Let's settle this - The definitive controller tier list

[@jmcrofts]

decent vid but some pretty notable omissions, for example the ps4 steering wheel, guitar hero guitar, and the potemkin pizza box battlestation (with tom cruise top gun flip-guard SOCD activator switch)

[@ToxicSunday]

P

[@SadToffee]

Racing Wheel S-Tier, every other controller F-Tier.

[@battlericky17]

Video over

[@G0Crazy1]

way to spoil it

[@notthatplease]

Jokes aside, how do you beat someone on a racing wheel? What are you going to do when the Blanka player pulls the hand break at round start?

[@prachetasnayse9709]

I know it’s a meme, but imagine someone playing with the wheel and giving you a run for your money xD

[@sanicboi9187]

@@notthatplease I think I remember nephew played ranked with a steering wheel a while ago.

[@Eliott-K]

My main reason for switching to Arcade stick back in the day was that using pad caused me a ton of wrist pain. Moving the motion to larger muscle groups (whole arm vs. thumb/wrist) allows me to play for hours on end day after day pain free, which is the only real thing that matters to me :)

[@kamachuno]

I started playing fgs with arcade sticks too. But i cant do dp lmao

[@hugopacheco3575]

I played Tekken with PS4 pad but I used too much force and wrecked them. I bought an arcade stick because of that and because I find it cooler as well. Lol.

[@jonathangzzben]

@@kamachuno there is a trick for it to make it easier. Do a quarter circle down and then a quarter circle front and press the button in the middle of the quarter circle front motion

[@dr.phil.pepper3325]

Same here, I've bought a stick because they look cool, but I keep using it because it is less stressful for the thumbs and wrists. I've made several attempts to turn back to a pad just to avoid carrying around a huge arcade stick, when I want to play at a friends house. But my thumbs get exhausted super quickly. It feels like typing with two fingers on a keyboard after learning 10-finger-typing. I'm using the stick not only for fighting games, but also for other games with digital inputs like run and guns, shmups or beat em ups. I can't imagine a life without arcade sticks anymore.

[@iamlpdo19]

Facts on this entire statement

[@collywobwob]

I have to say that as a bass player, hitbox has made more sense to me than all the other controllers, cuz I was already used to "finger-work"

[@TSE_WOODY]

As someone acquainted with your mother, same.

[@kelzakdub]

I really feel this! I'm on keyboard rather than hitbox but the same thing applies. Movement feels so much easier with 4 dedicated buttons, so do inputs.

[@chrxs61632]

@@TSE_WOODYdayum

[@aeradan1694]

@@TSE_WOODYbeat me to it man😂

[@maccabanana1373]

As a pianist it was the same for me

[@Malavander]

As for the cognitive load of wrapping your head around Hitbox movement, that will all get baked into your Type 1 thinking with practice. The thing I struggle with on pad is the fine manipulation, articulating the same motions in a tighter, more precise space, versus the coarser manipulation of the larger controllers. It's like playing a miniature guitar versus a piano, or signing your name on a grain of rice versus a pad of paper. Just feels super claustrophobic to me.

[@Kanoa99]

Split dpad mod solved this for me, everything feels waaay more deliberate!

[@GrootGuitar]

Blue. Toad. Rabbits. Glad you ended up doing this! I had a feeling your thoughts would be this well rounded and in depth. Your Hitbox videos led me to owning a Snackbox Micro Hitbox. It's been an amazing experience that has inspired me to practice even more lately. 🎸🦖

[@aminzamen9184]

get influenced jajajajaja

[@TMNTfever]

The biggest problem I had with hitbox was when I switch sides. Player 2 side really hard for me. Personally, I just love stick more, and I've become more casual over time, so I rather just use stick and have fun.

[@ShadowBlade79]

K-Levers use a grommet instead of a spring pivot system, which allows you to snap back to neutral more quickly. Great for movement in Tekken with KBDs and wavedashing. But you can get a lighter tension grommet that lets you move more freely in 2D fighters. Works very well, honestly. Personally, I use battops on my Japanese levers because I like a more pronounced grip when I move. But that's just me. SOCD on Hitbox/Leverless also makes KBDs absolutely trivial in Tekken, and I love it.

[@via_negativa6183]

As a Tekken Mishima player I couldnt imagine life without my Korean stick.

[@rhagos5562]

its my turn with the Gromit mug

[@voodoochild555]

I would also consider mechanical keyboard if you play on pc. Similar inputs to hitbox but you have a lot more options to customize like setting specific keys for throws or lp+mp+hp

[@human__________]

agreed. i'm going to get a hitbox style controller to try it out but i doubt i'll find it all that superior to keyboard. after that i'm going to try finding something like a corne keyboard for better ergonomics. or maybe i'll rage quit sf6 and get neither haha

[@Amaling]

Keyboard is genuinely the best controller, but the issue is the delay you get connecting it to PS4/5, which matters a lot in tourneys

[@human__________]

@@Amaling you mean consoles have latency with keyboad? or just the time to set it up?

[@Rutzou4]

they had to nerf the superior controller(keyboards) by adding input lag on consoles@@human__________

[@pedrohenrique-db3xd]

​@@human__________ keyboards on consoles have latency on the inputs. Since most offline tournaments setups are on console (because its easier equipment to use) using Kb is not good in the long run if you want to be competitive.

[@DJayPhresh]

Part of the reason I love French Bread's fighting games is they have an alternate input to dashing: ForwardAB. It's one movement rather than three, and it makes dash cancels and the like really consistent and fast. Makes movement on their gamea incredibly fun.

[@GeebusCrust]

My biggest reason for switching to stick over pad is ease of access to repair/replacement parts. If I had a dollar for every d-pad I've destroyed playing fighting games, I'd have a few dollars, but nowhere near enough to replace the first busted controller. I'm aware that mods and extra parts are available, but I've never really been able to find what I need, and I'm way more uncomfortable taking a pad apart than a stick.

[@proggz39]

Especially now that the DualSense dpad feels and inputs like mushed potatoes, it may be a pretty good idea to switch to stick

[@SilverTheTabby]

Some notes on pad that you missed. These show up in other Fighting Games outside of Street Fighter: ■ Pad has access to more macro buttons. Very relevant in Skull Girls and DBFZ who have a lots of 2-button combinations like Snapback and Vanish. You can also buy official Back Button Attachments for even more macro options. ■ Pad is *terrible* for Negative Edge characters, such as SF4 Juri or Zero in Marvel vs. Capcom. You need to either have awkward shoulder button macros or a claw grip (terrible for your wrists). ■ Arcade lever is great for Float Control in vs. games like DBFZ, where Super Jump Float determines a lot of neutral interactions. It is easy to accidentally use double jump on Pad, and float control is very unintuitive on All-Buttons layouts. ■ DPad + Analog stick SOCD tricks are very game-specific. In SF5, DPad down + Stick up = up, while in DBFZ DPad down + Stick up = down. ■ Modified DPad Buttons are great; the mod separates the single plastic piece into 4 individual buttons. Not only does it reduce the resistive force (no more charging thumb pains!), but it improves blocking precision, and unlocks additional SOCD tricks (DPad Left + DPad Right = Neutral) and shortcuts by skipping diagonals (2636 for Double QCF Super and 6246 for Half Circle Super in GG Strive) ■ For tournament setups without audio (especially at locals), you can plug Headphones into a pad, stealing the game audio. Especially nice with Active Noise Cancelling. More expensive boards for custom-built arcade sticks can also have this feature, but I've found it rare out in the wild.

[@AdmiralBobbery123]

As a Pad player, I always got frustrated with how it was basically impossible for me to ever learn Zero or Vergil in UMVC3 because of their reliance on negative edge. It felt like the two best characters in the game being locked behind a different controller (or an extremely awkward controller setup)

[@kaos7116]

I play on pad but I don't I use the pad. I use the analog stick is this normal?

[@SilverTheTabby]

@@kaos7116 not at high level, no. The D-Pad is better for grounded dashes, and for blocking. The analog stick is better for motion inputs, (especially half circles), Instant Air Dashes, and for float control. I personally use my modified D-Pad for 95% of the game. But, I quickly swap to the analog stick for Instant Air Dashes and for half circles, returning when it's clear that I need to block.

[@kaos7116]

@@SilverTheTabby I got VIP in strive and TTG in Tekken playing on it, guess I'm just built different

[@darklombax2580]

What’s negative edge

[@justsomeguywithshades2318]

As a controller player, the dash macro in games like strive have blessed me in many ways.

[@jefflevy606]

i switched from controller to stick recently and i miss having a shoulder button dash macro so bad lol

[@TheWordPlay]

For years I always used a USB Sega Saturn pad to have access to 6 face buttons. I really loved that controller! Only downside was not having a select or PS button, so I switched to stick out of necessity.

[@darkinsanity98473]

Well as a fighting game newbie planning to get into SF6, i actually didn't expect Arcade stick to come in 3rd place. Guess that exemplifies my newb staus but Im still getting one for SF6, Arcade sticks just seem so cool to me, and as a casual i was always terrible on pad, stick seems like it will be more intuitive for me when it comes to quarter circle and half circle inputs as mentioned in this video.

[@Eidolon11]

its important to know while this stuff is tiered its based on his opinion, really if youre down for arcade stick, enjoy. its all based on the player. if youre struggling with the stick, dont think "i messed up i need pad or hitbox" all of em got the nuances and such. its all about what feels good for you. and each thing has their skill floor to get good and comfortable with them

[@atata9]

I just got into SF6 and I was playing with a controller and did not like how some inputs felt, I kinda wanted to go back to arcade stick just for nostalgia. However, a hitbox was my favorite option so I am using my keyboard. No money spent and I am already used to wasd.

[@PauloCesar-vh5kk]

I bought an Xbox controller just to play SF6, but I just couldn't get used to it and went back to using my keyboard. For some reason i'm better using it, maybe because i've been a PC player all my life.

[@hericiumcoralloides5025]

These slight differences and advantages won't really matter much to the vast majority of players. Pick what's most fun and comfortable for you. I've always been better on stick than pad, even though pad has some clear advantages, so I play on stick. Also, sticks just look cool IMO. If you want to see how hitbox might feel you can definitely play on keyboard. Aside from the clutter of extra buttons everywhere, it's very similar. You can also map the layout to yoyr comfort and needs.

[@ChrisStoneinator]

Stick is still the most intuitive and ergonomic. Don’t believe the hype around leverless. As for pad… sure games have gotten better at allowing for the weaknesses of pad, same as simcade racing games have gotten better at allowing for players not having a wheel. Doesn’t mean pad is now on par with a real stick.

[@nybethobdilord6912]

Snake Eyez actually used a fightpad in Street Fighter. They are pretty great and combine the benefits of the button layout from both sticks and standard pads with a dpad. I myself use one. If you want to try one then I highly recommend the Hori fighting commander or the Razor Raion fightpad. I use the Razor Raion and it's compatible with ps4/5 and PC.

[@doomriff4506]

Wouldnt really recommend the Razer, its Dpad struggles hard with diagonals. Switched back to Hori. Used the FC4 for almost all of SF5 before the wear was too much

[@nybethobdilord6912]

@@doomriff4506 I haven't had any issues with it and I use it for just about every classic and modern fighting game I play.

[@digitalsmear]

Other problem with the Razer pad is no analog stick, so no SOCD tricks. The Hori pad has one analog, in a Dualshock positioning, so you can do them, albiet, awkwardly. The real winner is the Victrix Pro controller that lets you swap parts around so you can put the analog in an X-Box configuration and make the SOCD tricks a little easier (pointer finger over the top)

[@nybethobdilord6912]

@@digitalsmear scod tricks are lame. It's for people who struggle with execution. Don't need such a handicap if you practice.

[@digduck9463]

I'm loving the HORI Fighting Commander octa controller(pad)

[@braintumor10000]

Another big thing for hitbox to consider is that due to input leniency in newer games, hitbox is very hard to get used to on retro titles. I play a lot of 3s on hitbox and as a necro main I can't tell you the amount of times ive dropped my bnb nado hook combos due to how specific the half circles have to be. That being said there are socd shortcuts that still work on retro. So to anyone who likes retro games AND hitbox stick with it!!!

[@ashtar3876]

Yeah half circles are weird. Dudley on keyboard here.

[@anunknowndude]

So yeah, let me use another imput to get a move with a different imput... hitbox is not cheating... I wouldn't call it cheating, but it's definitely taking another route to the goal .. well, yes, it's kind of cheating

[@naejimba]

Plus I've talked to two different Zangief gods from ST and they both tried out a hitbox style and both said doing 360 motions (let alone 720s) are not possible to do consistently. So if you play an older game and want to play a character with a 360 it is NOT a viable option!

[@VoidEternal]

I get a lot of shit for it, but I do just fine playing with a Xbox styled controller while using the analog stick. Personal comfort will matter way more in the long run, so make sure you put that at the front of your controller decisions. (BlueToadRabbits)

[@kaleidoslug7777]

100% same, analog stick is the way to go for me. On actual pad I often misinput the vertical directions and even doing Shoryuken is pretty uncomfortable

[@hmad898]

on my xbox controller i switch between the stick and dpad. dpad for dps, dashes, blocking, etc. stick for everything else.

[@redneckedcrake7059]

For the half-circle thing with hitbox, the best way I found of doing it was (for a half-circle forward / 41236); hold 4, hold 2+6, release 4+2. Much more consistent than trying to hold 4, then release 4 before holding 2, then hold 6, etc... The SOCD cleaner ensures that holding 4+6 down will cancel each other out so only the 2 (down) input comes out. This also made KoF and Guilty Gear playable, doing double half-circles and 63214+6H style inputs. 360's and 720's, I only found possible with the weird slide technique. I could do Goldlewis max charge 1080's with this though, which I had trouble with, even on stick. Tiger knee inputs are harder IMO. Try doing Dhalsim IA gales on hitbox and stick, stick is far easier. Same goes for things like Sagat kara fireball with f+HK. Overall I think stick is still better, except maybe for moving around in Tekken.

[@dihy5579]

I think this is dependent on your finger dexterity, I am very new to strive and I play on a reverse all button controller (and keyboard), was able to learn kara potbuster (6246K~P) quite quickly. I can also input the 360 potbuster (6248P) consistently. I have played piano for over 10 years, and guitar for at least 5; it is akin to doing clean hammeron/pulloffs (legato), clean trills, etc.

[@brantreis]

Great video! The thing about pad that made it far worse for SF4 was chording (pressing a bunch of buttons at the same time), it is really awkward with a single thumb (instead of two fingers in the stick) and you needed that for plinking and fadc a lot. V-skill and V-Trigger needs also, but it is just a light touch just like a throw. Making lengthy chording not necessary anymore is vital to make these games more accessible

[@justabazikdude8592]

One thing I really don't understand about that whole hitbox conversation that make it really silly to me is: I just see a keyboard.

[@stephenc7576]

Same lmao, it's a keyboard layout with arcade buttons and a non-intuitive up key, if they made the left controls the same layout as WASD it would be a lot better, because hitbox does have a better ergonomic angle to its buttons

[@crashmat1042]

@@stephenc7576 i þink it is þe way it is because its like spacebar to jump

[@stephenc7576]

@@crashmat1042 I get that, but that only works for action games, when you need to execute shapes like circles/half circles it's a lot better to have a WASD layout

[@crashmat1042]

@@stephenc7576 full circles i get, i am þankful to not play any characters wiþ full circles on my keyboard, but why are half circles harder? Just (i believe the term is) plink your 3 fingers quickly along þe 3 buttons and þere is your half circle

[@YolkyPokey]

Half circles in hitbox are a nightmare. Donkey kick combos were really hard to learn.

[@ZenithPotentia]

You think so? You kinda just roll your fingers like you’re drumming a table

[@YolkyPokey]

@@ZenithPotentia Which is easy to do in Neutral, but when you are holding down another direction... well at least I found it to be quite challenging to learn.

[@carlo5771]

@@YolkyPokey Skill issue

[@smoothsavage2870]

@5:47 "Can you map analog stick inputs to paddles without breaking tourney regulations?". This is a question I've been researching. I have a Razor Wolverine Ultimate and the Ultimate V2 controllers. When I looked up EVO rules, it seemed to be acceptable to map inputs so long as they were only cardinal directions. But other tournaments seemed more strict on button mapping.

[@jkdwarrior3]

Hey I'm new to fighting games, I have the razer wolverine ultimate as well with the interchangeable d -pad. Would you say this is a good controller to stick with long term for street fighter?

[@smoothsavage2870]

@@jkdwarrior3 I would say so! Im not a big fan of the flat D-pad though. I feel like im actually pressing the buttons when i use the stock D-pad with the raised directional buttons.

[@jkdwarrior3]

@@smoothsavage2870 oh good tip thanks

[@Asterra2]

The first controller *I* played Street Fighter on was that one that had two giant buttons-one for punch, one for kick. You got different results depending on how hard you pressed (or more "pushed") the buttons, though since SF1 was a bit of a button-mashing game, it didn't much matter. Once you figured out "fireball motion", you were more or less set until Thailand. And then you really needed "weird uppercut motion" to win.

[@Cezkarma]

Damn, considering that control scheme was only ever released in Japan, appeared in very few arcades, and was taken out of arcades very incredibly quickly due to machines breaking from excessive force, I'm surprised you're one of the people who got to play on those.

[@Topic-Star14]

𝘠𝘰𝘶'𝘳𝘦 𝘰𝘭𝘥

[@Asterra2]

@@Cezkarma Not sure where you're getting that account, but no, I played it in a local arcade in the middle of the US. Granted, this is a pretty early memory for me but you can find plenty of other reports of this control scheme online. When I finally saw the game with a six-button configuration, it totally clicked how much better that option would have been.

[@Cezkarma]

@@Asterra2 can't paste links here but a simple Google search will reveal that's the case.

[@ashtar3876]

Bro's playing on a divekick controller

[@crazycatguy4466]

Blue Toad Rabbits! Love your stuff, mad respect for you and your continued contribution to the FGC. My love for fighting games has only begun and I can say a lot of that is thanks to you and everyone here.

[@shekeib]

the hitbox cross up lets me do crazy stuff like easy instant overheads and allows me to do all kind of cool tech, but i still dont have to overhaul how i play, its perfect!

[@free_playstation_2]

Keyboard best Space for jump and ASD for back down forward is functionally a Hitbox but without the con of being checked for a potential bomb in an airport edit: and without the price tag jfc

[@jvukovic4]

This, I take off the surrounding caps and use numpad as L M and H

[@theshinken]

I actually prefer my keyboard to my hitbox because the buttons are so nice, but it also was twice as expensive as the hitbox ^^'. Also I learned fighting games on the keyboard because I couldn't afford a console and hat to emulate Street Fighter on school PCs so It's a legacy thing for me as well.

[@night1952]

I'm a total noob at FG, always played on Dualshock and hate doing motion inputs on that, feels imprecise, hurts my thumb, half the time I get the input wrong... Then I changed to keyboard and inputs are so easy, I can DP consistently without any effort.

[@andreyshvedchenko5463]

Yep, i buy optic keyboard and bind keys like on hitbox > it's rly nice place + in soft i "off buffer" or what this call (used sp.move when u "press off" the button) - what i think not problem on hitbox with his "low heigh-move buttons" but i feel it do problem for kboard and now keys "on/off" in 40ms = less poor missmove but problem with charge "TAP" moves...thx capcom in SF6 u can off this sht and now it's plays just perfect on kb + in SF6 u CAN bind evry "moves" like grap etc on evry button...YES, in SF6 KB have more profit - and u not need "soft" to fix...because it's legal, Capcom do gj to PC.

[@Innaething9]

I went from pad to leverless and the motions felt really intuitive to me. It never felt like "individual button press" like button by button but more of a string where I do a certain motion with my fingers. Doing half circle forward is the most intuitive thing ever, you just roll your hand from left to right. About the SOCD tricks, to me of course it is harder cause you have way more "codes" to remember but that's only because it is a layer of execution deeper that no other controller can do. At even type of requirement it's more comparable. If we talk accessibility, we shouldn't bring the highest execution requirement imo, we talk skill floor not ceilling. (skill floor still behing higher than any other controller ofc)

[@Quiqueleal85]

I just switched to a hitbox layout to test it out... and my brain is totally scrambled. your words sum up all the things I am experiencing atm. as I am getting better at it sometimes I wished the up button was the down button and other times I wished it was the other way around... I know it will take a lot of time but I think this will take way more than the time I switched from a controller to a stick due to how un intuitive the button placements are.

[@digitalsmear]

Once you start to think of it as the "jump" button, ala FPS games, instead of an "up" button, it gets easier.

[@Thujal]

@29:00 I've found the trick to getting half circles with HitBox is to press: back, back+down, back+down+forward (SOCD down), release back+down and press the required button. I was trying to do this previously with pressing two buttons at a time, and I would often miss the required down input, especially if I was pressing a direction just before the half circle. Now I use the three directional button press method, I don't have a problem with half circles anymore (and dare I say, I was tempted to go back to stick to perform half circles and 360s, but now I can execute them quicker and cleaner on hitbox, which eliminates the last reason I had to ever go back to play on arcade stick).

[@zagaraditya890]

Really nice video, Hitbox does have its cons yet most old people considered hitbox as cheating. I tried using keyboard lately and playing from another side is very different experience since you are using different fingers for me its harder to master than sticks but when you finally learned it, its the most precise controller out there.

[@justice8718]

It’s not that hard. We have pianos for a reason.

[@zagaraditya890]

@@justice8718 strangely I'm a pianist myself and yeah for that reason I always prefer keyboard. But my point is as kb user you have to master playing right and left side. Because mostly your finger muscle memories is just in one side

[@justice8718]

@@zagaraditya890 f ew f ew f ew few f ew w ef w ef w ef w ef w ef w ef I often do this all of the time on hitbox because the characters I play as have moves that come out on opposite inputs.

[@titus17]

it’s simple. leverless controllers allow the player to perform actions that are physically impossible to perform on the controllers that the game is designed around. On a hitbox, you can hold back and hold forward at the SAME TIME (physically impossible on normal controllers) which allows you to do things that the game is not designed to regulate like charging a sonic boom with guile while shooting your sonic boom the exact millisecond after shooting it. Doing things that your opponent cannot physically perform simply due to your controller then that’s an unfair advantage

[@justice8718]

​ @Roberto Ramirez They literally do not do this anymore. Hitbox SCOD has absolute Up priority (cause jump). Left and Right disable each other.

[@ToiletDuckFan]

I subbed. Very well explained and, generally, pretty fair. Only ever seen you as a comentator and occasionally guy doing matches, Never realised how articulated and analytical you are.

[@Thomas5k]

I played pad (Seth/Ryu) during all of th SFIV era and what I really liked is that I would use dpad for most things but use the joystick for spds. What I found easier on stick, however, was plinking for harder links like cr. jab, jab, st. jab, sweep, etc. Overall, I do prefer pad but I love playing stick because it's so tactile and fun. Also, blue toad rabbits.

[@LukeFancher]

Love Bison in Alpha 2/3, but being a pad player (too cheap rn for a good stick) means death to my thumbs. Thank you for bringing this up.

[@yannycakes5796]

Blue toed rabbits, the fight pad was my favourite controller of choice for playing SSFIV. However I destroyed my membrane in a few months across 2 different fight pads and gave up on them. (Down+left stopped working completly). Ultimately switched to hit box in 2013 for the memes.

[@yannycakes5796]

I did ironically purchase a hitbox because my other friends all used arcade stick and Everytime I tried it using it I couldn't even do an hadouken. So I was stuck using an uncool 360 controller. So to be cool I bought a hitbox.

[@MiloticMaster]

For the algorithm! I am glad that fighting games are more comfortable on console pads (and keyboard) now, it removes a big "perceived barrier" that you need a fight stick to play fighters.

[@BRJoinGames]

A topic that people don't really talk about is that you literally CAN do SOCD on arcade stick. Very often you have extra buttons on stick (usually the right two buttons L1 and L2 on my stick), you can bind those buttons to directions and execute SOCD moves! In some games you have the option to do this in game, like Tekken 7, and if the game doesn't provide this option you can achieve the same result on the steam controller options or the console options.

[@Giraffinator]

Not really feasible in offline street fighter tournaments, which is usually the context that Brian is talking in. Cool to know though.

[@BRJoinGames]

@@Giraffinator I wouldn't discard the viability of stick SOCD so easily. As far as I know you can bind your inputs however you prefer in offline tournaments as long as you don't use macros or try to bind two inputs to the same button, anything goes.

[@Giraffinator]

@@BRJoinGames so there's 3 problems. One is that Street fighter and other games generally don't let you make assignments for directions. Two, I don't know what the legality of using using steam to assign controls is, but regardless, tournament standards call for consoles. 3rd, assigning a single directional command to multiple inputs is against most, if not all tournament controller rules (with a specific exception for dualshock controllers).

[@BRJoinGames]

​@@Giraffinator I'm not saying to use the same command in multiple buttons. The left input on pad is not the same left input on the analog stick, games that give you the freedom to change your direction binds allow you to bind "pad directions" and "analog stick directions" separately, like Tekken 7. The only thing that happens when you connect an arcade stick is the analog stick directions are bind to nothing. All controllers are just buttons, even levers are buttons, inside arcade stick levers are 4 triggers. The only thing stopping you from SOCD is the way you decide to bind your buttons.

[@BRJoinGames]

@Martin Gutierrez Interesting how pad breaks that rule. But CPT has weird ruling when it comes to SOCD cleaning too so I'm not really suprised.

[@789tridente]

Unironicly the S+ god tier controller is keyboard, you can find one at the cheapest price of all the others, light weight, easy to carry, everyone has one, you can remap your button layout to whatever you want. Unironicly can't find anything bad about it other than you might need a PS4 adapter but even then it could be cheaper than a pad

[@benjman8369]

Potential for ghosting + difficulty with half circles are the only real cons I've dealt with

[@aidanpupilis2979]

For dashing with a stick you don’t need to move the stick as far as possible for the input to be read, most sticks you can move it an extremely small distance and have the input be read, even with moving the stick as far as the gate allows the speed is very comparable to that of button input movement

[@Lucas-xs6kw]

Blue toad rabbits! As someone who's first fighting game was sfv, the decision between pad and arcade stick was mighty difficult. However, It still seems like the adage of "go with what you're comfortable with and you'll see results" still holds up and will for all newcomers

[@shaolinotter]

Ive never met a pad player who wasnt injured by their controller. Thats often overlooked imo

[@contemporaryart3404]

Or how they’re constantly replacing their pads.

[@shaolinotter]

@@contemporaryart3404 meanwhile you can use an arcade stick for 5 or 10 ten years and then sell it for retail or more

[@bobsag1164]

How does a controller injure you lmao

[@eatingbreakfastrocks]

@@bobsag1164constantly rubbing the dpad causes mad fatigue and soreness on your thumb. carpal tunnel might also start showing up too

[@voraminfantes5264]

Blue Toad Rabbits, I was clicking around for the parts I was interested in XD Some comments on fight pads and non-Japanese sticks, two sections you didn't seem to know much about: The main benefit of a fight pad is that for games that let you map r3 and l3, you have easy access to all 10 buttons, and in SFV you make hitbox players cry with your extra functionalityᵗᵐ in training mode. Plus, some people really prefer the feel of floating d-pads or crosspads. Snake_Eyez is notoriously great at walking 720s on a floating d-pad, and ProblemX makes great use of a Hori Fighting Commander. As far as Korean Sticks go, the highest profile player to use one was Infiltration. While certainly a Persona Non Grata, it serves more as an example that you absolutely can have success playing on a Korean joystick at the highest level of street fighter. Korean joysticks are well represented across multiple games, and if a player is nostalgic for the feel of American joysticks, short collar Korean joysticks which are designed to fit inside Japanese enclosures are a great alternative to buying/fully assembling a stick on their own. Speaking of American sticks, there are considerable downsides in terms of assembly and availability. There are currently only a couple of preassembled commercial options, neither of which work on current gen consoles, so you better be happy using a screwdriver. Nonetheless, John Choi still rocks a MAS and he is the last American to win a Street Fighter EVO back in 08, so again personal preference is what's going to matter here.

[@voidsnorlax6556]

the ordinary pc keyboard deserves a mention as so many people play on pc these days

[@joqqeman]

It's an uncommon way to play but very solid low cost option!

[@LuminousHilt]

Blue. Toad. Rabbits. Love the breakdown. Especially the use case for character move sets.

[@k00LTV]

Took years for FGC to learn that keyboard is the superior way to play the game after all, because when you think about it that's what the hitbox layout is pretty much, and that's how I used to play most fighting games in the past but people trashed me by saying I was crazy/stupid for doing so, man, we came a long way.

[@smoothsavage2870]

Folks never see the vision until it's popularized.

[@shaolinotter]

having good buttons is a pretty significant difference for me but point taken

[@numa2k147]

I always knew Keyboard was better but the keys were too small for my big hands so I didn't stick for long unfortunatly

[@hugejackedman3447]

Very first coin-op game that was developed sometime in the 1950s was "leverless". Imagine had arcade games remained that way...🤔

[@cashbag]

Keyboard is similar to hitbox but with no SOCD

[@DarkmoonWinter]

Amazing controller review from a guy that knows what actually makes them good making me wish you reviewed far more of them.

[@97MarioDude97]

In the stick section, I definitely know the audio cues thing is a big nerf. When I played comp. Smash, GC controllers were so clicky I could tell when my opponent hit a shoulder button and could cover that option. So to cover that option for myself I swapped around my face button and shoulder button inputs 😂

[@via_negativa6183]

Thats why good stick users have dead buttons on their stick to decieve listeners.

[@retrored]

Hi, I’m a GL main who plays hitbox, and I only wanted to state that after I heard the point mentioning it

[@battlericky17]

Ty Brian because ive been waiting to buy a controller for fighting games specifically. Not a tier list guy, but i respect the stache, and the opinion.

[@battlericky17]

17:40 love you bro

[@000wolf]

Korean levers have the issue of dash inputs solved, and the answer is rubber grommets for that sweet near instant return to neutral. Pair that with some modified switches, actuators, and/or shafts, and you are ready to dash for days. Also, there are various techniques used for fast dashing that I'd argue are on par with button presses. You have to remember people were dash canceling and IADing links back in the arcades on stock Seimitsus/JLFs with those tight af controls so it is definitely possible; much harder than pad and hitbox for sure, but still possible.

[@gjergji15]

I'm so happy I switched from pad to leverless. Main reason, I was sick of controllers breaking

[@LightBringer666]

the Gamo2 K28 will always be the top tier controller for me. it's a keyboard, has multiple profiles (mostly for rhythm games) that you can be free to try out and learn, 1 keyboard profile for pc, 2 FGC with SOCD included profiles, 4 customizable PS4 and 4 switch configurations where you can map any button on the board to any input you want (you can totally play WASD + hitbox up button).

[@thejedioutcast804]

I agree, hitbox and certain types of pads are the best. Arcade stick to me is like B+ tier now, the lever mechanism is so 1980's design.

[@kanashiikami]

im jus glad to see my “hi future me” comment at the beginning of one of these, 4th wall breaking irl indeed

[@ProdigyZ0Z]

Does the PS4 pad stuff apply to the PS5 controller?

[@AdamJorgensen]

Most likely

[@CoupeDeJarnac]

Blue Toad Rabbits - I was sent here to hear an opinion on different controllers from a friend. I recently got back into fighting games and haven't played one heavily since SF4. In close to middle age I'm not able to use a pad as it destroys my hand, and I need it for work (PS5 controllers DPad doesn't do this to me but that is a side note). I picked up a stick to get into fighting games and have come across the problem of a square stick vs an octagon stick's precision, and my shoulder tends to hurt after long sessions. So now I'm on the path of trying to learn a Hitbox variant and am going down the path of trying to learn that. The reason for mentioning these cons is the mention of fingers with the Hitbox and how other versions have similar problems that might catch someone off guard who is trying to learn the game.

[@skylerjohnson1192]

The biggest thing that jumps out to me about the Hitbox is all the cons you listed can eradicated by just putting in a ton of time and learning how to use the controller. You didn't actually give cons with the device itself like you did with a pad or arcade stick.

[@icespicefan4771]

So you dont value time?

[@Gnurklesquimp2]

Using D-pad + left stick feels weird at first, but you just do it for a while and it becomes second nature. It's not nearly as big of a shift as switching to keyboard type of movement, since they indeed function so similarly, it's not a new kind of job for your left thumb to wrap your head around. I kinda hate the bit my thumb has to travel, but whether they control the same thing or have a unique function, it feels really cool to flash between them and maybe even do a bit of claw. Also, one usually irrelevant mark against the PS5 controller: My god start and select sink into the controller. I always instead use the two buttons in the very center if possible.

[@Tabootrinket]

keyboard >>>>>

[@NotaUnfamiliar]

Hit box is just a better keyboard tho

[@Caaarl_]

Amazing video! I know you don't like tier-lists, but I really hope you make more videos like this. (Blue toad rabbits)

[@TheVolcanic666]

Realistically arcade stick should be the only tournament legal controller ex. Game was made for originally a arcade stick pads and hit box's break the game in certain ways that weren't intentionally meant to be invok3d during game play

[@Cezkarma]

No, they don't. Read up.

[@a_wild_Kirillian]

Silly take. Realistically, humans can't 100% correctly account for the future. It doesn't matter what was the intention. What matters is the current state and what we can do with it. Cutting the number of controllers because they're new is braindead. Hitbox breaks nothing. Just makes things in the game easier and more intentional. Also, the games are changing with the controllers to allow exactly that: easier inputs with intentionality. You're acting like fighting games aren't the genre where discovering new (and most often unintended) tech which changes the game-flow is basically standard.

[@digitalsmear]

PS4 D-Pad tip that I have never seen mentioned: You *DON'T* actually have to *SLIDE* your finger across the D-Pad. I used to be one of those people who hated charge characters, always playing on pad. I watched a bunch of youtube videos in an effort to figure out what I was doing wrong... Nothing they said seemed like anything new... So I was staring at my controller trying to visualize what I needed to do when I noticed that the PS4 + shape with the X cut out of the middle also has a little dimple where the buttons meet, and it dawned on me. Just use the dimple. You don't actually have to slide left to right, or down to up. It's as simple as a little twitch. I went from constantly f'ing up my charge moves to nailing them nearly every time. Bonus tip: Bat top actually feels pretty good for dashing if you press the lever on the shaft, where it meets the box - effectively making it a shorter throw. You can do it with the tip of your thumb, for left, or the side of your middle finger and a quick pronation of the wrist, for right. You can do it with ball, too, but I feel like it's a little cleaner w/ the bat.

[@hardrockmusickid]

Okay so, from what it sounds like, I should get an arcade stick. They can get pretty pricey, but I haven't been able to enjoy 2D fighting games with my PS4/PS5 controller because I really struggle with motion inputs. 3D fighters are not an issue, but I play a lot of 2D fighters and the idea of drawing a QCF input on stick sounds better to me.

[@sashalamourblackatlas1260]

Blue Toad Rabiits. Real talk your content has been some of the best to listen to while working when your not in a bracket or playing rank. You provide a great level of detail and solid observation. Highly recommend.

[@Jaded.1]

This video is spot on, I mimicked a hit box button layout on my keyboard and it’s OP

[@AtleticaComputaria]

I wanted to say something regarding people using both Dpad and analog stick on ps4/ps5 controller. I learned how to play SF4 with my dad who used the analog stick, and never even thought about using the Dpad until playing sf5. I find it very hard to dash with my thumb with the analog stick, and I do everything in the analog stick (dp, fireball, quarter circle motions etc), but when it comes to dashing or cancelling something in vt, I dash with the Dpad and quickly go back to analog. SOOO yes, I may be an exception and i've never seen anyone do this, but some people do use both. I do not use them for SOCD because I can't even play the game well enough, close to hitting diamond and can't even get the basics in, so not even gonna try SOCDs, but when and if I get at a higher level, I may consider that. Even though, Thanks for the video Brian! Still watching btw. @Brian_F

[@crtchicanery9605]

blue toad raditz baby let's go A coworker of mine recently expressed interest in fighters. I brought in my fightstick and hitbox and taught him quarter circle and DP motions on both. He expressed no preference between the two of them, seemed to find them pretty equally foreign and strange. ik this is just one anecdote, but I really don't think hitbox is drastically less intuitive. You're just used to stick already.

[@hebinyao709]

As a pianist, I was thinking about the idea of using a midi keyboard for fighting games the other day, then I discovered hitbox and it makes total sense to me! My finger dexterity and strength is ready for it.

[@Cogbyrn]

The title said "Definitive Tier List" so I clicked, liked, commented, and subscribed.

[@IDoomzyy]

Blue Toad Rabbits! Looks like a lot of folk didn't watch the video 😮 great content as always Brian!

[@nogoodchad4473]

after getting my sleeper cell instructions about blue toads or whatever, I thought that your take on non-DS pads was interesting. If you wanna give one a shake, throw a few buckaroos at a Hori Fighting Commander (not the OCTA one) or the Razer Raion. I primarily play pad, and I've found those 2 to be a lot better in the long run for most fg's compared to a DS4. I would've put em up in A tier for not having any SOCD tricks, but still being comfy, viable options.

[@christianprattx]

A friend of mine in high school had a few versions of that SF4 fightpad. I used them a couple times and unfortunately didn't really end up caring for them. I first started playing on a 360 controller and then upgraded to an arcade stick a few years after. Comparing the two, I remember kinda hating the mushiness of the fightpad overall in comparison to a standard sanwa arcade stick. It was quieter, but it definitely was not as satisfying to work with. Anyway, there's my two cents. Love the channel Brine 👍🏻 Keep it up

[@prachetasnayse9709]

25:50 to the guy in chat who asked the question, the answer is yes. I play guile on keyboard xD

[@JM_FromThaStreetz]

Blue Toed (or Toad) Rabbits. Started watching you cause if your inspirational grappler videos on DNF Duel. I’ve always liked grappler and watching you made me play him even more. Now I’m a regular viewer of your KZbin videos and twitch streams because of that. Love your content!

[@joqqeman]

In SFIV you also get synergy with plink and slide. If you do crMPLP plink with Gen, you can get hp hands by doing a very simple slide LP, MP, HP and ex hands with additional macro button at the end. Decapre crMK into LP hands you can doubletap+plink crMK with LP and then slide HP, MP, LP or you can slide from LP, MP, HP for heavy hands and macro into ex hands. Double tap and/or plink into a simple slide one way. Much easier to learn then alternative input methods...

[@Wulfsmasher]

I'm a sega boomer so 6 face buttons with a round dpad fightpad is the best for me. I'm using the razer raion and that dpad is godlike, it clicks! I've tried a bunch and this one is my favorite by far, but I hear earlier versions don't have a pivot on the dpad so that's a big no-no, but I lucked out and love it. That said, I do want to try a hitbox at some point in the future.

[@bruhder5854]

Blue toad rabbits As someone that's played fighting games mostly on full keyboard all my life, it's nice to see some recognition for the speed of inputs that a pure button setup like hitbox provides.

[@aleksdzans]

I recently got into fighting games and was really inspired to dive deep and learn as much as possible. I also replaced my playstation controller with a kitsune. Many of the ergonomics reasons apply moving from a two finger tiny buttons controller, but the biggest thing is consistency. There was nothing ever more frustrating than abilities not going off because the d-pad is one single piece, so doing left-right inputs would often inadvertently press up/down depending on how high or low my thumb was on the L/R button. I would go into practice mode with characters and if their moveset featured more than one niche use case L-R input I would just skip the character because I knew that it would be frustrating. It's partly a skill issue, going from the furthermost edge to furthermost edge on the d-pad helps make it easier to make the input more accurate, but for me it was just a 100% consistency issue where I want to press the buttons and the input I made to translate into the game. Also, being new to fighting games, and also many people saying that leverless controllers require a lot of muscle memory re-learning and practice, I thought I might as well start with something that solves the problem I have and people think is great. I've been having lots of fun with it now, with none of the previous frustration where 10% of the time my input just wouldn't execute because of the directional buttons being what they are.

[@crassbandicoot5082]

Coming from a background of playing guitar, switching to hitbox/leverless has really helped me. The dexterity is kind of similar and I feel it makes the controls a lot more rythmic. I understand that due to the SOCD stuff, some things dont work how they would logically on stick/controller but my musician head has adapted and I see my combos more like playing a lick on the guitar now.

[@Dr.Barber]

Because I played mostly on PC and still do I actually learned to play Third Strike, SF4, SFV, GBFV, and DBFZ all on a keyboard which is most comparable to a Hitbox. Whenever I tell people I do this they are horribly confused, but it's always made sense to me.

[@jeanmouloud9795]

Good video as always. I'm only disagree for the spd. I'm a zangief main and i play on hitbox now and i personnaly think it's the best for spd. When your input spd the game doesn't care about diagonals and then it's really precise and fast for spd because you finish your move by pressing up and punch at the same time so you will not jump and punch as it can happen with other controller . Then there is the reverse ordrer spd witch is god like on hitbox. While you are crouching and for exemple doing light punch with hit box you press left, right,up/punch(same time) amasingly fast. And you can't do that with other controller. For spd it's just the best controller.

[@rafaelbordoni516]

Blue toad rabbits? I wish you included the good old keyboard. It's a cheap hitbox everyone has access to. It probably has its differences from hitbox as well, the access to so many buttons must be useful for something, you can probably map a lot of actions in the game with multiple keys.

[@Bamdin0]

Blue... Toad... Rabbits. side note. you have gotten me more into street fighter than i have ever been since first playing sf2 on snes which i still have to this day.

[@asdfghjkl2261]

Someone prob already mentioned it, but analog sticks and joysticks are very different. Joysticks have a gate, usually square or octagonal, with clearly defined directionals. They ONLY have 8 possible directions. Analog sticks have a massive, highly sensitive range of motion that is unnecessary and flat out detrimental to fighting game inputs.

[@Tuckie]

Blue. Toad. Rabbits. - One of the only creators where I don't skip through the video.

[@Zolitus]

Blue toad rabbit really changed my playstyle ngl. Thanks for the list and opinions

[@santiagodiaz-gutierrez8861]

Ngl I mained Goldlewis on hitbox for a while. It was actually pretty chill! It’s more of a timing challenge to get the inputs rather than the “motion” of your fingers. I think of the hitbox movement buttons as an upside down stick, and for some reason that clicked in my head to make the shape of the motions intuitive on hitbox

[@MAKRA567]

15:30 for ps4 pads hurting thumbs, that shit was real for me. When i was learning sfv i developed calluses on my left thumb just from play cammy/ken and practicing DP motions. There was a stretch where i had to stop playing because the left side of my thumb was so sore all through the day. At some point i started using an xbox controller instead of ps4 to use the control stick on it instead of dpad, just so i could keep playing pain-free. One of my biggest motivations to get an arcade stick was to be more comfortable on my fingers, and it was succesful in that. (Also anime games that required IADs or holding buttons while pressing others like how balrog's TAP works were much harder for me on pad. I *cannot* play yuzuriha on pad.

[@fisharuaru]

We are The Few, The Proud, The Hitbox Goldlewis Players. Just because something is hard to learn isn't going to stop us from partying.

[@DylanRutter]

It's possible to setup K levers for 2D play but they are definitely stock setup for 3D games like Tekken. The recoil and stuff he is talking about is the grommet tension system. Japanese levers like Sanwa use spring tension. I.e a literal spring that goes around the shaft that the actuator closes up and holds. With a k lever there is just a groove in the body that holds a large rubber grommet where the tension comes from you moving the shaft of the lever in the direction you want and it hits this grommet to pop back rather than a Sanwa spring style system that just uses the spring to snap back to neutral. So with different tension grommets, different sized shafts (i.e a smaller shaft with less diameter will have farther throw which means literally a farther motion you can move the lever with your hand with a larger deadzone before actuation of the switch). You can also have different sized actuators to effect the deadzone and how quickly you activate inputs and directions etc. If you see the Otto DIY kits people use on Sanwas the V2 is doing this. It's using a grommet tension system for your sanwa rather than a spring system.

[@tangaps]

I spent an hour practicing a Dudley combo in 3rd Strike with 4 one-frame links that are all half circle inputs (and 4 additional half circle inputs) on keyboard today and the amount of times I'd drop cause I didn't properly piano my fingers was infuriating. I've played keyboard for over a year and have it setup exactly as a hitbox layout would be and I STILL will fumble the inputs sometimes. Hitbox is definitely not for half circles

[@kamranbux8049]

What are the links?

[@tangaps]

@@kamranbux8049 4 Light Machine Gun Blows after a meaty crHK. You can link the first two or three and not be frame perfect but they HAVE to be one frame links to hit the 4th one I'm pretty sure

[@e3lmnt]

30:07 this is something you realize playing piano for the first time

[@ConnorJH94]

Brian with the sweet Blue-Toed Rabbit tech; also excellent video as always!

[@RockinGamma]

One thing people never mention about SOCD on ps4. You can change the sticks LS RS to be positioned RS LS. All you need to do is go to accessibility menu or just steam controls. This makes it way easier to do some crazy things and its never even acknowledged in any tournament rules so its always legal?

[@joemogley]

And then the tournament machine isn't a ps4 and your entire control scheme collapses

[@tohbs4062]

Funnily enough, as someone just starting off with fighting games, playing on keyboard (don’t have a hit box yet) is much easier than on a controller. It just makes sense with thinking of the inputs as codes. Especially the Z motion is easier for me to understand.

[@Amaling]

In a way it's cool how the FGC has adopted the dpad for real-time action gameplay, but ultimately it's designed as a menu-scrolling tool. For the people who's hands are lucky enough to not have issues (for now) with pad, and don't mind having to replace their controller regularly because the pad rubber wore out, good for them. But ultimately I think the two controller types which go out of their way to cater for fighting games make the most sense, will save your hands from much more pain, and will last a lot longer

[@joemurray]

updated list with keyboard for tekken 8 coming out

[@SekC_]

when you brought up using grapplers on hit box, i felt that. the only reason why i don’t use my hit box is because i play King in Tekken and not being able to Giant Swing is so bad for the gameplay.

[@saaah707]

A big pro of pad is having trigger buttons. For 6 this is gonna be huge since parry has a really awkward motion on stick (mp+mk)

[@keegxz]

Azul toad rabbits 100% agree, Hitbox is definitely the best for those that are wanting to fully maximize and be as technical as possible. Other than that I think pad is just as good for people who play characters that are less technically demanding since its much more simplified. Forever love the arcade stick tho