The Historical Revisionism of "Modern Standards"

[@thepoetjean]

Some Supplementary Materials that Discuss this issue (TW: For discussions of slavery, historical antiblackness in the US & other heavy concepts so be warned): VIDEOS - The Wind Can GTFO [A Gone With the Wind Breakdown] by Princess Weekes: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fWOXo5qoqaeUZpY - The Watermelon Women - Who Are We Forgetting? by KyleKallgrenBHH: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fHfHpIdrp9R3ars BOOKS Playing in the Dark by Toni Morrison ( I swear, I SWEAR -- IT'S SHORT AND DENSE AND WORTH IT!)

[@thepoetjean]

Related: Many Black families have had an...ambivalent relationship to GONE W/ THE WIND -- for good reason! On the one hand, the film had the actress Hattie McDaniel (who played the supporting role of the white MC's enslaved Black woman sidekick) as the first-ever Black woman to ever win an Oscar. On the other hand, it's just another example of how a lot of Black actors had to essentially play caricatures & bit parts to just survive in Hollywood back in the day, and while the Oscar might have bolstered anyone else's career, it just made McDaniel's career more difficult due to the scrutiny placed on her. It's a mess (understatement) but it should be discussed! It was wrong then and it's still wrong now, we gotta actively learn and do better!

[@Twisttheawesome]

A good rebuttal to this argument is that even Taming of the Shrew was criticised UPON RELEASE for being misogynistic, despite the word not even existing yet. A proto-feminist Parody play called "The Shrew Untamed" was released a few years later, which (and I might be wrong about this part) I believe Shakespeare even saw and commended as a valid criticism of his work.

[@FunnyAnimatoFilms]

It's also, like, Shakespeare's second play. It's fully in continuity with the rest of his cannon if you read it as the bad tweet he got canceled for and spent the rest of his career rectifying and growing out of. People change.

[@asterling4]

@@FunnyAnimatoFilms this is such a funny comparison I love it

[@tfan2222]

@@WhitneyDahlin What is your point with this absolute WALL of text? The oc specifically states that the work was criticized for the same reasons now when it was released. Also, education has exactly nothing to do with morality.

[@jaspervanheycop9722]

There were Greek and Roman writers calling out the Spartans for being babytorturing idiots who weren't actually the supersoldiers they were cracked up to be. And the Old Testament is about half about how Babylonians and Egyptians mistreated and enslaved minorities. No matter how long ago an evil deed was, there's always a critique of it, usually several.

[@hinata1ize]

You know what. I'm so glad I found your channel. Just finished the part about Gone with the Wind, and I just feel so seen. I get so sick of people ignoring us black people or romanticizing the abuse to my people. And they care more about uplifting our oppressors than even acknowledging our oppression. Like, when Lizzo played that flute, people were complaining about how James Madison would feel about it. And when people pointed out that he was a slaver and his opinions didn't matter, they go, "Well every rich person enslaved people back then." As if that makes it okay or as if there weren't abolitionists AT THAT TIME. It makes me so sick.

[@professordetective807]

I always took "fair for its day" as more "progressive for its day", where an older work TRIED to be better but stumbled in the attempt, especially through modern hindsight (like Princess Knight or Stop Hibari, for relevant examples). But NOPE, it's just another example of anti-critical, culture-calcifying, thought-termination from xenophobic regressives whose idea of paradise looks like flipping Pleasantville but with Facebook. GORGONS aren't even this scared of looking in the mirror! An enlightening and entertaining video as always, Lily. Thanks.

[@Estarile]

@@Hey-Its-Dingo that's not actually true about the whole blood is thicker than water. It's a very common misconception and nobody knows where it started

[@Estarile]

My definition was always similar. Something where our language and terminology might have evolved, but the sentiments where accurate. My go to is always Huckleberry Finn constantly using the N-word, but one major theme of the book being slavery is wrong.

[@pkmnherofan22]

My refutation of “it was a different time” is always ALWAYS my great great grandmother inviting a black family into her home and refusing to let them eat at a separate table because that’s not how you treat guests. People always know they’re wrong they just don’t give a shit I have friends who are SU fans that openly acknowledge the deep seated writing flaws and are critical of them and I have others who I’m fairly certain if interrogated would say that they don’t actually care about the drama blogs they just justify not having to listen to your criticism of their comfort show. It’s convenient because it means that anyone who agrees is just misinformed by bad actors

[@paloma4444]

"People always know they’re wrong they just don’t give a shit" sure bud, that's how the world works. You've clearly never studied history in your life.

[@iqbalindaryono8984]

But wouldn't that be the product of an entire lifetime worth of indoctrination? How can a human being even consider another human being is less than a human when we've known for a fact that children don't look at skin color. It's like people of the future criticizing the people of today, who thinks that we do not need to add sounds to electric vehicles, as ablists. As it assumes that everyone has the same capacity of sight and wouldn't heavily rely on their hearing to sense potential dangers.

[@jimkillerx]

It was a different time though

[@pkmnherofan22]

@@jimkillerx my great great grandmother inviting a black family into her home and refusing to let them eat at a separate table because that’s not how you treat guests.

[@Rose-cq3bf]

@@jimkillerxmorality is timeless

[@LilianOrchard]

The video by Noralities that I end up showing is not really part of the problem. The video goes into a lot of the things I talk about here, just longer and focused more on anime. But the visual aid of someone throwing up a hand going "How do we deal?!" was extremely poignant and useful. Go watch the video itself, it's really good if you can stomach all the weeb shit. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rIuboIuFgZaHnM0

[@jamiewebber7485]

Why do you always call people who like slightly more anime than you “weebs”, regardless of their behavior or how critically it is that they look at anime? If you enjoyed Noralities’s video, just SAY that, instead of putting in a dozen weird qualifiers and asterisks at the end because you’re afraid of what other people might think of you if you just unironically enjoyed something for once. Its honestly one of your habits that I like the least when watching your videos.

[@LilianOrchard]

Weeb

[@shadowknight3035]

@@jamiewebber7485 I'm guessing your a weeb who hates being criticized.

[@LilianOrchard]

@Zachery Varela Lol weeb

[@OracleSpeaking8]

"It wAs a dIfFeRenT tImE" - yeah it was a *shitty* time with *shitty* things going on that at least some of us don't want to do or see anymore. Also super happy to hear your throat is feeling better Lily!

[@kenndreafoltz8632]

Meaningful systemic change scares these people not because it's difficult, but because it's easy and it brings attention to their inaction

[@bleakautomaton4808]

I could go on about how that Southern romance movie was nostalgic for my own mom, but you know what needs to be heard - when she better understood the worst of it in better detail than she had as a preteen (which was nothing) she stopped praising it as some classic. Go figure. People can change their minds when given more information to understand something.

[@writingdork3951]

If someone tries to defend a piece of problematic media with “it was a product of its time,” you can assume that had they lived in that time, they would not care about those issues, and probably don’t today

[@XainRussell]

People who want to cover up all the problematic media of the past with “it was a different time” remind me of the ghoulish behavior of some politicians and educators who want to pave over the Civil War and pretend it wasn’t about slavery. They’re desperate to make it seem like these problems were never problems, or try to make it seem like we’re better now instead of going through the same bullshit over and over.

[@elizabeths.3307]

This was...a very enlightening comment to read.

[@professordetective807]

"It was about economics and state's rights." Yeah, state's rights to have an economy built on and maintained with slave labor.

[@paytonyoder1260]

I mean, if we just pretend the 10th amendment doesn’t exist and pave over the civil war and pretend it was about slavery than that works. The 10th amendment and the federal government’s flagrant violations of the constitution surely have 0% influence over any of that. But we can just sweep the act of authoritarianism under the rug because it aligns with present day morals. It’s not like the US forces people into preforming labor and gives them a tiny exchange so they can call it something besides slave labor. I’m sure that you’re also fine with situations like media with any representation of anything that isn’t accepted in current time being eliminated or changed in the future because it’s considered problematic. And even if the times were different alien overlords could discard human media they don’t agree with and have your full support.

[@nickkorkodylas5005]

"these problems were never problems" They weren't, and neither they are today, we just have more entitled weaklings because their betters voluntarily empowered them.

[@nickkorkodylas5005]

@@professordetective807 This but unironically.

[@LiftedStarfish]

I feel like a fucking idiot. I literally took me until today to realize that it's okay to like problematic things as long as you remain critical of it's problematic elements.

[@taylorhunt4104]

“It was a product of its time” is one of the phrases I despise the most. It tells me three things about that person. 1) they don’t want to think about these things in a critical manor. 2) they really don’t want to potentially acknowledge the fact that they like something problematic. 3) they aren’t open to new viewpoints or perspectives. This type of dismissive attitude is so frustrating!

[@Nothingtotheleft]

(I ranted a lot longer then I thought I would. TLDR Conservatives make things they find problematic in media today seem like the end of the world through lies and meanwhile people who call out the problematic things in older media apparently don’t matter even though conservatives are still gonna use that media for examples of their own narratives. That, and Lily makes great videos.) Conservatives, for how much they want to avoid talking about things that make them problematic, really do artificially inflate the things they see as problematic. Strange World came out recently and on opening day articles from conservative news outlets began talking about how because one of the main characters is gay and kisses another boy. But in the movie, the character he kisses is barely on screen. They have a few minutes flirting and being cute around the 1st quarter of the movie where he gives a card (that gives the main character a sense of bravery later on just looking at it,) and then he shows up at the epilogue being supportive of a societal revamp. That’s it. Besides that, it is just him being mentioned by that main character’s parents because they want to know more about him, and or that MC asking for relationship advice. They don’t even kiss like half the articles said they did. Hell, they called that a subplot. They called a basic character relationship a subplot. Measures I assure you that Conservative fuckwads would have not taken to try and make it more of a “Big Deal” if they were straight. It is baffling how much these idiots will take something really cute and nice and fucking shit on it so they can label it for their “gay agenda” bullshit. Meanwhile, they will not even take the time and effort to defend movies that are filled to the brim with racism, homophobia, transphobia, and misogyny that are apparently fine to them by waving it away with “Fair for it’s time.” Spineless bastards. They can try and point out (and lie about) everything today that doesn’t fit their standards (which apparently they think matters for whatever stupid reason) but if anyone points out something terrible from ages ago then it’s whatever because it was back from the past. “But don’t worry, just because it was only fair for it’s day, doesn’t mean we won’t bring it up as a great demonstration of how our ideals should be carried out.” It’s like like a finger trap, except they’re the only ones who can pull out themselves out of it, leaving you fucked with a lanky piece of shit on your hand. They shut criticism down and yet get to use all the “perfectly timeless” examples they want for their own criticism. Fuckin abominable. I wouldn’t rant about this unless it was stuff I heard and saw everyday in my life. Thank you so much for making these videos Lily. Keeps me sane down here in Southern Georgia.

[@remytherevolutionairy769]

"It was from a different time" shouldn't be an excuse, it should be a fucking warning.

[@nickkorkodylas5005]

A warning of good times!

[@red9485]

she called her "hermosa" i need to go cry for a day or two, oh my god

[@apnosaurus]

The "it was a different time" excuse is used just as much as the "just let people enjoy things" excuse. People (especially privileged and white) just don't want to acknowledge anything racist, antisemitic, transphobic, etc in any form of media they consume. They want an excuse so they don't have to think critically about how what they like hurts people because it doesn't affect them.

[@nickkorkodylas5005]

Not only I acknowledge those elements but also applaud them!

[@willowvin6627]

Ill add a small historical lesson from a class I am taking on African American History: before the states Chattel Slavery was pretty frowned upon. African People were viewed as humans and there were laws put in place regulating slavery or “indentured servitude” at the time. It was still horrifically wrong obviously, but heres the thing, white folk kept undoing those laws of what allows slaves to be freed /how you should treat them. Basically, over time abusing slaves stopped being illegal and became the norm because white people wanted the right to abuse their slaves for more money. So yeah, no it wasn’t a “product of ignorance” it is and always was an act of selfish, malicious, greed and pride. Thanks for coming to my ted talk. Signed - a ace kid of black + white mixed race.

[@pidgey9020]

This video has put into words things I’ve always thought but never known how to articulate. As a poc this video is going to be directed to certain people when I tell them why I don’t feel comfortable engaging with particular media of the past because it really wasn’t a different time (also even if it was it sure isn’t acceptable now please stop shoving your garbage media in my face just because you don’t want to examine yourself.) Lily, thank you. I don’t often comment because I am not great with words but honestly this one really meant a lot to me :,)

[@2-dsynctium773]

Thank you for this video Lily! This video actually unlocked a sweet memory of mine. I remember back in middle school when my history teacher had shown us the movie gone with the wind and had given us vanilla ice cream to enjoy. After the movie had finished, the next day she used the movie as a basis to discuss racial disparity and how media coverage of it created a romaticized lense of the gross black stereotyping the movie portrayed. It wasn't even a part of our curriculum, but I remembered how everyone in the class was invested in what she taught us. She was unfortunately fired soon after, i wasn't entirely sure why, but it happened soon after she had taped a pride flag on the class wall.

[@niyaodom1944]

Yeesh, that shows the priorities of a school! Your teacher sounded like a lovely educator, being kind to kids and getting them to think critically. I do hope that she found a better location and continued to do good things for other students.

[@lollyhail6149]

Yeah my mum really loves terminating any discussion we have about problematic media with "but it was a different time?!??!" like its some major revelation. Thank you for all your hard work, and I hope you have a great day :D

[@Deepspace472]

I remember when my school went into an uproar over cutting to kill a mockingbird over another book that centered around racial discrimination and my English teacher at the time told the class that to kill a mockingbird does not do the issues presented in it justice and that everyone and their grandma read it which caused the book to become dated. I think that’s also a good example of media that needs to be re-examined because it shouldn’t be held up on a pedestal like it is today.

[@akinmytua4680]

What book did they replace it with?

[@Deepspace472]

@@akinmytua4680 I do not know because it was required reading for my grade and then they scraped it following year. I do know the other highschool in my district had kite runner as summer reading but I haven’t read kite runner but it caused a shit storm because conservative parents got angry that their kids were reading a book about Afghan people’s and their struggles

[@elizabeths.3307]

It always confused me when I was a teenager because people always spoke of TKMB as 'the racism book'. When you actually read it, although it does glance at some of the racism of the time, it's realistically only a small part of the book that's mostly relegated to Tom's trial. 95% of the book is about other things. Makes perfect sense to cut it as 'the racism book'. (Even Harper Lee seems to think this because in 'Go Set a Watchmen' she tries to be more critical of the racism of the time and points out things like Scout's ignorance and how the black people in their community definitely didn't think of her as a friend just because Calpurnia raised her, kind of the opposite in fact.) We also watched 'The Help' when we were studying TKMB and, well, looking back, it's very telling that the 'racism' section of our English class was entirely focused on the perspective of white women. I don't think I learned anything useful about race and racism until after I left high school.

[@Deepspace472]

@@elizabeths.3307 I’m glad that Harper Lee reexamined her work later on and I wish Go Set a Watchman was more recognized because I’ve only heard of it. We did discuss in English Class that Harper Lee just wanted to tell a story along the lines of her childhood and when To Kill a Mockingbird became famous she quit doing interviews because she didn’t want her book to become about racial prejudice. TKMB is one of those works where the work itself is hyped up so much that when you actually read it it’s not that thoughtful or exciting

[@asterling4]

@@Deepspace472 honestly lots of "classics" are like that. in the end these are just the pop books of a few decades ago. they're considered important to the literary canon because old people were the ones who decided what's important to the literary canon, and this was all the rage when they were a teenager-and then future generations were like "oh, well, of course this is a classic, it's always been considered a classic." a little like if english classes in 2092 analyzed justin bieber's "yummy" as a "classic" because a bunch of old folks liked the song as kids. bit of a simplification for the sake of being a youtube comment, so please do more research and/or fact check what's written here before integrating it into your knowledge base, of course.

[@crayonmanccc3408]

If i recall correctly, I think this is called 'learning from history so as to not repeat it'.

[@shadowknight3035]

Alot of people don't want to do that though, they rather make excuse not to learn and silence people of color because they hate criticism.

[@Jayday12345678910]

Love this video, especially since weebs have gone full revisionist creeps where they state that LGBT content has been fetish content or gag fodder even when the creators have stated otherwise.

[@saragoodman1020]

I've noticed that. When an anime even has hints of being gay or has explicit gay relationships in it, most weebs will turn up their noses at it because "Ew, that's gay", and just pretend that the whole anime is just fetishized yaoi made for straight women. A lot of gay anime has that problem, but that doesn't mean all boys love is like that. But unfortunately, straight men act as if they're all the same and don't give good gay anime a chance while trying to pretend they aren't just homophobic. Also heres my interpretation of these two terms for people who don't understand what they mean: Yaoi: fetishized gay anime porn written by and for straight women. BL or boys love: an anime or manga that features a male gay relationship at the forefront of the story without focusing too heavily or at all on the sexual side of the relationship. Usually better written and can be enjoyed by anyone who isn't a homophobe

[@nickkorkodylas5005]

@@saragoodman1020 _" A lot of gay anime has that problem"_ That sounds like the opposite of a problem.

[@eauxkei702]

As I black person who watched Gone with the Wind as a child, I automatically knew how racist it was. My parents knew it was racist, and so did my grandparents back when it first came out (and they were born and raised in the Jim Crow South, so obviously that was fun for them). It's always odd to see people defend it. Thank you for making the point that media should be viewed critically, regardless of when it was made. I'm also glad you called out Rocky Horror because man, that movie is beloved. I've always hated that "it was a different time" bs. And yes, that applies to some of y'alls bigoted grandparents that y'all let throw around slurs at the dinner table, too. I see you...

[@jimkillerx]

Well, it was a different time so what exactly is the big deal?

[@theprincipal2994]

People who deny criticism, are usually the ones who are part of the problem.

[@Eclipsed_Embers]

good to hear that you're seemingly better my view here is that yes, yes, different time blah blah blah but we have those new modern standards for a reason, no matter when something was made or how times have changed it should always be filtered through our modern standards when making a modern judgement of it. if the standards you're holding it to are outdated then so is your judgement of the work.

[@affsteak3530]

My go-to rebuttal for racist works being a "product of their time" is King Solomon's Mines. KSM is a novel with an African protagonist and a British explorer expressing sympathy when a fellow Brit falls in love with an African woman. Alan Quatermain (a man in his fifties) was horrified by the romance because he could see no path to happiness for the couple. Nowhere would accept them. This groundbreaking novel was published in TYOL 1885. H.P. Lovecraft wouldn't start publishing his racist hysteria for another TWENTY YEARS after this novel's publication.

[@jizolord69]

This is an excellent video! So many people fail to critically engage with the content they enjoyed growing up because it might force them to introspect about negative attitudes and norms that were formative to their childhoods. Also the whole “it was a different time” excuse is so lackluster because it doesn’t actually explore what is wrong with the media and how we can learn from it, so I entirely agree! Also I liked the Lil Nas X bit you came up with lol.

[@matthewmcafee2957]

Part of me want to throw the "it was a different time" argument back at people by saying "Okay, then there should be no issue showing 'triumph of the will'(the famous Nazi propaganda film)." but the other part of me knows how much more I'll die inside when it turns out people do say there is no issue. Great video, and glad you're feeling better, or at least medicated enough to convince yourself you are.

[@i_can_draw_frogs3503]

I absolutely hate when people say it was from I different time cuz it just shuts up all conversation about it, and shows the people doesn’t care to actually talk critically about it.

[@feloniousglitch]

"Hey that's not a different time, that's TODAY!" Is now printed and put on my wall

[@lunar0129]

I really think that you're right, I can't believe people are so self centered as to misrepresent others for their own self image without even realizing it.

[@jaspervanheycop9722]

Ugh this is such a problem within history, whenever we discuss some evil deeds from the past, there's always someone going "judge them by the standards of their time" when almost every evil person or culture had people critisising it in "it's time". Columbus was called out for being a maniacal fuckwit in his own time. And there's an entire genre of Greek and Roman writers calling the Spartans a bunch of idiots who never amounted to anything, like they were. The question isn't about whether you are judging evil cretins by the standards of their time, but which of the standards from that time you choose to arbitraily apply.

[@purplepurple9324]

its a product of its time but that's not a defense, its a nail in the coffin, a show of what not to do

[@kayabaj]

Could you make a video about The Rocky Horror Picture Show? I had no idea the author was transphobic, I always thought it was supposed to be a parody of what cis-het people think a drag show is. EDIT: Not to forget, a great video as always. Just shows the value of learning about Lolita, nothing will make you learn critical appreciation of media faster than that book, written so well yet so ungodly uncomfortable to read.

[@shadowknight3035]

Not only did the video basically covered it already, Lily doesn't like people asking her to make videos about x topic.

[@kayabaj]

@@shadowknight3035 Oh I didn't know, my bad, sorry to Lily then. Rewatched the video and yeah I get the general idea but parts still elude me. Gotta rewatch the movie too I guess, I cannot think of a half-sane connection between turning people to stone and trans people.

[@ZodiacEntertainment2]

If you watch it yourself I'm sure you'll pick up on exactly why Lily doesn't like it.

[@carlcarlington7317]

“This is fine because it was a different time” then what of tomorrow? If you woke up tomorrow to world in which everyone else was a terrible person would that give you the ethical green light to be equally terrible? Are we to ignore the issues of today because in our time they’re considered “normal” if one applied this ethical standard equally beyond just defending a piece of media you like then you find yourself in a position where you can’t really call out any systemic issues ever because by definition they are “normal” in our modern times.

[@PommegranateTime]

A piece of it too is that when it comes to american slavery stories its not just POC who's opinion matter, it's only Black opnions that matter, ADOS to be specific. Just like cis LGBTQIA folks dont get opinions on trans specific issues

[@ShaGojyoKun]

I don't think I've ever used "It was a different time." Or didn't acknowledge something was problematic. With things like gone with the wind if you only take in the publication / movie release dates you don't take into account that the story itself is set even further back in history. Not having an issue like slavery mentioned in a book set in the civil war era at all when that was a very real, very horrible, thing and a major point for the war. Would make it a very poor historical romantic fiction. Having slavery glamorized in it however, 1000% not okay. Sweeping the story under the rug and abolishing it also keeps people from ever seeing it and how poorly it's aged or ever learning how to do better. Especially considering that wasn't the only thing wrong with that story.

[@petersmythe6462]

This reminds me of virtually every discussion of the US founders and the fact that they were pretty much to a man connected to the institution of slavery, with most of them owning many slaves themselves and clearly going out of their way to abuse, control, and complain about their slaves even above and beyond what is entailed by simply owning slaves, and that owning slaves was not somehow totally disconnected from their ideology but deeply and thoroughly connected with it in the majority of cases.

[@PiNeAPPLeSaMa]

Holy shite, I think I've fallen in love with your channel in the course of a month. Thank you for pushing me to my epiphany on accepting opinions on topics that effect/affect the people around me. I will never say "those were the times. . ." again

[@MommaDusk]

I've never seen Gone with the Wind, and now I'm pissed that it's seen as this great movie.

[@ShadowSkyX]

How about watching it and judging for yourself instead relying on heresay?

[@fusselmietz5929]

I don't know if I haven't noticed before, but I think the editing and the way you integrate humor and the way you use your voice acting and sound effects (it's hard to describe, but I hope you know what I mean) has improved and it seems like you had more fun making your newer videos. Not like you videos were bad before, but I just wanted to tell you that I appreciate it.

[@manolito.7zip]

Honestly it's so fucked how unwilling people are to be critical towards the things they love and it's specially fucked because it's rooted in the fear of being wrong and having to grow from it. Thank you for calling everyone out on this it's needed and very helpful for people who are starting to realize these things

[@Starwarsdude8221991]

Technically slavery didn’t end until the 1940’s wince

[@LilianOrchard]

*Googles* Well that's depressing. That's for that horrible information, I appreciate it.

[@piens51]

@@LilianOrchard Well slavery hasn't ended even today. You just have to look under the lables in USA and some places out of developed nations dont even pretend its not slavery.

[@Tairafan]

I'm noticing a theme. This is only the second video I've seen from you, and you've managed to explain what you don't like about something that a lot of people agree about. I'm autistic. You gotta explain these things to me, but if I actually ask, several people will assume I'm only asking rhetorically to say "you're wrong" in the most indirect and privileged/predgedus way possible. I'm afraid to ask why personally say X remark is systemically harmful, so I'm continually causing damage without realizing it. Thank you for actually talking about it

[@notcharmander9606]

It’s funny mentioning Rocky Horror because it was not only criticized to heck back then by trans people it wasn’t really successful to begin with. It was a flop in its original 1975 Broadway run, only performing 45 times before being canned. Even its revival only lasted 2 years. It doesn’t seem to ever succeed other than being a movie with a “cult status” that should just be forgotten.

[@timmd8766]

Thank you for your thoughts. I've been thinking myself that it has seemed weird saying that we have a certain set of "modern standards" today seeing as opinions today are so diverse and, without a doubt, they were in the past as well.

[@nataliestafford1535]

We can and should be critical of the things we like. For example, Newsies (specifically the stage adaptation). Do I love the show? Yes. Can I talk about the sexist portrayal of Katherine masquerading as feminism and why the show would have been 50 times better if it was gay until I'm blue in the face? Yes, and plenty of people have done that already. The sexism doesn't take away from the fact that it's still a beautiful story about found family and the necessity of labor unions. But it's there, and it should be talked about. Because not talking about the problematic aspects of media sure as hell doesn't make them go away. Remind me, what's that thing they say about history repeating itself?

[@SuzuriHeinze]

I was waiting for this one, Lily! One of my favorites you've made! I got into a fight with a relative over the movie "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels", which has an interesting premise about con men trying to out con each other, but it includes a painful extended scene where they make fun of the developmentally disabled. It made me feel incredibly uncomfortable, and I said as much when asked about the movie. The blatant ableism. I'M AUTISTIC!! And they wouldn't hear me out over how much it hurt me to see that. "It was a different time back then". They just want me to shut up. It felt like they wanted ALL of the developmentally disabled to shut up.

[@lbean9828]

My old high school history teacher said something along those lines. "We shouldn't judge people of the past based on today's standards" and the example he used was "someday in the future it may be illegal to eat animals, and people will look back and think we were monsters for doing so". But that always sounded off to me. First of all, are you afraid of getting your feelings hurt by people you'll never know? Second, I understand we're learning about the past, we can't change it, but isn't the point of learning history to be critical of it so we can learn from it? I'm starting to feel rather stupid that I didn't realize this chill, old, white dude maybe wasn't as chill as I thought. I'm glad I wasn't in his class for very long.

[@botluckproductions]

I never thought of it like that. We always say that media is unchanging, a time capsule of the era. That society itself changes. You bring up a different approach to this idea.

[@jaredtheastralartist2510]

Moral of the story: Don’t afraid to be critical and reflect

[@yinyarnsfatfuckingnuts]

(TW: talk of rape and rape apologism) Even if it wasn’t a huge part of the video I honestly cannot thank you enough for bringing up _those_ scenes in Rocky Horror for what they are- I rarely if ever see them examined critically. I’ve seen folks argue on doesthedogdie (which is literally meant to _warn_ people about rape scenes and other triggering content) that Frank doesn’t actually rape anyone because “they both consent eventually”. Eventually. Fucking ghoulish shit.

[@Captain.Mystic]

Ive always took "a fragment of its time" as a way of trying to contextualize the idea so that it COULD be looked into critically. The whole "understanding nihilism to be able to think past and grow above it" idea. as well as certain youtubers putting into context why a media worked for people in the eyes of an author(think how lovecraft basically weaponized his fear of the unknown). Of course i understand that its also a very misused phrase to dismiss criticism. I myself have a hard time thinking critically about media i watch without stumbling on something because usually i just lack the vocabulary to see why or some part of logic doesnt add up when i make my long ass comments. Applicability is a nice word, im unsure how far you can stretch meaning before it officially becomes a reach just to have some sort of pretentious ego boosting, but in cases where someone is actively displaying common misconceptions or stereotypes you never really had to look far in the first place, so its a nice thing to keep in mind.

[@cortomaltese5206]

I feel like the "it was a different time" only works when it comes to globalism, where white people never even considered that others outside their white country would see their things and had no idea it could offend them(many european comics and movies come to mind). And even then it doesnt work in art from multirratial countries like the US. Another thing worth noting is that even Birth of a Nation was criticized at the time, and heavily so. Grifith even made a movie about Intolerance in an attempt to get clean. But even then, he struggled to keep working in the movie business and was never able to make a high budget movie ever again.

[@LightSpectris]

Thanks so much for this Lily, I always come back to this video when I need to be critical about a show/video game I consume

[@c00mgoblin]

I didn’t watch She-Ra but I watched the whole compilation of Catra and Adora and I was like: “… Why do people like this? Like… Okay cool Catra is an insufferable bitch the whole time whoopty doo.” I’m so glad I found your channel…

[@Armaggedon185]

You have a talent for articulating thoughts that I struggle to. Thanks for making these videos, I always learn how to better communicate from them.

[@pikaace]

This whole thing made me think of the film 1915 Birth of a Nation, which I would describe as basically, petty Civil War fanfiction about the South winning and the Klan being good guys and with people of color being demonized to the HIGHEST degree. It's still kinda talked about in museums and film history classes ONLY because it was one of the first films to use grand shots like you would see in war films or battle scenes today. But like my old film history teacher said, this movie is SO BLATANTLY RACIST, it's impossible to discuss ANYTHING else about it. 'Cause what more can you say about it? It's a racist film, made by racists, FOR racists. This movie caused SO much damage upon release, including a Klan resurgence and even MORE violence against people of color. I imagine it doesn't have the Gone with the Wind debate treatment because it would be really easy to reveal yourself as a white supremacist if you said anything REMOTELY positive about it. It was made at a different time? Yeah, and I bet you if you gave southern white supremacists today a movie budget they'd make the exact same movie

[@Not_Vakama_303]

Dear god, I didn’t know all this. ive had this weird collector anniversary box for the film on my family bookshelf do fucking forever cause my mothers grandma loved it.

[@siffy5340]

Discussing a work uncritically in that way reminds me of political fence sitting. Enjoy things mindlessly as you please but if you bud into a critical discussion with you thought terminating phrases like “I thought it was fine” or “it didn’t bother me” or claims that criticism isn’t prompted because a work is old or made someone from oppressed group only serves to keep the status quo from changing. In the end that’ll only really be aprecheated by regressive people.

[@tvftw1]

You can practically hear the "Fuck it, it's my video, I don't have to *choose* a single Lumity clip"

[@emileelewis4667]

My dad grew up around the time when Rocky Horror came out, and so I asked him about the movie and what people thought about it. And why is it iconic? To put it as frankly as he did, Everyone hated it. It was slow as shit, no story to be found, boring as all hell movie. What makes it "iconic" was the multiple big long pauses in the movie because with them people started to shout out their own jokes at the movie THOSE are what got the movie popular. That's why my dad says there's no point to watching the movie now, because once it was stopped from playing in theaters. The audience and their good jokes were gone, and you're once again just left with a shit movie.

[@drustanastrophel9538]

You’re one of the few people I’ve seen mention Hibari that also mentioned the racism in it. I attempted to watch it because I liked Hibari herself having a no fucks given attitude towards living as a woman but the racist caricatures ultimately drove me away from it. ETA: I’m sure others have also mentioned it and I just haven’t seen their work

[@LilianOrchard]

I looked around KZbin, I didn't find anyone talking about Princess Knight OR Stop Hibari

[@aidanodell157]

I think about this kind of thing with how we talk about the lead up to the Iraq War following 9/11 and how my teachers told me in school over a decade later ‘everyone’ wanted to go and that we didn’t know they were lying.

[@malachiphillips3410]

Lily is feeling better? Good to hear. As usual, I learned something. I'm happy about that.

[@flaminglemon367]

God every time I see your videos I learn something new, Thanks Lily

[@noodles2459]

Thank you for being mean I'm tired of trans women not being angry about shit.

[@kidpixel4818]

03:21 Took me a hot minute to figure what the heck Heathers could’ve done to get shown along side RHPS (I was tired the first time I watched this don’t make fun of me) but then I remembered, ‘oh yeah, taking the real world issue of suicide and having the main characters use it to cover up their murders’, which is a thing real life killers actually do sometimes. Plus, one of the characters actually trying to commit suicide and people brushing it off as her trying to get attention.(which I think is also a thing that happens)

[@4dragons632]

I had a big argument with my family about this like 5 years ago. I put forwards the idea that we should look back on previous generations and condemn them harshly, the same way that future generations ought to condemn our generation for our climate inaction and continued eating of meat, among other things. It's nice to see someone who had thoughts running along a similar line.

[@fumi3984]

i dunno if its cuz your voice is recovering or the topic of the video or even the editing? whatever it is i found this video to be particularly engaging and thought provoking! im really happy you're feeling better!

[@freestrings5207]

I was sitting here getting ready to argue with the screen like I always do when I give the occasional video of yours a watch, but for the first time I didn't even disagree once. It seems I've finally reached level 99 woke. From gamer gate 12 year old dipshit to here, fate is truly a strange beast

[@unknown_limes]

Glad to hear you're feeling a bit better, Lily! Like, not to be parasocial, but last video was genuinely worrying from how bad your voice was. As to the point of the video, I agree completely. I truly have to wonder how some people get along in life when they absolutely refuse to bring a critical eye to media. Silence of the Lambs is a really good example in my head, as it's got a really good perspective on workplace misogyny, but the main antagonist is the definition of transmisogyny. This is not okay and I cannot wait for the day that SotL is no longer taken as an untouchable masterpiece bc of one character that gets like fifteen minutes of screen time.

[@thegospelaccordingtoeljefe5520]

I have been saying this for years whenever I get into a argument with someone about old racist disney cartoons. Their argument boils down to, "we never thought about it like that when we were kids." Okay, but now you're an adult, and you refuse to be critical of something you enjoyed when you were younger. God, people are dumb.

[@asterling4]

there is actually a pretty substantial decrease in empathy among kids and young people with each year-i.e. 12yo kids born in 2010 are far less sensitive toward horrific tragedies/violence than 12yo kids born in 2000, who were in turn less sensitive than 12yos born in the 80s. it's a desensitization born from necessity. with the state of news & social media what it is (run by massive corporations who only care about profit, prioritizing "engagement" above all else) the things that children are exposed to at young ages become worse and worse. coverage of unbearable traumas and tragedies takes over news feeds and instagram timelines and playground gossip, to the point that apathy becomes the only way for a 12yo to go about daily life without a breakdown. and yeah, that's uh. a big problem.

[@LilianOrchard]

This only really applies to children who live online

[@asterling4]

@@LilianOrchard I think it definitely affects kids who spend unhealthy amounts of time online the most, but social media is so prevalent in kids' lives that they're going to see this stuff everywhere and hear about it constantly regardless. Most kids DO spend a lot of time online (it's not like we have many third spaces anymore, so spending time outdoors isn't as possible for today's kids) and those who don't still talk to their friends and listen to adults talking, so tragedy and violence is still going to find enough of a place in their daily life that some desensitization has to happen. I work with a pretty wide range of kids and honestly it's rare I meet one who doesn't spend a lot of their downtime scrolling TikTok. Even most poor kids have smartphones nowadays, if not the nicest models, and I've never met a middle schooler who can't tell you the password to their school's wifi. Maybe this is just "old man yells at cloud" of me? Which would be embarrassing because I'm 20. But I feel like I see a lot more compassion fatigue in little kids than I should, and I don't see any other culprit for it. Thoughts? (For extra clarity just in case, this isn't a "social media is evil" take, it's a "corporate overlords who run social media profit off of hate and suffering" take.)

[@baileyminor9067]

You have a really good listenable voice I don't necessarily agree with the some of what you say but the video did put out some really convincing arguments that made me rethink about how I viewed media :)

[@Mythic_Fire]

Yeah this is 100% one of those things that people just keep saying over and over and you kind of believe in it and repeat these claims too unquestionably because yeah it seems to make sense on the surface, but the more you look into it... the more the claim falls apart. All the historical revisionism does is, like you said, silences the opinions of marginalized people who were hurt by this kind of stuff, and honestly, I just don't care for "modern" vs. "past" moral standards or whatever. Regardless, we do know 100% (or at least should know...) that racism, sexism, etc. is wrong, and that what happened in the past is wrong. So it is good to examine the wrong things and learn from it because the fact of the matter is while sure, things have gotten better in some ways, in some ways it hasn't and we still witness a lot of regressive beliefs and behaviors... so in a sense, it feels like things haven't really improved, you know, even though they technically have. The wrongs of the past are still in some ways relevant to the present and it would be nice if rather then hand waving it all off as a "different time", we can take the time to learn and examine it, then apply what we learned to our current day.

[@nitrosherbert888]

3:24Damn it where is that song from I remember but I don't remember.

[@security_blanket44]

Other Friends from Steven universe the movie

[@anonymousyoutuber1405]

I do have to say, the person who's video you showed DID go into how the media we watch DOES make an impact and we SHOULD be critical.

[@LilianOrchard]

I know that. I watch them. The thumbnail was just really good as a visual aid.

[@anonymousyoutuber1405]

@@LilianOrchard thank you for clearing that up! Excellent video as always!

[@CalicoCaracal]

Just because it was a different time does not make it okay. Modern Standards are different from the past for a reason. Because the standards from the past were probably not right or okay. Heck, there may be standards today that in the future will be considered not okay. But "it was a different time" is not an excuse, merely an explanation and it shouldn't be used as an excuse.

[@YEY0806]

It's bad because the stance "well, it's a different time" just terminates the complexity of the fact that while it was a different time, there WERE people and groups whose standards were similar to our own. People in the past weren't this hivemind that all supported "racism" and "slavery," who then just magically realised, "Oh wait racism and slavery is bad now."

[@ShadowDOA]

This video reminds me of Anita Sarkisian's tropes vs women series. (I mean that in a good way) I feel like more of this stuff should be called out instead of stupid debates on the internet that go nowhere. This is in fact the same problem that's happening with weebs. They claim that Japanese people aren't influenced by the outside world (ironic if you actually watch any anime ever or play any Japanese games ever) to avoid criticism of a country they aren't even from to not have to talk about their obsession with female characters who look like children. But I digress great video Lily.

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

Having never watched the Rocky Horror Picture Show, I can still easily guess the main reason people watch it and defend it: TIM CURRY. When you have Tim curry in your movie, regardless of what bad vibes the narrative may bring, you will focus on him, and only him, whenever he is on screen.

[@elizabeths.3307]

It's interesting what you said about Family Guy and Hubari. My siblings and I (we're white, half of us aren't straight, if that's relevant) often like to joke about bigotry by basically repeating things bigots say and laughing at the absurdity of it (we'd do this with all basically and bigotry, racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc.). To be clear, it's always obvious nobody believed the bigotry, and we were making fun of bigots. I used to find it funny too, but I find that as I've been learning more and reading about more people's experiences, the jokes have started being less funny. It's harder to laugh when you remember those ghoulish things are real things that people hear and experience. I don't think those jokes are always bad (for instance I find it helpful for venting about the terrible things my Fox News Grandma says), but I'm trying to take a more critical look at the frequency that we make those jokes at and the things we okay with laughing at, so I thought it was interesting that you brought that up.

[@aleksydawidowski1331]

It feels a but awkward to ask, but could you provide a source on the contemporary feminist critique of Princess Knight? Japanese feminist critique of anime seems like an interesting topic to follow-up on

[@SparkpadArt]

Excellent video. The only thing really _different_ about "a different time" or "a different culture" is how easy it is/was to ignore criticism. And the ability to learn and improve from criticism, whether about works of fiction or opinions of reality, is an essential social skill that applies to pretty much any human interaction. Sometimes I worry that fandoms have trapped themselves in an echo chamber, surrounding themselves with like-minded people specifically to reinforce their non-critical enjoyment of a product and ignore the impact it has on the bigger picture of culture. I haven't felt super invested in any particular fandom, except maybe the general concept of anthro characters, but that might be a good topic to discuss if you haven't already.

[@graysonllewellyn8734]

hey, glad to see you're feeling better! You sound much clearer here. I thought you were joking when you said you'd get progressively worse but... yeah, by the end of last video you sounded downright miserable. Thanks for going through what you do for us.

[@sabrinaking1873]

My parents both agree that stories like Gone with the Wind, the Great Gatsby, and Wuthering Heights are terrible books and when I asked why they explained to me the writing and character problems that made them so bad. I'm glad I never read them or was forced to read them like other people in schools were. The only importance that these books or media like this has is as a historical reminder and nothing more. A look back at how bad something was, acknowledging it was bad, and then moving on to try and not repeat it.

[@esbeng.s.a9761]

Something I realised is that most people who want to change sociaty is the people dealing with worst parts of that sociaty.

[@asterling4]

yep. following the same logic, the people who say stuff like "i don't get involved in politics" are the people who benefit from a society's existing exploitation and don't care enough about other people's suffering to do anything about it.

[@YEY0806]

@cady Yeah, for those people, their entitlement of "neutrality" and being an "unoffensive mediator" is more important than actually developing a backbone to take a stand against real issues that will actually get things DONE. But they won't in fear of potentially insulting ANYONE that can tarnish their entitlement.

[@piens51]

@@YEY0806 Or you know we don't care about the politics as we are doing long work days and last thing we wana do is protest or push some narative foward. The precous free time we have is too precous to be bother with it in any meaningfull way. Heck some people dont bother to know their mayors or senators as while it inpacts them they couldnt give a crap less about them in their daily lives.

[@Tairafan]

I was wondering when someone was going to point out how awful rocky horror is

[@cookies9236]

I’m glad it seems ur doing better ❤️

[@thesadisticskitty7665]

7:53 Ugh, the TCC. If you want to see horrific violence in a movie, just watch literally any slasher flick.

[@grimsteamreaper]

3:28 A. HOW DARE YOU B. You right

[@cadweirdness6133]

Honestly it's simple. We can recognize when something is bad about a game, or book, or TV show. I love miraculous ladybug but it's romance is a overcomplicated will they won't they that turned into a love square and has the main character being fairly toxic. And I knowing that can acknowledge that it's shit and watch it anyways. We can see the bad parts of TV shows and find enjoyment in them just not enjoyment jn those bad parts. It's the same fucking thing on a much wider scale. You can find the bad, toxic and racist elements in princess knight and decide if the good in it is enough to have those terrible things sour the experience the same way you would any other flaws. It's just more important to understand these flaws and understand that it's bad and not make excuses for problematic material!

[@dantejacks6956]

So the modern standards are only recently noticeable, or even these great "leaps" in representation are because of people being critical about the media they consume. Rewriting problematic material to make it more easily bearable or acceptible to people who consume the work is good. People who don't care about the opinions of others have to be shown those that care are around and they receive the money and attention over their crappy excuses of representation and display of problematic material. And English teachers who taught you to look for stuff even when it isn't there were just trying to make you look stupid. I knew that already. No wonder English class sucked. Joking aside, I see what you mean. I guess that why some creators go to see movies in theatres twice instead of just once and declaring it good because they're riding the high on the climax and ending that just made everything come together like a perfect cut of pie or cake. The reason so much good can be found in media today is because of highly critical and vocal protesters of what they consume. Thanks for the lesson today teacher Lily

[@KaminoZan]

I haven't actually bought a piece of music since.... 1996? '97? Until now. I bought Lil Nas X's Montero album at full price, thanks to your video! He is indeed lovely!

[@isapu1948]

Glad you got better

[@saragoodman1020]

I love how you singled out people who ignore criticism of their problematic faves for how selfish and childish they really are. People like that always take criticism of something they like as a personal attack, because they have made that piece of media some kind of obsession instead of a work to be enjoyed and analysed. They won't accept that it has very glaring issues because that would be admitting that something they see as part their entire personality is not perfect and deeply flawed. This is why I try not to develop obsessions on any shows, films or books I consume, partly because expanding your comfort zone is very important and also so I don't get burnt out by that piece of media and subject all of my time to crafting theories, getting upset over fictional characters and having nothing to do during hiatus. It's unhealthy, but it also kills your enjoyment of the work and other works you might be interested in.

[@stevenschramm6640]

I tried watching the movie, didn't care for it since it's way too long and I never read the books or bother to check it, and while I would say the same stereotypical phrase I never knew what the context of the story so thanks for the context.

[@Shades781]

"It was a different time." Yes, but that never made it right. This can be an answer to "why would they have racism in [insert 1940s movie]?" Racism may have been more socially exceptable at the time but it was never an excuse. If someone applies modern standards to times where specific stuff wasn't possible, use that phrase.