Lee Baker and Dr. James White Debate New Testament Reliability

Lee Baker is a former Mormon bishop and former Evangelical who has become a vocal critic of Christianity. Dr. James White is the director of Alpha & Omega Ministries and an elder at Apologia Church in Phoenix, Arizona.
This debate took place at Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah (www.gospelutah.org), on October 5, 2019.

[@saintg4fun829]

Lee Baker helped guide me out of Mormonism with many of his videos in Manti... He was on the right path to Christ, but he has clearly lost it all on the slippery slope out of Mormonism. Most leave and become outright atheist. Sad really. Ironically people like Lee led me to Dr. White and Jeff Durbin. Glory to God for finding me and bringing me to true Christianity.

[@robbiebobbie2011]

Saintg 4fun call into the atheist experience and talk to Matt Dillahunty

[@robbiebobbie2011]

Randy T the bible didn’t drop out of heaven fully written

[@arizona972]

@Vine 101 so true!

[@lkae4]

Robert Daniels Dillahunty was exposed by David Wood. His secular humanism only applies to unselfish people, lol

[@Cahrub]

As someone who struggled similarly to Lee, this man has gone through a lot and is tossed around from belief to belief with nothing to hold on to. At first, this struggle is incredibly heartbreaking and traumatizing, and if you don't rely on Christ to help you through even these times of doubt, it'll slowly turn into bitterness and anger towards Him. Fortunately for me, God had me the whole time and I eventually came to rest in His arms, I'll be praying the same for Lee.

[@ancientpathstv]

We're working on a video debunking the claims of Rabbi Tovia Singer, who has fed Lee's bitterness.

[@motorTranz]

"Always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth." II Timothy 3;7

[@randycadkins]

Yes, exactly!

[@flhxs8364]

I couldn't think of a more appropriate Scripture for Mr. Baker. Hopefully, he will find his way through the darkness. Thanks!

[@perplexalot1615]

The dude started out humble and admitted (then demonstrating) that he didn’t really know what he was taking about and was willing to learn from Dr. White but then quickly devolved into a hot mess. Wow.

[@andrewmedina7588]

I don’t often agree with Dr. White, but man, he’s doing God’s work with these debates.

[@lindanicholason878]

# AMEN & PRAISE GOD

[@danielmann5427]

@Oners82 - stop trolling and slandering

[@SickestDisciple]

Oners82 well at least you tried. Imagine attempting to defame Dr. White, and failing. Where can we view any of your debates against scholars?

[@lallidutoit7720]

Jesus is God❤️

[@isaacleillhikar4566]

Tu viens de France?

[@johnny_favorite]

Son of God.

[@Kyle-vb3fz]

Lee Baker, still a Mormon at heart

[@divinenatureonline]

Prayers for mr. Baker. May God bring humility and clarity to him.

[@fredjalal5584]

TRUNEWS 16 he needs some good guidance almost evry Bible deferent from the other and he believe in one God only one that what Jesus said the lord our lord is only one not 2 or 3

[@divinenatureonline]

Fred Jalal So you’re just as confused as him? To believe that, you have to ignore 2/3 of the Bible where it speaks of The Holy Spirit as God; as He, etc. You’re not reading your Bible to submit to it, you’re reading it up to the point where it makes sense to you.

[@divinenatureonline]

Oners82 Uh, May who ever you’re referring to bring you typing skills. 🤣

[@divinenatureonline]

Oners82 I take it, you’re even more confused than Mr. Baker. At least he held it together better than you.

[@divinenatureonline]

Victor Yatall Fortunately, you’re not the judge of the earth just the judge of your shorts... LOLOLOLLL 🤣🤣🤣

[@jjjjjjjjj323]

Lee is all over the place. It makes me wonder if he realized that James was making good points and was changing the subject in response.

[@punishingatheismofficial9790]

James White is a powerhouse of knowledge in his field.

[@lindanicholason878]

I Thank GOD For USING Dr. James White...TO EDUCATE, TEACH, PREACH TRUTH...& EXPOSE SATAN'S LIES !!

[@JesusGarcia-Digem]

A true heavy hitter!!!

[@EricBadong]

Dr. White truly is a gift to the church.

[@catmanpro]

Dr. White did this debate on the fly. No prep notes. #heavyhitting

[@JJvideoman]

Lawrence Bautista he's done it so many times I don't think he needs much anymore lol he seems to understand Mormonism better than most mormona

[@mannyfnsc29]

Mormonism really screwed this man.. May God turn his heart towards Him and set him free.

[@jasonbabilonia3037]

Amen

[@witforjesus]

@Vine 101 Lee himself grew up as a RC before he converted to Mormonism. That's probably where he got his "Catholic church from Christ" comment in the debate. It seems he never got everything from RC cleared out of his head, then became Mormon and now a non-Jew "Noahide." What a mess!

[@robbiebobbie2011]

Manny Fonseca prove there is your god

[@PaDutchRunner]

Vine 101 Wow....you should start a youtube channel!! I’m sure you have much to share that would be helpful!

[@DarrelSimon]

In much the same manner as Protestantism really screwed you? May the FACTS turn your heart towards the TRUTH and set you FREE! What is the truth? The truth is/are the facts correctly interpreted! You cannot have truth without any facts!

[@revros91]

Perhaps Mr. Baker can tackle why a 2x4 is only 3.25 inches wide. The history of the redacted .75 inches is something the common homeowner knows nothing about but lives securely believing their house is made out of a whole 4 inch board.

[@EthanRHolden]

A couple things are very clear in this debate: 1. Mr. Baker stepped WAY outside of his element on this one. He learned just enough about the subject to make him feel like an expert, but when he had to put that knowledge up against a real expert...he simply appeared to be confused and aggitated. 2. Mr. Baker does not understand (or chose to ignore) the rules of debate. Debates are VERY difficult to watch when debaters refuse to follow the format. 3. Jason Wallace seemed greatly amused at many points, and that made me laugh and enjoy the debate. (:

[@robbiebobbie2011]

Ethan Holden it all made sense to me why does proving a god have to be about trying to prove it philosophically.....that is religions last stronghold because the bible sure can’t do it and people’s experiences have no explanatory power

[@joshsantillan5738]

Before this vid I actually watched Dr. White's preaching on the unity of the bible(Apologia Church) and its amazing that when one stands in defense of the faith one must first in his/her mind and heart view God as HOLY HOLY HOLY. Dr. White really in his words and conduct truly displayed that in his defense of the faith. May God be praised in HIS tri-une perfection.

[@GailOwens]

I was a Mormon for ten years, I came out into nothing. I got saved in the charismatic movement- they saw me coming a mile off. I went straight into cult ministry- then became a pastor. Sadly very few ex cultists know the grace of God, most of us have never met Jesus, we carry our baggage with us, and work ourselves to death in order to please God. Then when things go wrong we say God doesn't love us. I was working myself intio the ground and I had twins borm premature both died, I lost my faith for 8 years, I was so angry with God, I felt God owed me and I deserved better. I basically became an Atheist- for 8 years very atagonistic to anything remotely Christian. Then about 18 months ago, God finally broke me down and I finally met Jesus and understood he loved me and it was all grace.

[@ancientpathstv]

Thank you for your note. I grieve with you how so many are misled, but I also rejoice with you at God's grace to undeserving sinners like us.

[@GailOwens]

@@ancientpathstv Thank you Pastor God is good, all of grace all of God none of man, no good in me, all of him!

[@raymorrow1491]

I could be completely wrong, but lee baker has always struck me as someone who with a rebellious spirit needs conflict in his life. Conflict seems to motivate him and his beautiful poor wife to follow along. After Mormonism burned him, he is looking for conflicts in everything he sees. I hope this debate humbled him

[@AJTramberg]

James White mopped the floor. I was waiting for it, and it happened at 1:17:30- "It rings of mormonism". Bakers house of cards collapses completely there. His decades in LDS culture still heavily paints his worldview.

[@interpretingscripture8068]

Yes...especially with his view of the trinity

[@isaacfarley4527]

As someone who was in the room, the debate was over at 1:13:55 when Mr. Lee admits there are textual variants in the Old Testament and then changes his statement to "I mean the Torah." He admits in his opening statement he doesn't know anything about textual criticism then spends nearly two hours criticizing the text.

[@witforjesus]

​@@RandyT_RandyLikesToClimb You are right that Lee acted like he didn't know the variant Ps 22:16 and I tried to bring it up to him again in my post debate question where if the moderator had read my question, he would have heard what I originally said that the variant reading of "pierced" is in his Dead Sea Scrolls HEBREW. But the moderator cut my question short and didn't read that part, nor did he read the 2nd variant of my questions where I pointed out to Lee at Hab 1:12 the variant reading of "You (God) will not die" to "We will not die". Lee switched the subject to the "Septuagint" reading which is Greek and said Jesus spoke Greek, but Ps 22:16 is NOT a quote from Jesus, nor is it a quote from the NT writers who were using the Septuagint. My point had nothing to do with Greek or the Septuagint but that textual variants do exist throughout his HEBREW OT. I'm doing a full video review of the debate. There was another point Dr. White made about the longer ending of Jeremiah which Dr. White said was 10x the amount of text that was added to the OT, more than any of the NT variants "combined" would have amounted too. This point from Dr. White went so quick, I wonder how many people missed it. Again, I'm going to point out each of these places where Dr. White had Lee in a no win situation and Lee completely spun the argument so that it looked to his Ex-Mormon audience that he had a valid position, when he really didn't.

[@PracticalBibleStudies]

Your first debate is against James White? And you’ve been in this particular theology for how long? Mr Baker is super confused. Man.

[@M-i-k-a-e-l]

Confusion can be a very clear sign of the Holy Spirit's immanent presence. Sharp academic intellect may not.

[@jefflavenau]

I still pray for a day when Dr. White debates someone who just says: "Oh...I'm so sorry, I see now!"

[@danielmann5427]

@Oners82 - stop trolling And slandering

[@kellygipson8354]

@Oners82 the man holds 3 doctorates how is that not a Dr.??

[@kellygipson8354]

@Oners82 you called them doctorates. You have the opinion that they aren't valid. The last time I checked truth does not rely on opinion. It is my opinion that all secular colleges are Garbage, and anything you have been endocrineated to at those schools is invalid. See how that works??

[@ncbible1575]

If you are a believer - how was it that you came to be justified? One is justified by God when he hears the gospel in its purity and listens with believing ears. It is that profound and that simple. No one is saved by debating with them. There is a place for apologetics to be sure. However in the realm of salvation you cannot "talk" the unbeliever into anything. The gospel is the power and if one will intellectually reconcile that truth and believe - they are saved. Now we can start to handle some of the issue they have in their mentality.

[@jefflavenau]

@Oners82 and yet he's still a better scholar. Hm.

[@tsines3]

Lee’s frustration appears to be that God did things differently than Lee wanted him to. Every question is “Why didn’t god do this according to the way I conceive he should have done it?”

[@DarrelSimon]

That is because our Heavenly Father Jehovah God (Yahweh Elohim Allah) is NOT perfect in spite of the erroneous claim of His only begotten son (our Lord and Savior even Jesus Christ Judah (8 B.C. - 33 A.D.)! Matthew 5: 1 - 48 (48) JST Matthew 5: 1 - 50 (50) A perfect God cannot have imperfect human beings attempt to transmit a perfect message and naively expect that message to be perfect, because imperfection will always emerge.

[@tsines3]

@@DarrelSimon That makes no sense

[@DarrelSimon]

@@tsines3 A perfect God cannot have imperfect human beings attempt to transmit a perfect message and naively expect that message to be perfect, because imperfection will always emerge. Furthermore, why can't you prove from the facts that Jehovah God is perfect?

[@tsines3]

@@DarrelSimon that's a non-sensical assertion. The argument isn't that the transmission is perfect but that it's reliable. Secondly, there's no reason to believe God cannot reliably transmit his word through imperfect creatures simply because you don't think he can. There's nothing to prove regarding his perfection because perfection is defined by him not something he achieves.

[@DarrelSimon]

@@tsines3 Why would a perfect God need an imperfect human to reliably transmit a perfect message? Does a perfect God know how to read and write? If so, then why doesn't our Heavenly Father Jehovah God (Yahweh Elohim Allah) not write down and transmit the message Himself, as opposed to using an IMPERFECT middle man spokesman like the prophets Moses Levi (1593 B.C. - 1473 B.C.), or Isaiah Judah-Tamar (770 B.C. - 680 B.C.), Jeremiah Levi (660 B.C. - 580 B.C.), or Daniel Levi (625 B.C. - 525 B.C.), or Muhammad Banū Hāshim Quraysh (Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim) (570 - 632), or Joseph Smith Junior (1805 - 1844)? A perfect God cannot have imperfect human beings attempt to transmit a perfect message and naively expect that message to be perfect, because imperfection will always emerge.

[@beholdhisglory1657]

Great closing from Dr White

[@jesuguru2394]

I confess to feeling a (tiny) bit sorry for Mr. Baker because he was waaaaaaay outclassed and I think he knew it, his frustration showed. Maybe God will someday turn that frustration into revelation and repentance.

[@deangergi]

Great job again, Dr. White!

[@sodkasjunkie]

I totally understand how frustrating it is to have been deceived in a cult such as Mormonism But, this guy needs to get grounded just as James white said to do.

[@jonfaughn9575]

I love how Mr. Baker said in his opening address that quote "he promised his wife and family that he'd do far more listening than debating" and yet throughout almost all of Dr. Whites opening presentation all he did was thumb religiously through his notes and give an occasional nod. Yeah he REALLY wants learn..

[@PaperMateMan]

1:17:30. My theory: When he says “because it rings of Mormonism”, I think that is the core of a lot of this man’s complaints. I think he’s been hurt by a works-based sect. If this is so, We need to pray that God would comfort this man.

[@anthonytreen6253]

Fine pray for the man but also do not neglect the fact that this man is a purposeful enemy of the Gospel. He acts humble but there is quite often a verbally vicious intent against the truth, if you listen for it. He is a mouthpiece for the typical Jewish arguments against Christ being the Messiah. James White is very right to deal with this man with some decisiveness.

[@danielmann5427]

@@anthonytreen6253 - He doesn't embrace nor understand that God is a triune God. He calling Jesus a fraud, and a liar. He is to pitied as an enemy of Christ.

[@danielmann5427]

@@anthonytreen6253 - I 100% agree with you.

[@emotionalmodels8463]

Evan Kirby Not too sure if anyone knows that when people say the word “God,” they are using the (supposed) almighty’s name in vain. The word “God” is an English word! Shame on people who do not use the Original name-which is “El” in Hebrew-from where allllll this originated from. Yes, this word “god” people use is a perversion of the name “El.” Yes, people follow scripture that was written by the sand people-of whom worship “El.” And we Americans hate them. It is no wonder that they hate us 🙏

[@GailOwens]

@Vine 101 Great comment brother!

[@EthanRHolden]

Mr. Baker: The people at the back of the bus like me, don't know what the people at the front of the bus know! Mr White: Yes, so you jumped off the bus because you don't like what they were doing.

[@jakeRemains]

I feel bad for Mr.White's opponent. I think he feels betrayed by God, and thinks God can't be trusted. If he would just be alone with God, the Spirit will lead him to the truth.

[@emotionalmodels8463]

Not too sure if anyone knows that when people say the word “God,” they are using the (supposed) almighty’s name in vain. The word “God” is an English word! Shame on people who do not use the Original name-which is “El” in Hebrew-from where allllll this originated from. Yes, this word “god” people use is a perversion of the name “El.” Yes, people follow scripture that was written by the sand people-of whom worship “El.” And we Americans hate them. It is no wonder that they hate us 🙏

[@jamesgasaway7784]

Your suggestion that if Baker "would just be alone with God, the Spirit will lead him to the truth" sounds a great deal like the Mormon promise that whoever reads the Book of Mormon and prays sincerely, asking if it's true, will be assured it is. Dr. White would certainly suggest seeking God's truth but would recognize God's sovereignty in determining who will come to Him. Just a word of caution regarding your approach to Me. Baker's condition.

[@jamesgasaway7784]

@@emotionalmodels8463 Christian Arabs call the God of the Bible, "Allah" (الله), just as Muslims call the god of the Qur'an, "Allah." El/Al is simply the root word for "god" in all Semitic languages.

[@emotionalmodels8463]

@Vine 101 Firstly, I am not attempting to bring to light that the English word "God" has taken place of the word "El" because of self interest. Nor was I speaking of Jesus's name. It seems that when a person changes his or her name it would because he or she wants to be seen differently. In any case, you should check out any "analytical concordance of the bible." It shows the original meaning of words that have been replaced with english. It will show what the original Hebrew word means-- and/or Greek for the NT. It will blow your mind! EX: Anywhere the word "God" is used in GENESIS 1- 50 (and in several other books of the Bible, but there are too many to note here), you will find that it's from the Hebrew word "El" or "Elohim." EX: In Ezra 4-7 and Daniel 2-6 the use of the word "God" is from the word "Elah," which is masculine and feminine combined . You see El is a generic name for any God and AH (SarAH) is feminine: ELAH. NOW THAT IS BEAUTIFUL! We NEED "ElAH!" Not many people are conscious of this. And it IS noteworthy. And why do we not know of these things? --Because the KJV hated woman, and so we were left with only "God."

[@emotionalmodels8463]

@Vine 101 Thx for yours too. I'm not assuming that the Hebrews were implying that God, or Elah, is a man AND woman, or of any gender at all, but rather implying that God, or Elah, is of ALL. After all, "He" (and, perhaps, "She") did create man after His image...man meaning man and woman. God is not of gender, but, indeed, well can fathom the capacity of such entities...as though He is The Great, Knowledgable, He-She. I haven't read much of the New Testament. I know that the Trinity lies within the NT, but I haven't really seen It in the scriptures written by the Hebrews. But, again, the lack of any sort of "female energy," so to speak, of which the Hebrews were trying to express that God does posses, prevails in this "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" catch. And, I don't know, with the Greeks conquering the Persian Empire and all that, I think in 200 BC, it just seems a little odd to me that they would then, some 250 years later, write a "New Testament" to scriptures that were written by people they, albeit, did all sorts of bad things to.

[@lalumierehuguenote]

This debate shows one of the problem of internet and modern day access to information. It is uncontrolled and if you have no critical skills you end up being confused

[@ancientpathstv]

Check out An Earnest Plea to Roman Catholics. It has a section on St. Bartholomew's Day. kzbin.info/www/bejne/q6WscqGPaq5rebc

[@lalumierehuguenote]

@@ancientpathstv Can I ask why you recommended that to me ?

[@ancientpathstv]

@@lalumierehuguenote If you're not a Huguenot fan, you have a strange KZbin handle and image.

[@lalumierehuguenote]

@@ancientpathstv I am very close to spiritually to Hugeunot thinking.

[@nibinvarghese6652]

Dr James white knows what he does , always like to watch him debating

[@darriuscole8544]

No way, No how, did Lee Baker work through this stuff with Christian scholars before this debate. He couldn't get past me with this level of knowledge and understanding. There is no way he could have gotten past an actual Christian scholar.

[@witforjesus]

Lee Baker DID NOT spend much time with Christian scholars. He served with our ministry Witnesses for Jesus for 6 years. We have a Greek and Hebrew professor on the Board of Directors with our ministry who teaches the biblical languages daily in universities and churches. Our scholar offered Lee Baker 5 months of training in Hebrew to help him work through the lies his rabbi was giving him. Lee Baker REFUSED his offer and in addition to that, when our scholar started countering his claims, he not only blocked me on his FB page for offering our scholar's rebuttals to his claims, but he told me to "bug out" of any discussion he was having with another friend of ours who was trying to answer his convoluted arguments. That's the real story he's not telling you. Again, my video review of this debate will answer all these questions when I get the video done.

[@bretlynn]

Does Baker actually want the audience to believe that you have to achieve a perfect understanding of God's word at the moment of conversion and if anything changes along the way you must abandon everything?

[@ryanadams5719]

We have the text...variants and the rest. What an absolute gift that is.

[@ronitgeorge5387]

Does anyone find it hilarious that Lee Baker accepts ignorance on the subject in the beginning then towards the end of the debate pretends to be a scholar? He wasn;t able to substantiate any of his claims, he basically stated what he disliked about the transmission of the text.

[@ryanadams5719]

My Wife and kids don't want to watch this right now......sooooo....We won't. But I know I what I'm doing at 4am!

[@jasonbabilonia3037]

Good man

[@jasonbabilonia3037]

Smart man lol

[@lallidutoit7720]

There is so much about Jesus in the old testament

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

+isobel love - really? Please find me a single verse that uses the name "Jesus".

[@Joshcaldwell24]

She didn't say the name

[@lallidutoit7720]

@@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016 not the actual name Jesus, but Jesus was in the old testament

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

@@lallidutoit7720 There's a whole lot of "Jesus", by your reasoning, in Horus as well. Hmmm.

[@joneill3dg]

KZbin skeptic vs James White. This isn’t a debate, this is someone who hasn’t looked at the issue fairly complaining to Dr. White that the English translations aren’t perfect.

[@joneill3dg]

Oners82 Sir I’ve researched that claim. And Dr. or not that man is smarter then you and I, and his facts are in point. He can read in Greek and is a leading textual critic, sounds like someone who’s got a legit PhD....

[@joneill3dg]

Oners82 I Find it hard to believe that anybody who would write an essay in response to a KZbin comment has a PhD, but I could be wrong so I’ll give you that. you are clearly a slanderer and don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. I have zero interest in talking to you further. Good night.

[@argerm57]

@Oners82 So, how is accreditation (a bureaucratic regimen) necessary to learn something or to teach something? Were Harvard and Yale and the oldest universities 'accredited', in the modern sense? Yes, they probably had some sort of oversight, and the institution where James White got his doctorate probably was similarly overseen by some body. Just not the usual suspects. When young men went to elders to learn, say, law, or medicine, were the mentors 'accredited'? So, to you, his degree may be 'fraudulent', but his knowledge and his body of work is not. Big difference. You put too much weight on the standards of men. Unaccredited does not mean unqualified. To make that claim, you would have to examine the coursework and the graduation requirements for the granting of the degree. Have you done that? Your constant harping on a technicality is a real tell. Critique what he claims to know; don't critique his education according to some arbitrary standard. Can you refute what he teaches? If you can, or even attempt to do so, I would probably have a lot more respect for your perspective.

[@adenmsharp]

Oners82 If you did research, like you said you did, you’d know he’s pursuing an accredited PhD in textual criticism. Nevertheless, a degree doesn’t determine authority by any means. Knowledge does. Whether his three current doctorate degrees are legitimate is essentially irrelevant. His knowledge is the only relevant aspect in terms of his authority in the field of textual criticism. You should know that the argument from authority (ie, by degree or institution of education) is typically regarded as a logical fallacy.

[@sagatisbeast]

James is right, too many of us are too lazy to do the homework. Blame yourself and your poor effort to come to the knowledge of truth. Peace be with you all.

[@1478brandy]

Excellent. Thanks so much for making this happen!.

[@ChristisLord2023]

May God soften this man's heart.

[@workinprogress9613]

It seems to me that Lee Baker's arguments are filled with false equivalents, and conclusions that don't follow from his premises. There is so much that he simply could not hear mostly because he was too busy responding instead of thinking through what was just told him. I hope he does take the time to read some of Dr. White's materials.

[@Truth537]

I genuinely feel sorry for Lee Baker. He really doesn't understand the gospel or the scriptures. Feel bad for him. :(

[@michaelbucksmith7668]

How do you know he doesn't understand?

[@anthonytreen6253]

This man knows full well what he is doing. His purpose is not the discovery of truth but to cause as much harm as he can with the opportunity he has got at the moment. His style of argument is typical of many of the Jews who spew venom against the Gospel, and who use every tactic in the book to try destroy the Gospel.

[@michaelbucksmith7668]

@@anthonytreen6253 the gospel deserves to be spewn on. It's a hateful message which has no place in progressive society.

[@anthonytreen6253]

@@michaelbucksmith7668 that is because you are blind in your sins, and are filled with self righteousness. You also over estimate your own understanding.

[@michaelbucksmith7668]

@@anthonytreen6253 assuming you are an advocate for the gospel, your comments prove my point wonderfully.

[@nelysilva5833]

Mr. Baker, when you handed all those Africans the King James Bibles, it was a good thing. King James Bibles saves. I was saved by my Pastor using the K.J.. Salvation is in all the translations. Jesus is the Messiah. I'll be praying for you. Love you Mr. Lee Baker. Jesus Loves you🙏🙏🙏

[@EthanRHolden]

I don't mean to bash on Mr. Baker. But his position can be summed up at 1:27:35. He is lashing out because he was hurt that the way that he understood the transmission of the text was incorrect. But it is illogical to say "I am throwing the Bible out because I found out that my historical understanding of the canon was incorrect".

[@RachaelLewis68]

Just because Joseph Smith was a fraud doesn't mean the NT writers were. I hope you go back to your first love. You left Morminism to find Him. Then leave Him for what hope?

[@RachaelLewis68]

@@Kman. The love of Jesus Christ and His gospel. They came out of Mormonism to find Christ. The Mormon Jesus is not the same as the one in Christianity.

[@jacobbrownfield5753]

1 john 2:19 says whoever leaves the faith was never converted to begin with. He was never truly converted.

[@bretlynn]

first 15 minutes James White thinking: "I'm about to end this man's whole career"

[@prayingpatriot8018]

I think Baker's is retired. But Mr. Baker stated in the debate that he hoped his Jewish audiance who were having 2nd thoughts (on Daniel 9 & Isaiah 53), that Baker will try in vain to make his "point". He failed horribly. So I guess those Jews were not too happy w/ Baker's presentation after this debate...oops err. I meant TEACHING moment.

[@user-jk2po3cz7d]

What career ?

[@bretlynn]

It's a reference to a well known meme. Cmon maaaaan

[@user-jk2po3cz7d]

@@bretlynn The meme goes, Im going to end this man career, a guy in the back says what career

[@user-jk2po3cz7d]

Im not a rapper tho kzbin.info/www/bejne/fXu2dqeOjp57j7s

[@joanlantis4497]

in the beginning was the word and the word was WITH God and word was God. Jesus is the Word who was With God the Father.also the Holy Spirit dwells in us . He is also part of God. its in the old testament.

[@interpretingscripture8068]

And i dont think there is any variants in that verse among all Greek manuscripts :)

[@laurablevins6075]

joan lantis My thoughts exactly during this whole “debate”. Lee Baker is still messed up in the head from Mormonism. He truly doesn’t understand the trinity. :(

[@jonathancrocker366]

Mr. Baker is so terribly confused. Sad situation. He doesn't seem to grasp it. I'm no scholar, but even I understand what's being said. When your eyes are blinded it's awfully hard to grasp it. The trinity is taught from cover to cover. New Testament reliability has been demonstrated a number of times.

[@chou1767]

my conclusion from the whole debate: White: "In light of what you have heard until this time, why can't you believe that the Bible we have today is God breathed?" Baker: "I don't like how God preserve His Word"

[@SickestDisciple]

Dr. White’s face @31:16 when he in fact ended talking about 1 John 3:1...if only Lee Baker had listened.

[@bibleaddict8488]

Thank you, Dr. James White. Great debate, sir.

[@Kdubtru]

Mr Baker: Why didnt Luke record the Apostles death in Luke? James White: Because they werent dead yet... Mr Baker:Oh yes they were!!! Jason Wallace: *Shakes head* 😂😂😂😂Timestamp: 1:22:09

[@DarrelSimon]

So exactly when was the Book of Acts written, between 50 and 65 (as Brother White claims) or between 70 and 90 (as Brother Baker claims), because the apostle Paul (Saul Benjamin) (3 - 67) was executed sometime between 62 and 67?

[@Kdubtru]

@@DarrelSimon it's always popular to make the writings of the Bible have an extremely late dating as possible.

[@DarrelSimon]

@@Kdubtru The ONLY reason that it's popular to give a later date is because the FACTS tend to support a later date! If it so that Luke the Evangelist (1 - 84) had indeed written the Book of Acts of the Apostles by the year 60, then why didn't he write a second book of Acts of the Apostles which would cover the period of 60 to 70 which would include the late ministries and deaths of the apostles Paul (Saul Benjamin) (3 - 67), Peter (Simon Bar-Jonah) (10 B.C. - 67 A.D.) (whom was the first (1st) Pope-President of the Church (31 - )), and James Judah (10 B.C. - 69 A.D.), and the siege and fall of Jerusalem (66 - 70)?

[@Kdubtru]

@@DarrelSimon you're making major assumptions. One can make an argument that because the apostles didnt write about the fall of destruction is because it didnt happen yet... Why dont you take that into consisderation and automatically go with an extremely late date?

[@DarrelSimon]

@@Kdubtru And you are marking major assumptions yourself! You have NO proof and NO evidence to support an earlier composition date for the Acts of the Apostles! You are assuming that this book was written earlier! That is a BIG assumption of your part! So exactly when was the Book of Acts written, between 50 and 65 (as Brother White claims) or between 70 and 90 (as Brother Baker claims), because the apostle Paul (Saul Benjamin) (3 - 67) was executed sometime between 62 and 67? The ONLY reason that it is popular to give a later date is because the FACTS tends to support a later composition date! BUT If it so that Luke the Evangelist (1 - 84) had indeed written the Book of Acts of the Apostles by the year 60, then why didn't he write a second book of Acts of the Apostles which would cover the period of 60 to 70 which would include the late ministries and deaths of the apostles Paul (Saul Benjamin) (3 - 67), Peter (Simon Bar-Jonah) (10 B.C. - 67 A.D.) (whom was the first (1st) Pope-President of the Church (31 - )), and James Judah (10 B.C. - 69 A.D.), and the siege and fall of Jerusalem (66 - 70)?

[@user-jk2po3cz7d]

This man really brought his NSA clearance and an Amazon list to make an argument concerning a 2000 year old text... false equivalency? Yeah, maybe Edit: this went from funny to painful. My boy Lee can’t think in categories

[@JamesSnapp]

1:35:50 - White's observation (that Baker has introduced a barrel of new claims in his closing statement) is spot-on. Perhaps there should have been a ground rule to the effect that closing statements must focus on reviewing what has been said, and not introduce new factors.

[@christophersmith7412]

That is already an established rule of formal debate, Mr. Baker simply chose to ignore it.

[@lawrencestanley8989]

At about 38:00, he is asserting that Matthew took Hosea out of context? Who does he think he is?

[@GailOwens]

Pastor Wallace, I am an ex Mormon, I am good friends with Ruth and Andrew Price. Thank you for this video. Sadly this type of thing is happening all the time, a lot of ex cultists return to their former religion or end up in another false system. Please do a video on Dave Bartosiewicz, ex Mormon turned Orthodox

[@y2kvaporwave]

I personally know Dave as he attends my orthodox parish. Orthodox Christianity is so much more plausible, consistent and deeper than all of Protestantism. I would encourage you to look up Father Josiah Trenham or Jay Dyer or anything from Ancient Faith. 😊

[@MapleBoarder78]

Wow, Dr. White was on point! God Bless him as he defends the faith. 👍🏼

[@emotionalmodels8463]

MapleBoarder78 Not too sure if anyone knows that when people say the word “God,” they are using the (supposed) almighty’s name in vain. The word “God” is an English word! Shame on people who do not use the Original name-which is “El” in Hebrew-from where allllll this originated from. Yes, this word “god” people use is a perversion of the name “El.” Yes, people follow scripture that was written by the sand people-of whom worship “El.” And we Americans hate them. It is no wonder that they hate us 🙏

[@eversosleight]

Deuteronomy 32:8 is another significant and important OT textual variant, "children of Israel" usually found in the masoretic text type tradition," vs the much older "sons of God" rendering found in the Alexandrian tradition and Septuagint. Great debate! Praying that God shows Lee the light and truth of Christ.

[@croman6456]

I am completely confused by Mr Baker's premise...

[@alexnguyen9274]

1:28:25 I like how the lady in the front row on the left starts face palming

[@hd0483045]

Alex Nguyen That was actually a child. Even a child could see how deceived Mr. Baker was.

[@CharlieJulietSierra]

Ha, good call. Haha

[@JesusGarcia-Digem]

Dr James white is a real heavy hitter!!!

[@prayingpatriot8018]

Mr. Baker oughta understand that as Dr. White clearly stated: "there is no parallel between Mormonism & the Bible". Simply because he's been hurt by Mormonism. As Dr. White said: Mormon doctrine/scriptures are "controlled transmissions" meaning they can easily change their texts as they (men) see fit. This cannot be said for God's Word. I applaud Mr. Baker for leaving Mormonism; but I will pray for him to do his homework/research on the Bible & church history.

[@interpretingscripture8068]

Amen...i agree in faith with you for his salvation and clarity of mind in Jesus name! :)

[@jarredgoodman9688]

The preservation of the Scriptures is truly miraculous! The issues here is that this fact that is only realised by the work of the Holy Spirit. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[@brandonroot7848]

Love James White

[@curtispryor8872]

I think Lee Baker is passionate about what he is doing, but he is missing the big picture, maybe because of his past experiences. His passion is running ahead of discernment and wisdom. What frustrates me is that he influences a lot of people. How many of those people will now just give up on God altogether because of the confusing message? My prayer is that Lee would step out of the whole public speaking arena and become a serious student of the Bible and the history of the Bible: more importantly, a person of deep prayer and humility before the Lord (we all need to do that). It seems that he has a lot of information but it isn't grounded in a consistent, systematic process of study. It is grounded more in emotion rather than simply taking the time to learn before speaking. I have to believe that God will use this debate to force Lee into searching more deeply and I pray that the Holy Spirit will do something transformative in the process.

[@lawrencestanley8989]

At 1:28:27, I don't know who that young lady is at the bottom left of the screen, but I AGREE... DOUBLE facepalm...

[@hd0483045]

Lawrence Stanley Right? I noticed that too. Even at that young age she understood this man’s ludicrous assertions.

[@lawrencestanley8989]

@@hd0483045 Yeah, apparently the only one who doesn't realize how crazy the atheist sounds is the atheist!

[@wwurjant]

Good for you Mr Baker. You speak for all of us who despite not being new testament scholars can spot simple things that are against common sense. James white bent over backward trying to avoid the questions “who wrote Mark, Mathew, Luke and John”.

[@trailtrs1]

It’s a big mistake to declare a room of people dishonest because they don’t agree with your phrasing of a question about “replacement theology”. That’s an STRAW MAN in a debate, an attempted shortcut to a point that you don’t appear to bolster in an argument. Like people being called “basket of deplorable s” because they don’t agree with your ideas about changing the culture.

[@jimkiesow9349]

In the movie series "Jesse Stone", Tom Selleck plays a small town police chief with a gift for investigating crime. He has a couple of guiding principles. One is, "If you don't like the answers you're getting, check your premises." Another is, "The information is out there. You just have to let it in." I think both of these could be applicable to Lee Baker. It seems to me he's operating under a false premise when it comes to the topic of "inerrancy" as it applies to the Biblical text. Inerrancy doesn’t mean every extant copy is inerrant. It is important to understand that the doctrine of inerrancy only applies to the original manuscripts. I think this is what threw Lee Baker for a loop. He has a different premise and this is what he needs to adjust. Secondly there are innumerable books on the topic of Biblical inerrancy. Some of these books are easy reads. In his book "Essential Christianity", Dr. Walter Martin examines each of the basic orthodox Christian doctrines. One of these is the inspiration of the Bible where he covers the topic of inerrancy. It might be that Lee Baker will never be able to reconcile his view on this topic. The unfortunate thing is he's gone in a direction where he now rejects Jesus as the Messiah. It's said that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I think that's where Lee Baker has drifted off-course.

[@punishingatheismofficial9790]

I feel sorry for James White, the stress he has to go through to defend the faith. He did his homework teaches it, and gots to debate people like this who doubt the faith

[@interpretingscripture8068]

I agree lol All the more reason for good dicipleship that includes...where we got our bibles lol I feel bad for the other guy too...so confused....its harder to get a personnon tract once they have ingested so much wrong teaching but all things are possible with God! :)

[@TimothyLittle13]

"Your understanding of the New Testament and church history is incredibly confused and I hope that you will find a way to become UN-confused." - James White, 2019

[@JoshuaSommer]

I'm trying to decide whether or not this was worse than the Steve Tassi debate.

[@ramonnoens5555]

Tassi was much worse... There was a guy that claimed to be an orthodox Christian but ended up spouting absolute nonsense to try and salvage his "Arminianism".

[@idhalverson]

After much deliberation, I came up with a brief, simple way to succinctly describe Mr. Baker’s arguments, presentation, and attitude. ... ... ... ... “Yikes.”

[@mikewalsh5872]

So, basically….Baker is mad because he didn’t do his homework. Yeah, that makes sense….

[@jthuff5102]

The biggest problem with mr Baker is a confusion between malicious changes and non malicious changes. Also as with many people he is under the assumption that God speaks in terms of absolute fact when he almost never speaks in terms of absolute fact. One can't complain how God speaks.

[@jimkiesow9349]

I was reminded of how when you do a research project, the first thing that you do is develop a research question. It takes time to rework it until you get it right. Then you do a review of the literature. That review helps you to learn everything you can about the topic you are researching. I think Lee Baker needs to develop one question and then research the daylights out of it and then finally, come to some conclusions. He's just a loose wire at this point. He has a lot of energy and enthusiasm but needs to get some focus.

[@DeusEstPrimus]

very sad. James is a better man then I am, i would have walked out. Clearly Lee is upset and just wants to take as many people as he can with him. I wonder if he is just trying to hold onto sin. Baker has done some solid work, I hope Christ restores him.

[@88woodbikes4]

The guy gave 500 copies of the KJV bible to Africans. Why doesn’t he find satisfaction in that ? I think he did a good thing. It’s still my preferred translation, shortcomings not withstanding.

[@danvan2683]

This should encourage any christian to learn the issues, I find objective study leads to the truth, don't be afraid of troubling issues, get your perspective challenged and know why you have hope within you.

[@chucksimcox4690]

Finally Dr. White quoted Genesis 19:24, this and a multiplicity of Old Testament scriptures prove beyond any argument of the Trinity in the old Testament. Or at least in many of these quotes, Binitarianism. I would disagree with William Lane Craig stating that the Trinity is absent in the O.T. My viewpoint is that the Jews in the O.T. time new exactly that there were more than one person in the discussion. Anyone can read Genesis chapter 18 and 19 and so many other scriptures in the O.T. and can see they are forced by the word of God that the O.T. is talking about more than one person, claiming to be deity.

[@historyoftheldssaints4295]

Wonderful debate !!

[@theriveroffaith852]

Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!

[@ChristisLord2023]

This man is giving up on Christ because he refuses to look for the evidence that he is saying he knows is there. This is not an insult, but that seems to be a problem of ignorance, in spite of the evidence.

[@JamesSnapp]

1:18:54 - Baker asks if Mark 16:9-20 was ever in Greek manuscripts. Dude. It's in over 1,600 of them, plus lectionaries; the text of Mark stops at 16:8 in only three Greek manuscripts. Seriously?!

[@jamesgasaway7784]

What we see in Mr. Baker is the ongoing damage Mormonism did in his and his family's lives. Let's show him mercy and pray that this period is simply part of his sanctification. For all the frustration it's admittedly easy to feel, ask yourself if you'd take such a hard position toward a childhood polio patient learning to walk as an adult. That's Mr. Baker.

[@ancientpathstv]

We should always speak the truth in love to everyone, but this is much more than a time of personal doubt. He has publicly renounced and denounced Jesus. He hasn't done it for a night, but for over 6 months. It is part of a larger pattern that indicates he was never converted in the first place. The seed sprouts in rocky soil and among the thorns. That doesn't mean someone is a true believer. My sympathies on Saturday's game with South Carolina.

[@jamesgasaway7784]

@@ancientpathstv Wasn't aware of all his statements. Let's still be patient. And yeah, that game is part or my sanctification. Not enough to be the better team. Gotta play the better game.

[@stevie6621]

This debate should be put into the category of comedy.

[@luisrafaelayala777]

James White looks like he's being torture by this man's ignorance.

[@witforjesus]

@Titus Robertson And everything he once knew has been discarded by the mental twisting his rabbi has put him under. Lee and I wrote a book together in 2018 called "Misguided by Mormonism." In that book I wrote about the textual variants and he reviewed my chapters as I did his chapters. He KNEW about this and the Trinity, and many of the variants that came up in the debate were not only discussed in my book but in Chip Thompson's course on Bible transmission. He says he didn't "know" these things, but the reality is that his rabbi has twisted his thinking so he never "knew" this information in the way his rabbi has him thinking now. It's really, really sad. Please pray for Lee and Kathy!

[@3ittybittypiggiesstorytime547]

No, Dr. White is just tortured by his own ignorance, and arrogance. Please pray for the Bakers and Dr. White to wake up to the twisting misguided paths. Baker made some very valid points which White whitewashed right over it. If both were to be fully honest they would find that those points Baker made about changes in "christianity" did indeed happen in much the same way in Judaism and in Mormonism too. Judaism changed and borrowed just like "christianity" did too. Why else would we have tens of thousands of "christian" sects, and similar for other religious sects? They are both lacking, both copying and changing records and stories, and it shows right in the bible, not to mention the many other religious sources both borrowed from. Yes, Lee, "Fake, Fake!" Changed manuscripts and story-lines in both. The Jews were descendants of pagans and were pagans themselves with various idols in their homes right up until they went into captivity in Babylon, their home of ancestry, only adopting monotheist Zoroastrian ideas then, and rewriting so much of their changing beliefs during and after captivity. That change still shows in the bible to some extent, despite revisions, just like the new testament shows record of so many revisions in its story too. Did the bible have it own "first reVision" much like Mormonism who's first vision also changed and changed some more until it simply proved itself wrong? The old and new testaments do much the same. That is human nature, not the nature of God who can't hold the bible together. Myths vs Legends, borrowed from many others before both of them. The pot calling the kettle black? Jumping from the frying pan cult into the fire cult? Oh, wait, that is jumping from Abrahamic religions into the Marxist Globalist Corporatocracy cults which we must "Obey and Not question, the debate is over when our new $aviors have spoken." Sounds too familiar.

[@witforjesus]

@@3ittybittypiggiesstorytime547 I do agree with you in that Mr. Baker brought up a few points that Dr. White didn't address. I am in the process of doing a full review of this debate on my you-tube channel. It will be out after my series on "Is Christianity the Mormonism of Judaism?" is complete. Thanks for your input.

[@3ittybittypiggiesstorytime547]

@@witforjesus I look forward to viewing that. I find that the LDS rabbit hole leads to a "christian" rabbit hole which leads to a Judaism rabbit hole which.... All resembling each other. Their holy records are a fascinating tribute to human nature, evolution of thought, ethics and religions.

[@witforjesus]

@@3ittybittypiggiesstorytime547 I look forward to getting my review done. Unfortunately, I came down with a bad cold and lost my voice before I could get it finished this week. Hopefully, I'll be able to record more next week. There's a LOT of research I'm videoing to reference with my review. I do hope you'll consider it rather than throw every belief system out. I have always believed that the reason so many religions resemble each other is for the same reason that people don't create counterfeit $3 bills. There must be a real dollar bill for the counterfeits to resemble it. The same holds true with God. There is only 1 truth and everything else we see around religion is a mere counterfeit of that 1 truth.

[@jamesbrinkley8818]

1:28:27 Bottom left

[@danielomitted1867]

This was difficult to watch. The problem with people like Baker is that he is completely ignorant and very comfortable in his ignorance. He fundamentally will not engage with what the other side is saying which is why he doesnt understand the manuscript tradition or very doctrine of the trinity. The issue for Christians is that it takes considerable knowledge to refute his ignorance. Hes not willing stay silent on what he doesn't know and will attack based on his ignorance.

[@JamesSnapp]

10:55 - A moment: if Lee Baker is so ignorant regarding text-critical issues, why does he seem to take for granted that certain text-critical positions are true, such as the position that Mark 16:9-20 is not part of the original text? The proper thing to do, it seems to me, in the face of such a claim, involves investigating the basis for the claim -- in which case, a well-informed investigator would no longer be ignorant of the considerations involved. Isn't Baker essentially admitting that he has ignorantly jumped to a conclusion? In which case, what is stopping him from learning the relevant information pertaining to such questions?

[@isthechurchtrue]

The term Risen in the Gospel of Mark refers to the resurrection of Jesus 5 different times Mark 9 :9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. Mark 14: 28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee. Mark 16 :6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. Mark 16: 9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. Mark 16 :14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

[@loadedwahlter3130]

"He was bruised for our iniquity" "like a lamb led to the slaughter" thats where it says in the old testament he was to die. Dude needs to re read his bible. He said many times there are no scriptures in the old to explain the new. And he was wrong every time. He claimed there was no old testament proof of born of a virgin, then said that there was. I do believe in inerancy. Most archaelogical evidence we have continues to confirm that most of if not all of what is in the kjv is a correct english translation. In this debate it wasnt said, but the only bibles that dont correspond with one another are researched and studied by atheist scholars. Although most say its right, a few atheist bible publishers have motive to change the interpretations. To claim its false.

[@garydarian]

There's a fundamental misunderstanding on the reality of Trinity for Lee. Additionally, Trinity is referenced in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, Elohim created heaven and earth". The Hebrew word for God (Elohim) used in Genesis 1 translates as uniplural God. It's the only Hebrew singular word that has plural meaning and it also explains why both singular and plural pronouns are used for God in Genesis 1:26-27. By the way, the Catholic Church did start with Christ...

[@scottchi666]

Great debate Dr White fantastic as always. I hope Mr Baker can watch this and learn whats obvious to some of us , maybe? From Mr Bakers closing remarks prove he didnt hear much of what was said. He was burned bad by Mr Smith, that demon of a man. The way the scriptures were handed down to us is amazing and we owe the Jewish nation greatly.

[@greg7384]

Reformed Baptist here. I find Lee Baker to be very arrogant and frustrating to listen to for numerous reasons, but just as bad is James White. I love so much of what Dr. White has done over the years. I've been listening to and reading him for a very long time. But he is so belittling and disrespectful. It's so cringe-worthy. It's sad that more reformed folks don't see how at odds this behavior is to what we confess.

[@ancientpathstv]

I agree that we need to speak the truth in love, but please don't underestimate the challenge involved in doing these kinds of debates. I've personally done a few and have a sense of the work and focus it requires for James to do what he does. If I tried to do it, I'd be much harder person to be around than even his worst critics accuse him of being. I believe he was pulling his punches here to speak the truth in love. Lee Baker wasn't simply a confused former-Mormon, but a heretic who had refused all attempts to correct him Mr. Baker had publicly and repeatedly mocked Biblical Christianity. I've heard various criticisms of James, but in my personal dealings with him for 23+ years, he's been exemplary. Most of those with whom he's debated here have expressed their appreciation of the tone. As to you being a Reformed Baptist, please check out this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bGnbZ6NjrZmbgaM

[@EthanRHolden]

Who is Lazareth? (:

[@GabrielMartinez-su8di]

😂😂😂

[@danielomitted1867]

2:59 probably shouldve just called it quits there

[@shawnjones2454]

You rock james!!

[@MandyGood]

James white is the best