Led Zeppelin and Cultural Appropriation

[@FDSignifire]

Sad but unsurprising that you have this many dislikes on the video. This was a ton of fun to contribute to. Thanks for letting me be a part of it.

[@archithbinoj24-89]

R.i.p. dislikes

[@anarchie1337]

Really enjoyed what you said . Thank you for adding your voice and perspectives. I totally binged all your content and ended finding more creators from watching your videos

[@byoutifulmonster]

How can you see the dislikes? Lol

[@joyce8120]

your commentary really added a lot to the video, its sad to see how many people simply ignore and refuse to listen to the points made

[@FDSignifire]

@@byoutifulmonster that's good question... idk maybe cause I'm a creator🤷🏿‍♂️

[@iSkully99]

Jimi Hendrix's death was probably one of the biggest changes to rock history. Imagine if he hadn't died and joined the then forming ELP. I think progrock would've been an entirely different genre,

[@HYDRODUST67]

Hendrix was going to work with miles davis

[@crookedbraincrookedbrain9874]

Maybe u should listen to something from 70s that isn't prog,like kraut..

[@Yakkymania]

I can barely imagine Hendrix in ELP, but the live shows would be chaos. Burnt guitars and flying pianos.

[@bradrehn1007]

Just a note...Hendrix was scheduled to record with John Mclaughlin, Miles Davis, Larry Young, Gil Evans, within a year of his untimely death. Considering the professional and artistic respect he received from fellow musicians and composers, music may have taken a much different journey had those projects come to fruition. Zeppelin is held in account, more than most because they gave no artistic or $$ credit to the writers and performers they interpreted

[@mikibishop1516]

@@bradrehn1007 well, I hear you, but they didn't actually owe anything to anyone for the amazing art they produced. What has been happening for.... damn... 20+ years is guys like Chuck Berry being welcomed on stage with the rest of the rockers, and others black artists, too, being treated like royalty. There has been monetary compensation paid to some black artists, but I don't know much about that. Even Albert Lee, the great and amazing guitarist from the C&W scene is welcome onstage with the likes of Eric Clapton, Tom Petty, Neil Young, Roger McGuinn, and more. I really don't care for the shoddy, negative view of rock and roll of those looking back from now with their cancelling eyes and critical theory ears. They know nothing.

[@SyncrisisVideos]

I was gonna comment that Polyphonic just did a great piece on Led Zepplin, but you're Polyphonic, and this is another piece.

[@christiangarza8122]

Jk/ I thought this dude is ripping off Polyphonic

[@DefaultName-fs8vj]

Just want to add what could be considered a layer into the discussion about Zep. These guys were born during World War II. Their country was being invaded and bombed (unlike the U.S). Post WWII in England was pretty bleak. They had a long recovery following the war full of economic strife and uncertainty. I wonder if this contributed to their youth becoming more aligned with American "black" music?

[@georgelumsden4484]

Keith RIchards has talked about this. Britain was still rationing its food to the public well up until the mid 1950's. all of the guys who came from the British invasion were either poor or impoverished at some point during their lives, and their comments on the subject of Black American music was that it was more meaningful to them and was depicting their experience. the fact you bring up is overlooked in this video

[@georgelumsden4484]

@@PhantomOutlaw its a combination of all those things. Britain was poor, destroyed and economically unstable as mentioned above, accessibility was another big factor thats why it was so significant when Bill Wyman had a bass and amp, which was VERY uncommon at that time. Most of these guys were rellegated to skiffle or busking

[@whitespyder9]

This is a really good point.

[@clinthosking6444]

I have seen an interview with Roger Daltrey where he specifically states this. He and Keith Richards have also spoken of the shock they felt witnessing the treatment of black people in the States.

[@dodie5466]

@@clinthosking6444 wow

[@thiagoroque2447]

This is a great video. However, I think it disregards the fact that Zeppelin, just like The Beatles, The Who and Rolling Stones, were British. Not to say the British society of the 50s and 60s were not racists towards Black peoples, but black music was more widely distributed to working class children. The Beatles did not cover little Richard or Chuck Berry because they wanted to white wash rock n' roll but because they, just like so many other great British rock bands, genuinely loved and admired those artists and they always made that very clear. It is how art evolves, you start by "stealing" from people you admire and with time you develop your own style. The foundations of The Rain Song, Stairway To Heaven and The Song Remains The Same can for sure be drawn from blues and jazz, but it is original nonetheless.

[@paoloc.8055]

Finally, someone with common sense and no blind wokeness

[@reece8224]

This comment >>>>>

[@DerekDerekDerekDerekDerekDerek]

Yes britain was wayyyyy less racist. When lynching was still a thing in the US black amricanas where starting lives and having children with white people during ww2

[@jdemarco]

Actually, the Beatles did cover a few Little Richard and Chuck Berry tunes...

[@BasilHayden]

yes, there is something in the creative world regarded as influence. A lot of the British bands basically took riffs, progressions, but that is the nature of the blues. Jimi also played blues based rock and had the same demographic in the audience. I think you'd find more white people at R&B shows. Why is this being discussed as a thing??

[@ruthjohnson4380]

Led Zeppelin instructed me about the Blues. They introduced me to Robert Johnson, Muddy Waters and Blind Willie Johnson. I have seen interviews when they give credit to these musicians but unfortunately, they didn’t on their albums initially. Nobody’s Fault But Mine, especially in the intro is Blind Willie’s but who can argue that second part is Led Zeppelin’s. Great content!

[@zosomoso]

Nobody’s Fault But Mine was credited from the first pressing. Every cover that was recorded from LZ3+ was always credited. The only 4 instances where they did not initially credit we’re on the first two albums.

[@mcswordfish]

Led Zeppelin, Cream, The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, The Who: all these bands that took The Blues and led to the evolution of Stadium Rock have one thing in common (other than being White) - They're British (I would say all English, but Cream's Jack Bruce ensured some Celtic representation, as did Rory Gallagher) These British bands weren't taking Black music to sell to White people - they took American music to sell to British people. This happened quite literally with Jimi Hendrix - he was ignored in his native land until he was embraced here. It would be churlish to claim that Britain didn't/doesn't have a problem with racism, but it's different from racism in the USA. In the 1960s, the UK wasn't a decade years from Jim Crow, or barely a century from a civil war over slavery. Furthermore, post-war UK (and Europe as a whole) was different from post-war USA. Even in the 60's there was many ruins from the war, with neighbourhoods destroyed and families enduring losses (I don't think it's a coincidence that Ginger Baker and Roger Waters are the two angriest men in British rock and both had lost their fathers in the war). 1950s and 1960 Britain was a bleak place, and the mood of Blues music fit the mood of the people here, even if the specifics of the lyrics are less applicable I'm not trying to invalidate in any way the points made in this video. However, I feel this is very important context that was completely missed. I enjoyed he interviews in this video, but I feel it would very much have benefitted from hearing the voices of Black Brits in addition to Black Americans.

[@patmann9363]

That is spot on.

[@berlineczka]

Yeah, I think you tackled something very important. From a European perspective, many of the racial tensions and cultural differences in the USA are not that visible. In Europe it is not race, but rather ethnicity the main aspect of differentiating people (which may be discriminatory or not), and the exploitation of black people is rather addressed within the post-colonial rather than racial discourse. In result, we are not trained/sensitized to look at the USA in terms of race, so we do not do it. The culture that is coming from the USA to Europe is perceived as "American", and the intricacies of racial differentiations within the US-American cultural landscape are often invisible to us. . When I was a kid growing in a Central European province, I didn't know blues was black music. For me, it was American music. I did not know that country music was white. I thought it was simply rural/Southern type of American music. It took me years to even spot the curious whiteness of rock music (coming from a predominantly white country, it was likely that white was the default and therefore "invisible" skin colour to me), or that R&B was not simply part of pop music, but distinctively black genre of music in the USA. When I was a kid, Eminem was big, so I never realized that white rappers are an exception and rap is black music. I know these things now, but it took years of exposure and learning to even see it. Black American music is simply American music to many people outside of USA.

[@alejandrogonzalez5232]

@@berlineczka that's the problem. The average music consumer does not know but the musicians knew. So they need to credit the culture of music they are influenced by. That what this is all about. Musicians taking music of other cultures and not crediting them is cultural appropriation.

[@keepinitkawaii]

@@berlineczka i guess as a born American who has lived in Scotland France and currently Germany, its a little confusing because i was always stereotyped as a black American. "You sing jazz well because you're black" " you dance well because you are black" "you do xyz well because you are black". So it was always confusing as to why these stereotypes were acknowledged but NOT the cultural importance and impact of certain black american cultural phenomenons/ achievements. Its not that any of these genres "belong" to black people specifically, they are free for anyone to partake in just like i enjoy indian music and have also participated in it but i acknowledge that indian music was born and developed through certain shared cultural experiences. I feel like with black american music, the world acknowledges the cultural experiences (i.e slavery, segregation) but wont acknowledge the actual byproducts (many genres of music that were developed as a direct reaction to what people were feeling during those times.) The Blues was developed as a way to cope with slavery but at the same time it has nothing to do with black people? It just confuses me a little. "You sing jazz well because you're black" but at the same time jazz isnt considered a "black" genre or apart of the black cultural experience to Europeans apparently. I guess what i dont get is why one would stereotype someone based on music but then also not understand how that same music has strong cultural ties to said person or their community. I get that racial tensions are not and have not been the same in Europe as I've lived in a few European countries as well as America. But from my perspective it seems many people will acknowledge one thing but choose to not accept the other. And i understand that to the outsiders perspective, there is only one culture of America, but that just isnt the case or else there wouldn't be such division, no? Culture is usually born out of experiences and clearly not everyone in America has the same history or experiences so cultural achievements will vary

[@marcmcfinn7470]

Thank you! I tried to explain this, though less eloquently in another comment. The British aspect is crucial to this story. Also missing is the fact that rock and roll was all but dead in America when the British version began taking shape. And that groups like the Stones and the Animals saw themselves as blues bands in the beginning. Theirs was a path of musical purity, misaligned with the pop aspirations of groups like the Beatles or Herman's Hermits.

[@theycallhimwoods]

Little Richard's pain was not only rooted that he was black man in the mid-20th Century American South, his pain also had to do with his being a poly-sexual being from an evangelical background. Led Zeppelin, and the Beatles, Rolling Stones etc. came from a very class structured society and the blues part of rock & roll/rhythm & blues spoke to their lower class status in that society (they were not American) - the celtic roots of country music, which fused with the blues to create these genres between Appalachia and Missippi Delta in the 20's, 30's and 40's to create American Rock & Roll - on their first American tours Zeppelin frequently covered Rock-A-Billy artist Johnny Burnette & the Rock & Roll Trio's "Train Kept A Rockin'" - I have never heard anyone accuse Johnny Burnette of cultural appropriation, although he appropriated an equal amount from race records as Louis Jordan appropriated from Country & Western artists like Bob Wills & his Texas Playboys. One of the big "threats" of Rock & Roll was that it brought the races together, which is something which the American elite viewed as a Socialist Plot. Sam Phillip's Sun Records stable did not just consist of Elvis Presley, Roy Orbison, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins and Johnny Cash, he also signed Howlin' Wolf, Sonny Burgess, James Cotton and Junior Parker. The Beatles did not just cover the Isley Brothers and Smokey Robinson, they covered Buddy Holly and the Everly Brothers, too. One of the most interesting things about Led Zeppelin's 1973 Madison Square Garden concerts is that on the exact dates when they occured, 120 miles north in Watkin's Glen, NY, what was for a long time the largest amount of people to gather for an American Rock & Roll Festival were attending Summer Jam; featuring the Allman Brothers Band, the Grateful Dead and the Band, while photographs of that concert are just slightly more diverse than the Song Remains the Same it bears in mind to remember that with gate crashing Watkin's Glen was too many a "free" concert the cost of traveling deep into the Catskills during an OPEC embargo must be factored into that price, where as Zeppelin's last three American concerts of 1973 were able to be scalped at far greater prices than their $7.50 listed price; the lack of diversity at both of these shows could partially be blamed on ecoomics.

[@zackpumpkinhead8882]

That's the thing, innit? Economics.

[@robertmounger407]

Also the fact that so called White Rock and Roll sounded to much like, well, White Rock and Roll and therefore to Blacks it sounded like watered down Rock and Roll!

[@tyishamurphy5518]

this reminds me a lot of the discourse surrounding 'young Americans' by David Bowie. A lot of people argue about how he appropriated the Philadelphia soul sound at the time, but I think what a lot of people forget is that he described it as "plastic soul" - he knew he wasn't going to sound like all the other artists he was inspired by, but he created that record as a tribute to the sounds that he loved

[@MalMotorDedo]

Bowie's way of doing soul was very different to LZ's way of doing blues rock. Bowie presented the YA era as a novelty, deeply understanding soul was more than just a way of making music. On the other hand, LZ really never cared (or at least we don't know if they did/do)

[@TonyHightower]

Bowie also made a point of citing his sources. He wasn't always perfect at shouting out his influences, but he was sure better at it than most white pop stars who were using black music as part of their vocabulary.

[@jakethet3206]

Actually, that’s nothing like this. Bowie specifically acknowledged what he was doing, and this video is more about artists who DON’T do that.

[@petermoore7796]

Bowie didn't steal songs

[@campbellpaul]

@@jakethet3206 An artist doesn't have to do anything. People have a right not to buy the art lol

[@brentjohnson5171]

I know I'm about a year late to this party, but I wanted to tell you how much I appreciated this video and the nuance with which your interviewees made their points. I'm a white blues guitarist, and have been more than half of my life. Over the years I have had the privilege of performing with most of the people whose records I loved growing up everybody from BB King, Buddy Guy, Otis Rush, Lonnie Baker Brooks, Hubert Sumlin (and all the surviving members of Howlin' Wolf's band), multiple artists that played with Muddy Waters, Clarence Gatemouth Brown, and many many more. I had the honor of being the backing band for Eddie Shaw, Otis Clay, and Redd Velvet as the first two were bejng inducted into the blues hall of fame and Redd was performing Bessie Smith as Bessie was inducted that night as well. I have always been a staunch anti-racist and have always done my best to make clear that as much as I love this music, it isn't mine. The black artists that were the architects of this music granted me the honor of sharing this music with me, and I always do my best to make sure that I tell my audiences where this music came from, why it came from the people, times and places that it did. I am extremely careful about the material I cover from other artists because there is nothing more distasteful to me than seeing a white artist perform blues songs that are about a part of the black American experience that is totally outside their understanding. Recently there has been a strong backlash against white blues artists and many people have blanketed all of us as thieves. While I absolutely understand that if it where not for the black men and women that created this music it wouldn't exist at all, I also know that Muddy Waters had many white musicians in his band, as have most of the post-war black blues artists, much in the same way that many black legends of Jazz have had white musicians in their bands. For awhile my band had a residency at the New Orleans location of BB King's blues club ( I am from New Orleans), towards the end of our run there I had begun performing an old blues song called "She Wants to Sell My Monkey" which has been performed by numerous artists but one of the best performances was by BB and it was kind of a way for me to attempt to honor him after his passing. One night after doing the song I noticed one of the cooks seem to take great objection to me performing that song and it absolutely crushed me. I went to talk to him at set break and we had a discussion about how in the context of the song the phrase "she wants to sell my monkey" being about a man troubled because his significant other has decided to become a prostitute, that the monkey he is upset about is between this woman's legs. We hashed it out and we were all good for the rest of my tenure there but it caused me to think really hard about what I was doing, to the point that I actually stopped performing completely for a couple of years because it occurred to me that however unintentionally I might have been hurting people just by playing music I love. Eventually I got to sit down and have a conversation with an artist named Corey Harris who in my opinion is one of the best musicians currently on the planet and I asked him what he, as a black man, thought about what I was doing. His reply was that if I was coming from a place of love and genuine appreciation, making sure that I was employing black artists, celebrating black artists, making sure that I used my platform, small as it may be, to try to elevate and promote black blues artists that are playing blues music currently, and essentially that I wasn't "doing more harm than good" that in his opinion I was doing just fine. It is still something I struggle with because the last thing I want to do is harm the people and culture that have given me so much, have invited me in and treated me with respect and have been generous in their friendship. Led Zeppelin absolutely plundered the Willie Dixon catalogue and had to be sued by him before they gave him the credit due to him, as well paying him for profiting off of his work. At the same time I know that when Hubert Sumlin died Keith Richards paid for his funeral, his headstone, his memorial concert, and Hubert told me many times how grateful he and Wolf were to some of the white rock and roll bands of the sixties and seventies for helping to bring their music to more young white people because that was the point at which they really started making money. I have had conversations with BB in which he expressed similar thoughts. I didn't have the chance to know Freddie or Albert King but the members of their bands said much the same. White people absolutely did build their careers on the foundation that those black men and women laid for them, and some most definitely did plunder it in the worst way, but many did not. I was also amazed at how many of the older performers absolutely loved old country and western music and would happily play Hank Williams, Ernest Tubb, Gene Autry, Hank Snow and many others. In some ways it seems to me that even though the struggle they endured and crimes committed against them by white people were unimaginably cruel, dehumanizing, often even murderous, in a way that we don't see now (this is not to say that these challenges don't still exist, just that they don't exist in the same way), they weren't as polarized about this as we are in modern times. Some of the stories they told me about the things they endured growing up in early twentieth century Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Texas, and to an extent the entire country made my skin crawl and sometimes brought me to tears at the unimaginably cruel ways in which they were treated, and the way in which it was so accepted by the society of the day. This has turned into a rambling rant and I'll stop here, but once more, thank you, and thank you for calling attention to these two creators. I'll be listening to both of them from now on.

[@jamesedwards2869]

Thank you for this comment, as an aspiring practitioner of ragtime and blues (specifically Gary Davis) I have always felt deeply that the history and the music are bound up together and just because some artists chose to steal that music, it doesn't mean that wider culture doesn't need to hear those old voices and old songs. Really appreciated your perspective 🤠

[@zackpumpkinhead8882]

Crazy dude, rock on!

[@dieterhorvat5176]

As a huge fan of Little Richard, The cherry-picked points about him force me to reconsider how valid any argument in this video actually is. Not only a black artist in the 50s, Richard was Gay and struggled with acceptance (of his sexuality) -especially within his religious community and upbringing- throughout his entire life. To reduce that to “oh he had to dress androgynous because he was black” is an insult to the man and artist. Obviously this is a good and thoughtful vid but that irked me so hard

[@rightweaponry908]

Thank you! Same.

[@ilyanagalen9320]

Agree, this video is heavily spun to make Zeppelin look like racist stealers of black music. Anyone that knows anything about music knows this is flatly untrue.

[@lancewalker2595]

It's not Led Zeppelins fault for being capable of being inspired by "black artists", the question that's always left unspoken concerning the subject of "cultural appropriation" is why the hell "black artists" feel obliged to reject anything and everything that may be considered "white". The source of this sort of racial segregation IS NOT coming from "white culture", it's coming the "black culture" that defines itself in primary opposition to "white culture". Fuck anyone who would presume to criticize Led Zeppelin for having the audacity to NOT be racially conscious. God damn, the racial baggage that continues to plague American culture is absolute cancer, if anything, that is the reason why the most successful musicians of the 20th century were British... because British artists have absolutely zero inclination to be so parochial and small-minded as to adopt artistic limitations predicated on such a ridiculously frivolous consideration as skin color.

[@Frodojack]

Exactly.

[@zackpumpkinhead8882]

He should bring that up! Thank you I'll look into that a little more. It seems like there's lmore story still

[@georgesgauthier]

10:51 “Cultural appropriation is when you try to be something that you’re not by hiding behind someone else’s culture. When there’s that lack of authenticity.” As you rightly point out at 22:20 , by that definition, Led Zeppelin did not appropriate black culture. They did not hide behind anyone and they certainly didn’t lack authenticity. 19:22 “That’s what cultural appropriation is...its how the history books are written by the dominant class and the dominant class gets to choose who really made history.” I really appreciated the way you sought out the voices and opinions of people of colour. However your premise that Zeppelin’s success “Kept black communities from doing the same. Intentionally or not, Zeppelin played a big part in us missing out in two generations of potentially incredible black rock” is unfounded. Of course, that isn’t your fault because you, like many other well intentioned individuals, operate within a misguided paradigm. The problem is that the very notion of cultural appropriation is fundamentally flawed. Even if you record the exact same song, but make it your own, you aren’t stealing or diminishing the original. When Stevie Wonder covered the Beatles he arguably made “We Can Work it Out” a better song. Same goes for Jimmi Hendrix culturally appropriating Jewish American culture when he covered “All Along the Watchtower”. White people playing “black music” does not make Chuck Berry cease to exist, it does not erase African-American culture, it expands upon it. Culture with a capital “C” does not spring out of the void, every culture is built on the influences of others. We would not have Led Zeppelin without Muddy Water and we wouldn't have Muddy Waters without Robert Johnson, but we wouldn’t have him without the guitar, which we wouldn’t have without the western traditions of the lute and chromatic scale influenced by the Moorish 4 string oud. Unfortunately, the idea that rock music was stolen is therefore misguided. Culture, unlike many other things of value, is not a commodity with a single user. Culture can’t be stolen, it can only be propagated. It is the same lack of understanding which leads certain conservative mindsets to think that immigrants steal jobs. More people in an economy diversifiy economic potential. There aren’t a finite number of jobs just as there isn’t a finite amount of culture which only one ethnicity can monopolize at any given time. The more people participate, the more economies and cultures grow. What cultural appropriation is trying to convey is systemic racism. Unfortunately the term is misleading and misguided and it makes it harder to understand the mechanism of repression. Culture, when disseminated openly, is not a tool of oppression, it is a means of liberation. Fundamentally, Culture is not a zero-sum game. It cannot be stolen or appropriated. An individual piece of art can be stolen. If Led Zeppelin had stolen a Son House tune and passed it off as their own, that would be intellectual property theft, not cultural appropriation. What white societies did to Native Americans/First Nations or to Africans and blacks or to Jews and Arabs is irredeemably reprehensible. The depraved slaughter and enslaving of millions stole lives, not Culture. Thankfully, despite the horrors of racism and repression, Culture lives on.

[@leaveitorsinkit242]

Exactly. As long you give credit where credit is due… which Led Zeppelin did most of the time (and most artists in this media climate do nowadays… for fear of this sort of thing). Honestly… without the contributions of white musicians… blues (or any other form of BAM music) would’ve never expanded past its grassroots origins. That’s just simply a fact.

[@Toasty283]

Fuckin’ well said homie.

[@VesperEm]

What this comment misses is that while culture itself cannot be stolen, the cultural expression of a certain art certainly can be dominated and stolen. The colonization of jazz in particular is notable; the artists who made the most money off of the New Orleans sound in the 20s, 30s, and 40s were not its originators; they were the white adopters who were taken with jazz. The issue is not that white musicians were allowed to play jazz, it is that black musicians were largely not allowed to profit from it.

[@stefke5862]

If you look at the black artists in those days they got the exposure and recognition through and loved to play with the white artists. Funny how non musicians have a problem with it as if it’s their music. Music brought people more together than anything. Bands like Living color, bad brains etc. did exactly the same with white punk/rock music and there is hardly any black music left without electronics

[@randomjunkohyeah1]

How did you write all this within an hour of the video being posted?

[@johnperry6874]

Elvis was not ‘safe’. He was hated by parents, filmed from the waist up, and was actually kept from recording far heavier black music. Like Robert, and so many other English artists, they genuinely loved that music, and it’s catharsis. It spoke to a deeper part of your Human. That groups like The Rolling Stones preferred to sing blues music had nothing to do with stardom in the beginning. It was genuine love and on many occasions, these Musicians were scholars of the Blues. Greg Allman would always say ‘ there is no such thing as British Blues. Theres only The Blues.” All that being said, countless Blues Pioneers saw little reward for what they gave to American Music. Most American Music has its origins in Black Music, save for the Elizabethan square rhythmic aspect that English Music recapitulated. Peter Gabriel loved Otis Redding and Sam & Dave, but you have to dig to find it. But it spoke to him in a deep way. Disco, arguably, was not a white phenomenon. It started as early as Barry White mid seventies era R&B when an engineer decided that 120BPM was the standard for radio dance beats. The Bee Gees had been searching for themselves for years in the wreckage of late 60’s early 70’s post psychedelia. They approached R&B in an honest way, and had no idea it would become such a monetary goldmine. Rarely did many classic albums come to be with an anticipation they were preordained for success. My Parents were great lovers of Soul, Motown and R&B / Dance Music. My Mom saw James Brown when I was still in her womb. My Dad auditioned for Stevie Wonder. It took years for them to like The Beatles :) Thank you for this work. It is stimulating and important discussion.

[@theycallhimwoods]

Elvis, as John Trudell points out in "Baby Boom Che", may not have "exactly" been "white" either; kzbin.info/www/bejne/h4m2eYSwq6mgbac

[@awsome1605]

I think when he speaks of safe “artists” he’s talking more-so the likes of Pat Boone than Elvis

[@clydekimsey7503]

Yes, completely agree

[@12814693]

Elvis is white end of story

[@shanejive6292]

@@soarinpenguinlive6372yeah Presley started with rockabilly. A mix of country & rnb.

[@cremetangerine82]

12:44 - Yeah, another black Nirvana fan! To Kurt Cobain’s credit, his cover of Leadbelly’s “Where Did You Sleep Last Night?” shakes me to my bone marrow. P. S. - I really think the Carpenters are “whiter” in terms of sound, but there is a ton of soul in Karen’s voice and she duetted with Ella Fitzgerald.

[@SydChapter24]

Janis Joplin (who inspired Robert Plant's and Stevie Nicks' singing style,) proudly shared she was inspired by Bessie Smith, a black woman who was a famous blues singer. In 1970, Joplin bought a headstone for Smith's grave that read, "the greatest Blues singer in the world will never stop singing."

[@harpua737]

you could also make the argument that Zeppelin offered a gateway for a new audience for the original blues artists. I know when I first got into Zeppelin I dug deep into the roots of the songs and discovered a wide range of blues musicians and music that I was not aware of.

[@SkywardSpoon]

I have been trying to sort out my thoughts on this. Overall I think that this is a fine video and I really appreciated the inputs by Don from The Most Unruly and F.D. Signifier. However I do have a couple of issues, first is that while this is a black lens, it is also american. This matters because you are using Led Zeppelin as the example, Led Zeppelin are an English band and the USA is a massive exporter of culture. The bleaching of black music starts within the local environment by local government and businesses. By the time the music is exported globally significant damage is already done, if the example had have been someone like Elvis who was american the argument that it is cultural appropriation would be stronger as it is, and as you point out at the end, it may simply just be an evolution of the music. My second issue is the idea that great pain leads to great art. That is just bullshit, it doesn't hold up across the majority of cases and it further perpetrates the toxic idea of the tortured artist. The Irish people have undeniably faced a lot of hardship and persecution however you never see trad music in any top 100. Are people expecting a massive surge in popularity for middle eastern music given the recent tragic histories of many countries in that region? The cultural importance of black people within american can really only be viewed as being black in america. The horrors they went through and the continued oppression they face are not how they are able to make culturally relevant music. Its a more complicated relationship within America about american culture. I'm as white as hell so I won't quote it but Paul Mooney made a very particular quote about it that I think is always relevant. sorry if this is rambling and incoherent, just wanted to get some thoughts off my chest.

[@mat6114]

You cannot judge if something is "great art" by comparing sales numbers, this should be pretty obvious.

[@ignaciorodriguezmelgarejo9526]

@@mat6114 but isn't sales numbers part of the discussion here. If black musicians had more sales numbers that would've meant that they weren't as oppressed in 1950s America

[@TheGhostOfFredZeppelin]

Although I agree with you the part about great pain leading to great art being bullshit, is in my opinion bullshit. It isn't a guarantee but it can be a very good foundation. The fact that Irish trad music isn't popular to the masses doesn't mean that it isn't any good. What you said about seeing it through a black and America centered lens is spot on though.

[@SkywardSpoon]

@@TheGhostOfFredZeppelin Having an experience to pull from can help but in the majority of cases it is an artists ease of access to training and their ability to prioritise their art over their economic self interest that allows them to advance and improve. This can be further seen with the increasing amount of songwriters on songs. The artist is a musical talent but more now than ever the emotional core, the lyrics, is being outsourced to others, who don't get the same recognition.

[@TheGhostOfFredZeppelin]

@@SkywardSpoon For sure, I was mostly objecting to the "great pain leads to great art being bullshit" part. There's a reason blues has so much feeling as it largely originates from the so called "Negro spirituals" or "Field Shouts". That might also just be my subjective opinion on it as a huge blues fan but the pain is there and their art is great. As far as music today with 10+ songwriters per song, I pretty much just see it as people using music as a vehicle towards fame as opposed to doing it for the love and creating something beautiful which was more common in the past.

[@capuchinoo0o]

As i mexican who grow up listening and playing all tipes of music (black , white , indigenous , spanish ,...etc) its a cultural shock that people in american and england decide what music likes in base of the race/etnicity of the person who plays

[@iSkully99]

Not England. Black and white music were played alongside each other on the radio and entire generations adored all the black music made in america.

[@wrestlinganime4life288]

@Naikomi That's the thing the USA system have racially almost everything. From our body features to our hairs, from our culture to the our health (so many black women have been poorly treated for C Section operation and mostly not for a misunderstanding, but this fetish of black body being more resilient), from be labelled as thug simply because of how we dress or the freaking durag. And when you point the bs out there's always somebody saying don't mAkeE iT a RAcE ThiNg. The US system is fucked and hypocritical and lack accountability. It's exhausting

[@weirdnproud117]

It's not so much that we (the consumer) made that decision, but that the decision was made for us by record companies, promoters, and advertisers. At least, that's how it used to be before the Internet democratized the distribution of music and caused an epic blow to the record industry.

[@wizard0z188]

@Naikomi this just isnt the case you travel more you realise

[@brownycow22]

​@@iSkully99 We've been HEAVILY Americanised and copied most of the bad racial identity culture from the USA, the BBC even has a black radio station despite the fact black music is already extremely popular with the white majority.

[@griffinxk5764]

i dont really care about the skin colour of the bands and artists i listen to, i just like what sounds good

[@sydguitar99]

Cultural appropriation is an interesting thing bc culture in itself wouldn't exist unless everyone was taking something from someone else. I mean human society is built on the idea of sharing ideas, technology and values

[@brovold72]

The interview subjects are more balanced than the narrator IMHO. Interesting stuff.

[@juho7271]

I never understood the concept of cultural appropriation since for me being a better human means to be in touch with other cultures than mine. Why is it really wrong to embed these cultural nuances in your own fabric of life?

[@2nnawrap]

@@juho7271 it’s not necessarily wrong when it comes to the interpersonal exchangement of cultural ideas and practices (done respectfully); the problem of appropriation arises when one community expressly makes a profit of some sort out of another’s practices, usually adding in the fact that the latter community’s cultural ideas and practices are looked down upon/undervalued. like, in this instance of rock and roll, how many black artists were maligned and sectioned off from receiving their due credits only for white artists to gain influence from the same style, then become the faces of said style of music/receive all the praise. then in turn the music has been so far removed from its original context, it doesn’t really embed any differing ‘cultural nuances’ into your own understanding of art if you arent even made aware of its origins. it’s an issue that’s better understood structurally than interpersonally, imo

[@Gyropathic]

@@juho7271 Because people want a way to complain about "white people" when all this can be boiled down to "these people did something that was inspired by and made more money". The idea of "cultural appropriation" is just a politically charged term to make people sound bad when it's clearly inspiration instead, or just them liking something. Because at the end of the day, everything is inspired by something, music itself was most likely inspired by the sounds of nature, and rock isn't just at its soul from one group of people, it takes queues from many sources, but people just attribute it to "black music" to make them sound righteous and superior because "they know the history".

[@juho7271]

@@Gyropathic Could not have said it better myself.

[@ZOB4]

I think the suggestion that because Led Zeppelin existed other artists didn’t get heard is more than a little bit of a stretch. I would say curious listeners actually learned more about Black artists because of being exposed to the style through Led Zeppelin. I am not suggesting that they didn’t steal from some black artists, but the suggestion that that means that those artists got less opportunity as a result is questionable at best.

[@ObsdnBlck]

I believe that accusations of cultural appropriation, while indeed a real thing, is something that we need to be careful making in the context of music. Music does not exist in a vacuum. By it's very nature, musical genres influence and are influenced by each other, and no single culture is responsible for any modern popular genre of music. Yes, rock was heavily influence by so-called 'race' music, which had it's influence in blues and jazz, which themselves have their roots in black culture. However, blues itself draws it's roots not only from black gospel and spirituals, but from country and folk music that are considered to be 'white'. Jazz itself drew heavy influence from European classical music, as well as spirituals and traditional African music. The same is true for all genres of popular music. They all draw from and are influence by each other. That's the nature of music. So, barring some blatantly obvious example of outright stealing from another culture unchanged, which many artists have done (and Zeppelin themselves are not immune from that), I'm hesitant to accuse any genre of music as a whole of cultural appropriation. Individual artists however are another issue.

[@generalskunk6876]

@@moistgooseberry he did.

[@ObsdnBlck]

@@moistgooseberry I did watch the video, and largely agree with Polyphonic's take. Zeppelin has been guilty of outright theft in the past. That's different than the cross-cultural influencing that all music genres do, which is an area where I think accusations of cultural appropriation gets a bit more hazy.

[@moistgooseberry]

@@ObsdnBlck ah i understand your point, that's fair yeah

[@MsMastress]

That's very true and while I agree with the idea that music has to be a flower bed of cross-pollination, the issue more so lies with the institutions that monetize and appropriate the music we listen to without giving anything back. Let's not detract from that, because, while Zeppelin certainly made some ugly moves in that regard, this issue is much larger than just them

[@thatmarchingarrow]

I agree, but even if that wasn't the case, I think the concept of cultural appropriation is very often treated in a ridiculous way, especially with music and art in general. Music shouldn't be closed off to people based on national or ethnic boundaries, I think. Even with music styles that are entirely (or almost entirely) from one place or culture, I don't think there is anything wrong with people from outside of that context enjoying it and wanting to take part. In much the same way that it's perfectly acceptable for non-europeans to play classical music and compose their own pieces in that style if they wanted to, I think it's perfectly acceptable with any other music style/genre and any ethnicity or nationality or whatever. I think as long as they don't take credit for things that have nothing to do with them, and they're not using it to harm people (especially the people that did originate that music) and as long as it's done in a respectful way, then it should be fine for anyone to play and write any type of music they want to.

[@Pencilman246]

I appreciate that you’re coming at these topics as a fan. A lot of people now throw out these accusations and hot takes and it comes across badly because they don’t understand what people like about the music they’re criticizing. This way, you’re able to get these important conversations out to fans without fans of the music getting into their defensive little bubbles. Nuance is key. I think there’s a lot to be said about how black music and black culture is perceived by those growing up in England vs in the US. That’s not to say that England doesn’t have racial issues but the music didn’t come with the same baggage over there. Blues and rock weren’t “race music” over there, it was American music and they wanted to emulate it as such. It’s cool that The Rolling Stones, who also appropriated blues very heavily, tried introducing their heroes, like Howlin Wolf, to their young white audiences, giving credit and spotlight and not letting anyone mistake them for originating the genre. Eric Clapton, for all the ire he gets nowadays (for good reason) also elevates his influences like BB King and Buddy Guy every chance he gets. It’s also interesting how the Beatles are rarely, if ever, accused of the same kind of appropriation, and I think that’s because their influences were equally black and white, equal parts Chet Atkins and Chuck Berry, country and rock and roll. They also wore their Little Richard and doo-wop vocal group influences on their sleeves and were proud of it, similarly to The Rolling Stones. Everybody gets their style from somebody else. The key seems to be accepting and recognizing where you get it from instead of pretending it’s all original. Zeppelin, coming at the end of the decade, probably felt like the genre had moved away from its roots enough to not warrant direct shoutouts. Who knows. There have been lots of great black artists in rock music since Jimi Hendrix and it’s unfortunate that the industry sidelined many of them for so long and made the genre monocultural.

[@InventorZahran]

That's the real problem: the recording and radio industries have historically (and sometimes currently) acted as gatekeeping institutions that favored musicians of certain races over others. If the leaders of the most influential record labels and radio stations had been more egalitarian in regard to who they gave exposure and opportunities to, the issue of "taking Black music and bleaching it to appeal to a white audience" might not've been so widespread. But unfortunately, the industries didn't really care about equal opportunity, and just did whatever would get them the most sales and profit.

[@reversethecurse6408]

Exactly we all gave inspirations even if some don't wanna admit it we all inspired by each other all races. But it's different when somebody makes something and get no love for it

[@abishorynbassarov1274]

A big beatles fan here. They were actually showing their love for little richard every chance they get, in every interview asking about what inspired them. You just dont know that, i am not judging you though. And what about eric clapton being recently accused?

[@DonovanPresents]

10:42 this is one of the few things I agree with, but that's based on more of genuineness over anything. Edit: I also hate calling something like "white" or "black" music or any labels as a certain "color".

[@patorjk]

I don't remember VH1's Behind the Music being white centric. I checked the wikipedia page, and it looks like 54 of the 213 artists covered were black (~25%). I remember the biggest criticisms of that show being that it was overly dramatic and that they were covering recent artists whose careers still had many years in front of them (ex: there's no Elvis Behind the Music and the majority of the artists covered are from the 80's and 90's). I'm all for calling out racism, but this doesn't seem to be a fair target.

[@higihagaa]

i haven't checked the list, but i assume there were multiple genres covered, not just rock. how i understood it, they were talking exclusively about the documentaries on rock acts (which were, at the time, white), and how they never mentioned the genres roots in black artists music.

[@patorjk]

@@higihagaa that's a fair point, though I was raised on those same docs and was well aware of rock's roots. Most artists are pretty open about who influenced them.

[@Dloin]

I guess this video got the full force of people just beeing sick of everything beeing viewed exclusively through an American lense.

[@BethInNowhere]

As an asian Who loves Rock in all its genres I had No Idea about the African American influences! I only started researching history of rock when I stumbled upon your amazing channel 🔥🔥 Thank u so much I look forward to learn more !

[@ra-benheka7219]

Not influences, we're creators and the originators.

[@AmandaFromWisconsin]

@@ra-benheka7219 The instruments used weren't of African origin, though.

[@BeardslapRadio]

@@AmandaFromWisconsin Really? Where are stringed instruments and drums ‘from’?

[@fishcakes5626]

@@AmandaFromWisconsin So by that logic does that mean because African American soul food wasn’t made with traditional African ingredients it’s any less of a product of Black American culture? Hmm...maybe you should rethink that statement 😉

[@aazhie]

@@AmandaFromWisconsin banjos come from African instrument, as are many others. Good deal of "American " sound in music was taken from slave culture.

[@sanitarymailbox-8023]

An amazing example of a current black rock artist is Fantastic Negrito, can not recommend his music enough, his entire album "Please Don't Be Dead" is a masterpiece front to back

[@krauxnotfaux]

facts. Plastic Hamburgers rocks

[@robertreyes8792]

His tiny desk concert was something else too

[@helloagain6243]

He's not black.

[@westofthedawn]

@@helloagain6243 …what?

[@helloagain6243]

@@westofthedawn no such thing. Just a human. The whole colour classification is the biggest fallacy.

[@martinpaddle]

I have the impression that the British bands who got into the Blues - John Mayall, the Stones, Yardbirds, Clapton, even Led Zep - did so with a lot of respect, but also incorporated their own experiences. They may have rescued the Blues and kept it alive, and many of the old Blues musicians were grateful to them. But the question remains, why did it have to be English bands that got huge on the back of the Blues? Who knows, it may have been in the wake of the Beatles...

[@TheGhostOfFredZeppelin]

If you listen to any of the old blues greats talk they'll tell you the same thing, blues is pain and heartache and who hasn't felt that? It's 100% true that it originated within the black communities of America but it's just foolish to say that nobody but black people could feel the blues, and if you feel it you can play it as blues is all about feeling.

[@Nictric1]

A great example a song by Zeppelin that discusses personal issues is What is and Should never be. The song is about Robert Plant's wife's sister who he dated. She is also the motivation for Black Country Woman.

[@martinpaddle]

@@TheGhostOfFredZeppelin absolutely, and to be fair, the video also acknowledges that. I guess the question remains why the industry decided to push these bands, rather than the originators. I think it's because they were English, and the Beatles created a market for English bands... even Jimi Hendrix made his breakthrough after he moved to London and was put in a British band

[@TheGhostOfFredZeppelin]

@@martinpaddle I guess it's about money as always, a young energetic artist/band is more marketable than some old man who maybe haven't even played his music in years. By that I mean the old pretty much retired bluesmen and and not the Little Richards and Chuck Berry's of the world

[@bogonzomd]

@@martinpaddle also, white English bands were seen as more "marketable" than black American bands, we can't erase the racial element from this discussion. Not saying that's something the Beatles or Zepellin or Clapton or the Stones were to blame for, they didn't make those decisions themselves, but it must be mentioned.

[@SonofSethoitae]

Rather than wade into the weeds of the comment section on this one, I'm just going to plug a black rock band that fucking rules: Death. Formed in Detroit in 1964, they were one of the best proto-punk bands the city ever produced. Check them out.

[@PatrickBateman14eighty8]

They suck and were simply a garage band

[@azrael7891]

Bad Brains is better

[@anthonyorr8868]

its funny, i looked them up and the first thing to pop up was an all white metal band from the 80's. seems appropriate to the content of this video lol

[@tommymcintyre5243]

Fucking great 👌👌👌

[@paisleyprincess7996]

The Ramones took their sound from them….

[@PRODUCEDBYMATTIX]

Blues for life. If you read the lives of these musicians which inspired Led Zep, they aren’t even given the same respect (back then or now) as Led Zep

[@WhizzerdSupreme]

Worth pointing out that "back in the day," you wouldn't get the life sued out of you for covering a song or doing a new version of something without writing "COVER" at the beginning of every heading. It was assumed that songs grew off of each other and developed over time, like "St. James Infirmary Blues" or "House of the Rising Sun."

[@ryanbell8448]

Their last video explores this, but you're right that it might've been worth a mention in this discussion

[@bhg123ful]

I learned about Chuck Berry, Muddy Waters, Willie Dixon, and Robert Johnson from the listening to the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, and Eric Clapton. Without the latter, I wouldn’t have even learned of the former. My Dad happened to have some Blues records that he introduced me to. And this was over two decades ago, that I learned that nearly all American music came from Black culture.

[@23nickriley]

Is nobody gonna mention that some of the most danceable music by black artists has the emphasis on the 1 and the 3 not the 2 and the 4 such as James Brown and a lot of Funk music? Wrong to say you can only dance to the 2 and the 4.

[@scottisnotaprofessional9665]

Come on. You know these ideologues never acknowledge anything that might complicate the issue.

[@rashotcake6945]

He was speaking generally, never said that there wasn’t any exceptions

[@hanislip]

Hey, can I make a portuguese version of this video?

[@Saybleu]

Your Bonham video was the video that hooked me to your channel and you've never disappointed. Even if I'm not a fan of the genre ( any rap ) I've learned a lot from your in depth research.

[@bilabong4257]

I agree with some things, disagree with others. But I don’t understand why Led Zeppelin are the “focus” of this video.

[@Ветров-о1ш]

Coz it's project about Led Zeppelin, containing some videos, telling about different topics.

[@toadman10]

Because the video is about led zepplelin...

[@JosephWheeler14]

Well they're not really, 90% of the video is about cultural appropriation.

[@LoganT101]

This video name drops Zeppelin because this is “Zeppelin Month” and Polyphonic is releasing a variety of videos about Led Zeppelin. This is as much a part of their legacy as Stairway to Heaven.

[@firebearva]

Because Whitey didn't buy Little Richard's records.

[@thevfxmancolorizationvfxex4051]

There is a black rock band from the 70s called Mother's Finest that are absolutely amazing

[@j.luvleimoney8189]

That’s my Dad’s favorite band.

[@kadrel]

I was listening to Mother's Finest's Live Album couple days ago and they are amazing. Check out Sound Barrier a black rock band from the 80's LA hard rock and metal scene. I didn't hear of Sound Barrier until about six month ago. I learn about them from the Metal School youtube channel kzbin.info/www/bejne/joO0g2idpNmBn5Y

[@toad_house_homestead]

It would be interesting to see how things came full circle with the heavy influence of white dominant rock bands on the zam-rock and afrobeat movements in Africa in the late 70s and even up to present time. I would love a video essay on zam-rock in general either way. Thank you for the great content.

[@shashwatsingh8768]

by the time Zeppelin came along, there had already been too many white artists who played blues rock and other black music. The Stones and other English bands from the 60s mostly started out as blues rock bands. So when we say Zeppelin stole music, we're only reemphasizing on the fact that most of rock music of the 60s and the 70s comes from Black influences like blues and jazz. The reason people felt the urge to reiterate it after Elvis, The Stones, Cream etc.. is because Zeppelin was that good. and authentic. Zeppelin should be the last music group to be blamed for stealing because they were the one's who transcended the genre by doing experiments with blues rock. They actually (in terms of Intellectual Property rights) transformed the style and the playing enough to be able to qualify for Fair Use. Same thing happened when Jimmy Page's Stairway to Heaven opening riff had been sued for copyright infringement with Taurus claiming that it sounds like their song Spirit. I don't remember what the court decided but listening to the two you could tell the similarities but Page's rendition does profoundly builds upon the Taurus song sufficiently and hence it is not Stealing. Zeppelin in fact should be credited as the one's who stood out transcendently, who did so much apart from just rock n roll by infusing Eastern influences in their music. So, in an ocean full of white artists who appropriated music from other cultures, Zeppelin, in my opinion, were the least complicit.

[@ForeignManinaForeignLand]

FD Signifier sent me! Such an important conversation to have ✊🏿

[@danielortega3556]

The 2:00 mark part where they mixed the intro to Rock n Roll to the Immigrant Song scream and this other song (which is killing me that I’m not remembering) was the hardest transition of all time

[@Luigiguy101]

That’s Achilles Last Stand

[@baddleacks4128]

wish youtube had a sort by controversial option for the comment section. excellent video

[@tonyg656]

Thank you so much for doing this much deeper dive into rock music. Hopefully people will listen and then begin to understand not only the song but its roots in our collective history.

[@drmorqWarrenProject]

I am 65 years old and still write and record music, rock music I suppose. And I realize that a lot of popular music was informed of and built on the backs of black performers. We were kept away from rock n roll music when we were growing up in the 60's. Our dad played the piano and sang in church and local choral groups and we were exposed to music in that way. He had a collection of records musicals and classical music and we would hear those if he wasnt playing the piano after he got home from work. He had also composed a few songs and had a couple recorded... so we always felt that we should be able to write songs also. We did watch Ed Sullivan and so occasionally we would see a soul group or a rock group... But if it got wild, mom would change the channel... We saw the Beatles first performance because we were visiting our cousins and they had their tv on Ed Sullivan so their teen age daughters could watch it and they went crazy. It made me want to play in a band. As I grew older my own album collection had Isaac Hayes and Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles, Parliment, The Spinners, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Fats Dominoe, Bo Diddley... as well as many of the white artists. My musical tastes were informed of classical music and I played percussion in the school bands and orchestras from 2nd grade thru 9th grade.. I have tried to be respectful in my art and in my life. I wonder why others arent.

[@DOCTOR.DEADHEAD]

Very informative and insightful video. As a huge fan of their music I appreciate the extra knowledge of what they were inspired by and totally agree that it's important to be "responsible fans" as you said. It's disappointing to know many people will watch this and think you're bashing the band or saying it's inherently wrong to like them. Really shows a lack of critical thinking skills.

[@rsmith02]

They get stuck on the title and shut off their minds at that point.

[@Kosovar_Chicken]

@@rsmith02 Nah, people have known about this for years. It’s just the use of buzz words and modern radicalized views that piss people off. People r done with woke shit. As a historian, I can tell you history isn’t black and white like how it’s presented here.

[@tecpaocelotl]

Best segment so far. One thing you need to do in the future of Chicano (Mexican-American) rock n roll was rising until British invasion came over.

[@MattValtezzy95]

*sees the preview for the next video* Oh, he's going "there" I pray for your ad revenue

[@joalco3]

There seems to be a lot of blame directed at Led Zeppelin that belongs to larger societal forces at play. You acknowledge this at some point but I think you lose sight of it. Nothing is wrong with being creatively influenced by black artists. Of course if they use something specific they should credit those artists. And regarding the end, what did you want them to do, purposely not be successful?

[@Ntrinzc]

They also stole from and didnt credit white artists so you cant call them cultural appropriasts, just appropriasts lmao

[@Knightgil]

​@@Ntrinzc "Stealing" is a word that should recieve more careful thought, however. It carries with it a number of assumptions. All art carries a certain degree of imitation. All art takes inspiration from what precedes it, whether that inspiration is conscious and unconscious. It's inevitable, and normal. There is no completely original piece of art, unless you were born and raised in a desert island with no contact to any other human being. In fact, it can be argued that throughout History, art and culture was always much more a matter of tradition than innovation. It's easy to be deceived by the fast pace of our society, with demands of constant innovation and improvement, but things were not like that for the majority of human existence. Even today, a lot of more traditional music doesn't sound too different from one song to another. There is an expectation that things are going to sound relatively similar within any given musical tradition. Actually, people seem to accept much easier the fact when things sound familiar to what they already know than when things sound very different, new and original. So the question is: if familiarity is normal, if a degree of imitation is normal, and if we even appreciate it, how come we started to stigmatize it? How come we started to see it as stealing? Does that even make sense? Let's also keep in mind one very important thing: we live in a capitalistic society. The morals of our society are not absolute morals, they are the morals of our time, place and interests (often of priviliged groups). I would argue that there is no intrinsic moral flaw in replicating what was already done by someone else. I would also argue that society only sees it that way because that threatens our capitalistic way of living. When you presume yourself owner of a combination of musical notes, and call anyone who takes from that a "thief", what are you really doing? Are you really defending your creative rights from an outside attack, are you really interested in some creative code-of-ethics, or are you just defending your property rights? Are you operating on the assumption that it is imoral to copy, even when all points towards copying being part of human nature, and so, stigmatizing copying is akin to denying people their own human nature, or are you just operating on the precepts of capitalistic society, cynically trying to convince people that the moral extends anywhere beyond economical interest? And what would be of copyright laws if we lived in a non-capitalistic society? Would they still hold? Simply put, "stealing" in this context is a word that is very much politically charged, even if we are unaware of it. We should be careful how we use it, and question our most immediate assumptions to find out if it really makes that much sense to use it. Perhaps it does make sense, but perhaps it makes no sense at all.

[@Ntrinzc]

@@Knightgil bruh we all watched the video u just wasted a ton of time. You completely missed my point, you cant call led zepplin racist oppressors if they do what they do to every group of people. Amateurs borrow, Great artists steal, im contempt with my word choice.

[@barrosbarros270]

I'm shocked and disappointed with how few views these videos are getting. Great analysis.

[@DEPARTMENTOFREDUNDANCYDEPT]

There was a time when the influence of artists upon the creativity of artists of other cultures was appreciated and even celebrated. These days it is called "cultural appropriation," and it is transparent bullshit created by people whose only goals are creating excuses to be offended and amplifying divisions between people.

[@Saybleu]

I'm in my mid 50s. Grew up on all kinds of music ( Guitar, bass, drums, loud being my drug of choice ) but can't imagine life without the black music I grew up listening to and still remain in my rotation.

[@joermnyc]

The thing is, the crowd at Woodstock was mixed, the crowd at Altamount was mixed, so what changed in that short time that Zeppelin at MSG was not? Was that just something that got lost when the Hippy Era ended?

[@theycallhimwoods]

after the Woodstock film was released advertisers started to get their claws into FM radio- also, the tickets for MSG '73 were available via mail order and were scalped at prices higher than the $7.50 posted price - they were the last three nights of the tour

[@NameName-yc7kv]

Listening to Zepplin, it always a trip of influences, it seemed they traveled the world, India, American south, Ireland, fusing everything together.

[@tymime]

Of course, this sort of discussion always makes me think: That there isn't really a reason why we should ultimately disallow British white people from playing the blues.

[@mikecaetano]

I dunno. I bought a lot of blues records over the decades thanks to Led Zeppelin turning me on to that sound when I was a teenager. Howlin Wolf, John Lee Hooker, Robert Johnson...

[@UncleKeith567]

There is a bit of talk here around Led Zeppelin being an English band, which makes appropriation or stealing more difficult to imagine. To that point, it was Black US soldiers who brought their music over to the UK during WWII, and that influence ran deeper and quicker because white panic was slightly less prevalent than in the US. Kids could open carry black records. Next, Led Zeppelin was way more popular in the US than in the UK, and white Americans really claimed ownership. Black people who might have tried to see LZ on that early tour ran the high probably of getting their butts kicked. Most white people I knew growing up in the 70's & 80's didn't want black people involved with something that was theirs, and was wholly created by white talent and ingenuity. People still believe this. Reminds me of that time Prince opened for the Rolling Stones (a band that was very honest about thievery) and the crowd threw food, liquid, boos and slurs at the multi-racial band. After trying for two shows, and never completing a set, Prince quit the tour. I wonder what would have happened if the Stones were brave enough to threaten cancelling the show if respect wasn't shown to an artist they personally invited on the tour. Ignorance is bliss.

[@itsbeyondme5560]

Oh please. Stop being but hurt

[@UncleKeith567]

@@itsbeyondme5560 Hi, I'm too old and too gay to know what you mean by butt hurt, but I am willing to have an adult conversation.

[@monimuppet6132]

I agree. It's certainly difficult to stand against a widely accepted idea to protect another, but not impossible. I keep reading and hearing the same thing over and over when these subjects are brought up; "Culture and art are meant to be shared. They had great respect for the Black artists," and so on. Well, then, act accordingly. Do you respect them enough to make sure they get paid for the art they shared? Did you offer anything to share in return? Do you respect them enough to say in plain language that they inspired you? That your music is a tribute? As one artist to another, do you respect them enough to defend their art alongside your own? Some do, some don't. My favorite part of the whole vid, which many seem to have dismissed, is the idea that WE, the fan, can be more responsible in our acknowledgement of our artist's musical roots. If we really want to say "we're about the music, not the color" then we need not get so upset about those roots being made clear. In my eyes, the responsible fan would appreciate the knowledge.

[@UncleKeith567]

@@monimuppet6132 Bravo! So true!

[@cjcoleman7372]

Apparently I have lived under a rock or dremt 30 something yrs because I remember growing up and watching interviews of members of different bands and hearing them say what inspired the artists when they grew up also including black artists along with the rest of the melting pot. So I'm confused about the stealing rock from anyone? What about Prince.. Lenny Kravitz and..and. I mean I thought that music was everyone's? Yes there has been a progression in what is popular as a whole human race but the way things are today it's the "white man bad". Yes in some cases and especially back in the day but it's not culture against culture for the majority I feel. It's the rich against everyone else. I just wish more people seen it for what it really is. Just because the rich happens to be white means all wite people are bad? If that's the case then every race is bad because there are rich people in EVERY race.

[@leatherzeppelin_krystalserpent]

fd signifier is a great channel fr, these videos are amazing

[@jameslomenzo1139]

Little Richard you think he would have lived in a big city when he passed away but he died in a small town outside Nashville,Tennessee called Tullahoma.

[@theflyingdonkeypunch]

The problem with the point made by your first contributor is that he's talking about something subjective. Your video aligned with his narration seems to suggest Little Richard had 'soul', whereas Elvis was nothing but a tool with no 'soul'. There are millions of people who would disagree, so it's an opinion but presented as fact. I actually agree with him to an extent, as I'd rather listen to LR, but can anyone who knows anything about Elvis deny his genuine love for the music he sung? I understand the larger point about thr industry itself needing white people to lead the sales, and I agree with that. Just feel Elvis gets alot of hate for someone who was also very poor, and was a music lover at a young age Edit, just to summarise: points about the inherent racism in the industry during the 50s is a genuine fact, but you can't dictate who has 'soul' and who doesn't in an objective way. Does a black person playing Bach not have soul because it's not part of his heritage?

[@justinpaulino9228]

yet he didn’t even give Big Mama Thornton her credit nor was he interested in meeting her for a concert after exploiting her song Hound Dog. He deserves antagonism for not being an truly appreciative fan of black music and would rather exploit their music and not recognize their humanity

[@Agostoic]

The central point that should have been argued it's the industry pushing these narratives to improve profit instead of blaming on the artist who might have been genuinely moved by making it big with their music.

[@laurarosa3924]

NOICE!!!

[@Kosovar_Chicken]

We wuz zepplin n shit

[@cursivegalaxy345]

@@justinpaulino9228 Big Mama Thorton didn’t write hound dog it wasn’t exactly her song and he was truly an appreciative fan of black music

[@Rrgr5]

That remembers me a band called Death, which for what I remember was the first punk rock band, was a black band practically forgotten, if you didn't knew it go on and try, they have some awesome songs.

[@KSSKAYDEE]

Yesssiir

[@tj3482]

The stooges and MC5 predated death. They were the first proto punk bands, but that's no disrespect to Death, as they were equally as fantastic

[@guy38800]

Deeply appreciate the thoughtful approach taken here. Sad to see how this topic cannot be discussed without denial and discourse. It's way past time to swallow the hard truth of pop music.

[@dlawlis]

How does one discuss a topic without discourse?

[@Obi-WanKannabis]

@@dlawlis The progressives present their opinion and you either agree or you're a racist. No discourse.

[@ElectricBoogaloo007]

1:32 If you look at the audiences of black blues musicians during that same time period, you will see mostly white faces as well.

[@MidnightOrigins]

Great video. I'm writing a paper about this very sort of topic and this video has given me plenty of ideas to think about. Thank you.

[@reethkitchards]

Millennials should never do music critique of any kind.

[@purelytheoretical2205]

I’m glad that Zeppelin was just a jumping off point for a deeper discussion here, on the whole practice the white American music execs had, and that white American culture at large still has, of preferring Black art through a “bleached” white lens. while Zeppelin definitely played a huge part in the eventual whitening of rock, they were more the nail in the coffin, it sounds like, than the first rock in an avalanche. anyway, this was a great vid, with great guests.

[@HerrMeier007]

I would be super interested in a video about the rise of Asian musicians when it comes to classical music. I study in a musical school in Germany and it’s really interesting to me that my course, which is about Jazz- and Pop, contains of basically only white students and the classical course contains of 80% Asian students. I do find that very interesting since a lot of classical music obviously originates from Europe and especially Germany and yet the dominance of certain groups in the different genres seems really strange to me. And even tho Germany might not have the same percentage of black people In our population that America has, it’s still really strange that I haven’t seen a single black student yet at our school, especially since all of the music in our institute has such strong black origins.

[@beepot2764]

Thank you for mentioning this because I have wanted to look into this. Asian classical musicians is so prevalent that it has become a stereotype which in itself is interesting. I wonder if this will eventually change since classical music as a genre is struggling because it has become so deeply tied to "upper" class limiting its accessibility.

[@derrickglover8707]

The breakdown had me look this up. A lot I didn't know about Zeppelin. Thanks for being willing to put this out

[@arpanghosh884]

incredible. i have officially watched all the videos and all of them are so incredibly researched, it blows my mind.

[@SahilMakhijani]

Amazing job as always! You continue to outdo yourself with every video!

[@mrledhead68]

British youth loved Jazz, Blues and gave us harder rock! No racism!! Sad people play that card... sad.

[@Jamamegapr]

Watching this video I can't help but think how the image of modern music, especially rock n roll, would be perceived if Jimi Hendrix were still alive (or at least haven't died in 1970). The black history in rock n roll was being hidden when out of nowhere comes a black guitar god who made the best musicians and guitarist of that era tremble at his presence. Even Clapton admitted this. This man was only active from 1966-67ish till his death and still TO THIS DAY is considered to be the best guitarist who ever lived by many. People of color finally had representation in the rock n roll scene. Front and center. And then he tragically dies. Oh, man. What could've been, huh

[@Lenak_]

The audio mix of this video is insanely good

[@benjaminprietop]

Tough conversation, but really necessary

[@GiovanniFrancioso]

Most black people are not musicians. Most white people are not musicians. The fact that it's constantly considered black music when very few black people actually played it and that there are very few white musicians who also play it it should be credited to the PEOPLE and not the race. It's honestly ridiculous and disgusting at this part that we continue to call something white or black. Lastly, the guitar and the piano were both invented by white italians. The trumpet by a white German. The saxophone by a white Belgian. The harmonica by a white German as well. So if there's any appropriation it would be the blacks stealing the instrumentations of whites. How does that sound? It sounds pretty stupid doesn't it? Well that's what it sounds like about people talking about ANY type of appropriation. By the way I'm mixed race. My mother is from Europe and my father is from Africa and raised in the Middle East. So before anybody calls me some kind of racist you should know those things.

[@orikarin714]

(white) people: makes rock because they like it polyphonic: now thats racist

[@crucialfyah]

I have to say that I’m sick of the phrase and overuse of cultural appropriation. Who gives a shit? If music or a sport or a book or whatever has origins from a certain race, like literally everything we know, who cares if someone else is inspired by it to create their own. Who cares if someone else wants to play that sport. Basketball was invented by a white Canadian guy. Now it’s dominated by black Americans. Some of the best chefs in the world cook their best dishes from other cultures besides their own. I think people need start caring less about where things originated from and that it should remain within that culture, and start enjoying the variety of what different cultures and people bring to the table.

[@Altar360]

You’re sort of missing the point of why people have an issue with appropriation. Using music as an example to stay on topic. The issue isn’t that white musicians are playing black music, is that the systems that be used that to ERASE black musicians. Not so much the musicians and bands themselves, which this video points out, but it’s important to call out when something as simple as some musician paying tribute to another is used by the system to oppress and erase others of lower standing.

[@mykeadelic]

this is dope and super insightful!! so glad you got fd signifier on here! amazing.

[@kiemonssal]

Best video essay on The subject I've seen all year

[@britinbrazil7912]

Music, especially popular music is an art form and has evolved over centuries with influences as diverse as early European gregoric chants, African, Arabian and Persian rhythmic and melodic influences and many others including jazz and the blues. Were all those musicians guilty of cultural appropriation? What would you make of say Tishoumaren or assouf otherwise known as desert blues? They knew nothing of the delta blues or Chicago electric blues that came after yet their music is just as bluesy. Where did their influences come from? Music is always evolving throughout the world. To say a musician or band must be criticized or accused of "cultural appropriation" for being influenced by music from somewhere different to their own "culture" would be to accuse almost every musician in the world! This viewpoint could only have come from the US. The rest of the world appreciates all music for what it is and the fact that blues first found popularity outside its own place amongst whites 3000 miles away in a depressing little island off the coast of Europe is because when we heard it for the first time, it struck a chord literally, and young British musicians wanted more and dug deeper into its roots. This, at a time when black Americans in the south couldn't use the same rest room, bars, cafes etc as whites. and the only bluesy music you could hear on the radio came from a young white dude who grew up with it in Tupelo and Memphis. Blues musicians who were barely known in their own country toured extensively (and still do) in the UK and other European countries were blues was gaining popularity at a time when white Americans for the most part didn't even know it was a thing. The American music industry did its best to keep black artists in their "place", it was, and still is endemic throughout the whole of US society. Led Zeppelin where just one British rock band who were influenced heavily by blues. The fact they didn't always give original artists credit where it was due has of course been rectified since. No, Led Zeppelin didn't appropriate anything that wasn't freely given by other cultures to add to the melting pot of music. a pot that is still being added to and providing influence and inspiration to other musicians and artists the world over.

[@leatherzeppelin_krystalserpent]

the next video about the groupies is gonna be a hard one to watch

[@BlackNicholson97]

Yeah… thank god I faked my death

[@leatherzeppelin_krystalserpent]

@@BlackNicholson97 thank god

[@c.nelson3747]

I'm looking forward to it a lot, but at the same time I'm really dreading it too, even not being a very big Led Zeppelin fan. This series has been great so far.

[@leatherzeppelin_krystalserpent]

@@c.nelson3747 I am a hardcore fan and I knew about the underage groupies but ignored it for comfort

[@kenh5317]

Thanks for this video. In looking at rock during the 50s to 70s, I think it is important to separate white British musicians from white American musicians. The white British musicians experienced black music as music, not as race music. Not that Great Britain was not racist, but it did not have the same racial history as the US. In the end, we still end up with Led Zeppelin playing to stadiums of white people. I think the history, particularly on the British side, is different than Americans might assume.

[@lancewalker2595]

It's not Led Zeppelins fault for being capable of being inspired by "black artists", the question that's always left unspoken concerning the subject of "cultural appropriation" is why the hell "black artists" feel obliged to reject anything and everything that may be considered "white". The source of this sort of racial segregation IS NOT coming from "white culture", it's coming the "black culture" that defines itself in primary opposition to "white culture". Fuck anyone who would presume to criticize Led Zeppelin for having the audacity to NOT be racially conscious. God damn, the racial baggage that continues to plague American culture is absolute cancer, if anything, that is the reason why the most successful musicians of the 20th century were British... because British artists have absolutely zero inclination to be so parochial and small-minded as to adopt artistic limitations predicated on such a ridiculously frivolous consideration as skin color.

[@Iconoplastt]

Great video and thanks for bringing these great channels to our attention.

[@Werner4voss]

am Korean and a big fan of Robert Plant and David Coverdale. Both came from Blues back ground and through their interviews, I was able to find musics by Muddy waters and Ray Charles....Great Great stuff

[@philipfry6428]

What I have always considered is whatever style of music is popular among black folk becomes mainstream, black people in America are truly pioneers of art

[@nandisaand5287]

The members of Zeppelin (like many British Invasion artisrs) grew up listening to black blues music, so it's understandable that they incorporated those rhythms into their own art, and made those songs their own. What's NOT understandable or forgivable, is that they presented the songs as their own. The liner notes of the albums list them as the sole song-writers, even songs like "Dazed and Confused", "The Lemon Song", and "When the Levee Breaks", which were clearly originally written by others.

[@zosomoso]

When the Levee breaks was always credited from the first pressing. The 4 instances where they didn’t initially credit were on the first two albums. But we’re later credited in the 80s. Every cover or reference was credited from LZ3+.

[@marcofearg9956]

Much of those song dont have any author, are way more similar to folk songs, like when the levee breakes

[@lancewalker2595]

It's not Led Zeppelins fault for being capable of being inspired by "black artists", the question that's always left unspoken concerning the subject of "cultural appropriation" is why the hell "black artists" feel obliged to reject anything and everything that may be considered "white". The source of this sort of racial segregation IS NOT coming from "white culture", it's coming the "black culture" that defines itself in primary opposition to "white culture". Fuck anyone who would presume to criticize Led Zeppelin for having the audacity to NOT be racially conscious. God damn, the racial baggage that continues to plague American culture is absolute cancer, if anything, that is the reason why the most successful musicians of the 20th century were British... because British artists have absolutely zero inclination to be so parochial and small-minded as to adopt artistic limitations predicated on such a ridiculously frivolous consideration as skin color.

[@markpfeifer1402]

Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

[@ubuedro]

Great video-essay. You are very brave, this topics are really needed. Thanks!!

[@ericoconnor5416]

Great video and great perspectives to consider when approaching the media and art that we chose to support. Most of the popular music from past and present has its roots deep in black influence right down to country music, which I call “the blues for white folk”

[@xcaluhbration]

How could this video have so many thumbs down? This secret isn't even a secret anymore, it's just common knowledge. Great video, man, well done.

[@paisleyprincess7996]

Because white folk don’t want to be reminded that even “their” music can partake in passive racism.

[@murrayguitarpickups9545]

Because for so many of us Zeppelin was our introduction to blues artist like Muddy Waters, Robert Johnson and the three kings. Our real world experience tells us this music has been instrumental in breaking down cultural barriers so to suggest its stealing is really not being honest, many blues artist had revived careers in the 70s because of this "cultural appropriation"

[@chex4923]

@@helloagain6243 damn bro what a long way to say youre racist lmao

[@sylezjusz]

I hope this guy doesn't find out about the genetic makeup of folks frequenting Afrika Bambaataa gigs and rocking to Kraftwerk beats. Caliper & Colour Picker brigade has no chill.

[@vaultmasterhd2316]

Generally I feel like music should transcend these barriers but I know it’s not as simple as that, good video

[@bherrin67]

Very interesting conversation. Thanks for presenting a perspective that I had not thought all the way through. And I still love Zeppelin, they revolutionized music. ☮️🎸🕺

[@erinmahoney1407]

Love all of your work, but I'd love to see more content like this where you collaborate with other creators and get multiple perspectives. Very cool video

[@user-km7rc4qc2j]

1) Led Zeppelin are an English band, 50% of the writing force of the band (Robert Plant) having grown up in the Black Country - which in the post-war ear was a literally a slum where the ‘blues’ were a way of life and not cultural appropriation in the way condescending Americans like to believe 2) Led Zeppelin have a huge ‘Celtic’ and ‘folk’ interpolation in their sound. Their biggest hit ‘Stairway to Heaven’ is not ‘blues rock’ until the final 30 seconds. Every album had a different sound and only LZ 1&2 could be firmly attributed to their Blues roots. Listen to ‘Achilles Last Stand’ and please try to make the case that Jimmy Page was not a sonic creative more than capable of carving out sound niches of his own. I seriously resent this pathetic need to deconstruct all white art through the lens of racial oppression. In the UK we have a class system which creates an equal amount of misery for those at the bottom. Try to escape your inaccurate and inappropriate state of being brainwashed by Critical Race Theory and actually do something useful in this world you low IQ, condescending, miserable little loser.

[@mrmidget44698]

the rolling stones where good at promoting the black artists that inspired them. They refused to do a tv show unless howlin wolf was allowed to come on the show beforehand and perform (you can find it on youtube) and always were upfront about their predominantly black inspirations. So were the beatles altho maybe not AS much, dont forget they refused to play segregated audiences an caused the first ever desegregated concert in some southern state they were playing at on tour in the mid 60s. pauls song blackbird is also a good example of them trying to support black civil rights issues

[@MsBloodyFox]

I've been scrolling in the comments and it doesn't surprise me that you see people talking about race wars and others talking about the difference between American culture and British culture, which if you anything, about the British empire is a bit of a blunder to even bring up. All these mental gymnastics why? IMO cause they're scared. Scared cause it makes them feel as if it's now become a crime to listen to their music as if it's at the cusp of being outlawed when no one has mentioned that. No one said don't listen to and enjoy Led Zeppelin but, be wary that the genera of music were pioneered by people who haven't got the recognition they deserve because why? They were black. Plain and simple. So now that we know this what is to be done can be as simple as informing other people who love this music of its origins, listing to the original works and giving these people the recognition they truly deserve. No one is demanding people to be whipped in the streets, just respect and understanding for the communities from which this music was born.

[@kahlilbt]

Exactly! No one here hates LZ or their fans! Just racism and the capitalist labels

[@paisleyprincess7996]

And as the last interviewee said, “Then the focus isn’t on the system…it’s on YOU.” And we sure the hell can’t have white folk being held accountable, can we? And they didn’t get the recognition because they were black, and Led Zeppelin benefited from that, at the exclusion of black audiences and potential black rock groups.

[@beepot2764]

Thank you.

[@mrgabgob4675]

Whilst white washing and black people not being marketed was definitely a thing, people like Elvis and The Beatles weren't trying to or stealing their music. They just appreciated their music and decided to cover it. Then they'd use that style, along with their own, to write original songs. Elvis also didn't sing the songs to get more money than the original artists or to take all the credit for the song. He just appreciated the music and grew up with it. He also was basically forced by his label and the conservative government at the time to play more "family friendly" tunes instead of the "black" songs.

[@manofocean]

I really appreciated what The Most Unruly said. I had always understood there were problems with artists like Elvis appropriating black culture, but I had never really understood *what* the problem was. I just knew it was vaguely about not having the history of what he performed. But The Most Unruly saying that it was about authenticity, and by appropriating black culture, white people are essentially pretending that it is their history, and profitting off of it, really clarified things for me. It makes total sense and I feel like I learned what it really meant in regards to music.