat like King. Throws can be reacted to, and you can mostly even figure out what button you need to push based on the grab animation, but some characters have grabs that break that rule by having grab animations that don't match the break. Some throws can be countered, some even only by specific characters. Iirc Nina has a grab that is just a slap, but if the opponent character is female and does the right input then they slap back, and they can just keep doing it back and forth. Heihachi has a similar grab that's a headbutt and male characters can just keep head butting each other until one dies or gives up. You can take less damage from King's giant swing if you tech roll when you hit the ground, but if he throws you at the wall then you can't tech and you also take extra damage. Tackles are also a whole mess of specifics. Tackles can be teched, but some tackles can be countered, some characters have special tackle followups or special tackle counters. Nothing in Tekken is simple, you have to have an encyclopedic knowledge or you will take damage that you really didn't need to take. Oh and throws beat out armored moves so they're useful for something even if your opponent has perfect throw break reflexes.

[@thelastgogeta]

While there is a meme about Sajam not even streaming Tekken, he knows his stuff. On your long post, I hope there are some good places to learn some of this besides the Zaibatsu (mostly as it may be good as I type) or Discord (tedious to join, ask and filter for older games). I'm trying to learn Tekken through Tag 2 at the moment. The slap/headbutt cycle sounds insane.

[@chaotickreg7024]

@@thelastgogeta KZbin is the best place to learn Tekken imo. Avoiding the Puddle has some good advice for beginners. Also find That Blasted Salami, FrameWhisperer, and TheMainManSwe on KZbin. I don't like the personalities in bigger Tekken discord but character specific servers should be a big help. A lot of the secret moves don't really matter for your first 1000 hours or something of gameplay, but it's really fun to know the extremely specific tech anyway.

[@thelastgogeta]

@@chaotickreg7024 Thanks. I'm already following SWE and Aris and have heard of the others. I'm hoping for some sort of Infil level guide (Killer Instinct) which may be a bit too much for anyone else to tackle, but I'll piece things together somehow. The super secret tech is the coolest and I'll take anything I can get to make Tekken Ball more varied. Probably gonna pass on Discord, I'd have to leave servers just to check another character one and need to do more work looking or socialising than learning in my case.

[@sebastiancartes9774]

in SFV there is a pretty similar meta-game bases on the OS for dealing with throws, insted of crouch tech there is a delay tech, an option beats both meatys and meaty throws, so you would delay your attacks so you would punish their throw or simply shimmy them

[@vergilkilla1]

There is no game where throws are more important than Street Fighter. The ENTIRE game at a high level is throw vs shimmy CC punish. Delay tech is not it vs good players... they’ll just delay their throw. Simple

[@sebastiancartes9774]

@@vergilkilla1 oki maybe, but there's footsies and firebal game too, also, what I said is that the meta game for throw/meaty is pretty similar in sfiv and sfv since there are defensive options that cover both ofensive ones, and you can deal with it shimmying and delaying your attacks in order to catch people teching, but that's just one layer of gameplay

[@kaceejones2282]

In KOF XIII it's also possible to forfeit the grab invulnerability period by performing a recovery roll. The grounded startup and recovery periods of a hop or jump are completely throw invulnerable.

[@filipeg.f.3136]

Can't believe we still need this to be explained or that ppl still complain about throws has being a cheap mechanic.

[@seokkyunhong8812]

It's as if fighting games aren't intuitive to play

[@Sakaki98]

@@seokkyunhong8812 This is subjective and vastly varies based on both game and player, so your attempt at dunking on an entire genre makes you look petty and childish. Personally speaking, I was doing raging demon setups in Third Strike before I hit ten years old and found that game incredibly easy to pick up, however I can’t understand Starcraft to save my life(even as an adult in college, strategy games are completely beyond me) and have broken god knows how many controllers trying to beat every Super Mario Bros game that wasn’t 3D. And there are plenty of people who have the opposite experience, being intimidated at the mere sight of a quarter circle motion while being able to manage dozens of facilities in real time in Civilization and doing frame-perfect runs in platformers like it’s no big deal. Turns out people are different, which affects their experiences both creating and playing games. Crazy concept, I know! Grow up and get some goddamned perspective.

[@b-d9099]

@@Sakaki98 Jesus you didn't need a whole essay to explain that. Most games don't feel natural to play when you first get into them but it's completely understandable how a genre with so many different button layouts and so many different actions tied to the same button could be unintutive

[@X19Virus]

@@b-d9099 Nah, he did. Don't stifle thoughtful discussion just because you're lazy and don't want to read.

[@filipeg.f.3136]

@Lilgav that article was about experienced players who still deny simple fundamentals or any attempt to understand or adapt and call it abuse/cheap. My point was never about new players, at some point they gotta stop being scrubs.

[@meowskiii769]

didn't watch the video, you press the throw button when he's about to throw you

[@multistuff9831]

In hftf throws are instant yet are techable. However, the tech window is 2 frames like come on capcom Not to mention some grabs range from over powered to “enemy gets full combo easily”. Luckily characters like dio have to hope that you can’t block or can’t punish their grab, else you can’t be opened up. A character like rubber, an annoying piece of shit, his grab not only gives him oki and gets you stuck in a vortex but it also builds meter like hell. I guess in some games grabs are in fact broken, especially when they seem like an afterthought

[@jozsva8064]

I mean backdash, and tech,neutral jump, wake up dp all exist

[@SupermanSajam]

What about the rest of the video on why throw design and how throw tech works shapes a large portion of offense and how you pressure.

[@hawk647]

@@SupermanSajam I think all new players going into fighting games should watch this! Although it has some confusing language or references. Newer players tend to not understand what happens when a game has weak offense and strong defense

[@jozsva8064]

@@SupermanSajam sajam lol i only watched 30 seconds before i madr that reply senpai

[@Abigdummy4life]

Even tho MvC3 just like TvC and Naruto GNT have 8ing-1-frame-throws?

[@kyleflournoy7730]

Throw for a lot of characters are the only opener that doesn't one touch kill in marvel 3 so most people feel like their better off just continuing the high low pressure until they get the hit. Cus they will eventually

[@thelastgogeta]

Are throws frame 1 in every Clash of Ninja? They seem to have stubby range and have a dedicated button which makes they feel more risky than games where they are an option select with a good attack button.

[@Abigdummy4life]

@@thelastgogeta yes. GNT throws are indeed in 1 frame despite their range. The time to escape from them is literally the same as for TvC and MvC3 throws. Bloody Roar throws may be the same as well.

[@thelastgogeta]

@@Abigdummy4life ... Strange but I guess that proves everything can work. It is the only series I know with a dedicated input which is frame 1 without even being a command throw or super move, but it still comes together as a solid component. They can pay off a lot to force KnJ or just give a free combo, but the whiff hurts as it should while you still have KnJ to cover for some mistakes. I haven't played much Primal Fury so I can't remember how it works in that or the series in general but I imagine its fine there too.

[@kaceejones2282]

@@thelastgogeta Naruto Ultimate Ninja

[@borederlands5387]

I was wondering when uni was getting brought up

[@seokkyunhong8812]

Fight of Animals What's a throw?

[@NoodleIncidental]

Rivals of Aether What's blocking?

[@thelastgogeta]

One Strike What's jumping?

[@jesperpersson465]

Thats the issue with for honor, at least back when i played every move was easily reactable.

[@CarInMyAss]

An actual button combination or something like that is always preferred to over the super turbo style for me because you always control the throw when you want it to happen like a command throw you don't accidentally get those

[@mcNakno]

KoF 13 has a pretty good throw system, generic throws have 1f startup and are done like in SF2, so you get a normal instead of a throw if out of reach. And you can only tech throws while standing, so cr. B vs generic throw is a true 50/50.

[@ckenshin3841]

How do you deal with throws? You take the throw!

[@rzqhipnox1667]

Mai shiranui is coming(soon).

[@kaceejones2282]

In KOF XIII after teaching a throw during a 10-16 frame window. A player cant be thrown for 11 frames after waking up from a hard knock down. It takes 6 frames after landing from air rest and a variable amount of framed after recovering from block stun or hitstun throw recovery

[@TrueChills]

Send this vid to LTG. Warning!: You might GTAB :)

[@KingJinzo2125]

Due to ltgs play style he doesn’t deal with throws as much as the normal person would (sfv specifically) ltgs problem is that he thinks the game should be specifically catered to him. Sad thing is that when ppl start beating him at his own game he’d still complain relentlessly 😂😂

[@Bladebrent]

I might as well out myself as a Scrub in Marvel, but I find throws in Marvel really annoying. For starters, Forward + Heavy or Back + Heavy can be annoying to lab sometimes if you're just in training mode. You cant just use those moves at close range to see how they hit cause then you'll throw. Its a minor annoyance and you just get used to it but im used to B+C or LP+LK being throw so its a separate input so you dont worry Second, the throws being INSTANT in Marvel means it can beat out alot of things. Including doing forward Heavy, but you were just slightly too far away for the move to land, then the opponent gets in and beats your heavy with a throw. When that happens, it annoys the crap out of me. And no, this is NOT saying Marvel throws a bad game design. Its designed for the system and its very good for it. I just suck at it. But the reason it annoys me so much is some games have an attack triangle with Attacks beating Throws, Throws beating Blocks, and Blocks beating Attacks. Some games emphasize this more than others. Sometimes ANY attack will mean you're not throwable, like in DOA or Pokken (though there are exceptions to the rule), and other times its more specific attacks will beat throws, like when a character has a command normal thats a jumping overhead so it whiffs like BBTAG having 5C and about half the cast has it be a jumping overhead, and the other half is extremely fast so beating 5C with a throw is difficult. So I get used to this attack triangle cause it makes sense. Then I play Marvel 3 and I'm getting grabbed out of my air normals (cause im bad) or my block strings (cause im bad) or my ANYTHING (because I suck at Marvel). Throws in Marvel are one to three frames and tend to beat out alot of options and, depending on the character, can lead to big damage, so it does get on my nerves. Again, not because I think its bad design, but because Im more used to Throws being a dedicated button or input that doesnt overlap with other options, as well as being slower.

[@MoldMonkey93]

Me a VF player that has had throw tech literally have zangief motions you had to do to tech and a separate button to tech crouched versions of throws with their own set of motions plus ground..... WEAK

[@Bilal44]

Yet you complain about unseeable lows lol

[@ReCharredSigh]

*Jeff throws you into wall, does half life combo utilizing all sorts of slams and bounces* "Just tech the throw man" *gets counterhit by toe kick into splash mountain to lose round*

[@Bilal44]

@@ReCharredSigh Hey, glad to see you're still around. I remember watching some really rare footage on your channel like a decade ago. Hope you're doing well. :)

[@MoldMonkey93]

@@Bilal44 There's no unseeable lows in VF, DoA or SC. I don't agree with the at all. Throws are okay to be like that because like Sajam says, there should be some form of that to break defense. Also, who are you and how you know I speak about Tekken like that?

[@MoldMonkey93]

@@Bilal44 In Tekken it's weird to have unseeable lows for the reward they give you. It's literally mixup up being given to you that you yourself as a player, hasn't established during the match. Why niggas get a whole ass combo in Tekken for that? Also, VF5FS simplified the Throw game with just 3 inputs for standing/crouching works a bit different for Goh since he has a throw sabaki to counter stand throws but yeah.

[@WinnipegKnightlyArts]

Can only win because he throws me... Translating... You will continue to lose until you learn to defend against throws. Fixed it for him.

[@icylives1493]

i be trying to tech command throws in dbfz. i truly hate myself

[@PurpleFreezerPage]

I'm thinking about designing a game where you cant throw or hit low, but the more they block the more chip they take. I think a game like that will prove why throws are important

[@harryvpn1462]

That game is called dnf duel

[@LLJKYCS]

I had a silly idea once for a fighting game with lows, but no crouching/blocking low. You'd have to jump lows. Also "the more they block the more chip they take" is very GG-esque: it has something called R.I.S.C. where the more you block, the more that gauge fills up, and the higher it is the more damage you take when you finally do get hit. On top of that, above a certain level any hit gets counted as a Counter Hit even if you didn't push a button (so the combo off that hit can be much longer on top of the moves themselves doing way more damage). Throws can't counter hit ever no matter what (they count as "Punish" instead which doesnt affect move properties or damage scaling) but will still do more damage based on RISC. Also no one knows what RISC stands for. Best I've heard is "Rad, I Soon Counter"

[@Thenadathor]

excellent analysis

[@jetblaksuit]

Oh god, BlazBlue and it's damn throw reject miss system

[@Elivanse]

Very interesting topic. I wonder how much will GG gameplan change with the 2 button throw input. Are we gonna se shimmies like in sfv?

[@Elivanse]

@Lilgav I wonder if we're gonna get the usual option selects.

[@no_nameyouknow]

How do you deal with Aegis shield in third strike? I know how to tech throws. I also know how to deal with Aegis, but parry is hard. . .

[@Bigsauce7593]

I actually learned so much about fighting games from this explanation. Im still gon be trash tho

[@Sandwichplss]

This type of knowledge helps you level up as you play cause you're better able to tell what's going on or what the opponent is doing

[@LDPRxPS3x1]

That's okay. I'm going to actually get started with fighting games once Strive comes out. Anyway, nobody starts as a good player. However, having a good knowledge towards fighting games might allow you to improve more efficiently, since you will probably be more capable of analizing your opponent's gameplan and playstyle, as well as let you know how to consistently polish your skills more.

[@stolensentience]

First thing I do in any new game is try to throw loop my opponent (and find a decent AA button). Not counting command grabs tho bc Zzzzz

[@mateusni2]

In only 1:30 minute, you describe the reality of Brawlhalla competitive scene

[@chitusplum4849]

Who do i pick among ryu sakura and kage if i wanna play in and out neutral footsies mostly?

[@Cordxll]

Sakura

[@lucashood7839]

5:50 Took me a long ass time to drill that into my head

[@KiIIerQueenboom]

another video about throw? oh thats different one 3 years ago

[@Logan-hx3md]

What are your thoughts on proximity grab vs button grab

[@thelastgogeta]

Both have a place. There is a benefit to proximity grabs from how it saves a button or combination of buttons. That being said, it doesn't need to lead to more moves to fit the game and some games have button grabs that are active really early (frame 1) but still has a whiff animation.

[@danielsanchez9791]

Never forget the wobbles

[@taurvanath]

Sajam is For Honor a fighting game?

[@CharlieLaCroix632]

What is that BOP of an outro song

[@hellvast1]

You dont need throws if you have block damage In the old MKs throw was sooo unreliable no one used them. But because of block damage offensive pressure, even if blocked was still usefull. Same for every tekken before 7, T7 is the first one to have blocking damage "off" by default.

[@KingJinzo2125]

Only problem I have with throws are mk11’s throw system. Others are annoying but throws are literally a crutch for ppl on that game. And the thing is it wouldn’t even be that big of a deal if they didn’t share the exact same animation with each other. It’s stupid af imo cuz the animation is already fast enough to catch ppl off guard, and the tech window is small so it’s really no need for a 50/50 in the throw game

[@babytricep437]

@@KingJinzo2125 it’s a 50/50 in a 50/50. Have fun!

[@ParagonFury]

Man, I'd hate to see what DoA would be like if throws weren't good there.

[@DonScrub]

Tech it.

[@takohma1056]

Gotta show this to my my psn friends who complain about throws lol. Maybe they’ll listen to you lol.

[@Minastir1]

just play touhou fighters with no throws but your guard breaks the moment you block too many projectiles

[@haydenhyde9395]

Or wrongblock too many times.

[@mrpinguimninja]

My only complain about throws is when they are one button+forward (or just standing close to your opponent). I'd rather have them be a two button command like 3s, SFV or Tekken. It feels way more intuitive and intentional that way

[@LucaRibeiro]

Hey @LTG check this out!

[@LuBaLu]

Have him play Samurai Shodown 1 against an Earthquake player, only then he will understand why throws are necessary.

[@chitusplum4849]

What is a "strike/throw game"?

[@TheSeventhChild]

It refers to the type of offense you will expect to see most of the time in the game. If you watch something like Marvel the main way of attacking your opponent is with lightning fast high-lows or crossups while they're locked down or with lots of visual clutter. If you watch Street Fighter or UNI, the character movement isn't so fast to usually allow that kind of thing outside specific situations and the main way you'll see people attacking each other is to make you guess if they're going to keep hitting buttons or if they will run up and throw you. That type of game is called "Strike/Throw"

[@chitusplum4849]

@@TheSeventhChild tyvm

[@dylanh.3793]

I’ve always enjoyed how smash handled grabs in their game design. You have 3 different versions of grabs and then you pick 1 of 4 different throws so there’s a lot of expression. Also some command grabs are fxcking ruthless in that game.

[@martmine4618]

Some throws are just better than other though, but that's smash, you don't get expression because you're too busy spamming your best move.

[@dylanh.3793]

@@martmine4618 we get it bro, you still haven’t gotten into elite smash. Stop being such a Debbie downer.

[@harryvpn1462]

@@dylanh.3793 you gotta admit theres something wrong with the fastfall nairs in ultimate though, more of first months take but the meta still have heavy nair usage

[@4lumc]

If someone keeps throwing out the same shit, and it keeps working, you're spamming a mistake

[@kingj521]

How i deal with all throws... i just act like i didnt just get hit by that lmfao. i play ken most even though Lauras my main

[@Yinlock470]

just don't get thrown, problem solved next question

[@mario-nk7be]

Where does rivals of aether, a game with literally no blocking and only parrying, fit into this

[@MrCrimsonftw]

If it has no block button then everything is an unblockable

[@haydenhyde9395]

But its not the core of the Touhou fighting games, where grabs as a universal mechanic doesn't exist and command grabs are highly scarce.

[@RockZerr]

take the throw and shimmy them ez

[@stolensentience]

Mortal kombat 1?

[@johnjohnson3390]

In tekken 7 you tech In mk11 you pray

[@magillagorilla57]

I really hate how there is no throw game in high level tekken. I know the game is complex, but it just feels wrong when someone is just blocking attacks all day

[@KingJinzo2125]

I understand why throws are necessary. I don’t use them much personally but I’m glad to have them. My problem with throws tho is specifically in mortal kombat. The throws there are both unreactable and they share the same animation which is just stupid imo

[@nrolling7192]

Every character should have overheads to make it fair and stop people from spaming throws

[@loohole81]

I have never understood why throws have quick frames especially because they "normally" do decent damage and throws are unblockable. Also throw animations in loads of fighters are notorious for having no clear definition that they are being performed. These traits with throws have been a staple for years. Why don't we see more fighters tweak or change the throw mechanic because honestly it's never been perfect, the fighting game genre normally fears change. And one last thing, online throw teching, inconsistent as the British weather haha.

[@vangoghsseveredear]

It would make it easier for the more casual crowd, and make throws completely useless to pros/higher level. Pros/competitive players in any game can tech throws an extremely large portion of the time; to make it even slower would eliminate throws as being an option because it would open you up to punishment. In that case, it would be better to just do a blockstring rather than risk and extremely slow, punishing move. Teching throws is hard, but it has to be, even though I'm sure we've all been pissed off by them lol. Hope that helps

[@loohole81]

@@vangoghsseveredear I don't know what your going on about, your talking about no change, so you don't want fighting games to evolve, ok. I'am talking about the throw mechanic doesn't have to be the same in so many fighters!!?! It's like why do fighting games use motion inputs??? Why do fighting games use multiple button inputs??? It's like once one fighting game does it the rest copies in regards to mechanics and systems. Thanks to this thinking the fighting game genre has ended up with all sort of dated mechanics and systems that should have evolved or should have been replaced. Nothing wrong with change. And the fighting game genre is the original king of the update, so the genre needs to step up and update and reboot a lot of it's legacy mechanics.

[@vangoghsseveredear]

@@loohole81 because there's a lot of moves for specific situations on a limited amount of buttons. Things havent changed because they work. What would YOU prefer? Do YOU have an alternative? You dont realize there's a fine line here. If you dumb it down, its not fun and not engaging. You cant do the inputs because you don't put the time in; the rest of us have no problem doing them. Yes, it was extremely hard at first when youre trying to figure it out. Now I can do them on reaction for a punish. I thought you were saying "throws are too quick and I cant react to them". And my point was, if you slow them down to where everyone can easily react to them, theres no point in them even being in the game. It essentially makes the move useless because everyone can get out of them. Theres no point in reinventing the wheel here. The thing about legacy mechanics, is that once you know them they're no longer a problem to you anymore and you can focus on something else, and your skills will transfer to the next game, or similar games. Not every game uses the same inputs, but its actually a GOOD THING a lot of the inputs are universal. Why? Because imagine trying to go from one game to the next, with every input being different with every single game. Youd have to relearn things every time you pick up a new game in the series, or a different fighting game. This is frustrating. The way that it is now, I have a pretty good sense that a DP motion will be an anti air, a quarter circle will probably be a projectile, and so forward. This is something that HELPS you, not the other way around. Its fine to reinvent and improve, but theres no sense throwing away everything for no reason. The system works, you just have to figure it out. And I really hope you do, because my point here isn't to be an elitist. I myself am not a fighting game god in any sense. But its honestly not as difficult as it seems the first time you pick it up. Like everything else in life, it just takes a bit of practice.

[@loohole81]

@@vangoghsseveredear "There's no point in reinventing the wheel" There is a point to change because changing mechanics or systems or anything maybe a 2D fighter without projectiles or a 3D fighter with loads of meters and gimmicks, you can find out that what REALLY works BEST for/in a fighter thus creating better mechanics and systems for fighters for years to come instead of settling for second best with what is already the norm. Looks like your set in ways Mr Van Goghs Severed Ear, me I'am looking forward to the future for fighters and they have come along way since my first fighter, Yie Ar Kung Fu.

[@vangoghsseveredear]

@@loohole81 im not, I think you're just grossly overestimating how much can be done with the genre and what's fun, while maintaining fairness and balance. There are a ton of videos out there about consequences of lowering the skill gap, why motion inputs are the thing, etc. You can look up if you're actually curious. Im more than fine with removing motion inputs, but the game needs to be designed around that being a goal otherwise it destroys the game. CVS2 EO being a great example. However, the power rangers game is a fantastic example of no motion inputs done right. Im not opposed to change, but I also don't think -every game- needs to stop what they're doing, because there's a whole pile of people who enjoy that, myself included. That was my point. I'll play any fighting game that comes out, but I dont think Street Fighter 6 needs to stop being Street Fighter.

[@windos7250]

lmao sajam has evidence.zip

[@NeoBoneGirl]

Great video, but throw is literally the most important part of like at least half of any random GG characters kit lol

[@SupermanSajam]

Yeah, I mean same with MvC characters tbh. Mostly the point was that games where characters have offense so powerful they don’t have to throw, how throws work effects how all pressure is structured/what you look for on offense.

[@Mubariz]

those SFV player names are so accurate. shoutout to all the church-going Timmy's that play this game

[@freshbroceries4601]

you can't get thrown if you mash on defense.

[@Sakaki98]

Except when you can.

[@mibbzx1493]

How to deal with throws: Just take the throw. Jump wakeup with backdash & create space & stop your attacks early neutral duck without holding a directional button to make them whiff.

[@noah-ux2cz]

Just tech them

[@Brotendo21]

SF take it any other game god hope I don't get hit.

[@justterrell956]

If you complain about throws.... just admit your adaptation skills are terrible.

[@pastorofmuppets9346]

I'm not a fan of throws either, I'd only give em to grapplers. instead of constant unreactable 50/50 shit, a guard and/or stamina gauge would be cool imo

[@mintcecream777]

You sound like a scrupman rdc is a 1+2 break smile

[@pastorofmuppets9346]

@@mintcecream777 what? u having a stroke or something?

[@pianta411]

I hate when the opponent is over using throws when he doesn't even tech throw mines, they should slightly reduce the damage of throws IMO

[@jordanpiggott11]

Lowkey that’s why enjoy most fighting games except for MK😭

[@mmmk6322]

Except for Tekken 7. Tekken 7 added 6 extra frames for the throw tech compared to Tekken games before that. Throws weren't completely reactable in previous Tekken games. Leffen calling it cheese is hilarious since he didn't play Tekken on normal mode, and only played easy Tekken 7. And even then, throws aren't integral to the offense in tekken, entire sets can go without throws or the threat of throws. In tekken, offense and defense are connected mostly to footsies, and footsies in Tekken is execution and reads. If you don't know how to block then sidestep, or control how far your forward dash is or how to backdash twice at least, you can't play tekken. movement is how tekken works, and that requires a lot of practice.