Libertarianism In The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein

[@benny_1985]

My favourite quote from the book “There must be a yearning deep in human heart to prevent others from doing as they please”.

[@loganjackson675]

Speaking of people unknowingly quoting Heinlein, he actually popularized the phrase “Pay it forward.” It was already being used infrequently so he didn’t coin the phrase, but it became a commonly known phrase after he used it in Between Planets. Fun fact

[@gixxerblade]

You forgot Starship Troopers which probably his most poliscifi books there is.

[@awesomemccoolname7111]

I'd say his top 3 in terms of popularity are stranger in a strange land, starship troopers, and the moon is a harsh mistress. Time enough for love isn't in the top 5 of most fans. In fact a lot of them don't know about it.

[@zenrand688]

I was weaned on Heinlein starting with Stranger in a Strange Land in high school - not only did he start me on a long time love of sci-fi, but he also formed a lot of my own libertarian thinking. My sister who is an RN actually treated him while he was in the hospital in LA - wish I could have met the man who influenced so much of my thinking.

[@SarahSmith-ob4qo]

You are my new favorite person. You helped me learn so much in 22 minutes. Thank you for taking the time to make these videos!

[@shariklein5883]

great response!

[@sailorbychoice1]

1:30 Um, even a political science major should recognize RAH was a child during WW1; I believe he was 6 years old at the end of the first war. He worked as an civilian think-tank engineer during WW- "2" in Philadelphia, PA Navy Yard.

[@chrisking2796]

This was a pleasant and interesting video. Thank you for taking the time to understand libertarianism and its varied diversity of thought without just going on a rampage based on a few quotes repeated a couple times online. I have been following libertarianism since the early 1990s and your review/critique was very fair in its assessment.

[@benny_1985]

Would love to hear your thoughts on Time Enough for Love, I enjoyed it but I feel a little bit dirty for saying that.

[@backtothewoodshed9000]

Great video! The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress influenced David D. Friedman who wrote The Machinery Of Freedom which I definitely recommend reading. Another book I want to recommend reading because it’s currently the greatest libertarian/anarchist book that I’ve ever read is The Problem Of Political Authority by Michael Huemer. It’s a complete total masterpiece. The only thing that sucks is that it’s expensive but it’s 100% well worth the purchase. I’ve read a lot of libertarian/anarchist books from authors like Murray Rothbard, Ludwig Von Mises, Milton Friedman (who was the father of David D. Friedman), Frederic Bastiat, Lysander Spooner, Voltairine de Cleyre, Rose Wilder Lane, Samuel E. Konkin III, Ron Paul, Larken Rose, Bryan Caplan, Wolfi Landstreicher (who translated the writings of Max Stirner), etc.. Michael Huemer is my favorite philosopher. The Problem Of Political Authority currently remains the best libertarian/anarchist book that I’ve read so far. Highly highly recommend

[@jaybrown6350]

An interesting thing about The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress is that Heinlein seems to admit that anarchy always resolves into order because in the story an hierarchy develops as the moon starts to truly become its own independent entity.

[@ThatsSoPoe]

Loved this discussion. I can't wait to see the other videos you make in this series!

[@kellyfrench]

He was not an engineer in WWI, he wasn’t old enough.

[@dennismitchell5276]

WW2, easy mistake to make.

[@doncarlton4858]

Correct, He graduated from Annapolis right after WW1 and served until his medical retirement in the early 1930s. He was an Air Engineering Officer on the USS Lexington, the US Navy's second aircraft carrier.

[@kellyfrench]

@@doncarlton4858 I really learned a great deal about the country in the 1920’s that the history books don’t cover, by reading Heinlein’s authorized biography.

[@mpetersen6]

​@@doncarlton4858 Also served as an officer in communications aboard a Light Cruiser iirc.

[@jasonwolski3397]

One of favorite books of all time. Thank you so much

[@StoriesfromtheShelf]

I’m glad you enjoyed it!

[@BOOKBOYSPOD]

Enjoyed your Analysis and got some pointers to things we didn't pick up on. We found our way to this book via Lysander Spooner's No Treason for our podcast on our channel.

[@asher3491]

Love the video! I found The Moon is a Harsh Mistress in the most odd way. I wasn't seeking it out specifically. I knew vaguely what it was about but to be completely honest, I'm not the most knowledgeable about politics. I never took any classes and am still finding my way into it all. I was looking to hear somebody else speak about it. You offered some wonderful insight. It was a great watch. Funny enough I found the book because I play on a Minecraft server called Novylen. I learned that it got its name from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and decided I should give it a read if the owner of the server enjoyed it so much. It was a good read.

[@AkumaQiu]

Can you do the dispossessed by ursula le guin?

[@nstents7781]

"Grok". Hmm. Yes, ok, it means "to understand". But it means that about as much as "book" means "pages with print". To grok means to have examined something so thoroughly and fully, to have understood it in its own context, in its relation to you, in its relation to others of its kind, and so forth to the point that it becomes subsumed into quite literally a part of your state of mind. A metaphor for grok would work if you considered how water actually becomes integrated into your body as an important part of a functioning system. To grok information, when uou understand it, is as important to your mind as drinking water is to the functioning of your body. And indeed, we are told that the literal definition of "grok is to drink.

[@tammikma]

Wow! Fantastic video! I don't know your channel well yet and am excited that you are talking about political stuff in such depth!

[@kirjakauris]

I don't often watch "review" videos, but this series seems like a really interesting idea. I had no real idea about libertarianism before hand but I always find it interesting to learn more about different ways of thinking (especially so far removed from my own) and especially within the context of a piece of fiction. I have a feeling this way of thinking would be especially popular in the US as opposed to, say, Northern Europe where I'm from :D

[@2ndRealm]

The best of this book is Prof’s ideology of a Rational Anarchist. BTW - great description of the book. This book is my go to listen book when I want to unwind and sleep. The best reader/narrator is Lloyd James. Also - from a normal human standpoint with hormonal desires - a half naked woman is very distracting. :) So not a too terrible tactic in the book. Will make for a great movie someday. :)

[@dhservers]

Thank you!

[@michaelturner2806]

I grew up with this book and it was a major influence on me, as you can probably tell from username. I liked the character of Mike as a stand-in for what might be considered autism, the "idiot savant" in older terms. While he performed as information gathering, study, and dissemination, along with providing a charismatic figurehead for the movement, it was clear towards the end he was only humoring a friend, wasn't really interested in revolution, and more just wanted to be able to be himself to people and not wear a mask. I also liked the figure of Prof, and more that he was intellectually curious about the politics rather than dictating what things should be like. It's been a while since I reread it, but I remember him asking more questions than answering them, sometimes impractical. I might have selective memory though, since I've gone on to completely reject libertarianism personally.

[@waterleaper3419]

In. In Luna. Only earthworms say "on Lun".

[@christophersmith3005]

I enjoyed your analysis and the academic approach to book reviews. Excellent definition of libertarianism. If you revisit the political philosophy themes within sci fi and speculative fiction, please review the Lazarus series (graphic novels) by Greg Rucka, and the Player of Games by Iain M. Banks. You may also want to check out The Business by Iain M. Banks. It may be out of print, but well worth the treasure hunt.

[@davidinnes247]

Like this channel. She strikes me as a doctoral candidate or an advanced masters student.

[@psikeyhackr6914]

Notice that we do not hear "Anarcho-capitalists" or "Anarcho-communists" advocating mandatory accounting/finance in the schools. But Heinlein said the Competent Man should be able to do accounts. I think libertarians tend to confuse their egos with their intellects.

[@TheBookFinch]

I did not know that moonbat came from Heinlein. :o You learn something new every day.

[@2ndRealm]

These are great non-fiction books to expand your horizons on what is and can be possible without the state. Boundaries of Order: Private Property as a Social System by Butler Shaffer Private Governance: Creating Order in Economic and Social Life by Edward Peter Stringham

[@groussac]

Thanks for the book review. I didn't see The Moon as an endorsement of libertarianism, but rather as logical extensions of a 'what-if'. What if there were a society of cast offs left to their own devices? What kind of social and economic norms would they create in an unforgiving environment? What kinds of conflicts would evolve in their relationship with the mother world? My lack of insight is probably more due to the way I read books than anything else. For example, I was struck by the sprinkling of Russian words throughout and an English usage heavily influenced by Slavic structures. In other words, I look to Heinlein more as a writer more than as a political commentator. #Suggestion: when you cite a book for the first time, you should display the author and title on a placard that you overlay when you're editing the video. Reason: you don't annunciate very clearly, and even if you did, variances in the spelling of people's names would frustrate a search for these books. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, etc.

[@FinalBlowJoe]

I found this really interesting Bree. So much I only knew the basic idea about that you spoke and educated about. Curious to see who and what areas you focus on in the future.

[@ironwarriorkrieger4011]

As well as Starship Troopers

[@larrpeninger]

Loved this discussion! I just finished Henry David Thoreau's book Walden and he seems to me to be the perfect Libertarian. Did he at the time have any political affiliation? 2nd question Have the Libertarians as a whole adopted Thoreau and his works as their ideal person?

[@StoriesfromtheShelf]

You know, I think the adaptation of Thoreau as ideal isn't widespread. This is probably for a few reasons. First, he was a proponent of a government that exists, but is highly limited in a slightly different way than traditional libertarianism. Second, he was also pretty vocally okay with democracy generally. Though he thought people needed limited government, there was not as much of him questioning its legitimacy. I quite like Thoreau. Have you read up on Transcendentalism?

[@larrpeninger]

@@StoriesfromtheShelf i have not read Transcendentalism. I picked Walden mostly by accident but enjoyed it. I will pick more up from him for sure. Walden was a struggle though. Very dry.

[@cubfanmike]

Thoreau wrote a number of radical leftist dissertations. 'On the duty o civil disobedience,' was one of his titles. He also proposed withholding taxes to end the Spanish-American war.

[@albertcapley6894]

It's funny because I think this book did more to make me an anarco-syndicalist than any other piece of fiction, I loved the book mostly but the forceful exposition of "the market taking care of things" which I suppose the author intended to convince me of the merit of such ideas, instead had the opposite effect lol. I had a lot of libertarians recommend books to convert me or whatever (mostly Ayn Rand) but none of them are written as well as this one imo, and if it had the effect it did then I suppose the effect is not universal. Really good video btw, I had a random thought about this book which I read years ago, and was immediately brought to you after typing it I to yerterb so for once it has placed me in good hands.

[@christotaku]

I want this on the screen so bad...

[@FlorisDVijfde]

So much gold for the taking really, Heinlein, Philip K Dick...but Hollywood tends to be lazy. Reading is out of style. But the good thing is I've become more motivated to read these days because Hollywood is more awful than ever.

[@nelsoncho4256]

Hi , just wondering the meaning of “no Huhu” . Just finish the novel after seeing this video .

[@wskinnyodden]

Time Enough For Love and Methuselahs Children are my favourite books from Heinlein, well a Tunnel in the Sky also... Then there's E.E.Doc Smith and the Lensman Series :P

[@mikeoveli1028]

Bree Thank you for your first statement. My friends who read a lot often look down on sci/fi. My response is, you are missing the point. In my opinion a sci/fi wrier can create any world and then put a human in that world. How would a human and humanity deal with this very unique problem. Orson Scott Card did that so well in 'Path Finder'. I really love that one and the reveal of the creation of that world. Thanks for your take.

[@textests]

If you would like another fiction book with an interesting depiction of an anarchist/libertarian state try “Distress” by Greg Egan. The second half of the book is set at a physics conference on the island country of’Stateless’ and it goes into some detail on how the stateless state works

[@hyperbitcoinizationpod]

You need to add 0:00 otherwise the time stamps don't work.

[@elliotsmith9812]

Ken Macleod then! Cosmonauts Keep and The Cassini Division!

[@mike-zl3kv]

I always saw the novel as a discussion of Hobbes' "State of Nature" thought experiment. Since, in the beginning of the novel, the only enforced law is that there can be no laws, the society is run by interpersonal cooperation in enforcing norms. Hobbes' solution to the state-of-nature problem (government) is entirely prevented. Libertarianism reigns in the resultant society. However, as the external repression is alleviated, Hobbes' solution is no longer impossible. Immediately, a government is formed, which Heinlein very deliberately models on and equates with the U.S. government. To me, this implies that he sees government (as a social norm) gradually spreading through the society, as it (historically) spread through U.S. society. In a sense, Heinlein is agreeing entirely with Hobbes. Thus, his metaphorical tale of the retired government cannon-polisher who "goes into business for himself" is not an individual taking governmental authority to a private, non-coordinated, basis but, instead, an agreement with Hobbes' thesis. The tale's retiree is "infected" with government. It's true that Heinlein admires self-sufficiency, preparedness, plain-dealing, and honesty. He certainly endows all of his protagonists with these traits. However, unlike Rand, he never, in any of his novels, implies that society can reach a stable, libertarian, utopia. (Though, in "Stranger in a Strange Land", he implies that it might occur after bad elements have been violently weeded out of humankind.) It seems to me that Heinlein's libertarianism is more of a personal code of conduct than a prescription for society.

[@BelRigh]

A"Time Enpugh for Love" tattoo???? Hmmmm im intrigued

[@swiftmatic]

@12:28, Luna was STILL a penal colony at the beginning of the story. They were still receiving new 'chooms' every so often. The Authority had armed guards, although they were only protecting Authority property at that point. IMO, the actual point of contention is that Luna had been a penal colony for a LONG time. Long enough that multiple generations of 'loonies' were living in a prison without ever having commited a crime worthy of such penalty as 'transportation .' O 19:40 n Earth, at least. @19:40, the young men in this case knew OF Manny. Enough so that when Manny called them out on killing the man without a trial, they asked him to be the judge. AND made them pay him for it! 😉 Yes, i love TMIAHM. Great video! Informative, thought provoking, and entertaining. Thank you😎

[@Jesadaa1]

The three most known are The moon is a Harsh Mistress, Starship Trooper and Stranger in a strange land

[@doncarlton4858]

Heinlein was an American Socialist, a movement that began in the the US at the beginning of the Nineteenth Century. One of is principals was "Positivism". It meant the future was always going to be better than today because an increase in scientific knowledge and the rationalism it brings would make the world better. Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek Universe is built on Positivism. Towards the end of his life Heinlein said his three most important works were Starship Troopers, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and Stranger in a Strange Land. Heinlein said if you read the books and understand them, "Then you Grok me."

[@marshallsuber3346]

Did we read the same book?

[@wskinnyodden]

Ok, favourite Heinlein Quote: "When a place is so crowded that Ids are mandatory/needed, it's time to go elsewhere/move on!"

[@strugat]

On the subject of private courts (and Bree's apparent amusement of it), based on dozens of my personal interactions with the court system (civil, if it can be called that), I would much prefer a private court, based on reputation, to the government courts that are based on nepotism and personal ties of the judges and lawyers, or political agendas that run unrestrained. No social construct is perfect, but the private alternative seems to be far superior to the government disaster.

[@paulskimina925]

So did she really just gloss over and ignore starship troopers when mentioning his famous works… exposing some bias no doubt lol

[@wellingtoncrescent2480]

On the topic of Atlas Shrugged, I'm not sure I can accept your "touchstone" definition. Having first read it decades ago as an adolescent, I believe there is truth in the following characterization from John Rogers: “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

[@kevinrussell1144]

Yeah, and the one NOT involving orcs (goblins in body, not mind) is NOT very well written. SMH, but one would likely suspect the author was a narcissist who was very adept at cutting characters directly from cardboard?!

[@kellyfrench]

Love that quote!

[@MightyJoeNolan]

Great take on Heinlein🙏👍 I'm not an SF stan, but I always loved his classic books and always found the fascist accusations to be mostly stupid🤔

[@thehighground3630]

Most accusations of facism are utterly moronic. Either a person is a facist or they are not. If they are a facist they will be honest about it and tell you. If they deny it then they can not be a facist.

[@tylersizelove7521]

Authority also strikes similar to Great Britain's East India Trading Company that harassed India's market and people for so long.

[@caninedrill_instructor5861]

Ms. Bree Heinlein could not have served in World War One as a ten year old.

[@nohphd]

Misspoke… WW2

[@thehighground3630]

Very good an neutral video.

[@stephentutton3298]

I have done applied science.

[@jemussi7842]

Perhaps due to your training, you are taking libertarianism too literally. Most people who espouse it do not advocate pure libertarianism as you have described it which would obviously fail as would pure anything. Arguing from such extreme idealised positions is a fruitless exercise and is the classic error made by all psuedo-academics. You are young enough it seems to avoid such an unproductive career path.

[@allurbase]

Eww always puts me off that Americans use libertarian as right wing free market stuff while in the rest of the world it's usually in the lines of anarchism.

[@FlorisDVijfde]

I despise how libertarianism and objectivism are so quickly dismissed by many western scholars. They make them look so extreme that I only get more interested in exploring their ignored nuances.

[@scotter]

Enjoyed your review! Mostly. Hopefully, you are in a mood where you are OK to hear some disagreement. Couple issues: (1) Mike is an artificial intelligence (a.i.); and (2) You used the term "Self sufficiency" a few times and I'd say yes, regarding SOME libertarians but not all. Better terms might include "Individualism (as opposed to collectivism)" and "decentralization". Neither of these or other libertarian principles preclude private services such as security, food provision, etc., which is part of why I object to "self sufficiency" as a general term in reference to libertarians. I invite you to read this: clearsay.net/voluntaryism-law-security-without-government

[@psikeyhackr6914]

Aeronautical engineer in War II not World War I. He was 11 years old when WWI ended. Have you checked out Voyage from Yesteryear by James P Hogan for political nuance? Ayn Rand came to the U.S. 30 years after the end of the Indian Wars. So property rights really mattered after the palefaces stole the game board.

[@MightyJoeNolan]

Polyamorous? IT'S COMPLICATED!!!

[@StrivetobeDust]

"The Cat who Walks through Walls" is Heinlein's libertarian show piece -both pro and con.

[@RANDALLBRIGGS]

Ugh! John Locke placed in the same category as Rousseau? No way! Locke was rational. Rousseau was a romantic.

[@adhocrat1]

left and right are not useful terms for politics. The modern division is collectivism versus individualism.

[@d0ubleyouteef]

still yikes. how about now?

[@Lonewolf6565]

Hes better known for Time Enough for Love and not Starship Troopers? Lol yeah ok. Give me a break.

[@shariklein5883]

i read a dozen of his books, never heard of starship till the movie

[@davidgross13]

Gave ups after 11 minutes

[@decorumgun]

this is a joke, right?