Let the Fighting Game Controller Arms Race Begin

How do streamer change shirt so often in video?????
Anklegator is in the future: Anklegator1/statu...
Yes, It's true. This box has no stick.
streamed Aug. 25, 29-30 & Sep. 1, 2022
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If you're ever confused by some terminology try looking it up in the FG Glossary:
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Clips Channel:
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Editing/Thumbnail by Magic Moste:
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#FGC #Sajam

[@bageltoo]

The Xbox Kinect player will always come out on top. No levers, no buttons, not even a single a compatible game - literally impossible to fight.

[@deadfr0g]

“I am literally the controller.” - me, the world Kinect champion

[@romajimamulo]

Except for Strive with mods that were recently finished

[@gwen9939]

The 2023 EVO top 8 will include a happy chaos player using the NES light guns, a ram player using the DK bongos mapped to Slash and heavy slash, and a sol player twerking on both of them with playstation Eye Toy

[@simonlegaspi9837]

It's hard to focus on execution or strategy against the Kinect Player because they will accidentally concuss you within the first 5 seconds of the round.

[@mikejonesnoreally]

@@JustCagna Someone (which kinda' sounds like: "Sajam" o.o Ohwait. Noitdoesn't.) needs to send Diago the Activator and a new pair of white socks. :3

[@ragnarosthefirelord8662]

The "my opponent had a hitbox" OS after losing will be strong this season, I can't wait

[@deciett]

Pretty solid strat. If you lose, it's cus they were on hitbox. If you win, you beat them even though they were a cheater.

[@tabkg5802]

Is it "I don't even play this game" 2.0?

[@gwen9939]

my opponent was on cheatbox + my character is low tier + I don't even play this game

[@carlosaugusto9821]

Always has been. When it was less known and not validated by some pro players it was naturally much less respected.

[@jamesw5713]

Being able to hold opposing directions at the same time is cheating, not sure how to dumb this statement down for you. Let Capcom remove this option in software and watch them scurry back to pad.

[@3XHS]

The year is 21XX. Everyone is playing fighting games with their minds alone. EVO is just people thinking for 12 hours. In all seriousness, as a Keyboard player I think it’s real funky that people are just moving to leverless controls, because it just feels like people will at some point eventually end up where I already am.

[@brandonwilbur2146]

21XX kind of sounds like IRL combat sports from an abstract perspective

[@Randomsmashfan64]

False. FGC ain't playing games with their minds anytime soon cause we don't think. Why do you think gorillas are as strong as they are?

[@HonkHonkGoose776]

Same

[@whimzycloud]

When I first started playing, using the keyboard was seen as a disadvantage lol

[@RandomAnimeGamer]

SUPER THEORY FIGHTER 4 ARCADE EDITION

[@MrBoltstrike]

There's this scene in Code Geass when the main dude and tactician Lelouche gets his own giant mecha and its weird shield systems are described as too complex for the average person to master. He's basically just sliding his hands across this console to make shields and shit pop up. The mech was made with its own custom hitbox no doubt.

[@Mr.9]

Lelouch busy cheating with hitbox while Suzaku and Kollin are true warriors playing with stick

[@theoriesbanana]

Suzaku's classic line "Of course hes using a hitbox couldnt win GG" always stuck out as weird to me but I get it now

[@silencos5974]

His greatest enemy will be twitter

[@PipeRetrogamer]

Lelouch did nothing wrong

[@TheJbrown60]

​@@Mr.9 this is why he was the MC and not those two

[@maidenlessbhvr]

The Potemkin mains really out here making their own boxes just to do the worlds most optimal megafists

[@BooAxe]

As soon as I saw the anklegator box in the thumbnail i knew it was gonna be good. And as a Potemlin main its funnier because Pot would still be bottom tier even if all Potemkins played on this box

[@Glennjamyyyn]

The smartest pot player will find a way to think less

[@skeeterray9694]

At locals, when I first saw his controller, I asked anklegator if it had SOCD, he then flipped the switch in the upper left corner and said 'Yes.'

[@shogunc7718]

Ahahaha

[@Robstafarian]

I love that it uses a hooded switch, though the down position should engage the SOCD cleaner such that the stick is tournament legal with the hood lowered.

[@Holidoll]

That's fucking horrifying

[@andrex0071]

you don't need even a switch mine just changes with holding start select and left at the same time

[@eb6510]

the controller debate will always feel like a bunch of monkeys arguing over how best to crack open a coconut

[@DANCERcow]

With an ax kick, that is the only way!

[@truelovewontwait]

Bonobo and monkeys

[@ihavetubes]

crowbar is best way

[@TheOriginalStix]

​@@ihavetubes OMG crowbar is just blatantly cheating, bare hands or a small knife are the only ways you're allowed to open a coconut and anything else should be banned.

[@djhero0071]

"This jungler takes off his pants and twerks in every lane at the same time" that made me chuckle lol

[@RaphDeGrate]

The amount of power that exists in 4 frames

[@Xenozillex]

yeah, in tekken its the difference between a jab and a launcher.

[@ZeludeRose]

its worth adding that the kara mega fist "analog macro" as he calls it was intentionally done to point out a loophole in macro bans. he cites the 2,222 card yugioh deck as inspiration, which was a ridiculous stunt done in tournament to force a card limit. the only macro rule is that one button can't do 2 inputs, which his nightmare solution passes, but it's obviously still basically a macro.

[@Dhamphyre]

Got into a twitter fight (instant L) with a guy in Apologyman’s replies over exactly this.

[@eragon78]

To be fair, this is still "less good" than a true macro. It takes up real space on your controller, and requires your entire hand to do the slide. A REAL macro is just a single button press. You can fit way more of them in a smaller space, and without committing nearly as much time with your hand position to use them, which means they can be used for more types of inputs rather than just combos. And while probably not too likely, there is potential for missinputting with the slide. If you do it too fast or slow it can potentially not read the input correctly, or there is also the potential that you maybe skip over a button on accident or hit the buttons in the wrong order on accident if your hand slips. A macro there is no way to mess it up. Granted, im not saying this is ok still, just that there is a debate still. A REAL macro is still significantly better than this "analog macro", even if this analog macro is still pretty useful.

[@tdimensional6733]

The Anklegator has me in a quantum state between being fucking disgusted and wanting one.

[@robind506]

the immense, intense game winning strategy* that broke the game *strat thats only ideal when your mind is crystal clear, your soul is at peace, you anticipate the enemy's next move, you're able to input in less than 5 frames, your hands arent cold, its past 5pm east time, your connection is less than 80 ping, the enemy has a name starting with a-f, and you have next week's powerball winning numbers

[@theoya]

In this video, Sajam becomes a grappler sympathizer.

[@machinatingminotaur6285]

everyone is but they lie to themselves

[@I_recommend_suicide]

From pot discord mad scientist to sajam video. My man anklegator has made it

[@erickp3003]

It pains me that Sajam did not show the accordion

[@ShaolinPretzels]

I’m so glad to finally see the inputs on that last controller. I’ve seen that thing at a few majors lol

[@jameslevang2254]

And so the cycle begins anew…

[@PokeHearts]

That final controller is insane lmao, I love the idea

[@CulturedDegenerate]

I managed to hold it together until the kara megafist electric slide demonstration. What an absolute legend

[@zolntacLoL]

The default solution to something like the end controller, that games like League of Legends and others attempt to do, is to restrict the amount of copies of a button you can use. So for example League attempts to limit certain inputs to only being assigned to 1 button. And some inputs are limited to just 2 buttons. So you cant just have 10 left inputs or something for each combo. This still allows for making combos easier to execute via optimizing the required hand movement. But its restricted in such a way that it's no longer a ''Simple'' ''No compromises" solution of just putting every combo in a line somewhere on your pizzabox.

[@life-destiny1196]

Respectfully, it seems naive to me to believe that the software can tell the buttons on Anklegator's box apart to know there's more than 1-2.

[@Myth_FPS]

Unfortunately fightsticks are wired for those buttons to be assigned to that button. So it's impossible to limit, as they're not bound to a certain command, but there's multiple left/right dpad buttons all wired to input left or right dpad

[@nicholaskarras2759]

@@life-destiny1196 just put it in the rules as specified for TOs by the devlopers. If arcsys goes "hey chuckle nuts, these are the rules for allowed input devices for our games, if we see any breaches of this we are going to nintendo the shit out of your tournament" then TOs are gonna check people controllers, fundamentally the FGC still revolves around the tournament scene, if every single relevant tournament is forced to have the ruleset, smaller locals/regionals are gonna adopt them as well. And in cases for online play, its way harder, but if you dissuade a majority of the community from doing it in general, less people are gonna bother doing it.

[@MikeScarbro]

Watching that person slide one finger to do a kara Mega Fist left me in awe. Truly science has gone too far.

[@FishSandman]

The PizzaBox clips had me fucking dying. The future is now

[@Living_Target]

"SOCD on controller isn't comfortable so people don't do it." Hating on claw grip like a true-non Melee player.

[@proto303]

Any person who grew up playing PSP MonHun is already several parallel universes ahead

[@DefScream189]

Claw grip bad for fingers though ):

[@AhegodKira]

Personal preference is the most important factor, at least to me. When I was learning fighting games, I actually had to switch from pad to stick for a few reasons: -I was gripping the controller so hard I was hurting myself, be it my palm, my fingers, my wrist, etc -I found out I naturally hold the pad at an angle where it actually screws up my inputs -I enjoy the novelty of a fightstick That being said, I think if I had the opportunity to start over with a hitbox, I think I would 100% do it.

[@Josie.770]

I'd love to see a King from Tekken version of a hitbox with all of this chain-throws mapped out

[@logandunlap9156]

please no

[@jimdino77]

Here’s a tip…. Spam Ki charge….different routes just require hitting that one input then continuing to mash Ki charge

[@Josie.770]

@@jimdino77 I have my chainthrows down

[@hidden4898]

The comfort is key answer has always rung true for me too. My first fighting game was Hisoutensoku on my laptop, and my second was Melty Blood. And from there forward hitting the buttons to move just felt good, felt natural. Then somewhere along the line I fell for the stick boomers sweet words and got one, but it just wasn't as good and especially dash canceling in Blazblue hurt my wrist like crazy. Eventually I settled on using a keyboard at home and having a compact little AFS Stickless that I exclusively use for locals, and it works out beautifully.

[@dralakba-dusk31]

yoooo Hisoutensoku!!!

[@shaolinotter]

people thought sticks were better because macros were illegal in arcade games. That's literally it. Once consoles were standard it became pretty meaningless

[@carlosaugusto9821]

Don't forget to count the factor of the excessive traditionalism that is the dominant tendency in the fgc. That culture started to change more when the group of influencers became more populated by players who are not biased for sticks. Internet fame is enough, but if the person is a strong tournament player the effect will be even stronger.

[@stanzacosmi]

I prefer sticks because they feel better to play on.

[@jac1011]

anklegator is amazing, imaging just having rows upon rows of frame perfect combos.

[@lucaslennan3356]

I might've said this before somewhere but I have a prediction about the rules that will be made regarding this stuff. Pretty simple, no button mapped to execute multiple inputs (already a rule, can't map > plus P as a 6P macro), and no non-directional input mapped to multiple buttons, directional inputs restricted to 2 buttons to mirror pad (can't have more than 1 S buttons and more than 2 ^'s for instance). This won't prevent hitboxes and crossups from being used but will prevent nonsense. Personally I'm okay with the level of nonsense we have now, but it may get worse, and the boomers will complain. So I think this is a fair middle ground we can reach.

[@memorabiliatemporarium2747]

To me, this jus show that Lord Aris is the most powerful person in the FGC. He really went to the moon ...

[@poepertist]

he mostly yells at the moon xD

[@memento-9971]

I would cry if I had to do a 1080 on leverless yall got my respect

[@raymaztereljackson9729]

Its not that bad since most games dont force you to input all the cardinal directions

[@JameboHayabusa]

It's hard at first, but once you start to understand the rhythm of how to input cleanly on a hitbox, it's actually very easy to do. I had a hard af time doing pretzels at first in hitbox, but after I thought about it for a while, it's easier than ever. Just like anything else with fighting games, there's a learning curve.

[@DavidLee-cw6ci]

Just put it in a line of twelve buttons

[@brodouken257]

I can only do Iron Tager's b grab into astral on my hitbox lol. I look like an idiot sliding my finger that many times but it works fine.

[@magic_dot_exe]

I'm sure these devices were originally made with the intent of better inputs, but they're also available for better accessibility for people who prefer keyboard style inputs. So in the end, I don't care if it's a hitbox or dualshock or DDR pad, you're playing the same game as me and I think that's cool.

[@TheDiggus]

Funny, I got my hitbox in the mail literally today. And really the SOCD makes a huge difference in tekken for backdashing but not much else. The reason I got it though was because I don't want to wreck my wrists and my thumb on a pad anymore.

[@yoshitsune5691]

Idk I found it easier to kbd on pad than my hitbox in tekken, tho I normally play 2d games on my hitbox and pad for tekken because well tekken was my first fighting game soo im just used to pad on tekken. While I learned 2D games on hitbox.

[@MH3Raiser]

Pad players look, he was so close to true greatness. Pain is power friend, all hail the PlayStation dpad gods!

[@TheDiggus]

@@MH3Raiser I did play like 800 hours of tekken and bought multiple hori fighting commanders, pad really is life.

[@MH3Raiser]

@@TheDiggus Ah, I apologise... I judged too quickly. Go on with the blessing of all pad players friend, you have earned our respect.

[@mikejonesnoreally]

@@TheDiggus The Pad may be The Life but Hori does NOT apparently equal "longevity." xD

[@christopherwest671]

Only been playing 2D fighting games since Strive. I started playing on an Xbox controller and hit celestial with Zato using the joystick. People would comment on how terrible my inputs looked; but I somehow managed to find consistency in combos and pressure. Tbh I though my I was schmooving. However… I couldn’t block high/low to save my life. It wasn’t my reaction times or understanding it was the consistency of getting a crouch block/stand block and not accidentally getting a jump. I got a hit box and now I’m trash AF, but goddamn am I consistent at defense. Another year of practice and I’ll be able to play at the same speed I was before lol.

[@f1r3hunt3rz5]

Me, a keyboard player cuz I have little money: _"I'm four parallel universes ahead of you."_

[@epicon6]

Arcade stick is the most interactive and fun way to play for me even though it's not technically the best and i will never switch even if i will lose some games because of it because i got into fighting games growing up in Japan and arcade sticks made and still makes the experience magical.

[@1fareast14]

Surprised that split ergo keyboard hasn't become more popular, beats the hell out out of flat buttonbox

[@Kanoa99]

FOUND MY TRIBE 😂

[@Kanoa99]

converted my obsidian into hitbox and my wrist does not agree, mapped the hitbox layout onto my sofle keyboard and everything peachy, my final destination is the ergobox! trust me in a few years more hitbox players will start complaining about wrist issues!

[@yumbream]

ergodox gang

[@colbyboucher6391]

Yeah, I have an Atreus and I love how portable it is, but isn't the main problem that tournaments aren't run on PC so if you play local you're sort of screwed?

[@absoul112]

That Amazon box is the most terrifying thing I’ve seen. I love it.

[@balakknightfang3454]

This is a great and informative video and I always enjoy seeing what new drama these "cheaters" stir up. So, as a keyboard player, this conversation is super interesting to me because it has no actual impact on me overall because I'm a keyboard player, and well, sajam described that plight perfectly at 2:47, made worse by the fact that I have a custom input setup: I play "left handed", with my left hand handling the input buttons and my right hand managing the motion inputs. This has also resulted in me being even further guaranteed to never go to an in-person tournament since hitbox doesn't actually sell a left handed version. So as a player, I always find myself looking at this and going "wow, these are cool, but wow this doesn't actually impact anything but I love the arms races" But I also work in game dev, and I find myself thinking about 7:35-7:49 and just finding myself annoyed that, in 2022, there are games that just don't think to handle this or handle it uniformly within their own game. And that, if that oversight went through, they haven't gone and fucking patched it to be consistent. Like, c'mon guys. But then again, fighting games and basic features. I also think it's super interesting that the limit is single-input rather that double and would love to just see what a two-input limit would result in and how much of an impact it'd have. All that said, anklegator has certainly given me some ideas and something deep inside calls to me to make a custom one so I can maybe someday spend entirely too much money going to a tournament and going 0-2 in every bracket I enter but having a blast the whole time anyways Edit: You know, thinking on it, my left-handed setup may actually be perfect for newcomers to a game like project-L, where they may well be coming from league and are used to using the buttons on the left being the ones that do their abilities and then moving with their right hand, even if it's normally via mouse.

[@nef36]

People make their own sticks all the time, you could just make your own left handed hitbox by putting the acrylic on backwards after the holes get cut out.

[@redmagebr]

You can rest easy with the game dev angle. For a logn time, games have thought about this and handled it uniformly within their own game. I'm surprised you haven't noticed it, being a keyboard player yourself: SF4 handled SOCD by giving priority to the last button, SF5 handled SOCD by giving priority to Up and Forward, GG handles it by going to neutral (on both axis). They are uniform within their own game, there simply isn't a global standard on the dev side (capcom ended up creating a standard with their tournament rules though). In fact, I don't think we've had games that break on SOCD since the PS3.

[@balakknightfang3454]

@@redmagebr That's good to know, at least. And I don't know that I've ever actually taken the time in the one fighting game I play consistently (GGST) to test the SOCD.

[@DesZac]

Mixbox Arcade offers a version of their Wasd + arcade layout in southpaw, called Mixbox Reverse. Also with how basic stickless are in most cases it should be as simple as flipping the plate (not for official hitbox arcade cause the plate is part of the chasis I will say though).

[@morganite123]

I play in the exact same way you do, keyboard with right hand handling motions. Was told I was crazy for both

[@theintrinsicnerd6977]

"'lowkey leverless players don't block.' I agree" wow I feel called the fuck out right now

[@DisappointedBuddha]

The interesting thing about keyboard is that movement isn't the issue (WASD) it's actually the eight other buttons for your right-hand. It's very easy to experience cramping of the hand in the first hour, and if you remap them to make it easier you have to keep your hand positioned the same way hours on end. It's very micro muscles intensive for the right-hand, essentially

[@Anklegator]

Fgc boomers will look you dead in the eye and say pick a top tier, then plug in their fightstick💀🕹🤡 Mom Im on FGC Opera, ive made it

[@sloom--]

On leverless it's not rare for me to straight up lose a game for missing a DP or Half Circle input and then getting hit with an 80% combo for it. Leverless is faster if you're a perfect human, but I feel like the consistency of stick inputs is being slept on in games that are less forgiving on diagonals. Consistency wins more games than tiny optimizations. Overall they both get similar results and I hope people can get over it; if owning a stick is a barrier to getting into fighting games it will limit the scene's growth

[@hickknight]

I actually have an arcade stick and use it while playing fighting games, because I'm worried I'll destroy my thumb again. Mostly for ergonomical reasons.

[@WatarouDesiderus]

Having played pc gaming for close to 10 years now I tried playing stick and pad and after trying hitbox and loving the layout I got me a evo mpress. The mechanical switches just complete me reminding me of playing on keyboard. Honestly im worse off then I was on stick with stuff but Its way more comfortable.

[@MadMax22]

Exactly Hitbox movement is almost the same as a keyboard. Would people ban Keyboards?

[@tukoijarrett9155]

Ok but imagine how more accessible we could make the scene by making custom controllers like this more standard

[@colbyboucher6391]

You know what I'm surprised I haven't seen more yet? Foot pedals.

[@Seydaschu]

The only controller-building experience I have was building an arcade control panel for a future MAME machine. Y'know, something with a trackball and a spinner on it. In this context, it isn't about what's best for gaming, it's nostalgia-feel. No tiny Japanese zero-force buttons, we need period-accurate clicky garbage! Which also means digital 8-way sticks. Does your game absolutely need analog sticks? Well, let me get my XBox360 pads in, then... haha, I fooled you! I only brought in those pads so we can play 6-player X-Men!~

[@mikejonesnoreally]

Six player X-Men would rock. :3

[@rookbranwen8047]

Swapped to a keyboard style controller recently, as you said some things are harder others are easier than with my old stick. The one I have is also compatible with ps4 and is way smaller and more portable than most sticks are. Being able to rebind the buttons however I want is very helpful.

[@TonyTheTGR]

Fun fact about "The Slide" KoF 2003 *LITERALLY* made the command for Ash's install super deliberately with this in mind. It works on KoF XI, XIII, and XV too!

[@MacMens0100]

this feels like people are just obsessed with the sanctity of arcade sticks like as a TO would you actually ban dualshocks from your tournament cause they can do more

[@Hype_Incarnate]

Meanwhile you have Aris still thinking about hitbox is cheating.

[@bobsaget3548]

It is cheating.

[@BinBintheRiceCake]

First Aris now Sajam? Leverless controllers must be making waves right now!

[@deice3]

I think an RC radio controller with a dance pad is the future, once you master this combo you will have an competitive advantage you wouldn't believe! For real though, all controllers have some things slightly easier and some things slightly harder. Most viable control schemes can do anything you want with practice. Just play with what controller you like.

[@trippersigs2248]

If I'm being totally honest the "Skill" portion of this argument will probably never matter to me because I don't think I'm gonna be in the percentile of people who its ACTUALLY effects. BUT I will recommend people who can afford to; experiment with different controller types. I started on pad with SFIV and I've always had problems with fast repetitive moments on my left thumb(Shoryukens and dqcf for example), but I'm a kid button-mashing anyway so I don't really care. Years later I'm playing Xrd. I buy myself a stick just cause I was curious and see one for pretty cheap. I prefer it over my controller(for my right hand), but things feel awkward with my left hand Still. I start playing Strive, and I'm having the most fun I've ever had in a fighting game, I'm putting time into actually learning. I really like this game, BUT I can still feel the awkward movement in my left hand. The worst part is that I now care and I can FEEL how the movement I need to do with my left hand is tangibly affecting my gameplay( I would not pick certain characters, or use certain combo routes because of it, and If the game didn't have a dash macro I probably wouldn't even play it.) but now, I care. So I start experimenting with controller types. First, I do keyboard. I really like it but I don't want to play on something with sea keys cause I'm generally clumsy and ill press the wrong button or something. Then I try a hitbox(micro specifically) I like it ALOT but I have very minor nitpicks, so I try MixBox. It's FUCKING PERFECT it is exactly what I needed it to be. It is how I will always play fighting games and I can feel the improvement from it because it doesn't feel awkward to me anymore. TL: DR you probably shouldn't get a stick just because you think its will "up your level", but if you're able to, id recommend experimenting around if you can. There are a ton of ways to mode sticks into various types of controllers for relatively cheap if you know where to look.

[@epicon6]

Game mechanics will adapt to new controller types in the future. Current games were developed arcade stick/pad in mind but they can easily change the mechanics simply by limiting the fastest possible input speeds closer to what's possible on a stick and that will stop all impossible moves that the game wasn't developed for. I'm not sure if it big changes will make it to Tekken 8 but for sure it will already adress impossible on a stick quick input moves and mechanics in some way.

[@masterofdoom5000]

Sliding my arm across my entire keyboard to do my ToD, hell yeah.

[@semantik95]

Doing it from the other side is actually one of the better arguments for a crossup that I've heard.

[@TheOblomoff]

I got a fightstick a week ago. My god does it feel so much better than a keyboard with ghosting. Not getting angry at dropping inputs anymore. That's it, just wanted to share.

[@hack2true]

Following the logic people apply to hitbox top tier characters should be banned they provide a clear advantage over the lower tier characters.

[@Copperhell144]

Mirrors Only Tournaments

[@juiteko8375]

Image Ram mains doing 10 consecutive rekka cancel in a row by sliding through buttons

[@Zachiderp]

Haven't watched yet but that thumbnail is godlike

[@warriorminktribe2059]

At the end of the day, I just want to watch great sets

[@barbedwings]

Old decrepit hands actually benefit from stickless controllers. Most of the older FGC players I know have moved to them for wrist/arm issues.

[@conanbdetective]

After playing on all those, pad felt the best for me. Factor in portability and availability... it's almost a no brainer. I can walk up to a Best Buy or Gamestop to get what I need easily. To me though, Hitbox and its derivatives take the best of the pad and the worst of the stick. Have to lug it around for around 6 hours can be exhausting as it's oddly heavy. Although there's nothing more satisfying than using an arcade stick. The sensations go through the body

[@buff00n3ry]

I'm picking up stick for the times I visit a place with cabinets. That way I can hop in on the fun.

[@CrispyGFX]

Getting a Snack Box Micro in Oct My first no-stick controller (besides keyboard)

[@DSKBR556]

guile being able to dash/backdash while holding charge is huge also socd's nuts

[@yumbream]

that's only possible on older street fighters where simultaneous opposing directions don't cancel out to neutral, but yeah when it's possible it's fucked

[@theexaltedlt8222]

That's only in older games. Modern games don't allow that

[@blade6321]

I grew up playing fighting games on a keyboard. Switching to a hitbox was a godsend, with almost no downside or adjustment time!

[@griishaus8300]

i love using a hitbox because i love the feeling when the blood vessels in my hands explode

[@loudnoises5372]

That has nothing to do with hitbox controllers. I am sorry to inform you, but it would appear you have a serious case of Ligma. My condolences.

[@Diyomaro]

Each method has its pros and cons, but it's all about preference at the end of the day. I grew up poor, and what little money I had for Vidya, I wasn't gonna spend it on fighting games. I would rather go to the arcade. Because of that, I was always shit with a gamepad in most Fighters

[@Eval999]

Melee player here, I think its wild fighting games don't limit controllers to one button per input like we do. The monstrosity that guy made would be the literal first thing I would think to do if that wasnt limited.

[@deice3]

I don't see why this needs to be limited. If some guy wants to spend his time soldering a controller instead of grinding in training to do the combo with a normal controller, I'm all for it. Its a different type of skill, but he isn't able to do anything you can't do on any "normal" controller. And if you did learn to play this way, you'd need a different controller for every game. Maybe even every patch. Its a novelty, not a threat.

[@danielwitt1793]

@@deice3 Tell me you've never practiced kBMF loops without telling me. Even the best pot players drop them fairly regularly. So no, its straight up a macro replacement because skill isnt whats holding them back lol. If you dont believe me please go try it out for yourself in training mode.

[@deice3]

@@danielwitt1793 who's to say the guy with the pizza box doesn't drop them regularly? He still has to time his swipe. I still just don't see any reason why manually pressing buttons (1 button = 1 input) should be banned. Its definitely nothing like a programmed macro with AutoHotkey or similar.

[@1JokeRCSS]

@@deice3 its more so that fact that a hitbox can be configured so that both left and right are pressed at the same time, and that you can set it so one of them takes priority. If you cant see why that shouldnt be banned then youre a lost cause

[@TheBigSad8247]

@@1JokeRCSS that's the games programming issue. Not the controllers fault. At worst, hitboxs are able to use exploits. Stop blaming the wrong thing.

[@davose8756]

Man I love the dragon punch shortcut on lever less

[@himzi1]

Controller debate will alway be there in gaming for some reason

[@madslingshoter1074]

Another fun thing to add about arcade sticks in the controller debate is that the standard arcade stick is actually left-handed, not right-handed. Apparently, it is because more people are right-handed, so arcade owners could try to limit more people in order to squeeze out a few more coins. A good comparison would to think about how you would hold a guitar and how that would translate to a stick. You use your dominant hand for precision movement and the other for "button" presses. Even a mouse and keyboard puts the button presses on the less dominant hand and the precision movement on the dominant one. However, there are arguments to be made for fighting games that the button presses require more precision and rhythm than moving the lever does. It just comes down to what feels good to use.

[@rxzero00]

I guess that makes sense why I actually like using an arcade stick. I may write and do many things with my right hand but there are various times when I prefer using my left hand. Apparently I started writing with my left hand but my kindergarten teacher made me write with my right hand.

[@Mario_bland]

Video comes out right when snackbox micros are all sold out :/ Seems like alot of arcade parts are out of stock too.

[@moogleBdead]

Snackbox arcades is really active in their discord. I’d recommending adding yourself to it because they send notifications when they are back up! That’s how I got mine.

[@CrispyGFX]

They were in stock like 3 days ago. I might have ordered the last one in stock... Sorry.

[@SupermanSajam]

Yeah most places will go in and out of stock because they are hot items. You can probably ask on social/discord like somebody asked for a time they will restock

[@Mario_bland]

Haha thanks all! I'll just keep myself on the waitlist and keep just mashin on that keyboard (I just liked the idea of playing with a keyboard but with bigger buttons)

[@gamekyuubi42069]

@Sajam @7:42 the problem is the hardware from the beginning never had the option to simultaneously input opposite directions so the entire genre formed around that limitation. The games don't know what to do because they've relied on not needing to know what to do in that situation.

[@theconsolekiller7113]

Chef Throws Ceasar Salad In The Trash. Turns Out He Tossed The Wrong Salad

[@joeschmoe4376]

The wiring actually made me flinch

[@redmagebr]

Keyboard-style is objectively better on account of removing a thing that no amount of training can remove: travel time. There will always be stuff that's easier or harder on all inputs, but only stickless controls have the minimum amount of travel time. Should take another decade before we actually start seeing them all around, though. People tend to keep playing whatever they first used, and most players either played with controllers on console or with sticks on arcades. With arcades phasing out and fighting games starting to get simultaneous releases on PC, we might be seeing players who developed themselves on keyboard first for the the next generation - those should gravitate towards hitboxes if they decide to compete. But the hitbox "cheats" are really just a marketing gimmick and are not really useful on actual matches. In some cases you might abuse SOCD for precision (Like making sure you hit 6P coming from 2, but avoiding a special on 236P - by inputting 286P you go back to neutral on the Y axis and get a clean 2 -> 6P that works every single time without fail, no accidental fireballs). Tbh a lot of these tricks are really fast, but if they're too complex to execute it ends up not being worth it. Personally, I'd love for hitboxes to move away from these gimmicks design-wise and focus on improving ergonomics instead. The only reason I don't use one is because I'm not doing flash kicks with my right hand, I don't want my hands to touch each other just on the off-chance that I want to be able to do flash kicks one frame earlier outside of buffer windows (and on buffer windows you'll always do it on frame 1 regardless). If people *really* need a huge advantage, they should just dump their money on a gaming chair instead. You never lose when your gaming chair is more expensive than your opponent's (which is why on tournaments both chairs are the same brand and model).

[@third-ratedude4234]

As a keyboard player, l never find the need to use any of these SOCD shortcuts. Sure it's more consistent and faster, but l find it feel less intuitive than just inputting f, d, df

[@genejas]

286P on a hitbox will give you a jump tho

[@redmagebr]

@@genejas On default SOCD, probably. Guilty Gear's own SOCD defaults to neutral, and Hitbox should have SOCD cleaning modes (if not as a button, as a firmware option). The most interesting mode is Last Priority - whichever direction you pressed last wins. I think capcom banned this kind of SOCD cleaning for tournaments. Then there's the "normal" SOCD cleaning, which is L+R=N, but Down+Up = Up. And lastly there's just SOCD = Neutral. SF5's inner SOCD cleaning defaulted to L + R = F (an entire new button). Guilty Gear Strive likes to go back to Neutral (and I think even as far back as XX this was the case).

[@redmagebr]

@@third-ratedude4234 Some of the shortcuts are really good. The DP shortcut is not just useful for consistency and speed, it's outright easier to do - if you're holding down you can just double tap forward and hit. The other SOCD tricks are very unintuitive and definitely annoying. SOCD instant dashes feel terrible, but they are considerably faster. SOCD to make sure you go straight from Down to Forward is very helpful for command normals that share a button with a qcf special. Honestly though? I've played on keyboard since SF2 first released on PC and I'd rather just input the commands as they are supposed to be, no tricks. The pianoing for specials is very important for the feel of the game. Optimizing that far would ruin the fun and I'll intentionally steer away from characters who demand these things to be optimal, or avoid a fighting game entirely. If it ain't fun it's not worth it.

[@genejas]

@@redmagebr 2323 DP is not an socd shortcut, it's been in street fighter since street fighter 3. It also works with stick

[@discounthero9972]

I'm really glad you said to think about hand comfort. A lot of these different devices are someone's disability tool.

[@Thatonedude227]

I play stick because hehe stick make noise and feel good. It pleases my monkey brain

[@bt_11]

Makes sense that stick would trend out. Fighting games are the only genre that are married to the controller even outside of arcades. And sticks aren't necessary for directions in any genre.

[@mappybc6097]

Alpha build SF6 Ryu can already do shinkuu hadouken by pressing forward+ 2 buttons. Gief will be in the game as well, which means in SF6 you will be able to push one directional input+ 2 buttons to get his 720° super while standing. So this 4 frame forbidden secret technique is half a year away from being obsolete anyways.

[@bobhoskins-kl6ue]

I use pad for 2d games, I use mixbox for Tekken. I grew up playing SF2 and all the other games that came out back then on SNES and so I'll always be a pad player when it comes to 2d games. I can do DP on pad without thinking about. I can do motion inputs on my arcade stick and mixbox, but I'm slower and go from being able to do a motion input 10/10 times to 7/10. I have considered building a hitbox just to try it out. But just like you said I always tell people the most important thing is that your input device feels comfortable. You don't want to be thinking about or fighting against your input device while you're using it. It's like shoes, you don't want to actually feel your shoes on your feet, you want to forget they're there, if your shoes are constantly reminding you they are there something is wrong and you're probly gonna end up with blisters.

[@ItsTheRedKirby]

the wiring took me out. I was laughing for like 3 minutes.

[@Shiftaws]

Incase anyone finds it catchy, the song in the Potemkin part is a 8bit/midi rendition of Drone Corpse Aviator by Archspire.

[@elk2594]

You can straight up mod your stick into a hitbox with mechanical keyboard switches since all sticks are just four switches in a circle and arcade buttons aren't special you can just rewire them to keyboard switch. If you have trouble making a face plate to capture the switches, go to a local makerspace with a laser cutter and some acrylic. I found cast 0.06" thick acrylic works best for thickness tolerance. Some testing with rectangle sizes for the snap in switches and boom you can put the keyboard keys wherever you want. Makes paying for expensive arcade stick buttons unnecessary. The only issue might be SODC cleaning not being handled by the stolen control board but it can be easily swapped for a brooks board later if you like it.

[@colbyboucher6391]

Group B FGC here we go

[@GuyWithAnAmazingHat]

On the topic of people wanting to see superhuman olympics, I want to see a FGC tournament where people design the ultimate controllers where they swipe moves non stop, it might look more like playing one of those touchscreen rhythm games. Also olympics itself is pretty unfair in the first place, just look at basketball when the US team stands next to an Asian team, there's like a whole 1/2 foot height difference.

[@logandunlap9156]

sounds to me like a skill issue on the asian teams end

[@NLperso]

Anklegator is a pioneer

[@KyokujiFGC]

Pad's biggest disadvantage is still how much better stick/hitbox buttons are. There's no replacement for a set of 8 sanwa buttons. But the fact of the matter is that no controller is going to make more than like a 1% difference in whether you win or lose. Smug was winning tournaments playing with a 360 pad, which is maybe one of the worst controllers ever made for fighting games. At the end of the day, winning or losing in fighting games is mostly just decision-making. Most of the major execution advantages that Hitbox has only really matters with charge characters.

[@vegta1000]

Hard disagree with there is no replacement for sanwa buttons, Mechanical buttons are used on snackbox and M-press sticks are much bettter than the sanwa on the hitbox.

[@greatheightsu]

Ankle Gator is the messiah.

[@webweaver13s]

on the slide comment. People used to do that for honda hands. There was a local player in my area that did that and put tape on his finger to prevent injury.

[@logangardner3577]

The abbynormal Young Frankenstein reference. YES

[@Tryce014]

“why grind when you can slide” Sajam 2022 😂😂

[@dank-mayo8373]

After seeing all this 🥊 📦 controversy I’m deciding to just buy new buttons and a tighter spring for my fight stick.

[@yscg-4277]

Dude is literally playing the piano of fighting games

[@JackichigoTG]

i though the amazon box hitbox was a joke at first, Jesus lol

[@mnnaz05]

As someone who went out of their way to try each controller, lever less feels great due to the fact I am not destroying my hands to just to do 90% of my inputs. However, half circle back forward is now the bane of my existence. All in all a fair trade TBH, and now I can help people get mixboxes for budget prices.

[@ironboy89]

Do you know where to find budget mixboxes

[@Zman7981]

The Anklegator controller is hilarious but Anklegator himself plays Potemkin so degeneratively.

[@BLACKDISC]

I saw Anklegator's controller from the corner of my eye at my local a few months ago and almost passed out

[@theWIIISEguy]

The Anklegator box, is neccesary. Because it's pushing the limit of what we define as too far. Daigo said himself, in gest. Sometimes to enforce the rules, you should break them to start the discussion.

[@PSNMyfoot]

As someone that played on stick for 2 decades and recently started learning hitbox for fun… Both are good for different things. Sequential circular motions are much more consistent for me on stick. I have real trouble doing Yun’s Shoulder into SA3 on hitbox, while it’s a non issue on stick. 63214 is also more consistent for me on stick, and 360s seem impossible on hitbox. I haven’t played KoF on it but the KoF super sequences seem like they would be horrible on hitbox. That said movement, inputs on reaction, switching blocks, charge moves all feel much better on hitbox. As it currently stands for me, I switch between them depending on game or even character. Strive is hitbox only for me, 3S varies, Makoto is stick, Yun in stick, Ken, Chun and Oro hitbox… Edit: I play on pad occasionally, when I’m killing time on switch. I don’t think it’s a bad choice, it’s objectively not, but it hurts my hands more than any other option, so I avoid it whenever I can.

[@pablofsi]

Try an optical very sensitive lever arcade stick, it solves most of the issues you mentioned with lever.