The Wild Men | Tolkien's Men of Darkness

[@celtofcanaanesurix2245]

I just realized that quote by Sam about the death Haradrim is likely drawn directly from something Tolkien must have experienced in WW1. He must have seen such a thing, a dead German in the mud, face down, or even face up, knowing this man wasn't likely evil at heart, but forced by the Kaiser or other forced to join a war that would claim his life.

[@nevilleslightlylargerbotto1726]

I always found that a bit odd from Tolkien, as he himself was drafted into a war in which he really wanted no part if one is being honest. “What lies or threats drove him [the enemy soldier] here?”. It’s like….uh the same ones that drove YOU here J.R. lol. But I get the sentiment

[@adventussaxonum448]

Maybe. Not sure whether Tolkien volunteered, as an officer. Of course, it would have been expected of him, but that's not quite the same as drafting. He joined in 1915 and fought in the Somme offensive, which was the first great battle using the newly called-up draftees, but many of the troops would still have been volunteers. However, I'm sure your point about his retrospection is correct.

[@nevilleslightlylargerbotto1726]

@@adventussaxonum448 you make a good point. I forgot he was an officer so maybe a bit different but to me it’s beside the point in the sense that both sides (the western Allies led by UK and France and later the US vs Germany and Austrian-Hungarian empire and Ottoman Empire) had their Machiavellian reasons for wanting that war, and it was the common man that paid the price for it. As the former side won, now Western Europe and the US think of themselves as completely innocent and their intentions regarding that war above reproach. Nothing could be further from the truth. And to the extent that anyone, on either side, participated in it, then they technically acted as an accessory to it. Although, again, to Tolkien’s point, what the hell choice does a drafted guy have? Of course he’s gonna fight for his country, I get it.

[@nevilleslightlylargerbotto1726]

I’m sure some German in the trenches of France, upon looking down at the face of a dead British soldier, wondered to himself what lies or threats had David Lloyd George levied against this man to cause him to take up arms and march to what was almost assuredly a violent death. You’ve just never heard of it, because Germany didn’t win the war. But that’s outside the scope of this comment..just adding some perspective.

[@TheLastAxeman]

Great video! I like the fact you emphasized the tragedy of so many Men being born into cultures infected by worship of Dark Lords, without any choice of finding another way. And the ending passage about Sam witnessing fight between Men and his pity and empathy towards them always makes me cry. Honestly I don't understand why some people would call Middle Earth purely black and white, morally simple world - a glimpse into the actual writings of Tolkien shows how complex is this world and that servants of evil are its victims too

[@skaagkaal2613]

On the subject of the Men of Darkness, the hope loyalty that's shown by Bór his sons and his folk that all the Atanatári carrying within them burns as bright as other heroes of the first age. In the mythos those men were as great as others like Beor, Marach, Haldad, Barahir, Haleth, Beren, Húrin, Túrin, Huor, Tuor, and Eärendil.

[@lastofrwby8395]

Another point that should be made is that many of the men of darkness were rebelling against Sauron, as the blue wizards has started rebellions against him.

[@TheRedBook]

I had written a bit about this but took it out. It's probably more suited to a Blue Wizards video since there are various traditions related to what the Blue Wizards were actually doing in the East.

[@SamirZehar-ol1dc]

@TheRedBook when can we expect a blue wizards video by? Im already excited

[@lastofrwby8395]

@@TheRedBook ah ok

[@nevilleslightlylargerbotto1726]

I wouldn’t say “many” were rebelling but I think some definitely were.

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

The empathetic treatment of his villains is a great strength in the professors writing. One can in the extreme see Gollum as the true hero and true victim of LotR. You illustrate this empathy in the legendarium brilliantly. Thanks Steven.

[@Sara3346]

I fail to see what empathy the orcs recived.

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

@@Sara3346 the scene in Minas Morgul, where the two orcs discuss what they will do when the war is over is very empathetic, it portrays them and their needs in a manner which helps us to see that they are similar to our own, and shows that they are not entirely evil. Just the first example that came to mind.

[@RingsLoreMaster]

I sense a podcast on this subject. Professor Chance wrote that Gollum was the LotR's dragon.. She relied heavily on Gandalf's comments in the chapter 'Shadow of the past' of Gollum's insatiable appetite. It went so far as to lead him to steal babies from their cribs

[@Sara3346]

@@joseraulcapablanca8564 I feel silly for having forgotten about that. It does feel rather small in comparison to his treatment of men though.

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

@@Sara3346 the orcs do not get much empathy for sure, just probably far more than most authors, especially in the professors time, would have given to them.

[@TheRedBook]

One of three videos dedicated to Men of the First Age. This video focuses on the Wild Men. Those Men who served Dark Lords through the ages of Middle-earth. The Edain: The Men of Light - kzbin.info/www/bejne/gIWUoZxre8-cmJo The Middle Men: The Men of Twilight - kzbin.info/www/bejne/enKzm6mmaceYa80 The Wild Men: The Men of Darkness - kzbin.info/www/bejne/n53UlX2meteiqc0 I turned down an EA sponsor for these three videos so I appreciate it greatly when people choose to support The Red Book on Patreon. - www.patreon.com/theredbook

[@MistaGify]

I'm surprised this turned out to be my favourite video of the 3 about Man! Once again, you have a knack for expanding the things I already know about the Legendarium into their full scopes. The Men of Darkness were little different from Gollum or the Orcs, born into bodily and spiritual slavery for millennia after millennia across 2 Dark Lords. I wonder how things went during The Fourth Age? Were Sauron's final defeat and the Reunited Kingdom's establishment monumental enough to start redeeming and reforming them? Or did they see it as yet another defeat to take in stride and avenge generations later, awaiting a unifying leader among them or a 3rd Dark Lord who would never come?

[@neant2046]

This is my favourite of the three parts! Tolkien's dark characters and fractions always carry a lot of though-provoking topics with them. They are the ones that make us challenge our own views and ways the most. And you are the best when it comes to talking about them :) And once again - I love the ending and the closing quote, they highlight the facet of this discussion that for some is hard to notice - that villains have once also been victims, and had they not been that, they might have chosen another path.

[@nickolas.vicente]

This one will break KZbin for sure 😂

[@Enerdhil]

Feeling sorry for criminals because they were victims at one point in their lives is how we have seen a doubling of violent crimes in the USA. No cash bail.🙄

[@neant2046]

@@Enerdhil Understanding the victim origins of criminals does not equal justifying their actions and treating them as innocents. Life is not black or white, there are much more shades to it. However, understanding, in which way they had been traumatized themselves helps to understand, what led them to commiting a crime, who else may be partially responsible for it, as well as how to prevent (or rather minimize, if we're speaking about the country level), this type of crimes from being commited in the future. Had my opinion ever been counted, I'd assign a free fully private no-shaming obligatory licenced therapist to every criminal, because, oh boy, they have so much stuff to unpack that even they themselves may not be aware of. Everyone has, to be fair, but those who feel entitled to harm others - especially. Human mind is a tricky thing.

[@Enerdhil]

@@neant2046 That is a good idea. There should be mandatory therapy for felons.

[@TheSaneHatter]

Several are my comments: a) Thank you, in the first place, for adding to some of the early story of Morgoth's corruption of Men in Hildorien; I hadn't gotten all of these details, even after poring over the resources I do have. b) Secondly, I also thank you for a pretty concise, and quite intelligent summation of what is both an appalling and a difficult subject: several thousand years of what we would today call "racial bigotry" and "ethnic hatred." c) Your passing line of how Morgoth "pit men against each other" not only reflects one my own insights perfectly, but even mirrored its phrasing almost exactly! I've always felt that, in order to put Tolkien's often ethnocentric worldview into a modern persepctive, it's less desirable to invoke a feeling of "the good guys and the bad guys" than it is to depict ALL hatred and violence between men as Morgoth's legacy: racism, ethnic cleansing, nationalism, religious oppression, all of it. d) I'd like to say that, as I've mentioned on other channels, I'd like to address the supposed "exceptions to the rules" when it comes to Men's affiliation in the stories. It's well to reflect on corrupted Northmen like the Variags mentioned in LotR, for example, but I've also always been curious about how Tolkien describes repentant Easterlings during the War of Wrath, or the Sons of Bor and whether all their people were eliminated, or just their soldiers . . . and if so, what happened to them. There's room aplenty for speculation here.

[@sainiharika]

I love that Eru was guiding men through voice. As usual you r the best Tolkien channel out there.

[@devwadehra9896]

Do you mind elaborating on this? Eru literally spoke to humans during the first age?

[@RingsLoreMaster]

​@@devwadehra9896I am reminded of the prologue to John's Gospel. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

[@Ka_T_ya]

Loved all 3 videos from these series,but gotta admit this one was my favorite ! Probably because they are the least discussed in depth and analyzed with empathy group. Great job ! ❤

[@bgcvetan]

Thank you, truly enlightening work on this dark topic.

[@hecate235]

This was almost heartbreaking. Sam, as usual, has it right. Men born, raised, and deceived into hate and violence. This is as great a crime as what Melkor did to elves to create the orcs.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

You are coddling us with commissioned artwork! I mean, how amazing is that. I think you are the first to do that save for Aleksander from Lore of the Rings (not going to count Wizards & Warriors - while their content has improved in accuracy, the illustrations fall often short of being merely satisfying). All hail to the Tolkien curator from Scotland!

[@TheRedBook]

I asked the guy from W&W for some animation commissions but he basically said that he would have to ask them, which was weird. If I could commission even more, I would. Shame more channels don't do it cause plenty can afford to based on their views and sponsors.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@TheRedBook Maybe they have to sustain expensive hobbies 😆

[@TheRedBook]

Hey, I want my guitar collection to grow as well :p maybe I should stop turning down sponsors.

[@ymishaus2266]

The Demon's Souls music catches me off guard every time

[@louisebrouillette5580]

Another great dive into the legendarium...thank you!

[@Davlavi]

Beautiful, look forward to more on the Easterlings.

[@RedQueeenn]

Finally a new LOTR channel to follow, looking forward to seeing more vids to come

[@BenFrayle]

5 am start - I'll see if I can wake up for it!

[@EdwardSnortin]

Legit the best Middle Earth channel on KZbin 🙏

[@MattZeefy]

Nice timing Steven! I was just about to go to bed and this premieres, now I gotta watch

[@josephraffurty9293]

Great series! I really enjoyed all three parts!

[@mrmeowmeow710]

2 mega thumbs up loved this video

[@timkuligfreemusic]

Hey, thanks for using my and Kevin MacLeod's music for your channel! Cheers...

[@IanHeins]

Nice work dude thanks

[@mosesgunn6937]

Superb as always!

[@Matt-ij7pe]

And again, i am in awe of the way in which Tolkien not only pays tribute to human history but his faith, even while insisting he has not written an allegorical work.

[@RingsLoreMaster]

I'm sorry, I do not follow. You're comparing JRRT's faith - an individual and personal affair - to allegory, a multifaceted and widespread reading of society or history.

[@runninblue9415]

My preference of the three episodes, good insight 👌

[@ignaciopardo9098]

Great video as always!! I have always had a doubt about the corruption on men. If men were born at the first sunrise, (thus in the moment the main host the Noldor crossed the Helcaraxe) and the siege of Angband started after the battle of glory (so Melkor couldn't get out) that means that the corruption happened in the 59 years between the two battles. Isn't not a fairly short period of time to have such a profound and last effects on a whole race? Is it credible that Morgoth got out of Angband to the other corner of middle earth while his opponents had just defeated him in 3 times before?

[@istari0]

In his later writings Tolkien was looking into making many changes, one of which would have made the Awakening of Men happen much earlier.

[@istari0]

Rounding out the trilogy in style! A couple of questions: 1. Wouldn't the first Men have at least encountered the Avari Elves? 2. As I understand it, at first Melkor's efforts towards corrupting Men were concentrated in the east, which I take to basically be east of a more-or-less north-south line through the Sea of Rhûn? What about Men who had reached Rhovanion, even Eriador? Or did Men not reach those lands until after the Valar destroyed Utumno and imprisoned Melkor in the War for the Sake of the Elves.

[@johnparish6566]

Thanks for using new artwork.

[@jennipherem3695]

I've spotted a little inconsistency here. At this point Morgoth is supposed to have a fixed form, so couldn't have appeared like a man to them. After he and Ungoliant destroy the Two Trees, Of the Darkening of Valinor says this: "Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought her out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after." And an explanation by Tolkien in Morgoth's Ring: "To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate'."

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

Good catch!

[@TheRedBook]

It's an inconsistency if we accept Christopher's timeline in his edited Silmarillion and ignore what Tolkien himself wrote in the same volume of HoMe: 'The coming of Men will therefore be much further back'; 'Men must awake while Melkor is still in [Middle-earth] - because of their Fall. Therefore in some period during the Great March' (see p. 385 note 14) I didn't go into detail about that but tend to mention that the First Age is in the "reckoning of Men". The Awakening of Men should really be about 3500 "Years of the Sun" by what Tolkien writes. I didn't go into detail about timeline 'inconsistencies' in this video because it would be a whole topic on its own that would take away from the main discussion. Read the essay "Orcs" in HoMe X for more detail about this.

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

@The Red Book this is why you are the most true scholar sir 🫡

[@jimbombadill]

Exellent video!

[@kirandeepchakraborty7921]

So important that we listen to these lost tales.

[@GreatGreebo]

Excited to watch

[@TheRedBook]

Hope it was good!

[@cavetroll666]

Easterlings are amazing thanks my friend for the video :)

[@kirandeepchakraborty7921]

Excellent Video.

[@privatekarateka3745]

Something about the legendarium confuses me. Why did Eru not directly intervene when Melkor was up to his evil but intervened when the numenorians sailed west and attempted to go to valinor. It seems disproportionate.

[@TheRedBook]

I cover this in a video talking about the Numenorean assault on Valinor. Eru rarely directly intervened but did so in the case of the Numenoreans because the Valar directly appealed to him and gave up their own authority due to not knowing what they should do in this very specific case - the free race of Men invading Valinor. By giving up their government, Eru was the higher authority and took action. With Melkor, the Valar were still in charge. Eru still was involved when it came to Morgoth's fate at the end of the War of Wrath. The Valar could not cast Morgoth outside the world without Eru.

[@privatekarateka3745]

@@TheRedBook thank you! Now it's clear :)

[@dfringsofpower]

🔥👁🔥 Men of Darkness The Black Númenoreans, The Dark Cults of Melkor and Sauron, Men of Mordor.

[@mcintma2]

Imagine how far fallen (or how terrified) these men of darkness would have to be, to fight alongside orcs. The grip of the dark religion must have been iron.

[@RingsLoreMaster]

In some of the published letters JRRT concedes that orcs fought on both sides of the War, in reference to WW1. Tolkien explained that dragons are simply very greedy ppl. Avarice and lust come to mind to describe them. Orcs, then, are people who are corrupted, or twisted, through and through. Tolkien's staunch belief that the Elves were not created evil or wicked is well-known, ergo the need for the two dark lords. The exposition of Malice incarnate. A Power capable of corrupting even the most noble.

[@Edward-nf4nc]

For anyone who has only read and watched Lord of the Rings it is of course a yes, but history makes me wonder if the Dunlendings were Men of Darkness or not? They were not really a problem to anyone until the Eotheod drove them out of Calenardhon, where they had lived for many generations or maybe Ages.

[@noturmum7967]

These videos are so hard to consume

[@gandalf4751]

😍😍😍👌

[@RingsLoreMaster]

Your use of "Gods" as pertaining to Melkor and Sauron, is this from the point-of-view of mortals? Perhaps it is the standpoint of the two fallen Maiar?

[@Hero_Of_Old]

I imagine from mortals yes, although the Valar are more considered to be 'gods'

[@kongspeaks4778]

Page upon page of Catholic morality is the only thing in the Silmarillion I find annoying. Beautifully narrated though - this is easily the best Tolkien lore channel!

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

I mean if it was buddhist lecturing would you not mind it?

[@geeljire9247]

Why would you not expect an author to include his beliefs and philosophy in his own books? lol, Where else should he apply the morals in middle Earth from?

[@envee1014]

Tolkien’s Catholic morality underpins his entire plot, so separating it from the story would be like performing a “story lobotomy”. For example, what’s to make Sauron’s actions “evil” without evil itself being defined outside of each character’s opinion or moral code?

[@Enerdhil]

Why is reading about morality annoying to you? It looks like you have a guilty conscience. Just sayin'...

[@RingsLoreMaster]

​@@envee1014doesn't your question apply to all literature? Authur can be hero or villain. One part of the tradition has it that Arthur ordered males toddler age and younger to be rounded up and put in a small boat. This boat was attached to a larger boat. One night the two boats went out to sea. The smaller being attached by ropes to the larger. When the two boats were well out to sea, the ropes were cut and the smaller boat set adrift. In this line of storytelling, Mordred is the hero.

[@jman518192]

You know it still blows my mind that in the world of middle earth there’s still a group of humans going around saying “All hail Morgoth” or “All hail Sauron”. Like from the dawn of mankind to the current day they’ve basically been worshipping Satan and buy into it completely 🤣😒 it’s actually quite hilarious and terrifying at the same time

[@morgant.dulaman8733]

Put yourself in the place of those original men. Your confused and probably just a bit scared of the world that seems so new to you, and the voice that claims to be that of your creator rarely ever gives you a satisfying answer. Then into all this, while you, your family, and your friends all sit around, probably wearing animal skins, some fellow in bright and rich clothing comes and offers all kinds of knowledge and help. All you have to do is trust him and not the voice. Just do his bidding, and your life, that of your friends and loved ones, and especially your children and all who come after will be so much better. I don't say this to justify their fall, but I wonder how many of us would have chosen differently in such circumstances.