Historian's Take On Cultural Appropriation

[@ronwarrenmusic]

Dude! This is so on target. Sorry i'm late to the party on this one. Had a friend in real need and got behind on your excellent videos. My doctorate is in music composition. Find me a music on the planet that has never been influenced by other music. Aside from that, I am enrolled Cherokee and a Native Flute player. When learning to play, i studied some of the Lakota courting songs just to learn how they work on the instrument. But i have never played them in public. You need permission from the Courting Song Society to do so and I don't have that. A friend/colleague of mine, who is of Greek descent went to the Lakota Res, learned the tradition properly and was given permission to play the songs on his flute. To me, if I played these songs in public without permission, it would be cultural appropriation, even though I am Indig. For my friend, it would not be, even though he is Euro. He was properly initiated and was given permission. Sorry to ramble on so long. This video got me very excited...

[@zacwhyte]

Solid stuff. 🔥 “Cultural exchange is the life breath of what it means to be human.” This is a tough topic and I appreciate you taking a swing at it.

[@SunraeSkatimunggr]

I am really enjoying your take on all this. As an elder (67) American, with both Cherokee and European decent, and one who has studied many Native American cultures, as well as ancient (pagan) Celtic and Nordic practices, I have my own take on cultural morphing, changing, and so called appropriation, which always get me in trouble. Everyone appropriate culture and they always have. It is natural and absolutely pagan. Now, don't get me started talking about Christianity. Now that is the totalitarian problem, not whiteness, though they don't want to admit it. Europe was the first to get converted and it fractured the world...that was Ragnarok. It (that religion and the reaction to it) is core of all the ugliest parts of modern society.

[@artbyjpp5968]

I have to say I love the new editing. Great use of video and graphic examples. A lot of work has gone into that.

[@NordicAnimism]

Yes isn't it ! :-)

[@ramblingrootscamp]

The area I come from in North America that has a pretty big problem with the co-opting of indigenous practice with sage smudging kits for sale all over the place, sweats being held like they are going out of style and the calling in of the spirits and ancestors of the indigenous folks of the area and it has caused a lot of friction between the indigenous communities and the spiritually minded settlers. When I was younger I struggled with the feelings of being deeply connected to the land I was born in and not having ways of expressing it spiritually, so I naturally sought connection through the practices of the local people. Through a life long friends grandfather gave me the very best advice I have ever received. He told me I should not be seeking connection through the spiritual traditions of their people as that was the way the spirits gave to them instruction on practice and that I should listen to the spirits and they would tell me the way they wanted to connect. Create new traditions and stories to create a new connection to the land that honoured my ancestors and the land. This advice planted the seed which has sprouted into roots to the land and evolved into traditions I am passing to my children.

[@davidgough3512]

thanks for affirming my own similar thoughts and questions about connecting to the land. Too much discussion is divorced from actual location/watershed/ecosystem. For example, different historical/indigenous culinary traditions don't need permission when they share common sources from the actual bioregion of origin. "Southern", "Soul", "Low Country", "Gullah" and "Geechee" recipes that span Native American, European, African and the full range of socio-economic status are due to a common bioregion and history, and it would be unthinkably rude to exclude anyone from enjoying this way of cooking and eating. Listening to the local land and practicing charity of the heart transcend all other considerations of "legitimacy".

[@SeanFish4]

I like this, this is just what I am doing. Although I feel like there will always be some element of imitating indigenous people from somewhere.

[@mareenique8191]

Very interesting and insightful video! Thank you for that! Personally I think the question about appropriation is mostly about power, and so the same thing can be different in different contexts. And that also applies for words in my opinion. For example fast fashion brands calling any wide cardigan a "kimono" these days may just be a new use of a word in a similar but ultimately different context (=neutral), however it can have different consequences in different contexts: if H&M call their cardigans "kimono" in Japan Japanese people will just say "oh well, the Swedish don't really know better. Whatever." but the majority knows the original usage of the word kimono its cultural context and significance etc. (=no appropriation, just cringe). If people in Europe start believing that any wide cardigan can be called kimono because all the fast fashion brands use that word it can be hurtful to Japanese minorities in Europe for whom the garment may be part of their cultural identity as a minority in a majority white culture and who put effort into making sure their children know how to wear it and know it's not just a "costume" etc etc. (appropriation? or "just" ignorance? depends?). And finally if someone like Kim Kardashian sells a bunch of underwear and calls it "kimono" because it sounds a bit like her name but has NOTHING to do with the original usage of the word and its culture but is just a cool sounding play of words to make lots of cash - well that's a prime example of appropriating something. So it's mostly about context and power (social, financial and cultural power).

[@nebwachamp]

First world problems.

[@RavenElite1776]

I greatly appreciate your videos they are very informative. As someone who has spent 30 years experiencing imposter syndrome when it comes to the Christian faith I've recently become pagan/heathen following the norse pantheon I'm from Louisiana nowhere near Scandinavia or Norway but I've always felt in my heart that nature as whole was alive the trees have their own spirit and the animals can teach us how to live and have there own symbolisms for example. Odins havamal and the words there in spoke to my heart and to my personal beliefs directly and I felt that my spirit had finally found its home like a long lost brother. Before my conversion I was obsessed with wolves and then ravens and could never quite understand why until now. I'm saddened that it took 30 years to get here but my case maybe similar to your friend being indoctrinated as a voodoo priest. Sometimes you can't help where your heart and spirituality truly lies but it must be tempered with respect and caution for the culture in which the belief originated in my opinion. Race/ethnicity has nothing to do with what or how you believe when it comes to matters of the spirit. Home is home and I found mine In animism and the gods of the norse. Thank you again for all of your informative videos especially in regards to animism please continue your work I look forward to what you do next.

[@Fiction-pb5in]

@Nordic Animisim Great video, I thought some of the doublethink you pointed out was interesting, The example you gave with freud was particularly interesting to me. Because I personally have felt like I have garnered wisdom from his works and although his ideas are prevalent in the part of the world i live in and the pockets of the internet i frequent, i would be careless if i said his ideas were ubiquitous or even to claim I have a firm grasp on the degree of their ubiquity. I wouldn’t have to stretch my imagination far to think of structures from his work that could have their role or function filled by indigenous, asian, african thought structures. And especially in university, although respect for his ideas can vary, it’s conclusive that his processes are not scientifically rigorous. Which for many would preclude it from being knowledge of anything besides frued’s ideas or otherwise popular ideas that are not yet scientifically tractability. The lack of verifiability for many would preclude it from being outright knowledge. That’s not to say the application of the processes or ideas are incapable of generating wisdom. As someone who considers themself a leftist, I personally wasn’t well versed on the political boundaries of belief regarding identitarianism and culture as an identity marker that you outlined in the video because I have thought this before and your acknowledgment of this sometimes being the case, I still have a hard time grasping in what instance this wouldn’t be the case or not comprehensive. Perhaps in that manifestations culture come out and aid in survival or in union with the divine but even still what would the delineating aspect of one culture from another be if not the way in which manifestations of culture signify a group identity to be distinct from another. I agree generally that word policing CAN be pedantic or as far as cultural fascism. I agree that it’s wrong to encroach on the ownership of initiation of another culture and to question legitimacy CAN be disrespectful and far as cultural colonialism. I believe that there is undoubtedly legitimate cultural exchange. I also thought your assessment of what constitutes appropriation well thought out. I agree that it’s bad to dismiss one unfalsifiable belief as myth while venerating another as knowledge but i don’t think accepting them all as knowledge or Truth capital T is the way to get around this, not say this what you advocate but i struggle to think of another way to allot the distinguishing aspect of culture more than an identity marker. I think perhaps the dismantling of “tolerance” as shorthand for “people can believe whatever wrong way they want too” could allow greater acceptance of thing that are not scientifically verifiable as still capable of producing wisdom regardless of it not being readily verifiable knowledge. I should clarify that that the cultural marker doesn’t not have to but often does signify an ethnic or racial identity but it can also signify the abstract unification of the “essential” aspects of a practice/belief of dispersed peoples, which causes foliation within the shared identity. The individual sheets will weight the importance have different emphasis on the importance of racial/ethnic identity in accordance with precise strict adherence to “having your heart in the right place as acceptable precondition for laying claim to an identity or utilizing components of distinct culture as “outsider”. I would like to hear your thoughts on how it could be more than a marker in a context of comparing culture or a proposal of threshold or set of preconditions for culture to exceed or be different entirely than a marker of identity. “allow for playfulness but resist carnivalizing colonized peoples” well put, I think that’s an excellent take away from this video

[@JulianaAndersson]

Wow… I love how you logically navigate thru this touchy subject… well done

[@freesov]

the raised fist thing in particular is so funny because the extremely online people calling it appropriation have no understanding of history and didn't know that the black panthers used the raised fist because the black panthers were socialists

[@karstencollins6966]

Fantastic perspective on cultural appropriation! Definitely made me think deeper about this topic for sure.

[@mikahbee]

Some of the things brought up into the appropriation conversation are because of the history and respect of that. For example, smudging as a specific smoke cleansing practice. Of course smoke cleansing is global, but the name is meant for a generational knowledge, taught from one age group to another. It's not 100% initiatory but is guarded. But the further importance here is how so many indigenous spiritual practices were forbidden, illegal, even killed for. So by a non indigenous person calling their smoke cleansing "smudging", when it isn't the learned process, is disrespectful to the people and their history together.

[@marykayryan7891]

Another Great and Thoughtful video. Thank you.

[@rhiannonfugatt3269]

I think there is a lot of conflict for people in America who are not native here and are practicing Animism or Paganism. We tend to catch the most criticism for practicing a specific paganism from a specific area of the world that is not in America. While my family has only been here for two generations, I draw from my ancestral roots and languages in my practices. Some of the folkish people would rather us to become atheists and say we have no roots. And while I have associations with and have studied Lakota sundance, inepi lodge, how they pray etc, that is not my calling or path just never felt at home there. I respect their path but many of the practices and structure made me feel claustrophobic. Just get so sick of people saying you can't do this because you don't live here. You can't participate or call on these gods because these gods don't belong to the land you live on. While to some extent I can see some of that making sense to a certain extent. In other ways I do not. As someone who has practiced animism for over 3 decades my experience has been much more universal. Spend the time in nature, meet and commune with the spirits. But it is nice to have a name for them. Is the spirit of a pine tree different over here than it is over there? Do they each have separate spirits or are they all connected together in this vast network of mycelium? And if you can journey to other places and find the connection to all the spirits then the only illusion is separation, borders, fences. I find we are connected to everywhere and all things through something similar to mycelium, we are closely related to mycelium. I do get that there is cultural appropriation that is being done in a disrespectful way even if the people doing it are not aware. But, there are people who truly honor these spiritual traditions the best they can and are not taking them for granted and don't live in a Nordic country. Most my ancestry is Norman, Danish, and Lombard. The path of my ancestors is right here in the veins of my body but that doesn't mean I own them or anything at all. I am borrowing this body to be here. Getting back to people in America, many feel unrooted and lost. Without their roots in their ancestral lands many seek to make that connection and find themselves. Many go about it the wrong way and don't even know what they are doing yet. But because there is so much diversity here with the many different families, the way children are raised, traditions blended together you will have a Lakota/African practicing Celtic paganism. It happens here all the time. What can help people here who truly want to journey down the path or Nordic Animism?

[@heartlandheathen]

My family is from Appalachia so I feel you. Here is the thing, Gods travel. They travel with people, communities, cultural exchange, conquest, etc. Ancestors travel. They follow the family. Spirits of the land, well, yea they are pretty much planted. This is why an American pine spirit isn't exactly like a Norwegian pine spirit. However, we have tons of foreign and invasive plant, vegetable, and fruit species all around the world now. As people change location, the animistic spirits of the flora brought with them also change location. So, does something of the ancestral lands live on here besides us? Yes. It is unique, it is, as we are, molded by the North American landscape and spiritual environment...but I think that connection is still there. However, I still think all of our ultimate connection to East Africa is still there as well. I have been an American Asatruar since 1996. I just recently in the last few years allowed the animism aspect to really take hold. A part of my personal path has been Setianism and modern Kemeticism. Honestly, and perhaps it is the modern aspect of Setianism and the open nature of ancient Pharoanic religion, but the animism I can express here in America was more deep and immediate in a Kemetic context. I have always felt the Norse gods in a very general but still very real way here...but the Netjeru were pretty specific. I've seen Set in storm clouds, dreamt that he told one of his local forms was the red wasp. Easily saw Heru-Wer in the red-tailed Hawk, Heru-Sa-Aset in the Cooper's Hawk, Thoth in the crane, Taweret in the black bear, Nebt-Het in the weeping willow, etc. The trick is to come to terms with what part of your spiritual journey can be lived fully, and what part is more specific. It can be done though, and done right, in an American way.

[@rhiannonfugatt3269]

@@MarcusSjolander While that would be something I would love to do... I care for many rescue animals and have a sanctuary for them I am responsible for. So even getting away for a few days is difficult and costs a ton of money to arrange. Money better spent on their health and care.

[@mushymass9716]

@Marcus I disagree with you that white Americans are creating this state for themselves. (I make the distinction because many American cultures aren't white.) I invite you to put yourself in my Euro-American shoes for a moment. I've been looking for a spiritual "path" of my own for a while now, and one thing I hear quite often from non-European Americans is that I should do what they did, and look back towards my own roots. When I do that, I'm told that I should focus on where I am now. You see how this is? Nobody wants us. Also - 2 generations might be a long time for you, in your traditions, but for others it's not. There are quite a few Nations here - currently residing mainly in the Northwestern area of the States/Canada, I believe - that have a cultural concept of "7 generations". And sometimes, a generation for those cultures isn't just the space between a parent and child, but the space between a grandparent and grandchild. In other words, the original poster, within this frame of logic, is still part of the first generation of her family to be here.

[@rhiannonfugatt3269]

@@mushymass9716 I am animist so connecting with the landvættir in the places near where I live is what I do. As an animist I don't see the separation that many people do because of culture. But culture and spirituality are not the same thing most often. And what spirits and deities are important to "a people" is dictated by the necessities and priorities of their daily lives. When people were hunter gatherers there were more goddesses that played more important roles. When their lands were invaded and they had to take up weapons then warrior gods became more important, and so on. And their social caste also affected which deities they called upon. Farmers called upon agricultural deities, royalty called upon warrior dieties, etc. Fast forward to today, we don't worry about whether or not we will die during winter if our harvest was not enough. Most people do not worry about bombs being dropped on their homes or invaders breaking into their homes and killing them.

[@brianbown7332]

Thanks for the insight on this people. I’ve been in the same boat. Displaced American man looking for his roots. I got answers here today. Not easy ones, but valid. Best to you all.

[@bellebreeze]

Very intelligent content. As a translator, I wonder how expressing something from one language into another can be problematic. I think people take themselves way too seriously, today.

[@chrisd1]

definitely thought provoking! Thank you

[@beepboop204]

Grey Owl in Canada was hugely influential. i had a long term relationship with an Ojibway woman and there is a big issue of false ancestry claims by academics in Canada.

[@Heathen-Sun]

I feel like so much of what you said should be common sense yet it isn’t. An argument that seems to happen a lot is misunderstanding the differences between assimilation and appropriation. When it comes up I do get irritated with it bc people often (these days) consider everything to be appropriation. I think, what should you do then, ask that all the cultures around the world that have existed for thousands of years to quit their practices bc an aspect of their cultures were assimilated? You’d erase thousands of people’s identities if you did that. When it comes to things like feathers, I found a hawk feather and loved it so much bc I had never found a hawk feather and it was special to me. I felt like it was a gift from a hawk for whatever reasons I felt it was special. When sharing what an amazing gift I received from the Hawk, I was immediately met with criticism saying that I was not allowed to have it bc it belongs to the Natives and was told I had to give it back or be fined. I was like ??? That’s the stupidest thing I ever heard. The hawk doesn’t belong to anyone. The feather was found. I did not strip the feather from the hawk. I didn’t hunt it down or chase it to acquire it and I most certainly didn’t sell it. It was simply a feather. I could go on and on but it frustrates me when parts of my own spirituality/beliefs are being tarnished by the idea that Nature can be owned by any group of people. I can understand the difference between exploiting or diminishing a cultures sacred plants, resources and/or rituals and simply accepting or honoring my own space/place with Nature and the land. It some ways it feels a lot like social justice warriors become much like the oppressors they want to destroy. Idk though. Maybe I am wrong but I don’t think I am.

[@AncestralMedicine]

Bless you, thanks for this. Hope you and family are excellent. -Daniel

[@Sacred.Grove.Tender]

Well said, good sir. Wonderfully articulated and garners a solidarity raised fist in agreement. I have been doing my own amateur researching and anthropological studies, and truly from the beginning we are a species of cross cultural sharing and exchange. It was once seen as a compliment to have one mimic, or attempt to reproduce something whether it be pottery, clothes, weave patterns, hair styles etc. It was an inspiration rather than appropriation, though this statement is not negating the existence of the occurrence. Respect must be shown for the culture and the item/style/reproduction of sorts should be respected and honored the proper way, but to say that everything is off limits unless you are from that culture (I didn't know it had a name until today!) which apparently is Identitarianism. It makes the whole process foul instead of the beautiful exchange it really is, when done properly. Kudos for absolutely rocking such a controversial subject. I am in complete agreement and have several new vocabulary words to look up this evening 😂

[@Ravenoustu9]

It’s funny how you bring up Dia de Los muertos, being half Hispanic (Salvadorian) and Norman myself personally we just view this holiday as just another day, though it has its significance for lost loved ones it’s not something we hold “sacred”or have practices for and the same goes for any of the other holidays of the same caliber. Though I might not be knowledgeable in the subject of “culture appropriation” despite being a halfbreed living here in America has actually showed me all the right and wrongs ways in taking appropriation to one’s culture and practices. Personally despite being a “follower” of the Norse believes I never had to deal with these kinds of issues, but that could be attributed to being distant and wanting to learn and evaluate at my own pace. A very interesting and good topic good sir !

[@thitringblbitsch2102]

Så fin snak. Jeg havde brug for at høre det her. Tak

[@ajg942]

I see it the way you see it, and appreciate the articulacy with which you describe it.

[@kris.tina3-m7p]

Excellent video!!! Loved it. Something I’ll add: I often hear that as a euro person, to engage in cultural exchange can be ok so long as there are ongoing efforts made to dismantle white supremacy. I also hear that it’s disrespectful to utilize others’ cultures for financial or social gain. Both comments are direct results of the fact that many decolonial cultures have a spiritual worldview and spiritual infusion in all areas of life as a key component to them. Makes sense- if you’re gonna honor the culture, you have to recognize that it wasn’t used for financial profit, and it wasn’t used in tangent with being avoidant of white supremacy - rather, instead, used to combat hierarchy and oppression by recognize the spirit and autonomy of all beings

[@howlinthewilderness]

Great job Rune! I've had the same arguments with cultural segregationists for some time. Nice to hear you put it all together so compellingly. - Brian

[@inlesinlet]

This is oddly affirmative to watch. For many years now, I've been stuck in a massive catch-22. I'm highly interested in, and drawn towards, traditional indigenous Sámi practices. For years, I have denied myself the opportunity to actually learn in order to develop personal practice. On one hand, I am a Norwegianised Sámi person with every right, theoretically, to engage in Sámi practices. I have a right to vote in Sametinget, so surely I am "Sámi enough". On the other hand, I feel I am absolutely *not* "Sámi enough", as a lot of my ancestors *appear* to have been Norwegian-speaking, and some ancestral lines I'm simply not able to trace, so I don't know. I feel like in order for me to be respectful, I can't learn from books, I must learn from living people who have directly inherited the practices I want to learn about. But there are barely any of these people left, and I certainly don't know any, and I don't even know how I would get to know any. So even though I can vote in Sametinget, I am not Sámi enough, and even if I *was* Sámi enough, then there wouldn't be any respectful way for me of learning, so I can't even try to approach it. This is what I've convinced myself of, for years now. Looking at it kind of from the outside, it actually seems like I'm internalizing the voice of the oppression and allowing it to continue. I'm finding excuse after excuse for why I *can't pursue* the thing I want to pursue, the thing which have been oppressed for hundreds of years, the thing which people have been burned to death for practicing. I don't think Mari Boine would agree with my train of thought here. If my only way of learning is to read books written by Sámi people, because I am unable to connect in person with Sámi people who could teach me these things, then am I really doing anything wrong? I tell myself that I am. But is this really anything more than a limiting belief? It's like I've gaslit myself into believing that I would be appropriating my own culture 😰

[@NordicAnimism]

Hey @inlesinlet. Thanks for your comments 😊. I recommend making contact with the man I talk to in this little film. His name is Jungle Svonni kzbin.info/www/bejne/epamiX6Ff8aZeqcsi=K6q2dOmpQUJV5joN

[@marykayryan7891]

Your point that one should not assume unanimity within groups about the issues you discuss is a very good one. Some Native people in the US encourage cultural and spiritual exchange and others really do not like it. I tend to go with the people who say "no" because I am so cognizant of how much we have rolled over people's boundaries--geographic, psychological, cultural etc. But, as you say, cultural exchange is and has been a given of history for a very long time. I suppose we should all just tread carefully with love and respect for each other.

[@davidgough3512]

the modern powwow tradition is definitely and unapolageticly "pan-Indian", usually starting with a nod to native military veterans and usually with acknowledgements honoring elders and forebears of local family/clans. Non -natives are usually offered some rounds of participation in the dancing. Doesn't matter who you are, going to the powwow, eating the foods, enjoying the vendors' wares with common sense respect and courtesy is acceptable and welcomed.

[@end0skeleton404]

For sure Fruit of the loom, it's more tied to nature! bahahaha

[@thehorriblebright]

There is a very funny episode in Swedish history. In 1817, the famous poet Esaias Tegnér, wrote a poem about languages. In this he ruminate on a variety of languages, being wildly denigrating to Danish, and extolling the supremacy of Swedish, "the language of glory and heroes" ("Ärans och hjältarnas språk"). What's funny is that only the "och" meaning, "and" is not a loanword from German.

[@PrincessNinja007]

Indigenous aestheticism I think is more an accusation of intent. About using imagery specifically because it looks indigenous rather than whether or not it actually is

[@NordicAnimism]

valid point about the intent! - but do we agree that something can not strictly speaking "look indigenous" ?

[@PrincessNinja007]

@@NordicAnimism Very true, but there's definitely a heavily curated and fictional idea in the zeitgeist of what "indigenous" is assumed to look like. People do draw from that image, and it only exists in bad faith so it inherently can't be used respectfully

[@MithMathy]

I think it's important to not sweep over this phenomenon with too broad of a brush and analyze elements following the points given at the end of the video. One problem with indigenous aestheticism is the production of native looking items for profit that doesn't help the communities where that imagery arises from or actively diverts money away from those communities. E.g., selling something "indigenous looking" at a gift shop and perhaps even falsely labeling it as indigenous crafted. I would call that appropriation, and add that calling out companies or even individual artists for doing shady shit is totally appropriate! If someone wants to incorporate indigenous-inspired motifs in creations for their own personal use or adorn their home with indigenous-crafted objects that are exchanged for fairly, then I think that is *not* culturally appropriative. Another problem that can arise with indigenous aestheticism is that people within communities may feel a need to sell items/art with culturally sacred symbols (or modified versions of those) that aren't supposed to be widely shared as a way to make money to survive. The problem there is less the "market" for objects with an indigenous aesthetic but is instead the overarching economic and political systems that pressure someone to do that and devalue their own sacred cultural symbols. (I think this is an important distinction because too often we are directed to blame people and feel ourselves divided from them as a distraction from blaming and attacking the real source of oppression.) Most recently I heard that a television program actually portrayed a corn pollen ceremony that is never supposed to be witnessed by someone outside the community that practices it (it's only for those initiated). I don't know if I would call this appropriation or not. But I would definitely argue that it's a symptom of broken relations and economic oppression.

[@NordicAnimism]

@@MithMathy Thanks for this! It is a bit of a balancing act, - saying stuff that makes sense, yet making a video which is short, tight and funny enough that people can be bothered to actually follow. This video is allready faaaar to heavy for most. I already see people reacting seemingly without having seen more that a snippet. But yes it is not impossible that I should have shifted more focus onto this particular topic, though there is a whole number of important issues that are being swept over in order to avoid a 3 hr long video. For instance, I had originally included a long reflection on the interesting and historically important example of Rock n’Roll. An expression whose movement from black - to white American culture imv has both legitimate but also extremely appropriative aspects. Also let me just say that with "indigenous aesthetecism" I am not talking about actual indigenous patterns, actual indigenous art, actual indigenous craft and commerce. You might totally be right that making money on indigenous art can be appropriative (unless you belong to the group in question). But this is a somewhat different issue from what I am talking about. What I am talking about is more like..... - those young women painting runes in their faces in ways appears to dialogue with common notions of indigeneity. Or musicians doing stage performances that dialogues with their own cultural past, but smacks of indigeneity. However - its just important to keep in mind that 1) -There IS NO such thing as something identifiable as a global indigenous aestheticism. There might of course be traditional art, ornamentation and expression belonging this or that specific group. But that is a different issue. Maya textile patterns are Maya. And Estonian is Estonian. There isn’t something intrinsic to these expressions that makes one of them more indigenous than the other. -and- 2) What actual flows of ownership are implied in this criticism of using "indigenous aesthetecism" ? - whatever the flows are, they certainly aren't unambiguous. Let me take an example. I have encountered criticism of my friend Maria Franz from the band @Heilung for wearing antlers in performance and that should supposedly kindasorta "looks indigenous". But how exactly does X (typically American) voice claim the right to criticize Marias legitimacy as a norwegian to dialogue with her own cultural heritage where horned (at times antler) headgear is a 3000 year old living tradition in Northern Europe, possibly longer. See my point!?

[@davidgough3512]

i suggest visiting a few N.American powwows and observe the detribalized categories of dance, costume and foods. Opening ceremonies invariably honor military vets. Non natives are usually invited to participate in some dance rounds. It's really an eye-opener.

[@thebikerwifewitch]

Great video Rune!

[@wyrdlock]

What is your opening song

[@singam7436]

Tbh, while I broadly agree on the use of words, I'd argue there are some instances where there is a level of violence done to the original traditions. Something like what has happened to the word Karma and chakra, or the way in which words like Guru and Swami have in the west almost become terms of derision, while the original traditions (including the diaspora and convert communities that practice them in Euro-American culture) still use these as titles of respect. In these cases, in the case of Dharmikas, it harms us, both those born into it, and those who joined our traditions later in life. On the other hand, words like Satyagraha, which have maintained something akin to their traditional meaning, or Avatar, where its meaning has been extended, but not in a way that demeans the practices of the community of practitioners are still completely fine, as was shown in the video.

[@NordicAnimism]

Thank you for this! - It is a super valid point! I would say that such examples of words would actually fall under the definition of cultural appropriation that i am tentatively trying to outline in the end of the video. Because in the case of "guru" there actually is an aspect of the original piece of culture (which in this case is a word, with a specific meaning) being compromised, by the exchange

[@singam7436]

​@@NordicAnimismYeah, that makes sense. Hopefully, as someone whose traditions have dealt with cultural appropriation, i would hope that instead of sweeping statements, people would just strive to understand context and relationality before taking anything (that's how we get rich, insightful cultural exchange like with Greco-Buddhism)

[@NordicAnimism]

​@@singam7436Yub! - for instance, I think we should be careful using the expression "taking something" in sweeping statements. Before that concept can be applied we need to understand better one particular aspect of context and relation. That is cultural ownership. And btw. I also know how cultural appropriation feels. :-) - just sayin... - Check this video here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/maGQm5mYo7Vmfbs

[@singam7436]

@@NordicAnimism Yeah, Nazi appropriation of Germanic imagery is a whole, incredibly tragic, thing. At least your good work here also helps fight the Fascist attempt to seize these symbols for themselves. On the use of the word taking, I personally blame my lack of English fluency for not parsing it properly.

[@jackieweltman1760]

I'm....I'm bathing in the amazingness of this cogent, insightful analysis. I feel like i need to just sit back with some bourbon right now and just, like, feel the glow of this.

[@NordicAnimism]

Haha! -Thank you very much for the nice words! :-)

[@MaudMargretheRex]

“Carnivalation”” is by its roots, the turning udside Down all structures of power? And therefor also a ligid cultural essense, and perhaps the playfulness used as Distortion and renewal? Its very complicated, in just our time here. But it Will find and reveal something useful, in its own time. Whilst awaiting that, we Can investigate, with concern.

[@DeepDarkSamurai]

Native Americans and Eurasians separated less than 30k years ago from the same origin populations. They are from the same source in the great north, and so many old stories and ancient traditions especially animist and ancient celestial knowledge and spiral symbology still continued onward in both peoples. So in many ways we are of the same source and it's seen very clearly to anyone not wrapped up in propaganda of the last 100 years

[@GothiGrimwulff]

I can give you a concrete definition of what cultural appropriation and cultural exchange is. I would also add cultural evolution to that list. It all has to do with power dynamics. If somebody is in a position of power over another culture, like a colonizing culture versus an indigenous culture, than the colonizing culture will only ever steal from the culture that does not have power. Cultural exchange is when the power is even so both sides of the exchange. Neither are coercing in any way shape or form. It is an exchange of cultural signifiers, technology, etc which often leads to something better in the long run and is beneficial for both parties. Then there's natural cultural evolution. Which we see very often because most cultures come from some kind of ancient starting place. And because of this we will see similar things within disparate cultures. So really it all just comes down to balances of power. As for what you're calling identitarians, Those people are actually coming from a place of white supremacy even though they don't understand that. Something that happens with white people because of the history of blood quantums is that we will look for a certain melonin content of an individual in order to signify them being part of a certain group. When in reality close practices require initiation, they do not require blood quantums. Which is where the folkish get things wrong. I actually just went over all of this in a video I did about Harry Potter recently.

[@NordicAnimism]

Power assymmetries do play a role yes, but I disagree that they power asymmetry just exhausts the issue. The problems with that position is that 1) It is factually incorrect, because it bypasses what actually constitutes cultural appropriation and that is cultural ownership. It seems to go with the common assumption that cultural ownership is an evenly distributed constant thing. Its not! And it follows a definition of cultural appropriation can not bypass a definition of ownership 2) It bypasses the fact that power asymmetry is ubiquitous. In reality there is rarely such thing as an even exchange relation 3) That implies the isolation of euro-descendants into universal whiteness and BIPOC into exotic seclusion and thereby it upholds problematic colonial hierarchies.

[@GothiGrimwulff]

@@NordicAnimism @Nordic Animism @Nordic Animism >cultural ownership This was actually covered with my statement about natural cultural evolution. We share many things because of syncretism (exchange) as well as stemming from the same roots. The world tree being one good example. We see many cultures with a tree connecting realms, or a tree of life/knowledge. The tree of the Bible coming from earlier Jewish lore, the tree the Buddha sat under to gain enlightenment the cosmic tree in Tengriism, and of course Yggdrassil. No one culture owns it, but merely has a different perception of a likely older concept. >Power asymmetry is ubiquitous Yes. We cannot truly measure power differences, or the mutually beneficial outcome of that exchange. However, there's a start contrast between power held by a conquering colonizing force and two cultures coming together to trade, have diplomatic relations, or commune in some way. There's a big difference between what the Ptolemaic Greeks did to rewrite our understanding of the Egyptian religion (to a point affecting us to this day) and the exchange of a lot art and culture we see throughout time. While we can't measure it to an exact incriminate, we can still see a wide contrast in power differences. >upholds problematic colonial hierarchies How? People all over the world exchange ideas constantly. Art, culture, technology. We see it on social media all the time. And it's typically far more organic than appropriation. It has nothing to do with the actual government and bourgeois class (which really is the same strata) which makes up those hierarchies. The commodification of culture is at the center of it. The bourgeois reap all the wealth, giving scraps to the working class and originators of the IP and or culturally distinct things. And they only spit that out based on a pandering algorithm of what makes the most money. Disney does it constantly. Even. Going so far to extend copyright laws to maintain a monopoly on properties that by all ethical extensions shouldn't belong to them. That's real cultural theft.

[@StevenHughes-hr5hp]

Is a Renaissance Faire or a Civil War reinactment cultural appropraition too?

[@NordicAnimism]

did you watch the reflection ?

[@loungeblogger]

two honest questions: how do you distinguish between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation? and why is it not considered cultural appropriation when people around the world dress up or proclaim themselves as vikings?

[@NordicAnimism]

"Cultural appreciation" is not a dimmesion that I have drawn on in this reflection. To me the difficult (and important) distinction goes between cultural appropriation and legitimate cultural exchange. Viking larping is not an issue taht I have thought about ... hmmmm Perhaps it could in fact (perhaps) be seen as appropriation because it is closely tied to identitarianism. The question is whose identitarianism ? - the concept of "vikings" was invented by a Danish historian with the explicitly formulated motivation of creating nationalism. But since the concept has travelled all over the world, and to many it has become a kindof marker of roots euro-descended culture. So is it appropriation then?! - I actually don't think so. The historical material is so deep in the past that it isn't significantly closer to a Dane than to an American. However, I think that RIGHT WING mining of Norse material is probably a clear case of appropriation. The reason is that it actually undermines those kinds of cultural expression while depriving cultural groups from access to them.

[@loungeblogger]

@@NordicAnimism so time is a factor? it’s appropriation when the culture is still active but not if the culture is long past? I’ve been trying to wrap my head around this topic for a long time. concerning appreciation vs appropriation I think that having dreadlocks as a white person or wearing asian inspired dresses as a non asian because you think it’s pretty can be considered appreciation. because condemning this would just cause more cultural division. what do you think?

[@NordicAnimism]

@@loungeblogger I am not sure exactly how and to what extend time is a factor - It probably is. Like ... if you were to consider non-scandinavian viking larping an appropriation, then (imo) you'd have to first see vikings as an identity marker and then consider if this marking of identity is being undermined by mexican viking reenactors..... .you know what ?! - amma call bullshit on myself. i don't think that can qualify as appropriative. But yea time... the question then becomes about ownership of the past and fluctuations of identity categories. Did people living in Southern Scandinavia 2000 years ago consider themselves as "Danes" - and if so, did it mean something to them that can even be compared to the current identity - if not, then can contemporary danes really claim cultural ownership over - say, iron age artistic expression.... - see the complexities ? And yes. I have also been struggling to wrap my mind about it. i really think the important thing is to hone in on two topics, ownership and exchange. Both needs to be protected

[@loungeblogger]

@@NordicAnimism how do today’s norse pagans fall into all of this? are you referring to them as larps? there is a legit community of animists who have chosen the norse gods as their pantheon without being right wing lunatics. do they have the right to call appropriation when other people cosplay as vikings? I actually think so.

[@NordicAnimism]

@@loungeblogger no, no! Paganism is not larping. In fact, it might not be a good word. Though I do think there is an actual grey zone between larping and reenactment

[@SuperPastorgary]

Excellent!

[@ZiaElohka]

I would like to know what you think about the following. Many years ago a lady posted a video of herself doing a kind of belly dance on a Native American sacred site. I called it cultural appropriation, because she was there without permission of the custodians of the site and because belly dance was not the way the Spirits there should be honoured. She answered that she had asked the Spirits for their permission and that a sacred place in the landscape can not belong to just certain people. Nowadays I'm not so sure what to think about these things. I still don't like hippies doing their thing at places that are sacred to others. But on the other hand they mean well and rituals do change over time.

[@michaelpotts4001]

But yes I agree with you for all the reason you outline

[@marykayryan7891]

I agree with your analysis. I would say, however, that it is the ultimate irony while white people literally tried to wipe out indigenous peoples, cultures and languages, they now want to adopt native practices and words because they are seen as "cool.' For myself, my rule of thumb is that I listen to the groups themselves and do as they ask. So, for instance, Native North Americans and particularly the Lakota and related groups have asked us NOT to engage in their spiritual practices on our own as white people. So I would not. But in South America there is a huge indigenous trade in ayahuasca ceremonialism. I myself would not engage in that because it feels wrong to me for me, but if the native people there say it is OK, then so be it. I practiced Chinese medicine because the Chinese were very much about exporting what they saw as a treasure of their culture to the world. So I am OK with doing that. I think the whole thing about anti-racism is to stop thinking that what we white people think is what is important and how it should be and we might want to listen to what the people we have decimated around the world are saying and asking of us. I am sure you would agree. (Of course, such groups do not always agree, but that is yet another kettle of fish.)

[@nativeandindigenuscraftcre433]

Hi thanks for sharing but i speak kayenkeha wish is Mohawk language and culture identity is important to us indigenous people and eagle feathers ate errands and giving though ceremony to that person and our names are exra nickname wish is our indigenous name there is mush more about it

[@bullvinetheband7260]

Wow you are really smart. I would ask said culture if I could make their knowledge public for safety sake. That's just being polite.

[@NordicAnimism]

yes, In the cases where there are entities that can be asked. Then definetely! But (See 29:07) it isn't allways. Because "cultures" aren't actually the kind of things that you CAN ask about stuff. Because they are composed by many people with conflicting ideas and interests

[@johntd1659]

What about the cultural appropriation of Norse mythology

[@NordicAnimism]

There's a few videos on this channel about this topic - kzbin.info/www/bejne/kJW4gYOEqtisbKMfeature=shared

[@michaelpotts4001]

Just a thought. As an American we have lost our souls. We hare so mixed as different people we tried to lose our ancestary people and forge a new people. I am from a state where a lot of people had native american, and many had things to celibrate it. And I my self is Scot/Irish/German. I grew up with German tradition. But conversly a German does not see me as aGerman, so what is left me. I know there is bad intent in people but I think modern people are looking for who they are.

[@ramadelarosa]

Okay, since words can't be appropriated, then I am a medical Doctor and a graduate of Harvard Medical School. LOL I am Indigenous and I know better than to use the word Totem outside of it's cultural context because this word, "Totem" like the word "Doctor", is null and void outside the parameters in which it exists.

[@NordicAnimism]

Hey @Ramadelarosa Your analogy with the word ”doctor” is wildly misleading. You could indeed use the word “doctor” in different ways. You could use it like I use the word “totem” (I use it as a general term meaning “human to other-than-human kinship culture”). For instance you could start from the point that “doctor” originally just means “a teacher”, (i.e before the word started speeding around most human languages to such an extend that it is probably one of the most widely dispersed loan words). You could apply the term as a general term meaning a person with a high competence level. Imv that would be a fully legitimate operation. For instance you could say in my analytical langauge "doctor" can be applied to totem clan elders who have high competence levels. that wider use of the word "doctor" might catch on and you would have legitimately adopted a word from Latin (by way of English) as a label that might be particularly usefull for specific analytic purposes. But this is not what you do when you call yourself a doctor of medicine from Harvard. You are claiming a TITLE, a very specific situated status based on a whole complex of social and cultural processes of learning, competences, and social acknowledgement. That way of claiming a social status has no comparison with the way I use the word “totem”. Claiming to be a Harvard doctor of medicine amounts to saying: “I am the Earl of Surrey” or “I am an Anishinaabe fox clan elder”. Of course, any child can see that this doesn’t make any sense, but it is also wildly misleading as a general image of that ubiquitous way that humans loan word each others' languages

[@ramadelarosa]

@@NordicAnimism I have to disagree. And I believe many Native Americans would agree with me, especially Anishinabe. Totem comes through a specific cultural ritual much like an educational designation. You may not respect Anishinabe the same way you do academic institutions, but to me they both represent houses of knowledge that one must be initiated into through the proper channels. I will not argue with you or have you mansplain me how language is used. I will not be listening to anymore your videos. Goodbye.

[@NordicAnimism]

@@ramadelarosa If the time should come again that you want to criticize someone, who has a fairly high competence level and has spent months preparing a well weighted reflection of a complex matter, then I suggest that you take the time to actually understand what is being said, before you shoot of your criticism. Had you done this here, you would have seen that your critique has zero relation to what I am trying to say. But interestingly…. In fact, symptomatically for internet communications, its not just that your critique is targeting something completely unrelated to my position. It is also that your criticism is aimed at something that I am ardently, intensely, explicitly and repeatedly disavowing in the very communication that you are criticising. It is a quite remarkable example of how unrelational internet communication can be Had you taken the time just to reach the end of my totem argumentation before shooting of your critique, you had heard me saying this (10:21). Had you reached the end of my video you’d heard me say this (32:44), and had you taken the time to actually read what I say in my previous comment, you’d have noticed that I explicitly pose the social status as a totem clan elder in parallel to the social status of a doctor as equal examples of social status based in cultural knowledge complexes. This kind of argument where there is just some fluffy judgemtalism flying around and zero attempt to even start from the most minimalist understanding of the other is extremely characteristic of internet debates today. The key word is un-relatedness. Our social media existences place us in a very specific kind of unrelatedness. If you ever in your life have valued any ideology about being in relation, then consider how extremely anti-relational your criticism is. Had you had the most minimal dedication to try to understand my position perhaps even in order to criticize it, you would have at least taken the time to at least make sure that your criticism actually targets what I am saying in stead of just shooting of in unrelation towards some distant galaxy that has less than zero point of contact with what I am trying to say.

[@ramadelarosa]

@@NordicAnimism people disagree, you don't have to take it personally. That is your choice.

[@NordicAnimism]

@@ramadelarosa - Of course people disagree. If you look in the comments above you'll see Ciara.Chaya, making the argument, that perhaps I should have expanded more on one particular perspective. That could be right. Perhaps I should have gone down that road more. THAT is making an argument - taking stuff personally on the other hand, - that is when you start saying stuff like: "I will not be listening to anymore your videos." or "you are mansplaining". The notion of "mansplaining" is particularly interesting when we talk about online debates because the concept rejects someones voice based on WHO they are and that is inherently personal. It cannot not be personal, because it essentially amounts to telling somebody something along the lines of: - "As you and I are now disaggreeing with eachother, then my words are fine, but since you are a man, you can only express yourself through inferior condescension. Your voice is worth less than mine because you are exactly the kind of person that you are" Pose an actual argument that actually engages what I am saying! - then I will be more than happy to disagree. But when it comes to me being a man, majority, high education, hetero etc. etc. and drawing on all that personal stuff as a basis for rejecting what I say, then I have a bit of a reflection on this here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d4eWnWavr8eGhKs

[@nativeandindigenuscraftcre433]

Hi this video dont help any one and i know a lot about it thanks again and good luck 🤞

[@edj8008]

Woke just means awere of systemic opression but the word has completely lost it's meaning.

[@NordicAnimism]

Did you watch the video?

[@nebwachamp]

Lgbt subject matter

[@ct5465]

Cultural appropriation is a bunch of crap. Every single person, culture, race, nation copies something. If it’s not to be shared, then it has to stand for everyone, equally. Don’t do anything that might have been done by anyone else but God forbid anyone mention Norse paganism shouldn’t be bastardized by everyone and anyone.

[@NordicAnimism]

Did you watch the video ? Doesn't sound like it

[@ct5465]

@@NordicAnimism I did actually. Did you take my comment as an attack or something? That’s a negative reflection to add to random comments. Lol I was just mentioning the extreme appropriation that happens with Norse paganism and how people think it’s fine but others aren’t.

[@NordicAnimism]

@@ct5465 cool but... Did you actually watch the video?