Leaving Evangelicalism But Not Christianity is Rising Fast | Post Evangelical Collective

[@VulcanLogic]

Giving me hope that we'll make it through the next 15 years or so. More people need to realize that if your pastor is telling you who to hate, you're in the wrong church.

[@davidmosesperez]

indeed. spot on.

[@talkingheadzzz2449]

I am gay, and one of my best friends ever, who is straight, whom I love deeply as a friend, became deeply evangelical after getting married to his evangelical wife. She gradually pushed me away from them and their kids, and we also grew apart politically as they became very radical. His wife told me to stop sending their kids Christmas presents. Eventually they stopped returning my calls and messages because I am gay, even though my friend knew from back when we met. It was terribly painful and sad for me to lose one of my best friends. It has been devastating. I know, and they know, I live a life of high morals and ethics, but it doesn't matter. I am certain their church friends did not approve of our friendship.This podcast has given me hope that someday soon, people will not be separated, divided, alienated, cancelled, and ghosted for things like this. Thank you for sharing this discussion.

[@markrichter2053]

Wow. I’m sorry to hear what you’ve experienced. You articulate it so eloquently. I’ve watched and read so much about the kind of cultic group think that leads to this behaviour. But however much you learn it doesn’t make othering any less painful to experience personally. I have four members of my immediate family who are gay. My sister who had recently become a Christian in her 40s and was studying theology and l beginning to use her leadership skills within the the church we were attending suddenly was told she couldn’t continue in that role because she’s married to a woman. They have had a stable relationship for 18 years and are married. It’s insane! So now the church is interfering in a loving stable relationship. My wife and I, my sister and her wife left the church. I wrote an email to the leadership explaining why this was wrong and that we we’re leaving in protest. My sister and I no longer call ourselves Christians. Our spouses still do. I recently found some fully affirming Anglican congregations locally. I still enjoy attending, although I’m not a Christian theologically. It’s been very healing to talk to an affirming woman priest. It’s a good congregation. But I don’t think my sister or her wife will ever go into a church again.

[@talkingheadzzz2449]

@@markrichter2053 Thank you for sharing this Mark.

[@ZachWLambert]

LOVED getting to be a part of this conversation alongside my good friends David, Keri, and Mike. Thanks again for creating this space, David!

[@RestoreATX]

🙌

[@davidmosesperez]

Zach... I was honored to be with you all. Thanks for such an inspiring conversation, friend.

[@LionelCartwright]

Such a helpful conversation. Articulate and incisive, and reassuring. Thank you all for these shares!

[@TheNewEvangelicals]

Nice job!

[@davidmosesperez]

Thanks Tim. Love following your work. It's important.

[@user-uo3vn7tv4b]

Epic ! So inspiring to witness what you all are doing and being. This is the future. I belong to a UCC church in Oregon that aligns with all your values. I didn’t know such a thing existed until about 2 years ago. Been reading Marcus Borg, Matthew Fox, de Chardin, Karen Armstrong etc. for many years and could never find a home, always a heretic on the outside looking in. So very pleased to see this movement of the Spirit grow humanity towards the light of true loving relationality. This is a very pregnant, epochal time.

[@eesev2017]

Ugh i Love this so much :) to continue on this path like me, highly recommend listening to (and reading) Bart Ehrman. He’s amazing.

[@davidmosesperez]

Awww, thank you so much for watching and the encouraging comment.

[@Sigueme1]

@@eesev2017 Barth Ehrman? 🤣🤣. The guy says a bunch of nonsense … being a Bible scholar doesn’t necessarily make you wise. Wisdom and knowledge are not the same. His criticism of scripture is pathetic in many ways. I wouldn’t even know where to begin to be honest 🤷

[@erichodge567]

​@@Sigueme1, can you help me know a bit better which of Bart's ideas you disagree with and why?

[@Sigueme1]

@@erichodge567 Sure. For starters his criticism of the veracity of the Synoptic gospels is something he’s been debating about for a while. He claims the gospels of Matthew , Mark and Luke often contradict each other. I disagree. No they don’t …he’s assuming the events that happened in all those gospels only happened once and that’s not accurate. But I’ll give you an easy one: He claims there is no way Peter could’ve written the books of first and second Peter (1 Peter and 2 Peter) because he claims Peter was “an illiterate person who was a fisherman and not a scribe and there is no way Peter could’ve written those books” …like OmG 🤣🤣He means the SAME PETER who healed a lame man who couldn’t walk ?? who RESURRECTED people? , who got out of prison while locked up with security guards there making sure he couldn’t escape ? and many other miracles? …that man who CLEARLY had the spirit of God in him? ….that man couldn’t have written two small books with 8 chapters total?? This man is a scholar but he doesn’t understand that the Bible is a very complex collection of translations of ancient literature? …that the Bible is highly ALLEGORICAL? …meaning that a lot of words have multiple meanings and are often not to be taken literally ? Let me give you an example . What are “waters” in the Bible ? This one the Bible itself explains it to us (Revelation 17: 15 ) so clearly “waters” are something more than just “that stuff that people drink when thirsty” , this can be easily verified …just go ahead and read Jeremiah 47: verses 2 to 4 and please tell me …what exactly are “waters” in those verses ?? OBVIOUSLY It’s not literal water so please read it and let me know what you understand the verse to be addressing when it says “waters” ) . If you can understand it you’d be doing much better than Bart Ehrman who IS A SCHOLAR ..🤷 Like I said the Bible is extremely complex and highly allegorical but some scholars like Bart just don’t get it and proceed to take everything the Bible says literally. I can give you many more examples if you’d like. By the way … didn’t Bart Ehrnan dump Christianity and became an agnostic? That’s what I mean. The man thinks he knows the Bible so well he dumped Christianity when what he thought he knew about the Bible, his OWN interpretation didn’t fit his religious beliefs. He started writing anti-religious books such as the infamous “Misquoting Jesus” book where he tries to prove Jesus never called himself “God” and plenty of other nonsense. Sorry I went too long already any questions let me know. God bless 🙏

[@jdnlaw1974]

One step closer to reality and truth. This is progress of a kind.

[@davidmosesperez]

spot on.

[@MarkDouglass-dt9ky]

The churches that these former evangelicals have gone to are all in rapid decline. Amazing you could still find 3 to interview.

[@davidmosesperez]

wow mark... with all due respect, I don't know where you're getting you're information but you are dead wrong. actually, the opposite is true. if anything is declining, it's evangelical biblicism. facts are facts.

[@MarkDouglass-dt9ky]

@@davidmosesperez the mainline Protestant churches have all tanked. The progressivist churches in general have all tanked. Wake up and smell the coffee.

[@chrisfair11]

David I appreciate your willingness to ask hard questions to a group andbjist wade into the difficulty.

[@davidmosesperez]

thank you so much and thanks for watching. more to come.

[@chrisknox8473]

This conversation was so life-giving. I can relate to nearly every thought, experience, comment, and shared value(s). It's so encouraging to see post-Evangelicals finding routes to one another and new communities. Thank you so much for sending up the flare @davidmosesperez

[@trinsit]

My biggest take away is that the tent is shrinking. What people need to understand about that is that this is the natural result of the speed of information rising. People are able to ask questions for themselves now. For all the good you cling to in your religion, it'll never overcome the shadow of corruption and scandal churches have created. Just be a helpful person and treat everyone with Empathy. No book needed.

[@markrichter2053]

“Nobody’s free until everybody’s free!” 🌈

[@randyguess3124]

I wonder if it's actually a good idea to leave a church just because your personal beliefs change. Everyone is at a different stage in their spiritual journey. I deconstructed in 2014 but then I became a born again Christian I think for the first time in 2019. Now I am in a more moderate place in 2024.

[@davidmosesperez]

Sometimes it does taking leaving a rigid environment to then find our way. Thanks for the comment.

[@cipherklosenuf9242]

It’s natural to develop and adapt. I’m deconstructed myself but it was gradual. I gained fellowship and insights along the way. I wish you all the best!

[@davidmosesperez]

@@cipherklosenuf9242 yes, it is natural. agreed. thanks for the comment.

[@gregorypotts4738]

I’m a little confused by this effort to develop a post-evangelical movement from scratch like it is something brand new when there have ALWAYS been alternatives to evangelicalism, including progressive/liberal expressions of the faith.For instance, many Mainline Protestants, Quakers, even certain movements within Catholicism, have been wrestling with similar questions for eons.

[@davidmosesperez]

THANKS for the comment Greg - and you're right and I fully agree. I'm also not attempting to say otherwise. We just seem to be in a surge and a momentous shift - and it's coming from those who used to be well established in evangelicalism. Thanks for watching and the articulate comment.

[@gregorypotts4738]

@@davidmosesperez Thanks for this wonderful program, David. I listen to every episode and a few more than once. So many helpful ideas and information.

[@davidmosesperez]

@@gregorypotts4738 - thanks so much Greg.

[@elizabethjones4066]

"Land mines" "What is the Church?" Thank you for talking about my experience.

[@chrisfair11]

Listened to a clip. Here because of the This Little Corner people.

[@davidmosesperez]

thanks.

[@kennethfurr7397]

Many denominational (and nondenominational!) churches are this: We will give you the framework. Stay within that and you are "loved". Don't question any of this. It is OK to point out the "faults" in those other denominations though. Stay within the lines! You better stay within the lines!!! All of this within a culture of many that don't even know how radical it is to say "Jesus is Lord", what that actually meant in New Testament times.

[@timwilkins2008]

How does one connect Enlighten Up - an emerging progressive base community with the post evangelical collective? I would also love to connect with others who are re-imagining Christian faith. I have been deconstructing for many years and reconstructing a very different faith perspective. I found Spero Dei, Commons Church Calgary, & Gracepointe Church in Nashville that seem to resonate with where I envision this community heading . I guess what I would like is to find some advice and mentoring.

[@davidmosesperez]

Tim that is a great question. Keri, the woman included in the interview is the director of the Post Evangelical Collective, and she would love to hear about your community and have you connect in. You can reach her at: [e-mail]. And also here: www.postevangelicalcollective.org/contact. I hope this helps, cheers to you, and thanks for watching.

[@timwilkins2008]

@@davidmosesperez Thanks! I have reached out to her. I would also like to connect with others who are already doing this type of work to learn and connect with professionally.

[@davidmosesperez]

@@timwilkins2008 - that's the best place to start and it will lead you to a ton of like-minded peeps.

[@timwilkins2008]

@@davidmosesperez Thanks.

[@jesusheals-ca]

There are two realities, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Thinking there are good people and bad people, moral people and immoral people... Your blind and deaf and eating and dying living out a false reality. Give up on everything else and turn to God who is your Father and my father. He has healed you, past tense, but without fresh eyes its impossible to enter this reality. Jesus is the way, truth, life and none enter except through him. I'm absolutely not talking about joining a religion, I'm talking about completely unplugging from your false identity and false reality. I recommend Ted Dekker's Forgotten Way book.

[@JoseEduardo1594-]

I think as culture became more progressive the church got scared and tightened their grip making the tent smaller

[@diamondsndregs]

This was very refreshing. I could see my own journey in many of these stories, and I learned some new things, too. Like David, I "converted" to Evangelical Christianity as an older teen, and like Keri, I had to navigate my "deconstruction" (I didn't know that term at the time) as a woman, which took me down similar paths of rediscovering my intuition and connecting with my body, etc. And yes, the process was "excruciating" (David's word). My story differs in that my pastor led our entire church out of Evangelicalism at the turn of the century, opting to join a branch of the Anglican church. However, the seeds of fundamentalism continued to fester within me, and I also didn't thrive in the Anglican model. I stayed in it longer than I should have with the hope of making the church better, and because of the ways my entire life and that of my family's was enmeshed, but I had very little effect. By the time I left the church in 2015, I had been out of Evangelical circles for over a decade, but I still had a lot of the conditioning, which took me years to untangle from, and in some ways I will probably always be working to free myself from. My path has led me to finally acknowledge that I am not a Christian by the church's standards, yet I am okay with that because I don't think the church has really followed Christ's way very well since at least the time of the Nicene Council, when women's input was officially shunned. My authentic spirituality aligns better with artistic, shamanic, indigenous, and pagan practices. Lately, it has been a study of Mary Magdalene that has renewed my interest in Christ. Talk about a controversial figure! If the church could have included the wisdom of women all along, the way that Christ seemingly did, we probably would have avoided so much schism - and witch hunting. I am out of the church and Christian circles, but my marriage of 30 years weathered the transition and is stronger for it., and I agree with Mike that many things I gained from my years in the church have value. Love led me into the church, and love led me back out of it. I am grateful every day for the incredible freedom I have found, my renewed connection to the Creator, to Divine Love, and to be able to practice my spirituality in the way that suits me best. I wish the same for everyone. Thank you for hosting this, David. The CEP sounds like a good work. Blessings to you and these panelists.

[@markrichter2053]

Wow. Thanks for your beautifully and eloquently described transition. I relate everything you’ve said except that I’m male and that I’m not sure that there’s a creator who us seperate from the Universe. I think the universe us conscious and evolving. But my ideas are d as Kai evolving. I still meet with Anglicans at beautiful “thin” places that had ave been prayed in for thousands of years, I help in a nature reserve and I’ve just joined Celtic Worship in the Wild, which is lgbtqia affirming. Although I don’t identify as queer or Christian I attend an affirming communion service.

[@MrJosephholbrook]

I have enjoyed this and I am encouraged by much of what you say, but I have to observe that you have your own distinctive (Insider?) vocabulary ("spaces") which is a bit off putting. However, I suppose that is inevitable for any social group.

[@davidmosesperez]

thanks for the input Joseph. language is certainly is a way we describe our experiences, and what we use to guide our new direction, but we definitely don't want it to alienate or dismiss anyone. your critique is noted and thank you for it.

[@darrylsanders6056]

Is the collective only for those from evangelical experience and/expression ?

[@elizabethjones4066]

Shrinking tent. Exactly!

[@chrisfair11]

Man... So much to say... Post like this are such bad forums for discussion though.

[@Brutuscomedy]

You could have kept enjoying a totally peaceful planet 6,000 years ago with vegan dinosaurs even but Eve, ya had to take a fruit and share it with Adam. Why'd you ruin everything!? 😆

[@Tuck943]

Shedding the paganism of the penal part of PSA does not equate or require the embracing of the religion of wokism (another form of embracing paganism), which some of these guest speakers have apparently done.

[@tygulick]

Me too.

[@wthomas5697]

My mother was an evangelical nutjob. What a mess.

[@MarkDouglass-dt9ky]

And she produced you, an even nuttier job.

[@WienerBrigadier]

Interesting compilation of devout followers of Christ , not sure what to take away from it...

[@biblebadcopycatofcuneiform8210]

Listening to you people is like thinking back to my personal experiences. Jesus failed me...many, many, many times. 'He' also failed my family members. What do I mean by failed? I mean did not reply in any way whatsoever. I am very, very keen listener, and observer. I started really kicking that into being when I was 14....and read the Bible in totality. By 16, I had it memorized, all the ugly stuff as well as the sweet and lovely. The Bible is a failure, so is Jesus, and so is the God of the Bible. Doctors are really good at what they do, and helped me with some stuff. I don't praise Jesus for what Doctors have done. That makes zero sense to me. Doctors learn from Science and exploration. I have held the hand of many Doctors and shared how much I honestly appreciate them as well as Nurses. I've done the deep dive into history on the Bible, and it's really dark..and not filled with Joy. The Jesus moments that people say so often, are what Buddha said many times in the past. However, there is something else that's extremely interesting that I located. Cuneiform Tablets. The Bibles are copycats of the past. I changed my life, and my views because of also dive deeply into Cuneiform. WOW! We've been lied to in our religions for so long.

[@winniepuuh7895]

So funny when cult members try to outdo each other with their ignorant fairy tales .... 😂😂

[@trinsit]

Fanfiction will make people do crazy things

[@sanjeevgig8918]

ANYONE can say they are a Xtian. And ALL Xtians point to other Xtians and claim "those" Xtians are FAKE. These Ex-Evangelicals are basically riding the once-saved-always-saved concept for the the time being. LOLZ

[@mariabotero7597]

Christianity is not a religion of individualism. That is not the teaching of Jesus Christ. Don’t call yourself a Christian if you think you can leave far from a community far from your brothers.

[@VulcanLogic]

Christianity comes with a tradition of asceticism and eremitic monasticism that goes back to at least the 3rd century. Even if you ignore that tradition, you're not the gatekeeper of who is or is not a Christian.

[@mariabotero7597]

@@VulcanLogic monastic life has a great role in Christianity. Universal prayer. This is deeper than it appears. Have a good day

[@ehenningsen]

​@@mariabotero7597I'd rather burn for an eternity than bend a knee to a monster of a god you declare.

[@johntobey1558]

All this is, is emergent church 2.0 (rob bell). Nothing new here new heresey, for a new time.

[@ChristianCatboy]

You get a kick out of calling people heretics, eh? Torquemada would know about that.

[@eesev2017]

curious to know what you actually think, because it sounds like you’ve gone through a similar experience

[@shanewilson2484]

Jesus loves you

[@ehenningsen]

I would rather burn than feel compelled to bend a knee to a monster

[@markrichter2053]

Your sclerotic coalescence is an ungulate and taciturn snot bubble, a coagulation of reprobate knee scratchings and a flatulent periconbobulation of ultracrepidarian pimple squeezings.