Chris Lattner: The Future of Computing and Programming Languages | Lex Fridman Podcast

[@lexfridman]

Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast. 0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions: - Blinkist: blinkist.com/lex and use code LEX to get a free week of premium - Neuro: www.getneuro.com and use code LEX to get 15% off - MasterClass: masterclass.com/lex to get 15% off annual sub - Cash App: cash.app/ and use code LexPodcast to get $10 2:25 - Working with Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Jeff Dean 7:55 - Why do programming languages matter? 13:55 - Python vs Swift 24:48 - Design decisions 30:06 - Types 33:54 - Programming languages are a bicycle for the mind 36:26 - Picking what language to learn 42:25 - Most beautiful feature of a programming language 51:50 - Walrus operator 1:01:16 - LLVM 1:06:28 - MLIR compiler framework 1:10:35 - SiFive semiconductor design 1:23:09 - Moore's Law 1:26:22 - Parallelization 1:30:50 - Swift concurrency manifesto 1:41:39 - Running a neural network fast 1:47:16 - Is the universe a quantum computer? 1:52:57 - Effects of the pandemic on society 2:10:09 - GPT-3 2:14:28 - Software 2.0 2:27:54 - Advice for young people 2:32:37 - Meaning of life

[@gregorycurley7649]

Thanks Lex

[@yt-sh]

Thanks Mr Fridman

[@yt-sh]

Can you do more Steve Jobs & Elon Musk related podcast, like talk to Jony Ive(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive), internal Creative/Technical works in Apple, Tesla etc Thanks

[@nejm612]

Thanks

[@coreyw6634]

Hey Lex really appreciate the time stamps, extremely helpful to find certain points of the conversation I find really interesting (everything is interesting)

[@ChrisOffner]

*"It turns out if you ask a lot of dumb questions you become smarter really quick."* - Chris Lattner

[@OghamTheBold]

I got AI (Awesome Insight) when ask-king _Economics Discord_ folks - What is _Heterodox Economics?_ My *quick* banning still does *smart* - It was a lot of 1 dumb question as their rules forbid discussion of it *one* later found to my dismay

[@TheGreatBlackBird]

""It turns out if you ask a lot of dumb questions you become smarter really quick." - Chris Lattner" -Chris Offner

[@cowofdeath777]

this is my exact experience

[@MissEviscerator]

Haha, med school 101. The accompanying public humiliation also makes it harder to forget (in a nice way).

[@josephwong2832]

The concept of "dumb question" itself is stupid. If you have a question, ask it as soon as possible so you're unblocked to think beyond that!

[@kylekermgard]

I love the more technical hard computer science and hardware guests. Please do more 🙂

[@blancobricks306]

Hey from the ghurjut youluytrttdyg

[@louis3195]

I prefer compound knowledge

[@krishna_o15]

yeah more system oriented core guys and gals.

[@inception252]

im kinda sad, cant find michael and someone on his podcast it only has 11min in lex clips

[@mattizzle81]

True, no BS, just a practical point of view.

[@vert2701]

Lex is quickly becoming my favorite podcaster

[@mcnallyaar]

He's I think mah number 4 or 5. I need to make a proper list.

[@JetLee1544]

My first now, what else do you suggest?

[@vert2701]

@@JetLee1544 sam harris, eric weinstein and sean carrol

[@sosukearnold6123]

@@JetLee1544 Joe Rogan his podcast is very general tho

[@kdot9527]

agreed he's def rising the ranks for me.

[@1337voltronBOT]

Don't ever change, Lex. The terrors of our world have blinded and twisted many of our perceptions. But the love and passion you share with your podcast is a shining light in the darkness of 2020.

[@bautistabaiocchi-lora1339]

Chris has been one of the most clear and well thought guests yet. He has a way of breaking down problems into simple pieces. Hope to see him back soon, he has a lot of wholesome wisdom to share.

[@MissEviscerator]

The 'advice for teachers' comment brought a tear to my eye. It's early morning and I clearly have my guard down, but these interactions, and often lack thereof, influenced my life deeply as I grew up. I appreciate the 'real talk' from you, Lex, and I hope that some of the teachers out there reflect on this; it could be life-changing.

[@motivationforbreakfast]

"So much of language design is about trade offs and you can't see those trade offs unless you have a community of people that really represent those different points. " Chris Lattner (I ❤️ him.)

[@guitarpick335]

Aren't tech nerds fun to listen to... I'm a retired programmer and loved this. Thanks Lex and Chris.

[@insertoyouroemail]

Why did you retire?

[@chrismackay9268]

I am a Software Engineer currently and really enjoyed this too, I am in awe at the depth of knowledge Chris Lattner has.

[@joey199412]

@@insertoyouroemail Not him but the field of software engineering is really stressful and you make a lot of money which means you both want and can retire early which is why a lot of people retire from the field in their 40s or 50s to dedicate more time to other hobbies that are less stressful. Over someone's lifetime the software world changes a lot and you're constantly expected to keep up with every development and crunch your projects. Human bodies can't really stand that as long as other fields which have a more consistent workflow.

[@insertoyouroemail]

@@joey199412 thank you for your insight!

[@Hexanitrobenzene]

@@chrismackay9268 Yeah, he is not afraid of trying new and hard things and being in "learning mode". Also, as he himself said, he has a rare ability to find first principles and unifying vision in a messy domain. I imagine such people are awesome to work with, but in a way, they are also somewhat scary :), because they *will* challenge you as well.

[@Thadnill]

I like how this video is over 2 hours long, has been out for 13 minutes, and is flooded with comments already

[@motivationforbreakfast]

His smile is so comforting.

[@Hexanitrobenzene]

Yeah, that particular smile with half-closed eyes :) For example, 24:15 "...you can call malloc() if you really want to call malloc() !" with those hand movements rofl :) I imagine he is a cool person to work with.

[@deleted01]

@@Hexanitrobenzene His squinting smile reminds me of Ben Shapiro. I know-different personas, but the physical resemblance is striking

[@khronos142]

Chris seems so happy, intelligent and passionate, I would love to work with someone like him someday.

[@fusionfile]

43:20 I think the noble goal of a programming language should be to encourage comprehensible solutions rather than quick solutions.

[@MattLuceen]

Lex, you are an awesome human. Joscha Bach, again, please! Talk about Wolfram’s physics! 🤯

[@lexfridman]

Yes, for sure, we'll make it happen many more times. Joscha is great.

[@Sonofsol]

The Joscha Bach episode was the greatest of all time. I can’t wait for the sequel!

[@shoubhikdasguptadg9911]

Lex I am dying to see Geroge hotz Part 2, I beg you , pleaseeeee!

[@tunnelsloth5948]

@@lexfridman Bach has his own quantum mechanics theory that's similar to Wolfram's in many ways, and specifically has a bet running that quantum computing will never actually be superior to classical computing. (Wolfram seems to be in a similar camp but left the door open, on his last podcast appearance.) Would be interesting to get his thoughts on that, even if it's not his domain of expertise.

[@andrewroberthook3310]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pqnFh4JmhdJ7q9E

[@angelsancheese]

What I learned from this podcast is I need to smile more often like Chris Lattner

[@genericusername1243]

yeah this is what i needed early in the morning , "the following is a podcast..."

[@MeticulousTechTV]

Wow, this guy is incredible. He has a huge depth of knowledge on so many areas of computing and conveys it simply to the listener, amazing podcast

[@danialhaseeb1909]

"The Universe is a compiler." - Chris Lattner, 2020

[@gavtronics]

"penis" -me, today

[@salman8562]

FAXX

[@anatalelectronics4096]

The universe is a virtual machine, not sure who compiled it me 2022

[@shatley123]

You should TOTALLY get Jonathan Blow on and talk about the programming language he is making.

[@mattshubat]

YES PLEASE!!

[@atmatey]

That would be awesome! He is one of my idols and his games are some of my favorites of all time.

[@steveoc64]

Seconded, that would be good. Jai is not opensource at all ... but interesting ideas still, worth a chat.

[@Casevil669]

Yes please, Blow is a deep thinker.

[@charlesrosenbauer3135]

Jonathan Blow would just be an amazing guest in general.

[@joshadams8761]

I’ve been a Swift developer for 5.5 years. It’s a fantastic language.

[@linemanlovesyou859]

holy shit i have never understood a conversation less. Beautiful Lex!

[@keirawatterson6137]

Lattner interviews are the best. He's the rare combination of elite engineer and elite communicator.

[@Ke_Mis]

This podcast was a blast! You two have a great dynamic!

[@ninadesianti9587]

Thank you, Lex, for interviewing amazing people! I struggle to listen to the whole interview, especially when discussing different programming languages, compilers, etc. I got lost. But Chris Lattner is such an inspiration. Converting self-doubt, inadequacy into fuel to learn more that's amazing! Like Yuval Noah Harari said, our generation should "build a tent," so we must always be ready to move from one job to another, acquire new skills, and constantly learn.

[@Lumcoin]

I love the wholesome feel of this interview.

[@SHONNER]

1:04:58 I used to program in FORTRAN. Wrote Star Trek games on an IBM 4361 back in '87.

[@oldcountryman2795]

You sure you didn't just get the Super Star Trek source code and start modding it? '87 is pretty late to the game.

[@SHONNER]

@@oldcountryman2795 Before then, I was playing around with Star Trek variants from the early '70s using HP-2000's BASIC.

[@Meowhsss]

We will always remember his winning shot he hit while playing for Duke in the National Championship

[@zzej]

Stack overflow could train an AI that integrates with your IDE and gives you possible solutions while debugging.

[@dankoni]

good idea 🤓

[@zzej]

@@user-ol5bj4dm2v there’s not much to it really. Just search for the error message and return the top 3 rated answers for now.

[@excitedbox5705]

@@user-ol5bj4dm2v Kite uses ai to figure out which function you are most likely to use next. I am actually researching something along the lines right now. You need to teach a computer to understand the problem and break it into smaller pieces. I am using a mix of supervised learning and expert knowledge for training. For generative NN there are a bunch of methods like multi parameter optimization, attention, genetic, convolution etc. I want to make a circuit designing AI so I need to teach it with a bunch of basic circuits and parts to understand what pieces are used to make them and then it can try to optimize them and combine them to build larger pieces. It needs a DB of parts and their attributes such as input and output voltage and which pin does what. In addition to price and lots of other stuff. For the optimization I want it to use Spice simulations and net lists to calculate which part needs to be used to give you the right input voltage and current. I also specified a circuit description language so I can tell the AI what I want. If I say I want a circuit that connects an Arduino to a motor it will figure out what parts need to go between the two and using the DB of parts generate netlists, do spice simulations to make sure they are compatible and optimize for energy consumption, parts count, and price. It comes down to being very similar to a NLP problem where the engineering rules are the grammar or syntax and the components the words. The smaller circuits are like sentences and paragraphs that are assembled into texts.

[@espeon91]

Lex, you should invite Alex Stepanov. He was the main influence behind C++'s STL, popularized generic programming and has great insights on both history of programming languages and computing.

[@robertw1871]

Generics; the greatly enhanced ability to reuse lots of bad code quickly and ubiquitously, while bringing new meaning to verbose structure trying to contain the wilderness…. -R

[@tbone2max388]

The beginning of this podcast reminds me when I just started learning python and pandas (right before 1.0). While debugging (i.e. googling stack overflow), I came across a 'bug'/'dispute' on how objects and values where being handled. I was surprised on how political the discussion felt...

[@Hexanitrobenzene]

@@nathankayhan4358 Spaces for the win :)

[@erickelly5587]

Hope the Hotz episode comes out soon!

[@lexfridman]

Yep, this week. It's a fun one.

[@subz424]

@@lexfridman I thought Hotz was coming out today, but this it turned out to be a better situation. It's like having your cake and eating it too. Excellent episode today and one to still look forward to 🙂. Thanks Lex!

[@TheMateusrex]

Amazing interview! Chris Lattner is so humble and inspirational, and Lex's interview touches on so many meaningful points in modern development while keeping the discussion pertinent and accessible. A great discussion with two really nice people.

[@coderentity2079]

This talk is a goldmine. Also great to see the friendship they share.

[@just_one23]

Maybe the podcast I've enjoyed the most, loved the questions and Chris answers, he seems pretty nice and intelligent.

[@jcarc5701]

That’s an understatement. This Chris guy might be the most knowledgeable wrt to computer languages. On top of that very personable and humble.

[@Boundbyalexis]

Appreciate all that you do. You spread knowledge and love.

[@nettocxxx]

Would love to see you talk with Douglas Hofstadter. 🙂

[@ChaiTimeDataScience]

Lex, I know you're a coffee drinker but I want to request you to make an exception of having Chai for an interview on Chai Time Data Science, it'd be an honour to host you. Thank you for all of your content and love!

[@ChaiTimeDataScience]

@@bahmansadeghi9243 Thanks so much for watching! 🍵

[@shoubhikdasguptadg9911]

yes Sanyam, we need him on chai time!

[@ChaiTimeDataScience]

@@shoubhikdasguptadg9911 I will keep trying to get Lex on the show. Hopefully we'll make it happen soon 🙂

[@jimtryon1560]

Thought provoking questions and a lot of great answers from Chris. Some of it was over my head but love the interview.

[@elielsaf3362]

You are great Lex. Thanks for contributing these conversations with brilliant people to the humble masses. The smallest among us benefit the most; people who will never see Harvard Yard or Yale grounds. Thanks for doing what you do, I'm not nearly as smart as you, but I appreciate your work.

[@iloveutubealotandmor]

Thanks Lex for this great interview I really enjoy it a lot. Chris is a good human being who inspires people to do meaningful things.

[@penguinista]

Not to many people of that caliber and success are so quick to remind you that they got to where they are through a lot of luck as well as their work and talent. Lattner is such an impressive person in so many ways, but that stood out to me at 2:30:30.

[@timfolio2432]

Talk to Brian Anderson about Rust!!!

[@panstromek]

I'd love to see NIko or Felix here, too!

[@derz3199]

Lex will be the first big podcaster to have a ‘Public KZbin Video’ with zero thumbs down and only thumbs up!!! i believe it!!

[@MusicalBasics]

swift is an absolutely gorgeous language and extremely functional and powerful. Chris Lattner is an absolute genius. Lex please also interview Iain McGilchrist. Love your conversations to these thought leaders in the world!

[@michaeljburt]

whoa. this interview. absolutely incredible interview, business leaders should be watching

[@thomasgricezodiac]

This is really cool! Thanks for the in-depth discussion on programming language design

[@jamesevans2507]

His smiling throughout explanations is really charismatic. It's only charismatic and not off-putting (or even obnoxious) because he knows what he's talking about inside out and consequently exudes utmost confidence in his words. One other person I know like this was Richard Feynman.

[@zakariaibrahim6781]

The intro was one of the best in the podcast.

[@zakframpton]

I have been practising the Mindfulness of Breathing technique kzbin.infoUgkxIIDVgnLN8pF_fPOyoZ1nTjbLvvZcib6r as taught in this CD for about 2 years having read about it in Paramananda's Change Your Mind book and taken a real liking to it. However at times I struggle to remain focused on the breathing and thought that at such times this guided version might suit me. So after two years I finally decided to buy it! The first 7'24 of Track 1 of the CD is a body relaxtion which I do not use: I don't like body relaxation techniques and I find 27' just a little too long for meditation. The remaining 20' of gentle, guided meditation helps me tremendously to relax and stay focused. I find him's voice very soothing and whilst he is present to guide you through the 4 stages of the meditation, his presence is not intrusive or distracting. For the past two years I have tried to follow this technique as best I can with gentle meditation music despite music not being recommended. Having used this CD a couple of times I think I will try from now on to adopt a new routine of no music and just this CD as I find it so helpful. I realise now that the music really is distracting and I have enjoyed listening to the ambient sounds around me which I am normally unaware of. I can not comment on the other 2 tracks of Metta or Walking Meditation as I bought the CD solely to help me with the Mindfulness of Breathing and it does just that - very effectively. In my opinion this CD is money very well spent as it will guide you through a thoroughly useful and beneficial meditation technique and I don't think you can put a price on that.

[@jambay4785]

Liked the vid, it was a stroll down memory lane for me as having started computer programming back in the late '70s so had the struggle with early tech in a variety of businesses. The look forward was a bit bleak but still there is hope for us all.

[@motivationforbreakfast]

Smart people do love to teach! I really love this guy.

[@ryan_c_letsgo]

RICH HICKEY creator of CLOJURE would be an absolutely amazing guest!! or DHH of rails fame!!

[@ryan_c_letsgo]

or Simon Peyton Jones !!!

[@l_combo]

oh yes, Rich and Simon would both be awesome! + the creator or Erlang too (I forget his name)

[@mtoman]

@@l_combo unfortunately passed away last year en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Armstrong_(programmer)

[@l_combo]

@@mtoman oh how sad, what a life and contribution though. Much respect.

[@mtoman]

@@l_combo Yeah I also agree that it might have been an interesting interview

[@muzk8887]

this is the nicest person i have ever seen and lex is second only in niceness to this guy. geez. thank you so much

[@benzobox2308]

This was easily my favorite episode of your entire podcast series

[@elizabethmorris4677]

Aren't tech nerds fun to listen to... I'm a retired programmer and loved this. Thanks Lex and Chris.

[@joeferrucci]

This is one of your best episodes. Thank you.

[@TomPatrickFri]

I‘d really like to see an interview with Karpathy!

[@H3ath]

I feel you've amounted to a whole lot, thanks for everything you do :)

[@heater5979]

Great talk guys. Given Chris Lattner's track record and that he apparently has to love what he does, the fact he has landed at SiFive finally convinces me that RISC V is going to be huge. Not that I needed much convincing before. This is great news. All the best with that.

[@horaciomlhh]

Great Episode! specially good reflections these times!

[@johnbauer5783]

Lex you have to talk about the financial system and the risks with Ai.

[@ScienceAppliedForGood]

This interview had lots of insightful ideas. Thanks for making it, Lex.

[@olegs79]

Brilliant. Didn't understand 90%. Understood the significance of everything just from this man's passion.

[@onestopcop2077]

“Don’t get romantic on me Lex,” clearly Chris is a fan of the podcast.

[@Bicloptic]

Been using swift for a while and it’s been great. Hopefully it picks up more support, I prefer it to python.

[@flowtoolz5554]

The godfather of my favourite language on my favourite podcast ... for 2,5 hours. This made my day 🙏🏻

[@Jonathanimpossible]

We use the equal sign for assigning variable values because it is a convention pulled directly from algebraic expressions.

[@Hexanitrobenzene]

I don't think so. Assignment in programming is local. Equating in algebra is rather global. If there is iteration involved, algebra uses indexes to discern which value belongs to which particular iteration. There is essentially no overwriting allowed to avoid ambiguity. I think "=" in programming is pure convenience - just one keystroke. Pascal language actually used ":=" for assignment.

[@danishkhalid9255]

Hey Lex, this was a great one! I'm really hoping for another Jim Keller podcast. Thanks for my favorite podcast!!

[@f1rstprinciple]

" ... real value comes from doing things that are hard." - Lattner

[@bennthirteen3701]

This guy is a legend, remember it was kind of a big deal when he joined Tesla.

[@Cheo97]

Thanks for your time, I don't understand anything but keep the podcast coming please

[@juanmadridejos5641]

I would love to see this conversatio but for non native english its difficult without subtitles. Otherwise your job is amazing Lex! Thak u so much. Love for everyone

[@sekousekou8838]

Thanks for this video . This conversation can go on and on and still fun to watch and learn .Great work to both of you Lex and Chris. Lex ,you have been able to invite people on on your channel without you it will be unknown for them to share their thoughts enthusiasm and idea . Thanks again

[@aaronzahne914]

you are a master at editing lex

[@heyhey9711]

Лешенька! Thank you for awesome content!🤗🤗

[@mriz]

this is so wholesome 1:12:42 not only this is how we learn, this is how to learn FAST

[@JosephWeidinger]

Lex, it's that time of year -- time to interview Chris Lattner again...

[@domaincontroller]

08:51 you can go directly to the machine, speak assembly language 13:35 what libraries exist, how quickly can you put together, what the tools around that look like, when you wanna be build a library thats missing what do you do 13:57 python, C 14:56 you're not gonna build a machine learning framework in python, instead, you write a bunch C/C++ code 23:18 hello world, public main void ..30:37 python, stacktrace, bugs, types,tradeoffs 39:47 android, swift, llvm 42:12 lisp

[@AlexCouch65]

You should probably consider having Andrey Breslav on, the guy leading the Kotlin project.

[@danhawkins1762]

Hmm, I was on board for a while. But can also see you can create and work with purely abstract types in (say) C++ and accomplish all the stated advantages of languages like swift without the need to create another language barrier. Value semantics, copy on write, operator overloading, integer classes, it's all there. So long as you can see through the bracket/semi colon/tab bias. With the advantages of well trodden understood abilities to dive drive down to lower level coding.

[@DelmarPeet]

Thanks for this!

[@TheUnholyPosole]

Hey Lex, could you do an episode on "The Great Reset" and the technocratic agenda?

[@Agreedtodisagree]

Clever and humble. this guy.

[@darthmoomoo]

47:30 Rust actually does exactly that. You can make your type behave like a "value-type" or otherwise. It is a core feature of the language.

[@cheektops7567]

Great discussion. Chris is so well spoken!

[@gangalo68]

Swift is the language that got me into programming. Thanks Chris!

[@motivationforbreakfast]

I eagerly await your version of Twitter, Lex. I'd happily be on the wait list for that.

[@youjunhu236]

He always smiles. It is enjoyable to watch him speaking

[@hblomqvist]

Please do a podcast about The Third Wave of Artificial Intelligence (Neuromorphic Computing ASICs)

[@nirajabcd]

Chris is so inspiring. One of the most intellectually satisfying podcast from this series. So inspiring I have decided to learn compiler technology. Any suggestions for newbie?

[@nickcalabrese4829]

I see this comment is old but if you’re still looking (and more probably for other people who are interested) crafting interpreters is great and so is the dragon book by aho et all. Probably start with crafting interpreters because it’s free online. The dragon book is way better technically but it’s not as much of a tutorial.

[@nirajabcd]

@@nickcalabrese4829 crafting interpreters seems go-to book for the starters based on reviews. Just ordered a hard copy version.

[@TheAIEpiphany]

Loved this one. Chris is super good at explaining stuff! Keep it going Lex, t's fascinating to see the progress this podcast made over the past ~2 years I've been listening to it. Not everybody has an opportunity to connect with this many amazing people like you do. I guess MIT helped, I just wonder what would happen if you were born in some poor African, Asian, etc. country. Luck is definitely an important factor in life as well. I do believe you can compensate for most of it through hard work, but still.

[@granand]

If experts like Chris who can get inside the compilers can teach programming languages, I think quality of programs written would high along with fun.

[@johnseo5525]

Thanks!

[@dadecountyboos]

Adding swift to the learn-list... great talk, as always

[@Yupppi]

Hi Lex! I tried to watch your podcast from Spotify, but couldn't figure out how to get the video to show up! If you don't have video on the Spotify podcasts, could you look up on how to get the same video up there? Loved how Joe Rogan managed that!

[@JelleWolbers]

Another amazingly interesting video, thank you Lex and Chris for your work!

[@jordanjennnings9864]

Very wise discussions. Another great pod cast! Thank you chris and lex god bless you both for your studies

[@andrewroberthook3310]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pqnFh4JmhdJ7q9E

[@marred2277]

Chris is my new hero

[@mikepaling8427]

Lex, the podcast is incredible, I have to say that you’re becoming the next Rogan. You and him are my go to podcasts. Also you should maybe think about getting just a little Velcro on your tie that way no one can use it against you. Unless you have a technique for defending.

[@eukelarTV]

On my own coding journey these computer science themed guests have been amazing conversations. Keep it up 👍

[@boliusabol822]

Really an intelligent guest.. I want to learn Swift now. .This is somebody that knows how to design a programming language. He is far more rational than other language designers I have heard.