Life Without Men: The 4B Movement

[@Ultravenom1]

"Our birthrates are down because of a small amount of radical women, not because of corporate consolidation of the entire country!"

[@TreeHairedGingerAle]

😅 They are constantly and consistently blaming the wrong things, while simultaneously clinging to the colonial and corporate power structures that are _demonstrably_ killing us and this planet 😟

[@Name..........]

Actually birthrates are down because of the rising poverty rates along with the larger 1% of the planet holding the majority of the wealth....u can't have kids if you can't even afford to feed your self

[@espeon871]

If theres something a conservative and capitalist system gonna do its to deflect while calling the defectors of a system the issue while ignoring the real issue

[@gregvs.theworld451]

@@TreeHairedGingerAle Dude in America, I've noticed this too. Feels infuriating that I can see what's holding us back, but other dudes don't get it and many seemingly don't want to get it.

[@MuhammadAlkomy]

​@@TreeHairedGingerAle you really think that a democratically run oil company will care about nature more ?

[@NeighborhoodOfBlue]

Pregnancy does more than cause pain and cause health complications, it ages your body. If you don't have access to proper nutrition it can impact bone density. The lack of health/ sex ed in schools is a cost to us all, with so many poorly informed on issues that many are too embarrassed to inform themselves on. It's hard to even evaluate what it is that you don't know.

[@Ayem427]

THIS, like my Mom literally got a freak blood clot during her first one and almost died, pregnancy isn't something to be taken lightly or for granted, and it's absolutely insane that cis women are expected to just go along with that, regardless of their own desires

[@coffeize4829]

My mother got a epidural for me and my brother, witch made her back horrible, her bones and legs hurt every day, she has painful varicose veins is very thought giving birth.

[@apersonwhohasnothing]

My mother did not get it too bad like almost dying but she did get diabetes and all her teeth started falling out. Pregnancy really does take a toll on your quality of life and there is a big chance that you will never recover from it. Not to mention how all the responsibility of raising the children falls back on to the mother always, which leads to more stress.

[@vidarrimini5109]

@@apersonwhohasnothing Oh gods, same with the teeth. I feel for my mum so much, she was so young, in so much pain and so self-conscious that she never wanted to laugh or smile open. I literally ruined her, it hurts.

[@Dead_Inside_And_Out]

The fuck you laughing at?​@@jonjonsovich1420

[@capnbarky2682]

I'm a dad and husband. I bust my ass to be a provider, my body has been driven to extreme levels of exhaustion playing and carrying my daughter, doing things around the house, going to work. I started going to the gym just so my back wouldn't break with how much time I spend with my toddler. When I get home from work I'm doing chores, I don't get a break until she's asleep. The idea that there are men getting by expecting a woman to carry their child when they can't even decorate, clean or do laundry is infuriating. Almost all of my friends who have gotten married are divorced now and I always saw it coming a mile away when they have kids and the guy just wants to shut himself in the basement to play call of duty when he gets home.

[@susannehuber3996]

SIR, I APPLAUD YOU. ❤❤❤❤❤ your wife is an extremely lucky woman.

[@capnbarky2682]

@@susannehuber3996 She's really lucky cause our daughter is in our life and we love her but she's just as exhausted as I am most days b/c she's a stay at home mom, I can't really alleviate that at all. It's just crazy to me that people could treat having kids as some side quest when even if you put in the maximum effort you're going to end up in really miserable situations, or think it's fair if one person is way more tired. I was in a headspace when we were having kids that I was going to be tired and worn out all the time and that if I wasn't that meant I wasn't trying hard enough. Like if a man really wants kids they gotta be projecting how ready they are to have their bodies absolutely wrecked carrying that kid for hours at a time and getting screamed at and dealing with hormonal changes and scary doctor's visits and all their money going to that kid. That's the bare minimum at this point.

[@aship-shippingshipshipsshippin]

then what is your wife doing?

[@capnbarky2682]

@@aship-shippingshipshipsshippin Raising her for the 8 hrs im not there, cooking, cleaning, shopping for us,

[@Hinson3000]

@@capnbarky2682 you got really lucky. A lot women don’t want raise a home while the man is busting there ass. A lot women just want the man to work than use his money to go buy bags and luxury goods and sit around just because they can give you sex. My friends marriages also failed and it’s sad .I always tell them sex isn’t enough for a relationship. Love is work and no ones wants to put it in. They expect it to be easy but I just look at my parents and I’m like damn this shit is beautiful but difficult.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

This movement will be a separate semester in Gender Studies one day.

[@hjeriz]

How online platforms promote radfem propaganda?

[@botanicalitus4194]

@@hjerizthe movement is not radfem, its radical but not "radfem". The people who engage with it online can be toxic but this is true for literally every single thing that is discussed online, the actual meat of the movement is the ways korean women are supporting each other in real life, finding ways to live independently from traditionalism, and reclaiming their autonomy both personally and legally. And thats what should be discussed most when talking about the movement

[@babybee2025]

@@hjeriz this isnt rad fem. women just wanna be safe.

[@hjeriz]

@@babybee2025 this is basicity repacked political lesbianism.

[@hjeriz]

​@@babybee2025 this is basically repacked political lesbianism -- the online phenomenon not the korean one. We have been here before, we know whats wrong with this and yet 3/4 decades later we still dont call it out.

[@lisa6356]

I don't think this is just a trend. I believe the more women talk about this, the more women will want to leave men alone. This movement started a conversation among women and the gaslighting we feel we can see that others are going to it.

[@Babyblue115]

4N movement let' go

[@luisapaza317]

Yep. Not a trend, that is understimating and minimizing this political action. Hope women in South Korea (and in the world) get really trascendental advances in equality. For real

[@thepagecollective]

The fact is, men don't want women, either.

[@threeofeight197]

I think the best take away is that it’s better to be alone than to be with a partner who doesn’t share your values. Male or female or anyone in between. It’s a good thing that we’re no longer required to form traditional families if we don’t want to.

[@gregvs.theworld451]

@@thepagecollective I don't know if your angle here is societal observation or misogyny, but I think you may be right. A lot of the dudes who get mad over women not wanting them and degrade and deride and put down women for considering not being with men don't even attempt to consider what the women are saying, and I never see them say anything about why they want women or what they even like about women, they seemingly just feel rage that women don't want *them* like they're *supposed to* by their divine rite of being born female. It does make me wonder if a lot of the dudes getting pissy at women telling them to step up or get left behind even like women. Maybe if more dudes talked about women and acted towards women in a way that suggested they see their value, worth, and beauty, that they desire, want, respect, and value womens company, style, thoughts, contributions, etc., maybe we wouldn't have such a sharp gender divide we're seeing. Recently I've considered that, if men talked to and about women the way I tend to see lesbians talk about women, just about how they adore everything about women, I think it very well may be the case that there'd be a lot of dudes who'd be finding girlfriends and getting laid instead of being angry misogynists and incels online.

[@guessmyname1246]

Despite not growing up in Korea my parents still lived with Korean attitudes so despite my mom ebing the SOLE breadwinner, she was the one who actually took care of us She was the one who cooked, did laundry, cleaned, grocery shopped, took us to school, etc, etc While my dad sat around and watched tv I dont want to have a life like that

[@user-od5fh3gn4d]

Yep. The men expect the women to do all the sh1tty grunt work while the men are scrolling for new hot flesh online. Miserable existence. These men would be happier with female robots, and they WILL replace women with robots as soon as they can.

[@handlebar4520]

richard watterson aah dad

[@djotchuiangela9955]

​@@handlebar4520 no Richard Watterson was one of my favourite characters

[@sriharshacv7760]

The scenario where women earn higher than men in general doesn't help either. That kills the negotiating power of men and makes relationships meaningless.

[@AdumbDriver]

​@@sriharshacv7760If relationships lose meaning the moment you feel like you can't use money to attract women, maybe you should start looking at yourself as a person.

[@JennyNobody]

The idea of 2019 being a long time ago is making me feel the oldest I have ever felt

[@SemekiIzuio]

Covid f us over for a while, we literally lost time for us. For me those years are a blank, I was busy working as an essential worker but couldnt form an real memories that werent repetitive work days routine.

[@foxpro3002]

yeah, its crazy, I'm now a fully young adult and it only felt like three years.

[@nasifkhan8959]

tbf u will always be the oldest u have ever been

[@_VISION.]

It's not that long ago, they just have adhd

[@JennyNobody]

@@nasifkhan8959 but i didnt feeeeeeeel it xD

[@webweaver222]

elliot !!!! i have been telling people for YEARS about the association of femininity w/ nature and how it plays into colonialist ideals of domination but no one has ever taken that point seriously. to hear u say it in this video made me jump out my seat. this one was well worth the wait and effort, thank u so much for ur work 🤍

[@greyfox4838]

there is a lot of academia on this, not a new concept, colonialism has always been depicted as androcentric and domination based

[@asongfromunderthefloorboards]

That's a foundation of eco-feminism.

[@webweaver222]

@@greyfox4838 thanks for letting me know, figured it wasn't new cuz what really is now adays lol. just happy i now have a name to the theory, appreciate it 🙏🏼🤍

[@webweaver222]

@@asongfromunderthefloorboards something i will be reading more of ! adding it to the list

[@marcietownsend3635]

If you speak to people in colonized countries, they're clear about patriarchy, imperialism and colonialism all being the same root.

[@TrustTheDice]

As a women in korea having to suffer the korean men on a daily basis i jumped at this video. Thanks for brining this to light!

[@voidwalker7774]

What is so bad about them? For context. I am man from germany and i am just curious.

[@st.altair4936]

@@voidwalker7774 They're very misogynist and right-wing lol. It's the result of decades of capitalism and corporate consolidation.

[@wednes3day]

​@@voidwalker7774die Gacha Drama and Korean Gender Wars Videos von Moon Channel geben einen guten Einblick meiner Meinung nach

[@natasha5553]

@@voidwalker7774 men are consistently killing their wives and gfs its in the news...sexual trafficking is so high women are never taken srsly and men are giving rape and death threats to the korean feminist speaking on it...I can suggest you an acc from a korean feminist activist who daily tells her experinces with evidence and proof if you want to see how extremely bad it is

[@onlyslightlyemo2345]

@@voidwalker7774 well, google is available

[@Iquey]

Finally a woman at the beginning who knows what she is talking about instead of that influencer on TikTok who tried speaking for all Korean women making 4B seem like just a very fringe joke with no relevance. If the international internet finds out about it (especially Western media), it has some relevance, even if we don't have all the prior context, we are capable of looking into the history of the movement.

[@CharlieApples]

If you think Western feminists think of 4B as a joke, you haven’t delved very deep into western feminists circles.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

{ If you know, you know.

[@Schwupsdupsbeepboop]

Oh the media already knows about it, it just ain't carin'

[@rmmx77]

@@Iquey it is a fringe joke. I live in Korea and most people don’t even know what it is here. 4B is just western nonsense being shoved down here by foreigners.

[@Juelz_GnW]

I live in Korea and it literally is a fringe joke. foreigners act like they know anything about Asia 💀

[@Cryinginthecloudssss]

My fathers always told me the most dangerous thing you can run into in the woods is another person

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

Your father also should have told you “shut off that damn computer and go outside and play” 💀

[@LivVirtual]

@@RaidenMustDie3594 my mother tells me not to do that, because she's afraid i'll run into another person 💀

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

@@LivVirtual that explains why you’re chronically in misandrist echo chambers, cuz yo mom never told you to get your ass off of twitter

[@micki0finn430]

Don't go to Alaska please.

[@chester9585]

​@@RaidenMustDie3594can't you have some public decency and not spout insults like these without any evidence, aren't you ashamed to be a human being and acting like a middle school child? how do you think your mother would act when they see your scouring the net just to start a petty fight with strangers instead if enjoying yourself, grt off the computer and touch some grass, if you are already then touch more grass. You aren't even trying to have a friendly debate, you're just being an asshole, this isn't healthy.

[@april9242]

This video made me feel so many things, especially at the end. Moving to Canada from Korea when I was 12, I always felt there was unfairness in the world. Moving to a “better” country from “worse” country made me constantly question the state of the global society, where the label like “first world” and “third world country” are normalized. I felt disgusted by this normalization of hierarchy of land and nation, and I would get extremely angry at the idea that S. Korea (and many other nations that are deem as “dirty”) are below the European and North American nations. I also wonder about my life if my family hadn’t moved. I see the news and people’s talk about Korean society online and in person, and I feel this guilt for “escaping” the harsh realities in S. Korea, especially as someone who’s seen as a woman via larger society. “Why do I get to be here in Canada when they are suffering in their own land? How am I allowed to be Korean when I’m here, living free from Korean society’s constraints?” These thought got worse with the rise of anti-feminism in Korea. Kim sooJa’s art at the end legit teared me up. It’s like I’m stuck between two society, not of difference in culture, but in difference of “progress” and “power”. I’m living and existing inbetween the world where one society is deemed as “better” than other, and it’s a constant push and pull, in a world that pretends that it’s just “a cultural difference” or that im going through ”identity crisis”. They say It’s me who is confused in two “cultures”, but I was never confused about myself; i was confused about the norm. Her arts are fascinating to me because they seem to express and describe complexity through simplicity. I wanna write SO MUCH MORE but I’m running out of time rn. Thx for the video, and thx for the ending and again thx for seeing korea without orientalist gaze. I think ur one of the few creator that does so haha.

[@Biiku_]

Sorry, I had a whole heart felt and meaningful response and I have no idea if it went through. But the tldr was this: please find a way to write more. I'd like to read it when you do.

[@lordtette]

I'm not Korean but as someone who moved from Zimbabwe to Enlgand at 5 - the same country that colonised us. I've had the same guilt? I don't know if that's the word but It feels like survivors guilt to me. But the hiearchy you mentioned pisses me off too. I have to screenshot this post.

[@lalakuma9]

I feel like I have a similar but somewhat opposite experience. I grew up in Indonesia until I was 10, and only moved to a "developed" country after 18. Growing up, I was very aware of the huge disparity both in wealth and progressive cultural/humanitarian views between (mostly) Western and developing countries. Honestly I really envy and am quite outraged by the privilege people with Western citizenships/legal residencies have, and how much sheer luck of what family you were born into has a role in that. (Which also has a ton to do with colonialism, but I'd be writing a whole essay if I start with that + immigration). I do have a bit of a survivor's guilt when I hear about something really backwards happening back home, but at the same time so exhausted with trying to fight against the mentality of millions of people.

[@Makes_me_wonder]

​@@lordtetteHope you are still able to return to Zimbabwe because the UK is going down the shitter.

[@teyak13]

​​@@lordtette You and the OP finally put into words what I have struggled to describe for the past ten years. I moved to the US from Jordan when I was 12, and I feel an odd sense of survivor's guilt even though most of the people I left behind are doing just fine? And the concept of "first-" and "third-world" also grossed me out but more with how it affected others' perception of me; people used to ask if I knew what a car or a TV was when I first came here. The depictions of poorer countries in media just makes us seem so backwards when that is not the case, and there are vibrant, futuristic cities and passionate activists almost everywhere.

[@the.masked.one.studio4899]

I think that as a concept it can be quite liberating. Most women feel so much pressure to bear children and subject themselves to emotionally and physically unsafe experiences. I don’t identify as a woman but was raised as one, Even after having a child I felt almost doomed to being trapped with a man for years. The simple concept of 4B made me realize that I don’t have to engage with any of that if I choose not to. Something else could have been the catalyst but after experiencing romantic/sexual/relationship abuse I was terrified to think that I’d eventually be subjected to it against my will again.

[@FrankieWilliams-kx9gp]

You must admit it’s not sustainable on a large scale though. I suppose it doesn’t matter, regardless of what any of us do things will continue marching on. If you sit down and choose not to continue typically no one will try to make you get back up. That’s my experience, but with a woman maybe people feel more inclined to attempt to force you to keep going. It should be your choice to stop playing the game, I agree. If you want to join us guys who have given up, I welcome you.

[@the.masked.one.studio4899]

@@FrankieWilliams-kx9gp I think for some the lack of sustainability is a motivator. Some people think of it as a boycott for improved support/safety measures. The metropolitan police in London are declaring gender violence as a major terrorist threat. We need that in the US. We also need major infrastructure to provide mothers support when/if they choose to have children. Last I read over 60% of single mothers are in poverty and as currently stands the financial requirements for government assistance (which haven’t been adjusted in decades) are so low that you need to be close or experiencing homelessness to access them locking people into a violent cycle of poverty. Thank you for the warm invitation. I’m happy to engage with anyone who will respectfully do the same. I don’t support gender separatists but I do understand why women feel the need to create safe spaces. Gender seems somewhat ambiguous to me at this time although I think I’m typically clocked as a gay woman, or effeminate man. Certainly preferring the latter but whatever. Romantic relationships are the furthest thing I’m interested in pursuing. I’m applying for my doctorate in urban education and I’ll be intensely occupied for the next 6 or more years. In addition to raising my disabled first grader. Hopefully I’ll be able to step into a role that tenaciously supports families and children experiencing the things we have endured. :) 💖

[@typical_orange_cat]

I feel bad for your child :(

[@rmmx77]

@@the.masked.one.studio4899 single mothers are the ones who put themselves into poverty when they initiated divorces for whatever reasons. Single mothers who live in poverty deserve it for destroying their families and secondly who cares what woman want. Now a days feminists find whatever reason to complain. It’s a victim complex and it’s getting old

[@dapperwolf6034]

I don't identify somebody with a rational mind but I will say that your comment comes off as somebody who still hasn't left the playpen. No one is telling women to Bear children the message is actually opposite in Media. And your proof that the propaganda works telling young women to not forgo their natural function but just identify as an androgynous caricature and live your life an abject misery hoping one day you'll make everyone who ever tangentially even thought you were likeable wrong

[@DiamondKing-em7oc]

4B movement is S. Korea isn't a surprise, realizing that in this country women are paid 30% less than men,ds and misogyny is something normal

[@Neo-jty]

wrong, it's just that koean women don't do hard labor job, they work less hour than men, and they don't really do any dangerous job, so they should get paid less, if someone works less hour than you, take less risk than you, do less labor intense job, that person should gets paid less than you

[@anju5124]

What's ds?

[@Bobogdan258]

@@Neo-jty Google Controlling for a variable. This is a standard practice in the statistics you seem to be underestimating, since you believe to be smarter than them to not control for all the variables you're pointing at.

[@Neo-jty]

@@Bobogdan258 what is that has to do with google? you don't need to google to know that women are lazy in general, you don't need to google to know women work less hour than men worldwide, you don't need to google to know most women don't do hard labor jobs, you don't need to google to know most people who die in work are men, facts are facts, women deverse the payment they get

[@DiamondKing-em7oc]

@@anju5124 a mistake, a wrote it fast

[@monimuppet6132]

You will probably forever be my fav essayist because every time I think I know where you're going with a subject, you do so much more. I often leave your vids feeling embarrassed and a little ashamed that I hadn't considered the aspects you described, but I think that's a good thing 😊

[@morningboy_]

i hate that people are saying that the 4b movement is because women don't wanna have kids there. It's literally so much more than that.

[@nicoroberts7388]

Korea has been run by Samsung family for like 2000 years. What’s actually changed is attitudes towards men, not corporate consolidation.

[@SubvertTheState]

Feminism is completely pointless. It's the only movement which has no real goals other than social suicide. Women have a special ability to backwards rationalize their life choices and say it was the right choice. Women are a special class of citizen in Korea in the West. I would like to know how that's not the case when 24% of companies have an EXPLICIT, yes EXPLICIT "No White Men" hiring policy, and Affirmative Action is still pushed even though 78% of college graduates are women. Feminism should be shamed and publicly ridiculed, because it has never stood for anything it has ever claimed. Women will never count their privileges, because the movement demands endless complaints of persecution. The fight is against poor and working class men, never against corrupt power. Feminism has nothing to say about foreign policy or the draft because it's purely about selfishness. Your personal desires not about what's just. Feminism successfully gave what little power was left, directly to monopoly corporations. For men, work was a means to provide for their family, now the corporation is the symbol of a woman's success. The way women define themselves as their service to corporate interest is pathetic and off putting.

[@dapperwolf6034]

Yes it's a bunch of immature women children for going their natural biological process to create babies because they feel like their feelings are hurt. It is so much more than a movement about narcissistic and entitled women wanting to be men and getting nothing in return.

[@jimbothegymbro7086]

4b is using children as leverage to get men to do what they want, plot twist is men are just going "yeah? fine I'll just leave"

[@thierrytecumseh734]

It’s from misandry and a serious and delusional victim mentality.

[@pineappllesta]

3:00 "why do women find men to be so scary" in my personal experience, im an avid hiker and just - nature nerd in general. The amount of times ive been followed by men and also assaulted or nearly so by these men vs. The amount of times ive been around "big dangerous animals" like bob cats, panthers, and bears - and guess what? The "big scary animals" just minded their business. It was beautiful, i got to peacefully observe them and have a wonderful experience. Whereas these men wouldnt stop following me, wouldnt stop trying to touch me etc. they see our bodies as something to conquer and take or something. It sucks

[@SemekiIzuio]

I just keep thinking what infected their brains their souls to behave this way. Why do men think they have power over women, no our anatomy isnt equal but we both deserve respect and equal social structures. Neither gender is better then the other.

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

Get a gun then Jesus Christ. You guys would rather complain and complain rather than fucking do something about the problem. A man tries to grab you pepper spray him, if he gets angry and calls his friends to attack you distance yourself and pull out your gun the police will understand. But American women are so thirsty for victim hood status that they’d rather stay harmless and weak than fight

[@rickfastly2671]

Society is cooked

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

@@pineappllesta you know there was a court case a little while ago where a woman stabbed a guy 60 times in the chest under the influence of drugs and she got let go with no charges because the judge said “she had no control over her actions during this drug induced psychotic break”

[@pineappllesta]

@@RaidenMustDie3594 ????

[@dungeonmaster217]

I'm a guy. Guys who are being hysterical and calling feminism misandry don't understand how much toxic masculinity and current image of a "REAL MAN" hurts men a lot. Current role of man is of someone at power, but at the cost of their humanity being mangled - fuck that shit. My father despite being a very kind person at his core, was taught from the childhood all these bullshit standarts about not showing feelings, not seeking help if needed, that his only role is to bring money to the family, and this role also justifies all the abuse. And if you chose not to follow these standarts, you are being shamed for not being masculine enough. How the hell guys don't understand, that feminists don't hate men - they hate this toxic image. Maybe being cockblocked at mass will open their eyes.

[@questioningespecialy9107]

"How the hell guys don't understand, that feminists don't hate men - they hate this toxic image." i like to give the benefit of the doubt and say that most of them either 1) had impactful negative experiences with feminists (of whatever kind) or 2) just believed what they were (constantly) told 🤷🏿‍♂

[@kertchu]

You talk about not following standards like it’s easy. It’s easy for me but only because I’m autistic. I think you ultimately lack empathy for them because otherwise you would know that not following standards is hard not just because of internal pressure but external pressure too.

[@treacherousjslither6920]

Us men being brainwashed into accepting our disposability and becoming stoic tough guys who work hard to protect and provide has been relatively successful for human civilization imo. It seems like everyone knows this because they see it every day but no one wants to acknowledge it.

[@adelb7897]

​​@@treacherousjslither6920 yeah but it only works if men are given absolute power and respect over women because it's a huge sacrifice of men's humanity. Not saying this is wrong or right but now it doesnt make sense at all to see yourself as a man to be disposable in any way. That thought alone disgusts me to my core. I think we either go along with working on getting rid of old social norms so that all men and women can decide how they want to live their lives without following a script, make an entirely new script that is fair for both sides or go back to our old gender roles.

[@questioningespecialy9107]

@@treacherousjslither6920 successful in what way? and how does it compare to brainwashing people into accepting their oppression (e.g.: anti-union, pro-slavery, child labor, etc.)?

[@nullbyt]

Where do I opt out of society

[@manwhoismissingtwotoenails4811]

Mongolia

[@wickedarctiinae4132]

You "are" society. You carry society with you. Even if you were to start all over again in a desert island/continent, you replicate what you have.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

@@broidkanymore-zc4lt "Screw you! -- I'm gonna go play Minecraft!"

[@mattdombrowski8435]

You can't opt out per se, but you can minimize. Think about where in your life you interact with people and see what you can do to reduce that. You can change your job to one that doesn't deal with the public or coworkers much (if you can, I'd recommend one that involves a hazardous environment. Nothing keeps people away like "Danger. Radioactive."). You can step back from social media and internet forums etc. You can avoid the news and, more broadly, non-fiction and focus on other worlds. You can distance yourself from your friends and your family. There are also more... let's say violent... ways to do this, but I wouldn't recommend them. My advice would be to take some time to really examine your life. Figure out where exactly the pain is coming from and taking the steps necessary to mitigate that. It is possible to live a meaningful life primarily through your work if you find purpose in that. Perhaps only having a few close friends or maybe just Ma and Pa. A common disease in the modern world is the tendency to think in terms of all or nothing. Very rarely is the solution to a problem to do all or nothing. Usually the way forward is to either pull back to something reasonable or bump something up a bit. Thank you for reading my mini-essay. I hope I was able to provide some perspective.

[@scottbuck1572]

@@wickedarctiinae4132 Nope; Im going into the woods, abandon all language and knowledge, and live like the mighty elk/deer/other larger mammal of the wood. Then I will be free

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

Class warfare and economic disparity is like a tree where the leaves and the roots actively try to kill each other instead of providing for each other.

[@raspberrytaegi]

!!!

[@PropheticShadeZ]

Class warfare is required when people on the bottom are unable to peacefully enact change for the better economically Rich people cutting off democratic control of industry through lobbying and corruption made this problem Solutions need to take this pattern into account, i feel like this is inevitable with the market pressures of stakeholder returns

[@trvpyn]

​@@PropheticShadeZ 👏🏾

[@TGP109]

There WILL ALWAYS BE economic disparity and ''class warfare'' isn't inevitable-it's a mindset and ideology as well.

[@AetherTiger8]

"Political lesbians" were a thing during 2nd wave feminism, but "born this way" ideology conflicted too much-- the idea that you *could* choose to be gay conflicted with the framework of how marriage was being fought for as a birthright-- so "feminism turning people into lesbians" isn't a new thing and it's nothing to be afraid of either.

[@lordtette]

I always took political lesbians as lesbians period but feminism made them feel comfortable coming out

[@AlexAzureOtaku]

Weren't political lesbians just....roommates for socio-economic purposes to detangle from men?

[@oiytd5wugho]

@@lordtette Well, some of them certainly were gay or bi. But you can't discount the people calling themselves lesbians while actually being entirely celibate and not interested in any romantic relationships with women, that was a real thing. You can swear off sex and relationships without appropriating the spaces and experiences of lesbians. If you read some of the political lesbian writings, they're... clearly not gay in any capacity. Political lesbianism was ultimately about saying _no_ to men, not saying _yes_ to women, and we've already got a word for that

[@aGoodNAZIisaDeadNAZI]

​@@oiytd5wugho on point! ❤

[@ogrecooch]

@@oiytd5wughoso they were just celibate women??

[@AlexAzureOtaku]

I'll tell you this as a women from a different asian country. Experiences of men, women, cis, trans all vary along with cultural context. It doesn't mean multiplicity can't exist under thr same umbrella. I think a lot of us, in an effort to distance ourselves from one aspect of a narrative also isolate ourselves from the movements that benefit us. Complexity should not be sacrificed for the sake of connectivity but one does need to attempt to bring both of those things to the movements we champion or things fall apart quickly just as the metoo movement did during the pandemic Edited for abhorrent spellings.

[@zotfotpiq]

grew up playing sports. remember how guys used to talk about their girlfriends in the locker room. this movement surprises me, not at all.

[@ladybug3380]

What would they say?

[@carrotbo9]

@@ladybug3380 im curious too

[@zotfotpiq]

@@ladybug3380 in defense of the average guy, most were nice. if they were lucky enough to have a girlfriend, they treated and spoke of them with respect. but, i guess among the guys jockeying for position among the popular crowd, it was almost a competition to see who could get away with being the most abusive. they would joke around openly about disgusting behavior they'd perpetrated in the past and suggest what they planned to do in the future. it was deliberately hard to tell what was true and what was bravado. but girls talked and sometimes there were bruises or someone would miss class so. 🤮 the worst part was that the coaches were there... they just didn't give a 💩.

[@ladybug3380]

@@zotfotpiq it all stems from wanting to be accepted by their peers. You’re more “Alpha” if you hurt women with no remorse. We always wonder who started this “gender war” but no one wants to be held accountable for their actions.

[@zotfotpiq]

@@ladybug3380 i want to judge them because I was a sick kid. but the people who raised us were sick. traumatized by wars. my parents had 5 jobs between them because they were afraid of poverty. so much racism, bigotry, and misogyny just built into normal suburban upbringing. it's not an excuse. part of an explanation. I'm glad i got (am getting) to raise my own son in an era and environment that's more progressive.

[@SemekiIzuio]

I hate that women and men are fighting among each other when the real blame should pointed at the people in power who refuse to do good and continue to manipulate and greed everything they touch

[@suzygirl1843]

What did you expect? USA and the West in general is a war mongerer. It was bound to end this way.

[@dulcecaramel]

I mean the blame can be pointed on the, and rightfully so, sure. But they by no means hold all of the blame, misogyny existed before capitalism and its not Jeff Bezos fauIt that me and everywoman I know has experienced DV and SA at the hands ofmen

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

I know it’s almost as if the immature incels, and femcels are using these “causes” to just hate people online

[@Commielover69]

1 good comment

[@aGoodNAZIisaDeadNAZI]

The "people in power" are mostly "men", always has been that way. If there are any women, they are most likely patriarchal too.

[@munchiekins]

just what i needed, got a long drive ahead of me. thanks elliot!! ❤

[@munchiekins]

really enjoyed this video, thank you for all the hard work and research you put into it. also, the josh johnson clip was a pleasant surprise 😆

[@Emiliapocalypse]

Oh shoot, I have a 6 hour drive coming up, thanks for reminding me to save this and listen to it tomorrow instead ✌️

[@munchiekins]

@Emiliapocalypse oh man! good luck 6 hours is crazy long 😳

[@vikki8699]

I really support the South Korean women with the 4B movement. They really have it hard! Their men are so loved and cherished that even when a man has no job, it is still expected for the women to provide, do 100% the household and child care whilst also looking after all elderly in the family! In South Korea, I heard that everyone wants a son and daughter in-law. But no ones wants a daughter. Its so heart breaking and I understand why South Korean woman have just walked completely away. They are not being listened to, heard or understood so they all have said, if you're going to be a brick wall when it comes to our issues, we will treat you as such. They have walked away from a table where their men refuse to hear and understand them. This has now echoed to the west because after hearing the Korean womens reasons, we resonated with their plight and stand with them. Why? Here in the west, women are expected to work similar hours to similar work as men yet when women come home and all the housework and child rearing is still a woman's responsibility. If a woman speaks out about it, she is minimized, devalued, dismissed and all her labour is seen as irrelevant compared to a mans. Whilst this happens, women in the west get the marriage penality and even more penality when they have a child(ren) in the workplace and in society. Some women are refused a mortgage on their own in child-bearing age because of this! This is why the western women are taking on 4B. If we are not being listened to, why are we bothering being at a table who is hell bent on misunderstanding us? So, we logically walked away. These are not the other factors in play. Its the terrible economy, threat of world war III, nuclear war threats and seeing how difficult it is for us to even have our own homes whilst in good jobs. I say, if it is difficult for me in an excellent job with good pay. How is it going to be for my unborn children in 20 years time? I'd rather protect my unborn children from that suffering bcause we all know how society shames women for having children (even if married to a man) when they cannot afford to house and feeds themselves, let alone a child. We're classed irresponsible. Now women are not having kids to be responsible, we're to blame for the falling birth rates. Society can piss off with its double-bind. Let it die. All societies collapse eventually and its always because a few people refuse to be fair. They can no longer have it both ways. The ball is now in the court of those who hold power. Change or die out. May South Korean women win their rights to equality! ❤

[@IamHandsome4u]

U are generalizing a lot. Just bcs korean men there dont make videos abt them, the korean women think they can say whatever they want. Its same like western men complaining abt western women, whom u women think them as incel, similarly these korean women are incel here.

[@rmmx77]

@@vikki8699 lmao I live in Korea and most men and women are living their life like normal. Politicians don’t notice anything and there is nowhere near the call for change westerners make it out to be. 4B is a small movement that mainly has over 30 year old women which are women that aren’t even desirable to most men regardless.

[@HazyFace_]

@@rmmx77 cute copium you have there

[@rmmx77]

@@HazyFace_ If anything it’s 4B that’s the cope. That’s the funny part about this 🤣🤣

[@ViPER5RT10]

wtf are you talking about, society is completely rigged in favor of women

[@botanicalitus4194]

Not me finishing the video in 30 minutes because I watched it on 2x speed. On a serious note, this is a good video. As a middle eastern woman who now lives in the US, I really sympathize with the 4B portion of the broader Korean feminist movement. I think even if most women do not participate in it, having it be somewhat prevalent is enough to recontexualize the role of women in the eyes of most people. It will help push the notion that women are under no obligation at all to settle for less than what they want out of life or family. That for a society to convince women to have kids and create families, it has to relent to their demands for complete equality and equal respect. And also just like with any movement that finds a footing online, people who are part of this movement or who support it need to make sure to push back against any reactionary harmful prejudices that try to take root in it. LGBT+ support and rights are important, and proponents of LGBT+ rights and women's rights have been in many cases the same people or great allies to one another. This allyship is what we need more of.

[@MuhammadAlkomy]

Hold on from where in middle east? All you talked about is hated in middle east

[@niamhleeson3522]

@@MuhammadAlkomy Not all people from/in west asia think the same, you know

[@MuhammadAlkomy]

@@niamhleeson3522 I am from that 'West Asia 'and you can count on your hands the number of people that tend to belive in that stuff

[@greyfox4838]

I don't think a movement like 4B can exist without transphobia. For such a movement to work, you need to believe in gender essentialism. Not a single aspect of 4B is interested in systematic change, it's only interested in gender/culture war with men as individuals and men as a collective "species." Not a serious movement. I think the portion of Korean feminism that is NOT 4B is doing much better, and I think it's possible to make those spaces less transphobic without diluting the message. I think it's time westerners stop giving 4B the attention it does not deserve. There are far more respectable and practical movements going on and I think it really shows just how terrible western media is because they don't cover those movements, rather they would cover what gets sensationalist clicks: "Koreans as an ethnicity are dying because of these feminists, click for more!" Online trend-based feminism is increasingly getting detached from actual activism-based feminism day by day, and I feel sad so many people are getting their education of feminism from tiktok, twitter and tumblr instead of taking a real gender studies course or reading Bell Hooks or whatever.

[@botanicalitus4194]

@@MuhammadAlkomythats just not true, the people like me who believe these things dont just go around blabbing about it to random people... I have family members who are Igbt and obviously I keep their secret but its not safe to talk about these things openly. Also, everytime someone talks about these things they are accused of being a fake arab or a westernized 🙄

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

If I were a woman, I'd pick the bear too. A hairy gay guy with a hefty physique sounds totally friendly.

[@ariej9028]

I’m a woman. I was in the woods with a bear once, it was just chillin I walked away. It didn’t rlly care I was there because it knew I wasn’t going to harm it. I have however been raped by 4 different men starting at 3 ending at 19. Ofc I’d pick the bear

[@foodslayer1588]

@@ariej9028 I'm sorry you went through that. That's absolutely insane. I hope you're in a good place now

[@qj2500]

So tone deaf stfu

[@IamHandsome4u]

​@@ariej9028 nice story but no one will believe u except feminists.

[@ZeroNumerous]

@@ariej9028 That's terrible, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. For me, having been beaten regularly by my mother: Women are horrific monsters too, so I'd pick the bear as well. After all, a bear might not be hungry. But all women are horrible monsters who will hurt me.

[@JordanCooneyMartin]

Vids like this are why I subscribed. So what if you’re the ‘nuance guy’ , I’m here for it! I loved the call to action at the end too, very inspiring. I’m gonna be thinking about that one…

[@gnocchi5326]

interview with Hawon was so insightful. thank you for your video, much to think about🙆‍♀️

[@palomathereptilian]

I've been interested about going deeper with the 4B movement, I already found out there's a small but growing movement inspired on 4B Korean movement here in Brazil... And tbh I think 4B is applicable here, I really hope Brazilian 4B will become a prominent movement here in the next few years

[@palomathereptilian]

As I write this comment, we are dealing with threats from far-right Christian fundamentalist politicians trying to end with the few reproductive rights we have... They literally want to punish LITERAL CHILDREN interrupting pregnancies after getting abused, and getting harsher punishments for it than their adult abusers for abusing them... Yes, you read that right It's so godawfully frustrating, thankfully this enraged most of the population and it seems they are about to give up on continuing with that bill to make abortion a crime in all instances

[@gregvs.theworld451]

Speaking from America here, I straight up think there'd be merit to women (if they felt inclined, their choice obvs) adopting similar ideas here.

[@FrankieWilliams-kx9gp]

Is this the woman equivalent of mgtow, and on a more extreme end the incel movement/phenomenon?

[@gregvs.theworld451]

@@FrankieWilliams-kx9gp Boiled down to it's basic premise maybe? Still, I'd argue the motivation is different, as is the way it's being handled. In my experience a lot of the MGTOW dudes, for the fact they were claiming they were divesting from women, couldn't let women go and would talk ENDLESSLY about how free they were from women, as if they were still not divesting and the perceived sleights against them from women still lived rent free in their heads, and since I know most dudes aren't catcalled, harassed, attacked, or SAed by women, I'm inclined to believe MGTOW and incel ideology stems primarily from misogyny, whereas women at least have more valid consideration for why they'd choose to keep away from men, and I think for most of them that's liberating rather than them staying up at night thinking about men and hoping they're hurt by their absence, and going onto forums to talk about how great being men free is, I think they just... live their lives.

[@olympiaelda1121]

Its nothing like mgtow. We have reasons. Mgtow is just hurt ego.

[@JDSeaside]

The revenant was 9 years ago?!

[@andreaslind6338]

Yes time flies, but 2 of those were under lockdown

[@SamTheMan666]

Pikachu face.

[@atuvera9021]

Ikr, it felt like yesterday. Dude, we are getting old af

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

* Rapidly aging meme *

[@mikefletcher7181]

I learned today there was a Despicable Me PS2 game :(

[@thriftymeg]

Huh I’m doing 4b and didn’t even know it. I’m celibate over a decade and I’m a single woman near 40.

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

Ooooh…pushin 40 and no husband huh? My condolences dude, you act all strong and independent now but you’ll be singing a whole different song and dance when you’re like 80

[@thriftymeg]

@@RaidenMustDie3594 I’ll be dead long before 80. My family only lasts to 72.

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

@@thriftymeg oooooh you’re gonna be gettin tinder hookups until you’re 70? Dude that’s abysmally sad, nothing sadder than an old single cougar on a dating app

[@basu_20999]

That's cool actually

[@MakNaasfalti-jh4bg]

We welcome you in incel circle

[@amfq]

1 view in 1 minute… can’t believe you’ve fallen off on such a highly anticipated video 🧘🏽‍♀️

[@tatiblack6087]

I know right? So sad, so sad 😢😂

[@snekysnek-qe5pm]

I just realized 4b movement is going to be easy for me as a lesbian. But I worry about the straight girls doing this. It's hard for them.

[@annmarieknapp]

Doesn't bother me in least. Happily 4B.

[@Neo-jty]

good luck then, lesbian divorce rate and DV rate are highest, and gay couples have lowest divorce rate and DV rate, that tells you a lot about differences between men and women

[@becnimi]

Lesbian win

[@Neo-jty]

@@becnimi lesbians have highest divorce rate and DV rate btw

[@grantmiller7257]

4B requires abstinence... that includes lesbianism. Also there is a lot of homophobia in the movement as presented.

[@lordtette]

43:14 The woman vs the bear thing reminds me of the horror movie were a group of women are being hunted in the woods by a group of men hunting who tried to assault them. And as the guy said they're doing this cause there aren't any witnesses. They were away from the docks where people were fishing and it a little island

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

It also reminds me of this murder case where a woman stabbed a man 60 times in the chest under the influence of marijuana, but the judge let her off Scott free because she “was not in her rational mind” or something

[@LivVirtual]

there was an actual serial killer who did something like that. he kidnapped, violated, and murdered AT LEAST seventeen women, many of whom he would release into the alaskan wilderness so he could chase them down like game animals before ending their lives. he evaded arrest for a good while because the police didn't believe the testimony of the one girl who'd managed to escape him.

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

@@LivVirtual is that supposed to convince that men are worse and more evil than women or something? My point was that women are human and can be evil too but yall want to sweep that shit under the rug

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

@@LivVirtual OH OH WAIT AND you women fall in love for guys who murder and do awful things to women, when yall see a mugshot of a dude who killed his two girlfriends yall go head over heels for him, yall write him love letters talking bout “I can fix him” yall won’t stop talking about “I choose the bear 💅✨” but yall get wetter than water world when you see a serial killer

[@LivVirtual]

@@RaidenMustDie3594💀💀 okayyyyy then what about the men who want lady dimitrescu to step on them yk, i originaly DIDN'T choose the bear in that scenario. but after witnessing the hostility with which so many men reacted to women who DID choose the bear over them, i changed my mind. because i don't really expect a bear to have morals or principles or self-control or anything like that, so if a bear does attack me, i'll at least die knowing that there wasn't any basic human decency for me to appeal to. it saves myself the additional pain of disappointment, eh? i'm not entirely sure why you would bring up the women who become infatuated with serial killers? bc afaik, there weren't any who were thirsting after the guy that i described in my previous comment. but to provide continuity for YOUR previous comment: there have also been cases where men who committed murder were allowed to walk away free due to not being in their right mind. it's called the "insanity defense." i recall one such instance of the insanity plea being successfully used by a man about two years ago. he was an american from the state of florida iirc, and in 2016, he murdered an older couple for no apparent reason. he was fpimd chewing on the face of one of the bodies. anyways, two years ago, this man pleaded insanity. his plea was accepted by a judge, and he has now been committed to a mental health facility. would you like another example of the insanity defense being used?

[@thunderrunner666]

Speaking as a man, given the fucked up historical context, old fashioned societal expectations, and disgustingly invasive and exploitative practices like secretly filming girls/women without their consent, I can understand why a movement like this would gain traction. This is a matter of human rights and living with respect and dignity, not demonizing men.

[@hoked2194]

It's *always* about demonizing men. If it weren't, they wouldn't be taking it out on the average dude.

[@thunderrunner666]

I think we are looking at this from different perspectives. My comment is about acknowledging the movement as a response to historical/cultural grievances, and domestic abuse. I don't see how men are demonized in this context.

[@user-ye1iu7qy6s]

its funny because western women want rights then typically devastate that by voting to import a army of men into there country that dont even have woman rights in ther vocabulary

[@VelvetRed-rz8ur]

We appreciate your intelligence and your sympathy for our cause. ❤

[@existentialbreadroll]

Loved the nuance and loved the cutting through it. Loved it all. I'm walking away from this feeling more responsible for my gaze through the frames of all my identities and also feeling more connected to my humanity than any other identity. Thank you for moving me with your art and the way you frame other people's art. So much respect and love.

[@evildoesnotsleep-x2b]

of course they wouldn't want to bring up a child in these conditions. support for korean women!

[@dl2839]

Population control

[@cfromnowhere]

50:18 I know what you are trying to say here. The problem with that symbol is that it builds on the social expectation of masculinity in which a man's genitalia defines his dating potential and "manliness" in general. As feminists, they should be aware that such a definition of masculinity is strongly associated with the reason they find men intolerable as partners - at the basic level, the two are the same thing. In other words, they reinforce toxic masculinity rather than challenging it. You may think, well, are they trying to piss off men because this is the signal men can understand? This does not make sense either, because almost everything on this board is women preaching to the choir; it was not expected to be seen by others at all. Also, a major reason young men become incels is that they are frustrated about meeting traditional milestones of being a man, thus the "every man deserves a woman" thing. So this signal is not intended to be seen by men at all. It surely wouldn't go anywhere; as Audre Lorde said, the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. On the inseparability of gender and class, South Korea has a unique (or it is actually not that unique, just more obvious) element: the dangerous dominance of Chaebol, which is the major cause of socioeconomic inequality in South Korea, is a part of South Korea's wartime measure. The Korean War never officially ended and that is why Chaebol is allowed to control almost everything in the country despite serious harm. It finally boils down to history and international politics.

[@vrubin]

at first I thought the women who don’t wanna date men would just date other women instead.. til I heard the homophobic part of the story 😔

[@annmarieknapp]

It's comical that men just automatically think about schmeggs and who will women "be with.". Sure some women will, but for the most part, women are just done with romance and intimate relationships in general. It's about freedom,not sehx.

[@vanillavania.]

But why would the assumption be that they “date other women instead”? Why can’t they just be free of all forms of romantic relationships if they so please?

[@unknownunknown5822]

Romance is practically a patriarchal construction. Lesbian relationships themselves last shorter than gay ones, women can handle "being single" while men shrivel to dust if they're not a parasite to someone.

[@tiahnarodriguez3809]

@@vanillavania. Cuz they focus on sex too much. It’s mostly straight women, but also male attracted bi women who are choosing not to date men. I not sure why think straight women can magically turn bi or gay just cuz they don’t want to date men when it doesn’t work like that. At the end of the day they are still straight, and aren’t going to be attracted to women.

[@runningoutoftime7065]

@@vanillavania.because women naturally tend to default to other women when they have failed to keep the men they want

[@alaxb]

Holy shit. This is my favorite work of yours, to date. Not only helped me to shift my perspective of 4B, but also my approach to perceiving, in general. Thank you so much.

[@awa_de_uwu__-]

proof that bad men hurt everyone, including other men

[@expedition346]

the patriarchy isn’t “bad men” FYI

[@awa_de_uwu__-]

@@expedition346 thanks

[@SigFigNewton]

Need to stop shaming men for being homemakers.

[@ithinkiknowme6450]

Other men need to stop shaming men for being homemakers and stop calling them simps..

[@SeaWitch115]

Yeah have they never seen the anime way of the house husband!!

[@ecnad]

대박. Brilliant work, Elliot - it's very cool that you got to chat with Hawon Jung about this.

[@rajpalbhatia1715]

I just feel sad for the women in south korea who have to go through so much 💔 and women all over world

[@suzygirl1843]

Women all over the world? This is just First World countries, Dude. You people screwed yourselves up. Africa is predicted to have a population BOOM as they have the youngest population in the world, no Feminism, no Manosphere nonsense. Just Godly people who are gonna take their rightful place once you've taken yourselves out. God is definitely smiling down on us. Bye

[@Lynny378]

​@@suzygirl1843as if women in Africa aren't victims of abuse and crimes aswell due to their gender . It may be less but it definitely exists.

[@ViPER5RT10]

why would you be sad for them when society is rigged in favor of women anyways.

[@gwyn2151]

Thanks for covering this Elliot. I have been very interested in the 4b movement for a while now, but it's hard to find information that isn't biased to the western point of view. As a feminist it's very important to me to see feminism in its many forms around the word and to understand the unique and universal struggles that women have. To me celibacy and anti-marriage movements have been an integral part of many feminist movements around the world, but they are difficult because they often can fall into the moral or cis-centered discorce that will ultimately derail the movement. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in S Korea.

[@GearZNet]

tl;dr The future belongs to those who show up for it. It plays out like this: People who don't have children die and take their ideas with them. Ideas that promote or are heavily aligned with populations that don't reproduce at replacement levels dwindle into irrelevance and get referred to as a failed cult/fad &or their books get burned so as not to infect the remaining populace.

[@rmmx77]

@@gwyn2151 4B is a very small movement in Korea filled with leftover women who aren’t even desirable to men regardless. Mostly Korean men see it as sour grapes since these women aren’t able to attract men anymore. Most men here are picking up their passports and going to other countries to date women. Mainly the Philippines, Vietnam and multiple Latin American countries.

[@enhancedutility266]

It's a pretty small movement South Korea was already facing population decline and birth decline way before this movement even started most men in South Korea have checked out decades ago so for them not getting sex from you their own women isn't really a flex sense they've been celibate for decades and some have already left the country to get married elsewhere and start up families in countries like Vietnam

[@skullkid64mm]

@@rmmx77bullshit it’s bigger than that. And tell me you’re an incel without telling me you’re incel by using one china’s propaganda lingo by calling them leftover women when there’s more men than women in China meaning men are the leftovers

[@mariiinya]

Thank you for this video! As a westerner who's had an interest in korean society and language for years I wish everyone interested in the 4B movement would watch this. The way it has been made into another trend really strips it away from the context it was born in. You've put so much work into the research and I for one appreciate the nuance - as a sociologist I feel like that is all I do as well😂 But it is so important to highlight the shades of grey between black and white especially in the age of growing disrepancies in almost every aspect of society. Also appreciated the point on confucianism - must admit I've fallen victim to the simplification of Asian patriarchism before so it was good to be called out on that! Keep up the amazing work Elliot❤

[@suzygirl1843]

Ironic.

[@mariiinya]

@@suzygirl1843 What do you mean?

[@pipperoni8567]

hey, if you're going to make such a point about saying that this is a "trend vs. movement" then you should really provide definitions, social movement theory is very alive and well and there are plenty of definitions to draw from- or you can make your own if you want to

[@blucantrell2]

people are taking a look around and realizing that any child they have doesn't stand much of a chance under this new libertarian social order. Why play a game you can't win? And so, they just decide to enjoy the little life they have rather than creating a generation destined to be the mudsill for the inheritance classes.

[@TGP109]

''Libertarian social order''? You must mean ''individualistic'' because there isn't much Libertarianism going on.

[@uchegbudivine6885]

Finally someone that watched the whole video

[@expedition346]

@TGP109 “new libertarian” is probably a mistranslation of “neoliberal”

[@user-ye1iu7qy6s]

bingo. if i have a kid in the west i gotta be careful of the community schools educating them slop. the kids in the schools showing them gore videos. the goverment doing as they please with them. and they cant play outside because of the increasing unsafety rising up from worldwide migration problems.

[@izzizzi]

As a Korean born and raised woman, 4B is not a "movement". It is an overarching air among women, an implicit participation, and natural selection.

[@RaidenMustDie3594]

If you say so, I’ll have you know only very few women are taking part in this “movement” a grand majority of women are living life in harmony with men because they’re not chronically online

[@rmmx77]

@@izzizzi It’s just feminists eliminating themselves out of the gene pool and good riddance. That just leave the sane women who have no problem with men.

[@rmmx77]

@@izzizzi it’s just means man haters and feminists eliminating themselves from the gene pool and I’m here for it. Which means only sane women who love men and men will reproduce which means this issue will correct itself. 👍

[@ryanvenjoyer]

Darwinists are gonna love this, same with N. Korea with their higher birth rate.

[@vaporeonice3146]

Elliot, I really feel like this is one of your best videos. Thank you for your incredible work. Your interview with Hawon Jung was fabulous, and the end segment hit me hard as fuck. Let’s hold onto that last thread of cutting through (but not denying) the nuance to see the broader common human struggles moving forward…I think it’s really important for all of us. I love what you do ❤️

[@simonsnowlock5937]

closing statements hit so hard, Elliot! 👏 And i love Kimsooja's work you showed, so thank you for showing it to us!

[@AetheriusComics]

This movement is very strange to me because after all the research I've done, and people I've talked with in this movement, it appears that most people in it where never enthusiastically into men far before this movement. So, it seems to me that you have two groups of women: 1) Women who are enthusiastically into men. 2) Women who are not enthusiastically into men. The most strange aspect of this is, people are pushing the idea that all or most women are choosing life without men, when more than half of women don't agree with these women, and date/marry men with little problem.

[@rmmx77]

@@AetheriusComics I live in Korea and this movement isn’t as big as westerners make it out to be, and on the contrary most women are into men, meanwhile the women who aren’t are mostly western women who make up what 10% of the global female population. And even then probably half of that are into men and the other half aren’t which in reality could be 5% of the global female population. Sure there are women outside of the west who also fit that mold, but even then that’s what an additional 1% to 2% of global women. Feminism outside of the west isn’t as big as it is inside of it. I’ve been to many parts of the world.

[@enhancedutility266]

That's because most men in South Korea have already checked out of society since 1997 they're just beating a dead horse at this point You're more likely to be deleted by yourself than another human being in South Korea seeing his house South Korea is one of the safest countries in the world where there's virtually no gun violence

[@MachFiveFalcon]

North Korea's birthrate is currently at 1.81, higher than that of the US which is 1.66, and declining much more slowly than South Korea's which is currently at 0.81. Damn.

[@why7654]

Wait where did you get that info? Since most news coming from that country are hard to know if they are even real

[@MachFiveFalcon]

@@why7654 The data I found was from World Bank Group. I'm not sure exactly how they get their data on North Korea.

[@IamHandsome4u]

​​@@why7654 i mean, if the data was showing NK in a negative light, i'm pretty sure u would believe it without a 2nd thought, but u couldnt believe them in a positive light right?cuz NK= bad and western countries= good.🤦‍♂️

[@roa3432]

​@@why7654 For more information about North Korea, check out the documentaries "My Brother and Sisters in the North," "Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul" and the deleted DW documentary "Life in North Korea." The channel "Zoe Discovers" has a lot of information too.

[@enhancedutility266]

Yeah they're just going to move in for the kill in China and Russia will back them up It's sad to see as well that means that the coalition of the UN soldiers who sacrificed their lives to keep South Korea free from communism will now have their lives in vain

[@goliathtigerfishes]

I started participating in this months ago, and I feel so free from the stres of relationships. It's going great and my friends are so supportive!

[@Junosensei]

Thank you for this moderate exploration of the 2B movement. A lot of my prior knowledge has largely been online articles from news coverage Asia or Korea broadly, but like most news, they tend to treat the subject from an "objective" distanced lens rather than discussing in depth the more personal aspects of it. My major in college (10 years ago now... wow) was Asian Studies and long before I realized I was a trans woman, I spent a lot of time in gender and women's studies classes, so I've been broadly interested in feminism in Korea, Japan (especially Japan), and China. Sadly, I remain pretty ignorant of other Asian feminist movements, like in Vietnam or Taiwan, for instance. There is a whole lot more to the story than the broad strokes you painted, but I think you summed up what I know and even more in a pretty time-efficient manner. Enough for me to recommend to friends, at least. I think it's important to recognize that even Western feminism has had its historical and contemporary hiccups (to put it lightly) and its similarly essentialist phases as well. The suffragette movement had a huge problem with internal racism excluding black women especially, and prominent 2nd and 3rd wave feminists have also pushed extremely questionable anti-men sentiment, often splitting feminists into groups and excluding either queer women (thinking butch lesbians are a sort of "men-lite", obviously excluding trans women, and also trans men--who are still an essential part of the feminist movement, etc.).

[@afasys]

25:08 Although I agree Confucianism isn't the sole root cause of every East Asian value, I think it's important not to understate how much influence Confucianism had on China and Korea. Nearly all education was based on Confucianism because the civil service examinations of China and Korea were heavily based on the memorization of Chinese classics, in which Confucianism is a major theme. Since these civil service examinations were the only way someone could escape a lower class or maintain their current class, it was the most influential event of someone's life. Due to the importance of the examination, the importance of being educated in Confucianism was paramount. Additionally, these civil service exams were administered all the way up to the late 19th century, and therefore maintained a significant cultural presence in China and Korea. This is in stark contrast to Greek philosophy of the west; although it was consistently studied throughout history, someone's proficiency in memorizing it never determined their entire life and career.

[@altyrrell3088]

15:35 "raising his children" - aren't the children theirs together? Is that the general Korean attitude toward women's participation in and contribution to the family?

[@lordtette]

similar to men who say he has to "babysit" his children. Men have been taught the woman is the one is the one to rear the child

[@luf.7648]

In Confucian countries like Korea women are traditionally treated as the tool to give the man's family their descendants. It's a man's duty to his ancestors to have a male heir to further the line and a woman is there to give him that heir. Only a man can pass on his family name and ensure the continuation of ancestor worship. So a kid first and foremost belongs to the man's family. Most people won't consciously think like this but it's what underlies the culture.

[@luf.7648]

Also, traditionally women keep their last names in these cultures, so they don't even share a last name with their children. While not really belonging to their birth family anymore after marriage, they are also kind of outsiders in their husband's family which they married into, signified by the different last name.

[@altyrrell3088]

@@luf.7648 I had no idea. Thank you for all of this information.

[@luf.7648]

​​No problem! I am not an expert on contemporary Korean culture by any means, this is just what I know about the historical nuances of Confucian culture by virtue of my field of study being East Asian history (and also having married into an East Asian family). While these cultural aspects can explain the notion of 'raising his children,' at the same time I have no doubt that Korean women love their children as much as women anywhere else, I just want to make that clear in case someone misunderstands. 🙈

[@lilypryor9015]

4B reminds me a lot of the political lesbian movement from the 70s/80s in the states. I think gender separatism in a lot of cases throughout history not only shuts down possibilities for men/mascs to grow and change, but also ends up with more rigid gender ideals just in a different direction

[@lilypryor9015]

Or maybe separatism in general is the antithesis of intersectionality? Idk

[@SigFigNewton]

There were political lesbian movements in the US?

[@lilypryor9015]

@@SigFigNewton there was ! It wasn’t the most popular subset of feminism here but they had lots to say and said it loud lol

[@skullkid64mm]

Your biggest concern is how the oppressor class will grow without women? Why is it our job to handhold men their whole life? Where is the worry for women’s safety which is the main driving force for this movement? If separatism prevents women from ending up as statistics I could give less of a fuck about men’s development/change and gender ideals

[@lilypryor9015]

@@skullkid64mm girl what I didn’t say any of that

[@AviKats66]

Not even 2 minutes in and I’m seething at that tweet shown. If women can so easily bond to and sway men with their “feminine traits” then why is there so much domestic abuse committed by men against their female partners? What about men who target and then assault female acquaintances, or even complete strangers? Are these women just not being “feminine” enough and if they tried harder, or just had that magical “feminine” quality then they could make these men stop abusing them, or have other good “real” men step in to protect them? If women had the power to stop men from abusing us by “acting feminine” then we would be using that and abuse rates would be lower. The reality is abuser choose to abuse becuase of their own issues, and trying to paint women as being capable of controlling men and thus men who abuse them is ridiculous and insulting.

[@manuproulx2764]

Finally someone who has common sense!

[@ennuiblue4295]

they blame women, because they can't control themselves.

[@someguy4405]

Women commit around 50% of domestic abuse.

[@user-mw7lq2kp3b]

To Korean women, why don't you have children? When asked, most people simply say, "Just because." Why is this? Due to the world's highest wage discrimination between men and women and deeply rooted misogyny, 80% of Korean women raise children alone when they get married. Even 50 years ago, they were forced into pregnancy and marriage through kidnapping and rape. Explaining this is exhausting. In Korean society, men are often considered special, so women replace detailed explanations with "just because." If you want to understand how serious South Korea's misogyny and crimes against women are, look into the 'Burning Sun' incident and the recent 'Tzuyang' incident.

[@DK-zn7rt]

I would chose the bear because the man may be french

[@KateeAngel]

What if a bear is French?

[@oess855]

​@@KateeAngel that would be an eldritch abomination

[@leostomicek]

I am an MGTOW, and I support these women. The sexes have nothing to offer each other these days, marriages end in divorce, those marriages that are intact are often not exactly happy. Women talk badly about the men in their lives quite casually. I read somewhere that only like 10% of pairings are actually happy. I do not say single life actually leads to happiness but finding someone usually kinda sucks as well.

[@coolchameleon21]

fair enough

[@tansbizarreadventure]

OMG you talked to hawon jung ! i read her book last year this is so cool ! just finished but my god this was really good, i love how you gave a breakdown of why korea is that way because that truly shows us how women in korea navigate life . also shout out you for this in depth video essay! this is definitely one of my favorites from you

[@worldadventuretravel]

Pros & cons: This is a really well thought-out, comprehensive look at some of the larger themes that turned 4B into a trend as well as a nice info dump on Korean history that most of us educated in the ethnocentric west would never know. You also included thought-provoking critique of the resistance to intersectionality in various movements against oppression. That being said, I do have one criticism, and that is the obfuscation of the very justified and valid reasons that straight women all over the world, whether they call themselves "4B" or not, ARE in fact opting out of becoming intimately involved and/or partnering with men. There is a boatload of data about how women's health, incomes, and overall quality of life spirals straight into hell when they are stuck in cis-het partnerships with men-- along with corresponding data about how men overwhelmingly benefit from these same partnerships due to having their entire lives supported by women's free labor. The reason for the gender divide and why it has reached a tipping point is because capitalism and patriarchy (two sides of the same evil hand) have now revealed for decades that women's interests and men's interests are directly at odds with one another. Women want to protect their safety, peace, autonomy, financial security, and overall health at all costs, which necessitates opting out of being with men. Men on the other hand are interested in dominating, controlling, subjugating, and preserving the existing system to their benefit at the exclusion of women's overall happiness and wellbeing-- and worse, if they can't get it, they seek to destroy, torture, punish, and make women suffer. This is the definition of "irreconcilable differences" and @Elliot Sang, it deserves its own follow-up video. Thanks for reading!

[@Farencio]

I understand where you at getting at, but at the same time I can't see how the movement can be emancipatory at it's fullest when the outing of heterosexual relationships in itself only appear substantial in an individual level but doesn't approach more systemic issues. i'm not heterosexual, I'm bi and I don't engage anymore in relationships with heteros. The reasons are many: usually heteros are narrow minded, discriminatory, oblivious. I'm mentally ill, bipolar type 2, I don't usually date neurotypicals. The same reasons. I don't find these type of acts revolutionary or useful as the only political mediums towards real and radical emancipation, real autonomy or revolution. I think that the most effective times I had politically where in the revolt of 2019 in my country (Chile). I got united with a diverse cast of people: feminists, anarchists, communists, non-affiliated, the educated, the non-educated, the politically engaged and the recently inserted in the middle of a Mad Max movie. The realization that I had is that when people got that we aren't essentially different we have pretty similar goals. It would sorprise you the quantity of men, even hetero men, that wants safety, peace, autonomy, financial security and overall health at all costs. (TA warning) You even be surprised how many men had been SA. That poor, mentally ill, non-hetero, AMAB aren't that different from a non-hetero, afab, mentally ill, poor woman. Men when demonstrate emotions besides anger are seen as childish, and if they're mentally ill is worse. Similarly as women that are mentally ill that are seen as nagging, hysterics. The mentally ill are seen as childs, and in these times children are seen as property and less than human. A friend that I met in a psych ward, who has bipolar type 1, was cancelled because in a football match in a university was manic and talking to a girl; even if he didn't say nothing aggresive it was deemed violent. A student in his career told me of this event, talking against him. That's the account of events: he was being loud, was taken as aggressive. I regret not defending him in that times, I wish I could apologize. Being manic and that type of loudness, the erratic behavior, isn't something you can't control. Controlling that is like expecting that a person with narcolepsy won't get sleepy. Is really frustrating. Perhaps is my perception but sometimes in the discourse of white feminists is a patent ableist tendency where autistic, bpd, npd, bipolar non-afab are pathologized. Not in the same gravity as in the XIX where women where treated as histerical, but is a similar critique that I have of the typical old marxist/anarquist that view women in the movement as a distraction towards proletarian revolution.

[@sonnentausnest]

@@Farencio I feel similarly. Tbh, the feminism that was popular here (central Europe) in my youth, was very much what today is sometimes called "white feminism". Its aim was to get more women to have successful careers in big companies. I'm neurodivergent and disabled, it didn't speak to me. Once I learned about intersectional feminism, that was when I started to get more interested and involved. I happen to be aromantic asexual, so I'm not interested in dating anyway, but yeah. That's not political in my case. I hope people find the personal connections that are safe and fulfilling for themselves, how and wherever they find them.

[@albaniaalban]

While I agree with you that men are the underlying cause of most undue harm to women and your analysis of driving forces (such as how 'safety' is a much more important consideration for women), I do think that this way of thinking does not entirely take into account intersectional aspects. If a white woman wants safety by exiling all black men, is that at odds with men's desire to preserve power structures? If a western woman wishes to ensure her financial security by preserving financial slavery in other countries, is that taking a stance against men's financial hold over women? I think it's important to acknowledge that while men are ultimately the ones in power and responsible for most of the ills, the patriarchy is upheld by dividing and pitting against each other anyone who could threaten the status quo. Your arguments that men seek to destroy, torture, and make women suffer may be true, but one must be vigilant lest one falls too close to the thinking of Browbmiller of Firestone: that black men, given that male supremacy is beyond their reach, must resort to sexual violence - as discussed by Davis in "Women, Race, and Class". Of course, both Wallace ("Black Macho[...]") and bell hooks ("Ain't I a woman") have analysed the patriarchal sexism in the black liberation movement, and similarly the racism in the women's liberation movement - making it clear that men, no matter their position in society, do attempt to establish and uphold patriarchal structures, so... As an aside, I'm curious about the boatload of evidence suggesting being married is actively detrimental to (women's) health and well-being. I don't doubt it, given that (as an example) womenspend between 60-100% more time on childcare per day (American Time Use Survey, 2023), but from what I've read people in romantic relationships generally report higher well-being than their single counterparts (Lee and Ono, 2007, "Marriage, Cohabitation, and Happiness: A Cross-National Analysis of 27 Countries"; Davern et al, General Social Survey 1972-2024).

[@Farencio]

@@albaniaalban I would like to add to the example of black men upholding patriarchal modalities of structure, behaviour and ideology with another example. When the 9/11 occurred a lot of white LGBTQ+ people began to mix their white and 1st world citizen identities with queer politics. Puar named this phenomenon "homonationalism", specially because was prevalent in cis-male gay people. This attitudes and politics weren't specifically taken because they were evil or inherently corrupt but as means to adapt to an hostile environment that marginalized them, and view in muslim culture an even more pressed evil (a short sighted perspective). Even if men have the identity that makes them have a propensity to dominate, torture and exploit women isn't because they desire it but because they don't see another way to survive or live. People go to the supermarket, buy chicken and such even if the meat industry is a place of torture and extreme exploitation of non-human animals because they can't imagine or conceived a world without these structures. Sometimes, specially in the past, farmer traditional women had the capacity of been even more mysoginistic than their husbands because any action contrary to the norm was punished and shunned. My grandmother was that way, from extreme poverty, and even if my mom went to be a lawyer and have money she had to maintain and support my uncle and his family, her half brother product of the infidelity of my grandfather, etcetera. I'm more severe with these actions of my grandmother than my mom, she saw the contexts that perpetuated and encouraged these actions. Wasn't born out of malice but in order to survive and adapt. I'm not saying that you have to be apologetic with evil actions but try to understand why they were made to stop and prevent the causes of exploitation and the mechanisms of it. At the end we can see that the more transphobic, ableist and classist sections of the Korean 4b have conceptual and practical resemblance to mysoginistic power mechanisms. They can't see a world for women to be safe without the exploitation and domination of trans people, the disabled or the poor. Logics of marginalisation. that's why even if have my problems -sometimes severe- with heterosexuals, the bourgeoise, the neurotipicals, etcetera, I don't resent but at the same time I don't will be apologetic and take shit for nothing. Let's try to be critical without being selfcongratulatory to the point of obliviousness.

[@user-mm9ve4le6m]

1) There was never a better time in history to be a woman. You are literally outperforming men in a lot of areas already (e.g. school and college). 2) Marriage increases life expectancy for both men and women: (Google: "Life expectancy and active life expectancy by marital status among older U.S. adults: Results from the U.S. Medicare Health Outcome Survey (HOS)") 3) A famous source (that everyone cites) claiming women are miserable in marriages got debunked: (Google Vox article: "A new book says married women are miserable. Don’t believe it.") 4) You got radicalized on the internet. This is not real life: "Men on the other hand are interested in dominating, controlling, subjugating, and preserving the existing system to their benefit at the exclusion of women's overall happiness and wellbeing-- and worse". This is not how men operate, they are not interested in doing any subjugation. Most men are sick and tired of this image of masculinity. You just don't understand that we literally force men to behave like this (and "we" includes women), to be dominant and emotionless. Seeing your comment, I can guarantee that women like you are one of the main reasons men are the way they are. You probably have 0 empathy for them - which is pretty normal in our society, so don't take it as a personal attack. 5) You are literally the female equivalent of an incel. An overintellectualized and overeducated incel, with a lot of discursive power. But you are an incel nontheless. Touch grass, go outside, actually talk to guys, and you will see that 99% of them don't fit this caricature. The issue is social media: you are in a femcel bubble, and you are simultaneously confronted with the "evil" behavior of men. This is literally the same reason why the men that you describe are hateful towards women. Nowadays everyone can read the unfiltered views of other groups, and this leads to polarization and hatred (Google: The Conversation - "Is social media fuelling political polarisation"). Why should any guy care about women's rights if they see views like yours? You clearly hate men, even if you haven't met 'em. I think everyone should respect each other, but you are 50 % of the problem (not 80 %, but also not 20 %). The men you are describing are living in the same digital environments. They also read comments like yours (and much worse comments). Femcels and incels amplify their hatred towards each other.

[@deeplyjuniper8041]

A fellow Josh Johnson enjoyer! Nice to see him make an appearance

[@LangSmith.]

Your videos feature nuances no doubt, but I’m so thankful of how considerate and open they are. It invites me to think on a deeper level about the world as a whole, especially when I exist in a Western influenced bubble. Feminism cannot succeed without intersectionality, and I root for Korea and the world as a whole to embrace it and the activists that are fighting for it now.

[@detektiveconanfreak]

Your video essays are always a joy to watch and this one especially! I don't know if people who are not korean or have not studied korean social history at an academic level will understand the level of research you put into this. A lot of the sources you cited are books we used in various courses of my masters program or have come up in guest lectures and research for term papers. It's really rare these days to see a differentiated look at such a polarizing topic as the 4B movement and I really think this video can contribute a lot of nuance to the international perspective on it.

[@gunsoup9530]

My work has two resident black bear siblings that just got old enough to separate from their mom. I see them almost every day, I carry a rock to throw at our dumpster to make sure they climb out before I toss trash in. We’ve never had an issue with those little guys hurting a single soul.

[@SeaWitch115]

Thanks for teaching people that black bears are not monsters. They are goofy and give me golden retriever energy in much larger bodies. I worked at a summer camp with rez black bears and we did t things for both human and animal safety. I found whistles were helpful when they got way to close ( waking up to one in the door or your tent). We had one break into the dinning hall it made a mess but all it wanted was chocolate ice cream who can’t relate to that.

[@gunsoup9530]

@SeaWitch115 seriously, unless they're starving they'll leave if you make your presence known. I work on a street that's pretty much all hotels with a river in the back so they just go from trash can to trash can- life is so easy for those little guys lol

[@solarmoth4628]

I’ve been really curious about this. I wanted hear more about Korean feminists perspective on the topic, Hawon’s insight helped to contextualize how the 4B movement fits into Korea’s larger feminist movement.

[@shinygekkouga52]

We neeeed material analysis to appropriately determine why certain societal outcomes happen. Our ruling classes and governments don’t want us to know, and they’d really rather we argue with each other endlessly, but it’s becoming too hard to ignore nowadays.

[@cosmologism3958]

Making a ton of men angry under the banner of "feminism", without directing that anger towards anything productive doesn't accomplish anything to break down patriarchy. All it does is make people angry, and that anger is going to be directed at feminism. Eventually, it should stop being a surprising outcome.

[@MacShrimp411]

It's not ridiculous to say that, it's a good point in some regards

[@gradientcube]

Yeah, misandry and misogyny are both terrible and counter productive. It's why niche groups never usually help anyone. MGTOW and WGTOW people have main character syndrome and think they're more important than they actually are. Probably will apply with this movement too imo. Just work on your trauma. Don't need to force yourself to engage in society if you don't want to.

[@kertchu]

Very profound

[@Comanche8726]

It's not for them to get angry, it's for them to change their manners and laws with the women of their country, only an immature person would rather be complaining than change something about him.

[@markigirl2757]

At this point men really need to go their own way and jsut leave behind women the same can be said the other way. If both sides aren’t willing to come with a compromise nothing will change

[@vitodtin9304]

you know something, this is great! women shouldn't deal with men, women should live the life they want. ironically enough more men should learn from theses women to learn how to live without women.

[@lbwatertribe]

Just finished watching. This is an incredible video! You and your team did a fantastic job! 🔥Side note: I felt seen when you said that some people hold on to dogmatic beliefs for a sense of stability and certainty. I was born and raised in Puerto Rico and I feel that some don't want to change the status quo because of the uncertainty it brings. I know this video is about South Korea but I couldn't help but think about where I grew up. Again, great video!

[@suzygirl1843]

Media has screwed the First World over. They're genociding themselves. I guess, this was prophesized: the return of an all black world.

[@johnsinchi]

So it's a mgtow for women?

[@SkyNick]

sounds a lot similar to 'the cat ladies' phenomenon

[@apricotAfterglow]

​@@SkyNickAt least they're not "expats"

[@coolchameleon21]

comparing those two things is extremely disingenuous.

[@g.o-fish]

This video was excellent, thank you very much for exploration of the complexity but also the presentation of, as you said, "cutting through it". There's a lot to be said about any one of these concepts, like for most good topics.

[@00noenoah]

Came to this video thanks to Jessie Gender recommending you ! This is some quality work you did, so thank you for the enlightement on the 4Bmovement and more genraly the history of women's movement in Korea. I've discovered korean culture now more than 10 years ago and fell in love with the langague, the history of the country and their cinematic work. I went and lived in South Korea for a year with a working holiday. It was 2014 when I lived there, and even knowing that there would be cultural shock for me, it was still hard to realize and accept the problems of the korean society. The divide so big between rich and poors, the treatment of womens and queer people, the racism toward black people, the impossible standards that the young generation has on their shoulders, stucked between the capitalist and modernized system of the country and the traditional values. At the time, I wasn't as much aware as I am now politically, so I didn't know if there was a feminist korean movement and I didn't look into korean women's right history. Later on, after leaving South korea, I heard a little bit about feminist movements organizing there, but didn't take the time to research more.S Same when I started hearing about the 4B movement, I was just glad that south korean women were fighting against the partriarcal korean norms. Anyway all that to just say, again, thank you for this video and making me learn more and have deeper understanding about the 4B and more.

[@enravotaboyadjiev7466]

"They decided to remove the terms "gender equality" and "sexual minority" from textbooks" tell me again miss JK, how queer liberation is actually about erasing women and not fighting the same goddamn patriarchy that oppresses us all. Tell me how the people who hate women's liberation actually love us queers. Go on, tell me

[@notnotlikeothergirls]

So are Zionists and Jehovah’s Witnesses my allies too just because they’ve been targeted by the right wing in the past? Nah. Trans activists colonized womanhood and gay rights the same way that Zionists colonized Palestine. The sooner women cut the cord the better.

[@notnotlikeothergirls]

So are Zionists and Jehovah’s Witnesses my allies too just because they’ve been targeted by the right wing in the past? Nah. Trans activists colonized womanhood and gay rights the same way that Zionists colonized Palestine. The sooner women cut the cord the better.

[@botanicalitus4194]

@@notnotlikeothergirlsis this a joke? Trans people are like 1% of the population and are heavily discriminated against in virtually every single country. They arent colonizing anything, they literally just want to not be discriminated against

[@elisehalflight]

Because at the end of the day, when you hold patriarchal values within your heart, no amount of abuse or repression will be scarier than a feminine man

[@MegaGraceiscool]

​@@elisehalflightwtf are you talking about. She just said a man can be feminine but by having a penis he objectively cannot be treated as a woman, nor can he fully be oppressed in the same way a woman (adult human female) can be. Stop with the strawmen and address the actual argument

[@nikolaybelousov1070]

TL;DW: Short-term economic incentives for relationships/procreation have disappeared, and since in our quarterly-investment-returns era everyone (including men, who have their very own "woman-free ideologies" going) is only thinking short term, that's what we get. See y'all in 20-40 years when millenials/zoomers face retirement and all gov aid being abolished as fatcats claim "there's not enough young slave- ahem, tax revenue for that anymore, sorry."

[@AnneLives81]

This was such this was such a good essay. Showing the intersectionality and connection between so many struggles. I especially loved the call to action at the end to truly connect and see the humanity in each other. There's so much truth to the idea that no one is free until we all are. I was honestly feeling helpless with some of the recent SCOTUS decisions regarding criminalizing homelessness and rolling back federal consumer protectionss, as well as NYC and LA floating potential mask bans. Your essay just knocked some sense into me. Just knowing people do care and want a better world. I needed the reminder.

[@zofiakwiatkowska4646]

As Elle Ray said "I don't hate men. I love me a GOOD man"

[@SigFigNewton]

They’re likely shamed if they fall into your idea of a good man.

[@GabrielEddy]

“Oh look, an extinction movement. Give them three more generations, and then we will invade.” -Kim Jong Un, probably

[@SkyNick]

haha bro Kim won't even need to use any nukes then too

[@ryanvenjoyer]

N Korea's birth rate is supposedly more than double

[@ryanvenjoyer]

But sure, let's give modern folks a pass on the pressures all their ancestors bore, since responsibility and continuing the species are so scary

[@SigFigNewton]

North Korea has enough food to feed an army now?

[@Ooganooganani]

​@@SigFigNewtonDid you forget it has China and Russia as allies?

[@greyfox4838]

every comment where I mention turfs gets removed by youtube I don't get it

[@kaheivi]

oh wow rly? i’m active in feminist spaces especially on twt and all the 4b kfems i’ve seen are turfs 😭. seeing western libfems portray it as a cute little solution was confusing. the patriarchy in sk operates differently than in the west so the women need different solutions obviously but it was kind of weird to see so many creators share this movement without doing any research.

[@elisehalflight]

@@kaheivi gotta love radical feminism accidentally reinforcing patriarchal values over and over again

[@rosabscura]

@@kaheiviyou will never escape your genes.

[@kaheivi]

@@rosabscura you hate urself so bad you have to watch compilations of fat people to motivate the hatred for your own body i rly cannot imagine anything more pathetic.

[@expedition346]

@elisehalflight u r regarded sorry

[@luce6764]

As a korean who currently resides there thank you for the video. My korean abilities are really bad because of living outside the country my entire childhood but I’ve always wanted to connect with more leftist sources here. It’s funny because you’d get attacked for being feminist more than for being a communist so finding feminism that wasn’t TERF-y was difficult. I’ll be sure to check out Jung Hawon and her works. I’ve watched what my aunts and mother go through and what my little sister go through. I’ve heard the way Korean men talk about women when there are no women around and the way they think they’re so biologically superior. It’s no wonder to me why 4B exists or the women who do similarly worth out any purposeful political reason. Also, SONIC THE HEDGEHOG???

[@SemekiIzuio]

Fr I hate when men talk among themselves, they degrade women so bad loose all kinds of respect and dignity for the woman and for themselves as a decent human being. Im not sure when this mentality started it been infecting the men since the dawn of time, people are finally tired of it, im just glad generation after generation there those who do want to right the mistakes from our pasts to be better be better but their are still many those in power who run on greed selfishness and everything.

[@wtheckJackie]

This was amazing! What a feat of scholarship and thoughtfulness and care for others. Thank you for creating this, Elliot.

[@user-tl3vz1xl3w]

As a born and raised Korean woman, I had never heard of 4B movement until foreigners started talking about it in social media. It is not a mainstream at all. There are such tendencies in society, but I've never heard of the actual term '4B'..

[@enhancedutility266]

The Korean economy hasn't grown to keep up with population growth since 1997 when Korea faced the Asian financial crisis in that year plus what other people are not saying is that South Korea has only 30% arable land for farming to feed their people the rest has to be imported and so that's pretty unsustainable because that's more income that has to be diverted from the domestic economy to import food stuffs and that's put in a strain on the government deficit and debt.

[@user-ff6gl5ye4z]

As a trans man, whos lived my life as women.. i think its very differently in there country then America, im glad its happening for south korean women.. i hope things turn out..

[@mina_on_air]

Well, as a Korean woman who chose to leave Korea due to the exact reasons narrated in this video, I had to hit the subscription button. I deeply appreciate how you delineate the issue that women have been screaming for years while 'some' men just do not see where it's coming from in Korea.

[@wombat4583]

I want to add a fact about comfort women. There were Korean collaborators of the Japanese who recruited, so that was another method of becoming one. The information given to them is debatable and can range quite a bit person to person, and the worst of what would/could become of you was likely never disclosed, but some Koreans really did run off, even from noble families, to become comfort women which really goes to show how much they hated their lives and how domineering the men in their life had been. Of course, this is just for some people and range of experiences varies a lot as you described.

[@april9242]

is there a source for this? I just read a Korean person's article where her grandmother was married at 16 during japanese colonial era because her parents were afraid that she would be taken as "comfort woman" by japanese

[@wombat4583]

@@april9242 I first learned of it back in one of my university courses focused on the region so forgive me for not remembering all the sources off hand. The easiest lead I can remember is probably one of the most vocal on the subjects, Sarah Soh, for horrible reasons. As in she would criticize survivors and look for any discrepancies to try and ruin these people. Her sources are valid and her journal works have all been peered reviewed, but it's what she does with that knowledge that's horrendous, but that's one trail that can easily lead to more direct sources. "The Comfort Women: Sexual Violence and Postcolonial Memory in Korea and Japan" does a decent analysis of the different ways people got involved even if I hate the framing of her work and the leap in her logic. As an aside, some not so fun facts, is that the collaborators largely gained political and influential roles post WWII. The south Koreans also really didn't get to model the country how they wanted to post war. Also, Korea pleaded on an international scale for decades under occupation and no one cared until it came to post-war 'alliances'. Other countries were also subjected to 'comfort women' (I still hate the term but it's the most recognizable one) but do to location, bases, history, etc. Korea by far had the most (though I hate comparing because then people like to forget about the rest. Kind of like Ukraine is remembered under the USSR for Holodomor while Kazakhstan who had similar food capacity is ignored along with the rest of Central Asia.

[@wombat4583]

@@april9242 Also want to add that if you do look in to it be prepared to find fighting about terminology and endless debates about victims vs agents, who seem more eager to prove and argue for a side then the nuance of humanity and what I would call a lack of true informed consent. They really do be out there arguing like because most were against their will meant no one found it desirable, and even if they loosely knew what they were getting into didn't mean they consented to what really happened or could really mentally process what happened (it was very systematic that completely destroyed many of their bodies). Sometime academics really isn't any better then people beefing it out online.

[@DankMeme-ni2my]

The man vs bear segment of this video is so stupid it hurts. 1. The question is most likely posed about grizzly/brown bears, so bringing up black bear statistics (which are infinitely more scared of humans than brown bears) is intentionally withholding information to prove your point. 2. Young men being 167 times more likely to kill a someone (not exclusively women) than a bear is as stupid as the whole “you’re more likely to be attacked by a shark in shallows as opposed to deep water” factoid. I’m sure if bears lived in cities with us, and a woman had an equal chance to walk past a bear and a man on the sidewalk, the bear kill count would be much higher. 3. The TikTok you have shown was not correct about several things. Bears aren’t inherently peaceful. Bears regularly kill other bears, what’s to stop it from killing a little human woman? Bears avoid noise, but that doesn’t mean it won’t drop you if it wakes up to you close by and screaming. I don’t imagine that your average man would hear yelling in the middle of the woods and go towards it. Also, bears don’t want or not want to attack people. They’re fine either way. I’m sure we’ve all seen that video of the Russian hunter in the woods desperately trying to keep a lone bear away by aiming his shotgun and yelling. That sure didn’t scare it off, and it was clearly trying to kill him. The majority of men aren’t malicious and would either try to help, or just leave you alone. A smaller percentage would try to get sexual favors, and a very small percentage would go out of his way to do something nefarious to a woman. 4. You say that people conceive of bears the complete wrong way, and that the majority of them are peaceful, yet you do so while portraying the majority of men as exactly what you say bears aren’t. 5. You say that people are unable to answer with critical thinking and knowledge, and say that it shouldn’t be made into a gender wars question. Yet, that’s the entire reason the question was posed, to adds fuel to the fire. And to pretend that it’s just some harmless question that isn’t clearly meant to aggravate men and widen the divide, is just idiotic. You’re right, this is an easy to answer question, and yet somehow you got it wrong. Just think, which would be easier to fend off, a man or a bear, that both want to kill you? And then, which would you be more likely to get help from? This is a gender war question, and acting like men getting offended are just silly and stupid indicates your failure to properly think about what you are actually discussing. Or perhaps you are intentionally leading your viewers astray in order to build up an echo chamber, which in and of itself will perpetuate the gender war that you say is pointless.

[@SkyNick]

everytime this bloke mentioned the word "patriarchy" I've lost brain cells, can't wait for you to be labeled as an incel for presenting factual info

[@apricotAfterglow]

Incel word wall lmao.

[@agord7591]

​@@apricotAfterglow Damn, can't make a point without being an incel now?

[@apricotAfterglow]

@@agord7591 There isn't a point to be made when you're promoting misogyny.

[@agord7591]

@apricotAfterglow My bad, I forgot who I was talking to. No discussion, just buzz word character attacks.

[@PetalsandGems]

I swear, between you, Moon Channel, and other essayists sure to follow you in my feed, I'm going to accidentally wake up one day feeling like I deeply understand the cultural tensions, reactions and criticisms underlying K-Pop. Cut to the clip of Psy on the toilet, Clarence. ;)

[@nic_eli]

i would choose men/women but some of them just treat u like a sex toy and groom u and abuse u so I think imma stick to myself atp..😭😭

[@emzmuu]

The 4B movement in South Korea I feel won't be a trend, but something that was building up internally for a long time and now the new age of women are speaking out about it I'm not Korean but I've heard of several cases where men have severely abused women and girls Telegram with the nth chat rooms as you mentioned driving young teen girls to end their lives. But some also had illegal filming of infants or secretly filmed their own young female family members Burning Sun club itself is a whole mess and shows a darker side to the idol industry besides the training. Referring to women as water and spiking their drinks and so much more went on. And the "Buchima" "Don't Ask Questions/Why" crimes, random attacks such as a man spin kicking a woman, almost killing her. Just because she didn't smile at him so he stalked her. And a case where a man blamed women for why his life wasn't going the way he wanted it to so he waited in a bathroom stall waiting for any girl to come in and when one did he killed her. There's been many of these types of attacks, that's why theres even a name for it now. The sentences are too light and the government has failed the people. The Korean goverment also launched a "National Birth Map" showing the number of women of birthing age in each municipality. Even with the Molka, theres no sense of privacy

[@zainmudassir2964]

Remember gents , wherever you are. Respect Women

[@Iranoutofideasforachannelname]

Yea, no shit, pal

[@julao_]

This is not related to this wonderfully made video, but I'm gonna start saying "USsian" from now on. Makes much more sense than "american" when they don't own any of the Americas (Continents btw) and cuz United States is the name they chose for themselves anyways. I'm not born in the US, but if they're American, I'm American too it's only fair

[@unknownunknown5822]

Avoid men, get educated, make money, take down politicians with said money, get cat 🎉💅

[@bannedmann4469]

High grade cope here.

[@kertchu]

Men should avoid women too

[@SemekiIzuio]

​​@@bannedmann4469 there really is no way out, either you get educated and make bank or your f for the rest of your life unless ofc you come from a wealthy family, you have better opportunities to progress even faster or fail and still be fine. This applies to even men.

[@alexal8088]

Please do just that! There will be no more people with your ideology in a few generations since y’all stopped reproducing 👏👏👏

[@verlyne_sky]

avoid creepy ppl*

[@explainableai6975]

At 41:49 you try to argue using "statistics" that everyone should in fact choose bear. However, as a PhD in statistics, I have learned that there is more ways of deriving wrong/biased conclusions than correct ones. This is why people study years of statistics to understand all of the systematic biases in statistics. So what did you do wrong in your analysis ? Simply put, you are comparing two things (# of male attacks vs. #number of bear attacks) directly. These numbers are collected in different context. It is not good "statistics" to compare data in different context since it introduces something called "confounding bias." What is the "context" you might ask ? Well bears literally live in the woods and very few people encounter bears if at all during their whole lifetime... on the other hand, everyone meets at least 10 people per day e.g, walking to the store, or at work etc... this bias obviously will skew the number of bear attacks to much lower, hence it is not good practice to compare it directly to male attacks. It is possible to "adjust" for confounding bias using "do-calculus" but I won't bother go into that... just ask yourself another hypothetical instead... do you think people would choose to meet 10 bears daily, or 10 men.... the answer should be obvious

[@cunjoz]

can't believe he made such an elementary mistake. calls the entire endeavor into question.

[@crystalrader805]

Men are needed for order and protection? That is absurd. This is a man-made idea for Men to convince of women their importance. Ask yourself, what would a man protect a woman from? The answer is other men.

[@luigigaming2717]

What is the logical conclusion of this? Eliminate males all together? Sorry, dear, but here in reality land males exist, and you need other men to dispatch and get rid of dangerous men. Imagine if women had to convince men of their importance to society like they're some worthless infection ruining society. If you consider this bad, then you'd be a hypocrite.

[@akakac]

Bingooooo

[@akakac]

​@@luigigaming2717ignorant

[@luigigaming2717]

@@akakac bad attempt at an ad hom

[@franklinhuang]

Loved the link between reproductive rights and gender-affirming care.