LEVERAGE or GRAVITY in the Golf Swing? - Golf Test Dummy

[@bernardsamson2365]

Further to my comment below. Despite many instructors talking about pulling “down” it’s long been recognized that in a proper swing, one in which you maintain the width of the swing, the first movement of the hands is not downward but backward along the swing arc, away from the right ear (left ear for lefties) and away from the target. Ben Hogan himself described the start of this downswing this way: “I feel like I’m taking an arrow out of a quiver.” Stand in front of a mirror and imagine you were playing Robin Hood: you’re holding your bow in your left hand and you have a quiver of arrows across your back-they’re sticking up, visible just over your right shoulder. Reach back with your right hand and pluck an arrow out of the quiver. Do you pull straight DOWN? No, the arrow wouldn’t come out, it would get hung up in the quiver. Watch your hand as you pull the arrow up and out-you’ve seen the movies and know how it’s done. THAT’S how the hands move at the start of a proper downswing: getting the mass of the club moving along that arc, building momentum. And you don’t even have to pull the arrow hard if you do it right. A little tug and it’s moving on it’s own, building speed. The next thing you know, it’s whooshing past you. It feels like you’re doing nothing. Actually, you should be doing one thing: posting up and getting your left hip out of the way so your hands have room and you don’t interfere with that swinging mass. The onrushing club is a bull and you play matador by getting your lower body out of the way. If you think about it, that’s what pros look like at the moment of impact: getting their lower body out of the path of the onrushing club. Ole!

[@GolfTestDummy]

Holy hell.... The arrow out of the quiver thing.... Yeah, trying that when I get home. Best analogy in the history of man.

[@bernardsamson2365]

@@GolfTestDummy Don’t pull hard. Start it up and back and be prepared for the club to whip. I’m serious about this part: do it toward the sheets in your home-built range because with the light grip you might be taken by surprise. If you haven’t done so before, you may discover the real power of unimpeded angular momentum.

[@GolfTestDummy]

I'm pretty sure that this could relate to the video I made on right arm work. To pull the arrow, the right arm just extends.

[@golffit3066]

There's no question that you're right. I spent my teens and 20s in the gym. I've been heavily muscled my entire life (now getting covered in a covid layer insulation). I played with a super lean guy with tiny muscle density. He swings 5-8 mph faster than I do now and 12 more than I used to play when I thought muscling the swing was the answer. One of Shawn's videos had him explaining to a student "3 in effort and 10 velocity". Just screwing around at the range one day, I gave it a go. What an improvement! I still fight the urge to crush the ball with force but I intellectually understand the real play is soft supple and fluid through the ball into the target picture

[@vicreichle2931]

Agree 100%. I think anyone that plays beyond their 40's will eventually change their swings toward momentum with rotation. It simply maintains distance and is easy on your body.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Aches and pains are a great catalyst for change, LOL

[@swardmusic]

Rotation where?

[@James_Vaughn]

Assisted gravity seems to work best for me also. I wish I'd known that years ago, could've saved me a lot of effort, and some injuries.

[@GolfTestDummy]

That's the real point. Leverage is fine, when your body can apply a lot of it. But when it gets weaker, or injured, leverage won't produce as well.

[@Eric-zk2hu]

When you use gravity when your club (and your arms) are in the up position it is light so you can move it to where you can let it fall down thru the ball easily. Its kind of like when you balance a baseball bat with the butt end down you can move it around easily. From the club in a near vertical position you can swing it down to a steep or flat swing plane, if you use muscle and body rotation once you start turning the club is heavy and you can't adjust it. In rotational swing you have to have your spine angle a lot more precise more perpendicular to the swing plane or bent more. Once the club is moving and below your waist it is very hard to make adjustments to how it is swinging.

[@deanc8077]

Chad isn't C motion a leveraged swing? In researching it the leverage is not throughout the entire swing but mainly in the hands. I've been also looking at some videos by Michael Broderick. Seems both gravity and leverage driven. Im not endorsing either as I'm ok with gravity, however when I've tried the leveraged method of these formats my strikes are dead straight. Whereas my gravity swing has more variation to direction. Most likely due to a looser hand path. Would definitely like to hear your feedback on how Broderick is using C motion in his swing teaching. Thanks for all your vids love the content.

[@danamcqueen6982]

Exactly right Chad. Count Yogi had a great swing, could hit it miles, was built like a one iron (much like Tiger in his amateur days). There's no leverage in a true swing. There are people who can make leverage work for awhile, but the body well eventually break (much like Tiger in his recent years).

[@GolfTestDummy]

Exactly. Lots of fascination with speed, when MASS probably plays the bigger role.

[@barryread3672]

I've gone fully to a gravity based swing. I'm actually doing the Gravity Golf system. Did a lesson about a month before knee surgery in hopes I could get a handle on it prior to a long break due to rehab. I'm done with my PT and doing a follow-up with my surgeon tomorrow. Hopefully he gives me the go for full swing. Love this stuff Chad! When executed properly the swing feels like nothing. The hardest thing is letting go of that urge to "hit" the ball. Glad that you've seen the light, lol!

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks Barry, and glad to hear you're ready for take off!

[@lesmoore7613]

Man Chad...this video went from golf thoughts and feels to a philosophical debate quick....with assigned reading...hahaha...I'm with you on using gravity or momentum as much as possible...what ever the crap helps me swing the club as efficiently as possible with the lowest amount of stress and strain on my body....I am 12 years older than you and self preservation and longevity are key...keep doing what you're dong man....everything is coming together and this is going to be your best golfing year yet...and thanks for sharing it with us....

[@GolfTestDummy]

Les I hope you are right! I'm hoping for a great year. We just need to get through this 40 days and nights of rain...

[@lesmoore7613]

@@GolfTestDummy hahahaha.....yes you are so right.......Alabama is included in most of the country's deep freeze right now....but supposed to be in the 60's next week....good times...

[@pedroromerogolfcoach]

Yeah, i am a golf coach. Pretty good explanation mate.

[@bepassa12]

David Lee is the inventor of Gravity Golf. Give him credit.

[@mygolfquest2734]

Good stuff man as i am aging i have spent a lot of time using momentum and the larger muscles groups. My one swing thought is feel the club head if i can feel the weight through thr entire motion inknow im on plane and gravity going to work with me.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Feeling the weight throughout; Yes!

[@FrugalFixerSpike]

Will experiment tomorrow, my old body could use a break

[@kymstock1852]

I resemble those remarks about the older golfer. Busted shoulder from dirt biking crashes, sore back from years of leaning forward all day at work and possibly playing hockey. I found trying to use my muscles to power through with my hips as per golfing instruction, just left me with a torn gluteal muscle. The I found Shawn's, "Out of the way, Out of the way" approach and then JV's " keep still you fool" approach which saved my butt muscles from further damage. If you look at Gravity Golf, Shawn Clement or Jim Venetos, you ought to be able to find a momentum method that clicks for you.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Precisely!

[@miltontaylor7750]

Great video. I train a lot, but what I found out; very recently actually. With all the training and lifting I do, I'll never be stronger than gravity. I use gravity much more to my advantage. I just didn't have a name for it until I watched your video.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Great thoughts Milton. I've never worked out on a regular basis, but being strong and limber is still a great thing, even when we aren't trying to muscle the ball.

[@NickTWO111]

Cool food for thought. Hey where'd you get those blankets you are using as a golf net?

[@GolfTestDummy]

They are 12 oz. painter's tarps. Check out the video on I uploaded about 2 months ago and it goes through the process. 👍

[@j1238066]

Just curious if you have looked into Steve Johnston Eureka Golf ? ...slightly open stance , seems easier on lower back, creates solid ball contact,

[@GolfTestDummy]

I have, yes. I watch Steve from time to time and he makes great content.

[@BroncoYeller]

If a skinny girl on the LPGA can hit it 270 with a true gravity swing, why shouldn't I be able to? I'm done with applying leverage. All it does is introduce pain into my body. When I swing with gravity golf, the swing is tension free. Good video.

[@marklombardo2238]

I use a combo of both methods. It works well and keeps u relaxed

[@GolfTestDummy]

That's a great approach.

[@Chris_Traynor]

I don't see this as a dichotomy of much other than one's chosen feels and intent. Both are happening. I definitely veer towards the feeling of letting gravity do the majority, but when I do, my club is still leveraging from loose wrists etc. Also encourages the club to work as close as possible to how it is designed to move. However, higher handicaps would'nt hit the ball enough to improve in the first place if they were just to feel gravity doing it. There's gotta be both to continue hitting the ball, improving and practicing. I do however believe that as players improve their swings, and focus their mind on the game more than their swing, they will increasingly feel gravity/ the club doing the work, partly due to more efficient motion but also as they are not necessarily proprioceptively aware of what they are doing with their muscles. I think this awareness is a big thing people don't talk about in golf, and that strength plays a huge part, but the kind of strength outside of your awareness, which renders it imperceptible. Kinda like -if you're a beginner you might lack strength in a golfing movement and so making that movement necessarily must be conscious. When you've strengthened that movement it will happen so easily that it will feel like you're not doing anything. From my experience as a gymnast, good gymnastic strength training is like this. With bad programming you will spend years trying to achieve a skill without succeeding and it will feel impossible. All it takes is a good coach to apply good programming and simple non-strenuous exercises that address a specific deficiency in your strength. Suddenly within a month you are able to do the strength skill and it LITERALLY feels like you are doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and you feel like you're just levitating off the ground without trying. It's a bizarre feeling! But it shows that if you don't have the strength (i use this term broadly) you will feel like you're doing a lot. If you possess enough strength it will feel like you are doing absolutley NOTHING, and like gravity is doing it for you. I'm not saying this is everything but noone seems to be talking about it, and it definitely plays an invisible role.

[@ronaldelkin124]

SIR,GTD......your work and effort are GREAT.....have you any feedback on OVERHAND GOLF and his HOLY GRAIL swing ???? THANKS, Ron

[@GolfTestDummy]

Thanks so much Ron. I have seen quite a bit of Overhand Golf and I've actually mentioned it in a few of my videos. He has a lot of great thoughts and helps a lot of people.

[@ronaldelkin124]

@@GolfTestDummy Have you tried it or do you plan to ????

[@GolfTestDummy]

I haven't tried it officially; No. I may give it a shot in the future on video, but as of right now, I don't want to corrupt what I have going. Stay tuned.

[@jeromebalbi9301]

I would pick up gravity as well ! For ONE good reason... No matter my age, the course I play, my clubs, my shape, my mind... Gravity is constant. Always the same. The best way, in my view to REPEAT the same shots over and over again. If you use your muscles instead, you need to be sure you put the exact same amount of energy every time to make sure you do the same distance. And that's not easy to do !

[@GolfTestDummy]

Exactly.

[@ulster7717]

Gravity speed. If your downswing was 32 feet ( for example) and was straight down the speed of the club would be just over 21 mph. Since the downswing is less than 32 ft and is at an angle gravity influence would be less. I am assuming you swing a driver in excess of 100 mph. So whatever else you are doing is making a bigger contribution than gravity. 😀

[@GolfTestDummy]

I honestly don't have a clue what my clubhead speed is with driver, haha. Everybody but me knows their Trackman data. Gravity's speed certainly isn't enough by itself. That's why I made the point that an "assist" or "boost" was needed. But rather than leverage canceling gravity out, if I apply some leg-driven assistance to the momentum, it propels the club at a high rate of speed. 👍

[@543whitey]

Gravity Golf they have a youtube channel

[@micmvp9074]

Mo Norman, C of Grav, Golden ratio.

[@fredpena643]

Still working on it just too much info out there

[@timmastersonsr1041]

have you been reading Manuel de la Torre

[@GolfTestDummy]

Haha, not READING, but I have watched him teach on video quite a bit. Love his stuff.

[@bernardsamson2365]

IMO, it’s not actually leverage versus gravity. I think it’s even wrong to speak of gravity. When people talk about gravity they really mean angular momentum, and in the so-called gravity swing they rely on building that momentum. In a muscled swing, that momentum is hindered by handle-pulling, i.e., the club travels linearly rather than in an arc. Muscle plays a roll in providing the force that accelerates the club. It’s basic science: F = MA or force = mass times acceleration. Bryson got stronger and can apply more force to the club to get it accelerating on a proper arc (he is a pro, after all, and his swing properly builds angular momentum). In initiating a downswing from a full backswing, the hands don’t pull “down” like people think. If Bryson’s hands pulled down, they’d go right through his right shoulder. Maintaining his width of swing, the first move of his hands is along the arc, actually backward along the ball-target line. In other words, his hands move away from his ear and further from the target. That force he uses starts the mass of the club accelerating along that arc, out and around and down toward and through the ball. The longer the swing (meaning the advantage of a full, big turn), the more time the club has to accelerate and thus build speed. So, in a proper swing, the use of muscle doesn’t pull the club off that proper arc (what people call off-plane). Most high-handicappers move their bodies and use their muscles in improper ways that pull it off that momentum-building arc. It’s the old knife on a string: pros swing the knife. Amateurs move their hands laterally and kill the knife’s arc.

[@GolfTestDummy]

Wow, I love all of that, and so true. In hindsight, gravity shouldn't have been my counter to leverage. Momentum instead. I did mention momentum often, and adding assistance to that momentum, which is started from gravity acting on the club and us in transition and free fall, or "levitation" at the top. But maybe momentum should have been stressed more than gravity in my comparison.

[@James_Vaughn]

Well said. Building angular momentum is a more proper way to describe what's going on.

[@morandifrancesco5219]

Leverage golf swing need have good tone muscles, specialy cores, glutes and abdominal for support the spine torsion. In my opinion not for every player. The gravity Is more body friendly specialy for senior golfer Like me🙂

[@GolfTestDummy]

Precisely, Morandi.

[@davidmcnamara3243]

As soon as you apply muscular force , you are moving the clubhead out of phase, with the rotating mass. Float the club up to the top and relax your arms shoulders and traps and your swing is done. Never have any intension to hit at the ball. Switch your analytical brain of and let your reactive subconscious brain , get you through the shot 😊

[@thomasfraser9072]

Hi Chad throughout our entire body we have several levers. Gravity is a natural force that is everywhere and if we had no levers on our bodies we all would be collapse under gravity and could not walk around on earth: let alone swing a golf club. So this being said we use all the levers in our body in order to create great forces for angular acceleration to the top of our backswing all the way to the “ downswing-level to the ground-upward swing to our finish. So you see the swing is angular acceleration against gravity using all the levers both major and minor throughout our body including the ones in our fingers in order to achieve an impactful golf swing and to overcome the forces of gravity right from the start of our swing to very finish of our swinging the club. Now should we ever give a second thought to all what I just said? Absolutely not! Just remember what you yourself told us to do: Swing the kid ( the golf grip) sitting on top of the swing ( the golf club) and simply let the ball get in the way. The angular acceleration and de acceleration back to acceleration results from the pivotal action of our body( Never swaying but always pivoting up /down/ up in your Shawn Clement Swinging of the club A great golf swing can never work with gravity it must fight it all the way. And I must say the more muscles and flexibility the further the swing as long as we all KISS 😃⛳️👍Cheers

[@barryread3672]

I disagree Thomas in that you're fighting gravity throughout the swing. You only fight it to get the swing into motion into the backswing. In gravity golf you give the club enough inertia, the heave, to break the force of gravity, and inertia/momentum takes the club to the top of the backswing. Then you allow your body to fall (counterfall) slightly backwards and simultaneously towards your intended target then it's a matter of using gravity by letting your arms drop and simply rotate. The key is to counterfall just enough to offset the forces of the weight of your arms and club moving in front of your body so that you stay in balance. David Lee calls it rotational equalibrium (sp?) I believe. Once you get the club into motion in the backswing you are using gravity and momentum to drive the swing not fighting them.

[@GolfTestDummy]

I don't feel like I fight gravity, but I do understand the concept of angular momentum to some degree. I think..... I feel a split second of weightlessness at the top when I make a good swing. In that brief moment, gravity pulls on the club and me to break the static, and then I catch up to the fall, and assist the momentum with my lower body.

[@thomasfraser9072]

@@barryread3672 never got the idea of the counter falling back on my downswing no matter how many videos of Gravity golf I have watched. If it works for you. I am not one to argue Simply put Gravity makes everything loose fall to the ground. If one were to simply allow their arms to fall from the top of their swing I think it would be impossible to know at what point to start the angular momentum of their swing. Not sure if you you caught or explore the kid on the swing analogy or not. If you are into Gravity golf I can see the analogy may not work for you. Cheers

[@thomasfraser9072]

@@GolfTestDummy very interesting and would not try to change a thing you are feeling as you are swinging your club back and forth. It does sound a little like gravity golf; but not exactly as I don’t think you are feeling a ‘falling back’ to the trail side at the top of your swing. Are You? I think what you are feeling is your swung the kid as high as you could on your back swing so you needed to let the kid fall down I bit before pushing him on the swing to the finish of your swing Your swinging the kid happens little later then mine; but not by much. For me your analogy hit the spot and I have not lost control of the kid. I am pushing the kid glued to the swing at the very top of my downswing and don’t stop pushing until the very finish of my swing. Cheers. Hope I made myself clear

[@GolfTestDummy]

That's a great thought. Don't stop pushing. I like that as a feel.

[@chrisgreene1456]

That first swing was a slice.. who needs track man :-).

[@GolfTestDummy]

Gambling at Bushwood is illegal sir, and I never slice..... 😂

[@bayougolf7524]

GTD Gravity golf ...a friend says it’s the best It can’t be easy to turn off your muscles and turn on gravity but if works it works

[@GolfTestDummy]

I should have tagged gravity golf in this video, haha. Love their stuff.

[@billglab9044]

Clement Kool aid been drunk!

[@GolfTestDummy]

And now I gotta pee....

[@billglab9044]

@@GolfTestDummy I wish I were so lucky, keep making great swings!