Let me tell you stories about Break-in.

#hifi #audiophile #stereo #audioreviews #highfidelity
Gear mentioned in this video:
PMC DB1 Gold speakers
Decware AMP
Cayin CS150 integrated tube amp

[@ThomasAndStereo]

Cables discussion: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gJvEd2qoZ8aWpck Audio discussion playlist: kzbin.info/aero/PLtkU4eRp056bRN8b4opAFCg21ICgyszh0

[@08jamu]

By the way, I am yet to receive the response from hifiexpress regarding activation of coupon code for SMSL products!!!

[@ThomasAndStereo]

@@08jamu You emailed them and they have not answered you?

[@08jamu]

@@ThomasAndStereo yes.

[@kibreddy]

Thomas, I used to think people who say cables make a difference are low IQ fools or pretentious audio snobs, I have an engineers brain and know how these things work. A cable is only a conductor and at these voltages, gauge should make no difference. I have an expensive system but used 10 dollar bare wire cables I had cut myself. After a year of this, I purchased a 100$ THICK speaker cable (from a OKish brand, didn't want to spend much) purely because it had factory terminated banana plugs, and swapping cables between my Denon 3700 receiver and Marantz Model 30 receiver will be easy. I was SHOCKED that it sounded different - It was warmer, less shrill. The sharp top end was a real pain and this solved it for me! Given this experience, I then looked online and purchased a pair of 2nd hand VDH RCA's to connect the Chord DAC to the amp. This time, the change was even more dramatic with a fully flushed out mid range, very sweet sounding. I was stupid and arrogant to use cheap cables in an expensive system, when people like you with experience in this field keep saying cables matter. Lesson learned. Still don't think expensive cables are not a good idea, but I will never go for the low end stuff again. I actually think if you get bored of your systems sound, instead of spending money on expensive speakers and amps, Id get different cables to swap and tweak the sound a bit.

[@socool8860]

Thank you, thank you for this video. I have experienced break in with good and not so good results W/ cables and components and to hear someone that’s experienced the same let’s me know it’s not my imagination

[@angelochung9803]

I have two sets of MA bronze 100 speakers. One with two month old with about 200 hrs run time. The other arrived two month later. I wanted to find out if this break in thing was real or not. I did extensive A/B listening for couple of days. Keeping all other variables the same, just switched speakers and listened. At the first switch I was able to hear the difference clearly. No scientific measurements but repeated listening to the same 20 second of the same song. I agree with which one do I like more is a different story but they sound differently. I can only speak of this one specific brand but I try to use my equipments to enjoy music, not to use music to listen to my equipments. After all I enjoy all the cuisines including the experience. can’t just eat rice everyday :) By the way, I really enjoy your channel. It has positively influenced my hobby. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. And I think listening to music and playing with equipments are two separate hobbies :)

[@XiMu1]

When I met my wife I would love to hear her voice but after break- in, not so much.

[@siriosstar4789]

LOL 😂🤣😆

[@stevesmith3033]

I'm glad to see you bring up this discussion. I will share my opinions as a guitar amplifier manufacturer who is in the tireless and very thorough pursuit of tone. I will list what breaks in and the order in which they break in the fastest. 1st is solder joints. These break-in in just a few minutes. 2nd is tubes. I would say after 20 minutes you know what you're getting and that will continue for hundreds of hours before they noticeably start to sound tired. 3rd is speakers. Especially low frequency drivers. They can change drastically initially and then will level out for years and then start to get loose, soft and lethargic. 4th is capacitors. They will show thier sound characteristics immediately and improve about the same rate as tubes. They will stabilize for the longest amount of time, generally decades and then they will decline. Again sounding tired, lethargic, muddy and dirtier. Also I should mention what happens with wire. Specifically the insulation. Cloth covered wire doesn't break in. All synthetic insulation goes through a warm up at first turn on. The softer the insulation the more obvious the change. Also the thickness of the insulation affects the sound. The thicker it is the more it interferes with the natural sound and can choke, flatten and harden the sound. These are just my opinions and based on decades of experimentation and having wire and capacitors custom made. I hope some of you find this enlightening and helpful in your pursuits of better sound.

[@machwind3266]

I experienced break in on an expensive USB cable. I was baffled that it sounded dull with alot of bass, and the midrange and treble were almost nonexistent, lifeless. After about a week it was broke in and sounded great. What happened down at that level? Electrical field flow disruption?

[@stevesmith3033]

@@machwind3266 Hmmmm that's a significant change beyond break-in. If nothing else in your system was an issue I can come up with two possible solutions. Either a poor internal connection that through movement of the cable, it found its way. Or there was still some lubricant film left on the conductive materials from manufacturing that came off through repeated insertions.

[@simonzinc-trumpetharris852]

​@@machwind3266it's digital not analogue..

[@edholmwood]

When I used to work for a very large pro audio speaker manufacturer we all knew that mechanically speakers change over time. It is measurable. The spider and surround will loosen and become more compliant and if over driven the voice coil can heat up and expand sometimes seizing in the gap. I do think that mechanical items like a speaker driver do have a break in period. I also think that tube gear has a break in period. Solid state, I am not so sure. My 2 cents.

[@thierrybernot9369]

Let’s talk about Yamaha integrated 1200, 2200 series…

[@Matt-ko5ib]

Then why don’t the speaker companies break them in before selling them? Buying something that sounds great to my ears only to change over time is silly.

[@timchi7484]

@@Matt-ko5iband yet this world is silly ~ it’s more fluid, dynamic and unpredictable than we think.

[@Matt-ko5ib]

@@timchi7484 what does that have to do with anything?

[@Scottlp2]

@@Matt-ko5ib why don’t speaker manufacturers take hundreds of hours playing music through each pair of speakers before selling them? I suppose it is the least one could expect from eg Wilson or other $$$$$ manufacturer. Next interview of speaker designer someone should ask them.

[@geir8849]

I had an amplifier at home for a couple of months when I was waiting for a new amplifier, the same model that was under production. The first was a demo model, with over 1000 hours of playing time. When I got the new model, the difference was night and day between the models. Lack of bass, compressed soundstage and harsh highs is typical traits with new gear. I experience this with many products, but with the amplifiers it was a direct comparision with a new and one that was broken in.

[@brianfitzsimmons7135]

“People are fundamentally good.” I ❤️ this and this what I say all the time. I can tell how that’s how you feel about humanity. Because I can see that positive energy in your style and how you express yourself. 👏🏿

[@ThomasAndStereo]

Thanks, how we look at the world is a reflection of ourselves.

[@erics.4113]

I feel like I can be good at getting the best out of not-so-nice people because I tend to validate their experience. Not their view or mindset specifically but to allow the possibility that someone else may be experiencing some kind of anguish at a moment I may be feeling joy. I'm not entitled to know everyone's full circumstances so when I bump into someone acting crusty out there I give a lot of leeway and compassion and realize I don't need to have their feeling rub off on me, and they are possibly justified to feel angry at that particular moment. All that said. You all picked the wrong gear and no amount of break in gone fix dat. Hahaha 😉

[@mpp9964]

I’m sure break in does exist to varying degrees, but I also think a lot of the break in is in fact human break in. As audiophiles (or whatever term you care to apply), we are usually coming from another piece of equipment, and that original equipment has created a sonic baseline in our minds. Put in different gear and I find I get acclimated to the sound of the new gear after a period. We kind of recalibrate to that new equipment during the same time the equipment is supposedly ‘breaking in’, and usually that accommodation ends up being favourable. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

[@erics.4113]

I'm with this comment completely. The equipment may still be settling in/breaking in during this period, however our personal adjustment period seems far more significant in my experience. What's actually breaking in most? Because I'm sure a lot of the same characteristics that are emerging to my brain were there in the beginning, it just took me some time to be consciously aware of them. This has happened in my personal life. As I've broken in my girlfriends, sometimes I realize after break in period that they're real crap. And then I look back and was like yah. You were that way new out of the box too. Just noticed it now. Box it list it

[@mariopenzo]

I am not sure how many have tried this already. But one experiment that could help prove or disprove the break in hypothesis, is to have listeners compare a broken in device with a brand new one side by side. If there is a clear perceptual difference then the break in period does work. If not, the most likely explanation is that of adaptation, or other experience-dependent phenomena. After all experience-dependent changes in the brain including the auditory system is well established.

[@erics.4113]

@@mariopenzo I think that's a valid experiment but the possible problem is who says that two pieces of the "same" equipment are in fact, the same. Especially with something like an amp that contains a whole bin of parts. And when it comes to break in of speakers, you could say the same of the drivers and crossover.

[@kman7222]

agree. it is us that is getting broke in. our ears, brain etc that are re-adjusting,

[@AllboroLCD]

Focal "burns in" every speaker they make before it leaves the factory. They got huge sheds behind their building that gets loaded up, and they literally play them on blast until break in occurs. I trust Focal as "reputable" , so it must be a real thing!

[@lekmannen9990]

I just bought a pair of Canton A35 a few days ago and either I’m insane or break in very very real with these speakers. The mids went from sub par to crazy good. I’m happy …maybe insane but happy :-)

[@9876rayray]

I can tell you as a Focal Kanta 2 owner, the so called factory burn-in is just an initial burn-in, the speakers are by no means at its top state when they leave the factory, you still need to burn in the speakers for quite some time yourself to let it perform.

[@julienfesty]

Break-in is applicable to mechanical systems like speakers, cars, bicycles.... But for an electronic circuitry is different, there are mechanicals and chemical actions but at the atom scale which is quite hard to notice with the humain ears...

[@AllboroLCD]

@@julienfesty I do find cable "burn-in" a bit of a reach, the term is certainly applied inappropriately all over the place for sure!

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

There is no doubt. I build my own stuff. If you have ever used Blackgate capacitors, you know they have a very long and pronounced break in. Good at first and all over the place and then after 100 hours very special. Once you hear it clearly, it becomes more apparent even on parts that are not so obvious. But a good capacitor in a critical spot such as a coupling cap is clear. Speakers break in and the physics is simple. In addition to capacitors in the crossover settling, you have surrounds and spiders that wear in and sound different. I use vintage drivers. Put some break fluid on the surround to loosen it and it sounds very different different. The mechanical dampening is changed. Capacitors are easy to hear break in. The sound starts out tight, mechanical and not right. With use, the sound comes alive. Dynamics improve. Low level information emerges. Sound stage will get wider, deeper and more 3d. Later you can even hear new resistors and sometimes even fresh solder joints. Fairly brief, but definitely there.

[@Dortch3]

Thomas, this makes me think about break-in completely different than prior to viewing. Historically, I simply went by the manufacturers suggestions, for they "should" know their products better than anyone. I experienced this first 20 years ago with the purchase of a Cambridge Audio D500se CD player. Cambridge as well as the salesman suggested I let it play for 3-4 days...and they were right. The sound went from static to music right before my very ears. From that point on, I would email the manufacturer...just to be sure. Now, you make me want to break-in everything...regardless. I also like your hours on / hours off approach.

[@trucchuong1726]

Another great vid from you! I totally agree with you. You handle this "sensitive" subject matter professionally and educationally. Thanks again Thomas and have a good day!

[@blairholmesproductionsinc.9432]

I’ve watched many of your videos and think they are terrific! This was my fave! Well done Thomas!

[@prabinpaudel5572]

You're so calm, collected and composed all the time. I love that. ☺ Best wishes! ❤️

[@timmyhammond]

I was all ways on the fence about "break in" periods. But, after I upgraded my polk speakers to focal 806 choras, I'm a firm believer in it. I'm running a marantz NR1200 with them and the 806's were very fatiguing. After a couple hundred hours of break in, they are so much mellower and detailed.

[@robk5745]

Thomas you’re getting close to 60k subscribers, well done man! High level audio discussions like this, is priceless... I’ve experienced the pre break in preference with speakers before, bass changed to something I did not like.

[@fishingbear69]

Very Honest and very sincere,,of your observations , excellently done.

[@BIZ-WIZ]

You have a lot of fun on here talking to people who just don’t get the “audiophile” world we live in - who cares what they think!! They don’t get it and they’re not supposed to. Since when did the experts on any subject care to come to the Internet to discuss their views or look for validation from the less informed… Great tips in the video by the way!!!🤩

[@realworldaudio]

Thank you Thomas for the excellent discussion! Indeed, there are some gear where the effects of break in are barely (if at all) audible, and for other gear it can be extreme. The most extreme break-in I experienced was with my Altec speakers: at the start they were easily, by far the worst sounding speakers I ever had, and during 2 months they completely transformed and sky rocketed to the stratosphere. I noticed that the fewer the parts count, the more prominent and longer the break in is. On the other hand, when a unit uses a lot of error correction and very complex circuitry the break in will be little noticeable as the internal mechanisms do not let it show.

[@algorithminc.8850]

Thank you. Finally someone sensible - talking about scientific method - not making it a sports game. Concepts of observation and problem formulation and bias ... Thank you.

[@kenjeffries9736]

I love your show!! I've experienced break-in results on almost every audio piece I've owned. Most recently my Hegel H390 and Kef LS50 Metas. I'm sure everyone has experienced the "man that sounds so different". when you put something on and you're not even thinking that there was supposed to be some kind of change. It's just there. I tend to listen to the same things over and over again, so when you start hearing something you've never heard before, it's like how in the heck could I have missed that all these years, esp. getting older and the hearing weakens! Things change! Anyway, it's fun stuff regardless and a hobby that never really gets boring. Thanks again Thomas.

[@andrewsmith3121]

I know you are specifically talking about electronic audio gear, but I also like to think about instruments and how that relates back. Guitar or violin strings change over time and with use, and the tension is adjusted to accommodate. Drums change sound over time with repeated strikes, and changing the sound to be consistent can be a challenge. I know sound engineers are constantly challenged at different venues, even with simple things like xlr cables for the microphones, and how long the run needs to be based on stage sizes. Tube amps and preamps do have sonic changes as the tubes age. Electrical circuits are supposed to be consistent with formulas to calculate things out, but resistors and capacitor circuits show variations in the amps and voltage when you have sensitive enough measuring equipment. So, YES, maybe!?!?!

[@michaelmityok1001]

B

[@engong2083]

Thanks Thomas. Love your well balanced unbiased reviews. You're a true audiophile.

[@ThomasAndStereo]

I appreciate that!

[@firedragon1876]

Love the video I experienced break-in with my Klipsch rp600m. When I first got them I thought they were were kind of bright and lacked bass. After a a month or two they sounded amazing and found a fair amount of bass. I am definitely a believer in break-in.

[@johndavies6253]

About 18 months ago I bought a nice DAC/headphone amp combo, the first hifi purchase in 30 years! I switched it on and plugged in my headphones and it sounded a little flat and thin. I played around with the filter settings and the other simple functions and after 30 minutes or so it started to sound lovely and detailed, I was delighted. I always leave it on, but for some reason I switched it off over a weekend and when I came back to use it, that same flat and thin sound was back, but lasted only for a couple of songs before returning to its usual lovely self. Maybe it like to work warmed up, but maybe it’s me. My ears are 50 years old, so I don’t rule out either explanation. Great video, keep them coming!!

[@interesting7906]

I would say a little break in is needed for amp and speakers. Capacitor conditioning is real, and speakers driver suspension need little time to loosen up. I have an amp that needs to get warmed up to get to the proper class A bias. I believe the sound may change for totally scientific and testable reasons.

[@PearlAcoustics]

Dear Thomas. Thank you for another excellent video! I loved the Greek philosophy and statistical inputs! + ‘believing there is something good in everyone’. This is my belief too. Now to the topic. As a loudspeaker manufacturer , we always break in (we call it ‘Run in’) our drive cones for at least 350 hours, prior to mounting them into their enclosures and final testing, which includes the usual test procedures (impedance curve etc.) and we also listen to every pair, before they leave the factory. We do this because the spider (the corrugated material that supports the voice coil) benefits from being gradually exposed to movement. We believe a good start in life is always beneficial. It helps it become more pliable. So we subject it to very low volume, gradually increasing day by day over 15 days. We put all kinds of source material through them from speech to opera, rock heavy metal, piano etc. (Surprisingly, speech can be very demanding on a driver). We do this because we want our loudspeakers to arrive at our customers, knowing they are ready. Some customers say that they still improve over time, but I am not sure if that is psychological or not. Except, the longer I keep my gear, the more I seem to like it! 😉.

[@Evil_Peter]

I always enjoy discussion videos like these. It's great to hear proper logical thinking with the call to adhere to the scientific method and statistical facts. It's interesting to hear about your experiences and what was especially interesting was that I finally got to hear someone say that something sounded worse after break in. That's always been something I found odd about break in stories - the products always became a lot better. Of course there is some logic behind it as proper tuning of gear will be made with broken in units, as long as the company believes in it, but in the end it's still a change and the taste in how audio products should sound is very subjective so it would only make sense that some like broken in products less. It also begs the question if the break in period is journey to it's "permanent" (within a reasonable time frame) state or if it will keep on changing significantly over time? Not an easy question to answer seeing as we haven't pinpointed break in to begin with. Personally I'm undecided on the matter. I don't have enough experience to have formed a proper opinion on my own, so I'm left at looking at the experiences of others and using logic. I have no reason to doubt that people are experiencing differences but also feel like significant changes should be easy to both prove and to demonstrate. Are people fooling themselves or do we just not have enough proper research on the subject? Perhaps a bit of both, as even if break in is real I'm sure some of us are still also being subject to various biases and expectations.

[@NightAndDay247]

Thomas, thank you for your wisdom. This video put a big smile on my face. I’m braking-in a set of top level headphones right now. Yes, I believe in the break-in of speakers, headphones, amplifiers, and preamplifiers. I believe in it because I’ve experienced it. I’ve never heard it in a DAC, but I only have 3 DACs. Thanks again Thomas.

[@cabronesse386]

I love this hangout buddy and chat channel approach! It really is something good for the hifi community.

[@jackbarnard1781]

Oh I'm a firm believer in break in. I gave my speakers & electronics a gentle 600 hour break in. The rewards are 10 fold. When I was young I've blown out many pairs of speakers. By not doing it correctly & not knowing any better 😀

[@BadMonkeyFinger_Audio]

When I was a kid, I bought a pair of NHT 1.3As. The store didn't have new in box, so I borrowed the demo models until mine came in on order. Once they arrived at my place, after having gotten used to the sound of the demo models, I positioned mine right next to the demo models to do a quick A-B. I was baffled to hear a fairly 'drastic' difference between the two exact same models. The demos sounded open, full, and dimensional. The new ones sounded flat as heck, no bass, no sense of space. It was bad enough for me to call the store to ask what was going on. They told me to be patient; the speakers require a bit of time to break in and loosen up. I didn't know this was even a 'thing' at that time, but I DID know for certain that there was a very noticeable difference between the two pairs of speakers. The store was correct; they loosened up after several hours of playing, and just kept getting better until they plateaued. This is the reason that to this day, I don't comprehend why seemingly so many people don't believe in any sort of break-in. With that said, I'm with you in that not EVERYTHING has noticeable break-in, and some has more than others. It all depends.

[@ThomasAndStereo]

Yup, anyone have real experience with understand.

[@budgetaudiophilelife-long5461]

🤗 SERIOUSLY THOMAS.. I HAVE TO APPRECIATE YOUR THOROUGHNESS AND YOUR BACK GROUND WITH YOUR JOB YOUR REASONINGS MAKES PERFECT 🤩 SENSE TO ME AND I HAVE EXPERIENCED BREAK-IN with some things with a little difference and others a GREAT DIFFERENCE AND I APPRECIATE YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR 🤗 it helps to keep your sanity 😉😍😍😍

[@hushpuppykl]

I’ve heard the difference for break in with some components. It’s not about my ears adapting because when playing tracks that I am familiar with, I hear sibilant etc before break in.

[@ThomasAndStereo]

Yup, that is something I listen for too.

[@phonebackup8132]

After 45 years of building, refurbishing, reconing and speaker designing I can say without a doubt some drivers will "break in" while others seem to not change much or at all. This includes a range of types. Hifi, studio, musical instrument and live sound plus. Some tube equipment and some solid state as well. It depends on the design.

[@toddhupp]

Upscale and other high end tube sellers do "break in " tubes pre sale.Tube gear seems to benefit sonic-ally from a warm up of 15 -20 minutes,Tubes are electron streaming devices. Accordingly they should be at optimal operating temperature for best results.Speakers are piston machines.A break in period likely maximizes/optimizes piston movement.

[@barryhoward7165]

Very interesting video Thomas and thank you for it. I have experienced break-in mostly with tubes but also with electronic circuits and ethernet cables. What I have come to believe is that there is a change mostly in my getting used to it.

[@nathanas64]

This is a thought provoking video! I think break in really does apply to tube amps. Tubes sound better with time. Last summer I bought a Reisong A10 and I am certain it sounds better now that I’ve used it almost daily. However, I bet one can test THD with new tubes and THD after break in. This would be a test I would be willing to try when work demands subside. Also, when building a solid state amp you need to bias the output transistors. This takes at least a few hours until things stabilize. So I guess you can consider this as a break in.

[@ChrisMag100]

I can't comment much on break-in, but I can confirm experiencing a long warm-up period with an R2R DAC. It sounded good "cold" but over the first day, it changed significantly as the manual stated it would. The OEM indicated the military-spec resistor-ladder DAC chips operated in a better manner when at operating temp and it appears they were correct.

[@reptidan]

Amazing video!

[@franktrgovich7911]

Great video. I agree with your thoughts on break in.

[@R1Zig]

Measurable or not! The difference is audible. I just got a IFI-Zen blue V2 yesterday. It sounded absolutely horrible at first. Two hours later I couldn't believe it was the same unit! I read on their website they recommend 1 week of 24 X 7 break-in time for optimum sound. Whether this is to stop people from prematurely sending it back or whatever I don't know. PS Audio for instance send all their equipment out with 48 hours of break-in time before it reaches the client. Why? They don't want the equipment returned because it doesn't sound good during the break-in/burn-in period. Paul himself said he cannot measure it but it is just how things work. Lovely video thanks Thomas!

[@08jamu]

I started liking your videos and style of delivering speech.

[@richardsaila8073]

"The universe does not care if you win in a logical debate". So true! 👍👏😂

[@latheofheaven]

Excellent and thought provoking as usual! 😊 The only clear experience that I have that I feel is pretty definitive is the Littlebear T11 all tube phono amp. I could tell a very significant difference in the sound after it had 'broken in' for a couple of weeks. It most certainly improved. Also, coincidentally, with my IFI Phono 2 amp. I also noticed quite an improvement after a couple of weeks of 'burn in' Both definitely improved in tonality, depth, and soundstage.

[@BadMonkeyFinger_Audio]

I found myself nodding my head in agreement with you at several points in this video. Good topic.

[@ThomasAndStereo]

Cool, thanks!

[@photohum]

Great video!

[@chaucer_m]

I recently built an Elekit TU-8900 with V-Cap CuTF capacitors and it was a rollercoaster ride before it hit 400 hours. It presented several different sound signatures during "break-in." There was a point when the sound changed completely in just a matter minutes (in between two tracks) and it kept me guessing "Is this going to be the final sound signature?" My wife was with me throughout the entire process and she also heard the differences. Break-in should not be "controversial" and should be a reason to start a fire on the internet. It's a personal preference. If you believe that it works, then go for it. If you don't, no problem. But respect should be applied for both parties. Music brought us all in one place. Why not just enjoy it and respect each other's point of view.

[@2ridiculous41]

I got the Elekit 8200 last year and it did something similar.

[@robk5745]

That 8600s kit is something I want to do, seems like a great piece for the audio cabinet!

[@vicg5323]

Awesome topic.

[@aceofspades6667]

I believe that break in burn and and warm up are all real and beneficial things. There is a nominal amount of the gear sound profile changing and a bunch of the users perception changing over time as well.

[@bikemike1118]

Yes, at least a decent warm up phase EVERYBODY should easily experience…as it takes way less time - only 30 to 60 minutes (!). A break in period sometimes can be longish…a major PAD power cable of mine - according to manufacturer - takes about 250 hours for FULL break-in time…Changes over those longer periods of time are a bit harder to detect. But if you really know your system it is definitely possible. I feel it is broken in since a while now and the sound really is overall a bit rounder, better defined and „matured“ in a positive way. But as I said…warmed up components sound WAY better than freshly plugged in!! And this is MUCH easier to experience!

[@lloydmetcalf2593]

Thomas. Enjoy your videos very much and you are the first reviewer I’ve heard who’s said something didn’t sound as good as before “break in”. This is what’s always bothered me about “break in”. As a graduate with a statistics degree I’m sure you realize it’s statistically impossible for everything to sound better after the break in period, yet that is all you hear in reviews or online discussions. I personally have never heard a noticeable difference in any of the gear I’ve listened to over the years and it’s nice to hear someone else say it’s not always for the better.

[@bikemike1118]

@@lloydmetcalf2593 …if you heard primarily not-so-resolving equipment it is (even) harder to detect. And I don’t see any connection with „statistics“…keep in mind that „science is only the current state of error“

[@markpenland]

Great post. I've heard it in some speakers, but never in electronics.

[@hugobloemers4425]

hello Thomas, I agree that this topic together with cables will get people wound up. And I would like to add my personal observations and opinion: First of all, I work in the semiconductor industry and manufacturing equipment needs to break in as well when it is new. So do cars by the way. Back to audio, my experience in the recent years is only vintage audio. I have seen that vintage amplifiers need to break in after storage time, or is it relocation? But the time was limited to a day or so. I have seen that on an Akai amp that seemed a big disappointment on day one but (literally) rocked from day two on. I have also restored a turntable and It also needed break in. The interesting thing with the turntable was that it was humming, so no vague complaints that could be written off by people saying I got used to it. After spending time trying to trouble shoot it, I decided to break it in and the hum went away by just using it. here I also agree with the observation that using it intermittently was working, i.e. the hum would gradually disappear with the passing days rather than the passing play time.

[@matthewbarrow3727]

One piece of equipment. that really surprised me regarding burn-in was the Lumin U1 digital streamer. This is pure digital output, so one would think that the sound would not change. I had read from various forums that it needed about 200 hours of break-in before sounding very good. The recommendation was to just play a very long playlist 24 hours a day for 2 weeks. I spent a couple of minutes listening every couple of days. I found the sound irritating during during the first week. It felt OK after a week, and felt very good after 2 weeks. I certainly wasn't getting used to the sound as I only listened for a couple of minutes.

[@daveycrockett5738]

I love when you make videos like this. I think another great video that you could humor us with is recently I was talking with someone on a Facebook home theater group and they said that different amps didn’t sound different in the aspect from one amp too another one doesn’t have a better soundstage or merger mid bass or so on and so forward. They basically all sound the same. I was shocked to hear someone say this that is actually very knowledgeable I’m the audio field. I for one started my audio journey watching reviews from you and many other people and only experience I have with testing this is the difference in sound with my a31 to my mrx720 anthem which I noticed differences from my short a/b test. So I’m on the the side of the fence thinking each amp sounds different for lack of a better description. Maybe you already made a video like this..

[@ThomasAndStereo]

No I did not make a video on it but I can understand why some people find it sound similar especially with AV. I have people told me that they bought 2 amps and they cannot hear a difference. I understand them and until they do hear a difference, nothing I say will make a difference to them.

[@daveycrockett5738]

@@ThomasAndStereo I think sometimes what people say can change there minds just like your break in video. I think a video about this would be great idea

[@kentwood2914]

Good points and finally some reasonable content on this topic. I was skeptical about break-in until I innocently experienced it with some new ALK Engineering crossovers in my Klipsch Forte IIs. After I installed them, I was so disappointed. I thought I had made a huge mistake with me noting several sound characteristics that were very very unappealing. After a period of playing all night, turning off, back on, listening for hours I noticed that the characteristics that were unappealing were replaced with "audiophile" quality sound. To say that I became used to the bloaty bass, shrill highs would be ludicrous...i would not change these speakers for any other speaker on earth! I am in audio "break-in" heaven.

[@Funkbutterfly]

This is a phenomenon for guitar amps too.

[@saedamad]

Good morning from Singapore Thomas... Thank you..😎

[@giot1302]

Awesome topic!George from Greece!

[@chutgowdingo-loon3212]

Yes - all of my headphones and IEMs have gained some level of improvemnet, after being broken in for about 80 hours. Some were minor, others were fairly significant. Only the electrostatics cans showed no change with break-in - they needed an earpad change, which improved the bass.

[@GH-zs8eq]

For me its not a grey area, all audio gear needs to break in! Speakers, amp, dac, cables etc! Only difference is the amount of time each gear needs, and how much different they sound before/after. For most things like my speaker and dac - a world of difference! The difference between wanting to sell them vs loving them +++++!

[@nolankrueger9479]

LOVE YOUR CHANNEL

[@firedragon1876]

recently purchased a Chinese Nobsound 6p1 tube amplifier because I wanted to hear tube amp sound for the first time. After roughly 40hrs of burning in the tubes the sound is amazing with my Klipsch RP 600m and a Yamaha sw315 subwoofer. It gave the Klipsch bigger soundstage, clarity and warmth . Just wanted to try the sound but for now it will replace my Cambridge axr100.

[@drewabe1410]

Changed all the caps and resistors in my tube amp. Bass was immediately deeper but quantity was down. Not much bass, treble was harsh. After 100 hours via Roon tracking the hours per day, the treble is smooth, bass deeper and overall just better.

[@Audiofreak71]

Yes most definitely 👍

[@justadad2304]

Break-in is real and happens across all components (yes, including cables!). Different technology types, different manufacturers (who do different amounts of product testing/factory burn-in before shipping), and other ways of distinguishing any sample A from any other sample B DO matter to the rate and degree to which it has impact... but it is there. Also, I have likewise had the experience of liking products more before break-in and less after (though, usually, it is the reverse). I remember working in a hifi store, receiving a new pair of speakers for which I had low expectations, plugging them in, and thinking, WOW, these speakers have everything! Days later of living with now truly high expectations and enthusiasm (meaning, days of coming and going to work at the shop, plugging in other speakers for customer demos, and plugging these back in, swapping out other components and then going back to square one, etc., in other words days of marginalizing, if not negating, both placebo and nocebo effects) the new reaction was, WOW, these speakers are SO BORING! =D

[@e-portfix]

I have not heard much break in at all, most of my equipment is used and didn't change sound after i started using it. I purchased a new Quad preamp this year, brand new, and it sounded wonderful out of the box. My speakers mellowed a slight bit as the new capacitors i replaced in the xovers broke in, pretty subtle though.

[@stevenholt5484]

Thank you Thomas, most excellent discussion per usual. I can only add this : if you decide to break in a piece of gear, make sure that gear is good to begin with. Take the Bose 901's. You can break those damn things in for 5000 hours, and they're still not gonna sound good. My personal opinion is, good gear may benefit from break - in, great gear should sound perfect right out of the box. As the great Casey Stengel once said, 'You got your racehorses and you got your mules, and you can kick a mule in the ass all you want and you're not gonna make him a racehorse!'

[@alvenhchanne]

I have never noticed a difference with break-in until I bought a WWII vintage Hallicrafters S-36A VHF communications receiver (27-144 MHz). I hooked up hi-fi speakers to the receiver, and after playing a local radio station for several hours, I noticed a significant change in sound with the audio sounding smoother.

[@costas3953]

Excellent overview on this topic. The scientific approach always triumphs. Break-in makes intuitive sense for mechanical components with moving parts (eg. speakers). For other components and cables - it is questionable. How much can be attributed to our senses becoming used to a certain sound characteristic vs break-in is a question we could probably never answer as human beings are not robots nor are all consistent. Our hearing and perceptions are all unique. Sometimes a component can even sound "perceptively" different on a day to day basis depending on our frame of mind. in summary, don't sweat it - just enjoy the music rather than the gear itself.

[@2ridiculous41]

Equally a refusal to accept burn in might be described as bias. Do I care if others say it makes no difference? No, if there are things they can't hear, how would I convince them that their ears are not any use?

[@erics.4113]

Part of the question that references "getting used to a sound signature" has been addressed scientifically in my opinion. It's related to the idea that when we spend time with a particular person, their voicing becomes more recognizable to us. We can pick them out even if the voice is muddled (say over a low quality signal like an old telephone) . I think this could relate to our systems. The more time we spend with it, there are certain aspects to its voicing that we become accustomed and respond to. This could all be true, or not. Lol just my conjecture and intuition i offer no data 😆

[@haberdasherrykr8886]

@@erics.4113 Can this be akin to a phenomena where tourists can't discern a local person's accent but other locals can Since we become accustomed to something might mean we can hear an improvement? Note the local is taking as he has ever talked before

[@erics.4113]

@@haberdasherrykr8886 I think that's related to what I was thinking about. The idea that our ears (really our brains) can be "tuned" by repeated exposure. So while the non local person is only hearing the overall sounds, the locals are hearing and picking out specific subtle details in the way the sounds are produced. If you don't understand that native language in the first place, it would be difficult if not impossible for you to discern subtle differences like the local could. So if this were your system, you may first pick a demo track and learn it as many audiophiles do. We tune our brains to how that particular song sounds, not just words and instruments playing. We know a pluck of a guitar or a breath before a singing passage. And when we move to other equipment, we can now be aware of how those same sounds are portrayed. When you put in brand new gear, the total number of changes may be too much to.process all at once. The overall tone may change, the presentation of the frequencies, the attack, the decay, the brightness or relative darkness. So many variables could change all at once. And until you've spent time "burning in" you will probably find more is revealed the longer you listen. So.... to say that the equipment has changed is difficult. Because how aware of all the nuances could you really be when you first listen to a system? I'm sure there are people that get good at doing so, but is it more likely that the equipment changed drastically, or did your brain change and bend around the equipment?

[@haberdasherrykr8886]

@@erics.4113 This all is compounded by the fact synergy for the new gear has not been achieved right away with accompanying dacs and amps and preamps and whatnot Also i was assuming the locals and the tourist were speaking the same language just not the same accents/vernaculars/dialects Such as jive/irish/scottish/philly people coming together. Plus there's more factors to consider such as the differences b/w more gear of the same brand (Apple has repeatedly said and shown that each iPhone of the same sub type is different) because of machine limitations and calibrations; plus in audiophile industry there's additional inspector who checks each unit's sound reproduction ability..so each unit can vary The "tuning" example you posed is interesting and seems fitting, guess we need samples and testing to confirm what we think fits or not now

[@thepickyaudiophile]

I used to be in music and on one tour I had to play keyboard bass. So I borrowed a tall Ampeg bass stack from a bass player friend and punished it with sub terranian synth bass for a month 🔊The owner never stopped talking about how much that month of abuse changed its sound for the better 😄

[@keresztnevemvezeteknevem5395]

Thank You! It's a great video once again. I think break-in is a real but complex phenomenon. Besides facts you mentioned, I would emphasize two other features of break-in process. First, it has some kind of cycling nature. E.g. First day the sytem with a new equipment has great bass, and weaker other features, next day it has better treble, and next day it has ballanced, open stereo image, and finally it has a boring, dull sound. And next the whole starts again in a different level, and with different cycle-time, and it's repeating over, and over again, i think it lasts for about 2 months usually with on a detectable level. Then the cycles remain, but less smaller amplitude. Next thing its complexity. A simple wire, like an interconnect or a loudspeaker cable is really complex thing? No, I don't think so. But sometimes it has a complex effect on the sound! Why? How come!? Because it connects very complex equipmnets, with full of network of electrical parts, which are really not a direct current aplifier (voltage/ampere) at all! No, these equippmnets are for amplify the amplitudo of very complex wave signals, and make them convert to sound. All my respect to Electrical Engineers, but some say its just current, and nothing more ore less. Its true, but its going through this complex networks from a single CD, till the membrane of the loudspeker, and the equipments are full off coils, and capatitors, and all has a filtering, and phase shifting effect on the current waves. Its a real miracle, that there is any sound at all in the end of the chain! And back to your cable, when you change any part of this chain, only this very simple part like a cable, with its slightly changing resistance, capatitive, and impedance attributes, do you really think, that this will not change the characteristics of the whole seriously resonating network, its, complex filtering, and phase shifting effect? No, Idont think so. :)

[@13thnotehifireviews7]

Definitively exists but speakers massively more than anything else because of the big mechanical acoustic connection. I found this when I bought a pair of speakers that a courier damaged and I took them home waiting for new pair , and the new pair was a flatter sound with the others run in. I agree with you, the r2r ladder Dacs sound better when you leave them on but others I can’t tell .

[@ThomasAndStereo]

That is great is you have 2 sets of speaker to compare.

[@eruilluvitar]

I don't believe in break-in unless it's your own property or it's to save someone else's life/property. For example, if you lock yourself out of your house, it's okay to break in. Same goes if your apartment catches fire and you know your neighbor isn't home but has pets - break in is okay then. Apart from that, don't break in to things.

[@rlink204]

This is the real discussion to be had here.

[@erics.4113]

Also ok is breakin (dancing) and breaks in beats. Otherwise we'd have no break beats. Also bears eat beets

[@eruilluvitar]

@@erics.4113 Agreed. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

[@Langeloudspeakers]

There are some aspects that have a measurable impact in loudspeaker performance. Loudspeaker drivers have moving parts and those parts are mostly glued together. Spider to coil and coil to diaphragm adhesion are critical areas that have a measurable impact on Thiele Small parameters, in particular Fs (resonance frequency); if the driver is moved to full excursion then we can assume that the definitive or lowest resonance frequency has been reached; reason resides in the adhesion area that becomes a bit smaller once the cone excursion reaches the limit (adhesives partially break away from spider and coil allowing a slightly but measurable Fs drop). Coil to Cone adhesion in most speaker drivers is granted by Epoxy Adhesives and those adhesives have the tendency to cure quickly up to 75%/90% in one day. During the first month or so a loudspeaker may becomes a bit more efficient in the high frequency domain due to Epoxy Adhesive aging (the stiffer the adhesion between coil support and diaphragm, the more HF energy is translated to the cone). Outer suspension of a driver is also glued and prone to get a bit looser if the speaker reaches full excursion...the same phenomenon affects midranges and also tweeters.

[@jesuscostantino2925]

I have no strong opinions about break-in, but I do have enormous respect for your continued good humor and healthy distance from ridiculous debates.

[@Raczoon]

My favorite audiophile. He's always talking about "udders"! :-)

[@RealHIFIHelp]

That's also what I keep saying. Plus throttling the volume in short periods helps speed up the process, plus using white/pink/black/deep brown noise helps a huge deal. If you just do it in a normal way, then time plays tricks on your mind + other changes interferes with the results. Making you forget the many stages of the burn in process. This topic is also closely related to a/b testing/blind testing which also is done wrong many times, also interfering with the break-in impressions.

[@RJ_Chicago]

Great video Thomas. I personally don’t have enough experience to have an opinion about break in. However, I think the premise that some audio components or speakers benefit from breakin, on a case by case basis, is reasonable. Btw, my son graduated from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, with a degree in Statistics. I’m a very proud Dad. Go Blue!

[@karlssr]

I have an pro-ject class d power amp (ds2) and havent noticed a big difference in it. But my Yamaha intigrated wxa-50 did break in. Ive also noticed the same in in speakers. My triangle br03 broke in less than my canton chrono 570 or sf chameleon b. My two canton subs broke in alot, different models but gained alot more grip and control after 100 ish h of normal use.

[@Frequincy100]

I love these kinds of videos. I don’t have near enough experience as an audiophile to say yes or no. I have a feeling I wouldn’t be able to tell even if it was a thing. From my mechanical engineering background I know mechanical things change over time so I’m positive speakers change over time. The question is is that change perceived by the human ear. Science has more important things to figure out so I’m good with it not being answered yet.

[@macolive65]

I have a BAT Vk-75 for many years..it did change after a few months…and i enjoyed the amp. As it got older, i got to thinking about improving the sound and changed the capacitors. After changing the caps, it sounded boring…i just went on about my ways and I forgot all about it….one evening, i turned the amp on and listened. I was shocked about how nice the sound was. I was wondering what changed, i had completely forgotten about the caps that i had changed.

[@yvesboutin5604]

I remember when I bought my new amplifier, the sound changed after 10 hours of break-in. Regarding the PCM loudspeakers, they use a very complex crossover design and I believe the electrical components need a few hours to fully regulate the current flow passing through them. That is my theory about the subject.

[@Staybrown11]

Another great video. KLH model 5 took 10 hours to sound like a speaker. Then it took another 40hrs for them to sound amazing. 3 weeks ago I changed DACs. Then, about 3 days ago, suddenly it just sounded phenomenal. It all came together. After months of moving the speakers around, and changing DACs…did my new Ares 2 DAC break-in? Or was it the Yamaha? Or maybe the speakers finally broke in after months of playtime. I don’t know but what I can say is that in my system I did hear changes. And they were good changes.

[@ronkindel9734]

I noticed a improvement in sound with my Schiit Freya + after using it for a considerable amount of time. In my case that was months of daily use. I’m sure any reasonable person would say that it wasn’t the actual component breaking in but the tubes. But no. I think I can confidently say that this is not the case as I prefer the Freya + in passive mode and listen that way almost exclusively.

[@ticklefish4898]

For me, speakers, as electro-mechanical devices, breaking-ins, makes perfect sense both theoretically, rubber surrounds needing stretching to get to a ‘steady state’ compliance level, etc., and practically, I’ve heard multiple sets of speakers sounding better, smoother & less hash, etc., after few months of playing (breakin period to get to their ‘steady state’) For tube devices, running tubes long enough getting tubes to a ‘steady state’ (breakin period) also makes sense to me. For SS devices, I’m not so sure about the need for breakins except perhaps for capacitors which I suspect do change over time. Adding to the confusions (& controversies) is not all manufacturers design their gears to the ‘steady states’ (to me that’s what ‘breaking in’ is about) so end users experiences differing results. And argue whether ‘breaking in’ is a thing... or not! And, based on their own experiences, are absolutely certain that they are correct. And the arguing continues...

[@berndkalweit6856]

Hi ì bought a pair of focal 826 speakers and after about 6 weeks òf approximate use of 50 hours a week the bass became noticeably deeper with more punch I hope the same happens with my new KLH model 5 I enjoy your videos thanks from the land down under

[@bobb.9917]

As soon as I understood the topic…my thoughts were as yours. It's common sense. Some units may benefit from break-in…some may not. I had come to that conclusion well before this video. Also, it could apply to any category, i.e. amps, speakers, tubes, DACs, etc. I personally believe that speakers would be MORE likely to benefit from break-in than other audio categories. I do believe this. I also know….that I personally would never notice this difference unless it was an extreme case. 😬…so…I am lucky…I can just forget about that 💩….and enjoy the music! 😀

[@sylviegauthier35]

Je partage votre opinion et j’aime bien votre point de vue nuancé. Merci pour toutes ces précieuses informations.

[@ThomasAndStereo]

Merci.

[@homerjones3291]

I had no feelings one way or the other about equipment break-in; I do remember that it’s suggested that with cars, the engine has a break-in period where the pistons/rings settle into an initial wear pattern after a couple hundred (?) miles or so, and about 50 miles with new tires. Anyway, I wasn’t expecting a noticeable difference in any of my stereo components, but I have noticed changes in how speakers and phono cartridges sound after an indeterminant number of hours of use. I haven’t experienced this with the other components.

[@bobbolles8028]

Very interesting. Here is what I think. I just received the Reisong A10 amp and replaced all the tubes with quality ones, like we’re supposed to. I think the burn-in is a result of heat cycles, not run time. So, I am turning on, letting the tubes warm up, playing for 1/2 hour or so, and then turning off and letting the amp cool down completely until the next turn-on, and repeating. If I am right, the time till “sounds great” will be much shorter. Please let me know your thoughts.

[@budgetaudiophilelife-long5461]

🤗😎WATCHING AGAIN THOMAS 😁👏👏👏💚💚💚

[@backrack01]

I have very little experience with break in. But I'm happy you touched on the matter of, are you breaking it in by just having it turned on or do you need to play music through it? I assumed music needed to play through a DAC or amplifier for the break in to happen but never found someone's opinion on it. Until now :)

[@rctony710]

Yes break in is real. Especially a crossover it takes a long time. Subwoofers as well oviously the glue the foam. As for a subwoofer if ever you rebuild one and see how it is made and how it works you will obviously know there's a break in. Ask any speaker builder and he'll tell you it's real.

[@Labor_Jones]

wow... i freaked and thought something else in that title you used. heck... i ran away so freaked out that it took me all day to come back luck... fortunately i thought too quickly and now understand... whew!

[@marc-andregagne6826]

I just bought new speakers for my office. Yesterday they were initially meh but after listening all day, I don’t quite remember why they were meh yesterday. By the time the XX possible break in hours are elapsed, I will have completely forgotten. So maybe, maybe not. For sure give XX amount of hours to see if your taste changes! Thanks Thomas

[@Jundaku]

I've seen the gamut with break in. Some things I have didn't need break in at all, they sounded the same day 1 as they did a year latter. Other items I've seen major changes with. I had a pair of La Scalas with rebuilt crossovers. The crossovers themselves sounded unbearably harsh but after about 70 hours they become smooth and great sounding. My mc275s constantly change their sound as the tubes get older. I have a Simaudio Moon 280d streamer that simaudio said in the manual needs 300-400 hours of break-in and they were 100% correct as the sound changed dramatically over those 300 hours. I've seen, side by side a new mc462 and a broken in one and they sound nothing like each other at first but after 100 hours they sounded the same.

[@djfirestormx]

Both are right. With a moving part like the surround structure of a woofer, depending on what they used it does need to loosen up. Sometimes resisters and capacitors need to heat up to "seal" or "burn off" things like flux that in theory could alter the sound...but its only slight and that usually only takes 10 minuets after its first power on (maybe an hour if they used too much). This is of course assuming its a quality piece of electronics. Most break in usually is our ears adjusting to the new sound and becoming familiar with it. Now that being said I have heard electronics taking 2 or 3 days to smoothed out some sharp tones, but rather than saying break in is a thing that is needed, I question the quality of the assembly and parts used. So yes some parts do break in SLIGHTLY and other issues are borderline quality control, and the 3rd, we simply adjust to the way it sounds. That's my 2 cents

[@adaboy4z]

I bought a pair of KZ-ZS10 Pro IEM and out of the box the treble was harsh after a few days of listening it went away. So I believe some products need time to break in like your favorite pair of shoes!

[@beornthebear.8220]

I can understand where some speakers would soften their spiders and cone surrounds after a period. I've never noticed it, but I'm either listening at a relatively low level at home, and I pump large waves out with my bass guitar amp speakers. With my headphones (which I am very picky about), I liked the sound a lot when I got them, and I still do after several years. One headphone review showed no difference in frequency response before or after break in (with one model of headphone). But again, we don't listen to statistics, what one person likes another may not. Also, can I truly remember how they sounded when I first bought them? No, I can't say that I can. I'm just glad I liked them when I got them, and I still like them just as much.

[@miharoskar]

I firmly believe in speaker break-in due to experience I had with most speakers., but didn't consider amplifier break-in as significant. Not until I got my Sansui amp fully recapped with Elna Silmic II caps. At first it sounded ok, but not as good as originally, then after 2 hours soundstage collapsed and it sounded almost like listening to mono music. Sounded distorted also. Between 5-20 hours it sounded very, very bright, after that it got only better and sound stabilized slowly till around 100 hours. I also gradually modified crossovers in some of my speakers and it often takes few hours to settle. Some components need more, some less time. They usually become less harsh, more dynamic and composed. Becouse of that I'm a firm believer new speakers need break-in, not only becouse the spider and drivers need to settle but also crossover components. Haven't yet experienced cable break-in though. Let me also say critical listening is my proffession - I'm a conductor and musician and I consider myself as having a very good ear and sound memory.