Sajam Discusses How Different Learning Styles Can Make Learning a Game Harder

[@SupermanSajam]

Lots of y'all are focusing too much on Leffen the human, and not on Leffen as the style of learning I'm discussing bouncing of Tekken for interesting reasons. It's a good example of something that I expect is pretty common.

[@kinginthenorth1437]

I don't even know who Leffen the human is and I damn near wrote a novel on this shit.

[@VoidEternal]

Well part of that is, in fact, who he is. And you stated it perfectly in your video, and I even got to see it during some clips from his stream. Leffen's *biggest* problem, is simply ~time~. (His rather interesting past aside, I'm not sure how well he's grown from those moments) He's trying *too* hard to become a *master* at a game he's completely new to. For someone who's been playing fighting games as much as he has, he should have had at least some inclination from some of his friends exactly how much there is to know in Tekken. I mean he went through all of this when he learned and was playing Melee right? The game doesn't teach you a lot of things, sure. But there's so much to teach he should've at least taken a deep breath and realized that the way he was trying to learn was to eat an entire pie whole instead of taking bites. There's just way too much depth in Tekken (which I feel is a good thing) that if you start off trying to be optimal, use Korean Back Dashes, and just running before you can crawl, you're gonna give yourself a bad experience regardless of the game.

[@MilkyCao]

@@VoidEternal to my understanding he was a bit of a lab monster during melee as well when he was starting (as in before he got famous). but i've heard contradictory statements about this so *Shrugs.* I tend to take leffen as a stuborn as heck player who wants to learn all options. i think for the safe of what's being talked about here leffen works as the start of the example, but trying to change leffen i don't think works as well, because he DEFINITELY is the type of player who built up what he knows and ignored what others told him to do to do it and advance as a player. (Keep in mind, this is the guy who decided to pick mewtwo in tournament (6th worst character in the whole game, below roy and GnW, for perspective) to both show how slept on mewtwo was, as well as to show how the EU scene isn't as challenging as the us one was, and he did really good using only mewtwo. you don't really do stuff like that listening to what people tell you, to be fair)

[@Robstafarian]

@@MilkyCao Ignoring tier lists is not the same as ignoring advice and failing to ask questions.

[@notsogreatsword1607]

A pinned comment?? By Sajam?? He knows we exist! Sucks that people are obstinately showing their ass. Ignoring the very clear point made in the video. I can't stand the exclusive snobbery that goes on in the fgc or any community for that matter. The video isn't about Leffen. It's about the pedagogy as it relates to fighting games using Leffen's Tekken experience as an illustrative example. It's neutral. It has nothing to do with Leffen. It has to do with how different people learn fighting games. You could replace Leffen with any super analytical learner and the point would still stand.

[@Dakotaidk]

Leffen isn't chill enough to become an utter noob again. I know many people who've given up tekken for that reason Were not called stoners for no reason

[@ShinkuCaduken]

Relevant avatar

[@anthonyaquino123]

I think Leffen is mostly upset that the game doesn’t even teach you most of the stuff that’s in the game

[@danielchalmers9815]

@Nani?! You mean like bullet patterns, First shot kick, Counter strafing, in fps games or Stacking buffs, boss patterns, safe zones in rpgs and so on and so on. Imagine playing idk dark souls and before every boss the game would pause and it would show you a comprehensive guide on the boss. Not to mention that these game mechanics are in many cases actually from a historical game development context are meant to be hidden. They exist as remnant functions of game design limitations and that understanding them to make use of them like frame data is actually a form of exploiting. Just like finding a spot in an rpg where the boss can't hit you but you can hit them. The main issue i feel is that people are utilising game design mechanics exploits at high level play and have been doing so for years, so it seems like that is how the game is designed to be played. But the thing is that its was 100% not (at least from a historical design perspective.) Now people expect to be taught these things, when the knowledge about it came from old jimmy down by the arcade 20 years ago not from the developer. But maybe it is time to explain these things. But who should explain it?? If the responsibility falls on the developer; What you will see is a steady simplification of the game over time and a removal of interesting game quirks like the "chicken reverse" Because the more they have to spend making tutorials the more time and money it costs them and the simpler it becomes to justify removal of "Errors". The Korean back dash could be seen as an error, the distance, tracking and hit box variance between characters and moves could be seen as an error. Again and again... Until you eventually end up with the fighting game equivalent of pong.

[@masone.9004]

Daniel Chalmers good tutorials for sure don’t require the simplification of the game. that’s a slippery slope fallacy. they don’t need to make complex tutorials for every super niche high level technique the players have found, but they should teach you enough to the point that you feel competent at the game and your character without putting in 5 hours of watching youtube before you can jump into ranked match.

[@danielchalmers9815]

The fallacy fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone assumes that if an argument contains a logical fallacy, then its conclusion must necessarily be wrong. So who knows what to think.

[@alcatrazclad]

I love how the video looks now. The camera placement was awkward before but now it looks natural. It was a pet peeve of mine so I’m glad you changed it.

[@anothernoob9110]

Isn't his appeal lost now? The commentary is still top tier but I want my bootleg stream overlay with 'bad' camera angles back!

[@SupermanSajam]

@@anothernoob9110 I thought my appeal was my thicc neck. I guess I was wrong

[@anothernoob9110]

@@SupermanSajam I have been your fan ever since you "blew up" on r/Games with that rant about being content with underwelming fighting games with no good QoL. Please never give that up man. It would be awesome to actually have a reason to play so many of the games I bought to support the devs for creating such great games with tight gameplay(and use that stick which was expensive to its quality)but didn't stick around because I knew there would be no one close enough to play here in Brazil(in a delay world at least). Btw I loved how you managed to tie in rollback netcode at the last 10 seconds. But given how masterful you always manage to perfectly segway to calling out the twitch subs, I guess being awesome like that is normal to you lol.

[@ennuigamer]

To learn to be a master, one must first be comfortable starting off as a fool.

[@andrepauli5583]

- Kim jung un 123 ad.

[@youngshinobi7208]

@blobland I know this is a year old but this analogy reminds me of Michael Jordan when he went to play baseball. Best hooper in the world to being an inferior baseball player.

[@braindeadbrick553]

tekken needs to be easier less moves less remembering stuff same mechanics just easier somehow otherwise it will never be popular kbd should be removed no normie is learning for a week how to move in the game, cant move u feel less while playing already on the start or just keep it as it is only for 5Heads that can remember 1000 moves and let it slowly die out

[@thejaunecnaguy5113]

I don't think it was the point here, but it is super super true imo and really important in a lot of aspects of life too

[@MH3Raiser]

@@thejaunecnaguy5113 I think its a pretty fair summation. If you're really REALLY good at something... say Street Fighter V, and you want to say pick up Blazblue Central Fiction, you'd probably think you'd have an edge over someone who's never played a fighting game, and you'd be right. In fact, when someone says, "Just don't worry about this, you're new. Focus on these elements and when you have them down you can worry about the rest" you might feel condescended to. I'm a fucking good fighting game player alright, don't talk down to me, I can jump in at the deep end. And THEN you'd be wrong. Blazblue is another legacy game like Tekken; there's a lot of shit to do with movement and mixups that are commonly known by the community, but won't be in any tutorial because they're based on emergent gameplay that's slowly grown over years and years of game releases. Blazblue is also a very VERY tech heavy game, where every new title just adds more to learn and very rarely takes mechanics away. So if I tell that Street Fighter V player to, "Either roll back or instant tech, don't worry so much about delayed teching yet, that'll come with time," I'm saying it because I know as a 10 year BB vet that those two options turn almost every wakeup setup into a 50/50. Sure, I use delayed tech when its needed, but I know when its needed not because I sat down and memorized it, but because over time I got the sense of what moves could be beaten by it, and at the speed BB is played at you really don't have time to think carefully about that: you just react. So for a new player... its literally impossible. This is something that, because of how SFV's wakeup works, a SFV player will have no greater advantage in learning than any other new player. Beyond that, because so many system mechanics are SO different from SFV, the amount of habits that have to be unlearned act as shackles around his ankles that a newer player won't have in the learning process. In order to learn Blazblue, the best possible way really is to just jump online and 'waste' around 10 hours of practice time just running around and playing the game, ESPECIALLY if you've played other fighters, because otherwise you won't be able to tell what you don't know and what should take priority in the learning process because there's just SO MUCH to choose from. For those 10 hours... you're going to be garbage. You'll probably get your shit kicked in, but by the end you'll start to understand why, and that'll be the first most valuable step to fixing that. You'll be garaunteed to play those first 10 hours as a fool, but afterwards you'll shrug that foolishness away easily. Compare and contrast to someone who is unwilling to be the fool and get their mistakes hammered into them for that long, who wants to lab and lab and lab until they skip that step and jump into the beginnings of mastery: good luck. Because those 10 hours you refused to play the fool for will be replaced with hundreds of hours in the lab. In order to reach mastery without burning out and to understand where you really need to improve, you have to be willing to face the parts of you that ARE foolish. Not because they're 'wrong', but because they're exactly what will make you strong when you face them honestly and adjust. So... to paraphrase that wall of text as the OP originally did: To learn to be a master, one must first be comfortable starting off as a fool.

[@AkibanaZero]

So many parallels to language learning here. When you're at an adult age and have a solid command of your own language, it's going to be challenging to sink back to child level with a new language. Leffen here sounds almost beat for beat like some of my most frustrated students in terms of progress. The way I see it, people who have this disposition should either accept that progress is going to be slow or challenge themselves by going against their nature. Some people in the comments are saying Leffen isn't a chill person and that's fine when looking at the surface. The likely truth, though, is that he doesn't know any other way of learning or isn't aware of how he's impeding his own progress.

[@saaah707]

Exactly what I thought of. People want to know every single word and grammar structure from the start and get buried in details, when they'd be infinitely better off becoming fluent with a subset and then expanding from there.

[@edgewizz862]

Nice.

[@atari_hmb]

@@saaah707 100% dude. Take Laoshu for example, he speaks 50+ languages and learned that going word by word is too slow and tideous for the mind. Going by typing sentences, hearing sentences and speaking them by a subset is more effective in learning. As you understand structuring later on via conjugation, passtense and other pieces it makes picking up other languages easier as well as helps it stick with you. I haven't touched tekken since 2014ish yet I remember all my Xiaoyu combos and I'm not even competitive and haven't been to a tourney in 6 years and only played for about 300 hours throughout my entire life...haha but learning those sample combos allowed me to expand into larger and more creative combos, as well as watching sodam and other top Xiao players. But it was a slow process that was enjoyable as I start by learning the basics which I found fun. The joy was in learning...I knew I wasnt gonna be Knee level within 6 months lol.

[@KuroShiiiiro]

i jus realized the parallels. im learning japanese & ive noticed i was super grammar heavy& wanting to know every little thing about a sentence to differentiate nuances & have correct pitch, etc. ive realized now i have to balance that way of thinking with "playing by feel". i still want to know all the small details ab japanese (esp cus english is SO different), but when using the language it all clicks bc im either corrected or not corrected. when corrected, im told what i should do and im jus like "okay". im usually a honer so learning a new language has been fun, but now ive been exposed to so much and done so little to the point where its overwhelming or didnt stick 🤣 kinda the same for fighting games too. so many parallels!

[@zUweebTripleA]

I really dig the new layout for talking about stuff. Here's to a great 2020 of Sajam fighting for netcode and teaching us fighting games

[@Bumpki]

Oh...sweet child

[@LeightonsLibrary]

Cursed comment

[@HasteXXI]

It was clear Leffen wasn't comfortable with the whole learning of Tekken at all. For a game with so much legacy elements and a non existent tutorial it was obvious it wasn't gonna work out. I'm sure he thought/really wanted to jump in and see if he could get good enough to be able to enter tournaments and go from there, so that probably added to the overall frustration.

[@felipechaves6100]

Unless you have a 3D fighter background, you don't just jump into tekken and become a pro level out of a sudden. Other fighting games concepts exist in tekken, but they work in such a different way that it is almost as if they're not in the same genre. I think leffen thought his skills in other Fgs/melee would translate to a soft transition into tekken, but no. Maybe if he had a background in Virtua Fighter or something things would be different, but VF is even more complex in a lot of things he said he dislikes about the game so... all in all imo you either play Tekken for fun, or you make it your main game and get to a competitive level, I don't you can have both in this game.

[@HasteXXI]

@@felipechaves6100 I agree that Tekken does take almost full commitment. Jeondding and book are two that come to mind that spent some time in SF this year and in turn didn't perform as well as they did the previous twt. Leffen should have went into the game with the mindset of playing it for fun, instead of getting good asap and going from there. He would have enjoyed the process a little more and in turn would have progressed quicker which is ultimately what he wanted out of it.

[@HasteXXI]

@Brian is that what he did? I didn't pay much attention to his stream. It was clear after a bit that there was so much criticism out of frustration that what he was saying didn't hold much weight to it.

[@noahleach7690]

Criticism holds weight if it’s opinion based on how someone feels, he was explaining why he doesn’t like something, because it doesn’t describe how you feel doesn’t mean it doesn’t hold weight, you just assume that what you feel is more important than what he wants

[@HasteXXI]

@@noahleach7690 My point was more that you would be more inclined to take criticism more seriously after the fact rather than mid frustration because it just seems like he's just getting annoyed and saying "this and that is trash because that's what I'm struggling with the most at the time". His criticisms from my memory were all pretty much fair

[@madrocts]

Yeah the biggest thing I noticed when I was watching Leffen learn Tekken was the fact that he was trying to learn the most high level things when he should've waited to learn that after learning the bare bones basic. For example the video he uploaded to KZbin of him learning started with him trying to learn the Korean Backdash, and the thing is if you watch Aris' video on Korean Backdash he literally says, if you are starting off learn how to move normally first and how to use your character, not because its too advanced but he understands that a player that is just starting off would get an overload of information. Hell even the chat was correcting him on mistakes he was saying when he gave his review on Tekken.

[@mellomessatsu]

Leffen wants every movement option available to him so he isnt at a disadvantage in already neutral alone, he wants all the tools in his kit

[@Theyungcity23]

Why not learn the Korean backdash it's a good tool and you can learn it in about an hour.

[@lucastonoli3256]

@@Theyungcity23 Because he doesn't understand block punish, doesn't understand side-step, doesn't know how to use the character he is using and it's a waste of time. It was also clearing taking way more than one hour to pull off a very shitty KBD, so that's not the route for him.

[@Theyungcity23]

@@lucastonoli3256 and yet he can learn any of those things in any order.

[@lucastonoli3256]

@@Theyungcity23 Yeah, but he ends up getting his ass handed to him by some mid-tier devil jin. You're free to be stupid, just don't complain about the outcome.

[@AdeptusForge]

This has been getting to me as an artist. I've spent so much time attempting to perfect my technique to run it by the book. Wanting to draw like Otomo flat out requires it, so I figured the best thing to do would be to not set up bad habits for myself early on and perfect everything as I go. I realize now that its the equivalent of me sitting in the lab all day working on my execution, trying to be frame perfect on everything, and not actually playing any games. I haven't put my talents into actually drawing so to speak so much as I've been spending that time mastering my control of my tools. So thanks Lemillion for that Sajam! As a side note, it might be a good video idea to bring up overthinking in the FGC, or just in general.

[@whatshendrix]

If you want to learn efficiently, the most important thing is to know when to be Sajam and when to be Leffen.

[@BigSleepy985]

I appreciate how this video delves into something that is applicable to things in life aside from Tekken.

[@Lipidman0]

I'm surprised you didn't use Leffen in your title but I respect the decision not to as it emphasises your point about it being a general "player learning style" and not specifically a "leffen learning style" Also I really like how the border bleeds into my youtube dark mode. 10/10 video

[@MoldMonkey93]

I've played VF for like 7 years, so, it helped me get an edge in learning Tekken as frames are similar in nature, as well as punishment overall. Thing about VF though is that there's a particular way they balance characters based on their perceived Yomi potential. Aoi has sabakis, so, her punishes are sub-par to encourage their use. Kage has no launchers on NH, so, he gets extra wall juggle extensions and combo grabs, Taka is too heavy to combo, so, all strings are NH on him. VF does make it so that if you block an elbow, you can elbow back because they're -4 on block. In Tekken the problem is some characters are left out on key moves. So, there's some DF1s that are -1. So, you have to choose Jab, which in turn is a predictable option. As a VF player, there's things Tekken does that's odd mechanically, that I feel is there to simply pad a player's learning experience, that in any other fighting game that time could be used to learn match ups. Movement is gimped in 7 in particular, to give new players an easier time. All other 3D FGs have factory new cars, but here's Tekken taking air out my tires.

[@MoldMonkey93]

A lot of the difficulty for this reason in Tekken is artificial as the yomi is within the character, not the system being balanced like VF. VF can still have unique characters, yet has a system in which as you're learning your character, you can use basics and fundamentals to create Yomi.

[@MoldMonkey93]

There are too much NH combo starters in Tekken that players think it's all they need to do. That's Tekken's fault for not encouraging solid play from the get and JDCR having to explain jabs is ridiculous.

[@Robstafarian]

I played some VF5:FS the other night, for the first time in months, after getting in some Tekken 7 a few days earlier; the contrast led me to a realization which is pretty much your point: whereas Tekken is about characters, VF is about systems. Tekken 3 and Tekken 7 are much more similar than VF4:FT and VF5:FS are. I really love Tekken 7, and I think it may be due to the absence of VF.

[@MoldMonkey93]

@@Robstafarian Ditto

[@MoldMonkey93]

@@Robstafarian I remember here in NY we had Tekken players try VF5FS and the contrast of their knowledge was night and day compared to when the VF players played Tekken. We've had good Tekken players admit, "VFs fucking hard."

[@pineapplepizza7889]

Watching this made me realize I learn like Leffen and that's why it's so difficult for me to learn a new style of gaming and dig deep. Damn Sajam you smaht

[@noboty4168]

Same. I looked back in my memorybank and realized that I am just like him in wanting to know everything right away, which is why I always have a hard time improving.

[@anthonyaquino123]

It’s making me feel like I should go back and give some games another shot, so I could play it more open minded

[@destroyermaker]

The playing by feel thing is something you should talk about more. I've realized it's imperative for me to learn by starting this way. There was another video I saw (can't remember if it was yours or somebody else's) that basically said you should learn by playing, then learn more in practice when you feel compelled to do so from actually playing. This has been great for me also. If I sit down and try to learn all the tech I get simultaneously bored and overwhelmed, and consider quitting altogether. But playing is always fun so it's best for me to pick up as much as I can intuitively first.

[@AX02Crusnik]

I totally get this with Leffen. I have a similar mindset when I get passionate about a game, unfortunately (kinda like how you said) there's a huge difference between me knowing what to do, and me being able to do it in the heat of battle.

[@joeyisabsb1]

Sajam is a great person to have to represent the FGC.

[@jeffkc93]

100% agree with Sajam

[@ilikebassmusic]

Keep on preaching, brother. Another one for my playlist compendium. Thanks for pushing your KZbin channel over the last year. I always experience your content with positive, productive energy. Thank you, -Miles

[@Theyungcity23]

I'm totally like Leffen. I want to have the full body of knowledge available when I learn something. It's why I prefer like w text book over videos when learning something complex and I like to know frame data.

[@deadfr0g]

Interesting video of Sajam talking, 5/5

[@BlueRhythmzDJ]

Personally even if a game has a deep tutorial that teaches everything and more, it's important to focus on simple things at first and build on to your knowledge over time to avoid overload. Of course that amount can depend on someones experience level, but ultimately it's important to be able to go play without treating losing as some sort of negative consequence. I think the main problem is some people just refuse to be at a clean slate with a game and vulnerable to losing to beginner level players or just losing in general which I think is a bad attitude. Otherwise for me in most games at first I just want to know a basic combo, a couple simple mixups and oki setups, anti air (if applicable), and movement options. Then just acquire more knowledge on what's been beating me and add other skillsets to my game over time. For a brand new player in 2D fighters I always preach learning and practicing anti air because that alone will help get wins against other beginners and with a couple basic combos they should be doing well enough to not feel sooo much pressure to learn soooo many things at once. Although tutorials I think should explain what good keys to success in the early ranks are so a beginner can go out and do well without feeling overwhelmed.

[@mappybc6097]

SF4 was the first game i played ranked online and I remember being stuck in bronze and getting frustrated. Someone then told me, hey, until you hit gold or higher you should just be more patient and let the other guy kill himself by making mistakes. And when you mess up, don't fall for the same trap and panic. That alone did get me to gold and had nothing to do with the game mechanics at all.

[@abirneji]

@@mappybc6097 I learned today that gold in street fighter is like the top 10% of players like dude, that's very good, in tekken that would be roughly mighty ruler

[@ddublu]

love the little netcode-check at the end. just for good measure.

[@Arthur-Mallmann]

man, just the oki situation can be so deep in tekken that trying to learn every option possible for every character before playing is impossible

[@Brass_Heathen]

Sajam I tried picking tekken since the launch of tekken 6. I just couldn't stick with it because thought I had to lab a whole bunch at the start. YOUR video that you put out a while back about keeping the mental stack small and not overwhelming noobs was totally what I needed for head space. I picked a new character just to start fresh and didn't even look at the move list. Just tried to see what I could learn just trying buttons. Learned youtubed his game plan and off I went. Now I'm terrorizing Dan 2 rank 😋 and loving it.

[@josepartida1711]

I’m learning tekken by feel. I slowly started to see how things worked. And with the help of content creators I learned the ways of the game. Granted I suck at every fighting game. And I’ll always suck. I just want to get to red ranks. 👍

[@CD-ek3iq]

Jose Partida Stick with it! The juice is worth the squeeze!

[@danielspencer5908]

@@CD-ek3iq Is it though? I feel like you'd be dedicating so much valuable time to a game that you'll eventually get bored with and move on to other games. When does a game stop being an engrossing and enjoyable way to spend your free time and start becoming yet another chore?

[@abirneji]

@@danielspencer5908 I always wondered about that, but honestly the reason I want to get better at tekken has nothing to do with getting somewhere in life I find learning and improving in that game to feel really rewarding internally, that feeling that I'm genuinely getting better at something feels great

[@danielspencer5908]

@@abirneji Hey man, if you're enjoying yourself that's all that matters, I was reffering to the people that keep saying "keep grinding even if you're not having fun because you'll have fun eventually".

[@GarrArts]

I don’t play Tekken, but i could hear you talk about fighting games for days on end. Thanks for the info!

[@chromulus2225]

I 100% felt this myself. I tried getting into fighting games for a year or two but I just felt the games were far to complicated. I did decided to learn Skullgirls because it looked fun. learned a simple BnB and just played the game. after spending ages trying to get into fighting games it was actually kind of simple. still got bodied, but I had fun. now I'm getting into UNIST after watching your videos on it and taking the same play the game approach has really helped

[@boredomkiller9985]

As someone who used to play a lot of Melee Leffen suffers from what I see a lot of Melee players suffer from. See in Melee Tech skill is sooooooooooo important and understanding how to deal with certain situations. In Melee execution and knowledge are so important to even being able to functional play Melee because if you can't L cancel, wavedash and what not you can't play any of the competitively viable characters in Melee besides Puff. In other games advance techniques for movement and such while important will not the make up for bad fundamentals. So I see a lot of Melee players struggle because they focus so much on executing highly demanding techniques only to lose to someone playing a sound fundamental game.

[@abirneji]

funny you say that, first thing leffen did when he started tekken was: 1) what's the tier list 2) what are the basic controls 3) ok lets learn the korean backdash he really went from 0-100 really fast

[@aidangillard2041]

As someone who joined the fgc with mk11: in depth tutorials are extremely important. Teaches you everything you need to know to get into the game the day it came out and I got to learn along with the other players even though I was new. Also the frame data and other info was in game from day 1. Now I only play Tekken but idk if that would be the case if it wasn't for the tutorial in mk11 and KZbinrs.

[@abirneji]

gonna be honest I just straight up ignore tutorials back when I was a casual, I'd click it to see what it's like then after 5 minutes just never go back people who complain about tutorials are people who want to get good, most casuals don't even care because they have no aspirations for the game

[@aidangillard2041]

@@abirneji dude I never liked fighting games until I played mk11 because I just don't like to button mash. Different people like to learn differently. For some people mashing isn't fun and learning by feel at first is too frustrating.

[@gacktcbiz]

I don't know why people keep on repeating the assertion that Leffen's chat was toxic while he was learning Tekken. I watched two of his YT videos on Tekken, and from what I can see of his chat, 99% of the comments were just people trying to help, but I think Leffen doesn't even know the game enough to recognize how helpful the chat was actually being. There was 1% that was being toxic, and it's easy to spot that 1% toxicity, so that's what Leffen grabbed on to.

[@Agent_Chieftain]

Yeah, I just watched the video myself. When he was asking how you know what grounded state you'll end up in after a juggle, everyone said "just look." Which is 100% true, because what you need to do is know what your opponents moves do when they hit you airborne, as well as what your character looks like being juggled. You either do that by being hit with it in a real match and remembering what it does, or going through a characters moves in training mode and seeing what they do on hit and juggle.

[@kinginthenorth1437]

Crisp new layout. Like it a lot.

[@-nomi.-]

gotta get your feet wet no matter what you're doing. like you said, you stack up all this information it just topples the first time you have it all in front of you. layer each new thing individually and you've got a better structure to build off

[@Mewtater]

Wow I needed this

[@1Diddums]

Being carefree, and the complete opposite of aggro will work wonders for anyone learning Tekken. Some people are far too "By the book" for their own good.

[@GawainSSB]

I learned UNIEL pretty much all on feel too. But on some level I would say it gave me bad habits with specific things like shielding and such. So sometimes it can be good to learn "enough" of the specifics so you dont get bad habits that are hard to break.

[@rolfjt5526]

Just imagined small cartoon-angel-versions of you and Leffen on each of my shoulders... This is also a great point for motivation, because that Leffen-mindset occurs so easy when playing FGs, and it can really kill the fun... Its easy to forget getting better when afraid of doing mistakes.. And wait a little with those details.. Leffen being as mature as he is with FG's its easy to understand he gets into this state himself...

[@Abigdummy4life]

This reminds of me of an argument that one of my friends came up with involving if a Tekken player tried to pick up a game like Naruto Storm Gens. A game like that has a lot of its unknown tech and hardcore community tossed to shit (cause in-denial casuals). But the point still stands that this info is too scarce and knowing what your options actually are tends to be something you have to dig too hard for. I stopped at learning tilt cancels with my friend due to it feeling like monotonous wavedash practice.

[@MH3Raiser]

I think this is a really good point. Take BBCF for instance, on the surface the mixup off of a knockdown can seem insane when you're looking at the highest level gameplay. The kind of schmix you can be hit with can be the definition of dishonest, especially with some of the higher difficulty characters or some of the less played characters online/at tournament. BUT... when you REALLY break it down... you almost always have a 50/50 chance of escaping the corner. Barring some very VERY specific exceptions, and we're talking certain characters with certain meter/character specific mechanic requirements. Roll out... or instant tech. Yes, delayed tech exists. Yes, roll back exists. But when you really break it down for almost every corner wakeup mixup in the game, what works on instant tech will not vs rolls, and what will work vs rolls will not work vs instant tech. So I could very easily say: decide either to instant tech or roll and decide based on your assessment of your opponent. If someone says, "Well what about delayed tech" I'll say... yeah, against some specific mixups delayed tech will fucking crush it... but against literally 90% of the shit that can be thrown at you, you get that 50/50. If you roll and someone tried to overlay their instant tech mixup, you literally get your turn back AND they're cornered. It's fucking huge. If you instant tech and someone tried to catch your roll, then they literally lose their meaty, and if you have a DP then honestly YOU have the advantage there. Now, if you want to learn ALL of Blazblue, and use every wakeup option evenly to try and figure out when to use it... you're going to get fucked up, because there is a LOT of tech in the game to punish delayed wakeup that will also meaty instant tech, for instance. So at that point you've reduced your odds from 50/50 pretty significantly. There are good reasons why people will say, "don't bother learning this at your level." It's not an insult to you as a player, its a statement of fact about the game and about what it requires from its players. When I first started learning Hazama, I literally learnt how to get good oki off of combos. His rising fang combos that give like 2k more damage but are crazy frame tight? Fuck it, because what mattered was getting combos that gave me the chance to land more combos. Once I had those down, I started working on the rising fang string, cause now I had an inside chance of being able to land it in matches. This was because when this string was added in Blazblue Chrono Phantasma it was literally a 2 frame link for its 5A version and a 1 frame link for its 5B version, and literally every Hazama main in history told me that even as a Blazblue veteran I'd be screwing myself over learning this. I listened, and now my Hazama is really fucking solid and I drop maybe 1 in 20 rising fang strings anyway BECAUSE I got to use them so much more in game: its free practise. If I'd have focused on learning that combo tech and never gotten to use it in a game: A) It wouldn't have been very fucking fun. B) It would have been useless to me in terms of actually getting better at Blazblue. and C) I would THEN have had to learn what people were saying I should prioritise ANYWAY (good oki and roll catch/mixups), cause its actually what wins matches on the whole.

[@iorilamia]

Leffen could legit learn from 444sen. No troll.

[@itsybitsyusitka2170]

One was described as Europe's hope, the other gets stuck overanalyzing tech rolling. Supa kicka 444sen wins again.

[@danielchalmers9815]

Like bullet patterns, First shot kick, Counter strafing, in fps games or Stacking buffs, boss patterns, safe zones in rpgs and so on and so on. Imagine playing idk dark souls and before every boss the game would pause and it would show you a comprehensive guide on the boss. Not to mention that these game mechanics are in many cases actually from a historical game development context are meant to be hidden. They exist as remnant functions of game design limitations and that understanding them to make use of them like frame data is actually a form of exploiting. Just like finding a spot in an rpg where the boss can't hit you but you can hit them. The main issue i feel is that people are utilising game design mechanics exploits at high level play and have been doing so for years, so it seems like that is how the game is designed to be played. But the thing is that its was 100% not (at least from a historical design perspective.) Now people expect to be taught these things, when the knowledge about it came from old jimmy down by the arcade 20 years ago not from the developer. But maybe it is time to explain these things. But who should explain it?? If the responsibility falls on the developer; What you will see is a steady simplification of the game over time and a removal of interesting game quirks like the "chicken reverse" Because the more they have to spend making tutorials the more time and money it costs them and the simpler it becomes to justify removal of "Errors". The Korean back dash could be seen as an error, the distance, tracking and hit box variance between characters and moves could be seen as an error. Again and again... Until you eventually end up with the fighting game equivalent of pong.

[@Suetakefan]

So my own personal style of learning is a bit of both knowledge and also feeling (mostly feeling it at first) but it's mostly getting a visual of what i want/need to do. Like my own problem with learning tekken is needing to see certain situations and how they're played out when properly executed (EX: buffering an AK df1 into the Giant Swing throw) and i can somewhat learn it but then i go online and online feels way different so now i gotta practice for that with a different visual for that specific kind of environment. Aris' tutorials helped me out a lot cuz i can watch them and have a visual template for what it should look like i need to be doing. I do feel for Leffen tho cuz homie sounds like he's one smooth ragequit from dropping it forever, hope he sticks it out and reaches that level of enjoyment eventually though.

[@Zlatko815]

There should definitely be tutorials, trials etc. in Tekken but bruh this guy is exaggerating and nitpicking af. No wonder he has bad reputation everywhere else.

[@corbinfish3245]

Here's how I learn fighting games, press buttons figure out the use for each button. Then look at specials and see what those are good for. Find out if I should save meter or spend it because you will get more use out of it . Everything after that is extra the basics of blocking and punishing neutral and knowing the right option aren't things I need to relearn anymore since I've spent my childhood on really shitty 3d mortal kombat and a bit of sf4 . Anything i struggle at i practice and combos are the least important thing to me so I spend way more time just practicing the application of a jab or how to get near pixel perfect spacing with my get off me moves . Idk it just works for me

[@jgeehk]

I think it's worth mentioning that Leffen comes from smash where chasing tech options is REALLY important like in Tekken

[@Aytoms]

fmpov, the way i've found best to learn something, is learn to apply each individual mechanic and tool one by one, honestly its like the very standard way, but it avoids overcomplicating stuff for me. guilty being like the prime example where once i realised that its pointless to like go and learn everything at once, the game instantly became more managable. i can get good at the basics, and then learn how to expand on that for higher level play.

[@redgopnik2227]

This sounds great, and is something I try to do myself - but oftentimes I find myself struggling to order things as more advanced things that should wait till later vs basic mechanics etc And unfortunately I've been hardly able to find any content that splits these things well, so I've just been hopping from fg to fg for the last year - at this rate I'm going to stick with games like Smash and Brawlhalla, and sadly not for lack of time, trying or money.

[@atari_hmb]

I just want to add, that smash ultimate never teaches you what wave landing is, nor attack canceling which optimizes specific characters. Same with kara throws in SF, or fuzzy guards. So not every game teaches you everything.

[@bobxbaker]

i think the public view on pvp games nowadays is suffering from a stigma that you need to know everything off the get go to be able to enjoy the game. but in my opinion the most fun you can have with a game is exploring a game for the very first time, you know the honey moon phase. do you really want someone to give you all the answers right off the bat? that's why some of our most precious memories with fighting games are when we just started out with them.

[@jvostudio]

Easiest way to learn to tekken is to be a scrub. Have fun satisfy yourself with combos and dont jump to the technical stuff early on.

[@SanaeKoaGaming]

I make really indepth tutorials for KOF (only in spanish) and there's something i have been noticing, it seems to me that the more in depth it is the less people are interested but when i explain the "simplest thing in the world", more people seem interested while of course there are the people who show up saying things like "lol who needs a tutorial for this" Most People seem more interested into learning just the combos and gimmicks instead of watching the video that teaches you how to play a certain character or the videos where i basically do the labbing for them with every matchup. I guess most people prefer just to get a quick fix "here's this combo and this gimmick, use them , good luck" instead of the indepth tutorial that actually requires the player to practice in real matches instead of just training mode (just for the combo). "Hey there's this video about this character, every single move and detail explained,situations,antiairs,combos,confirms,resets,mixups,blockstrings,frametraps,setups,properties of the moves,gimmicks everything you need to know to get decent at this character" and most people would be like: "Oh wow wow wait, you say i am supposed to put effort in this? just gimme the combos and the gimmicks" I think it comes down to people just not making the right questions, but the paradox is that how are they supposed to know the right question if they don't understand the game in the first place?, like how are you supposed to ask about neutral if you don't know that even existed?, what i am trying to learn is to learn how to teach better, in my opinion just learning gimmicks and shenanigans without knowing "why" they even work can hurt a player's game severely, making them get stuck while that gimmick became a habit. I know plenty of players who have been playing for 10 years or more, they still play the same way as 8 years ago using the same gimmicks and are essentially at the same skill level as before, players who play often, this seems to be very common actually. I guess it's a cultural thing , i have heard that the average skill level of a Japanese player is much higher than the average level of the west, not saying that every japanese player is better, just the average skill, there's something about them on how they go about learning stuff .

[@freeizzy8395]

Its weird that Leffen comes from smash a game that you probably have to look to outside sources for everything, but doesnt like Tekken.

[@JaneViolet_]

Well for what it's worth, Melee is not nearly as knowledge-heavy.

[@invertbrid]

Also he doesnt have passion for tekken yet. Thus making leaening things even harder. Tho he did say on that review, he probably will choose tekken still over ultimate, granted he hasnt learned both games deeply yet

[@enigmere]

Leffen hates that part of smash. just because Leffen comes from smash doesn't mean he likes everything about smash. in fact he dislikes the last smash games a lot, that is why he is looking for new games to play. Leffen is criticizing smash all the time, that is what he is known for

[@mrblackhouseprez]

He also plays dbz and they do the same

[@RaptureSR]

I realize this is a pretty old video at this point, but I ran across it and thought the discussion about Leffen being frustrated over not knowing which way to roll in Tekken in relation to his learning style was interesting. I think learning style may have something to do with it, but I also think what games someone has played in the past may also have an impact. Using the Leffen example, he has a history of being a smash player. In Melee, choosing a bad get up option is almost certainly instant death from any health against a good player. A bad get up option in Tekken could just lead to significant damage or being in an unfavorable position, rather than instant death from essentially full health. These things being potentially less important in Tekken until a higher level probably creates a certain amount of confusion because he's trying to learn a different system through the lens of an old one. How to get up is one of the first things you have to learn as an intermediate or better player in smash, but it might be one of the later things you need at an intermediate level in Tekken. When watching that Aris vid, his mind is probably saying: "I have to know which way to roll and how to get up properly because I'm used to that being a fundamental skill even for a beginner."

[@TheMrYesac]

SF6 will be my first FG since SF4. I wanted to learn from a friend back then, but his way of "teaching" was, "You learn by losing," and continued to mop the floor with me. I understand that, technically, he's correct, but I lost all motivation to play after that. I'm hoping the SF6 story mode will ease me in to the mechanics and let me get better step-by-step

[@Abo0odevil]

I really dont want bandai to make a tutorial for tekken because people will miss so much fun learning things in tekken by their own , like when i started tekken i was fascinated by everything new i learned and felt soo good after knowing how to deal with it , its just different learning tekken yet soo good If a guy liked tekken he will learn it no matter what , if he dont like it he just wont learn it

[@joaquinsandoval5370]

I main Tekken, it's the only fighting game I really care about and the only one I compete in. And I agree with every single one of Leffen's points in his review. When you just start, you're gonna get blown up by strings no matter what. All those strings have holes and ways to counter/punish them. But how do you learn that? years and years. And the game doesn't teach you any of that. Also, there's an important point that nobody ever makes: TK has its own system and it's different to any other game. There's no FG which you can say "okay, I know this game, surely this will apply to TK". The other 3D fighting games are completely different. Whereas if you know how to play Street Fighter, you're not gonna have a lot of issues learning King of Fighters for example. Because a lot of SF knowledge transfers to KOF even though it's different companies. Same if you're a Marvel player and you jump into DBFZ. The core gameplay will be very similar and the learning process will be super fast. But not with TK, as there isn't any other FG out there that's similar to it or follow the same rules. I can understand his frustration when he's just losing to strings or stuff he doesn't know how to deal with, basically when the opponents take advantage of his lack of knowledge.

[@Regdren]

How well do you think Virtua Fighter experience might transfer to Tekken?

[@joaquinsandoval5370]

@@Regdren Nope, everything's different. Starting with the button layout, the combo system, the movement, the way launchers work. Tekken has no open/closed stance or ring outs; and as far as I know VF doesn't have while standing attacks the same way as in TK.

[@Reydriel]

I don't understand why Tekken 7 is being shit on for not having a tutorial. A Tekken tutorial that explains everything in the game would probably number in 100+ lessons JUST for it's system mechanics, and that's not even including match-up lessons for the 45+ characters we have now, or any advanced tactics lessons. It'd require a large time and money investment for the devs to develop; resources they didn't have when creating Tekken 7 and porting it to console. Remember this game was technically made on a budget due to how hard TTT2 flopped (which they went all out on; it even had something resembling a tutorial!). FFS, the initial T7 release literally just re-used T6/TTT2 character models and costumes lmao It's also too large of a content update for a DLC, if they ever wanted to add it to Tekken 7 right now. That, and the fact that selling a tutorial mode as DLC would probably not be a good look (people already complain about having to pay for frame data display now, imagine how they'd react to a full-fledged tutorial). And they're sure as hell not gonna make it a free update, it costs too much to make. So we're gonna have to wait until the next Tekken game for any chance of seeing a tutorial mode.

[@911Smurf]

So typically, tutorials come free with the game muh dude

[@Reydriel]

@@911Smurf Yeah but T7 originally didn't because it was made on a budget, like I said...

[@911Smurf]

@@Reydriel My man, harada himself says there's no tutorial because nobody would play it. And how am I gonna believe budget is why T7 doesn't have one when no Tekken game has one?

[@arashi618]

@@911Smurf Tekken Tag 2 had one, packaged as Combot Training.

[@danielspencer5908]

That wall of text would have been relevant if there was any tutorial at all, even it was just text. Nobody is asking for a tutorial explaining how every useless fluff move interacts with one another with pre-rendered animations. Look how well SFV's tutorial is done, it's easy to digest and offers important information about it's most important game mechanics and every characters bnb playstyle. It had it from the start and is still adding upon it now, even it the game was a garbage fire at launch. Hell, look at SC6, a game with the same or higher level of complexity than Tekken. It still has a general tutorial and character specific ones readilly available. You Tekken fans are so zelous and deffensive about your game like it's the holy fucking grail.

[@saviorofseals5111]

You know, I'm not even sure if Sajam remembers this, but back when I tried learning KI a month or so back, his series where he started in whatever the lower rank was and outright said "you wouldn't know this at this rank so I won't do it" was a real big eye opener on how I should be structuring my learning of fighting games.

[@MurasakiBunny]

Tekken: Press Left Hand and Right Hand to Throw Me: Wait, that doesn't work!

[@foreverseethe]

There is no royal path to mathematics young Leffen.

[@FlytoZenith]

This really put into perspective why I couldn't get into Tekken. I really want to like it but I have this need to know everything I can know but there's just way too much for a new player to possibly know. Also the online sucks

[@rizqiefajar]

Fantastic explanation on leffen's mindset

[@kinginthenorth1437]

As for Leffen it sounds like he might need to learn from a pro or 40. Which way do you tech roll in every match up in Tekken is an overwhelming question to expect a guide on. Personally I either backroll or tech roll away from the wall most of the time. He might want to learn Tekken one match up at a time rather than learning the answer to questions like that 40 characters at once. Start by learning his own characters options when they get an oki situation which is just as useful to learn and helps in every match up but also starts to give a base of knowledge to know what would cause different options to be good or bad in relation to his own options. Then move on and answer it on a training partners main, an over represented or S tier character he expects to move onto next. Training partner would be the best option as they could tell you or just hit you till you figure it out. Now you know the answer for 2 characters and you move onto a third with a better understanding of what to look for as you delve into those insane 100-200 move movelists. But if you want to know the best option for every situation in fucking Tekken, you may have to accept the first step is expecting this shit to take time and maybe you'll have it down by the time Tekken 9 comes out.

[@GarethXL]

he plays fox in melee, where his option is like what 2? maybe 3 at a given time? i really like to see him him play an anime fighter thats not anime lite(DBFZ) like bbtag and people gives him all the info and match up and see him complain about the bs amount of match up info he has to learn. 🤣🤣

[@kinginthenorth1437]

@@GarethXL I don't actually know who Leffen is or anything about Melee. That was just my suggestion for the issue Sajam presented in the video.

[@GarethXL]

@@kinginthenorth1437 tldr leffen = pro melee player that whines about everything, if you remember a few years back where smash pros were complaining about not getting special treatment at evo, he's the guy.

[@VinceOfAllTrades]

Man, I relate to the Big Leff struggle so much, and not just with learning fighting games. I feel like that way of learning and its shortcomings are the standard model for education in the US. You learn and learn and learn until you achieve theoretical mastery, then start a job and no one cares what you know because you can't apply it to the industry. Back to fighting games, I do kinda hate when tutorials say "this is important, but not at the level you're at" because it makes me think that I could potentially be making bad habits by disregarding whatever it is.

[@coolcool5181]

3 months late but you're completely right and it gets very scary in some industries. In nursing school, your head gets kicked-in and filled with "theory." Some of it is useful like some Pharm and A&P, but other times its completely useless. A phrase I hear from my nurse relatives is "Nursing school doesn't start until you get your first job." However, these are human lives that are being "learned on," and that makes me a little uncomfortable.

[@TomFooleryPlusR]

I introduced a bunch of friends to fighting games and I noticed this as well. It's hard to know what's the correct way to teach each person. Friend A wanted to know the minimal stuff that works, friend B wanted to know what there is and when to use it, friend C wanted to know the simpler things first... Personally, I like to know what options there are and their properties, but learn when to use the options on my own; that's a part of the fun for me.

[@Brawndo5]

this thumbnail is fucking gold.

[@auradood]

Considering what Sajam said at the end there, I wonder how he feels about good players withholding tech until after a major?

[@axis8396]

I played unist a while back the way I had grid explained was really complicated and I broke it down to "grid fills, circle go brr, vorpal is a roman cancel that builds meter". I started playing Third Strike with a friend on fightcade and originally I wanted to play Yang but after messing around with stuff I decided on Chun and Dudley cause after playing Chun I was like HP/Kara throw 50-50 super go brr, and Dudley I like cause of his short jump is kinda like a hop and he does really high damage. I ended up playing that and tetris with my friend for like 5 hours yesterday XD

[@MrAgentIncognito]

I do get upset when a tutorial obscures certain information in the name of making it more newcomer friendly. Instead of being told to always roll backwards, I'd prefer to hear why rolling back is the safest option. I don't mean any offense to Aris's comment though, that's just the nature of Twitch comments. If a tutorial's author thinks a technical aspect might get complicated, they can section out their tutorial and tell their audience when it's time to discuss technical aspects. I'm pretty casual about fighting games, so I don't often look up a lot of outside information. However when I do look up tips, I expect the full depth possible.

[@kinginthenorth1437]

It's been a couple years since I watched that but I think he does explain that rolling back is the safest option because it was specifically added to the game in 7 to be a safe option for noobs overwhelmed by the 10 or so situational wake up options.

[@itsaboutmovies.55]

Tekken isn't the type of game where you want everything in theory. You've to feel it when you play.

[@CephlonMayngrum]

Most of the pros started off like that. There were no tutorials of advanced concepts in tekken when they started. They learned advanced concepts by feeling. Those feels.

[@andylawlzz]

Sajam finally resolving the game grumps argument. Jon should have taught Arin how to land on the platform.

[@Darkmoone1]

Man....that takes me back.

[@CephlonMayngrum]

Bruce lee even said, " dont think. Feeeel".

[@ItzTymeToDul]

Enter The Dragon wisdom

[@LupinxJigenTTV]

What kind of learner are the kof 13 trials are for? Lol. Yeah I've discovered learning hard combos as a beginner I to frustrating, so over combo trials

[@Reydriel]

I don't think the trials in KoF aren't meant to be tutorials, most of them are way too hard to be done practically lmao (unless I'm just a fucking noob, which is probably the case)

[@jadedbreadncircus9159]

I am jealous of people that can deep dive into frame data without wanting to draw up a living will first. I really need to hit a ceiling with feeling it out (which is where I am SF6 Ken Gold 5 now) & then solve my most blaring issue. Looking at frame data feels like nanobugs crawling inside skin layer 5.

[@nathanieljones8043]

Yes sajam that is correct

[@obi7841]

Sajam’s talk show Starring Sajam Streamed at Sajam

[@easygoingdude9990]

I get what you mean.. It was a solid year before I understood the difference between a side roll and a tech roll..

[@wanderingrandomer]

Growing up, I was always fixated on the "why" when learning anything. Like, it was never enough to just be told to do something, I had to understand what the reason was so I could internalise the assumed knowledge that goes with the action, otherwise it just bores me.

[@Mucmaster]

Man I saw the Sajam's talk show avatar in the corner of my eye and if fucked me up. I thought it was you double fisting coffees while a third arm grew out of your elbow on the arm on my left side. Its obviously a mic and stand when I look right at it but I was sitting here thinking you were some kind of eldritch horror for a good minute.

[@bigdsweet]

Pick Brian and snake edge all day till it doesn’t work. Then fix that. Repeat for everything. That is how the Tekken do.

[@godskitten49]

See for me, I can't just jump in, I have to know a certain amount of fundamental information before I think I know enough to go and fight, It took quite the amount of hours of messing around in training, vs cpu for me to finally go and play vs a player in both Tekken and GG. I want to know what my buttons do, what are their strength and weaknesses, and moreover the strengths and weaknesses of my character, and other, although learning moves of other characters is something i will learn once a player throws them at me. Only if I want to mess around and learn a new combo, or I got trashed by someone (Sol slash on round start, Gio drill pressure and crossup overhead) is when I go in the dojo.

[@guitarguy3085]

Sajam the sage.

[@NeoKurow]

For me a good or ok tutorial was the one from Cross Tag Battle it explained the basic and some combos for each character. I got bored of long ass tutorials from KI and skullgirls to be honest. KI and skullgirls specially make the wrong decision that they put some kind of trials in the middle of the tutorial. I want to learn mechanics and stuff not to take trials...

[@JameboHayabusa]

Honestly, I think this is why people consider me stupid until tournaments, because during online sessions, I will always do something I've never done before, just to see if it will work or not, during certain situations. During tourny play though, I just do the safe stuff. Although I do wonder if that's actually a correct way to play or not during tournament sets.

[@Dry_Fire]

Sajam, I was wondering what your opinion was on someone who likes fighting games but doesn’t like playing matches. In other words, their joy with the game doesn’t come from playing the matches but rather learning combos, mechanics, techniques, etc. in training mode. When they get off of work their first thought isn’t let’s play a match of SFV but rather what’s the next combo I can learn with Q.

[@Kimcirac]

I watched the 1st videos he released.. Idk man the 1st thing he did was look at tier list, that tells me he doesn't want to learn to play, he wants to learn to win and that in a game with so many situations as tekken doesn't work.

[@invertbrid]

Note that leffen wants to become good in the game as quickly as possible...by good means, pro torunament lvl players. So yea he wanted to learn top tier character (that he also likes), so increase his chance to win supposedly. Props picking kazumi tho, as she is indeed good way to learn fundamental

[@TheForhekset]

I only go into training and learn advanced shit, once I already love the game. I learn games by feel mostly. Once I get better at the game I practice lots in training. But I play most games casually, so I don't care to go to training mode and lab because it isn't that fun. I don't feel I need to be amazing at every game I play, because I'm not a pro player.

[@Agent_Chieftain]

Like Aris always says (and has a video about on youtube) there is a right and wrong way to learn Tekken, and if you're concentrating on the advanced stuff before even learning the basic fundamentals, you're doing it wrong. Don't try to sprint before you've even learned to crawl.

[@lukemacinnes5124]

I don't think Leffen realised how much there is to individual parts of Tekken, in smash you can at least learn all of the mechanics in about an hour (not necessarily utilise them but know them) and the rest is just matchup knowledge, in Tekken there's more to each move in the game and you can't just learn it all at once

[@thegoodpotatochip3047]

So I’m a savior in Tekken and I have a lot of fun with the game. The thing about me is that I hardly have looked up “how to/tips and tricks/strategy” type videos and when I do I honestly don’t retain much information. I also hardly lab characters. I do frequent twitch and enjoy chatting with people about the game, but most of the knowledge I have is from experience since I’ve been playing for about 5 years. If you stick with the game over the time the basic fundamentals such as anything 10 frames or above on block is punishable, 1+2 breaks most command throws, etc will cement with you. But I haven’t burdened myself(don’t get offended, that’s just my view on it) with learning the specifics of the game. For example I’ll eyeball punishes instead of learning all the frames. If my punish doesn’t work a couple times then I go to a move I feel has less frames. Parallel with Leffen I don’t care for all the college research that comes with Tekken. It’s actually my only fighting game for I like online shooters more. The difference is I’m playing for fun and don’t mind the trial and error style of learning. Yes I’m aware that I’d be a better player if I dedicated time to learning more, but I just don’t care much to do it.

[@thegoodpotatochip3047]

This masters thesis is directed towards the people who might have been spooked out of playing Tekken because of Leffen. I’ve seen many people say that they’re scared to even get into this game causally because it’s too rough for newbies. It’s just reassurance that while Tekken is one of the hardest fighting games you can still get into it casually and have fun, as long as you like the game and don’t mind ambiguity. Just learn the basic fundamentals and if you want to push yourself to improve faster then, by all means, go for it😃

[@zestyfg]

I'm always baffled when really good players don't know that much about frame data. (mainly in Street Fighter) Am I doing something wrong here? I just feel like it would take way too much time if I had to learn it by experience.

[@stylesheetra9411]

The enemy do x you block and then do y, no frame data required Dont know about sf, in Tekken everyone throw save moves + 2/3 punishable moves during mixup

[@playing_jazz]

You would be surprised how many people make their livings in labs using half a million dollar machines who never read the manual LOL I'm a slow learner because I overthink everything. I can easily win most of those games but I always have to optimize my time and experiment as much as possible when I know I can win. New player love playing with me though because I have so much fun trying things I don't need to just bulldoze them with the first problem they don't have a solution to. Eventually though I get pretty oppressive because I'm super comfortable in every situation.

[@capnbarky2682]

I actually love picking up new games precisely because you get so many new "it doesn't matter until you're better" moments. I picked up Tekken on the PS4 sale and it is honestly amazing fun slowly building up the arsenal one move at a time. Over the holidays I got pretty good with Dragunov's pokes and winning neutral, but I was having trouble with an Armor King who only had to hit me once and my entire lifebar would get deleted, even though I had been slapping him the whole round. So I think "let me just whiff punish with the rising launcher and kind of copy the 22 combos I always see everyone do" and things were suddenly a lot more even, even though I was only doing maybe 30-40% punishes. I imagine, at some point, I'll probably buckle down and actually learn the full combo, but for now I didn't really need that? Like, all I needed was that level 1 damage increase in the tech tree, and now I can move onto other relevant problems.

[@BenjiCakingPanda]

leffen complaing about having tekken not tell him everything is fucking hilarous considering his claim to fame was smash melee, and that game and smash in general has so much shit that it doesnt tell you like lmao

[@CephlonMayngrum]

3d games in general have to many options to learn the game the way leffen want to learn it. It's too dynamic. U gotta get the feel for it b4 u get into the intricate mathematical details

[@IAMOP]

I am here.

[@niwona_]

Melee and Tekken actually have a lot of parallels. They are both essentially legacy games at this point. People that only hold in high esteem a certain fighter may not understand the intricacies to others simply because it's not their brand of depth/difficulty, so they have this limited perspective. On the flip side, when someone tries to cross over into that legacy game, if you are not just in awe of those legacy components, it can probably lead to a lot of frustration if you're not willing to just humble yourself to their brand of learning.

[@rockeversince]

I’d argue that people playing tekken 7 benefit way more from having played previous tekken games than someone playing melee benefits from having played 64. Not to discredit veteran tekken players, but it seems like there’s more game knowledge that you can directly transfer between the games in the series

[@niwona_]

@@rockeversince oh, not what I meant. I was saying that Melee has been around for so long that at this point it's a game of "legacy skill" within itself

[@kholdkhaos64ray11]

Not excusing Tekken's (or any game for that matter) lack of tutorials at all, but I just find it a little weird that he wouldn't like Tekken for that reason when he's played Smash so heavily (as well as other games too but mostly Smash) and Smash barely told you player info outside of basic game mechanics (even then I'd call that a stretch) for like years until Smash 4's loading screens with move and game info. Majority of Smash's info has been held and labbed by players for years like other games. I'm surprised he couldn't find a decent online tutorial that gelled with him.

[@itsallfiction7060]

It's the legacy thing probably. He grew up with it thus he learned as the community learned. Things were simple and grew more complicated over time. If he spent 10 years playing Tekken maybe he would enjoy the game but that's just not how things played out. Melee also only has like 8 viable characters and hitstun and block stun and damage and stuff in smash are fomulaicly implemented, not tailored per move like in most tradtional fighters. But essentially the circumstances of who Leffen is and what the standard is for modern games have changed. The context matters I think.

[@hollowedboi5937]

I mean yeah you gotta learn things one at a time in order to get better at a game and retain long-term information more and more as you play the game. You can’t learn everything at once in a short term without the right guidance. Tekken doesn’t tell you all of the mechanics required to be a good player, or just how to play the game in general. Legacy doesn’t help a newer player understand a game.

[@capefeather]

I tried to play Smash for four years and other fighting games for two, and it was only recently that I really even started to understand something like hit-confirming, one of the most basic things you'd want to teach someone. So many people have the impression that good players have godlike reaction times, even fighting game players themselves. Both fighting games and the FGC have been terrible at teaching newcomers how to play.

[@-nomi.-]

almost no one can chalk up their confirms to reaction time. there are very few players who truly have incredible reaction times. for me, practicing on a random guard dummy helps. you want to practice enough to barely need to think about it. idk man I've been playing about as long as you and we're blessed. if you watch any content you will hear the term hit confirm eventually. if you hear it and don't know it, you look it up. There are guides on KZbin on hit confirms going back ten years. The sfv subreddit has the giefs gym series of guides for people brand new to fighting games since release that's like 60 lessons and teaches hit confirms with drills. i started on 3s and most learning was eating 10-15 losestreaks at the start. but every time i asked a genuine, purposeful question i got a good answer. there were questions that others couldn't answer for me but i learnt the answer in ways that worked for me with time. people have written entire paragraphs for me after i wasted their time for half an hour dropping combos. people will help you as long as you put your first foot forward and show you're trying, because they had to do it too, so i dont think you're on the money here

[@capefeather]

@@-nomi.- I don't know if it's different with SFV, but that hasn't been my experience at all with games I've tried to learn. Subreddits don't have useful pinned threads and are a pain to navigate to begin with due to its format compared to old-school forums. The point I'm getting at is that you aren't taught how to think about hit-confirms. Many resources, if they give you combos in written form at all, often give no context at all to when you might be able to do a combo, or why you'd want to do a particular combo, or how any of this ties in to pressure if the opponent blocks. You go in thinking you're supposed to be able to do things that are actually literally impossible due to reaction time limitations. More broadly, guides tend not to do very well teaching someone how to think about the game, how to learn, what to focus on, what to look for to improve to begin with. You talk about asking for information, but IMO navigating FGC discords just to ask really basic questions shouldn't be a thing at all. Smash is especially guilty of this. There's a whole lot of info on tech, and it's all interesting and a testament to how deep that series is, but it's all useless when you go in. Fighting games are akin to two magicians trying to out-magic each other and you come out with completely wrong conclusions to how to improve because that was part of the opponent's illusion.

[@AndrewRKenny]

It's not exclusive to fighting games, but it's kind of wack to me how games in general can be so incomplete at explaining themselves in terms of raw data built into the game. Sure I can always just "go on the wiki" or whatever, but building these knowledge bases into the games feels like it would add a lot. IDK how much effort that would be though; maybe it's just not "worth it".

[@InamorastraStardustLucille]

this is probably why I've never gotten into tekken and it feels like I never will