Life at the Bottom | Theodore Dalrymple (AKA Anthony Daniels) | EP 170

On this episode of the Jordan B Peterson Podcast, Jordan is joined by Dr. Anthony Daniels or as you might know him, Theodore Dalrymple, which is his pen name. Dr. Anthony Daniels is a British writer and essayist. He is known for writing such pieces as Life at the Bottom: The Worldview That Makes the Underclass, The Mandarins and the Masses, Not With a Bang With A Whimper, Spoiled rotten: The toxic cult of sentimentality, and The Terror of Existence. His columns in the Times, Spectator, and the Wall Street Journal.
Dr. Anthony Daniels and Jordan discussed a variety of topics relating to distinct differences in culture and mindset in the poor “Underclass” in Britain. They examine many stories from Dr. Daniel's time as a consulting physician in a prison and hospital in one of the poorest areas of London and draw conclusions on similarities in violence, domestic abuse, learned helplessness, education, monogamy, the disintegration of the family, and more.
Find more Dr. Anthony Daniels writing under his pen name Theodore Dalrymple
The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast can be found at www.jordanbpeterson.com/podcast/
#JordanBPeterson #JordanPeterson #Life #BritishWriters #BritishEssayists #DomesticAbuse #TheodoreDalrimple
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Visit www.jordanbpeterson.com to view more information about Jordan, his books, lectures, social media, blog posts, and more.
Jordan B. Peterson is a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto, a clinical psychologist, and the author of the multi-million copy bestseller 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos, #1 for nonfiction in 2018 in the US, Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, the Netherlands, Brazil and Norway, and slated for translation into 50 languages.
Dr. Peterson has appeared on many popular podcasts and shows, including the Joe Rogan Experience (#877, #958, #1006), The Rubin Report (12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos, Free Speech, Psychology, Gender Pronouns), H3H3 (#37), and many more. Dr. Peterson’s own podcast has focused mainly on his lecture series, covering a great deal of psychology and historical content. Jordan is expanding his current podcast from lectures to interviews with influential people around the world. We hope you enjoy this episode and more to come from Dr. Peterson in the future.
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Show Notes: [0:18] Jordan introduces this episode's guest Dr. Anthony Daniels. [2:00] Jordan explains how he discovered Dr. Daniels work and started to agree with many of his core observations. [5:00] Anthony Daniels talks about the beginning of the discovery of attitudes in the British "underclass" [10:30] Examining domestic violence issues and mating in the "Underclass" [15:30] The tendency for less monogamous societies to have difficulty with increased levels of aggression and violence with severely impacted traditional family structure. [24:00] Debating reasons lower class are, unintentionally perhaps, leading to the destruction of the family and lives they would like to have. [25:30] Looking at the possibility of a universal income as a negative influence on society, a welfare state. [34:30] The issues of judgement, its fallibility but also its necessity when creating productive societal structures. [37:00] Using the idea of existential equality with patients. Anthony tells many stories from his time consulting in prison [50:30] The toxic cult of sentimentality, the terrible danger of infantilizing people who are expressing emotion. Trying to define genuine empathy. [1:00:00] Is there learned helplessness in advanced western populations? Examining the success of poor immigrants to the success of poor locals in western society. [1:06:30] Looking at serial relationships, are they the problems or a symptom of other things. Jordan outline why he believes that serial relationships only work in an extremely small special set of circumstances that can actually lead to some form of happiness [1:13:30] Attitudes on education, teaching children to read, examining the issue of creating and imposing structure on people as a form of judging what is worthwhile and not. [1:23:30] Jordan summarizes the current argument that Anthony Daniels is making about the British underclass up to this point. How do we pick metrics to decide if issues with lower classes are improving or decreasing? Anthony uses the story of jack the ripper to illustrate an interesting point [1:31:30] What has been the impact of writing on the subject of the poor in Dr. Daniel's life? Are there others writing about similar topics? [1:38:00] The similarities across countries in the poorest of the poor and the problems that pervade their subcultures [1:45:00] What was the emotional impact on Dr. Anthony Daniels on encountering all the pain and suffering in his patients [1:51:00] How did Daniel's conclusion transition into his clinical practice for the better? [1:53:00] Wrapping up the show

[@kiaruna]

hello dr peterson ! God bless you

[@dallasdutchyn9581]

Hey Jordan I truly hope you reconsider running for political office in Canada! This country desperately needs a man of your thinking to be in charge

[@Vashthestampedeo]

The supreme witness of Jesus Christ (King David) is reporting for duty. He was a man whose tongue held no lies, For he was the direct descendant of our father in the heavenly skies. Born to a body of fleshy sin, Though what laid beneath was unlike the rest of his kin. Jesus had the utmost grace, Never being wavered by evils face. He was wise beyond any years, Performing miracles that would bring crowds to tears. A beacon of light on top of a starless mountain, Where words of wisdom poured out of him as if there ran a cosmic fountain. His eyes pierced through you with a single glance, Leaving even the most hardened individuals in quite the trance. The Holy Spirit so ever majestically flowed inside this man, Naturally people caught notice and became a fan. Students began showing up from every mold, When they heard his words their hearts were sold. Wicked men put a price on Jesus's head, He was wanted alive or dead. Despite this he and his disciples continued their teachings, Where on occasion they endured terrible beatings. One of the twelve apostles turned to black, No longer having Jesus's back. Judas Iscariot had done Satan's bidding, And it is in hell where he now is sitting. Jesus died on the cross to pay for our shortcoming, However don't be saddened for if you believe in him you will see him at your homecoming. There he sits at the right hand of God's throne, Being the voice of truth and love that we all have known. Satan's tongue is coated in a layer of deceit, And he tramples over promises with his feet. He's a being who is bound by deceptions, Whose very essence oozes with misconceptions. He struggles to look you in your eyes, For his gaze holds nothing but lies. On occasion he will give you his hand, But don't be fooled by his stand. He seeks to corrupt your heart, You would be wise to avoid him from the start. Seeking quick pleasures and casting aside love, He traverses this land with push and shove. Now Lucifer was once not lost, But pride blinded him at a cost. Disobeying God he waged war, Becoming detestable to the core. Today he is the ruler of Earth, Though for all his power he has no real worth. However most of us have still been sold, Giving into sin and becoming cold. Nearly everyone is a puppet dancing on strings, Marching to delusion for their unjust kings. My people have given into lust, Becoming robots full of rust. However you my child are the exception, So when you meet me don't forget to mention. That you alone have been granted the key, And before your glory they shall all bend a knee.

[@codycarse]

If you place this text in the description instead of a comment then the video will have corresponding chapters.

[@MH-cv5ye]

Thanks for being so dedicated to decency, using fact and logic. It's so good to see. You've definitely helped me out by confirming what I thought already, and supplemented plenty more. Heartfelt thanks. You're welcome to Wales, Britain, any time you like. Have a great day.

[@honestjohn6418]

This is what Jordan needs for his health. Constructive intellectual discussion one on one, rather than heated adversarial interviews and debates with people who hate him and misrepresented him for no reason.

[@chuzzbot]

This was just mutual agreement and congratulation. I like JP but some of the ideas (especially about half way through the discussion) were pretty immature. I don't think he enjoys it, he should just let go of some the ideas that are poisonous and overly simplified. The discussion about literacy though was important, these phonetic methods are nonsense, people should be able to deconstruct words and automatically understand their meaning.

[@VictorLepanto]

@@chuzzbot You're just used to him trying to explain common sense to people whose brains are addled by leftist ideological constructs. People who have been trained to "think" in ideological categories & simply refuse to look @ reality & draw logically necessary conclusion from what they simply see. These two men have spent their lives in clinical therapy actually treating, either as a a physician or a psychologist, actual people. Human nature in its basics is actually rather simple, it is merely difficult. They have nothing to disagree about b/c the have simply seen the same thing, over & over again.

[@honestjohn6418]

@@ellie698 he’s forthright about controversial subjects that he truly believes the establishment are wrong about. And he has the data on his side. His provocation is just telling the truth as he sees it in the face of people who can’t bare to hear their cherished ideas challenged. That’s their/your problem. Not his

[@honestjohn6418]

The point of my comment was that it isn’t a competition. It’s not about who is better. It’s a conversation not a grilling or a debate. Peterson is a master orator and intellect but he suffers from deep emotional pain. So these conversations are just more healthy for him

[@philliasphog6689]

It's what we all need!

[@revilela_academia]

These are the two men that I most admire. As a professor in Brazil, I feel represented by them. When a listen to them, I recover my hope for a better society.

[@harryflashman4542]

thinking people all need more hope, because for those that can evaluate evidence, it tends to be discouraging.

[@ajs41]

The truth is the two of them are not really on the same wavelength (in my opinion) but because they're both very patient and considerate towards each other, they manage to keep the conversation going in an interesting way, which a lot of other people might not have been able to do in those circumstances.

[@eddiewalker7252]

...Jesus, my Hope in Glory!🙏🏽

[@jonpatrick66]

Keep your hope alive. I'm sure you will bless many of your students lives.

[@revilela_academia]

@@jonpatrick66 Thanks!

[@odettegibbs2238]

My goodness, how I appreciate the old school English sensibilities which breathe through Theodore's being. His self deprecating humour, no-nonsense directness and robust sense of humanity is incredibly endearing and admirable. Bring back THIS kind of masculinity. The world is sorely missing it. Thanks chaps for a wonderful discussion on topics which matter 🙏🏻

[@ajs41]

Agree 100%. I try to read every book he writes.

[@kezl3037]

I grew up working class, single parent to 2 girls. My eldest is 18 and I'm only getting out of the struggle now. I started a business, went to uni and devoted my life to making sure my kids grew up polite and kind. My 18 year old is predicted an A in psychology and criminology a levels and my 16 year old is a straight a student. They don't want to struggle like I did. Its been a hard 18 years but I can now sit back and watch my kids thrive in the world. I know I'm a rarity, I have single mum friends whos kids won't get up to go to school.

[@joshualovelace3375]

I am stunned (and encouraged) that this man has seen so much horror, and yet is able to be joyful and even humorous!

[@MrJdsenior]

Albeit with a significant quantity of wine, it appeared. I'm not judging. With all he's witnessed it might be necessary. Apologies if I'm wrong about that bottle's contents.

[@cashews1000]

His last sentence "what the eye cant see, the heart cant grieve over" in regards to possible online abuse for this video :D absolute troll

[@iainfenton4671]

His books juxtapose the bleakest straight to the point outlooks with humour. 'Birthdays, there's no merit to them: we all have one!'

[@martinpalm8039]

All doctors, police officers and soldiers are not miserable people. I couldn´t hold one of those professions because I would probably be miserable. But for some people it´s a calling and they can deal with it.

[@sunflower-oo1ff]

Yes, I felt the same way👍

[@danielratna7647]

I read Dalrymple’s “Our Culture, What’s Left of It” book when I was 18 and it was one of the best books I’ve ever read. I’m 22 now and a massive fan of Peterson’s work. I never thought I’d see a conversation between the two. Thank you Peterson for making this happen.

[@JulesBartow]

Thinking his work at Manhattan Institute conservative think tank had to be alt-Right dogma I decided to defy my never-Trump associates peak inside the demonized book cover. The fact that I'm here demonstrates the fascinating interest.

[@brunog.c.santucci5136]

The same here!

[@seanmatthewking]

Is there any sort of scholarship or is he just sharing his intuitions? 30 minutes in and I’m not sure there’s empirical evidence for any of the specific claims he’s making.

[@brunog.c.santucci5136]

@@seanmatthewking If I understand what you're asking, this is a complicated thing to always search for. In this case he does have empirical evidence (as long as it counts to be based on personal experience) but knowledge must not and can not come only through one specific method. Knowledge and wisdom comes algo through the articulation between our own culture and experience and that which is presented by the external reality. Truths emerge from that and are then shared with the public for further discussion and enrichment of their own culture and experience. This is a "chaotic but organized" way to "mine" truths.

[@jsrgev]

Me too, give or take a few years. Can't believe Dalrymple's on here. What an awesome surprise!

[@banditnip0345]

Theodore is hilarious. He's a very down to earth professional.

[@bennym5244]

Not really. I would say more of an Olympic ice figure skater. Theoretically.

[@ericbourgoin2792]

@@bennym5244 Theodoretically speaking he's more of a gender neutral pink dolphin

[@TarikM]

I was one of the 13k people that bought his Life at the Bottom in the Netherlands and the problems he describes with a lot of the failed social initiatives are very similar to the ones in the Netherlands. Real eye opener for me.

[@smelltheglove2038]

The modern academic thinks they are advocating for compassion when the reality is that they are advocating for cruelty. It’s not compassionate to let someone ruin their lives by having zero discipline.

[@timw8649]

@@smelltheglove2038 That is so very true! That's why I like Peterson. He always says you have to do the work, no matter what your hardships. Get yourself help, get unstuck, make better choices, take accountability for your life, make a life plan of your own, and see who you can help as part of your recovery from trauma, grief, depression, anxiety, etc.

[@rtdmna]

@@timw8649 sometimes we need reminding, thank you, just the words I needed to see this morning, as I start another day. Peace

[@timw8649]

@@rtdmna Sending best wishes to you my friend. We have but one ride- let yourself have a good one!

[@garethwigglesworth8187]

@@smelltheglove2038 they are advocating for the drugs companies.

[@jamesx2464]

2 of some of the roughest jobs I could think of working at a prison and working at the hospital and this man did both what a beast

[@middleclasshealthcare]

working at a hospital isn't for sissies that for sure!

[@hollybinnington7600]

His story about how he persuaded the prisoners not to swear is funny and profound

[@NiRaSis]

@@hollybinnington7600 yes, brilliant.

[@hollybinnington7600]

@dizzy respect to your brother, I don't think I could do that job and remain sane

[@hollybinnington7600]

@dizzy he sounds like a great man, im sure he would make a great firefighter, he obviously has a self sacrificing spirit.

[@kinocchio]

These episodes are coming thick and fast. Appreciate it.

[@adventureswithjonny87]

Thick?

[@Duckiesweet]

Agree, yet...🤣...Nioce 👌

[@samuelnakai1804]

*Excited hentai noises*

[@antfinn5003]

@@samuelnakai1804 hennntaiii

[@sminter7521]

Dont complain you know thats how you like it lmao

[@TheZGALa]

I was incarcerated at age 13 and 14 and 15 after abuse and head trauma. Decades later, while getting my MA in special education, it became obvious that many of the kids I was locked up with were exceptionally intelligent and the majority, if not every single one, had many traumatic head injuries/disability/abuse. These are details that need more attention/consideration as we move forward in creating better systems. Thank you both for this conversation. Thank you Jordan, for your consistent exploration and discourse about our human condition. I consider you a 'system of helping' in and of yourself.

[@rumble1925]

Yup, I think my stints with this lifestyle was due to head trauma. I used to be a super polite kid, tidy, did well in school, fairly popular. Then I was assaulted by a nazi, he knocked me out literally 5-6 times one after another as soon as I woke up. Looking back, the change in my behaviour was night and day. I think I kind of healed up a bit now but not without having a bunch of bad years in my teens and early 20's. I still struggle with ADHD-like symptoms but I've learned to cope better.

[@serpentines6356]

​@@rumble1925 A nazi? Curious, where were you? How did THAT happen?

[@serpentines6356]

Early in internet days I started searching out all kinds of topics. Child abuse and its prevention has always been a strong interest. I came across a very interesting article regarding this subject, the many criminals who were in prison and had abuse, or mental problems and head injuries. It was a very detailed, interesting article. I hadn't heard that take before. Hope it's still on the net somewhere. Written by an investigative journalist I think. Haven't listened to this discussion yet, but started reading posts, and these here reminded me of that. Sometimes, I forget about that physical injury aspect to some of these problems. Thanks for sharing!

[@rumble1925]

@@serpentines6356 sweden, early 00s. Bunch of high schoolers that were into white power music and viking stuff…

[@omega1231]

Having grown up in a low income area in Northern Europe, I've never heard anyone so accurately and succinctly describe the subculture I grew up in. From the masses of women actively seeking out partners that any thinking person could guess would physically abuse them to the overactive jealousy ending in anything from assault to kidnapping and murder (the latter happened to one of my friends when we were 15, thankfully it was "only" attempted murder, torture and kidnapping). The worst thing however is these areas are usually very insular and stepping outside can be like a culture shock, a culture shock produced by moving 5kms in any direction. It also makes it entirely impossible for people who do not grow up in these subcultures to actually understand your reaction patterns, and the pathology that comes with growing up in a culture of violence, especially as a man. These people will view you with suspicion and some will ostracise you for simply acting in a way that they grew up with viewing as wrong, but I grew up with not only being right, but a necessity for survival.

[@rachLXXVII]

The problem is that it’s a subculture of high levels of psychological trauma, affecting children, women and men, in an endless cycle. I’d imagine that’s why it’s futile trying to police or incarcerate away the problems. A traumatised brain only really does survival. Sounds like you got out though?

[@mrror8933]

The welfare state further facilitates such behaviours, while leftists promote such behaviours as cool.

[@Bluegrl77]

Think Jordan Peterson said it perfectly. Children who didn’t grow up “acting /mimicking” a certain trait, are unlikely to do such actions as adults. My question to you, now that you’ve acknowledged the disfunction of your past experiences, are you more likely or less likely to repeat or “mimic” the same experiences? My question is sorta self-serving and I’m genuinely curious. Reason for my curiosity, if you’re interested….. *My husband grew up in the Bronx and Newark, NJ USA… not the greatest of places. Recently, he said after his bday a few days ago. “Can’t believe I’m 45, I never thought I’d make it to this age, all I used to hear was….you’re gonna up dead or in prison. So, I never saw myself as a middle aged man… now what?” Felt helpless because I grew up in a completely different world. That’s why I’m curious to know what your thoughts were… thanks

[@Bluegrl77]

@@Dude0000 Yes he’s Cuban & Puerto Rican…. which is sorta funny considering I failed Spanish twice in HS. 😏 I often joke it’s probably why we’re divorcing… he’s over here speaking Spanish and saying… “she never seems to listen or understand me like she used to.” 🤦🏼‍♀️

[@AA-be9rn]

The studies into Microdosing LSD /shrooms phycedelics shows amazing therapy for this very reason.

[@thomazperroni3920]

I've never seen such a great comeback. The man is not even 100% yet and has already produced more relevant things than everybody else. He really lives up to what he teaches.

[@Carlitos1993]

When the science is anchored in truth...it works.

[@chelseapoet3664]

Speaking of comebacks: in a totally different field of human endeavour, I was also very impressed by Tyson Fury's comeback from suicidality, obesity and multiple addictions to the world heavyweight boxing championship.

[@benlewis5312]

​@@chelseapoet3664 That's one of the greatest comeback stories ever. Fury's comeback and Ngannou's escape from Africa are bound to be movies one day

[@brienmaybe.4415]

@@Carlitos1993 So you know you're it and not the concept thereof?

[@suzangrant7656]

@@brienmaybe.4415 Please would you fill out your statement to @Carlos Acosta a bit more, I would like to understand what you are asking.

[@TheWiseElder]

Theodore’s use of the word fuck to make the prisoner change his mind about using the word himself was awesome! The story was amazing and I will likely use the technique on one of my children eventually lol

[@lucycollins5317]

lllllll

[@soulflame799]

be careful, children like swearwords and might think their dad is a cool guy! lol

[@multitablez]

it was great to see those two doctors laugh over that lmao

[@Alex-xf8pl]

I never thought an Englishman would be able to make it sound so genuine.

[@fukluk88]

What's the timestamp on that please? I missed it and well, I should probably use it less as it is my favorite word.

[@maudegonne3740]

Dr Daniels is a gem, totally free of ideological taint. He speaks from experience and from his heart.

[@MariaPerez-uv8mm]

Totally agree!

[@grizzlygrizzle]

"Sentimentality is to empathy what kitsch is to art." What a brilliant analogy.

[@michaellanderfelt6903]

This is truly Dr Peterson Gold !! So interesting !!

[@Thunderrolls]

​@@grizzlygrizzleha! I also noted down that banger of a line! If I'm not mistaken, it kind of looked like he came up with it on the spot. As if, right before he was pushed into wrapping up the general thought, he felt he had to wrap it in a presentable, generous ribbon and bow, so he quickly consulted his arsenal of rhetorical constructions for the ideally fitting container, and off the cuff, with expert practice, formulated those powerful words. The courtiers of the Renaissance were versed in that lost art of a similar, potent mixture of heavy-hitting, intellectual rumination, with an astounding precision of language. They also injected wit and charm, ofc. But this fellow sure knows how to communicate. That's that old school British swag. Not exactly "banter," which is hilarious nonetheless. This, this is more like verbal jazz. Jazz of the mind. Playing jazz with thoughts. Just wish Jordan let the charming fellow solo some more. Well, hopefully next time.

[@banditnip0345]

I love how Theadore has a genuine laugh and doesn't take things too seriously. I really enjoyed the whole podcast. I usually have a hard time staying interested in podcasts but found this discussion very informative & interesting.

[@johnnyboyvan]

Just like the Dalai Lama.

[@helenachase5627]

I agree

[@setlharetrust5661]

I'd like more time to hear what he has to tell. Dr Peterson takes up too much of his time.

[@ChrisGBaker]

Having clawed my way out of the underclass, and aspiring not to fall back into the pit described here; I feel compelled to say, thank you for putting these cultural contradictions into words and challenging us all to think through the secondary and tertiary order of the effects of our’s and our government’s actions and policies. Bravo! Bravo!!

[@linmal2242]

Well said, and agreed, a great conversation. How it's conclusions could be implemented is the question.

[@ItsameAlex]

45:00 That's complete bullshit, there IS a clear connection between iq and anti-social behaviour.

[@paulamccarthy9511]

@@ItsameAlex Are you saying low IQ equals anti-social behavior? Because if that’s the case, then why do many serial killers have higher then average IQ and exhibit anti-social behavior?!

[@ItsameAlex]

@@paulamccarthy9511 most petty crime is low iq

[@darianelgert7511]

@@ItsameAlex Surely there is a gradient of antisocial behavior? What I mean is, wouldn't there be typical low IQ antisocial behavior and typical high IQ antisocial behavior? Petty crime would be in the low IQ section, and maybe some form of high functioning psychopathy at the high end of the IQ gradient.

[@MaryQueenOfDots]

Omg you had Fry and now Theodore Dalrymple, I think I’m going to die from complete and utter happiness. Thank you 🙏🏼 😊

[@FlavioDeFeo]

These recent guests are like my dream line up! It’s amazing 🔥

[@carlh-thehermitwithwi-fi679]

agreed.! AGREED!

[@sminter7521]

RIP

[@advocate1563]

Thought exactly the same thing. Both fine thinkers and writers.

[@MaryQueenOfDots]

And the great thinker McGilchrist too. 🙌🏼

[@gnomeache2926]

As a waiter some of my coworkers would use the F word extremely frequently. When I inquired as to why, they would typically respond that they could not help it. So I would ask them what the guests at their tables thought of it. This was eye opening for them as they of course did not speak that way in those circumstances, and so realized that they could indeed help it.

[@tamirundell8392]

I learn something new every time I watch Jordan Peterson.

[@alanalycan3986]

Me too ! 🥰

[@robbie_]

Dr Daniels is an unendingly interesting man. This talk could have been twice as long and I still wouldn't have been bored.

[@ajs41]

I'd recommend reading all of his books, including his travel books from the 80s and 90s. Totally fascinating.

[@dirtrockground4543]

I know right? This man casually dropped his hobby of traveling to wore-torn countries for fun and navigating them by public transit, before cell phones! Who does that?!

[@user-yg2gw4je8d]

@@dirtrockground4543 - the sort of guy who tells a violent prisoner to stop swearing.

[@OnceTheyNamedMeiWasnt]

I agree, he really is fascinating and fun to listen to and a really cool guy.

[@jacquelinecastillo6854]

Agreed

[@garyhosty9874]

I worked briefly for Dr Daniels in Birmingham many years ago - he was always interested, realistically kind and a rewarding senior colleague to learn from. Very funny and incidentally always honest.

[@nelliedean7088]

I think he means City Hospital and Winston Green Prison in BIrmingham. I always thought it was odd they are right beside one another.

[@colinpowis3600]

If you're interested in psychology and especially criminality you may be interested in some of the events that have befallen me in regards to serial killer(s) youtube sunday night / Ivan Milat

[@ajs41]

My mother was at medical school with him in the late 60s/early 70s, and also went on the Comex trip to India in 1969, which is how I know about him, and I've been reading his books for about 20 years now. He's one of the best essayists around. It annoys me how he doesn't get any time on mainstream media in the UK because he's wrongly denounced as being an extreme right-winger.

[@garyhosty9874]

@@nelliedean7088 yes thats right - he was a working as a Psychiatrist at All Saints hospital which is close to Winson Green and he covered the Poisons Unit at City hospital where the people who had taken overdoses often had very sad stories to tell

[@davidnoot4995]

Beautiful and high quality interview. My wife is in graduate school to be a therapist. She keeps talking about how they are taught that they should have a social justice role in society. I don’t know if I can convince her to find the time right now(she also works full time) to watch this. I’d like her to see this side of it. She just has to watch it at some point.

[@sagasfromthesea4676]

The dialogue is so necessary. Would appreciate an update on how it goes! Sounds weird on KZbin comments maybe, but your comment really struck me

[@JulesBartow]

Good luck with that. My friend is a therapist and refuses to listen to Kermit the 🐸 because he's "alt-right" ... the closed mind of the liberally educated "open-minded". I just want to beat some sense into her with a 🦞 lobster. An idea 💡gets in a person's head and won't budge.

[@zarlok5294]

David N. What might be a practical description of a “social justice role” and what would it be intended to achieve?

[@subliteral1380]

I'm saddened to hear the direction that your wife's school has taken. I hope she can find the time to listen to a different perspective. Therapy is about the individual. A "social" approach to a single person's unique combination of traits and experiences completely misses the point. How could that possibly be effective?

[@everythingisupsidedown9593]

Be ready for the divorce. No way you can survive with such a women. Be prepared, as her 'I want a divorce' will come out of the blue. Good luck.

[@abhijit.121]

Dr. Daniels' anecdote about developing an emotional distancing from the unpleasant experience by planning how he was going to write about it - echoes something similar that Victor Frankl writes about in his "Man's Search for Meaning". He said that whilst he was in the Nazi concentration camps, one of the things that kept him from becoming despondent and giving up hope was the thought of getting out and writing about his experiences. It gave him real strength to forbear the atrocities that he underwent and had to witness around him.

[@plekkchand]

One of the most gifted non-fiction writers today- thanks for having him on.

[@saiejagar6734]

@@steven5054 can I know why you said that

[@ajs41]

The truth is the two of them are not really on the same wavelength (in my opinion) but because they're both very patient and considerate towards each other, they manage to keep the conversation going in an interesting way, which a lot of other people might not have been able to do in those circumstances.

[@bellezavudd]

@@steven5054 Very few people have the level of Dr Sacks talents.

[@alan2609]

Jordan’s been putting together a catalogue of conversations with legends! Keep them coming Doc, they are profoundly life-affirming and much appreciated 😁

[@solaveritas2]

I feel like I'm getting an education by listening to his podcasts, and I love it.

[@pleroma49]

@@dhaltonmiller1215 I actually think he is better now. Not as high pitched and fast paced...but rather deliberately deliberate and more heart than head. Listen to what he said...he listened to the book at 2.5 times its normal speed. Most people don't process information that fast. His old lectures were simulating but I think these are more imprinting.

[@mztwixed]

I hope he has a chance to meet and video chat with Ronald Bernard and Kevin Annett.

[@enigmaticone6559]

@@jcclarkeru True, but a lot of the reason I watch these is to see how Jordan tries to integrate what is being said into his worldview or at least an understandable worldview that we can appreciate, even if he talks a little too much sometimes.

[@AlxMarquez85]

@@jcclarkeru not only he interrumps constantly, he often does it when the interviewee is about to say something important.

[@briansmidt8839]

One cannot listen to a Jordan Peterson interview without learning things! Insightful questions that makes for an interesting experience. Jordan Peterson rocks! We are all blessed by his mind and heart.

[@harrywhite7287]

Thank you both. This is the kind of discussion that has the potential to make the world a better place.

[@harrywhite7287]

@@CONEHEADDK Last time I saw a report on homelessness in CA I thought "What if they started at one end of skid row and worked on each person individually to help them get off drugs and into housing". Instead of these sweeping reforms that do nothing.

[@alinemarinho9174]

Im Brazilian, from the north and this is our reality, the public politices are taken from the sentimentalism, in the lower classes the education is terrible, now Im studying psycology in the university and the marxist doutrine is simply the undouthbout thruth, is very Sad. Thank u Jordan and Theodore for the generosity.

[@asmoncat5049]

TRUE

[@Tawahaj]

Do you mean classic marxism, or woke capitalist LGBT stuff?

[@EliVieira]

@@Tawahaj She probably means both. The upper echelons of media institutions are mired in woke stuff. The universities have been cesspools of Marxism in the humanities for a long time.

[@asmoncat5049]

@@Tawahaj classic Marxism and woke activism. Woke capitalism isnt a thing in Brazil, not yet.

[@Tawahaj]

@@asmoncat5049 You lucky bastards. In the west those "revolutionaries" are just tools of the billlionaires at this point. Total symbiosis.

[@andrewyim7228]

I first learned about Theo Dalrymple from a Thomas Sowell column. I’ve highlighted so many keen observations in his books that they practically glow in the dark 😅. Thank you for having him on your podcast. This is a real treat.

[@andrewyim7228]

@UCTH_1kSdhSmZe9Yc5MTJvWw I would recommend Life at the Bottom because I still remember this one quote from the essay called “We don’t want no education”. He said something like you need to tolerate a degree of boredom in order to develop worthwhile skills and education can’t always be fun and entertaining.

[@sminter7521]

@@andrewyim7228 Thats a good quote

[@andrewyim7228]

@@sminter7521 Isnt it? You can read the original essay online if you google ‘Theo dalrymple we don’t want no education’

[@magneticbehavior]

if JBP gets a thomas sowell podcast i’m gonna lose my shit.

[@joelpierce1453]

@@magneticbehavior I would love to see that. Seems like something that could very much be arranged.

[@autumnleaves2766]

I have read several of Theodore's books, he is superb and should be more widely read in the UK and beyond. This is another outstanding interview, a great meeting of minds. I cannot get enough of Jordan Peterson's interviews on here. Having one's mind stimulated like this is really uplifting. Thanks for these excellent interviews.

[@milokaz2753]

I always learn and grow as a clinical psychologist and also simply as a human being by listening to Mr. Peterson's podcasts . I'm greatufl for these two gentlemen.

[@bingosantamonica]

"Your behavior is the reason of your unhappiness". Let that sink in.

[@sweetnessglyc]

Then you wallow into self loathing because you're the reason for your unhappiness, even though you know better... and then you have to remember t treat yourself as someone you love, as the 12 rules go

[@pandaloon6083]

Stealing a person's agency is an all-too frequent crime committed by well-meaning people.

[@alanalycan3986]

This is exactly what I tell my delinquent, abusive ex. He's 40 now. He doesn't seem to have any plans to change his toxic behaviour

[@Pneumanon]

"Lots of people have become stars in their own soap opera". Yep! I grew up in a lower middle class/working class/poor area. I've known so many people that fit that description perfectly. Their entire lives are about creating drama for themselves and everyone around them.

[@craigwillms61]

Do not get caught up in their drama. It'll suck you in and you'll be dealing with pure nonsense. I can be very tough when it's people you are related to or nominally like.

[@stevensarson482]

The analogy is complete when you add the costume of fashion and the soundtrack of anthem based or violence ridden ‘music’. Thankfully ,for most people, life runs through a great many episodes and series and with luck you get to change the narrative.

[@discodynamitetnt2938]

Jesus

[@LemmingAttack]

I object to this viewpoint, actually. I think it's just as true for a lot of upper class people. Lower class people don't have a monopoly on delusion. Colonialism, for example, gave rise over time to a very many wealthy, well-off people who believe they had the burden of civilizing the world - "The White Man's Burden." Instead of being in a soap opera, they saw themselves as saviors, heroes for the poor and stupid people of the world, whether they were poor and stupid or not. I think this is cherry picking from an ivory tower.

[@Pneumanon]

@@LemmingAttack I agree that there is an air of superiority from Mr Dalrymple throughout this interview. I also agree that the wealthy have their own fantasies- everyone does. The difference in my experience is that the 'wealthy' have the ability to mobilise toward their goals/ambitions/fantasies and live them out to a much greater degree (as you point out). The lower classes do not have that ability. Increasingly deprived of meaningful work, and living in a culture which promotes material consumption as the primary measure of personal value, the 'lower classes' are forced to focus on the attainment of short term gratification (sex, entertainment, food, drugs, status/attention) as the method of experiencing personal meaning and value. Meanwhile the long term picture presents the somewhat painful reality that nothing is going to change very much at all in their lifetime- there's nothing to look forward to. I think this tends to reduce the focus on long term consequences/outcomes of short term actions, while interpersonal drama creates the feeling that something meaningful is happening, even if that 'something' is actually traumatic. Hence the "soap opera".

[@suttercane6718]

Loved the warmth and the way Dr Daniels has an easy laugh. Also honest, reasonable and a gentleman, a pleasure to listen to.

[@grios2301]

It's been so long since I needed Dr. Peterson's help that I forgot how much he still had to teach me. His book helped me a lot. Great podcast!

[@Alex-xf8pl]

“When you write about an experience, even an unpleasant experience, it distances you from that experience. So you’re not only having the experience, you’re observing having that experience.”

[@PauloNideck]

Very well put

[@logicalone1875]

"Grief brought to numbers cannot be so fierce; For he tames it, that fetters it in verse." John Donne, 1633 ("The Triple Fool")

[@windywednesday4166]

What excellent advice! ...and so true. It is a good way to get perspective on matters and keep an accurate record so your mind doesn't distort the situation.

[@faith9119]

Very well put. Writing is very useful for processing trauma and obtaining anew perspective.

[@Funaru]

Now this is a lovely crossover. Dalrymple is a brilliant commentator on the culture and everything else.

[@hornetguy9063]

This is a great Trump card book, too, because whenever someone accuses you of racism when describing the issues of welfare state mentality, you can cite this book. Since the people in the book are white

[@kdemetter]

@Steven Thompson Because if the assumption is that you are racist for criticizing the welfare state, citing a book that shows problems with the welfare state when it only involves white people, shows that your criticism wasn't necessary based in racism. It doesn't disprove racism though, it just means it can't be used as proof that you are ( granted, criticizing the welfare state shouldn't be proof of that to anyone honestly looking at it anyway. But it makes it somewhat harder for the dishonest ones to make the claim) I don't think it's that strong a point though. It would be better to stand on principle (innocent until proven guilty)

[@rarebird_82]

I love Dalrymples thinking, PJW cites him often in his political satire, hard hitting truthful philosophy, he's fascinating as are you. To see you both together is a real treat 🥰 Thank you JBP and TD bless you both x

[@lunarianpaladin6980]

You know this channel has got to be the only channel where I’ll rewatch podcasts

[@blenderguru]

Loved this. Two people who have talked to thousands of people with all manor of problems, explaining their findings.

[@kefcr]

And you, a third person I admire and am thankful for, dropping such a comment. How great it is to know and see that good people just amass together! ❤

[@hezkyden]

''manner'' not ''manor''

[@paddyjohnstone4744]

@@kefcr and

[@paddyjohnstone4744]

@@kefcr ///

[@paulregan9304]

@@Wellspring.speaking Well if no one corrects those mistakes the people making them won't find out that they're mistakes.

[@fisher5309]

“They turn themselves into stars of their own soap operas.. otherwise life is too plain and boring” How true is this observation of many. Great guest again. Thanks Dr Peterson.

[@sawtoothiandi]

yet this applies to D Peterson too? indeed everyone with a social media account?

[@h.m.7218]

Always trying to live up to their own appalling standards, which, they believe, constitute their true identity. Therefore, willing to change or improve anything on the path to a better integration would appear as betraying themselves. What a sad trap to fall into...

[@ahmadmohammed496]

@@sawtoothiandi Peterson had spent the majority of his life away from the public eye or with minimal contact,a lame soap opera don’t you think?

[@danielw5850]

Indeed! That had such resonance with me, because I've listened to many people, in recent years and their narrative feels precisely like they're imitating Coronation Street/EastEnders/Emmerdale/ (insert your country's Soap Opera"); a life led in verbal clichés!

[@sawtoothiandi]

@@danielw5850 mmm that rings a bell like their personality is iterations of tv characters..

[@jokeen4106]

His book was so difficult to read. It shed a light on the degradation that I was raised around. Sometimes, it was difficult to read. It's a moving book.

[@Adventure-of-your-Life]

Theodore Dalrymple seems like a wonderful and honest person. Really enjoyed learning from him.

[@joyharmon1110]

I love the story about pre-literate behaviors of children. I was one of those children who was blessed with a stack of children's books as tall as I was by the age of four. My mother tells a story about being in a waiting room, perhaps the doctor or dentist's office. She had bought along a book to keep me entertained while waiting. As I sat "reading" aloud, one of the other patients commented on how smart I was to be reading at such a young age. Mom says that she looked down and saw that the book was upside down!

[@kittybitts567]

God bless your Mom! She's a good Mom!

[@kathleenkalman4796]

That's how my kids were raised. My first was a book lover so there was a little basket of books in the bathroom, a basket of books in the car, there were books everywhere! I was raised with lots of books, too. My last name in Hungarian means book lover.

[@MrBrachiatingApe]

Same here. I grew up in a house that had a magnificent wall of bookcases that went the length of the living room, illuminated by floor to ceiling windows...approximately 2,500 volumes just in the living room, with another 1,500 in the garage, 1,000 or so in my brother's room, maybe 500 in my sister's, 250 in my mom and dad's...and a single, mean, 15" TV without cable until I was 16. We used to sit around and read our own books on weekend nights rather than watch movies, and I got books every single birthday and Christmas (in fact, the last Christmas I got any presents from my parents, I got clothes and books. Ditto my last birthday on which I got any gifts.) More than once, around age 2.5 to 3, I sat and wanted to read so badly that I would think I suddenly could because I had (according to my mom) an eidetic memory, though like most people born with such mine faded by the time I was 4 or 5. I'd recall the words that my mom read when I saw those particular pages and I'd recite the words, insisting I had suddenly, magically learned to read. Each time my mom or dad had to gently disabuse me of the notion...but once I could read, that's pretty much what I did day or night, in school or out. I spent most of elementary school far enough ahead of the curriculum (thanks to being educated at home by my dad) that I was allowed to go to the library and read whatever I wanted as long as I wrote something in response. I've read some books so many times that the worlds therein are in some way more real to me than, say, Nigeria or Bangladesh, places I've never been and will never go.

[@kathleenkalman4796]

@@MrBrachiatingApeFantastic! My daughter had it bad. To keep her healthy I had to kick her out, "Put down that book & go play outside!" And at night I had to take her light bulb with me or she'd stay up reading.

[@MrBrachiatingApe]

@@kathleenkalman4796 I used to open my door a crack and lie with just my legs in bed, elbows propped on the floor, reading until I got caught. :) I had a very low bunk bed, so I wasn't dislocating my spine or anything.) In grade school (when I was actually in class and not the library) I'd put my head down on my desk, open my book in my lap, and read bent like a pretzel for, well, all day. Thankfully, I could listen with one ear and raised my hand to answer questions enough that my teachers were...tolerant. I'm sure it looked odd, though, like a sleeping or terminally depressed kid's hand suddenly springing to life of its own accord.

[@fen4554]

This pace is staggering, I can't believe how productive he's being despite, or maybe because of the difficulties he's faced. Walking the walk.

[@PauloNideck]

Absolutely true

[@Adventure-of-your-Life]

This is one of the best podcast Dr Peterson has done. Awesome

[@kinnish5267]

LOL this doctor is hilarious sense of humor with great insights into the human psyche

[@senorjp21]

"Anything you think is necessary you're free to say" that got me choked up. How far we've slid

[@Cthuski]

Tbf he was asking if he was permitted to say fuck about 20 times in under 30 seconds not preparing to serve up a hot take

[@Cthuski]

@@dhaltonmiller1215 and asking if profanity is allowed on a program if it wasn't previously established is polite and indicitive of sophistication not a censorious tyranny

[@MrJdsenior]

I don't understand. Are you speaking to the PC nonsense with all the censorship of what you are 'allowed' to say, or is the profanity bothering you? I get really tired of this 'oh I'm offended, so you can't say that' absurdity. When did being offended become a nationally important level event? Get a grip people, being offended is NOT going to kill you. We are turning into a nation of entitled pansies that are afraid to have discourse on subjects that bother them, and employers that are frightened to death to have someone offended within their 'jurisdiction'. The inmates are running the asylum, just like with the social worker he spoke of, just doin' her job and collecting a paycheck, gives not one rat's *** whether she ever helps anyone, or not. There is a BIG difference between judging a person as to their worth, and differentiating actions that harm or hurt them. And there is also a big difference between assisting someone with a disease that requires help, and enabling the crap out of self destructive behavior, or worse, rewarding it. The latter is just plain stupid. It's kind of like the example of 'whole word' method of teaching reading he spoke about. They learned that monkey was the little primate, because the y had a tail like one. People are idiots, and the one's in charge are usually the bottom of the barrel, in that respect. Did I offend anyone? If so, tough crap.

[@senorjp21]

@@MrJdsenior I became emotional hearing the reason for the principal of freedom of speech being affirmed because freedom of speech has fallen into disrepute somehow. If I desire to understand you as well as possible I ask you to speak freely to me.

[@garymccray7822]

@@senorjp21 You are absolutely free to speak your mind and I will fight to the bitter end to defend that right. Free and open discourse is absolutely vital to a healthy and thriving society. You may not like what is being discussed, you may not agree with it, but no one has the right to silence it. No one.

[@gregnolan8572]

Thouroughly enjoyed this. I’m a psychotherapist in the uk and found it really refreshing to hear so much good sense from two clinicians

[@michaellamont2605]

Anything that goes left wing goes down hill

[@bellezavudd]

@@michaellamont2605 You have anything else, or just a life of meaningless slogans ?

[@michaellamont2605]

@@bellezavudd show me a country that did better after socialism. Once you learn morals or value them. You can't claim socialism is moral

[@bellezavudd]

@@michaellamont2605 Ok , so empty slogans really are your thing... 🤔 Fine , at least learn the basics. 1st off Left wing and socialism are not the same thing. "right” and “left” are vague categorisations of political ideology. What exactly each is will vary from country to country and have changed over time, but these days tend to refer to two types of ideological scale: economic and social.

[@michaellamont2605]

@@bellezavudd Left wing bigger government Right wing Smaller... Not rocket surgery. I'm sorry if learned different of some leftist at uni

[@ContinentsEdge]

Thank you very much Theodore Dalrymple. I appreciate this interview on many counts.

[@MariettaFarley]

As a child I lost my father when I was 8. He was military so we moved a lot while he was alive and I experienced that as an adventure that we experienced AS A FAMILY. When he died, clinging to my remaining family was instinctive, primal, survival.

[@seanpatrick7019]

I read "Spoiled rotten: The toxic cult of sentimentality" several years ago. It was my introduction to something I'd intuited for a long time, and my heart sang.

[@johnhanks4260]

Hold on fcol Yes there is this. But it i a sterotype from the authotitrian oeritoinsas sa styrerlotyped kis a stgerrotyhpe gfpo,m

[@philliasphog6689]

@@johnhanks4260 Strokistrokality

[@darena90]

The book "spoilt rotten:the cult of santimentality" explained to me as a foreigner the state of the British society today- for a long time my mind could not compute how this society once regarded as an example of reserved, sober minded and responsible people, has slid to its current state.

[@garethwigglesworth8187]

@@darena90 indeed

[@Kodopitharos]

We need one episode with Theodore just telling funny stories from conversations with inmates.

[@katiemccormick8846]

I worked in a similar milieu for many years and I thoroughly enjoyed his humor. I have a few stories too.

[@darbyheavey406]

He is widely published…WSJ, The Spectator, National Review…

[@lnc-to4ku]

Yes!!!

[@E.C.2]

Has Theo Dalyrimple written for Takimag before?

[@freddyfriesen]

It is such a treat to spend two hours visiting with these two knowledgeable and experienced gentlemen. I even learned a new word: censorious: severely critical of others

[@fancynancymacy]

Oh yes I will now whole heartedly be censorious

[@ajs41]

The truth is the two of them are not really on the same wavelength (in my opinion) but because they're both very patient and considerate towards each other, they manage to keep the conversation going in an interesting way, which a lot of other people might not have been able to do in those circumstances.

[@freddyfriesen]

@@ajs41 Yes, I do believe I referred to them as gentlemen.

[@Aubergine1941]

What they discussed about 58 min into the conversation is exactly my experience. I was a single mum. My boy was only 4 and I was in the lucky position of having a friend in the church who was happy to have him over night while I was doing night shifts (2 a week) in a residential home. Then I would pick him up, take him to school, get a few hours of sleep, pick him up again and have a few hours with him. Financially I was marginally better off then on benefits only. That was ok with me as I didn't think 'the world owed me a living'. I wanted to take responsibility for my needs as it was MY fault (not 'the world's') I married the wrong man. But then I got the flu. Really badly. A week in bed with hallucinations and a desire to die. I don't remember how I coped with caring for my boy. So I missed 2 nights of work. My employer told me I wasn't working enough hours to qualify for sick pay and my benefits had been reduced because I had earnings. And so that week I was left short. I know it sounds ridiculous but I was so at the border of poverty that I could not afford that. So I gave up work as I had more security on benefits. 😒

[@ilikechineseteaespeciallyj7262]

That's absolutely terrible. I'm so sorry to hear about that - the state really has a lot to answer for

[@ruthevans1249]

Who else missed Jordan Peterson when he was seriously ill...... I’m so glad we have his voice of reason back, hope all the Peterson’s health continues to improve. From a female listener from the UK 🇬🇧😁🤗

[@--Skip--]

I, for one, sorely missed Dr. Peterson.

[@pedrooliveira2089]

This episode should be watched by every single human being alive.

[@GooseOnTheLoose7]

Yes!!!!

[@StereoSpace]

I've been reading his essays at City Journal for 15 years. A very insightful human being, with a wealth of experience to share. Much that we can learn from, if we choose.

[@fabriciodurao2324]

🇧🇷 im a brazilian psychiatric. worked in public service and by now in military police. Theodore Dalrymple and jordan Peterson has a greant influence in my work.

[@nosuyyo]

Jordan, Jocko, Rogan, Schultz... Isn't it amazing that the most praised videos recently are those about amazing conversations with genuinely hard-working, incredibly interesting people?? There is hope people !!! :D

[@Stringz]

These people do not belong in the same category. These are all very different people, and most praised is subjective. Not that I dislike them, but there are things I dislike about all of them after about a decade listening to each of them… I mean besides Shultz who’s fairly new comparatively. Not sure how Shultz is in there, he ends up saying dumb shit also a lot. I guess he stands for some things but his ego is ridiculous and that kind of arrogance turns me off. Yeah anyway whatever I’m not even sure of what the point of this is. Never mind, haha. I need to go do things.

[@nosuyyo]

@@Stringz I know they don't have the same paths, not everyone is a psychologist or a veteran, or a comedian or commentator, but they are all bringing to the internet some of the most genuine, best quality conversations you don't have anywhere else. And yh Shultz is new, but he's blowing up like no other comedian right now and he doesn't just perform for the show, there is more to his comedy and business than "just another one".

[@AjGalloway95]

The algorithms have been improving exponentially since the pandemic I think the unbelievable influx of traffic and demand for outstanding content

[@mathman43]

@@Stringz Add Victor Davis Hanson to your list.

[@larryhaskell2889]

@@Stringz I find it very refreshing for you, or anyone, to freely admit “there are things I don’t like” about each. The is very congruent with my perspective of many people. It is absolutely possible to learn from anyone, IF you’re open to the potential value of everyone you come into contact. Bottom line, I don’t believe I have ever found I agreed with everything espoused by some very learned professionals. In my mind, no one is perfect. I truly enjoy the dialogue of JP and his guests. A rare thing in today’s world!

[@murielbrown3013]

i really love the humility and self efacement shown by Dr Daniels.

[@sunflower-oo1ff]

I think Peterson has also learned a few things for himself if he dares to admit it.... he did cut him off too many times for my own taste, but otherwise, an incredible interaction 👌thank you Dr Peterson to invite such a...I can’t think of how to qualify this person, he is so incredible in so many ways....

[@nataliek5134]

Very British of him 😊

[@coreycox2345]

Muriel Brown, I think these are the same qualities that make his sometimes controversial comments believable as compassionate and objective. I find his writing excellent.

[@rickfranks4154]

For all the grimness of the subject it was good to see Dr Daniels still had a good sense of humour.

[@SteelSculptor]

So much content teaches people how to stay where they are. The message of "you are perfect and don't need to change for any reason" is poison. Keep up the great work! Your mission to educate the largest number of people is succeeding. Your move out of university, that sacrifice, is appreciated. Thank you Mr. Peterson.

[@inevolution1]

Wonderful point drawing contrast to new age thinking… thank you..

[@irawhitlock1084]

Favorite guest so far.

[@Christmas7731]

I work in an A&E (Emergency room for the Americans) in the south of England and this guy's descriptions of his time in the prison fits my work day perfectly. What an interesting interview

[@loubou4043]

OMG....listening to these two brilliant humans makes me feel that I should not lose hope....even if our civilisation is being corrupted in these dark times.......thanks Jordan and Dr Daniels

[@michaellanderfelt6903]

Amen !!

[@ajalvin2012]

💯 agree 👍

[@thatwasprettyneat]

This was absolutely fascinating to me, and I'm glad you two had this discussion. It's a relief to see that there are other people who think the same way I do, instead of the false reality (which no one actually believes) that the media presents us with.

[@thatwasprettyneat]

@@lisaharris452 Mainstream media presents a false reality through propaganda. That's what I'm referring to. They sell a narrative. Everybody sells a narrative, but I think this one is much more aligned with reality than the one the media (meaning television largely) sells us.

[@thatwasprettyneat]

@@lisaharris452 you're welcome, ma'am

[@MCR1565]

Great conversation! Wow! Thanks for taking the time. 🙏💖🙏

[@tedgalacci8428]

I could sense Dr. Dalrymple's exceptional gratification at actually talking to someone who could understand what he was about.

[@PauloNideck]

Exactly

[@heatherc1563]

Or rather somebody educated that actually knows what he's talking about. Those who lived this life and have an average or above IQ it makes perfect sense and fall under the no 💩 category.

[@sunflower-oo1ff]

👌

[@heatherc1563]

@@sunflower-oo1ff is that an expression of agreement or doubt?

[@sunflower-oo1ff]

@@heatherc1563 agreement ;)

[@TetelestaiAD33]

Beard Jordan, Best Jordan. We missed you Canada Dad.

[@bigjamesgraham2656]

King of Canadia

[@Hitthatvape]

Canada dad is the best dad anyone could hope for!

[@TheShootist]

scruffy Jordan > spiffy Jordan

[@seanmoran6510]

Prefer clean cut Jordan But each to there own.

[@TheShootist]

@@seanmoran6510 Jordan needs a beard for the same reason Old Honest Abe needed a beard.

[@jmcguire5548]

Magnificent content. Thank you Dr. JP.

[@tracycameron5099]

shocking, devastating, heartwarming, self-affirming, terrifying...immediate reactions. ages of wisdom, moments of beauty, and peace. so thankful for this.

[@anonnnnnsh]

Tracy Cameron - If you aren't a writer, you should be.

[@D4n1t0o]

Dr Daniels is such a cheerful chap, interested in telling his stories and laughing, but Professor Peterson keeps getting really into the psychology of it. I love Prof Peterson, but I kind of wanted to just listen to Dr Daniels go on, he's so full of interesting experience!

[@thehonestscribbler9531]

He conducted a wonderful interview with Dr Stephen Blackwood of Ralston College 'Theodore Dalrymple on Turgenev's "Fathers and Sons"

[@AdamBechtol]

Aye

[@galaxytrio]

Agreed. I also appreciated his chatty good humour and stories. A pity the conversation had to end.

[@hankroest6836]

He tells many stories in many talks in many KZbin videos.

[@sunflower-oo1ff]

@@hankroest6836 thanks I will definitely look him up some more, he is so refreshing in some weird ways... I feel so positive after listening to him!

[@lrij3803]

Incredibly grateful to have such a constant flow of fantastic discussion, unbelievably thrilled to have you back Dr Peterson!

[@philipcrouch]

Great show Dr. Peterson! It is good to see two people with clinical experience talking about these matters in a manner that takes the problems seriously.

[@helenadavidova5516]

I feel so lonely i have no oeople around me to talk with me this way.People tend to get irritated when you pose questions and doubt answers.I feel so lonely.. .yet grateful there are people like them..

[@studiolightmotiv5541]

Theodore Dalrymple is an amazing writer ("Sweet waist of America" being my favourite book ever), and I am so grateful to Jordan to bring on such extraordinary people!

[@chrisschey7818]

Thanks for that! I didn't know that one.

[@heatherduncan4945]

You all are killing me with the reading lists. The stacks of books at my bed sid is getting ridiculous. Guess I do need a Kindle but like the feel of a real book and easier on the eyes.

[@RavBarring]

I read the book by Theodore. I grew up in a neighborhood of people that lived at the ‘Bottom’. Everything written in that book is 100% accurate about Britain’s under class.

[@jonathansturm4163]

When we were leaving the UK in 1965 my mother described us as rats leaving a sinking ship! So glad we moved to Australia.

[@Seascape44]

As a single parent i found my way through with three young children, on benefits, retrained and after 4 years began a professional career, received less money , running a car, paying for school dinners, and all else that comes with being independent. My son's sense of poverty came from being a child receiving free school dinners, so I immediately lifted him up from that agony. Within a few years my pay and status increased. Yes it did aggravate me that many single mums were working on the side and had more disposable income and time on their hands than I did. In exchange I moved forward in life. I went through the same process of being a social worker and having to leave after 25 years, suffocating under the principles of those institutions you describe.

[@vednagarcia2071]

Very interesting conversation. Thank you for interviewing Dr. Daniels.

[@PauloNideck]

That’s one of the best podcasts on JP channel for sure.

[@xiphophilos]

Agree, and kudos to Peterson for letting the man talk! JPB is so used to going on lengthy explanations of what exactly it was he was figuring and thinking and experiencing, and he certainly does have a lot of important things to say, but I am very happy to see that he now also has figured out the role of hosting a podcast that isn't about him.

[@ZephaniahL]

@@xiphophilos I don't disagree--but I did sense that he bit his tongue sometimes. Wouldn't one real test of whether he has figured out that role be if he has Daniels back on? If it's a one and done, that might suggest that Peterson was less than impressed -- unless Daniels, who seems retiring, really has said everything he has to say about these massive subjects in an hour and 55. Some people do prefer to write than to speak, I realize.

[@Pacdoc-oz]

Jordan grated on me a little this episode, his active listening was too rapidly filtered through the lens of his unfolding theories and he interrupted at times when I was expecting to hear the fruit of Dr Daniels reflections on his experience. Listen to yourself on this track, Jordan and if you agree could you please invite him to talk with you again.

[@TheFailedmessiah]

Jordan was great here.

[@anopinion3469]

@@Pacdoc-oz Love Dr. Peterson; I do the same many times. I figure that he's presenting something, and hoping the other will add to a particular train of thought, to develop his world view further. He's basically new to being the interviewer instead of the interviewed, and he's used to both giving lectures, or conversing with various people. This set up would be hard for me to not want to share what I also know. As viewers, we all see the same thing, I've heard him call himself out on hoping to allow the other to speak more. heehee

[@mm-gg4hc]

"The more problems they made for themselves the more they were rewarded". --TD

[@FeedMeMister]

If you understand the structure of the UK welfare state, you understand that that is a literal statement on means-testing. It is easier for a chronic alcoholic to get funding for a drivers' test than someone merely looking to improve their employability.

[@cecilefox9136]

Incredible! Absurd!

[@vinlago]

@@FeedMeMister yes! An accident destroyed my spine but I cannot obtain benefits in America despite having contributed to the system for decades. If I wind up in jail or on drugs or pregnant -- I would have a home, food and transportation. Because most people don't understand the system they assume either the church or government have it covered so they figure it's not their problem (unless one of us is sleeping on their property or they have to step over one of us on their way to work or to shop). It's silly.

[@kitbenson8078]

This discussion answers so many questions about certain aspects of our society. Total common sense!

[@akgh98]

Man, I already listen to this one 3 times, what a lovely gentleman

[@zalacainbilbao]

Theodore Dalrymple is one of my heroes. I followed his column in The Spectator for years. He is an extraordinary writer.

[@ancientfuture9690]

I grew up in an area like this in London in the 80's and 90's. I thought this was "normal" until I began to encounter other people who hadn't experienced this chaos. There was a constant tension in the environment that I was only able to identify as I got older and you had to decide whether you wanted to be 'Predator or prey'. Even to glance at somebody was considered a threat and was always met with a "What you faaackin' looking at?! You faaackin' looking at me?!" as if looking at somebody implied a threat of some kind. There was a complete lack of trust with people and cynical suspicion was the default state. I eventually moved out and had to consciously change (fight or flight) habits which felt strange but as I slowly learnt to let my guard down, it became such a relief. Great convo Dr. Peterson. Probably one of my favourites.

[@ajs41]

The problem is what I would call the democratisation of absolute freedom. (This is going to sound very snobbish to some people). It used to be that the more middle-class or upper-class you were, the more freedom you had to do whatever you wanted. Many people at the bottom of society lived very constrained lives until the 1960s and didn't have the same sort of freedom - it's true they had the same level of freedom as everyone else theoretically speaking, but practically they didn't, because of the huge social constraints of working-class culture. Suddenly, since the 1960s, people at the bottom of society have been given the same freedom as everyone else, and the horrible truth is that many of them haven't coped well with that freedom. They've used it to do a lot of self-destructive things, instead of using it to improve their lives.The reason is that it always takes time for people to get used to a particular way of living, and if you just suddenly change things, like what happened in the 1960s, many people won't be able to cope with it. Obviously, what I've just written can be portrayed as "snobbish" and looking down on poor people. And of course there have always been wealthy people who've behaved in irresponsible ways as well, to put it mildly. The same thing has happened in East Germany since it became part of Germany in 1990. Many people there, especially the older ones, haven't been able to cope living in a free society, and they vote for the ex-Communists because they hanker after the lifestyle they grew up under in which other people - ie. the Communist government - told them what to do most of the time.

[@jaybhipp8559]

I watched the whole podcast with great attention sometimes rewinding to understand something better - both gentlemen so wise, respectful and free from vanity - very inspiring, eyes-opening conversation! I will buy the book.

[@masterpep7218]

Wonderful talk, thank you for sharing. Been catching up which is virtually impossible with Dr Peterson's life work that is like a tidal wave of deep thought. The most productive person I know.

[@snap0179]

I’ve written my way through 913 days of not drinking alcohol, and it is totally transformative. I say that with my own experience as the proof, and I found that when my own experience became my own legitimate proof that it provided a fuel for life I hadn’t previously had. I’m very grateful, thank you for a wonderful conversation.

[@tonyc223]

Amazing how different the world is with a clean mind. Keep it up,it only gets better.....

[@ChessErwin]

Daniel:. ODAT, brother! As Tony C notes below, it ONLY gets better, WHEN/IF you do the work....Many blessings, sir.

[@zilksmooth]

Daniel, good news on your sobriety. Congratulations on your success and even though I don’t know you, hopes and prayers for your health and happiness

[@dixieflynn5368]

Good for you. I've been a friend of Bill W's for 45 years. Hang in there. I will remember your name and look for your publication someday!

[@snap0179]

@@dixieflynn5368 Wow that is so very kind. It is all so personal to me, however I’m trying to find a way to articulate what I’ve learned through the 12 steps. I’m figuring that out daily. Thank you, be well.

[@margaretmaeda2548]

Dr Peterson has introduced us to a fascinating person and I’m grateful. Dr Daniels is less fluent than Dr Peterson. Sometimes I would have liked Dr Peterson to give Dr Daniels a little more space to finish his thoughts. Dr Peterson’s analyses are fascinating, but Dr Daniels’s way of thinking is new to me and very interesting. I would like him to have been allowed to express himself more, even though his delivery was a bit less fluent and slower than Dr. Peterson’s.

[@sunflower-oo1ff]

Yes I feel the same way.... Dr Daniels had more to say or explained, but was too often cut off... otherwise awesome interview.

[@ahmadmohammed496]

Well he is a bit older,naturally you slow down a bit still a magnificent thinker and influential figure.

[@ajs41]

Anthony Daniels is very fluent, it's just that he talks more slowly, which is normal for English people as compared to North Americans.

[@margaretmaeda2548]

He’s more relaxed :-)

[@larakaljumaa5722]

Read his books. They are wonderfully accessible and compelling.

[@lordvoldemort4242]

Dr. Peterson is such a master at conservation, reflection of meaning and reflection of feeling are some things I learned because I'm a psychology student, and we do counseling as a requirement, and It's apparent he carries those qualities over from his clinical practice. So that is a great way to enhance and encourage conversation. He also seems prepared in the sense that he would have read the books of Dr. Anthony Daniel and knows how to structure his question for the most specific response that would bring the conversation in a desirable direction, and therefore achieve the aims of the podcast, not saying that he doesn't let the conversation flows spontaneously, in fact, that's another strategy Dr. Peterson uses in conversation, and it makes them all the more interesting, and spontaneity is a quality people like Joe Rogan has as well. Brilliant, I love you Jordan.

[@jackibortoft]

I love these civilised conversations between two people who have very different styles of thinking, such a pleasure to participate by hearing …

[@gideondejong350]

I had the pleasure to shake Mr Dalrymple's hand and have a short chat with him at the end of one of his book presentations (I believe it was "Our Culture. What's Left of It") at a Studium Generale of my university in the Netherlands. It should have been 2011 or so. What an admirable man he was and still is."Life at the Bottom" is a seminal work and should be read by anyone employed in the mental health industry (or "what's left of that").

[@coyoteunclean]

The distinction between "empathy" and "counter-productive sentimentality" is one of simple volition. While empathy is a passive attribute, counter-productive sentimentality is an active process of justifying bad policy while attempting to use "virtue" as a predicate.

[@jasonandlynnechambers3420]

empathy not passive.

[@user-gq8uq4zr1t]

Thanks indeed for the truthful feeling So many in need of emotional healing Truth is the deed of spiritual meaning Noble knights in aid of those needing

[@12many4you]

That could be a pretty good distinction and i would love it if Jason could argue against it. . Why is empathy not passive?

[@timothybrown820]

I started reading Life at the bottom a couple of weeks ago because Thomas Sowell recommended it and it is a fantastic analysis of the behavior and patterns of people stuck in the lower classes of our society. As a person from the middle class who struggled with some of the same behaviors as a young man, I found my way through years of therapy. Dalrymple's observations are on point and exactly what we need to address the pathology running so rampant in all areas of our society.

[@muffindog3113]

What a wonderful person you brought to us. Thanks JP.

[@ruizhang2452]

"Marie Antoinetteism" is a well captured phenomenon. Ring true to me of some glamorous WOKE royal 👑 we are hearing of these days.

[@user-yg2gw4je8d]

Indeed. And the current royal brat lacks the decency to provide a complementary cake.

[@ruizhang2452]

They share their "suffering" in their privileged life, expecting for admiration from the poor, of how much they despise (thus above) their privilege. Must be really fun to suffer nothing and speak for the suffering.

[@cloudybeforerain7134]

I don’t doubt that Harry has had a difficult time in the wake of his mother’s death. However, he was on a good trajectory until he met the Divorced American Actress. Since then, it’s been a shit show..

[@arashzarrabi9695]

You my friend, hit the nail on its head!

[@sooneatyOrchids]

So true!

[@patriciakimball8150]

The Doctor is such a love. Astounding creature.

[@hollybinnington7600]

I love his dry sense of humour, "They wanted to cut costs and get rid of this creative writer, he asked me to write in his favour which I did and it sealed his fate, of course" lol

[@edsonjairalvarezvargas7082]

It's really hard to talk about the real, harsh problems of society. A lot of respect and admiration for both. And again, thank you for educating us.