Legends Within Legends | The False History of Rohan

[@richardjohnston-bell476]

"this is where politics and, unfortunately, bigotry and prejudice come into play. Those are some buzz words to get the Tolkien Society 'scholars' salivating" . This made me almost spit out my coffee 😂

[@TheRedBook]

They'd be salivating if they ever watched my videos :D . They don't though!

[@Kaleidoface]

@@TheRedBook Your problem, I think, is that your videos are entirely too filled with actual scholarship and.....I shudder to write this.....original thought.

[@waltonsmith7210]

In a workd filled with so much bigotry and prejudice, I find this statement genuinely odd.

[@TheRedBook]

Bigotry and prejudice in the story itself, not the author. TS can't seem to tell the difference.

[@josephraffurty9293]

The red book library at the start is a great work of art. Really cool way to start the video. Love learning more about the rohirrim. Feel they aren’t explored as in depth as other races on many channels.

[@zenocrate4040]

Alas, the perennial usefulness of political fictions. Another excellent video. Thanks.

[@jamezjernagain8665]

I can feel the magic of the legendarium. Well done.

[@beegfeeg4473]

Finally! I’ve waited far too long for another Red Book video!

[@ilonapsiuk1078]

Honestly, listening to your vids is more than a pleasure. The way U pronounce the names is utterly like honey to the ears, the proper rolled r, ah, music!

[@skatemetrix]

This raises a bigger question: how much of the Silmarillion was distorted and altered by mannish myths and Numenorian misunderstandings?

[@BenFrayle]

Probably not a great deal as it was an elven account transcribed.

[@TheRedBook]

Probably the other way about. It is really "distorted" by the knowledge of the Elves, which explains their misunderstanding of Men. The idea of the Numenorean misunderstandings and myths was really something Tolkien was going to develop further as laid out in Myths Transformed. The idea of the flat earth becoming round, when the sun first arose, etc. That was all going to be changed with previous versions basically being considered Mannish myths.

[@docopoper]

This feels like the sort of "What is Aragon's tax policy" stuff that George R.R. Martin would have loved. Though done in an extremely Tolkien way. Like gosh that felt like some extremely realistic power politics.

[@GreMnMlin]

This makes a lot of sense, especially given Tolkien's background as a scholar of medieval history where legends like this were quite common (like the welsh and norwegians linking themselves to the Trojans or the Irish to the greeks) as a way to lay claim to a prestigious Mediterranean history. Or later in history how the aristocracy of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth liked to claim they were not actually slavs and balts like the rest of the population, but the descendants of Sarmatians or Alans (which had no basis in fact)

[@louisebrouillette5580]

This is a fascinating topic, one which I hadn't given enough thought. Thank you for all this information so that we may see things clearly in the legendarium.

[@cgarrand78]

I've been waiting for another video from you.Great job,thank you!

[@TheBrothersArda]

Love Rohan, they've always been my favourite partie of the Legendarium, their honour, Northern Courage & battle-joy always felt appropriate somehow and amongst the most well-developed concepts of Tolkien's Legendarium. Brilliant work as always Steven, your knowledge and analysis are always such an inspiration. I have to ask, where does Rohan rank as far as your favourite kingdoms of the Three Ages go? And which one is your favourite?

[@justinah7400]

My favorite is The Noldor of the first age.

[@Edward-nf4nc]

It may originally have been a lie, however, they were kin of the kings of Gondor via Eldacar's mother. So when Elessar reforged the Oath of Eorl with Eomer he legally gave the land to a distant kinsman! Also Eowyn married Faramir, Steward of Gondor and Head of the House of Hurin. Also, her grandfather married a descendant of a Prince of Dol Amroth, and her brother married a daughter of the Prince of Dol Amroth, who was also Faramir's uncle, who were kin of the House of Elendil, making Eomer's heirs descendants of the Dunedain and kin to Elessar! What was originally a lie became a different truth! Rohan was ruled by a kinsman of the king of Gondor!

[@TheRedBook]

Support The Red Book on Patreon: www.patreon.com/theredbook Join The Red Book on Discord: discord.gg/XaZDTNkM

[@MistaGify]

Well done on many fronts! I liked the 1st artwork of the Red Book and the cozy library/fireplace. Maybe that should be your intro page from here on, with you yourself included as a scholar deep in thought, haha! And a good job on explaining the bigotry of Gondor as well as how tales work within tales!

[@drewp9819]

This is a particularly cool analysis. It gets into nuances I never knew about and probably would never consider

[@TheRedBook]

⚡Too kind :D

[@istari0]

I would think then, that having elevated the Éothéod to "equal status" with the Men of Gondor in order to justify the "loss" of Calenardhon, these same folk would then find it difficult to object to various ways in which the two peoples might mingle, up to and including intermarriage. Still, I like to think that some of the House of Hador end up among the peoples who would eventually become the Éothéod.

[@guillee12]

I think this is my favorite video of yours so far

[@ericcarson4513]

Is the Tom Bombadil episode still on its way?

[@TheRedBook]

Yes, still writing that out.

[@ericcarson4513]

@@TheRedBook Awesome!

[@sainiharika]

Was eagerly waiting for your video @redbook 💜💜💜

[@TheSaneHatter]

"When legend becometh fact, print ye legend." - Gondorian proverb(?)

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

great stuff Steven, i completely agre it is the depth provided by the stories with in the stories which make the legendarium so wonderful. If i knew more of the cats of queen Beruthiel, if it was possible to know more i could not be more fascinated, only less. thanks.

[@Enerdhil]

Creepy creatures.😼

[@PrometheanRising]

This is excellent content. Thank you!

[@keyboarddancers7751]

Such a fantastic Tolkien channel.

[@Enerdhil]

Thank you, Steven, for the great deep dive into the mythology surrounding Rohan. You totally convinced me that it was a political decision made after Cirion was gone. I think he would've been shocked to hear his descendants talking about the origin of the North men which never heard about or knew about, an origin the Rohirrim themselves never claimed. Alas! They are but Middle Men.😢

[@XakonXIV]

Very well done, and an excellent choice for a topic. Thank you.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I was actually planning to reread Of Dwarves and Men again soon and now you’re spoiling it 😂.

[@andrewfanner2245]

Fascinating. Thank you.

[@Picopunk3]

I think it’s also suggested in the war of the jewels that the northmen could have been related to the people of Bor, the faithful Easterling. His people’s descendants that remained in Eriador and didn’t cross the blue mountains.

[@TheRedBook]

I think I talk a little about that in one of my Trilogy videos, those good Easterlings who fought against Morgoth. Mentioned in passing at least...

[@lnwolf7563]

While that is a worthy idea, I would pause to believe it, because Tolkien described the Easterlings as "swarthy" meaning they had dark hair and probably a darker skin shade than the descendants of Eorl. That isnt to say that they couldnt have intermarried and down through the years become a more fair haired race, but I would think the descendants of Bor were probably just the normal humans, outside those that came from Numenor, that dwelled in the West of Middle Earth at the time of the books.

[@Picopunk3]

@@lnwolf7563 some of the men of Hador most likely akin to the northmen who stayed in Eriador were described as having dark hair at least. Tolkien ultimately never fleshed out the specifics.

[@lnwolf7563]

@@Picopunk3 That is a fair point.

[@sainiharika]

Eagerly waiting ☺️☺️☺️☺️😊

[@LordTelperion]

Good old Calenardhon.

[@alanmike6883]

Very interesting man 👍

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

I don't think it is impossible that some of the Edain that crossed the Blue Mountains into Beleriand later returned back and intermingled with their relatives who stayed in Eriador. There is one description of such migration in the Silmarillion, if I am not mistaken, and there might be more of them that aren't mentioned. Of course, there is not enough information to be sure that some of those people were among the ancestors of Rohirrim, but it is a possibility. So the Gondorian version of history probably wasn't a complete lie, just a favorful interpretation of historical events. Another reason is that the term "Hadorians" (and "House of Hador") is pretty vague - it may describe the descendants of Hador himself, or the dynasty to which Hador belonged, or the people that were ruled by that dynasty, or all the people related to that tribe (including those that didn't go into Beleriand or returned from there). It is possible that this confusion started as a problem of terminology and only later was used for political goals.

[@kirandeepchakraborty7921]

Excellent narration ⭐⭐⭐⭐

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Gotta say that new intro had its intended impressive effect 👍🏼 It bestows an atmosphere befitting of discussing mythology. By the way, it seems like my KZbin alias Crafty Spirit is sometimes replaced by my google alias in the comment section 😅😅

[@TheRedBook]

Yeah, I'm happy with the intro but didn't want to get rid of the old one. I now have two intros for videos :D . I think that's something to do with the recent handles update. I'm noticing it with quite a few users.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@TheRedBook An intro for an intro... and regarding my username, I made this other alias when I was like 15 and the internet still young... you can hear fellow Tolkien youtuber Darth Gandalf trying not to laugh when he reads out my username in his Q&A - it's the final or penultimate question in said video, I am still compelled by the whole lightning affair in Númenor's dark hour

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@TheRedBook I also wanted to mention something regarding the topic of historical revisionism within Middle-Earth. Tolkien wrote somewhere that many if not most of the inhabitants of Rohan's West March are of mixed descent and that there was more (consentual, positive I assume) mixing between Éothéod and Dunlendings that either side would like to admit - for political reasons. Also, the video tempts me to slander about Fram. I feel like there is a darker side to him than people are led to believe. He must have already seem like a larger than life figure by the Third Age, remembered with certain distortions.

[@Ka_T_ya]

Love your analyzes !

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you to my biggest fan on KZbin!

[@Ka_T_ya]

@@TheRedBook you are the best channel about Tolkien on YT ,and the reason I began to dig deeper into HoMe 💜

[@kirandeepchakraborty7921]

Amazing visuals ❤

[@LifeofHum]

Thank you so much ❤️

[@claytonshepherd]

Well Done.

[@RingsLoreMaster]

When it comes to the word myth and definitions I accept and embrace Tolkien's 'Mythopia' (sp? )as his explanation of the same.

[@denislemenoir]

I’d love to see a video exploring fading of the elves. Do they fade in Aman? When would Cirdan have faded if he never left ME? If a ME elf had a child in the late third age, would not that child have much longer to live on ME before fading? If so, why could elves sustain a population in ME indefinitely, just living a few thousand years, having kids, then sailing off when they’re time comes…. Thanks!

[@shanenolan5625]

Cheers mate

[@claybird121바람]

The content I crave

[@docopoper]

I don't really know anything about the Tolkien Society, but I think the way Tolkien explores bigotry in the mythology is excellent. It really is woven very deeply and causes so many issues for the different peoples of Arda. There are definitely some things that go noticeably unquestioned by Tolkien from a modern lens, but if anything that serves to put more historical context on the work and somehow makes it feel more ancient and timeless.

[@Sandbarfight]

Thank you

[@jonystyles9473]

so much words just to recognize this: Northmen are descendents from the men of the house of HADOR that DIDN'T chose to cross to Beleriand, period! makes sense, since they were the numerous house of the 3, some of them chose to stay behind!

[@TheRedBook]

You missed the point of the video. I'm not just summarising Tolkien Gateway here.

[@jonystyles9473]

@@TheRedBook I understood bro, and I agree with u as always, specially in the matter of giving Calenardhon to them... just wanted to say my opinion about their Origins, thats all... love your videos ;)

[@Crafty_Spirit]

15:18 That map is sexy

[@TheRedBook]

Yeah I like the regular map (which I use a lot) but I put some effects on it while editing and it made it look pretty cool as a black map with the outlines. I'll probably use it like this from now on.

[@Hero_Of_Old]

Is that a painting of you above the mantlepiece Steven? 😂

[@TheRedBook]

Apparently not. I'm told its a possible ancestor😅

[@jimbombadill]

I think they are decendant of both. There most have been those who refused the call to numenor. They probably mixed with those who didnt go to beladrian.

[@gandalf4751]

😍😍😍💕👌

[@Irish_Pete]

Hola

[@TheRedBook]

espero que estés bien"

[@LadyAlaina42-c3e]

The Tolkien Society is woke and to be avoided!!