Imoen - A Baldur's Gate Video Essay

[@LilianOrchard]

This is the final video of 2023. I will be on vacation for the remainder of the year and begin working on a video revisiting Spy x Family in January. Thank you all for supporting me through an especially tough year, especially one where harassment and transphobic hate campaigns have reached their zenith. If you aren't already, I would very much appreciate that you support me on Patreon. KZbin's recommendation and algorithm changes have hit a lot of creators very hard, but if you can't pledge I certainly understand. Thank you for watching, I will see you all next year.

[@arbitarious]

You were harassed? I'm so sorry that happened. I hope you're okay and I hope you have a great and relaxing vacation

[@LilianOrchard]

@arbitarious I've been harassed and lied about for years, this isn't new information

[@arbitarious]

@@LilianOrchard oh. My bad. That's awful. I hope they get their karma.

[@eggperson1794]

you're one of the best video essay youtubers ive ever seen, cant believe some goofy goobers would harass you

[@helenarosno]

Have a wonderful holiday with your loved ones Lily! I'm excited to hear more about Spy x Family. I'll have to catch up on eps over winter break!

[@courtlandfargo5251]

I think this is why people love Kim Kitsuragi from Disco Elysium. No matter how much of a drunken mess you are, Kim has your back and takes the time to let you get your act together. My favorite scene from that game is when you and Kim sit together on a swing set while you work out your feelings about being a failure.

[@aaronschultz4061]

To add onto your comment it takes the player making the protagonist a facist and then calling Kim a slur before your relationship breaks, i really love how Kim outright states he will only stay by your side to protect the investigation from you. Honestly Disco Elysium is my favourite game in that regard.

[@phthalo_blue]

If you have high enough Espirit de Corps at the beginning of the game, part of Kim's introduction is a line saying he would literally take a bullet for you. While he certainly doesn't always approve of the stuff you do - whether that's just because he's a spoilsport or you're actively ruining the investigation (because the game is built so you tend to fail at least one major plot beat) - he sticks with you regardless. It's very touching in a setting that's otherwise uncomfortably real in its bleakness.

[@purplenova7690]

I went into Baldur’s Gate 3 practically blind, and despite being either getting a good laugh out of most of the companion intros, Wyll was the one that made me sit up. He was just brimming with personality, and I made it a priority to bring him around and do good with him.

[@braiangabriel638]

​@@kur0shir060Actually,he did what he did to save the city from being consumed by an evil entity

[@KG7Plaz]

Provoke the Blade... and suffer its sting!

[@kur0shir060]

@@braiangabriel638 As I said, I agree he had his reason and some highlight. Doesn't change the fact that he has a lot of reflexion showing he is easy to lead by the nose, doesn't have much knowledge about what should be his expertise, and have no regret using said power before being transformed as a devil himself and by so being dick slapped by reality, hence the hypocrisy: devils and their powers are bad, especially when I'm not the one benefiting from them, and specially when I'm not their TARGET. Talk about a hero. At that point, give an op magic sword to anyone and you could have a hero that way. Wyll is, at best, a wannabe hero with a daddy complex who don't want to assume his responsibilities as a noble (where he could probably help and save more people, if not for the story of bg3).

[@braiangabriel638]

@@kur0shir060 I think that's what makes him an interesting character

[@kur0shir060]

@@braiangabriel638 i think the idea is something I like but it was really poorly executed and they made too much of a joke of him for me to like it.

[@katieg1071]

The bit about the tickle fight really hit. I've rewritten this comment several times and I don't have the brain power currently to fully articulate my point, but my favorite thing in all of fiction is seeing people who have been dealt horrible lots in life still finding ways to experience joy and happiness and love, even if it's only a brief respite before diving back into the agony. It's just so much more satisfying to me than a non-stop misery festival. Maybe I'm a dork who loves hope and optimism and wants a happy ending for all the characters I love. But it's something I don't see a lot outside of my own writing. I just love love. More broadly, I love character relationships more than anything. That's the whole point of it to me. And you understand that.

[@katieg1071]

@@gregoryvn3 You're absolutely right. That's why I don't understand the appeal of all sadness all the time in stories. If I wanted that I would just watch the news!

[@mrbrightsidetf2]

Totally agree. The first thing that came to my mind with this characterization is Berserk. And sure, it's known for its dark fantasy themes and misery that surrounds its characters but specifically thanks to that the moments of calmness, reflection, laugh are SO much more valuable. The Beach scene with Guts looking over his new comrades and Casca is one of my favourite scenes in fiction because of that.

[@Armaggedon185]

I am SO happy Wyll is getting some love!

[@baydiac]

The Wyll appreciation squad continues to grow. As it SHOULD!

[@therotryzit]

Didn't expect the dissertation of Flanderization as a concept from this magnificent character piece. This is like the crown jewel of your work as a critic and it really shows. Such an amazing watch!

[@mikailaturkleson7472]

God this was a delight. I live for Lily's character analysis and this did not disappoint. Just hearing her talk about how much she loves Imoen and why made me love Imoen and characters like her very quickly. We really do need more characters like her in gaming. We need more relationships like the War and Imoen in gaming. The closest thing I can think of to these two since Baldur's Gate is Grace and Freddie in Stray Gods, and that might be because they were created by one of the writers from Baldur's Gate 2! I wish we had more low stakes fantasy games driven by personal motivations and held together by the bonds of lifelong friends, but I am happy for what we got with these two. It should tide me over until we get it again, someday. You did wonderfully on this, Lily. It was clear all throughout that this topic was very personal for you and I'm glad you shared it. I love you so much

[@DoctrDoc]

I second that this was delightful, that character analysis is a skill you've cultivated excellently, AND I love it when you love things.

[@nexxanor-1059]

When baldurs gate 3 first came out I only ever saw people talk about Astarian and how he’s so attractive and deep and the best character so the shock of me asking my friend who’s played the game about him saying hes not even top 5 most interesting characters

[@game_boyd1644]

I fucking love this channel. You make me give a shit about characters I've never met, movies and shows I've never watched, and games I've never played, solely through your talent at eloquently explaining your feelings on them.

[@helenarosno]

the language she uses to appreciate imoen's character is inspiring! she sounds like the type of character i would hope to write into my own stories

[@theMillieBun]

i cant express how much your videos/blog have gotten me invested into Imoen...i went from being disinterested in playing BG1 and stopped right after the first big story event with gorian, to forgetting where i was in the game and redownloading it again and being genuinely exited to see Imoen when i loaded up my save

[@Naoise012]

Having never played a Baldur's Gate game, I heard your description of a deeply loyal and adorable childhood friend character and immediately thought "Wife her right now!" Only to have to very suddenly rethink that when the picture of Andrew & Ashley popped up. I've never 180'd that hard before. Despite my, at this point theoretical, love of romance I do have to appreciate a strong friendship though, and the fact that they went as far as to make them actual siblings is a great idea!

[@LilianOrchard]

Wow I got you to ship something and stop shipping it in record time lol

[@Lexyr_]

In a year of fantastic videos, I don't know if there could've been a greater punctuation mark. This was a fantastic watch, both on the critical side with your exploration of companions and how fandom affects them, and the emotional side with the deeper character exploration of Imoen. I think both the intro and outro of this video are genuinely beautiful. You should be proud of this Lily, this was amazing.

[@r.kolemaistos7788]

Imoen so completely hooked me that the "established childhood friend or sibling" remains my favourite companion trope throughout all CRPGs. Jade Empire's Dawn Star, Dragon Age II's Bethany / Carver, Safiya in MotB (alright that's a bit more... complicated). Might have something to do with being an only child... Although the essay on flanderisation was interesting, it would have been nice to delve more deeply into the (unfortunately named) Imoen Romance mod, which to its eternal credit among fan work manages to avoid this pitfall rather well. Then again, what I like about this mod is mostly the Obsidian-ish, "oppressively bleak" ToB portion where you're able to slowly "corrupt" (hate using that term, the writing really gets you into questioning what morality even applies to their situation) Imoen into ascending alongside Charname by way of long philosophical ramblings... I couldn't agree more on the over-the-top BG3, but I think you should give Obsidian games another chance. In Kotor II and MotB they were explicitly trying to counterbalance the cliched, black-and-white predecessors. But in PoE and Tyranny their writing is more balanced, overall. Eder has a lot of Imoen in him. This is also why I think the Sam comparison falls somewhat flat: what's so appealing about Imoen is that she's not about "us saving the world together", but rather just "us". There's a brilliant bit of introspective dialogue in ToB where she says something to the effect of sure, she'd prefer to be nice, be well-liked by people, but deep down she doesn't really care as long as the two of you are safe. That to me is some really unusual, daring characterisation of an outwardly "good" character forced by the realities of the world to come into their own and define their real priorities, which implicitly asks some very relevant questions about how horizons of empathy play into what's considered virtuous. And, I'd argue, it pulls all of this off without ever veering off into grimdark territory: Imoen is still her sugarpuff self; after all, these two elements of her character are nothing if not complementary.

[@rethinkery]

thank you for sharing your comment about Jacob from ME. I always thought he got such unfair treatment from both the devs and players.

[@ToxicMynd]

The only other rpg I can recall where one of the party members is your sibling is Shadowrun Hong Kong. His name is Duncan Wu and its honestly nice to just chat between missions and relive some of the childhood you shared. But it gets undercut by the main plot being about finding your adoptive dad and being on the run. Also the fact that you haven't seen eachother for years and have grown apart because you were locked up in a corporate blacksite.

[@skeletonsinscarves3965]

Ive been in such a terrible cycle of depression and stress for a good couple of months now and i don't know how you do it but hearing you talk about these characters and how they interact with the main character it just made me think about my best friend whos been there for me since high-school, he means the world to me like hes my brother. I just texted him how much i love him and how much he means to me. You are so genuine lily you always have been, and i always feel like you're helping people with videos like these, letting folks feel like "wow this is what I've felt for so long" Thank you for everything you do ❤

[@AsterSapphire777]

Thank you for putting out such bangers this year Lily, especially since it was a rough one. I'm not even five minutes in typing this but I can already tell it'll be a good one. Bauldurs Gate III was my intro intro the franchise and I hadn't considered trying the others until I saw Lily's love for it. I enjoy BG3 but it's really refreshing hear her critiques of it as a long time player. That kinda passion is what keeps me coming back to rhis channel. Wishing Lily and Makaila a peaceful, restful vacation!

[@mikailaturkleson7472]

Thank you Sapphire. Your endorsement is heartening. How you have a wonderful holiday too!

[@Persphone_cabin]

13:05 we’ve been doing this as early as the Romans rewriting Greek mythology

[@pkmnherofan22]

God I can tell how much love and passion went into this video and it’s a shame the numbers are demotivating. I’m gonna start donating to your patreon today and I hope if nothing else me saying that the passion you have for this franchise makes me want to support you makes you reconsider making more videos about stuff you love

[@LilianOrchard]

Honestly, "There's a lot of passion in this" is a very backhanded remark. It'd be better to talk about the actual analysis

[@pkmnherofan22]

Alright, I think you did a great job breaking down how barebones a lot of rpg companions can be in a way that even has me rethinking companions in games that I like. Fan of obsidian games. And while I’m always huge on New Vegas I’m now realizing that the companions are definitely the weakest part, they have a variety of ways you can interact with them and affect their story sure but I can’t honestly say that any one of them has stuck with me the same way Imoen has stuck with you and it’s probably because New Vegas Can also be played in a single player mode so they didn’t put as much detail as you would for something like BG where you have a party for the whole game. When I talk about the passion I genuinely mean I can tell how much Imoen and her story means to you and so many others because I can’t think of many other characters that someone would devote a decade to to flesh out more in mods and that’s kind of the point of the video. She’s such an engaging and delightful character that it throws into contrast how thin other characters in modern RPGs are

[@alexberg4769]

One of life’s greatest joys is having a best friend who’s there for you through everything no matter what

[@elizabeths.3307]

"She knew you were a bhallspawn the whole time and wanted to come with you anyway." Aww :,) This character really is lovely. Yeah, definitely feel you on the whole not giving the PC any backstory so the player can 'project onto them' tends to leave me wanting for motivation to really engage with the main quests.

[@eptck]

the ending just solidifies everything i try to do as a writer . i dont shy away from heavy subject matter , but it's lost and meaningless if you dont get to see what makes those things worth getting through in the first place . making characters do nothing but suffer is how you get them to consider suicide , and im far too familiar with suicidality to see it as anything but a waste of what could have been a fulfilling life . i am interested in how characters react to dark situations , but in the sense that i want to see how they learn to feel joy again . because finding joy in the bad times is , to me , fundamental to life , and humanity

[@kiwo579]

this is my second video ive seen of yours and im hooked, just wanna say thanks for making this cause it made me think about stuff

[@izanblancoqureshy]

help meee the description of the genuinely touching moment brought tears to my eyes 😭it's so true though that it's moments like those that really stick with people (or at least me idk lol) and I wish more stories would have those also it's insane how much better your videos have gotten over the course of this year... like each time I'm lo-key blown away by how investing and interesting they are. so nice job!! hoping to a very slay 2024!!!

[@Tuna-gu9un]

When this comes up I think of outer worlds. Granted an obsidian game but if you do the good ending it is really hopeful because of YOUR choices. It’s kind of a short game if you don’t do all the companion quests (like most RPGs) but all of them are super rewarding to play and see the characters succeed. You don’t get a special gun, or broken buffs for making sure Parvati date goes perfectly but you do anyway because you want to see these characters happy

[@arbitarious]

Omg Parvati my ace lesbian queen

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

I think there's a real issue of flanderization is that it isn't just born out of misunderstanding of original source, but idea of characters being written different from expected is a writing sin that adaptation and other works can just ignore and change it to fit the mold of expectation based on fandom. And with that come a lot of genuine misunderstanding of why the writing worked in the first place and compelling bits of original intend get swayed aside. While I can believe in good changes, I do find a worrying magnitude of thinking and lack of consideration displayed by people and often their defense relies on popularity contest on how their opinion is more popular than yours.

[@helenarosno]

idk anything about rpgs, but my little brother likes them. he was super excited about baldur's gate 3 and asked me if i wanted to watch him play it. i honestly didnt understand why the characters were teaming up. at first i thought that they must know each other somehow because of how quickly they formed a group, but my brother told me that they were all strangers. he had to explain to me how rpgs work. he said that rpgs always have companion characters and so instead of wasting money and time on explaining how the characters team-up, "they speed-run that part", but i felt like that was just an excuse lmao. they obviously spent a lot of time making the game look pretty, they could have spent at least a little bit of time making the relationships less confusing/awkward

[@SiddarthaTB]

Its because Larian as a studio don't care about writing, since the beginning they were only focused on the world reacting to your choices and background. Larian's design also makes it harder to write for the companions since they have to work as a main character in their playthrough as well as a companion in a custom origin playthrough. The writers do write some amazing stuff in the Companion Origin run

[@Keram-io8hv]

Like this is basically usual DnD stuff "You meet in tavern, let's go kill someone" was basically way how my three year lasting campaign started

[@Crause88fin]

It's so good to hear someone go through his, since I absolutely adore Imoen. You say she's beloved, but she's also much downplayed, and receives outright hatred (mainly from the vocal power gamer Internet men though, so... It doesn't really amount to much) at times. This video soothed my soul, since I've always felt I'm kind of alone with my appreciation of my "little sister" from BG. But I guess that's also a good thing when you think about it - that feeling also speaks about it being an intimite and personal feeling, which is exactly what Imoen evokes. Great analysis.

[@skeletonsinscarves3965]

I feel like i understand what flanderisation is now thanks lily

[@inamelzvoice]

One video game I truly enjoyed when I was a teen was Assassin's Creed 2, exactly because the playable character, Ezio, came with a family. The slow start gets you attached to all of those family member so quickly, and so when you see Ezio's father and brothers get injustly killed, and see Ezio flee with his mother and sister, it's giving you all the emotions. Of course you wanna avange your father and brothers. Of course you wanna protect your mother and sister. Add to that the absolutely sweet friendship of Leonardo da Vinci, and its just a great game. I don’t even remember the rest of the story or the villains because those characters had such an impact, and I would have miss all of this if Ubisoft had decided to do the "blanck main character to make the player project onto" like they had done in the first Assassin's Creed with Altaïr. Now that I think about it, if there's one good thing in most old JRPG is that yeah, they are suffocating in the fact that you can't really choose the direction of the story, but they were great at giving you companions with stories intertwined with yours, and make you care about them. Makes me wonder how great of a RPG game it would be if all your companions are, like, friends and family members. Yeah, it reduce a lot the romance options, but just... Of course they would follow you and help you in your advanture. Of course it would be fucking crushing if one of them died because you did a mistake during a battle.

[@jimmyrolls37]

It took me many years to finish bg1 and bg2, due to growing up without use of a PC for gaming, then having a laptop that couldn't run the original gameproperly, to another pc being lost in a flood, a data disk not installing, etc etc. (Basically bad luck turned this into a 25 year oddyssey for me) I finally just finished both very recently(on switch, WITH mods) and basiclaly spent my entire adulthood loving the imoen character for essentially the reasons you outlined here. For me, it made the story of my bg character more worthwhile than any other companion. I refused to play through without better portraits for her, even on the switcversion. And yes the camp scene was the most heartwarming moment of friendship I think i have ever experienced in an rpg. We may not all love everything being done differently in rpgs now, but we did at least have this.

[@pikaace]

36:03 I don't know if this is just me, but if *I* was dropped into an MC position in a CRPG, I would LOVE to have a pre-existing childhood bestie like Imoen there at the start before the plot got rolling. I like to feel warm and loved by friends and family BEFORE having to go on my harrowing and life-changing journey, sue me. (Also, you being one of the few I've seen making the connection between Astarion and Preminger made me unbelievably happy, you have no idea)

[@mastabeta85]

Great video and I say this as someone who jumped in this series with BG3. You better have a video on Viconia because that rabbit hole is the reason you popped up on my algorithm. *Chef's kiss*

[@fern1009]

27:20 Thank you Lily for reminding me that Sam is the Man. That goes without saying, but a reminder is always appreciated ;)

[@seanfox4121]

So I just finished baldurs gate 1 and had ALOT of fun. It still holds up really well. However, there is an inaccuracy I noticed in your video about imoen never leaving the party. Maybe that was a thing in baldurs gate 2, but in the first game she is neutral good and if you commit too many evil acts/your reputation goes down too far she does leave the party. I learned the hard way and had to reload from a past save to reverse it 😅😂

[@UltraIsa297]

This is the first video I’ve ever seen of yours and it was so good. I had crush on Imoen and she is the one I base most of my D&D characters on

[@kdotdreamer]

gotta say, ive been on a baldurs gate hiperfix these past weeks and as someone that had no knowledge of its existence prior i think this whole thing with imoen is so so interesting! your gushing of her qualities made me realise that yes god absolutely characters like her are so delightfull and fun, its kinda like a variant of the "best friends to lovers" concept (in the sense of a character just being so loyal and adoring their friend so intensily and sticking with them for so long, its very touching). i heard the baldurs gate videos dont do very well wich sucks bc i think your perspective on it is very refreshing and insightfull

[@katoninedice4141]

For whatever it's worth? This was an easy top 5 for me. You make great content.

[@yellowmrslzlzshfksj]

While I have some comments on the analysis itself below, I will first say that, as a work of yours, this feels very...complete. I don't know you, but I've watched a lot of your videos over several years, so - to some degree - I've come to know your ideas. The thoughts, conclusions, positions and so on that have been developed and changed over time. This video struck a bit of a chord in me precisely because of that, I think. It's an evolution, a conclusion (even if, as with almost all such things, each "final" conclusion is only the starting point of another line of thought) that pulls from much of your past work in a way that is difficult to articulate beyond the obvious. I enjoyed watching it very much; the bit of history regarding Imoen's original, rapid development and how it resulted in an interpretation of her actions was an interesting note - as someone who runs games, I've seen this kind of phenomenon play itself out in miniature at my tables. Regarding Baldur's Gate 3 and its stronger thematic connection to Critical Role than Dungeons&Dragons, I actually see it somewhat differently. I've noticed, in the 5e-focused modern D&D spaces I am in, a similarity of vibe to the game. The caveat - or, I would say, the illuminating detail - is that often, these spaces are dominated or at least heavily shaped by a contingent of people who don't play D&D; some never have, some merely don't do so regularly, some don't anymore, etc.. So I would say that, in this sense, Baldur's Gate 3 feels like it draws inspiration from the D&D-adjacent crowd - of which "Critical Role watchers" are certainly a part - in general; the people who know *of* D&D, who like the *idea* of D&D, and so on, without necessarily having a group, playing, etc.; a sort of "theoretical D&D player" group (ironically, similar yet vastly different to the 3.5-era theoretical player group).

[@courtlandfargo5251]

God, I forgot how much of a sucker I am for Samwise Gamgee.

[@BinnyKing]

I don't know why I'm crying, but I'm gonna go dust off my copy of Baldur's Gate. Thanks, Lily!

[@jonasboel2473]

I haven't played BG1 or 2, but this has given me the desire to. I love tonal shifts. High *and* low points. So the "two demigods of death rolling in the grass laughing like children." Sounds like my cup of tea.

[@kaldishelbryndjar]

"I hate how long-winded these games can get," they said within a 45 minute essay. Jokes aside, this was a fantastic view and I agree 100% more fantasy needs to learn from Samwise and Imoen.

[@dermotlouchart191]

Bought the enhanced editions of Baldur’s Gate I and II because I heard a lot of hype about the third one but don’t have anything that can play it, and I’m just now finally getting to Throne of Bhaal. In a series of games with some absolute bangers of companions (tbh I even like the ones Beamdog did that I’ve encountered), Imoen is still my favorite. I loved her in BG1, and having my Gorion’s Ward lose her at the beginning of Shadows of Amn was one of the most devastating moments I’ve experienced in an RPG. And that’s basically just the inciting incident of that game! I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to do a run of these games where she isn’t in the party basically the whole time, she’s just so good to have around.

[@ArtemisMoon90]

That bit about finding the happy moments even in the bleakest of darkness being the highlight of character interactions really speaks to me. My best friend and I found each other though an emotional support group and have both been through some rough shit even in the time that we've known each other. But despite that the moments that can't help but stick with me are the silly goofy times like playing tag across a college campus or having a food fight. I feel like having both the ups with the downs is what makes characters feel alive and memorable. I wish we got to see that more.

[@zlgale1]

Loved the video. It actually gave me new appreciation for Kaidan and Jacob Plus its always nice to hear you talk about stuff you like.

[@codymatt7]

goddamn. this was a fantastic video that actually made me think about my own characters and their relations and stuff

[@ZeonTwilight]

Beautiful video Lily. It's been really nice watching you over the years, you've steadily grown as critic and individual, been through some serious junk, and lately it feels like a new light is shining in you. Keep up the good work. Rest well, and see you next year.

[@colbaltmind5696]

I guess at the end of the day all we want is just someone who'd follow us to the ends of the earth, just like we'd do for them.

[@MallyThePony]

Good vacation and rest well ! Thanks you for this video, even if I've never played old crpg, I've always wondered how companions where back in the days. I hope we will get new characters in new rpgs like the one you like !

[@John_Taco]

I know you probably won't see this but, Ive been watching your videos for the past year. I always enjoy watching them, and while I dont always agree with you I always like the difference in perspective. You always make good points that while dont change my mind on things they do always get me thinking. I just wanted you to know that i appreciate you. For whatever thats worth. So thank you

[@Taurgis2]

honestly. i think i kinda agree with you. quiet moments matter. and its sad that the genre doesnt show them more.

[@seanfox4121]

I started with baldurs gate 3 and I found it fun. That being said, my favorite character in the game is jaheira because of her snark and how much history is organically conveyed in her conversations (and yes, I know it's because she's from the first 2 games). Between listening to jaheira and your video here (and the other shorter one you did before), it made me eager to try out the previous games. I have the enhanced editions both on PS 5 and PC through steam. Thank you for encouraging me to give these a go!

[@LilianOrchard]

"My favourite is Jaheira because of her snark" Every character in BG3 snarks.

[@birdthenerd2163]

22:00 apparently the reason all the mandalorians are “yarrr warrior culture” is cause they were originally written by a self admitted fascist who didn’t think that for any to run they would need doctors and cooks and merchants and stuff.

[@mikailaturkleson7472]

Oh? Is there anywhere I could read up on this?

[@birdthenerd2163]

@@mikailaturkleson7472 I unfortunately can’t find the articles that I read about them cause I found them on a reddit thread but the author was Karen Traviss

[@flob8862]

more OG Baldur's Gate videos essays pleaase loved this one

[@benlehmann4080]

Wyll is the most real character in the bg3 lineup. Idk how anyone could sideline him.

[@seanfox4121]

With your point about quieter moments, more even tones, less intensity, im starting to agree with you on that one. My favorite star wars story ever might be the kotor comics for this reason. Its not about a big galaxy shattering jedi vs sith war, its about this group of complex characters making the best of their difficult situations and going through very personal conflicts. I highly recommend it 👌 Ive found more to appreciate in stories like that more recently.

[@Eclipsed_Embers]

honestly that whole rule people seem to have about the protagonist having no pre-established relationships is a big part of why I prefer RPGs that have pre-set non-customizable characters, because those games often feel far more comfortable in giving those characters pre-established relationships. I feel like the best examples of the right and wrongs of this that I can talk about are the Xenoblade Chronicles series in the original Xenoblade Chronicles 4 of your 7 party members have known each other since childhood and already have very close relationships that only deepen as the game goes on. I think that this is absolutely brilliant, and most of the relationships between those 4 are fantastic and well fleshed out (only exception is Reyn and Dunban... for the life of me I can't recall even a single direct interaction or heart to heart between those two from the entire game, but both of them are still very closely linked to Shulk and Fiora so that's fine) Xenoblade Chronicles 2 completely drops the ball here. between the 12 guarenteed party members there are a grand total of 4 pre-established relationships, none of which overlap with each other in any way, and by the end of the story that 12 is basically boiled down to only 4 actually being important at all (while everyone else is basically just reduced to standing in the background making an occational comment) and in that cutting down of things only 1 of those pre-established relationships is left in the spotlight. then Xenoblade Chronicles 3 kinda fixes it again. the main party of 6 is made up of 2 groups of 3 that have known each other since childhood, instantly much more compelling out of the gate. Baldur's Gate 3 had the perfect opportunity to do something here with their origins, just have any of the possible party companions know each other before the start of the game and bam, a pre-established relationship ready for the pre-built character. the custom-made self-inserts can still have their complete blank slate of no pre-existing relationships for those that want such a situation. the closest it gets is Will and Karlach, 2 characters that have never met before the start of the game but who's stories are at least partially interlinked, better than I can say for the rest of the cast...

[@Ziklawz]

Amazing piece, the part about the showy flandered personas that companios get/become with time was realy interesting. Got me in the mood to replay BG 1 and 2 again. Any chance we can get a list of the mods used? That UI and portraits looked great!

[@AliaaImad]

People have a habit of overly simplifying characters and even full stories, Look what they did to Avatar the last Airbender, And Lord of the rings, They only remember them for big dramatic moments and not for the actually important quieter character moments.

[@WingedRose96]

it's always a great day waking up to a new Lily video and having a brand new plethera of food for thought to sit with all day 🥰 i had never even heard of Baulder's Gate until 3 came out and a ton of my tabletop and RPG loving friends began gushing about it. for transparency, from everything i've heard about it i don't know if it's a game i would personally enjoy, but on the whole i do adore character interactions more than most anything else in a story. after hearing you talk about her, i think Imoen would easily be my favorite character of the whole franchise. you're definitely not alone in the camp of wanting more heartfelt, tender moments amidst so much angst and grimdark. it's like you were saying in your recent SU video, having more quiet moments between characters can lead to amazing storytelling. but if the characters aren't very compelling then it makes it difficult to sit through several hours of gameplay and take anything away from it. having more characters like Imoen, Sora and Sam that just openly love their friends and family is a breath of fresh air that more media needs. also yes, more games where the protaginist is more their own person with their own motivations. it might be a weird example but this was something i really enjoyed when i saw it done in Genshin Impact of all things. the entire reason you're on this journey is to try and find your twin that you've been separated from. no matter where you go, who you meet and what you do, that motivation never changes. even with all the companions you meet and the praise you're given as a hero all you ever ask for is any information the dieties of this world might have about your twin sibling. and after two continents worth of L after L, you FINALLY meet someone who not only knows your sibling personally but knows how to possibly find them. it's a break from routine that leads to seeing your sibling face to face for the first time since arriving in the world and despite pleading with them to join you and just go home, they say no they can't. and not only do they leave you behind to go with the game's enemies but your one and only lead to find them again chases after them without you leaving you completely lost and alone all over again with no direction. it leads to a very somber moment where you look out over the world around you and Paimon does her best to cheer you up but you start the next story quest in a VERY upset mindset. all your dialogue options in the next region start out with very short, abrasive answers just with varying degrees of how politely you want to tell people to leave you alone and no you actually DON'T feel like dropping everything to solve all their problems. a friend of mine said they really didn't like how much of an asshole the Traveler was being but i told them it was one of my favorite parts of the game. it gave so much more weight to the following quests where you see just how defeated this region is after their own hopes and aspirations are taken away from them. it gives you and the Traveler more to relate to and helps encourage them to want to help rather than it just being par for the course cuz plot. i love that a lot more than just blindly going from country to country and losing sight of the entire reason for doing this just for the sake of some hot characters and boss fights. ANYWAYS!!! (sorry for the long ramblings 😅) i hope you and Mikaila have a fantastic holiday season, a wonderful and restful vacation, and a happy new year 💕💕💕 i'm so excited to see and hear more from you in 2024!!

[@gbode2443]

On the topic of BG3s introduction im reminded of Rogue Traders intro which i got through a few days ago. In that the core of your retinue is gathered together in the tutorial and are working together out of loyalty to the spaceboats captain. When that captain dies and by heredity youre the new captain they stick around more out of respect for the position rather than you. Too sleepy to thiink of a larger point but i just found it really compelling. Abelard is a dog with a chainsword and i love him 10/10

[@andsocanu]

Wow. Well, now I need to go play all the other Baldur's Gate games to get all this awesomeness that I missed.

[@draglitch9063]

Honestly this video made me super interested in learning about the previous baldurs gate games and about bhaalspawn in general. the dark urge was my favorite part of 3, and now that i've seen others, im kind of disappointed that we don't have more specifics for his backstory and motivations. all the other bhaalspawn get to have personalities and history, but durge just gets a convenient blank slate. While we get some broad details of his role in the plot, we never get to see his personal life outside of one singular weird cutscene you get from eating the noblestalk mushroom and its basically just 'in case you needed any more confirmation that this guy is vile, heres a vivid description of him torturing his victims!'. We only ever get hints. We get *hints* that he had a thing with Gortash. We get *hints* that he actually cared about Orin even if she didn't reciprocate. There's the overall 'fucked up freaky dragonborn' vibe but there's no nuance outside of that. I wish there was at least something between the bhaalspawn siblings, I would love to recruit Orin :(

[@LilianOrchard]

That's just how Larian writers. They are pathologically averse to giving the main character (or Origin characters) any kind of significant personality because they come from that shitty school of game development where the player should be allowed to project as much as possible.

[@Jarakin]

21:21 THANK YOU!

[@dand1253]

See, I always remember Leliana for how she felt like the most well-developed companion, even as someone who has a great fondness for the game and its cast. The stinger with her at the end of DA2 felt very appropriate - after the initial shock wore off, it became obvious that yeah, no shit Leliana would use her skills and clout as a companion to the Hero of Ferelden to continue working to help people, and no shit she'd end up working with the Chantry in furtherance of that goal. Admittedly, I never did get around to playing DA3, so I'm very much going off of somewhat rose-tinted recollections of finishing the second game & imagining what might come next.

[@benedictvalorant6093]

What a beautiful video

[@damagedgoods2663]

I actually like wyll and his story in bg3. To tell you the truth, him Laezel and Shadowheart are my favorite. With Karlach being the most tear jerker for me.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

38:04 Damn, guess full extend of Ravagers hands will not used. /j

[@TheXyxy2]

Leliana from Dragon age always reminded me of Imoen.

[@herebejamz]

God... I love BG3, but you're right... RPG characters have gotten... Lesser. And when I start to think about it I'm also noticing a lot of it's just Capitalism. Good writing doesn't sell as well as sex and action. Getting people excited as quickly as possible is the goal. It's also probably why I should try uninstalling TikTok again. Brain go brrrrrr too much.

[@wJermell0]

8:30 I'll say that Jacob being a normal (and black) dude isn't helping him but there's also the fact that every suggestion he gives in ME2 is wrong and anyone that makes the mistake of romancing him gets cheated on and he's not sorry

[@LilianOrchard]

That not his fault, that's the writers' fault.

[@wJermell0]

@@LilianOrchard true, but when writers screw a character people blame the character

[@LilianOrchard]

@@wJermell0 Those people are idiots

[@AliaaImad]

I love the fact that you watched the princess and the pauper.

[@jeffreywarf]

38:58 what do you mean by "the good characters are mutually exclusive"? As in you can't recruit them without serious caveats? Because wyll and Karlach can absolutely be recruited together with no problem beyond a couple of dialog options

[@LilianOrchard]

It requires a dialogue check, which is possible to fail.

[@tylermclean7943]

I would actually argue that childish joy is the highest form of horrific perverted gore. The image of some1 having every good thing cut away from them after 1 tragedy after anouther leaving no reason to ever feel happy again and then deciding to do so anyway is a shocking form of just opinions. It's why children's voices are so creepy in horror. its not suppose to be there. People aren't supposed to be happy after bad stuff but we will anyway because that's what heros do.

[@romerite]

So rare to see fellow Kaidan enjoyers out in the wild, thank you for that 🥴 Great work as always!

[@somewhere367]

I always forget that Sonic Chronicles was a Bioware game.

[@ThePiachu]

A nice video. Played Baldur's Gate as a kid back when it first came out. One of the big distributions in Poland, a good deal of big names attached, first such major release as far as I know. It was handled by CD Project, definitely an important stepping stone for them. But despite that, Imoen's voice acttress wasn't that great, had a thick russian accent ;). Regardless, it was nice hearing an analysis on her. Made me appreciate her more since I haven't played those games in decades...

[@ImoenMARBON]

I wanna play Baldur's gate, so I watched the video to learn a little more about the characters but honesty, this is so weird heard my name every second :'). I start understand people who got popular name and hear it every single time when it not them we are calling

[@zacharymedio5021]

Honestly, whenever it came down to Kaden or Ashley I always picked Kaden. I think part of the reason is that I always played soldier in ME so I didn’t necessarily need another soldier in my squad (at least not in the first game) but I genuinely just liked Kaden more. His backstory had much more depth to it than Ashley’s in my opinion and he just seemed to have so much more personality. To be fair though I also liked that he DID talk about word politics a little bit. He mentions how it’s unfair but also kinda understandable of the counsel not to immediately help Shepard. He also isn’t as “pro human” as Ashley cause- well of course he’s not. His backstory is he was basically poisoned in the womb and then the government took him and tried to make him into a super soldier which left him with a debilitating condition. He knows humans are no better than the “aliens”.

[@leXie1337_chan]

Oh how I want a list of the mods you used in making this! Like, there's the obvious one, but then there's also the really clean, minimalist interface for BG1 you've got going on... and the better portrait for BG1 and stuff...

[@LilianOrchard]

Dragonspear UI++, and I put the portraits together myself using artwork I found online. You can have the portraits here drive.google.com/file/d/11pu7cPCgxVKmM072LRPcmXu49-GVN3kE/view?usp=sharing

[@ellikereelif]

Me, who has finished both games without having Imoen in her party (at least when the game wasn't forcing it), watching this video 🧍

[@evanchan8221]

I'm really glad that the og Baldur's Gates and their characters are still getting love! What song starts playing around 2:45?

[@shanebishop8704]

I'll see if I can baldur's gate for my birthday

[@petrusjnaude7279]

I sometimes think Dawn Star kind of fits into this 'Imoen trope' if you will, as well. Granted it's not quite the same, though there are some similarities. Great video btw. It's making me seriously consider doing another playthrough of BG2, if only to try those mods.

[@scribblingjoe]

Imoen was my best friend!

[@Paraster]

This was a really good video. I never cared to look into the Baldur's Gate 3 hype, but this has genuinely put me on the verge of trying out the original games (and also reminding me I need to play more than 10 minutes of KotOR).

[@partymantis3421]

As much as i like Baldurs gate 3 its honestly a bummer how the recruiting reasons are so oversimpified compared to the prior games, Glad you talked about this as its anoying how most of them are like "dude you got a mind maggot too? sweet, lets hang out!" Larian did do a great job ultimately but centering the core plot on the gith vs mindflayer conflict was a strange decision imo, Would be cool to see a "Lily does Bg3" video ( if nothing else just to show how Minsc is more than the memes)

[@I.Simmonds]

Huh interesting I recently restarted Pathfinder Kingmaker as a druid (defender of the true world). Which is a kingdom manager dungeon crawler. I am enjoying it's slower pace myself. Companion wise i am fond of Olivia, Regonagar, Kalukke and Kanerah. Reg and Kanerah are evil chaotic and lawful respectively but they aren't dickish, wontonly cruel and have good reasoning. Not to mention as a Magus (spellsword) and Kineticist (Bender) different from what im use to in fantasy games.

[@DoctrDoc]

First of all that GOSH DANG that mist effect at 3:00, I see you! Get away from me! (it was just very jarring the first time I saw it, playing SoD) 18:50 Dear god... recursive/compounding flandarization, the horror! 16:32 somewhat tied into your idea from 6:30 (which I'll get to in a minute) How many RPGs have characters that have relationships before they meet the protagonist! Specifically excluding characters that know each other, who "met" at the same time they met the protagonist (see examples below). Even in Baldur's Gate 2 this practice of making companion pairs seems to have fallen by the wayside. Probably to improve gameplay, because people hated how "hard" it was to separate them after they joined the party. 40:32 this is the biggest thing I struggle with when "playing imagination" with my friends and coworkers. Can you just make some guy please? Not the child of a god, or, the princess of a lost and fallen kingdom who was raised in the woods by talking animals? Can the most interesting part of your character be because of what we're currently doing and not part of their gosh darn ding dang LORE / Backstory? ... Please? 6:30 Off the top of my head I can think of two examples, although I posit that they've got caveats. First is Xenoblade Chronicles (the first one). Shulk and Rein have been friends since kids and ALSO friends with 2 other potential party members (Fiora and Dunban). Rein has the "ride or die" trait like what Imoen or Sam have. There are even a few explicit times where Shulk goes: "Imma go be an anime emo solo protagonist" And Rien's all: "The hell. you ain't!" Which I appreciate, but Rein also has a few archetypes holding him back, he's a block head, he's obtuse, primarily for comedy/slapstick, and kind of a himbo, its not one to one but he reminds me of your complaints targeting Minsc, and is HARDLY the emotional core of the story. The other game is Tales of Symphonia (only Tales game I've seen/played). An interesting "twist" on the Baldur's gate situation is that the protagonist Lloyd is NOT the chosen one, its his childhood girl who is also friend Collette who that happens to. (and Genis is also there I guess). Unfortunately as far as I remember, I was not impressed by or moved for any of the 3 starting party members. Imoen alone stands as both the narrative core, and emotional core of Baldur's Gate 2, and giving her the intelligence, and capacity to understand the stakes and scope of Gorian's Ward's Future, AND STILL RIDE OR DIE WITH THEM ANYWAY. Is an unmatched characteristic. (At least in the games I've played and remember playing)

[@DoctrDoc]

Addendum / Anecdote: When I first found your channel, one of the self-defined traits that was most important to me, was that I "liked" everything. I could find something in any genre or medium that I absolutely loved (or so I claimed). There was not a flavor I wouldn't taste. etc. Upon reflection this was a harsh over correction because the people around me were often dismissing things out of hand. (Ex: The way certain people treat rap or pop music, or basically anything else that young people/people my age/any girl, liked.) This ultimately amounted to a "that's nice" response to the rare NEW piece of media that entered my "diet", and squatting obliviously over a "lifetimes" collection of favorites. Sure I "liked" country music, or 9th century Chinese poetry, (insert random obscure art form here) but I'd rather listen to X or re-read Y instead. Gradually, by soaking in Lily's brain brine I was cured (heh heh, cured disease AND cured pickles) What I attributed to liking was really just a "it doesn't bother me to be around" sensation, or "it doesn't bother me". I've since developed both awareness of my own taste, and better and better granularity in how I distinguish: great, good, okay, bad, "just not for me" and the like. I lay the "blame" for that self improvement solely at your feet Lily. While I maintain that engaging with new things for the first time openly (with few expectations which is DIFFERENT from low expectations) IS an important part of being mature. It is equally important to have integrity with your own taste! Acknowledge the flaws you can see in things you like AND dislike; as well as what makes something one of your favorites vs minimally acceptable. As an added bonus I've also been better able to detect WHAT is wrong in a given piece of work. Unfortunately Lily's Brain Brine® doesn't appear to effect verbosity!

[@alsaiduq4363]

Idk but i have a feeling that you would like Eder from Pillars of eternity. At least in pillars 2 he's a bit like what you describe Imoen. This person that has no second intentions, he simply likes and respects the protagonist.

[@atiliopoolcartoonawesome]

Thank you 👍🏻🙏🏻

[@icedardee5338]

Feel like for me at least Pathfinder Kingmaker and Wrath of the Righteous landed this pretty well.

[@FatalFrameAlchemist]

Neat! I've never played any of the older Baldur's Gate games so hearing stuff I about a character I'm not familiar with is awesome. The fact she's described as someone friendly and loving is very sweet. Also Yay Kaidan! I don't know what it says about me that in Mass Effect, Kaidan was my go to romance (ignoring that gay romance are few and far between) and that in BG3 Wyll is also my romantic companion.

[@lupisvolk2420]

I really wish we had 5 characters for BG3, Wyll would be that 5th slot 9/10 times. That 1/10 being I chose to be a life cleric so I don't need Shadowheart for the heals.

[@ancientundergroundbiomech]

38:57 great vid but theres a mistake where you show karlach and wyll as being mutually exclusive companions. you can actually recruit both of them

[@shanebishop8704]

Went back to replay mass effect and I definitely respect kaiden more

[@MissZencefil]

where did you find these gorgeous portraits omg?!?!?

[@daninogil]

have you played jade empire? if you did is it any good?

[@MysticDiamonds5566]

Hey Lily. I've watched this video a bunch of times. You make interesting points that make me think. And from observation, it seems you don't have anything to say about Karlach. I concluded myself that “lily probably or most likely doesn't find her worth talking about.” and it is what it is, I'm definitely curious though.

[@LilianOrchard]

Karlach is fine, but like every Baldur's Gate 3 character she's built from prefab stock tropes

[@MysticDiamonds5566]

@@LilianOrchard Prefabricated Stock Tropes? Sounds about right.