🤑 4 Brake Caliper Considerations That Save Time & Money

[@hpa101]

What upgrades do you have planned for your own brake setup? 🦸‍♂ Building a fast car? Get $400 OFF the all inclusive VIP online course package deal: hpcdmy.co/vipy101 🔥Brake System course. Design & optimise your set up. Now 50% OFF your first course: hpcdmy.co/offery101 TIME STAMPS: 0:00 - What Brake Calipers Do 0:34 - Why Upgrade? 0:55 - Master Cylinder Pressure 1:35 - Brake Torque 2:10 - Piston Area Increase 3:22 - Front Upgrade Only 3:40 - Upgrade While Maintaining Balance? 4:15 - Tyre Grip Considerations 4:32 - COG Considerations 4:48 - Brigger Brake Physical Constraints 5:22 - Allow For Flex & Expansion 5:42 - Caliper Mounting 6:07 - Caliper Brackets 6:41 - Caliper Positioning 7:35 - Supplier Recommendations 8:16 - Directional Calipers 8:26 - Brake Bleeding 8:51 - Key Points! 8:58 - 1.) Pedal Feel & Bias 9:09 - 2.) Master Cylinders 9:15 - 3.) Advantages Go Beyond Brake Torque 9:27 - 4.) Mounting 9:42 - BUILD | TUNE | DRIVE 9:55 - Just One Of MANY Modules

[@gordowg1wg145]

I think you hit every possible consideration there - very, very well done! 👍😎 With the wheel fit, few things more annoying when a "brake kit" says it will fit "some" wheels of a given diameter - it's VERY handy when they provide an actual template for that specific application. The caliper drawings help a lot, but don't take into account how the disc is also going to be limited in position on the hub/axle.

[@PreludeDude]

I just installed my Endless front caliper setup on my street car... ME20 pads, I can tell you these things stop like a freight train now. Overkill for street but I want to do more track time with that car. It's not a daily.

[@hpa101]

We run an Endless setup on one of the cars here and are very happy with it too. Our local support for the brand is also very good, the guy is at a lot of events with stock on hand 🤘 I hope you enjoy getting into more and more track time! Not being aggressive enough on the brakes is something many of us struggle with so it's nice to have something that you can have confidence in to push a bit harder when you want to as well - Taz. www.hpacademy.com/blog/3-braking-mistakes-even-the-professionals-monitor-racecraft-freelesson/ www.hpacademy.com/blog/professional-race-driver-vs-normal-driver-data-breakdown-freelesson/

[@JETZcorp]

Might want to reconsider the phrasing on "stop like a freight train". With the exception of satellites, there's probably nothing that stops worse than a freight train.

[@sircefiro]

@@JETZcorp Maybe an aircraft carrier lol

[@NickTaylorRickPowers]

@@sircefiro now I'm wondering what is the most unstoppable force Some say it's Donald Trump's mouth

[@sircefiro]

@@NickTaylorRickPowers Dunno man, a lot of married men may disagree lol

[@jabberwockytdi8901]

The trouble is that people go around slapping on " Big brake kits" , or "upgrades" from another model, for looks or because they think it's going to improve the brake system, without any clue as to the changes they are making to the effective radius and hydraulic ratio. Mucking around with that stuff if you don't know exactly what you are doing is a really bad idea. If you buy a big brake kit make sure you get the confirmation from the vendor that the brake balance of the car is not affected ( and that any rear brake mods are designed to match) . Manufacturers and their suppliers spend 100's of hours testing the brake system and tuning the ABS TCS ESP . Change the brakes or the suspension and you can easily screw the performance of that system up.

[@JETZcorp]

Exactly! This make it a good idea to seek OEM brake parts from a higher model if it exists, and then swap everything including the master cylinder. Not just the front, EVERYTHING. That also makes it easier to get parts down the line, since you don't have to explain the custom setup you have. Just pick GT500 from the drop-down and bam, the correct brake line or whatever is on its way. But if you haven't tried your stock brakes with real-deal pads and fluid yet, that's probably the correct solution for 99% of drivers.

[@hpa101]

100% Do your research, reap the benefits rather than the opposite which is just buying yourself headaches - Taz.

[@hpa101]

@JETZcorp most of the time you will be better off spending the time and money going to aftermarket parts made for motorsport than doing that to be honest. They are made for different use cases and perform as such. There will be some exceptions, but you will only know what they are by educating yourself and comparing the data. From there use case and budget will ultimately decide what is 'best' for YOU and YOUR car, and at least you will understand what compromises you have to deal with if you are financially limited to a certain path 😎 - Taz.

[@JETZcorp]

@@hpa101 Definitely depends on use-case and particulars. If you're stuffing 400whp into an Integra, aftermarket is needed, and abundant. If you're trying to stop the squish on a Dodge Dakota, the aftermarket is limited and the experience base even moreso, but the later models had significantly bigger brakes, and with a little bit of fabrication, it's the only other platform that takes sueprisingly-affordable Viper parts.

[@J.C...]

Clueless much?

[@justintowers8230]

what oem vehicles use 4 pot radial calipers with staggered pistons? The only one i know of is Porshe Boxster S. Is there any other ones out there? What aftermarket companies sell radial calipers with staggered pistons? This is for a 99 Celica SS-IIII and there is no off the shelf kit with thick enough rotors!

[@sircefiro]

For most street cars it's usually for looks lol

[@BrianCrofoot]

This is 100% the reason I’m doing 8 piston AMG/4piston calipers on the front of my R33 GTR. I’m deleting ABS, so hopefully it doesn’t ruin the drivability.

[@iraadams7459]

My reason is parts availability. I can't find a left rear caliper anywhere for my mkiii supra.

[@jabberwockytdi8901]

@@BrianCrofoot Check the piston area(s) of the AMG callipers v.s. the stock callipers ( for fixed calipers like Brembo only count one side to compare to sliding callipers) Then check the radius the centre line of the pistons work at. % changes in those 2 things need to be small and ideally balance out. Then you will have a brake balance close to stock (assuming no crazy pad friction changes) and no issues with brake pedal travel and force. ( But not technical advice do your own research ! )

[@newagetemplar6100]

I can guarantee that 90% of people who upgrade their brakes is just down to the ‘show’ factor . They will never benefit or understand the full potential of a quality brake setup until they actually race the vehicle. This also has the added benefit of sorting out the wannabes/ dreamers and the talentless from the talented .

[@hpa101]

You can have something that looks great but also won't lock the rears and throw you over a traffic island into oncoming traffic without too much effort 😎 - Taz.

[@bigbothoee8617]

Its goose from top gun lololol i upgraded for show then had the problems with bias bigtime under heavy braking i was to invested got a bias adjuster its not 100% but it no longer nosedives ideally need bias box and larger brake master bore

[@RadDadisRad]

I need to upgrade my brakes. I installed a supercharger on my truck and it hits 100mph faster than it went to 60mph stock. Looking at the Roush Alcon kit. It’s a stock upgrade so I will keep my brake balance and abs function.

[@tbas8741]

Do the brakes currently lock the wheels or Trigger ABS? (If so then no brake upgrade will improve Stopping distance at all, will only prevent fade from using brakes too much and not gears to slow down)

[@axelhorneff5077]

@@tbas8741 aaaaand the next guy telling somebody they don´t know to not bother with the brake upgrade, because it doesn´t reduce stopping distance.... No sh*t Sherlock, but if the TE hasn´t just installed the Supercharger for show, they´ll smoke the stock brakes in no time.

[@axelhorneff5077]

Check if you can get better Pads for your stock brakes. If yes, try them together with better braking fluid, before you invest in a big brake kit :)

[@RadDadisRad]

@@tbas8741 no they don’t come close to locking

[@RadDadisRad]

@@axelhorneff5077 I’ve installed heavy duty pads but I’ve cooked my rotors, I’ve already replaced them.

[@rb25detMitch07]

@hpa01 Currently researching front brake upgrade options for my tiguan r. It has the same front calipers as the mk8 golf r, 2 piston 43mm/45mm sliding with a 357mm rotor. Was looking at an off the shelf kit from paragon brakes that uses an alcon car97 6 piston monoblock caliper with 380mm rotors. Seems like a generic caliper used on many applications with a car specific adaptor. Piston sizes in the alcon car97 are 30.2mm, 34.9mm and 38.1mm. I calculate the piston surface area for 1 side of the alcon caliper as 2813.02mm2 and the factory sliding caliper as 3042.63mm2. Is this an acceptable change without requiring MC changes or detrimental effects to braking power, pedal feel and modulation? Will be leaving the rear calipers the same due to the electronic parking brake being integrated into the single piston sliding rear caliper and just upsizing the rear rotor from 310mm to 350mm

[@hpa101]

There is no straight answer here sorry. The front caliper change alone is pretty small, we doubt it would cause any issues with a slightly more aggressive pad. But are you also moving to a larger front disc? Why? Not sure if you really need a bigger rear disc size either. Do you have specific data/reasons for up sizing? Bigger isn't always better as discussed in the video above. At that point many other questions start coming up, like what tires are you using, how stock is the car, what's you're using it for etc to tell you what to do from this question alone. This isn't a 'pay for an answer reply', hopefully the above is helpful in being food for thought alone, but do note a lot of knowledge around understanding this yourself is covered in the brake systems course here, and there is a forum to get help from the tutor as you learn/with your specific project too: hpcdmy.co/offery101 - Taz.

[@CJ5EVOLUTION]

Looking forward to the break system course I purchased at HP Academy

[@hpa101]

I hope you enjoy putting the knowledge into action! - Taz.

[@htc_b]

Whos driving at the end of the video ? Any channel to check this car / driver up ? Thanks

[@hpa101]

That's the HPA staff car. We haven't published too much on it sorry. It's basically just an old TCR class inspired Honda City/Fit with a B18C. It runs a MaxxECU and has been used in some tuning content for that platform too. We're not all as experienced as Connor and Andre etc so it's a chance for those who work behind the camera etc to get hands on with some of the stuff HPA teaches, and we're lucky enough HPA encourages that enough to provide a bit of a budget for us 😎 - Taz. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZizaYd_jJ2sbs0

[@htc_b]

@@hpa101 thanks for the reply It would be awesome to have a video of that car. if the owner is up for it, i think HPA community could only approve to be shown arround what looks to be a nice clean build. Cheers for the reply 🤘🏻

[@hpa101]

@@htc_b HPA owns it, it is for the staff to work on as a team project😎 Once we have the rear end dialled in (it's still pretty rough) we might post a bit more about it as it certainly gets a bit of attention🤘 - Taz.

[@arcanevoid9199]

what would be an acceptable increase/decrease in piston area? have been able to find wilwood calipers that will work for both the front and rear of my fwd celica, which has single piston sliding calipers all round. front increase is +0.36 square inches and the rear is +0.18 square inches, this is going up to 4 piston front and 2 piston rear keeping the oem discs

[@Remenschneider]

Don't forget to x2 the piston area for a sliding caliper. Calculate the % instead of the total area increase

[@jabberwockytdi8901]

​@@Remenschneider No the other way around really, the effective piston area of a fixed caliper is that of one set of pistons, so only count area of one side. There is no difference in the clamping force of a sliding calliper with one say 60mm piston where the piston force is reacted on the other side of the disc by the fingers of the fist and an opposed piston calliper with say 2 pistons each side of the same area each side as 60mm single piston. Think of the base of the 60mm cylinder as the opposing piston.

[@jabberwockytdi8901]

Look at the % change in area for each axle ( only count one side of a fixed calliper) That looks like it will be maybe +10% at the front but a bigger % change at the rear? that can push the brake bias towards the rear. Overall say a 10% increase will give you 10% lower pedal load for any given decel but longer travel, too much increase can give you issues with master cylinder volume reserve with fade and any pad taper wear etc. Typically the step in mastercylinder areas from one size to the next is 12-13% . (23.8 to 25.4 to 26,0) So if you are close to that can consider going up a step if you can find a suitable option from another Toyota that fits your car. Also check the radius of the piston centre lines % diff and frt to rr , shouldn't be a big effect if keeping stock discs but better to check. ( not technical advice DYOR 😄)

[@arcanevoid9199]

@@jabberwockytdi8901 thanks for the info, worked out to be +4.57% F +6.38% R which doesnt sound like much?

[@hpa101]

@arcanevoid9199 It Sounds like a relatively small change that shouldn't cause any major issues. However, It seems like you might end up by shifting the bias rearward (since you are increasing the rear piston area by a greater amount), and that could cause instability, especially if your braking performance increases and you can pull more G's and therefore transfer more load off the rear tires. For a FWD like yours, it might even be worth considering just upgrading the front calipers (only slightly, though) if you are using good tires that will be capable of transferring more load. The benefits of upgrading the rear caliper to a fixed style will be relatively small compared to the front anyway. Just be sure to consider what this all means for your master cylinder and pedal travel - Connor

[@el_kuks]

But thing i questioning most is to how calculate brake force with drum brakes

[@hpa101]

This course is specific to disc brakes sorry - Taz.

[@el_kuks]

@@hpa101 that's clear. In case of changing drum to disc setup piston area seems confusing to me because of how small drum cylinder is

[@hpa101]

@@el_kuks the brake torque from the friction is also a bit more tricky to calculate for drums brakes, so rather than trying to match the torque from the current setup which was designed for completely stock car, I'd recommend analysing the car as it is now or even with future changes in mind and speccing the rear brakes for that. If you are taking our brake course we have a calculator that helps with this, otherwise it'll be available on our website in the future - Connor

[@el_kuks]

Will factory ABS work as intended if with increase of piston area master cylinder would be proportionally increased?

[@axelhorneff5077]

ABS doesn´t care what brakes you have installed. They take the signal from the wheelspeedsensors and if one locks up, it reduces braking pressure.

[@jabberwockytdi8901]

ABS ESP etc. will work but the internals for the valves and the sofware settings are designed to wirk best with the factory set-up , the further you get from the factory brake spec the poorer the control will be and you can start to get excessive interventions or unstability.

[@jabberwockytdi8901]

@@axelhorneff5077 go and learn a bit more about how ABS TCS ESP works before making oversimplistic comments like that.

[@tbas8741]

But a Brake Upgrade wont make you stop faster as the stock brakes already lock up the ABS. You can just stop More Often Before Fade (So only useful on a track, cose if you get brake fade driving on a normal road, you can't drive and need to learn how to use the gearbox.

[@bigdavedownunder]

If you've got abs

[@axelhorneff5077]

There´s plenty of cars that go 150 miles per hour, that you never want to do an emergency stop in at that speed with the stock brakes - this "argument" is utter bs and only applicable if you never go faster than 60...

[@jabberwockytdi8901]

@@axelhorneff5077 er no it's your post that's BS. The manufacturers size the brakes and according to the perfomance and weight of the car , tests like the AMS fade test with multiple full decels from high speed make sure the brakes are OK for road use ( or even track use with stuff like 911 GT3). No car designed in the last 30 years should have any issue stopping from design V-max speed under road use.

[@jabberwockytdi8901]

Even if you don't have ABS the same applies, older non ABS cars were always designed to lock the front axle 1st up to very high decels and even before ABS was introduced 80's and 90's cars would have brake pressure control of the rear axle to make sure the car stayed stable under max decel.

[@axelhorneff5077]

@@jabberwockytdi8901 in theory - yes. In practice - no. There´s a reason why we have so much choice for streetable high performance brake pads...