Let's Talk OPEN vs. CLOSED WRAP Trombone F-Attachment! How Do They Sound?

[@Jarhead-ji3lq]

As a bass trombone player, on a tenor trombone, I usually prefer the open wrap because the low range is much better and much more consistent. Tone quality is also much easier to obtain than on the closed wrap

[@trombonedavid1]

This is a video I would have loved to see back when I chose to play trombone in college. Glad I picked an open wrap after deciding to go Bach

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

I still maintain that Bach’s 42BO wrap is the worst open wrap 😤 But that’s not the one you have, right? I feel like I remember you playing on a 42AF or something?

[@showingYOUtheworld]

As a professional bass trb. (orchestral player) i prefer the open wrap. The sound is a lot more natural and in general using the open wrap is a lot more easy to play. I personally am using Hagmann Valves on my Courtois bass. and I am quite satisfied. The negative side for the beginners is, that ,,you" are controlling the air flow much harder than if you are using a rotory wrap. P.S. Sorry about my bad english

[@TheMrAshley2010]

This is the 1st of your videos that I have ever seen. There were a number of things I wanted to comment on right away. But I decided to watch your video on the Bach Strad trumpet before commenting here. There are several things in that video that I think apply directly to this one. Chief among them is that 2 instruments, made consecutively at the same factory can be very different. That is EXACTLY my experience. (So, comparing a 42B and a 42BO...just 2 horns...may reveal differences that have absolutely nothing to do with the differences in the wrap, imho.) I had the good fortune of being able to go to the Bach factory in the early 1980s and, over a period of about 2 years, buy 4 trombones. I have a 12, a 42 (no F attachment), a 42B (with F attachment, and with options I'm not sure are even offer any more. They actually called the horn I have a 42 BO because it has what they called at the time "an open lead pipe". I'm not even exactly sure what the difference in between that lead pipe and the lead pipe on my other 42. This 42 BO also has a light weight slide.), and a 50B bass trombone with F and dependent Eb rotors. In EVERY trip I took to the factory I was able to play multiple horns...over 20 when I bought the bass trombone. And some were arguably "bad" instruments. I could go on and on about that. In just the last few years I became acquainted with a technician who recommended that he increase the openings in the valves of my 42B and 50B. I was skeptical at first. But after having him "open" the valve on my 42B I was convinced. Remember, I was already convinced that these were great horns, having personally selected them at the factory. But he has made them even better! I also play a Bach 37 trumpet. I bought it off of ebay more than 20 years ago, and have been satisfied with it over all. But I know that there are better Bachs out there. I helped a student of mine pick a brand new Bach at a local music store. I played 4 hors there. One was a no go. In the other 3 I found what I thought was a good, better, best scenario. I did the play testing before my student arrived, and told him of my findings WITHOUT telling him which horns I thought were which, wanting to see him make his own decision. Kind of a blind taste test. He ended up choosing the horn that I thought was best. And frankly I thought the horn he got was better than my own horn. Finally, I haven't watched it yet, but I noticed you have a video on the Yamaha 321 euphonium. I had one of those when I was in college, a 321S. It served me well then. But knowing what I know now, I would rather have had a Besson or John Packer compensating euphonium. The Yamaha was very 'pitchy' on certain notes, and did not have the robust tone that is more common from the Besson. I know this is a giant geeked out post. But, hey, what are you supposed to do when you find a youtube channel what's all about instruments that you play? Glad youtube recommended your channel.

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

Thanks for your comment. The variability between Bach instruments is unfortunately a very real phenomenon. You have probably one of the most quantifiable experiences I've heard about in that regard, seeing as I don't know many who hav had the opportunity to go to the factory and try horns side by side right off the assembly line. I am interested in the process of widening rotor openings. The design of the circular rotor doesn't make much sense to me in general, with how the ports are shaped. I think your assessment on euphoniums is very accurate. The 321S is hugely popular with trombonists and high school players, but ultimately I think the more robust UK-style euphoniums are, 9.5 times out of 10, the way to go. I am extremely happy with my John Packer JP-274. I've been told to sell it and put that money towards a 321, and I'm glad I never decided to do such a thing. Although I like the 321, the pitchiness and slight thinness you described are inherent to it and other small-shank inline-4th euphoniums.

[@James_Dawes]

Two videos in one day! You're spoiling us sam! Not to mention all of the other videos you've been pumping out this month!

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

I had to make sure they were released concurrently seeing as I’m asking people to hop between them using the “card” feature in the top right corner haha! Things will have to slow down after the end of August but hopefully I’ll still be doing two uploads a week.

[@savetheclimate2292]

I don´t think that the wrap matters at all. I own a used Bach 42B with a Corporation bell since the 80th and had this trombone as the first large bore instrument as a student. At that time I was playing in a wind orchestra and a trombone ensemble. My tone was not that great and I was always told that I should use more air. But I was just not able to play with more air to generate a better and fuller sound. I had difficulties using the F-attachment in the lower register not being able to generate a nice and full sound. Since I was young at that time I thought that my limitations were due to my inexperience and the lack of lots of practice. Even ten years later I had problems with that lower register. Then I quit playing trombone for quite a long time and only recently picked it up again. Someone gave me the advice to play on a standard Bach 5G mouthpiece rather than on the 61/2 that I had played all these years since I was a student. I tried the Bach 5G and some other mouthpieces and ended up on a Schilke 51. Now the lower register is easy to play and my tone is full and rich in every register. I meanwhile own another Bach 42B with a custom modern full flow rotary valve, another Bach42 with a Hagmann valve and an open wrap and a Lätzsch with a full flow rotary valve and an open wrap. They all play easy with the lower register and all make a great sound. The sound of these instruments is different though, but not because of the open or closed wrap. The instruments are different in the brass that is used, either yellow brass or gold brass and the weight distributions are totally different. I figuered that the brass material and the weights make the biggest differences regarding the sound. Meanwhile I also recognized that the lightweight slide is actually taking away a lot of the sound quality and I now prefer a standard yellow brass slide.

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

Thank you for your comment. I would definitely entertain the notion that alloy composition, mass distribution, and most of all mouthpiece choice make for a bigger difference in low register performance than the wrap of the F attachment section. Your experience is pretty typical-once a trombonist switches from a 6-1/2AL to a something like a 4G or 5G from Bach, a 51 or 52 from Schilke, or anything with a deeper cup and wider throat, it allows for much greater facility and a more pleasing tone in the lower register. However, I would still wager that certain types of valves and wraps better help to “clean up” the transition between the open-tube and trigger registers (otherwise why would all those options exist?) but the difference does turn out to be quite small aside from the most serious and strenuous performance settings where a 1% easier-to-play instrument can make it or break it. Preferences can also vary based on the player. My personal trombone is a Conn 88H from 1975. It has a closed wrap. I think it has a very pleasant and easy-to-navigate trigger register compared to most trombones I’ve played-including any Bach 42-thus far only being beaten by another 88H which I could only try for a couple minutes as it wasn’t for sale. For me, the wider mouthpipe opening (Remington vs. standard Morse taper), the fully-copper bell section, and whatever manufacturing techniques Conn reserves for their upper-end brass (I suspect some amount of annealing) provide a lower and trigger register experience that sounds and feels pleasant.

[@jasonevans662]

I found the tone slightly more consistent on the open wrap model (listened twice). The point about higher back pressure making pedal tones easier on the closed wrap model makes sense, but I really like being able to substitute trigger+1/2 for positions 6/7 for the notes on the staff without noticeably coloring the sound. The Conn CL2000 models have this quality too.

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

I appreciate your thoroughness, Jason. After listening to the clips again I did find there to be more difference than I had heard behind the bell. What you’ve described is definitely the most important aspect of a trigger. My stock, closed-wrap Conn 88H is pretty strong in this area despite the extra bends, though Jim Marshall’s open-wrap Conn 88H does have a more open feel and sound on trigger notes.

[@ktang001]

The CL2000 rotary valve has the shortest throw in the world.

[@ruby2thursday]

benge 190f (closed) vs Getzen 3047AFR (open)....hagman (I think on the benge) vs. thayer on the getzen. Played both for maybe a 100 hours or so....I don't notice a difference in the air pressure or the sound when using the valves. same-same to me. I enjoy both. Great vid. More?!?

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

Thank you for your comment. I wish I had the chance to test out the different types of valves like the Hagmann and Thayer. Unfortunately almost all of my experience is with conventional circular rotors. The consensus from what I’ve read online is that each of those special valve types has its own advantages and disadvantages, but all are overall pretty similar to each other and a slight step up over standard rotors. I would imagine there are differences in annealing or processing between the Getzen and the Benge that are much more consequential to how each plays than the type of valve used.

[@skepticalmonkey7263]

The Bach I covet is the 42AF. I have a 1976 42b.

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

I too would really like to spend some time on an axial-type valve. I wish I could mount one on my Conn 88H to test out…

[@ktang001]

I have both a 42B (closed wrap) and a 42BO (open wrap). I find that there is not much perceptible difference in the 'blow' between the two F attachments. I can't compare the sound though, because of the differences between the 2 instruments. My 42B (closed wrap) has a standard brass outer slide and a yellow brass bell (silver plated), while my 42BO (open wrap) has a lightweight nickle-silver outer slide and a gold brass bell. Apart from how it sounds and how it 'blows', I like the look of the open wrap. Every time I look at it, it makes me smile, so it makes me happier to play that one. Thus that is the better instrument for me!

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

I do agree honestly with your mention of visual bias. I absolutely love my closed-wrap Conn 88H circa 1975, but sometimes I feel a little sad just looking at the closed wrap, even though its response and volume and tone are all superb. Do you notice much a difference in sound (trigger stuff notwithstanding) between your 42s? As in do you find more immediacy of attack and more top end on the one with the lightweight nickel outer slide? But then again, I suppose the gold brass bell might balance some of that out, eh? I guess the better question would be whether you find that having all three alloys present (yellow brass/gold brass/nickel silver) gives you a greater range of tone quality than a more or less all-yellow brass horn.

[@davidwilson2214]

Im a Conn 88HT dirtbag. Have tried almost all others and like the 88H the best. Recently got a new 88HT which I really like. Mouthpieces that work best for me are Laskey 59MD, Laskey "Joe Alessi" model 60 Solo, and the Schilke Symphony Series {like the M5.2 and the D5.2) depending on what is being played. Also own a 1967 Conn 8H which my parents bought me new in middle school. Have owned open wrap as well as closed wrap horns and still like the 88H the best. 88HT with its thinwall bell sounds nice. Enjoy your channel. Keep it going! Will be viewing them.

[@davidwilson2214]

I meant the closed wrap 88s. Should have made this clear in my above comment. Thank you

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

David, I’m always glad to meet a fellow 88H dirtbag. Thanks for your kind words and the insight on mouthpieces! Laskey is on my list to try (only tried their horn mouthpieces, which I really liked the tone of a lot), and while neither the standard Schilke 52 type deal nor the Schilke Symphony bass trombone pieces were quite my speed, I suspect the D5.2 would do me well. I just can’t understand how people get a good large-bore trombone tone out of as shallow a cup as the straight 52 or 53. How much difference do you notice between a typical 88H bell and the 88HT? I am a heavyweight guy on trombone these days (Megatone 5G and I even installed a counterweight on my 88H to keep it from getting edgy - LOL) but on trumpet I STRONGLY prefer the combination of heavy mouthpiece/light bell, so maybe I ought to try that out on trombone once I feel a little better about my classical tone.

[@davidwilson2214]

@@SamuelPlaysBrass I felt the same way about the Schilke Standard Series 52 and 53. Ok but not the answer. The Schilke Symphony Series are a different world. They are heavier and produce a big sound with lots of projection. Only drawback is that the M5.2 {as well as the M5.3 ) seem to lose the midrange quite a bit. In some instances of playing in a large group where projection and volume is needed, they seem to be well worth it. In a solo situation they should be avoided. The D5.2 and D5.3 are much better but they seem to too dark. So I really like the Laskey 59MD. It has a smaller rim but somehow gets a large nice sound that is a nice balance between dark and bright. This mouthpiece is absolutely perfect for solo work. The Laskey Joe Alessi model size 60 Solo is like a bigger 59MD but not as sweet a sound. But I like the bigger rim. So its a tossup I guess. Overall the Laskey 59MD is almost hard to beat! Its my #1 choice. The thinwall bell on the 88H is good but if I had it to do all over again, I would probably get the regular bell. When you really bear down and put a lot of air and support the thinwall seems to not be able to handle it as well as the regular bell. Both are great though. Dont see much difference in the open wrap horns. Would like a little better valve though. Maybe Conn will come thru with a free blowing valve of some sort. Played a thayer valve horn years ago for a test drive and was blown away with it! No pun intended. Have never forgot it. Hope that helps some but its almost impossible to nail down mouthpieces for people. Just have to try it for yourself. Im sure you know that. See ya later!

[@ktang001]

@@davidwilson2214What is the benefit of the thinwall? Is it a different sound? Does it 'hold' the sound differently? Or is it a matter of less weight, and thus more comfortable to hold / balance? Or all of the above?

[@davidwilson2214]

@@ktang001 Thin wall bell is pretty much a minimal item but was curious to try it. It does produce a nice edgy sound with less effort but if you are playing in a large ensemble I would stick with a regular bell. No familiar with the heavy bell. I’m 70 yrs old and don’t play much at our church. So I need all the help I can get. My final opinion on lightweight bells is to don’t even worry about it. Not much to it.

[@boneblaster69]

In my opinion, the valve wrap doesn't really make a difference. I find that the closed wrap makes it harder to find and empty condensation but that's it. I think it has to do more with the angle that the air is traveling at through the rotor and how open the rotor is. My Bach 42 closed wrap with a brand new instrument innov. Rotor plays better than all open wraps I've ever played. My Bach 50 bass trombone has open wrap valves (stock) but they are not the best valves I've ever played.

[@benjaminfraser2535]

Have you thought about doing a video about the shires Q-series trombones: Q30 rotor/axial valve and the QAlessi Model?

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

I’ve thought about it plenty, but I’ve never had the opportunity to try a Shires trombone. The gear I can actually review on the channel is limited to what’s available to me locally, which usually excludes brands like Shires.

[@benjaminfraser2535]

@@SamuelPlaysBrass that makes sense. I would think that you would enjoy playing those horns and reviewing them on this channel! 😊

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

@@benjaminfraser2535 Well, we’ll see if I can ever get my hands on one. Not a ton of professional trombonists here in Spokane, WA.

[@andrewexists4517]

The note response seemed a little better on the open wrap, but I only noticed it in the first articulation clip.

[@peternaryd_operasinger]

Great video as always Samuel!😁👍👍

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

Thank you Peter!

[@peternaryd_operasinger]

You're so welcome!😁

[@Juan_Bone09]

i liked the 42BO more

[@piggdsbest333]

Does the closed wrap have a more mellow/soft/pastoral sound and the open wrap a bright/clear/powerful sound since first one has more air resistence, does it change the overall sound of all notes ranges (not only pedal) or is this wrong ? Thank you for your video.

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

It’s a VERY minor difference, almost entirely in feel on the player’s end rather than sound on the audience’s end. It also only affects those lower notes for which the trigger is actually used, meaning only a few notes in the lower and pedal registers. The difference in impedance is not very significant unless a completely different style of valve is used for the trigger, which is something I haven’t had the chance to experiment with unfortunately.

[@piggdsbest333]

So will it be easier to have a mellow/softer/pastoral sound (like euphonium or fungelhorn compared to trumpet or french horn) on Closed wrap then open wrap ? Thank you for your info.@@SamuelPlaysBrass

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

@@piggdsbest333 no worries. No, the difference in sound is slim-to-none between the wraps. And again, it only affects the blow of a few notes on the instrument.

[@piggdsbest333]

Great to know ok. What kind of Tenor Trombone would you then recommand for a softer/mellow sound for pastoral/church music such as Bach or Baroque music. Trying to avoid the brighter/power trombones as those would be more suited for Jazz Avenues or big Band setup. @@SamuelPlaysBrass

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

@@piggdsbest333 A standard large-bore symphonic tenor trombone. Look for specs like .547” bore, 8.5-9” bell. If the bell is made from rose brass, copper, or something more pink-looking than the yellowish tint of normal brass, that can help, too. My preference is the Conn 88H, which has all three of the above attributes (.547” bore, 8.5” bell made entirely of copper). The Holton TR-158 or King 5B are good picks if you favor the more diffuse sound of a 9” bell. The Holton, I believe has a rose-brass bell, whereas the King does not-although in isolation that singular factor means little. Additionally, regardless of the trigger wrap, a trombone with an F attachment naturally weighs more than one without, and that extra mass reflects lower frequencies better, resulting in a fuller, wider sound with less harshness. I think any large-bore trombone with something like a Bach 4G mouthpiece should fit the bill you are talking about, but the three examples I mentioned are ones that are notable for having a nice, round tone.

[@thedietbender1594]

Great video

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

Thank you!

[@RaichuEnjoy]

At my school I use a blue pbone for jazz, we got our first piece today and somehow I didn’t fail

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

Pbones are a blast but man, I hate the plastic slides. They work at about half the speed of a brass slide. Also, I don’t usually say stuff like this, but speaking from brother to brother, quit liking your own comments. It’s very obvious and it comes off as desperate at best and cringe at worst. I’m not trying to be mean here, just words of experience.

[@RaichuEnjoy]

@@SamuelPlaysBrass i know liking my comments is cringe, but if I don’t, who will 🤷‍♂️. Anyways nice video about the trombone wraps, but I prefer a straight tenor.

[@jjschm20]

So I play a closed wrap and I actually sort of think those that swear by open wrap are kind of overblowing the difference. Pun intended. However, there is definitely a sound difference here. The open wrap seems more open and robust (by a small degree but it’s there for me). I would say something like sounding louder without actually being louder.

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

I think you’re exactly right. As I mentioned in the video, there are other factors that make a bigger difference than the trigger wrap, like bell material for instance. My copper-bell Conn 88H (closed wrap) has a more enjoyable trigger register experience than either of these trombones, even if the 42BO feels 10% better than the 42B down there.

[@I_was_here_24]

I play with a closed wrap I’ve never personally noticed a difference but that’s just me

[@SamuelPlaysBrass]

@@I_was_here_24 There are definitely many factors at play and trigger wrap is just one small one! I agree with you, although maybe my impression will change once I get to try some of the different valve types (Hagmann, Thayer, axial, open flow, tru-bore, etc.)