Let's Balance this LiFePO4 Battery

[@saidt.8200]

Excellent tutorial. Even if balanced top or bottom, sooner after operation they’ll become unbalanced because the culprit is the internal resistance of these 4 cells are not the same.

[@SailingSisu]

Great demonstration, Clarke! I appreciate how you explain things in a way that us common folks can easily understand. It's amazing to see the progress you're making with these batteries. Keep up the great work!

[@foowb]

Great video! One thing this made me think of is how to convey the danger of shorting a lithium battery. One of the challenges is that "a lot of energy" is an abstract term for which most people dont have an intuition, especially with something that is low voltage and you can touch live contacts with your hand. So the way i once explained it to someone is like this: There is 200 Ah in a big battery at 12 V (for the sake of round numbers). Thats 2400 Wh, which is enough power to run a 3.5 hp outboard for about an hour. That would be a good amount of gas. Now imagine taking a half can of gas, spilling it on the floor and lighting a match. It doesnt work exactly this way of course but it's in the same ballpark and people understand gasoline going boom 🙂

[@bobuncle8704]

Excellent demo Clarke. I’m getting so much out of this battery series. Thank you. Happy New Year to you and Emily.

[@japc4326]

While I found your explanation to be simple and spot on, I, me, just me, think for a cruiser boater these batteries are too finicky. The charging and issues you can have been a problem many boaters are having with these batteries. Yes, they are much more efficient, lighter, take up less space and in theory last longer than an acid battery but how many boaters want to take apart their battery and carry spare parts for it at an unknown anchorage. The cost and availability are also an unknown while away from your home port. Thanks John

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Absolutely valid point, John. I was late to the li party for much the same reasons. But once I got some I realized the game changing potential these have. I developed the BankManager to solve a lot of the issues but this balance thing needs to be addressed. I'm going to make a video soon about how to check out new drop in batteries and when to send them back. Once you have a good balanced pack and, of course, use a BankManager. These are basically hassle free. But lead works. And we are all captains of our own ships. I sailed over 30 years with lead.

[@japc4326]

Yes, a good BMS with built in balancing is the key! @@Clarks-Adventure

[@bitsurfr46]

I think it should be the manufacturers responsibility to see that the cells in their batteries are balanced before they leave the factory. Right now, they are too players in this market. I expect that the industry will consolidate in the next 12 to 24 months.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yep I'm going to start a campaign that I hope will improve things. But it has to show profit for them as well. Doing a full charge test with top balance numbers is the only way. I'm hoping they can create a certificate of that test as a sales tool. So first thing is I need to educate the buyers to demand this. What to help? Share these videos. Maybe links to the leader board or our battery playlist.

[@anthonyrstrawbridge]

Clark's great adventure was navigating up the channel through four locks, 4-3-2-1, Sitting and waiting at the lowest resistance fully flooded lock gate it was obvious that all three upper locks had high resistance and couldn't be shut. Clark got through by dumping the lower lock and navigating the remaining three locks as they stabilized. Notably the three stuck gates weren't actually broken. Now that all four locks function perfectly you realize that none of them were broken or in need of replacement as the complaining Man was proclaiming. The four cells now perform for longer with much more energy than anything else reasonably available regardless of mass or dimension. ✌🏿👶🏾🚬

[@SalingSamantas]

I love it Clark. Sadly if been very busy lately and have missed some of your videos. I need to go back and binge watch all of them and absorb and much as my brain can hold. thank you for talking to us common people in a way we can easily understand Lol.

[@marklapierre5629]

Cases can be rebuilt too. Thanks for the show, and the education.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I just bought a pelican type waterproof box and a good bms to make this cell pack into a portable battery.

[@CJSHM]

Fantastic video as always. I tried to salvage a faulty Renogy unit by buying some cheap 26650 cells and welding them into a bank to replace the boatload of dead cells in bank #1. They are unfortunately not quite of the same quality as the Renogy-installed cells, so i dont quite get the Ah expected out of the battery. Whatever. It was a warranty writeoff and an experiment. Your videos have been really informative and I'm looking forward to seitching over from AGMs to LiFePo4 in the next year... I suspect it'll not only increase my battery capacity but also eliminate the list my boat has from having 200 pounds of lead out to starboard.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Thanks, Are you planning on using a BankManager? www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms

[@herberthahn6964]

Hey Clark, You just never seem to disappoint. Starting the new year with a high bar. Wishing you and Emily a grea year.

[@jonathanwetherell3609]

Always time to learn. New tech just needs new learning.

[@californiakayaker]

I had to do this to a battery that had no bms at all. It ran fine for quite a while and being checked every other day, and then all , kind of quickly, it went out of balance. I used big 12v light bulbs taking fairly high current to get things back where they should be and put a passive balance on it. Its been fine ever since. I do have an active balancer and am looking forward to your explanation of how they work , and I hope its really as technical as possible. Thanks, N6GRG

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Next week's video will be about that little active balancer. It's a good piece of kit.

[@uhjyuff2095]

@@Clarks-Adventure I find that active balancer you showed is not great. The ones with the capacitors are much better at active balancing. The Daly smart active balancer works amazing too!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

@uhjyuff2095 please define "not great" and "garbage". What's the failure mode? Saying it doesn't make it so.

[@uhjyuff2095]

@@Clarks-Adventure as you know, balancing a lithium battery requires precision and that active balancer you showed is not precise. Like I said, the capacitor style active balancers are great with excellent precision.

[@kaiaudio4581]

watching from Malaysia! Love every content on your videos, especially the technical one! Thank you for sharing your knowledge Sensei! 😊

[@johnsuchsland8367]

I'm thinking the internal resistance on the cells are to far apart. If so the imbalance is going to keep coming back. An I.R. meter is a good tool to have for this test. Also if you could get a clamp meter on the balance leads while charging the pack you could see if the bms is trottling the high cell.

[@gavin1443]

thanks for all you do!

[@brucekrisko4364]

Thanks Clarke, for showing everyone that these batteries all have this problem, but why haven't these battery mfg.'s figured this problem out? I knew 2 years ago that you need an active balancer with at least one Amp capacity for a 100 Amp battery.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Because they have the customers as their testing department. You get what you pay for I guess. I'm going to get some more VoltGo batteries. The one I have is great and I've negotiated a DEEP discount that will make them like $ .29/wattHour. And gree shipping. The discount might work now with the link in our leader board but will surely be set up when I do the next VoltGo review. I'm hoping to get Victron to kick in some Cerbo gear. I'll do a review and have the voltgo talk to it.

[@gorally2003]

I solder rc balance leads so I can use my rc balance charge to take the guess work out of it. It takes a while but gets the cells within.01v I have another lifepo4 battery I am going to do the same too before I get into issues and plus with a balance battery tester I can watch the cell on high amp draw

[@lenwhatever4187]

Just thinking here. It is true that internally the BMS uses a similar method of balancing (and failing in this case). But once you have the battery open, using a resister for balancing in this manner seems to mean using more time. This is because the resister pulls the voltage into the more linear portion of the charge curve making it more difficult to sense when the cells are equally charged and meaning that further adjustments are more likely to be needed. It would seem to me that since the highest battery is fully charged bringing each of the low batteries up to fully charged would mean a single adjustment rather than multiple adjustments. In fact, in this particular case the low three cells could be charged at once because the high cell is on the end and so the three low cells are in series though as it ended up, one of the three low cells was still significantly higher than the other two. Of course, it is much more likely that someone will have a resister hanging around, or at least cheaper to purchase anywhere in the world, than a bench power supply. Perhaps that is the reason you chose this method, though it did seem that you hinted that if one was low, you would have charged it instead. Anyway, great video. As always, I have learned new things.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Second paragraph exactly. And who's to say I didn't do a bit of single cell charging when the cameras were off... I tried to give a method erroring on fool proof over quick. Charging a single cell without a BMS can go real bad real fast. Resistors are safe.

[@uhjyuff2095]

@@Clarks-Adventure I think if one is to open the case and want to manual balance the pack it would be full proof to attach a lithium ion charger with balancing function like the ones for drones and RC cars. plug it in, set the parameter on the charger and let it do its thing!

[@haraldschioberg1121]

Thanks! Now I hope to see a video with the manufacturer's response. Makes me wonder: how many of these built in BMS actually contain no functioning balancing circuit. Sticking a clamp amp meter on the balancing leads should be insightful.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

You won't hear a response likely. When I complained they said it's performing as expected. Basically "shut up". Guess they didn't know who they were talking to. I nearly did a bad review that instant. Also their BMS has issues. I'm simply throwing it away.

[@uhjyuff2095]

If you really want to confirm cell balancing on the bms you need to attach a volt meter to the tiny resistors that are for the cell balancing circuit. If you measure a voltage across the resistor then it is active and working.

[@saidt.8200]

An active balancer of 5A or more that transfers the amps rather than dissipating them in heat would help. But still this is just applying a band aid. The cells that go in a pack should be tested for their individual internal resistance and mix those with very close IRs only

[@roughas100]

Just the video i was looking for Clark, started using an older ( bought new in 2017 or 2018 ) 40ah LifePo4 battery again, probably been 2 years sihce i used it, had very good capacity back then, now the bms is doing strange things, voltage climbs slowly ( normally) till about 13.7v then it suddenly shoots up to about 18v then 20v , then disconnects , the charger then shows a connection fault . Imagine one cell is overcharging like your battery , unfortunately no Bluetooth bms so its just a guess till its cut open !

[@davethemmp]

Nice work Clarke, I have tried some active balance boards that claim 10A capabilities and still smoked them, when the cells were very close to balance? Keep up the great videos DavetheMMP. From 🇨🇦

[@Building_Bluebird]

Thanks E&C! good tips.

[@lonnieschreiner5879]

Thank you for a well done informative video.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

You're very welcome

[@Sylvan_dB]

The active balancer is a good choice. Without balancing it is very unlikely to ever give good service. Does the active balancer activate only at higher cell voltages or is it one that is always trying to balance? I prefer the former. Always balancing seems to be a disadvantage (has caused problems for me) if you are ever charging or discharging faster than the balancer can balance.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

It balances when the cells are off by enough to activate it. So generally it only balances at full and at empty. I wish it wouldn't balance below, say, 3.3v

[@BrianStDenis-pj1tq]

Clark, great demo. I'm thinking that a basic LiFe battery should have a BMS and the BMS should have either passive or active balancer. I say should because the cost of adding the components are so low. Regarding this battery, I think you said it did have a balance feature (passive I assume). Did you find it to be inoperable? And, if so, is it because there really wasn't a balance capability or what? Thanks!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

It was screwed up in many ways. The BMS was a dumpster fire. I threw it away and I'll be using the cells in a battery build soon. A waterproof battery in a pelican box.

[@TheGolopablo]

Clark...in case you put fire to your battery...how could it be put out? Cover it with a wet cloth? What would be the best procedure to put out a fire with a lithium bank in a boat? Thank you

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Throw it in the ocean! Look at my Elefast review. I almost did. If the cells go into thermal runaway, whisc is nearly impossible for LiFePO4, it has its own oxidizer so there is no real way to extinguish it Just let it run its course and cool the surrounding fuels with water I guess. It's basically a slow explosion!

[@neilfromclearwaterfl81]

@@junkerzn7312 Cobra Fire Systems has proven that you can fully extinguish even a full size ternary lithium EV battery that has gone into thermal runaway with under 64 gallons of water in minutes. They use a piercing nozzle that floods the cells with plain water and then its all over. It would be nice if they would standardize the vent they use on the 12 volt battery cases to allow for similar without actually requiring a special nozzle that pierces and seals to the case before forcing plain water in under pressure. Of course after this is done every cell in the pack will be dead beyond and beyond salvage however so would a battery that goes runaway and burns up or one thrown overboard. Anyways Lithium Fires can now easily be put out in short time using the correct nozzle and plain water. Now the trick is to raise awareness along with access to the nozzles for at least our Fire Houses. Best!

[@johnnylightning1491]

Clark, where are you getting your electrical/electronic components now that Radio Shack is gone. Is it Amazon or somewhere else? I enjoyed the video but I'll likely never do this procedure. I'll take your advice and just return the battery.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Amazon and eBay. We have to then courier it into the DR. Wish there was an electronics store here.

[@Sylvan_dB]

If the 3 lower cells are adjacent (i.e. cells 0, 1, 2 or 1, 2, 3) then you can set your power supply for a lower voltage and charge just those three in series - watching closely to avoid taking any too high as this can bypass the BMS,.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yep. But I wanted to teach it one way. Discharge alone is slower but safe and only one action makes it easier to learn from a video. When the cameras were off I used both discharge and individual cell charging to find a level state.

[@brezentski]

What do you use for a regulated power supply. Interested in buying one.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I use something similar to this. No communication and mine only goes to 30v amzn.to/3VOcU6b

[@michaelhess4825]

It's a PowerUrus selling for $380 it looks like. I really respect the idea of not immediately throwing the company under the bus, but at this point, with so many terrible "companies" selling these, and other products, i think they all need to be called out immediately. No mercy, no slack given, or the problem will forever continue!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

This is the one with a heater and all. More like $500 I think. Yep that's it.

[@leondavibe]

could skip the cutting of the case , most cases the bms is at the top accesible , the balance wires already go there just unplugging it gives you an access point to measure the cell voltages and also a wire to apply charge at a low rate though if you have a bench power supply you could simply charge each sell to hit 3.65 and then tap into those wires to connect the active balancer (if thick enough naturally), or from the get go tap the active balancer and then keep the battery just before shurdown voltage, as higher voltage difference normally means more balance current, so lifting it as needed to have one or more cells peaking

[@northernoutdoors9966]

Hey Clark (or maybe someone else can answer) I am waiting on my 12v battery to get here (I purchased it based off one of your videos) How do you charge your batteries with your power supply? I have a basic power supply that I can only select voltage with and it puts out a constant 20A. just curious how you charge to see if this will work for me or if I need to buy a new charger next time they go on sale. Thanks in advanced!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Can you infinity select voltage (dial) or just 12v, 24 ...? If you can select a voltage it will taper the amps to keep your selection. So you can use it to charge slowly. It all comes down to what you are trying to do with it. If you are just charging up the battery it will work fine. If you want to balance cells it might be handy to do that with lower voltage and amps. I routinely use something like you have through a BankManager to charge up Li that arrives here. Just hook up the contactor like normal with the charger on the lead side. It works fine as long as your charger doesn't go over 15v when the load is removed (easily tested with your meter)

[@northernoutdoors9966]

@@Clarks-Adventure it’s adjustable voltage 10-18v. The bank manager you make may be on next years list of things to get! Gotta afford our project one thing at a time right now! Thanks for the help.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Use your meter to adjust your charger to what you want (14.6?). Then charge the battery. You can test for balance and all. Don't do this every cycle. You can't charge li to a voltage safety. That's what the BankManager was made for. Until you get a BankManager id set the charge limit to about 13.8v

[@northernoutdoors9966]

@@Clarks-Adventure I plan on charging a little low to save the battery. It’s replacing a lead acid that died on us so regardless even charging to 80% will give us a longer run time. Thanks again for the help. I really appreciate it. Next year we want the bank manager so so we can charge while it’s still in the boat if it’s charging system.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Sure. I understand you have to do what works. There is an issue with charging to 80 percent repeatedly. You can create "memory". Now nothing works with li and voltage but the best you can do until you get your BankManager would be to vary the charging target voltage now and again. And a year of charging conservatively should be fine.

[@sailingeden9866]

I wish you would let us know about the bad batteries. That battery looks a lot like a CHINS battery that I have been thinking about buying from Amazon. It would be nice to know what not to waste money on.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

It's not Chins. It's actually a $500 battery. I thought about this a lot. One can tell by the label if it's a battery you are thinking of buying. I only covered the name not the rest of the art.

[@bitsurfr46]

Of all the batteries you reviewed, how often do you come across units that are out of balance?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Never this bad! And this batteries BMS has issues. The Redodo 410 seems to have actual bad cells. But the rest are kinda annoyingly out of balance, as long as the BMS can fix them it wouldn't be a problem. But I'd like to see manufacturers do just a bit more for their customers. I'm getting feedback from them, my videos seem to be taken seriously. We are now seeing smaller cases and hopefully my complaining will get attention to balanced, tested cells.

[@uhjyuff2095]

@@Clarks-Adventure Please define "actual bad cells."

[@Clarks-Adventure]

One set of cells can't absorb and supply the rated amp hours. I think it's in the video. Did you watch it?

[@uhjyuff2095]

@@Clarks-Adventure LOL, battery pulls 98 percent of rated and you call it "bad"

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes I do. Especially when that mis-balance throws off the top balance so badly. As delivered that battery will overstress that cell group and it will die an early death. Do you ever have a positive attitude? Do you just dislike me or are like this to everyone? Trolling isn't power, it's just rude.

[@tim1299]

I questioned the LiTime people about my new battery charging to 13.67 volts and they said that was fine and balanced. Now I am confused. I charged a 100-amp 12 volt mini at 14.4 volts.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

So to be clear the battery BMS shut the battery down at 13.67v during charging? If so that battery needs to be balanced or sent back. Is it getting better? Meaning is the BMS balancing it? Feel free to email me at [e-mail]. I'm very interested in this and their responses. I am about to review their battery and I mark on the company as you know. I'd like to know your story for the review

[@uhjyuff2095]

if your new LiTime battery is a 100ah model I suggest setting up a smart outlet to turn on the charger for 1 hour and then off for 10 hours and on for 1 hour and off for 10 hours and continue for a few days. You then can charge it and check if its charging up higher until you get to the magic 14.4-14.6 volts!

[@bitsurfr46]

While I appreciate your willingness to try new things and share them with us, as an owner of 2 LiFeP2O4 batteries on a boat, I don't think I would be interested in doing this. If there is a chip that automatically balances a battery, then I think that the manufacturer should install them prior to shipping. I would be willing to pay a premium for this.🎉

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I agree. Part of the reason for this video is to educate the buyers to demand balanced cells. I'm also working with the manufacturers. I have a video planned that will show easy tests to do on a new li battery. If it fails you return the battery with cause. If my plans work out batteries will be made much better in the near future. We shouldn't be their testing department!

[@bitsurfr46]

Right now, there is a great demand for LiFeP2O4 as people switch from lead acid. Just like PCs in the past, there won't be room for all the dozens of manufacturers offering LiFeP2O4 batteries today. I see a flight to quality and demand for the larger sizes in 12 to months.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

@bitsurfr46 yep. You will see mostly bigger batteries in my reviews.

[@allynonderdonk7577]

A lot of BMS modules only balance while charging. While balancing only like 50ma. So if the battery gets charged quickly there is very little balancing time at too weak a current. I've built several LifePo4 batteries and he JBD BMS systems are a constant thorn in my side presenting this same behavior. JK active balance BMS systems are the only way to go. I wish any off the shelf brands would use them, but apparently they cost a few dollars more.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes I've had experience with the JBD and tried discharging and charging slowly. No noticeable effect. This BMS was made by the battery company themselves. It has several issues. I'm throwing it away. I'll be building this cell pack into a waterproof pelican type case for portable use with a JBD and that active balancer. I wish I could shut the active balancer off at low POC so it doesn't unbalanced at the bottom but the battery spends very little time there.

[@scottkrebs586]

+1 for an active balancer install video. Will you be gluing this one back together to donate to a friend?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

No the BMS kinda sucks. Not a battery I'd sell to anyone. I bought a new BMS (similar to what's in the Elefast) and I'm going to do a battery build video using the cells. It will go in a pelican style case. Then I'll build a custom device based on BankManager hardware (probably never sell one) that will charge it off Temptress. Then once charged it will become part of Temptress' power storage bank automatically.

[@donbaggarlysr]

How do you tell if a battery is unbalanced if no Bluetooth?

[@Clarks-Adventure]

I wanted to do a video on this but there is no sure way and if I describe a way the battery manufacturers will modify their BMS software to mask the failing in a way that makes everyone loose. So as a public service I'm actually not doing a video. But in short you can be about 90 percent clear it's out of balance if you can't overcharge it to 14.6v without it shutting down. P S. Saturday's video will likely be very interesting to you.

[@hoosierdaddy3705]

I have built batteries for years and understand fully what your trying to do here, but i don't think this will work for this battery. It seems to me that the cell that is going up in volts too fast because it is of a lower capacity than the others and therefore charges faster. Get them all to the fully charged state discharge the battery and it will likely be the lowest voltage of the bunch. charge it all back up and if it does the same as it did from the start them it will show its a low capacity cell and nothing but replacing it will fix the problem. Although you could use the battery it will have less usable energy. The key to the building of a good battery i making sure the cells in it are of the same capacity or this happens.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yes I've seen this with the 410 Battleborn. I've thought of putting a small spiral cell in parallel with the weak cell. Thoughts? Time will tell on this pack. I haven't discharged it yet. When this happens I top balance and set the BankManager to stop discharge at 20 percent or so.

[@hoosierdaddy3705]

Adding a smaller cell wont work because its capacity and discharge rate are lower, It will likely get over discharged before the larger paralleled cell under a large load. I haven't tried that but that is what I believe may happen. @@Clarks-Adventure

[@a2022z2]

Would have been easier, safer to first charge until the BMS switched off and then charge the other 3 cells to the same voltage with the power supply.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

It's another way to do it. But not everyone has an appropriate charger Anyone can get a resistor.

[@Foxfried]

ECO-TURDY, the very first battery I ever got and it was grade B trash.

[@CitizenOfBabylon]

I have well over a hundred of those cells, I'll tell you for a fact, that cell is bad. It's capacity is 20 to 50 ah less than the others. This cell is the limit of the pack.

[@jec_ecart]

Lithium badly needs a good active balancer. Passive balancers are just useless and will invite problems sooner or later.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Yep

[@leeinwis]

No ones gonna go thru this .

[@jec_ecart]

Sir are you currently (or in the past) a pastor or some high ranking church figure ? You definitely sound like one.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

No.

[@leeinwis]

@@Clarks-Adventure "currently"

[@uhjyuff2095]

unfortunately, that little active balancer you have is garbage and the active balancers that do work are identified with the capacitor style active balancers.

[@Clarks-Adventure]

Well the "garbage" one is working fine.

[@bravofighter]

Ok, well, he’s an electronics engineer and an inventor with dozens of patents living an a classic sailing yacht with his lovely 30 year old wife who sings to him while strumming her guitar. How’s things going for you? See, he’s out there DOING it, with exactly the piece of equipment you, an internet troll, say doesn’t work…but it does, soooo…

[@bravofighter]

@@Clarks-Adventure😂 Get ‘em, Clark!!!

[@uhjyuff2095]

@@bravofighter you are acting like the active balancer device shown in this video is the only available one on the market. It is very easy to determine if the device works or not by doing a simple test. Top balance the pack manually and then discharge one or two cells to make the pack "out of balance" and then see how well your active balancer works!

[@Clarks-Adventure]

That's the subject of next week's video. Spoiler: it worked great!