Leigh DR4 Pro v Incra LS - what should you buy ?

Leigh DR4 Pro v Incra LS - what should you buy ?
We have now completed our reviews of the Incra LS Positioner and the Leigh DR4 Pro. In this video we compare and contrast them, and focus on.
• The cost to buy
• The total cost of ownership
• What they can do
• The end results
• Ease of use
AND make a decision-as to the one that will stay in The Woografter studio.
The Woodgrafter is a woodworking business that focuses on designing and building be-spoke and customised furniture. I am always interested in commissions, so if you would like to discuss your requirements in more detail please contact me at www.thewoodgrafter.com/contact/
The KZbin channel focuses on the growth of the business from day 1, on the channel we publish on a Tuesday and Friday at 19:00 GMT and cover,
• Business plans
• Tools, tips and reviews
• The workshop design and build
• Marketing
• Customer projects
• Educational videos.
The Woodgrafter has a thriving KZbin based community who regular ask question, post comments and advice. So why not subscribe, hit the notification and join in the conversation. Plans are available as free downloads at www.thewoodgrafter.com/communi...
I hope you enjoy this video, please hit the like button and leave a comment or question; I read and respond to each and every one.
Talk soon.
Andy

[@AB-nu5we]

Great head-to-head review. For years I've used fixed dovetail jigs. That limitation is glaring after a while. I've switched to the DR 4 Pro to get the variable sized dovetails. That little detail makes a big difference, for me at least. Thanks again for taking the time to compare.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+A B Hi, thank you for the feedback. I think the DR4 Pro is head and shoulders above anything else on the market for through and blind dovetails - exactly for that little detail you mentioned . The Incra is more versatile - but I have decided to keep the Leigh as well so I will have the best of both worlds. Cheers Andy

[@bgfunbear]

Wow, incredibly thorough, best comparison I have ever seen, TY for posting this video!

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+bgfunbear Hi thank you, I had these same questions in my mind when deciding what to buy - so thought the answers may help others. Cheers Andy

[@KlausPedersen_gaffa]

Amazing comparison you did. Just what I needed in my decision process. Thank you.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+Klaus Pedersen Thank you Klaus. So what is your decision and why ? Cheers Andy

[@heystarfish100]

Great review and very in-depth personal commentary. I’ve used a incremental position gauge in the past for joinery and had some issues I did not care to work with. I recently purchased the Leigh DR4 Pro with the dust collector and router bit assortment as you showed. Fantastic piece of equipment that I will get to know better soon and grow into further.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+heystarfish100 Hi thank you for the feedback, just out of interest, what where the issues you had. You won’t regret the purchase, put the effot in to master it and it will reward you. I still can’t bring myself to put the Leigh on eBay - and it will probably be my go to jig for dovetails, with the Incra providing everything else. I guess I am just spoiled :-) Cheers Andy

[@heystarfish100]

The Woodgrafter ... Hello Andy! My issue was at the time my router table was a commercial made plastic laminate over MDF with a aluminum router mounting plate. I had constant problems with keeping the plate flushed with the table. It seemed hyper sensitive to humidity creating swelling which led to frequent catching of the stock. I currently own a JessEm Mast-R-Lift Excel with a solid phenolic table with a router lift mounted directly eliminating the troublesome plate. This is of standard size and too small for the Incra but perfect for my size shop space available.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

heystarfish100 Ah go it, thank you for taking the time to to reply. I am considering making an MFT type top that will accept the Festool CMS modules. So I run the risk of repeating your experience. I will experiment before I commit.Thank you for the heads up. Cheers Andy

[@TheFalconJetDriver]

Hi Andy, I have been following your videos on this shootout between the two systems, I decided to drink more KoolAide from the Incra System and I purchased the TS LS joinery system and a new Lift Master II router lift and router top two weeks ago along with the clean sweep for the router. The reason I went this route was several one I wanted an accurate and repeatable fence system for my table saw and router system. I have the Incra 1000 HD miter gage and I really like it. Plus several of their measuring tools the quality is outstanding as you know. I live a two hours automobile drive west of their facility outside of Dallas, TX. I spoke to them on the phone about my potential purchase and they invited me over to visit. And I am glad did. I met with David Barnet he has been with them for 21 years, and he gave me a tour of their facility while showing me around I saw 3 CNC machining centers, years ago I was Field Service Engineer for company that built CNC Machines. that was 38 years ago. Shortly after that I had my wisdom teeth extracted and I became an airplane pilot for a living. It turns out David has an aviation background as well. David spent two hours showing me the TS LS joinery system and answered all of my questions and offered ideas on how set up my system as there were a few options on how to do that. I placed my order they gave me the items that they had in stock, router lift, clean sweep and the clean sweep router plates and the router table top. The TS LS positioner/ joinery system is being built as I write this. The Website stated a 7-9 week delivery. Having visited the facility and seeing production taking place I had no concerns on a long delivery delay. I walked away in confidence knowing that I made the right choice for my self. Also knowing that superb support is only a phone call away.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+TheFalconJetDriver Now that is a great story, I love production factories in general, and to spend that amount of time with a manufacturer like Incra must have been a great experience. I know you aren’t going to be disappointed with your purchase. The value as a fence is worth the investment alone - and I keep finding new things to do with it, it has genuinely changed my approach and workflow. I have lost track of the number times I have flicked it into jointer mode to clean the edge of a board - safe in the knowlesge it will come out 100% flat and square. Let me know how you get on, Cheers Andy

[@frankenberry9670]

I think the main difference is that the Leigh is a dovetail jig while the Incra is a router fence that can do dovetails. The Incra will be more flexible and chew up more space. The Leigh is better at doing dovetails, especially oddly spaced stuff. I don't think including the ISO lock template in the price comparison is entirely fair since I don't think the Incra does it at all. The big plus for the Leigh is the variable dovetail spacing for any width of wood up to the limit of the jig. The big plus for the Incra is that it is a router fence system for a router table and can therefore do a bunch of non-dovetail related stuff the Leigh can't. I haven't checked it out but I have a hunch you could make your own templates for the Incra and therefore do variable width and wider stuff. It would be more hassle but thanks to self publishing on the internet it could become a "thing" with hordes of happy Incra users creating a library of downloadable templates.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi, Thank you for the feedback, there is a program now that allows you to create custom joints on the Incra - and you are correct in that one is a dedicated tool and one is a system. For me the system wins out in this case. Cheers Andy

[@kassahalon3961]

Thank you for an extremely well and comprehensive presentation, as a tutorial for my future use of my Leigh D4R. Well done.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Thank you

[@R71D]

Love the realistic cost of ownership. The review was very helpful.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Thank you for the feedback. Andy

[@paultay23]

Great comparison series Andy. I have the baby Leigh Superjig 12. Well pleased with it for my workshop, although i did buy the DW 625ek router to go with it, which was a big expense just for a hobby woodworker..but its there available to me for other tasks..

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi, thanks for the feedback. The Leigh is a good jig - however I still find myself reaching for the Incra when it’s time to cut a joint. :-) Cheers Andy

[@outlawjjwales]

Thank you, thank you for doing this video I have the incra fence on my table saw and love it and was thinking of adding the incra router wing plus the router attachment fence. I have one of the leigh other dovetail jigs that you use on a router table and not a fan It was less expensive but I really didn't like the results. Nice breakdown

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+outlawjjwales Hi, thank you for the feedback, it’s appreciated. Given my experience if the fence on a router table I wouldn’t hesitate. That would make a great set up. Let me know, Cheers Andy

[@michaelkaye4998]

I had already ordered the INCRA before I watched this video. I was pleased to hear your conclusions 😅.

[@thomasedgar3553]

Great choice Andy I have been using incra systems for years wait to you get the box joint jig really good I am a new subscriber, got to admit love you presentation of the videos down to earth and enjoyable please keep up the good work

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi Thomas, Thank you for the feedback, The next project will be a “modern workbench” build. This will have an inset router with the Incra T Tack. One of the reasons is to incorporate the Incra mitre gauge - that looks awesome. I have seen the box joint jig - but to be honest, the Incra fence does a great job. I may look into it in the future, but not high on the list at the moment. Cheers Andy

[@grahamwhiting6567]

Andy, I've watched my way through both your Incra and Leigh video series. Thank you for a thorough piece of work. Clearly the Incra is a big multi adjustable fence that can do many other things than the Leigh dovetail jig. I have the feeling that most Leigh jigs end up in storage, largely unused, even for those who have gone through the detailed but far too complicated paperwork. Pro woodworkers have many quicker ways of making strong neat joints and amateurs may prefer not to spend their limited creative free time reading and re-reading instructions. The Incra may have way more adjustability and options than most amateurs need - maybe I'm wrong here, but I while I see the range and precision setting attractions compared with my Festool CMS fence, it turns out that the CMS fence has lots of adjustability options and fine setting screws and its not hard to add a fence to the sliding table and have a very adjustable mid size setup in a smaller space. I guess the same is true for other, smaller but still accurate fence and table systems.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+Graham Whiting Hi Graham, it’s amazing how many folk have got in touch and stated that the Leigh is gathering dust. In many ways the Incra is a big fence - the thing that sets apart is that fine adjustment , I never found that on the CMS - one side yes (for the jointer function) it was a pity they didn’t provide that on both sides. It’s that adjusatability (0.05mm) and the templates that give it the joinery functionality. I guess it depends on your joinery type - don’t forget I am trying to soled up production whilst resting quality. Pre power tools I cut the diver tails by hand and never had an issue. So a standard router fonece would do the job. Thank for the feedback. Andy

[@markchurch629]

New subscriber, yesterday in fact, brilliant content so far doesn't appear to have the manufacturer bias that is all over YT.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+mark church Hi Mark, welcome on board, I am biased towards quality tools that make my life easier as a woodworker. But nothing beyond that, just sharing stuff I learn on the journey. Thank you for taking the time to comment, any questions just shout. Cheers Andy

[@markchurch629]

The Woodgrafter thx for the reply, so many on YT are getting paid "One way or another " to promote "Certain " brands, if a brand gives you a tool to review and you don't have to return it, you are being paid in my book and that review is worthless if you purchase a tool with your own money and review it that says everything.so far 100% impressed with content

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+mark church I see what you are saying, it actually costs money to publish on you tube, by the time you invest in the cameras, the video editing gear, sound gear etc you don’t really make any money. So it is increasingly hard to publish quality videos - hence folk looking for sponsorship and paid reviews. So I can’t fault people for that. You need to find a revenue stream, look at this video for example - it has probably made around £5.00 through advertising revenue over its life - the jig I reviewed cost my a few hundred second hand. So will never pay for itself - but then again I don’t expect it to. I don’t want to go down the route of sponsored videos, or paid adverts - as you say I review the stuff I buy for my shop/business. Revenue will come from the products I make, the education school over at thewoodgrafter.com, small amount of advertising revenue and some merch sales. Hopefully keeping it independent. Cheers Andy

[@Trevscuriosites]

I agree with your choice setting up a shop from scratch if you bought the Leigh system you would still have to have a router table to do shaping etc so that would have to be added to the overall cost

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+Trevor Lees Hi Trevor, Thank you for taking the time to comment, that was exactly my point and the reason why I would recommend the Incra over the Leigh. I still use the Incra every day, and since this video I have picked up the table saw module so am also getting that level of precision on my table saw. It is till the way forward for me. If you have all the other things anyway, then the Leigh is a great jig - but setting up from scratch - the Incra makes more sense. Cheers Andy

[@Trevscuriosites]

@@TheWoodgrafter It's the one I want have to start saving my pennies

[@stephendixon8575]

Hey Andy, It's me again (ha, ha). Really interesting to look through your videos on the Leigh system and this comparison to the Incra system. As usual the videos are phenomenally detailed. One point that occurs to me again in this comparison is the point I mentioned to you before about the availability of the free software to make custom templates for joinery using the Incra system. First, this obviously removes any limitations of having to use just the provided Incra templates both in terms of the maximum size of the joinery and having to compromise on your project design. However it also means that you could design a template to suit your available router bits or stock thickness so you wouldn't necessarily have to thickness your stock to suit if you don't have a thicknesser available. I know you said that you had seen the software but hadn't had time to play around with it. If you do it might make an interesting follow up video. I think the thing that really strikes me is, especially give the cost of both systems, how much more versatile the Incra is for so, so many other tasks beyond this sort of joinery and that once you get used to the routine of the Incra process it is probably going to give you more consistency in your work being less dependent some free hand router techniques; and let's face it we all have off days! Thanks again for all your hard work putting these videos together. Hope you get chance to look at that template software. Cheers Steve

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+Stephen Dixon Hi Steve, always good to hear from you :-) I hadn’t thought about using the templates to match your router bits - and the stock thickness comment is a game changer if that can be accommodated by thebsiftware. I will have to put some time aside to have a play. And yes, the Incra is super versatile well beyond the joinery aspects, I wouldn’t be without it in my workshop, one if the best things I have ever purchased. Not sure it gives you better/more consistent results than the Leigh as once you move away from that E7 bush you have removed human error from the equation. Other than stock prep that is, and both systems are 100% dependant on good stock prep. As an aside, would you be interested in joining the Beta program for my web site - could do with some more input, and you are expressing some good views. If so ping me [e-mail] Cheers Andy

[@stephendixon8575]

@@TheWoodgrafter The penny really dropped for me when I watched the Incra video (kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHmpnIR-jtCNhZY - at 19min10sec and again at 48min36sec); it emphasises that "for through dovetails keep in mind that, for a given cutter there is one, and only one, depth of cut that will provide a good fit" and that, once you've established this you then have to thickness your stock to match when doing through dovetails (by definition). That must be why the Incra templates only give a figure for the 'approximate' depth of cut, as exact figure will vary from one cutter to the next. It would seem then that, to do through dovetails, this limitation must hold true irrespective of whatever system or template your using, unless you make tails that are initially proud of the surface and plane them down afterwards? The other dovetail joinery types only specify that the stock must be thicker than the depth of cut, so I guess it's not as limiting. So in theory you could work out the measurements manually for any given dovetail bit to do your own custom design and then just use the Incra for accurate positioning, but the template software should hopefully do all this for you automatically - Let's see eh? Would definitely make an interesting video. Will take a look at your website and drop you an email. Cheers Steve

[@Mark_L]

OK, I have the Incra and love it. I’ve had ir for years so I am u”good” at its operation. I really liked your comparison. You hit the nail on the head.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Awesome! Thank you!

[@bradmartin9816]

Just getting into the world of dovetails so interesting series! So my basic needs through dovetails in 19mm stock up to 600mm long, tick to Leigh out of the box and Incra will maybe do 19mm and need a work around to get the length. Drawer parts in 12 and 19mm and 32mm rabbeted blind dovetails for fronts fairly confident to find a way with Leigh and it is a maybe for Incra. M & T Leigh has that covered at a price, it falls into the nice to have sometimes option for shelves or odd ball boxes. Draw on box joints unless I go long (never say never) which is points for Leigh.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi Brad, The thing to think of first with any of these is what you need to achieve - Leigh is great for longer stock, Incra great for versatility beyond joinery. Remember, they are a great productivity tool. So if you are starting out - then hand cut is a very good way to go (unless you need productivity). Cheers Andy

[@ericjackson2915]

Hi Andy, Another great video! I’d originally considered the Incra system over Leigh, but choice Leigh since I already had the cms router system and didn’t want to deal with another router table. It was a bit tricky learning the nuance of Leigh’s e7 oval guide template, but I was able to generate good-looking dovetails after a few attempts. Your suggestion of using a regular guide template (videos discussing Leigh Jig) has made this even easier! I thought I was done with this decision, but having seen the ingenious way you’ve mounted the LS fence to mft/cms, just awesome! Without a lot of fiddling around, I’ve always found making accurate repeatable horizontal adjustments on the router table an elusive task. With the Incra fence, horizontal adjustments are definitely accurate and easily repeatable. You mention 3 options for the LS, 430mm, 635mm, and 810mm. Question - Is the 810mm the table saw version (TS-LS)? By the way love the way you talk- it’s easy to follow your thoughts and you’re very effective in communicating information. Thanks for the excellent work!

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+Eric Jackson Hi, I just couldn’t get on with the E7 bush, I know it will work with practice - but there are easier solutions. It’s a pity Leigh moved away from the VB bush design they had a few years ago. I have kept the Leigh, as I still think it is superior to the Incra for through dovetails. However I am about to start a build of the coffees table, that will have dovetail drawers. It will be interesting to me to see what I reach for. I think I will naturally reach for the Incra - because I use it every single day of my life, so is now second nature. The Leigh I will need to think about. The 810 is the Incra LS positioner, rather than the fence, so I can think it can be purchased with the standard/super fence or the table saw fence. woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/products/incra-positioner-ls32-only-32in-810mm-metric I now have the CMS table saw module, and the router fence works like a charm (as you would expect). So I would buy 810 with the super fence - All basis covered then. Thank you for the feedback. Cheers Andy

[@TimRoyalPastortim]

Costs were interesting. I have every tool you described except the jig systems described. My entire shop cost less than what you describe including an amazing array of restored handtools. Spending money at the levels you describe simply makes no sense to me, but I do find the Incra LS attractive, especially a TSLS since my router table is a table saw wing.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+Tim Royal Thanks Tim, Costs are subjective. The point was really around the things you require to get the most out of the jigs. In your case as you have most of the stuff anyway - then the LS makes sense. And you get re-use beyond the joinery side of the jig. Everybody will go on there own journey with tools, cost, restores, top of the range, bargain basement etc. But you are still going to need a router to use these jigs. Cheers Andy

[@kojomensah7474]

Things has moved on since I bought one of the first Leigh dove tail jigs but is the d4 any better apart from the dust extractor??

[@TheWoodgrafter]

The DR4 Pro seems to have the dust extraction and the ability for single pass dovetails - but from what I can tell, pretty similar. You can get a kit to upgrade the original D4 to the pro version, if those features make sense. www.axminster.co.uk/leigh-upgrade-kit-for-d-series-jigs-951191 Cheers Andy

[@lmallard3788]

Having had bad experiences with incra, I am very happy with my leigh 18 inch superjig

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Sorry to hear that, I guess it is different strokes for different folks. I love the Incra and haven’t touched the Leigh since this video series. What issues are you having ? A

[@arthurgriffin1210]

Terrific job !! Very thorough and fair. (None of this out of the box review nonsence - that's just me)

[@darvaish4552]

very informative and to the point. thanks

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Thank you for the feedback. Cheers Andy

[@henrysiegertsz8204]

Japanese pull saw, Mitre saddle, set of chisels a coping saw and a marking guage! That covers everything the Leigh does for about £100 plus the satisfaction of never having plugged a tool into the mains to do it! I've had the Trend DC300 for about 20 years, used once, performed poorly and now gathering dust on my shelf! If you want to go the Incra-mental route, Incra make the inexpensive IncraJig, two halves of plastic with toothed racks on each half which mesh at exact 10ths of a millimeter (Metric) or 1/32" (Imperial). You can be up and running with the IncraJig, your own fence in minutes and it is brilliant! Mine's the Imperial I bought in the US while visiting, along with the Incra Mitre 1000SE, 12" Incra Rule, Incra 6" T Rule, the Incra protractor. Incra tools are brilliant, but a TS/LS fence system is for people doing precision woodworking every day for a living, or people with a lot more disposable income than sense!

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+Henry Siegertsz Hi Henry, thank you for the feedback. I think a lot of dovetails jigs end up on the dusty shelf. And for the hobbyist there is real value in using hand tools. Jigs make sense when you are in a production environment knocking out cabinets on a regular basis. To your point, the fence is a considered investment - and everybody is different. I have no regrets on the purchase of the fence - as I am getting so much value beyond the dovetails. But again to your point, it was a business purchase - not a hobby investment. I wasn’t familiar with the Incra jig until you mentioned it - so just had a quick google. That is an inspired idea and a bargain for around £70. I would encourage others to check it out. I may pick one up in the future, perhaps show case it when I build the modular bench build. Thank you taking the time to comment and the top tip on the Incra jig. Cheers Andy

[@paulfrederiksen5639]

Yep you can do everything with just a few hand tools and a ton of hours…. Which is totally fine unless your are a professional producing work where time is worth between $50-$150 and hour. Then a single six drawer cabinet will pay for either system.

[@pfv3462]

best comparison I have ever seen,

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Thank you for the feedback, Cheers Andy

[@jwar2163]

I have the Incra router table setup with super LS 25 with wonder fence the PRL-V2 lift with a Porter Cable 7518 Router. The learning curve is there for the Incra and there for the Leigh. I purchased a Porter Cable Omni Jig 4216 with three different plates for various dovetails. I got it used for 50 usd. I purchased it to whipped out a set of drawers really quick, but the Incra can do so much more and does have so many more uses. I used it to make a dovetail style fence for my 3hp shaper to copy that of the Felder Shaper Fence. Dados are a breeze on the Incra table and the LS setup. On a note too Customer service with Incra both to Incra and to Incremental Tools I had questions with setup and assembly and both companies walked me thru my issues. Only issue I had was a damage wonder fence vacuum port and it was sent to me next day air at Incra's expense. Even after owning the Incra For 3 years Incra is still there for me. Leigh jig is a very nice piece of equipment and I may pick up the Leigh tenon and mortise jig. Because I am lazy and like to do things with power tools. If I had 10 dollars for every time I hit my thumb with a mallet or hammer I would be a very wealthy man.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Agree, they are both great systems and customer service is good for both as well. But as you say, the Incra is so much more - in the end that swung it for me. I do like the look of the Leigh mortise jig - but in the UK it is just daft money, so to hard to justify. I also make the tenons and mortises on the router table with the Incra fence. So I am not sure I would gain much. Glad you are enjoying the system and thank you for taking the time to to comment and share your experience. Cheers Andy

[@jwar2163]

@@TheWoodgrafter Thank you Andy for responding to my post. I love my Incra and I am sure you might even love yours too. I do wish there were a ton more videos on the Incra's usage and the many aspects from usage as a router table for multiple routed profiles, box joints with and without the Incra Ibox jig. Dovetails, dados raised panels, rail stile work. Now that I reflect back on it my router table sees more action than the dovetail jig from Porter Cable. But then again I only picked up the Porter Cable for some quick dovetails for some drawers I was helping a friend build and it too had a learning curve. Hoping to one day master my Incra router table and the LS setup

[@TheWoodgrafter]

I am thinking of re-visiting the Incra in a series of videos. I have learnt so much since I made this series. Cheers Andy

[@jwar2163]

@@TheWoodgrafter I would definitely watch whatever you create with your Incra setup. I am sure I am not alone in that regards. I have moved a lot of my router table work to my 3hp shaper, but I still use my Incra special work and detailed projects. Having the abilities to switch back and forth is a bonus for myself. If only the Incra setup would fit on my shaper table top.

[@chrismoore9997]

If your wife is happy, what more can you ask for. Very nice video series. Thank you!

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Amen to that, got to love those browny points. Cheers Andy

[@larryo2474]

Andy, after watching this whole series on the Leigh jig I have come to realize that both systems are a bit complex. I think a consumer should just pick one and stick to it and learn all the different nuances of the tool. They both seem to work well and I don't think you could go wrong with either one of them once you become proficient in their use.I think the videos would help someone make the decision on which system to go with.Great job in the explanation and practical use of each one. Keep those videos coming. Cheers

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+Larry O Harry Larry, it’s not really complex, just different with a learning curve. I think people walk into a jig with the expectation that great jobs will happen because they have made the purchase. But like any tool their is a learning curve, on both systems I can now set them up and create a joint pretty quickly with good results, without having to think and wade through the instructions. I agree - choose one and stick with it, I think more people will stick with the Incra as it is on the table, and will be used for none joinery stuff every day so it becomes a familiar tool. So will then be used as dovetails turn up in the design. I think weekend wariiors will tend to put the Leigh on one side and be put off because they never get through the learning curve. But for those who put the time in with the Leigh - great results will happen. But you have to keep the skills up. Bottom line it’s up to the individual, and how you will use it. But neither system will let you down when you have mastered it. Thanks for the feedback. Talk soon. Andy

[@timdennis2193]

Can I just clarify something please... with the D4R I can use stock any thickness up to a certain point.. with the Incra i have to potentially use a thicknesser to meet the Incra's requirements?? I have the D4R now but need a router table and fence and like the Incra set up and practicality... Thanks from lockdown Melbourne Australia..

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi, That's only the case with the through dovetails. The Incra needs you to thickness the stock. The Leigh doesn’t care. The Incra is a great fence - since I have installed that I haven’t used the Leigh. In fact it will be going on eBay soon. The stock thicknesing issue hasn’t actually ever been the issue I thought it would be. And you can make your own templates that eliminates the issue completely. For all other joints - both systems can work with any thickness of stock. Cheers Andy

[@timdennis2193]

Thanks for clarifying thst for me Andy... also. Height of timber.. you have to match height with template with incra?? Leigh you don't... I'm just looking at buying an incra but want to know the facts from someone who has been there.. done it.. Cheers

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Tim Dennis On the incra you use templates. Each template has a range of stock thickness and width it can cover. So you select the template for the size of the board. On the Leigh you don’t have that restriction - so long as the board fits in the jig, you then set the fingers to any design you want. From that point if view, the Leigh is more versatile. Regards Andy

[@FD-dh2fu]

Great video and info. So for the Incra through dovetails a planner will be required, thus the price goes up again? Would be great to find a way to create added custom templates for incra...

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi F D, Yes the price does go up if you don’t have a way of flattening the board to the correct thickness. I discussed that in the cost break down. There is now a third party app that gets around that very issue - and adds load more value. It’s on my list of things to review - but haven’t gotten to it yet, however it looks really interesting. www.routerforums.com/threads/pyrouterjig-software-to-make-incra-templates.84490/ Cheers Andy

[@FD-dh2fu]

@@TheWoodgrafter Fantastic. Thank you. I think I will make the investment on Incra as well.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

If it helps, i have no regrets on that purchase. Good luck. Andy

[@kevinmcsweeney6560]

Great info, was looking at the Incra system but a little difficult to find in Dublin

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Thanks Kevin, Do Rutland or Woodworkers Workshop not ship to Ireland ? Cheers Andy

[@kevinmcsweeney6560]

@@TheWoodgrafter cheers Andy will check it out when the world returns to what we used to know, hopefully

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Let me know, Cheers Andy

[@raytracer5726]

Obviously you are going to buy whatever seems more familiar to you. I've worked a lot with a cheap Trend dovetail jig (I think I've jointed well over 300 cabinets with it), and I mostly use a hand router - but it just lacked options, precision, consistency and made tons of dust, so Leigh DR4 pro (with VRS) was like a logical step up for me. I absolutely love the dust extraction. Looking at Incra, it just seems like something I would have to relearn from scratch. And I don't even own a good router table, as I don't really need it. (just a small DIY router table, for template routing of plywood parts). The price difference is not even an issue, if something suits my needs better, I don't care if it's 20-30% or even 2x times more expensive. My woodwork will pay it off in no time.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi Ray, That is a very logical argument and probably wins the debate. I came at this from a hand tool perspective, so have never used either. So both had a learning curve. Ultimately I went for the one that was more likely to be the one I reach for when I need to make something, for me that was the Incra. Both systems give great results, and have the ability to do more complex joinery in some way shape or form. And as I use a router a lot in my joinery, including a router table, it just made sense. And that is exactly what you are saying. Great input, Thank you Andy

[@sierkdejongh8984]

Looking at both series I would favour the INCRA. But, if you almost only do box joints and dovetails, oh, and mortises and tenons, there is a better solution: the Woodrat. This does not use any sort of jig, so it takes a bit more time in preparation, but you can have any spacing and any pin and socket size you want. You are only limited by the sizes of cutters, and even that you can work around. It will normally do joint lengths of around 400 mm max, but with some improvisation it can do longer joints. It also has disadvantages: After a fashion you can put through longer bits for rabetting or rounding over, but dadoes will be almost impossible. I have the combination of a woodrat and a router table, but do not use the rat very much at the moment. It is a wall-mounted device and does not take up much room. You can use it with any router, but it is more comfortable to have a dedicated router is it. Worthwile looking at the website!

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Thank you for the tip, I’ll have a look into it: Andy

[@KelvinARobinson]

Leigh all the way for me. I have had mine for 10 years or so and didn't find it hard to learn. In fact I produced perfect joints straight out of the box. You also were wrong on a number of points. Inlaid or double dovetails are easily done on the Leigh. I have the through mortice and tenon jig and very surprised to hear the price you said, are you sure it was the template for this jig? they do have a standalone dedicated mortice and tenon jig that would be around the price you mentioned.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+Kelvin Robinson Hi Kelivin, glad to hear you are having success with the jig. The point about the other joints where the need for additional templates for the isometric joints and selection of box joints - so additonal purchase. I love the Idea of the M&T jig - the problem is I can’t find a stockist in the UK. Contacting Leigh’s distributer in the UK reveals. High price due to import tax and a long waiting time. Ordering directly from the US also atracts import duty and shipping costs so it artificialy pushes the cost up. The tax man is happy - but makes it an expensisve proposition. Wihich is a shame as it looks excellent. I will try and pick one up next time I am in the US. I agree, I did find the Leigh jig easy to use off the bat for through and blind dovetails - with excellent results. To the point where I am going to keep it in the shop for those activities. The point of the video was more around if you could afford only one in your shop. What would I go for, that would still be the Incra for the versatility. Now I didn’t know you could do double dovetails on the Leigh - will look into that, thank you for the tip. Cheers Andy

[@markhooker8520]

I watched with interest because I'm looking for a way to make the seat-to-seat-back box joints seen on the "Zig Zag" chair designed by Gerrit Rietveld. The two pieces come together at angle that is not perpendicular; it is perhaps 110 degrees. I'm interested enough that I've actually had dialog with Leigh on how best to do it. Anyway, regarding the video, at any length a video of this kind ought to be packed with information. This video is just way too long for the amount of information it conveys. I'd guess most of what you describe could be adequately conveyed in moments by a well-written specification sheet, and the rest would be best presented as the jigs being shown in use to make whatever key points there are more vivid. In any case, I'm enjoying your channel. Keep going!

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+Mark Hooker Hi Mark, Thank you for the feedback, in reality I never intended to make this video, I have produced so much in-depth material on the two jigs that I didn’t have much else to add in terms of demo. I had numerous questions as to what would I buy having had hands in experience of the two. So this video satisfies that length. Video length tends to be a little subjective, some folks like the longer length and some folks like the shorter length. I tend to work more on the contained information and the length is the length. Sorry if it missed the mark for you. Having said that, I am revisiting video length a part of the next phase of the channel - so shorter episodes with less information in them, but more videos in a playlist (if that makes sense). Thank you for taking the time to provide feedback. Good luck with the zig zag chair - would be good to see the outcome of the build. Cheers Andy

[@henrysiegertsz8204]

I suspect your audience is going to be of more advanced woodworkers. Good choice, Incra rocks!

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi Henry, The Incra face is probably only top three things I have purchased for the workshop. Really great bit of kit. Thank you for the comment. Cheers Andy

[@kimdalzell3316]

Hi Andy, thank you for your comments on both units, it is hard for me to pick between the two except for the fact I have a Leigh DR4, and in the next few weeks will be upgrading it to the pro as well as getting the vac attachment and box joint template. I have had the actual Leigh Jig for many years and it has been gathering dust all this time. now that I am retired i will have the time to play with it. I also like the accuracy of the Incra unit and have thought seriously about getting the unit as well maybe in the future. I have a Festool router as well as the MFT3 and router table set up with the 2 legs which fits onto the MFT3. Sadly if I purchase the incra I will have problems with the fitting unless I mount it on the MFT3 table for it to work.So at this stage I will see how I go with the Leigh and then go from there. Thanks again for your complete and fair discussion on both units very enjoyable content Regards Kim. PS Rumors are at least in Australia Festool have stopped production on the MFT and CMS units for the time being maybe to bring them back later if they get much of a backlash.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+Kim Dalzell Hi Kim, in your situation it is a no brainier but to dust off the Leigh and get cracking. You will not be disappointed and will get great results. I hadn’t heard that romour - and must confess I would be surprised, certainly around the MFT - I would have thought that (and the Domino) are an entry point for many people into the Festool universe. I think the CMS is an acquired taste - so would have limited value (unless you really do need that functionality on job sites.) Time will tell I guess.

[@henrysiegertsz8204]

How many dovetails and box joints do you intend to make, it'll need to be more than a lot for ROI?

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Henry Siegertsz If you are looking to off set this by the dovetail then yep a lot. If you are looking across multiple projects with multiple draws then not so bad. But that is more of a small cabinet business rather than a hobby shop. You get more value from the Incra - but still a decision. That has to be thought through. Cheers Andy

[@henrysiegertsz8204]

@@TheWoodgrafter Woodworking is like my other hobby, Photography, in that it is plagued with Gear Acquisition Syndrome, (GAS) and sadly too many people have got it really bad! (notice I resisted the obvious joke there)!

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Henry Siegertsz Hi Henry, I actually read your comment at speed - and for a moment I was about to emphasise about your GAS related problems. Then luckily my brain kicked in and I looked at your comment again. LoL I also have photography as a hobby - and boy can that swallow money. A Canon DSLR fan - a Canon EOS was my childhood dream camera - and one day I could finally afford one. Love it - but I still long for the simplicity of my old second hand Olympus OM-10. So everything that shines is not always gold. Talk soon Andy

[@georgesmith7773]

the Incra templates are only a guide. an experienced wood worker will add or omit pins and tails to enhance the guids. the next step up from Incra is CNC. where starting prices are in the high 5 figures.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

+George Smith Hi George. thanks for the feedback, The Incra templates are more than a guide - they pretty much dictate what hapens on the joinery. Adding or missing a pin/tail from the equation doesn’t change much on the Incra. Cheers Andy

[@simonfraser1624]

I love the content of your videos. May I offer a piece of advice about videography, which will be valuable in all of your future videos, and improve the appearance of your many educational presentations. Lighting: your pieces to camera have poor shadowing and lighting of you face. As your camera is (usually) in a fixed position it would be very easy to add a small diffused lighting unit which with a bit of trial and error with positioning should easily improve this aspect. Hope this helps.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi Simon, Thanks for this - I am planning an upgrade of the lighting at that end of the workshop- bit shadowy overall. Since this video I have added a small LED panel over the camera - still not the quality I want. But better than it was. Thanks you for the feedback - comments and improvement ideas always welcome. Cheers Andy

[@simonfraser1624]

@@TheWoodgrafter Hi Andy, yes I'm sure that improved general lighting will be better for your workshop, but for the camera you'll need a specific, and very easily made, solution. Just like the reporters do when doing a piece to camera on telly. Soft light from behind the camera. Keep up the good work.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Simon Fraser Yes good point, Just had a look at three point lighting - I need a solution that enables that - but is friendly on space as at some point I still need to be able to make stuff. I’ll get there. Cheers Andy

[@thomasedgar3553]

Incra mitre gauges are brill they are better than the Osborne eb3 I would personally look at the 100hd and above they cost a bit ,but pure quality keep up the good work

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi, I am probably going to build something around the 5000 system - www.incra.com/miter_gauges-miter5000.html - need to find the technical specs for it to see if I can adapt the CMS modules to work with it. Watch this space.

[@thomasedgar3553]

@@TheWoodgrafter that will be interesting really looking forward to see what you come up with incra products are really good tools personally I love um best of luck with your project

[@lobird23]

very nice video. targeted to a specific user. biased but entertaining.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Thank you, biased in what way. I purchased both with my money - and tried to present the facts. Cheers Andy

[@lobird23]

I believe the bias is in the metric assessment. I own both metric and imperial tools. I find that Europeans are reticent to adopt both and I view that that as entirely biased.understanding both systems may be challenging for some, but for most intelligent woodworkers, critical views are just biased. Adapting to Imperial or SAE is not that difficult, it is just bias.For Example, In Canada, they deal with both and have no problem. It reminds me of an old engineer that I worked with years ago. he told me that he had no problem working with the metric system, as long as the centimeter was one inch long.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Got it, so your point was more around a bias between imperial and metric rather than one system it another. In that case, yes I do favour a single system in the shop. And for me that is metric. I was brought up with the imperial system so don’t have an issue with either. But in the shop I want to eliminate as many points of error as I can. Having tools with multiple measurement systems mandates you have to flick between systems - thereby introducing the potential for error. It is also the reason why all my measuring gear and tools are calibrated to a common ref rule in the shop. So a 1000mm is a 1000mm. I find that in the UK the younger generation work exclusively in metric and increasingly use those in discussion and design phase. My generation is probably the last one that will use imperial, and although customers do discuss projects in imperial now and then, it is getting less and less. Even then I will convert imperial to metric in the design phase as that is the system in my shop. Thank you for taking the time to explain. Andy

[@lobird23]

@@TheWoodgrafter yes, as part of this evaluation.

[@glenpowel]

@@TheWoodgrafter Excellent overview; very helpful. I didn't see it as biased whatsoever. What a weird comment to make. Stick to either metric or Imperial; mixing the two is completely unnecessary. I grew up on Imperial but only use metric, which I find easy to use and extremely accurate.

[@michaell7877]

U used the top of the line routers. Most people don’t buy that way. I have all of them including the Incra LS TS system. Which includes for the router, but the table saw too. The Incra is far superior system. It’s really not an equal comparison. My router system is on my table saw. So it is really a better system.. Pain in the butt though to install.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi, It depends on what you want and what you feel comfortable with. I like the Incra system - due to the versatility as a joinery system and as great fence. Yes set up can be a bit tricky, but the build instructions are pretty easy to follow. I do tend to invest in quality gear - as I use it as part of my business, and I do believe it pays fir itself in the long run. Cheers Andy

[@Tensquaremetreworkshop]

So, around £1600 for a router table and fence. Or you could spend that on a CNC machine. Which I did. Not only way more versatile, but I don't even have to be there- you cannot get any more time-saving than that!

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi Mike, Different tools for different jobs. Just pop to IKEA and cut out the tools completely. As a matter of interest, what CNC did you go for. I am looking at the WorkBee from Ooznest. Cheers Andy

[@Tensquaremetreworkshop]

@@TheWoodgrafter That is exactly what I have, built last November. Have done a few mods since- and a few videos on it. Installing- kzbin.info/www/bejne/gH-kfWChnLqHq80 and kzbin.info/www/bejne/eWPbZXWrmLSeptk Upgrades - kzbin.info/www/bejne/rmmyiqGcbZyXaLc and kzbin.info/www/bejne/aZTbaZ5-adBod6c You might find them of interest.

[@hj8607]

There really is no comparison between these dovetail production options . The Leigh is a ONE TRICK PONY . You will need a router (table also) in your shop for a multitude of other functions . SO that is not an additional expense. Again, the Leigh can ONLY make dovetails and a few other joinery options . The INCRA system is a top notch router fence system that can turn you into a masterful router technician . And on top of that the Incra LS s easily utilized as a table saw fence (nothing else comes close). (in dollars . Leigh : $ 499.00 (unit only, does nothing else ) Incra 549.00 (multiple uses of which dovetailing is just one SO ..... Incra ~ $ 45.00 cost for dovetailing )

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi Harry, Pretty much the conclusion I got to. I still have the Leigh jig BUT haven’t used it since making this video series. The Incra however - gets used one way or another every day, and yes I have cut many more dovetails. Cheers Andy

[@hj8607]

@@TheWoodgrafter I enjoy your videos , thank you (just a big fan of Incra products )

[@TheWoodgrafter]

I am with you, the new router table/table saw is going to have provision for the Incra mitre and obviously re-use the Incra positioner. Cheers Andy

[@helomech4410]

When cutting box joints, the Incra has a one big advantage. The ability to cut multiple boards at the same time. 4 boards. 8 boards. 10 boards. No problem. Can't do that on the Leigh.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Thank you, as always it depends on what you are doing. I have found that batching on the Incra can introduce minor errors that show in the fit. But it is still my tool of choice - and my biggest no regret purchase.

[@helomech4410]

@@TheWoodgrafter Andy, I'm happy to say I haven't had that experience when batching. After assembling the Right Angle Fixture, I did note the fixture was not 90 degrees to the Pro Fence. I subsequently shimmed the fixture to correct that issue, which might explain why I haven't seen the errors you mentioned. Like you and so many others, the Incra LS on my router table and table saw are my biggest no regret purchases. All the best!

[@misterfee6467]

Your adding crazy router stands to the incra, not sure if that's fair but ok

[@silverfox8801]

This is the most criminally under subbed wood porn channel on KZbin!!!!

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi Silver, Does that make me a porn star then ???? Cheers Andy

[@NBGTFO]

The Leigh DR4 Pro is the top of the line jig. Incra doesn't even come close.

[@mikeygee4564]

I can't see why one would invest in anything but the Incra. It can do everything the Leigh can and about a million more things on your router table setup, which is very accurately indexed. No contest imo

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Hi Mikey, I love the Incra, it is one of those tools that gets used every day in the shop. Regards Andy

[@mikeygee4564]

@@TheWoodgrafter cool, good to hear. I've had my eye on that whole system for a while now. And while it's much cheaper here in the states than it is in a UK it's still pretty darn expensive and I'm having trouble as a hobbyist justifying the spend. Maybe one day when I get good enough I can reward myself with one.

[@amdenis]

Actually, you can continue the pattern of the Icra to extend beyond the 430mm. I’ve done well over 4 feet of Dovetails.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Oh that is. good tip, how do you do that ? Andy

[@cameronmcarthur9951]

Out of my pay grade, not worth the effort to hear you rambling on.

[@TheWoodgrafter]

Thanks for the feedback Cameron, Cheers Andy

[@ivanscountrymusicandcars2357]

Confusing comment.