Karl Friston: Neuroscience and the Free Energy Principle | Lex Fridman Podcast #99

Karl Friston is one of the greatest neuroscientists in history, cited over 245,000 times, known for many influential ideas in brain imaging, neuroscience, and theoretical neurobiology, including the fascinating idea of the free-energy principle for action and perception.
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EPISODE LINKS:
Karl's Website: www.fil.ion.ucl.ac.uk/~karl/
Karl's Wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J....
PODCAST INFO:
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Full episodes playlist:
• Lex Fridman Podcast
Clips playlist:
• Lex Fridman Podcast Clips
OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
1:50 - How much of the human brain do we understand?
5:53 - Most beautiful characteristic of the human brain
10:43 - Brain imaging
20:38 - Deep structure
21:23 - History of brain imaging
32:31 - Neuralink and brain-computer interfaces
43:05 - Free energy principle
1:24:29 - Meaning of life
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[@lexfridman]

I really enjoyed this conversation with Karl. From the vodka and wine in the background to the mathematics of existence, life, intelligence, and consciousness, this was a truly fascinating experience. Here's the outline: 0:00 - Introduction 1:50 - How much of the human brain do we understand? 5:53 - Most beautiful characteristic of the human brain 10:43 - Brain imaging 20:38 - Deep structure 21:23 - History of brain imaging 32:31 - Neuralink and brain-computer interfaces 43:05 - Free energy principle 1:24:29 - Meaning of life

[@Maxjoker98]

It's super awesome that KZbin supports chapters now! Does it work automatically(You just write the comment), or do you need to enter the timestamps somewhere?

[@CPLains]

Love Friston! Happy you're finding all these geniuses Lex. :)

[@timkbirchico8542]

Lex read Richard Dawkins The Ancestors Tale. Also check immune systems.

[@timkbirchico8542]

Also The Extended Phenotype by Dawkins.

[@bhatkrishnakishor]

@@Maxjoker98 I noticed it too, but I am not sure if youtube is picking it up from description or if it needs to be tagged separately during upload. Nevertheless, truly appreciated feature, not that I will skip any chapter here 😊

[@brunoribaric9683]

That this is available for free is absolutely astonishing.

[@lukemackinnon5894]

That it's available for free and simultaneously relatively obscure and not widely publicised/circulated is immeasurably frustrating

[@user-xs9ey2rd5h]

So true, I have no idea how lex "just" gets in touch with such legends of their fields

[@zachm9705]

I'm a Lambda School student at the moment and Karl may be one of the keys to unlocking AI. I've unfortunately been burned by the higher ed system so self education once I'm done with Lambda is the path for me.

[@seandmello3793]

@@user-xs9ey2rd5h i think as much as Lex wants these big names, the big names want to break into the podcast scene. Getting into some "smaller" and niche shows allows the big guys to check them out.

Relativly free, you let the cookie get all your data for free.

[@JLGMediaProductions]

This IS the most incredible conversation I have ever heard. I don't have anyone to share it with that would feel the same.

[@jaichatha9894]

i feel the same mate! incredible

[@SamirPatnaik]

Same boat here too, brother.

[@Luboweb3]

That’s actually proof that you’re significant

[@wisefoolman]

I can relate to the frustration of discovering deep insides into reality but having nobody around to share it with that would be able to appreciate the significance of what you just learned

[@sophierogers2521]

Same!!! I'm unleashing my intellectual angst on an innocent notebook haha

[@johnerb4554]

Certainly one of the best, if not the best, of Lex's podcasts. Karl Friston introduced quite a few concepts that I would not have (and never could have) come up with on my own. Always amazed that Lex seems to absorb the ideas his guests present and come up so quickly with question that keep the conversation going.

[@randomousjam8590]

I liked particularly the discussion of self-awareness, the idea that the self enters into the world model.

[@eisenwerks6388]

Regular person: "You are interrupting." Karl: "Let me elecute the nature of your failure by first establishing the mathematical boundary functions of our relative beings and then evaluating the deficits in your generative model which led to this interruption"

[@mechachleopteryx1391]

Did you mean "elocute" or maybe "elucidate"?

[@yellowburger]

Nailed it! haha

[@tonym6566]

Man congrats on getting such geniuses to talk to

[@cerberusdest]

"There is no other way that you can change the universe, other than simply moving." This is one of the most beautiful encapsulations I've ever heard, it makes me teary eyed.

[@michaelweizenfranz4379]

Or we are just on a turbulent/diffusing surface of an oildrop in universe scale, trying to bootstrap.

[@raresmircea]

cerberusdest There is one way but you’ll need the collaboration of your environment. The sole way for the organism to communicate something besides things that involve muscle contraction is blushing. The organism blushing can make people act in certain ways.

[@cogoid]

AFAIK this idea was very clearly expressed in the book _"I of the Vortex: From Neurons to Self"_ by neuroscientist Rodolfo Llinas about 20 years ago. Absolutely the best delivery of it is in the beginning of Daniel Wolpert's great 2014 TED talk: _"The real reason for brains"_ -- highly recommended!

[@JLongTom]

I don't know what to say. Karl has been something of a hero of mine for about 10 years now, His papers are engrossing, lucid and deep, and talks of his I've attended have been admirably clear too, but he rarely gives interviews. And now this. I haven't even listened yet. This is one to save for a special hour and a half.

[@DarioVillirilli]

Really interesting the idea that we developed self-awareness to better interact in an environment that has a lot of copies of ourselves.

[@ericruleman6710]

🔥this take is fire

[@rashasalim1259]

Mind blowing moment!

[@DarioVillirilli]

I was so inspired by it that I made a whole video about it 😁kzbin.info/www/bejne/r2q6aomFn7KZmsk

[@yichaoliang5500]

First guest that matches lex’s dress

[@richardgordon7123]

I'm a former computer engineer and lifetime student of cosmology, origami, quantum computing, computing in general, ai, rocketry, anything that flies. Your podcasts are wonderful, but this one, for me, had the highest information density of any I've heard. It is a podcast that I shall return to listen to multiple times. Karl has an incredible depth of knowledge in both the millennial and the literal sense. He has a strong intuition founded on so many levels of abstract understanding packed in that brain of his, observing itself. I wonder how he would describe his feelings of his own consciousness observing his own brain functioning, such as trying to backtrace the chain of thoughts that lead to an important conclusion while being aware that your brain used an intuitive leap to get there. Anyway, thanks for these many podcasts with guests who are my personal heroes, but this one is a precious gem. Thank you for introducing me to Karl Friston, Einstein hiding in plain sight. It looked like you had fun and that somebody was ready for a Rogan-sized intimate party afterwards. Peace and love.

[@ThePhamnomenal]

This was one of the most incredible conversations I've watched and listen to.

[@jamesr2936]

This is the episode I have been most excited for! Surveying your other guests, it was inevitable. Friston is truly a pioneer - everyone should review, in particular, his mind-bending research on psychedelics which informs his theory of brain function.

[@Milkshakman]

To add some further details for anyone interested, start with Carhart-Harris & Friston 2019: "REBUS and the Anarchic Brain". It's a great look at the coming paradigm shift in neuroscience that will have major implications in many aspects; particularly in how we see ourselves in relation to nature. Exciting times ahead.

[@jakevikoren]

thanks for the tip!

[@adwaitkulkarni3567]

Thanks for bringing us all these amazing convos, Lex. Big ups! Guest suggestions, whenever possible: 1) Robert Sapolsky 2) Sam Harris 3) Andrej Karpathy

[@adwaitkulkarni3567]

@@Kobriks1 Harris has done great work in the philosophy realm. This podcast has always included people from different fields, & this suggestion is in line with that principle. My view, you might have other & I respect that

[@christopherbushinski6656]

Sam is an idiot.

[@tpal3243]

Yes Robert Sapolsky would be great!

[@davedouglass438]

@@tpal3243 A neuroscientist's complement to Prof. Sapolsky (one I've overheard with my own two ears): "We have only 90 minutes, so I'm going to confine myself to what I [emphasized] believe. If Robert Sapolsky were here, he'd tell you not only everything we know, but what everybody has BELIEVED, and where they got it.")

[@victoralmeida4955]

Robert Sapolsky is such an excellent suggestion

[@adityapradhan7201]

I was simply mesmerized. How beautifully did the discourse tie the topics of brain imaging, machine learning, existence and life. I am really thankful for the endeavour of posting such brilliant and thought provoking content Lex

[@jamesshelton7301]

Friston's analogy of weather patterns had me contemplating whether the weather could be terrestrial brain patterns of a sort, performing certain "neuronal" functions.

[@asmasarabenmoussa2517]

This podcast is a treasure. I really enjoyed listening to this guest. Thank you so much for doing this

[@kopfmann45]

I like how Friston occasionally throws a guiding question back at Lex. This is what old-style Oxbridge tutorial looks like: one-on-one conversation with the best in your field, a mix of lecture, talk, and questioning. The best system of education ever invented, too bad it does not scale well.

[@sculptor6167]

"You are your own existence proof" should be on a tee shirt :) Great conversation, as always, Lex!

[@SatyaKumarVadlamani]

Lex, thank you for being a medium for us to learn from such brilliant minds!

[@alpha.wintermute]

What a great interview! I love these topics they're so fascinating. Also, with good faith he also represented the weaker parts of his theory. This is the type of honesty you need to share important ideas and change minds, otherwise when ignoring the obvious the listener will always attempt to battle you and miss the point entirely.

[@dalibofurnell]

Thank you, Lex. Great tshirt idea: "You are your own existence proof" 👍 and I love the way Karl said "There is no other way to change the universe other than simply moving" - I found that to be quite profound actually. Very profound, I might even use it in conversation, it is life encouraging, hope giving and such a beautiful thing to say.

[@JakraSMourat]

This interview is sponsored by vodka Ruskyi Standart!! That explains the high quality conversation level.

[@metalcultofficial]

It is fascinating how Karl manages to bring up simple analogies to complex topics. It is an art by itself!

[@MrZzdannyzz]

Commenting on the question when does the collection of grains of sand becomes a pile. For me it seems reasonable that once you are unable to tell how many grains are there without manipulating them physically, you can call it a pile. If you can say the number of grains by looking but not touching them, it is the collection of individual grains.

[@HouseOfOuroboros]

Thanks a lot for this beautiful interview. On a side note, it's fascinating to see a genuinely happy person who is aware that he has already made a huge impact in science, which will continue to shape it for many years to come. That bottle of vodka and a friendly atmosphere of the conversation made my Markov blanket feel particularly cosy 🔆.

[@johnrobinson51]

I've been hoping you'd have this conversation. Thank you for an engaging discussion and all the content you produce.

[@jakevikoren]

Best interview yet from my humble perspective. THANK YOU LEX for all that you do and thank you Karl for your inspirational insight and elegance. What a time to be alive!!

[@TrustifierTubes]

Lex you are also kind and funny and such an amazing interviewer. I love watching your conversations.

[@contactpaulo]

That’s a conversation to be replayed several times! Thank you!

[@abdurrezzakefe5308]

I've been waiting for this episode since the beginning! Thank you Lex!!!

[@alexandercaines3358]

I cannot believe this interview happened. How great!

[@esakoivuniemi]

Amazing guest, facinating ideas, great conversation. Thank you Lex.

[@underpowerjet]

Once again Lex, you have interviewed such an amazing guest. Karl Friston is remarkable in his ability to explain difficult concepts of brain. I could listen to him all day.

[@susiana5]

Thank u so much 😍 I am a psychology student and for me these subject areas are so important and interesting. Thank you very much Lex, I love your videos and your content! I hope there will be more such great videos in the future 😁 stay safe and healthy ✌

[@hosinlau]

Finally got Karl Friston ! I have been waiting for this.

[@peterbenoit5886]

Every time I listen anew (with reading and research in between) I pick up more nuances. Quite a wonderful conversation!

[@robmas9007]

Really appreciate the timestamps Lex! Thanks for another great interview

[@DoubblePlusGood]

Another great podcast with another interesting guest, thank you Lex! Really enjoy filing my nerdy breaks with your podcasts.

[@logical814]

One should aspire to write as well as Karl speaks. A joy to listen to. Much respect to you both.

[@joselizano3363]

Amazing. What a genuine person, lot of information to process. Thanks Lex.

[@markcollins1577]

I am a bit surprised Karl Friston seems not to be aware of the hierarchy -- sparseness of connectivity -- that is apparent at the molecular level but elated that almost everything he says so elegantly applies to the molecular level which helps me immensely in my work. Rock on Lex.

[@nickcounter6254]

My fav episode yet! But I say that every new episode... Lex, you're killing it

[@juanaq]

amazing conversation, will listen it again for sure. thanks a lot.

[@evaunitzero1]

Lex, your conversations are real, beautiful and amazing thank you for being the most interesting podcast out there for scientific thinkers. I can't help but think how the free energy principle can be applied to the hard problem of consciousness, anyway I'm so happy you have this conversation with Karl. I would like to hear about your experience at Neuralink, I'm not sure if you took audio from that or not but it would be interesting to listen to a detailed summary from you. Keep it up dude, stay safe amigo

[@babaikazoboh4344]

This is beautiful. Almost like poetry in science. Amazing conversation chain and exchange, made better with each question progression, and really an absolute thrill to watch. Obviously need to play it back. Yeah, must set up an account and start paying for this. Thank you Lex! Thank you.

[@thelaw3536]

Only one word can describe this podcast: BEAUTIFUL.

[@trimbotee4653]

This might be my new favorite. Thanks Lex.

[@raresmircea]

Mindblown by your list of guests. You’re in a class of your own 👌

[@metabansolutions]

Thank you for this episode brother

[@bradwrobleski666]

Thanks for this Lex! I have been following Karl's work for years and this was a great interview! Great questions- great answers! Ever thought of interviewing Douglas Hofstadter?

[@alexbos8211]

Lex man, you are doing stellar work - please keep doing what you do!

[@david8157]

Excellent discussion with a genuinely gifted and learned scientist.

[@SambitPhD]

One of the best podcasts that I have ever heard!

[@NicoA47]

Just in time for writing the discussion of my thesis. ^^

[@tonyalex162]

Hi Lex, you have opened a new world for me.A big Thank you.

[@theowace]

Lex has such grateful guests and such a grateful audience. The signet of value that you are providing with this podcast is both manifest in the guest experience and the audience. This might be a conversation between two human beings/Aİ, but this podcast is an invaluable service to millions of people whose minds are in isolation, unable to resonate with their local environment. I can only say on behalf of my late grandfather, who I witnessed scavenging books for knowledge, that if he had access to Google, and to this podcast, he would have done absolute damages. Thank you so much for diluting some of the tik tok top ten twerking trash with some meaningful signal. God bless your journey my friend, and may the transhumans of the future look back on this podcast while looking at the same constellations that the orators of ancient Greece left behind for us. This life is a curious journey, but an infinite vector for meaning.

[@kelechistewart2133]

Lex, you are giving us truly revolutionary academic content.

[@korrelan]

Fridman + Friston was very enjoyable, cheers.

[@lukemackinnon5894]

That was wonderful to watch! I love Karl's description at the end there tying in the mathematics and physics of the FEP with the language of phenomenal psychology! This is an *exciting* time to be a blob!!

[@lukemackinnon5894]

Now go back and watch #85 kzbin.info/www/bejne/paOwpaqFr5t3mJI

[@neptuneandtheoak1445]

LOVED this. thank you very much.

[@ardeneques]

Fascinating interview, thank you.

[@allen_chu]

Lex, Please interview Yuval Noah Harari next. Thanks, KZbin

[@superimposition8665]

This is a tremendously insightful, provocative, and enjoyable conversation with a great mind. Coming from a philosophy background, I feel as if I caught up on recent scientific and computational perspectives on old questions in phil. of mind. If I may, can I suggest you invite on the inferentialist philosopher, Robert Brandom. He would be a perfect fit to complement this conversation with Friston, as well as your guest profile more generally. Keep up the good work!

[@silviopina_111]

53:02 Friston: “How would you describe things that can figure themselves out of nothing?” This follows his beautiful example of the autonomy of a drop of oil as a (my words) “stand alone entity that exists”. Way cool! ❤️I arrived at Karl Friston through Mark Solms, from his book “The Hidden Spring”. Not sure if Lex has interviewed him too, or if he plans to, I’ll check ...

[@plutophy1242]

frankly speaking that English is not my mother language , so it's really a hard time to adjust to Karl's lecturing style!!! but i really really really appreciate this conversation, i learned more than i could ever imagine!! really inspiring!!!thanks a lot! Buy the way this professor-student one-on-one style reminds me of my experience with my dear professor, it was a warm and exciting conversation.

[@Iriesu]

Amazing conversation

[@MichaelJChoudhury]

Fascinating!

[@asdf8asdf8asdf8asdf]

Around 1:21 or so. Need to distinguish (my)self from (your)self in a world populated by things-like-selves. This taps n BEAUTIFULLY to Jayne;s bicamerality breakdown (the left/right are, after all, at least proto-selves) and McGhilchrist's hemispheric observations about the 'battle' between the hemispheres (more kindly: 'interaction', or 'balance') as a phase of the overall system in developing a single coherent Self. Beautiful, powerful observation!

[@erdwuzz]

Thanks so much Lex. I literally just handed in my master thesis, leaning heavily on fristons work in my paper. I love the clarity and mathematic reduction of his approach. Where other thinkers have to rely on much cruder, headier symbols, free energy has a clean-ness to it that's fantastic. Also a very polite, calm and charming person, which in my mind always lends credence to theorists. I feel lke his way of thinking makes him a comfortable and approachable human being

[@cambridgebreaths3581]

Can you suggest few materials to understand the Mathematics used in Karl Friston FEP? Thanks

[@erdwuzz]

@@cambridgebreaths3581 I wouldnt know where to start, but theres a neat write up in nature which goes into a lot of it and is also fairly readable. doi:10.1038/nrn2787

[@cambridgebreaths3581]

@@erdwuzz thank you! Good luck with your academic career.

[@apester2]

Amazing conversation. Somehow I have only come upon Mr Friston's work now. Would love to hear him and John Vervaeke having a conversation.

[@I2yantheGreat]

i'm gonna have to watch this twice.. insanely intriguing.

[@PaulCarrero]

These videos are fantastic!

[@GrantBrennerMD]

Great convo. TMS transcranial magnetic stimulation is a standard Psychiatry treatment now.

[@Jay-zr2cm]

I have to listen to these at 2x speed, great show

[@TraditionalAnglican]

38:00-42:00 - Discussion on Neuralink - Neuralink is talking about completely changing the way BCI works - 10,000+ censors/transmitters vs. a max of 256, & 516 kbs-1 mbs vs. 3-4 kbs used in present BCI’s.

[@fbonde]

thanks Lex. Really nice Conv.

[@petermackinnon6546]

great episode man

[@mechachleopteryx1391]

If you enjoyed this conversation, you would probably also enjoy this article, which Karl Friston wrote in 2017: The Mathematics of Mind-Time aeon.co/essays/consciousness-is-not-a-thing-but-a-process-of-inference

[@woody7652]

Thanks, Lex!

[@rapisode1]

Lex, you're the man.

[@evasuit1]

cool feature putting the chapters in the scroll bar

[@danielulyssesbond341]

Excellent

[@hanselpedia]

Lots of interesting new ideas! Didn't understand everything, but I'll ask a larger Markov blanket for Christmas... Thanks Lex!

[@timurgolovinov]

Great interview! Would be fantastic to see Jonathan Wolpaw on this podcast!

[@ur-mom-gay]

i didn't understand half of the things in this ep but I enjoyed it regardless. I'll be back in a year or two and hopefully be able to understand this episode a little better

[@jackeasling3294]

1:20:45 Holy cow! Isn't that equivalent to Hegel's view about self-consciousness? That self-consciousness is a NECESSARY condition of social settings: awareness of other creatures? Furthermore, Friston's point at 1:23:32 is reminiscent of Hegel's view that self-consciousness depends on intersubjective recognition!

[@keylanoslokj1806]

whatever those guys say now, greek philosophers said millenias ago.... .

[@bencrossley647]

@@keylanoslokj1806 I'm sure they said lots about quantum phenomena.

[@ameerhamza4816]

@@keylanoslokj1806 That could be "hasty generalization" fallacy

[@keylanoslokj1806]

@@bencrossley647 quantum is a woowoo term conned by a parapsychologist not a a scientist. and its no difference than democritean atomism in its core. just smaller particles. atomism revamped.

[@CyrusLogie]

I'm actually writing my Bachelor's thesis on this subject. Neuroscience is going to be key in reuniting analytic and continental philosophy.

[@stoyanvelikov1718]

"You are Your own existence proof" !

[@PecPur]

just brilliant!

[@grahamjoss4643]

Great stuff

[@josy26]

Finally! Thanks Lex

[@ChaleyM]

Any books recommendations about neuroscience at the beginning lvl? 🤓

[@jorenboulanger4347]

very good talk

[@jladosky23]

I'd like to eventually see you bring on John Preskill

[@sebastianvaroncrews3634]

beautiful stuff

[@tommole645]

Delightful intellect!

[@jimmybolton8473]

Nice setting I like the office setting Karl😊

[@k.butler8740]

Wow, I didn't know about how blood allocation control was so fine tuned. Do we have a solid grasp of the control theoretic setup in the abstract?

[@freeunity]

when he is speaking about the ability to "generate" best path finding ideas, is he speaking abut LLM's/ ChatGPT? and are the AI autonomous agent's then the solution to create self awareness based on the memory of interacting with various agents, with the intention to optimise for free energy?

[@jonnykopp]

PLEeEAaase get Dr. Antonio Demacio!! I would love to hear him walk through his theories.