Baldur's Gate - A Messy Origin of RPG Romance

[@keve5534]

The shift towards rpgs including a dating sims in every choice game was has made me realize how many people are just to embarrassed to just find a dating sim they like to play. BG3 is talked about and most of the media around it is centered on the romance aspect with the gameplay being secondary. I just started seeing things from the later character stories is the past week.

[@SomebodyUnknownPerhaps]

Main story is kinda boring imho :(

[@TheRebeIPath]

i had this problem for years and could never put it to words so i appreciate yours and yahtzee's pair of videos on the subject. could never fight the feeling that characters in these modern character rpgs just felt like "sex scene dispensers" you just butter up to until the values are met.

[@ananaspizza7014]

a dating sim where the characters have distinct preferences and sexualities sounds really interesting. i do like the ones where every love interest is available to the player regardless of gender, but they do feel a bit stale sometimes. a game where characters are only interested if you make certain choices sounds really fun.

[@EveleenKisune]

Fully agree. I guess the ask is that it's well balanced between samesex and hetero couples. (doesn't have to be 1:1 but close) and like with what happened in the scene Lily showed of Sheppard where characters stay in character and make spending time with them worth while if they'll date you or not. It would also be nice to see ace people too, and have them simply take no interest in sex (and have them turn you down if you push it after they set boundaries)

[@chagrinchap1739]

BG3 does do this, but only with a couple of them. Most you can be nice and good and theyll be all over you if youre just sauve enough with them. Astarion you have to be a smart ass, at least in my experience and Minthara you have to be evil in act 1 but chill out more in the later acts with her. Downside is having her around makes it really hard to have a lot of other people in the party, due to what it takes to get her.

[@hinata1ize]

"None that i would care to tell." "I'd rather you didn't." "I took a boat." As a black woman who has been called things like "dark meat," I was very disgusted with how they talked to Hexxat, but I did like her how her responses made them sound as stupid as they are. Which does nothing to alleviate the fact that the writers actually wrote that racist crap in but still.

[@biecie]

As a black guy I'm surprised how fetishy some people are able to type a sentence by using the word chocolate as a description. Like there's regular where you could see it used in a YA novel. Just a color, move on. Then there's fetishy where it'd be found in a borderline erotica novel with a shirtless dude on the cover. Most likely on a book rack near the register at a Dollar Store.

[@cimbfm]

Its wild hearing you go in depth into baldurs gate after so long, but extremely welcome. This kind of commentary I appreciate in RPG discussion.

[@Phaserdragon]

Probably why I was disappointed the most with karlachs romance in bg3 not leading to an end where she doesn't have to go back to hell, it felt like there was something you could be doing through each act that could lead up to a fantasticly sweet ending

[@KingSettrigh]

Technically there is an ending where she doesn't go to hell and you have a happy life with her although it kinda isn't Karlach at that point at least visually.

[@jayfeather5x569]

From what I've heard they cut some of her story short bc she was a late addition. However, I've heard that they're gonna implement a patch to include a better ending for her

[@professordetective807]

There are at least four spells in D&D that could potentially save her, but I'm pretty sure you never get that high a spell level, so they aren't in the game.

[@julianfischer6404]

@@professordetective807 You can see that they remained on the first drafts for her endings.

[@PeachShortcake_]

​@@professordetective807i was rly hoping our level cap was at least 18 😭 so disappointed. I understand spells & classes get a lot more complicated at that point tho. Maybe with dlc, or bg4? Hopefully it doesn't take another 20 years tho 😢

[@vivil2533]

I always found it strange how much emphasis people put on romance in BG3. Maybe im the odd one, but the romance felt like an after thought to me when i was playing. Mainly because romance was just an aproval meter and a dialog choice away. Which really shows when you have to keep turning people down. I think its the lack of build up, I called Karlach hot once now she's talking about riding me until i see stars. I barely even talked to Gale, and he's obsesing over me more than his goddess ex-girlfriend. I had to turn him down twice in my first playthrough! I know persona is basically 100% anime tropes but atleast with the social link system you have at least 8 whole cutscenes dedicated to socializing with a person before the romance happens. In BG3 people just wanna sleep with you. I dont even know what i did to get the mind flayer trying to sleep with me? On my first playthrough I was resisting the parasites, and actively refused to trust him. Yet I had to turn him down, what the hell.

[@therotryzit]

One thing that i like about the love interests in Stray Gods is that they are depicted as people with their own motivations, goals and secrets. Which means that at some point Grace will have to confront the fact she's been lied to about certain things. And i like that there is a bit of conflict there. The one exception to this is Freddie who is very open and honest but she is the only of the love interests Grace knew beforehand everyone else she meets during the game. Granted none of them seem to like decieving you and they are remorseful about it. I don't play a lot of games in general and i'm not interested in games where all your romacne options are just waiting for the player to press the right options so that you can have sex with them. But with this game i'm was surprised how the romance didn't go through the usual motions like in other games.

[@LilianOrchard]

Fun fact: Baldur's Gate 2 and Stray Gods have the same writer: David Gaider

[@mikailaturkleson7472]

@@LilianOrchard That was a treat to learn. Going back to the romances in Stray Gods after hearing Lily go over the romances in BG2 made me see the Gaider influence all throughout.

[@therotryzit]

@@LilianOrchard That's why people should look out for writers if they want more of the stuff they like.

[@nekukurora197]

Freddie was also the only romance I really liked, kinda a pity, then I ended up getting pans route my first time threw

[@I_have_a_new_desk]

I remember a comment in a video called balder gate 3 “A dating sim with combat elements” and people recommending mods to minimize combat.

[@andrewnelson9580]

When the enhanced editions came out I was doing the obligatory "evil" play through to see the new evil characters and was quite surprised to learn that I had apparently been romancing Dorn when he propositioned me in the brief downtime between the groups of angels I was helping his slaughter which would have been immersion breaking if it wasn't so perfectly on brand.

[@benjaminhill3378]

I admit that I have no knowledge of BG II. However, if they actually PULLED OFF the kind of grisly messy Romance you're talking a here, I may need to give it a try. That's a vicious, complicated, high wire act of character writing that I've seen BOOKS fail to perform. So to hear about it from a video game is something worth noting. Also, Horrible Knowledge is the best knowledge...lay it on me.

[@alicebaskervill7590]

12:13 Reading all the dialog for Hexxat made me like that old meme where a stick figure stretches as far away from a monitor as possible from such disgust... Have the games been that creepy toward women of color all the time? I'm not very much of a gamer and most games I play are singleplayer, and the racism is mostly covered by translation to my first language, if there is any that I could see.

[@LilianOrchard]

Hexxat was an addition in the Enhanced Edition in 2013. Beamdog left her very underwritten compared to their other OCs. Ironically this makes her the most bearable, but the party members being creeps is hard to stomach.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

@@LilianOrchard IT WAS 2013?! Jesus Christo.

[@FatherIimaginedyoutaller]

This video made me realize I was never attracted to Malavai Quinn from SWTOR (I mean being called My Lord definetly did things to me but Im too srupid to know the differences between a turn on and gender euphoria) but i was deeply and Morbidly fascinated by my character, Chiaros Curo aka Darth Nessight, wanting to bang him. Im neither a "things she can fix him" or "i want to make him worse" kind of guy, but a secret third thing. (I want to write an entire dissertation on what is wrong with both of them). Thanks Lily, your videos always provoke self reflection on my person.

[@ancientundergroundbiomech]

a very good vid! always nice to hear more about old crpg games

[@אביתרפייגין]

I really love your videos and I just wanted to add that I think what made baldur's gate 3 so sexual is kind of the culture around D&D and the memes surrounding it. D&D has always been marketed as kind of a place for you to complete your fantasies in and that obviously drew a lot of people who wanted to add their sexual fantasies into it and I think that it kind of influenced the whole culture and everything surrounding D&D (including the whole bards seducing anything that walks and everything that's doesn't). Personally it's not something that I really connect with or really like in particular but that's just my take on it. Thank you for listening and that's what I had to say. Thanks!

[@JustALark]

It surprised me when you said that when romancing the bg3 characters you aren’t dealing with messy pasts that complicate the romances in interesting ways, especially considering Astarion, I get the reasoning behind poking fun at his affect and snark, but when you get into it his story is deeply rooted in torture and trauma that sounds similar to how you describe the bg2 characters. And almost all of the companions in BG3 have those complexities, especially when you get past the first act.

[@LilianOrchard]

The problem is that their stories are too big. BG2's characters' complexities is "I'm under pressure to join the Paladins" and "I'm grieving the death of my husband." Things that add edges to their characters. BG3's companions are "I'm enslaved to a monster "I used to be enslaved to a monster" "I used to be enslaved to a monster" "I'm enslaved to the porn parody of a BG2 character" "I used to be the sugar baby of a monster" "I used to be enslaved to a monster AND I LIKED IT!" So first out of the gate: Every character is the same. So Astarion can't even hold a candle to Wyll or Karlach. And second, they're just too fucking big. It's not enough for Gale to be a jilted sugar baby, he has to be the jilted sugar baby of MYSTRA HERSELF. Astarion isn't just an abuse victim, he's the abuse victim of the Vampire King. BG2 characters had problems that 21 year old Bhaalspawn could contend with at Level 7. Low stakes have more meaning, and BG3's problem is the stakes are through the roof almost instantly.

[@pkmnherofan22]

I demand you stop calling your stuff terrible and garbage because it’s all delightful and insightful! To quote mine that Antony C video “You could read the phone book and make it interesting!” Hearing about an era of gaming just a little before my time is so fascinating and I love hearing how the times and systems have changed is captivating! Another banger Lily! Excited for the Pokémon video next!

[@bleakautomaton4808]

It would be great to hear her thoughts on the BG mod, even while waiting on the Pokemon vids.

[@Naoise012]

Okay, so I see the problem with the dialogue examples regarding Haxxat, but I have to say that "I'd rather you didn't" is an excellent response to someone threatening your life.

[@LilianOrchard]

I didn't show it, but a player response right after is "I'd ALSO rather you didn't."

[@Naoise012]

@@LilianOrchard That's brilliant, awful that it got to that point, but I love that level of casual disregard. Like dude's threat is a minor inconvenience at best.

[@lucythevixen8757]

I thought shape of water without all the fish fuck memes was just the little mermaid

[@red9485]

Great video! You opened my eyes to what RPG romance could and should be and am now considering playing BG2. As someone who loves Fire Emblem and Persona 3-5, (since you brought up P5) the respective "support" and "social link" systems are pretty lame stand-ins for romance systems. They feed into plenty of other features and mechanics in their respective games very well, but as a personal way to get into the headspace of characters, build upon and tie-in with their developments in the main plot, and romance them, they're often pretty shallow. On top of the fact that same-sex options are terribly limited, shoddy, and other aspects of the relationship systems elther accidently or seemingly try to appeal to greasy weebs.

[@samflood5631]

At least the romances in both Fire Emblem Awakening and Threes Houses can work if it is written well. Whenever a self inset character like Robin and Byleth interacts with a character like for example Lon’qu, Cordelia, Dimitri or Dorothea, you get to know them better like in terms of backstory and more on their characters. Overtime, said character changes for the better as they have fallen for the self insert Avatar.

[@StarlightStream]

Go for that video. I am interested how that turns out.

[@anna____bear8135]

When Lily posted a new video my day is better than it was before!

[@I.Simmonds]

Huh, truthfully the first rpg I ever played was Kotor. I bought Never Winter nights on steam (Didn't get to it yet), I know of BG 1 +2, Planescape Torment, Icewinddale, Now I regret never playing them before BG3. Was the Bioware formula so all influencing that there is such a differences between pre 2003 rpgs and post?

[@LilianOrchard]

I don't think it's a matter of it being all influencing, it's just that pre 2003 game writers needed to be actual writers. Since then most game writers are fans of other games, and when your only inspiration is being a fan of other things it causes this kind of creativity inbreeding.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

I think it less influence, as mostly means through which you can make game in the budget. Game engines with graphical fidelity are really not as maluable as those of old and it also depends on what you focus.

[@LilianOrchard]

@@mikhaelgribkov4117 Game budget has nothing to do with it.

[@VoxTenebrae]

Honestly I didn't even realise the romances in BG3 were that surface level in a general sense. I'm a decent way through my first play through and I got into a romance with Lae'zel. Her romance can barely even be called "romance" (the game even lampshades this with some of the conversation options), but that's very much in line with her character. She is a very straightforward character who takes what she wants and only respects those who do the same. She's not a sentimental character. For her, life is about survival, not forming attachments. So I figured her "romance" was the way it was because of Lae'zel as a character.

[@LilianOrchard]

They're all written that way

[@VoxTenebrae]

@@LilianOrchard I'm initiating romance with Wyll in another play through, and it's a lot more romance-y than with Lae'zel. His reaction when you kiss him during the saving the Grove party was adorable.

[@TheGamingKidNetwork]

this was a really interesting video to watch, I had no idea how intricate and squicky some of the romances in baldur's gate's character romances. besides the squickyness, I like how much care was put into them as characters. I am in a similar boat as you, where I would be more interested in modern rpgs if they had more focus on characters instead of sex appeal. like it says something that the only upcoming rpgs I am interested in are remakes of older games like paper mario 2 or final fantasy 7, where there was more appeal besides sex. I would be interested in seeing you talk more about baldur's gate, as I find the games so interesting just based on what you talked about.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

4:48 This frame is so funny, because you can read "Paladin Brainrot" as his name XD

[@dantejacks6956]

Thanks I needed this. I was wondering if I should get into balder’s gate original and 2. Honestly I have been playing 3 and that’s because it’s start with what’s new and see what I want to do with the first two, at least for me. I’d love to hear what you have to say about that one cursed MoD, because I know you’ll lace it with jokes that only make things slightly lighter and that’s why I’ve liked your style of videos for a long time. So please, talk about it and teach me to hate myself for not jumping on this series when it began

[@russianbear0027]

I would be glad to see a video about that mod if youre inclined to say somethibn more about it. As for dialogue outside of the camp. Yeah i found it frustrating in mass effect how you couldnt have a proper conversation off of the normandy with party members. In dragon age origins you could talk outside camp, but certain convos were locked to the camp. From your words im guessing the later dragon ages lock everything to camp.

[@Kalle_Demos]

I caught that Dragon Age 2 shade! But I agree with your point, player-sexual romances are inferior to well written characters that have agency. The problem with that however is that all too often in the predominantly cis, het gaming industry, LGBT characters and romances are often an afterthought with everything else designed to cater to straight men. See Mass Effect. Kaidan isn’t even the worst example. In the early days of Andromeda, there was outcry from the fandom on the lack of M/M options. And rumors, I don’t know if this was ever proven, that these were choices made in an attempt to appease Feaux ‘News’ and phobic gamers. Only after massive backlash was Jaal made a bisexual romance option in a subsequent update. And one writer came forward and stated that she had to fight to make the character she’d written, Vetra, bisexual as well. Characters with explicit sexualities are preferable but the reality is LGBT gamers are often left with crumbs. Which is why I’m not mad at the existence of player-sexual romances. It’s something. Dragon Age is a rare exception, see Dorian Pavus. Sad that such a stark contrast exists within the same studio. But in defense of Dragon Age 2, it’s important to point out, as you did, that the characters are bisexual, not player-sexual. One of the writers confirmed that they are canonically bisexual and that distinction is important because that means they’re bisexual in any medium they show up in. Comics, games, tv series, etc. DA2 is really an underrated gem. And one of the few times as a gaymer that I’ve felt seen. Having replayed multiple times, it’s clear to me that the blanket bisexuality is written with some intention. The story, themes and narrative of DA2 I think are very relevant to many queer experiences and struggles. At it’s heart, a found family, albeit somewhat toxic and dysfunctional, that gravitate to each other through shared identity and help each other through adversity. And unlike DAO and DAI, the romance with the most plot relevance, in those cases, Morrigan and Solas, isn’t strictly hetero. While romancing Anders, he explicitly states his attraction to the same sex and the player can choose to respond in kind. Going on adventures with my explicitly queer protagonist and their explicitly queer love interest and their explicitly queer friends and allies meant a great deal to me. Throughout the whole of DA2 I never felt like an afterthought and I’ll always appreciate the game for that. And FYI: The Same Sex Romance Mod for Mass Effect on Nexus Mods is incredible and I strongly recommend it. It’s very well done, edits any misgendering, cutscenes and even text and dialog from other characters for a seamless experience. Available for the original trilogy and The Legacy Edition.

[@MysticDiamonds5566]

I had to look it up and find out that the "memory of the memory" joke from the Harry Potter video was from Baldurs Gate, I loved it. Perhaps You'll comment on "Planescape Torment" whenever you like. Emphasis on *Perhaps* and *whenever*

[@midnightjay]

I don't have history with earlier cRPGs (BG3 was my first one) but I do wish they had characters have preferences and they were actualized more. In some ways they are, each character has their own stuff outside of the mindflayer infection but how much varies between characters. I have not beat the game yet but I do agree that people focus heavily on the romance. What drew my to BG3 was the tactical gameplay at first, I know zero about DnD or the franchise as a whole and at the start of the game non of the characters drew me in. I do think Larion could've worked more on writing the characters outside of romance since they are too easy to romance. I know the game has 3 acts total but you can gain high approval for romance/sex in act 1. I thought it'd be a big build up but it can be easy lol A few of the characters do take thought though, some actions and decisions can lock you out of their interest. Gale seems to be the easiest to romance (I got close to him without him even being in my party) though people say he was bugged or something. Shadowheart seems tougher to get close to if you don't figure out not to pry or she'll close herself off completely. Astarion had been the most challenging for me based on how little he approves of and if you're playing a typical good alignment route it'll be tough since he seems to be chaotic neutral. You do have to consider the character's alignment/stuff they share with you but the writing could be taken leagues further, I agree. I have not played a Mass Effect game but with the trilogy on steam I could give it a shot. I feel robbed, I want to see Hexxat. Her design looks cool and would've loved her for a companion in BG3. BG3's companions could use a little more diversity (not for pandering but if they actually would write the characters well). There's Wyll though he doesn't seem as fleshed out but I'm not far in the game so maybe he is and I haven't gotten there yet idk I heard he had little to do in EA and they rewrote him for the full release so he probably is still going to be underdeveloped compared to others. I hope not. 12:12 Maybe I should try the previous games after BG3 since the writing is different. The casual racism with Hexxat sucks though. I mean, racism is prominent in BG3 (which is another discussion altogether not just in BG but the fantasy genre as a whole) but with Hexxat it feels really wrong considering she's a black woman first and a vampire second and those speaking to her see it that way too. Or so it feels with those quotes in that context.

[@kelstitch]

I really loved this dive you went into discussing these romantic arcs across Baldur’s Gate 1-2, even while I know next to nothing about them as well as the third instalment it’s rather insightful to examine how they’re handled in this format, since these are games that you’re well accustomed to and familiar with that I trust you in giving a honest reflection on them, and shedding light on aspects that’ve aged poorly. Ps: I felt really vindicated when you said Baldur’s Gate 3 was just DND but with the only relation to Baldur’s Gate was it’s title as a few people within my online circle have tried getting me into it, and I’d tell them that it’s not something that particularly interested me, and also that it looks like much of the DND content we already been getting in the mainstream like Critical Role that my partner’s really into. So thank you for that, Lily

[@elizabeththomson4526]

I've been playing BG3 now that I've got a laptop that can run it, and I have to say I agree. I'm gay and not into harsh romance, so it was obvious that I was going to end up romancing Karlach in hindsight since she's the only lady in the party at the beginning who was even slightly interesting and didn't act like she'd tear my throat out if given the chance. However, I decided that I would come up with my own little oc and that I'd play her strictly with a "what would she do" mindset, so I forced myself to not pick options specifically focused on gaining approval with any specific character. It made me enjoy the game more, but it also led to me having mixed feelings about the romance immediately when literally every party member except Astarion wanted to be in my pants at the druid party. My character, a drow sorcerer named Veline, who I've been playing as neutral good barely showed an interest in most of them before this point, hell, I'd not changed my adventuring set up even once to have them around during gameplay. I'd taken Karlach, Wyll and Shadowheart (despite not liking her because I needed a healer). The rest I kept in camp doing nothing because I found Astarion annoying, Gale boring and Lae'zel useful but already having Shadowheart in my party made me resist the idea of taking anyone except the two characters I liked. I've found that I don't actually /enjoy/ any of the individual character stories, I like the story I've been making for my character, and they just happen to be there. I like BG3 because I like being Veline, a rigid drow who does her best to help those who she thinks deserves it but who approaches violence with gusto, hurling fireballs at anyone who looks at her funny. Who will lie and cheat to get what she wants and to keep useful allies on her side, but will not hesitate to kill someone for doing things she perceives as over the line. Which is why I killed Shadowheart to stop her becoming a Dark Justiciar, because Veline would have believed that not only was it morally wrong, but also that Shadowheart had stopped being useful. However, I'm fully aware that this is me projecting a character onto a blank slate and that this character I've built up only makes me enjoy the game because I decided to make her up. BG3 is a very good game but the romance feels so much like it was there because it /had/ to. I don't like how most of the characters feel so barebones when you take a step back because all the development they get that really seems to orient around the idea of "Well by saying this/making this choice, they'll be more likely to fuck you." None of the character choices feel like they matter because you as a player want to see these characters happy, it feels like character decisions are built around getting to bonk. It feels like if you reject a character they just kinda turn off in a way because the story feels built around a shallow romance and not any substance. I'd like to be able to get close to these characters with an imminent love confession.

[@Jarakin]

Well I personally already have that horrible knowledge. So heck yeah let’s spread the suffering!

[@lucasduberger-deret3550]

Yeah, I’d really like a video on that one mod, please.

[@esoopthederp7672]

Your mention of dark romance reminds me of the romances from Cultist Simulators

[@Meddling_Mage]

im not enfranchised in bg at all, i only learned it exists thanks to a magic the gathering crossover set, but im interested due to your previous mentions of the [mostly messed up stuff]. always here for a lily video! edit: oh my

[@7OwlsWithALaptop]

What is the Bioware style of storytelling?

[@LilianOrchard]

Character focused drama first, everything else second

[@7OwlsWithALaptop]

@@LilianOrchard ok thx! Makes sense why its differnt then, since a lot of stories are more focused with plot and setting.

[@LilianOrchard]

I know it annoys me

[@daninogil]

not a fan of the shape of water pretty mediocre film in my book. my main problem, beside the creepy diner "subplot", is the glorification of the main character special romance instead of developing it. I get it any romance should get the chance to form and how wrong it is that the "American dream" believers block it but the romance doesn't pass the attraction faze and it becomes a movie about two characters doing kissy faces in an apartment just because they both "have gills" and maybe, occasionally the main character will describe their sex, thrilling. I almost made a mash up between the ending of the movie and "in one indescribable instant", a parody song , that how cheesy and ill-advised this ending was.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

The pick up lines with Hexxat truly make me cringe inside so hard.

[@flob8862]

Damn I love when you talk about my childhood Keep going!

[@chagrinchap1739]

Its funny you mention everyone being a reflection of the older games companions, because after hearing how you talk about Viconia, Minthara is almost identical. Sure she'll sleep with you if you side with her in Act 1, but in act 2 if you help her out and free her from the Absolute, she questions you on your decision of helping her slaughter the grove. Going with the practical option of getting her good favours, might not seem like the nice thing to say, but for a dark elf like her, it is. Shes rude and blood thristy, so being the same is what works. Rolling over and treating her like, lets say Karlach, wont work as well or at all, shes not some damsal in distress or sweetheart deep down. I played before her dialogue bug was fixed, and am starting a new run to test it, but shes the same trap it seems. Dont roll over and dont act like you can fix her. She doesnt want to be fixed and she wants less of a romantic partner and more just a partner who will test her and make her better.

[@AsterSapphire777]

As much as I love bg3 and ME it's so annoying how wham bam ty ma'am the romance is. I don't mind waiting! Give me these characters forming deep bonds with each other and learning about each other pls. Also I'm living astarion catching so many strays lately

[@TheRusty]

Well in fairness, BG3 does have hte element of "Welp all of us are going to be squid-headed monsters tomorrow maybe, might as well tangle our bits together before they slough off!"

[@MaceLight]

I would like to watch a video about the mod. i watched you play some of it and it looked intresting

[@artlessmonster8376]

Stealing lines from Noah Caldwell-Gervais? Come on. Not cool.

[@slikkh9522]

Yuuup. Just came off that video and the plagiarism is blatant.

[@ogliara6473]

I really agree with regards to defining a character's sexuality as a part of their personality, especially with societies like the Drow. A gay Drow woman has a more interesting story when you remember how much gender matters to them. And the story of a gay Drow guy being accussed to the Drow equivalent of witchcraft for not wanting to participate in the matriarchy is an interesting story. My current dnd character is a half-drow transwoman, where her whole story rests on her being trans and being accused of "just wanting female privilege".

[@LilianOrchard]

Honestly, BG2 was the first and last time Drow Society was interesting. Since then it's just been a Straw Matriarchy that the mostly male lore writers use to stroke their own egos.

[@scarlette_rose]

I think my current problem with Baldur's Gate 3, aside from the combat, is the fact the characters don't feel like... people. They're stand-ins for archetypes and caricatures that would attract certain players. It's very easy to stumble ass backwards upon the romance for each of the characters because they are made to be as readily available for any and all players. As a result, they can feel shallow, not just a romance arcs, but as overall story avenues. Gale is super easy to romance, but he can feel paper thin as a result. All the story has got going for him is he loves magic (in its every conceivable connotation), love when you do good things, and he's got a magical bomb in his chest. Karlach is buff-woman-who-hit-good-and-hard. Admittedly, I'm a sucker from strong women with abs for days. She likes when you do good things and beat up bad people. I love her, but from what little I've heard from how her story ends, there is no happy ending with her. Shadowheart and Lae'zel dislike you until you've earned enough brownie points from them to want to sleep with you. (Not even build a friendship. Just skip right over all that relationship building and get right to bone-town. It's weird and can often times come right out of left field.) Wyll loves when you're heroic and Astarion loves it when you're evil/selfish. And everyone of them can be accessed by every kind of player character. You can just dive head first into every romance and none of the characters will form any other opinion of your character outside of grow romantic feelings. None of them have preferences for gender. They only thing they demand is monogamy. It's overwhelmingly superficial because no one has thought and/or feeling for how your character conducts themselves in regards to how the romance plays out. ... If I had to sum it up; The character you romance in these stories bend to suit your needs. They are made as malleable as possible so they can all be "fixed", saved, or redeemed by the hands of the player, instead of contending with the idea of what it would mean to romance a Gale, a Karlach, a Lae'zel, etc. It's all superficial.

[@scarlette_rose]

@@blacksesamecandies I would argue on the "several polyamorous characters". Karlach and Astarion are both 'okay' with you sleeping with Halsin, but it becomes very clear it stems from a place of insecurity. Astarion's dialogue hints at his insecurity of only being wanted him for his body regarding the reasoning as to why you may want to sleep with Halsin. He makes it clear through those insecurities that he feels like he can't say no. Karlach's response is more... overtly sad. She also thinks she can't say no. "In theory" she wouldn't be opposed to it, but its not where she is mentally or emotionally right now. She's got nothing against Halsin, but the proposal clearly hurts her feelings. Yes, Halsin and Minthara are poly, but their interest in the player character feels like a story beat with not much reasoning other than you've completely this characters quest objective, the reward is sex/sexual interest. Yes, certain decisions will affect how the other members perceive you. Siding with the goblins and killing the Tieflings will cause both Karlach and Wyll to leave the party permanently. Gales on edge. Coming between Shadowheart and her Goddess's mission is grounds for her immediate removal from the party, same as interrupting Astarions ascension. I don't think Larian failed or was surface level it the consequences for player decisions and the outcomes therein. And each story can be rather deep the more I played. But my main problem still stands with the romantic side of these stories. Playing through Baldur's Gate 3 made it very clear that, for the most part, the stories can continue with little to no changes in regards as to whether or not you are romancing any of the party members during there stories. You can help Gale as a friend, help Karalch as a friend, help everyone as a friend. The story paths for each of these character is one thing, but how the romance is handled is another. The way you accumulate points on an approval meter and on certain approval levels you are rewarded with romance scenes/interactions aren't very deep. They are shallow. It's what dating sims use and it makes any reward in the growing "relationship" feel hollow.

[@samflood5631]

Sometimes Archetypes are good if they are interesting and entertaining, like Asatarion, Shadowheart, Gale and Kar’Lach. And besides, they only become better as people if you help them resolve their personal issues like what most friends/lovers do.

[@elizabeths.3307]

Was that a bear? Wtf? Big yikes for the way people talk to Hexxat. "Do you like me?" "Yes." "Nice!" Pfft I don't know anything about Baldur's Gate, but I would like to be cursed with knowledge. Strangely enough, this was an interesting video to watch for me. As a aromantic person, my relationship with romance in media is...unconventional. I don't hate romance, but I don't really connect with romantic storylines the same way others do. It's interesting seeing someone appreciate dark romance for what it actually is and what is says about the characters involved rather than the "this turns me on because it's fucked up" attitude that I usually see with people who like that kind of thing. I guess it's easy to forget that dark romance can make for an interesting story because a) characters liking each other for weird reasons tends to be a turn off for me (this is partly cuz aro brain, partly media's long history of terribly written romances) and b) the reactions I usually see to these kinds of media are typically pretty shallow (typically a "this is hot" or "this is weird") and don't really dig into it. Not that there's anything super wrong with that, but if I don't see anyone making any semi-interesting statements on a genre I'm already kind of iffy on, well then I don't have much of a reason to go looking any deeper do I? It's just interesting hearing you dig into these weird little character romance dynamics because they genuinely interest you and make you think. I honestly didn't expect to get as much out of this video as I did. I don't know, I don't really have a point, this video's just making me introspective.

[@jordanpickering6912]

Adore this video, BG3 got me to replay the original trilogy (cause BG1&2 is basically a trilogy) and all the people are talking about is BG4 when I was expecting alot of people to go back as well but nope. Would love to see any BG1&2 content from you

[@TheMonarchofMonarchs933]

Do the mod video. I watched this video twice, as I kept wanting to hear you talk about these topics.

[@bunnyareawsome]

You had me in the first half not going to lie LOL thought this was going to be one of the videos where I just enjoy your voice Lily

[@LilianOrchard]

Wat?

[@IsaScience]

I'm sorry to say fallout 3 is my favourite, it was the first real video game I played at 20 next to portal, and I melted my laptop's SSD because I didn't have a pc.. It was a gateway to me buying and playing the originals which I have on my phone so I always have fallout with me

[@andenvelez7142]

Loving this one. I have not seen someone talk about the franchise this way. It is refreshing.

[@thehandofgod2864]

0:20 really just forgot about rasaad

[@igormorais4192]

I have thousands of hours in BG2. I think your take is trash. Minsc was a joke character and remains so. The romances on Bg3 are way more interesting and better written.

[@LilianOrchard]

If you think anyone was more interesting than Viconia, you're a fool. You do NOT have thousands of hours in BG2.

[@madamerainbowfish]

The romances in video game where the characters have preferences will always be dragon age inqistion. If you flirt with someone who your not there preference they will turn you down

[@herebejamz]

God I wish more characters where just explicitly asexual, heterosexual, homosexual, or aromantic at the very least. It would be extremely nice to just have whole ass characters. I'm pan, but like, these characters really don't feel like it half the time. Side note, the fact that Starfield of all the games this year to come out of a *Channel Steph Sterling* "Triple A" studio is like, the first game I've played where one of the main characters and "romance" options has a canonical, much loved queer relationship in their past is honestly the oddest thing. At least they got something right. Also, between ZenniMax holding a transwoman's healthcare hostage and the lackluster entirety that is Starfield, it's best if you find it off the back of a truck.

[@jaspervanheycop9722]

Yeah I'm bi (honestly pan, I just don't like the term) and I'm really tired of writers thinking we're some sort of sexgoblin people (I mean I am, but that has nothing to do with my sexual preferences XD). Every bi character has to immediately be jumping at everyone they see, when that usually couldn't be further from the truth, if anything we get to be more picky.

[@3ofClovers]

As someone who is AroAce, totally feel that.

[@biecie]

Eh, I don't know. I lean more towards if everyone is bi nobody is left out by the limited number of romances. That and the odds of having a character you like be available to you is higher. For instance DA:I and Cyberpunk was kind of a let down for me. DAI because before we got conformation on the characters I pre-hyped myself and unknowingly had my sights set on Sera, the lesbian party member. As for Cyberpunk they were just tight lipped on the very small roster of romances. Heck, I let myself down hoping that Misty was a potential romance. As for character writing I think it's fully possible to do both. Make a quality character that's available for either gender. I'd like to think it's possible at the very least.

[@herebejamz]

Sometimes, people are lesbians. Sometimes they're gay. If you're going to actually represent these in a romancable main cast that means they're going to be unavailable to you based on your gender expression in game. It just is what it is. With the exception of exploring more fluid sexualities you're cutting off a portion of representation for self indulgence and it makes it all more hollow. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying I'd like to see representation with more depth on occasion.

[@barrettbirks1058]

I feel like the best example for the way romance has changed in games is the game Subverse. It's a porn parody game of Mass Effect where the only joke is "it's a porn game but also a normal game!?" From what I've seen, all the characters are just the same character with slightly different personalities that only exist because there needs to be some build up before the sex, which shockingly isn't even that good. It's a dating sim with bad Xcom combat and bad Space combat stabled on, not even worth a porn hub search.

[@Cdre_Satori]

Darn, my face is tired from Andromeda romance and how they made the boy trap literally jump on rider. Or how Inquisition really only has two fully flashed out characters to romance and few options if you insist on not doing the writers favourite ship.

[@dianaprimley8598]

Sometimes I wonder about the depth of characters. Like in the Pathfinder games, there's a difference in Kingmaker and Wrath of the Righteous in just how different they sound. Like you can blind me and I'll be able to tell you who Octavia and Linzi are, because the game they're in is a fun wildlands conquest with chapters of battles against the forces that seek to destroy or exploit you. You're not fighting a world ending invasion of demons like in Wrath, you want your Queendom, other people want their slices of the unsettled wildlands, but they're also causing problems and want you out of the way. Every character has motivations and even the main villain for most of the game is the equivalent to Sylvanas Windrunner and in an optional final chapter, you get to kick her Lich King's ass out of your kingdom and even kill him if you meet the requirements with her in tow if you side with her against him. Wrath, just doesn't have the same feel, it doesn't feel like this is all personal. It doesn't feel like you've spent good time building up your lands and you want to defend and expand them, whilst your characters have interactions and quests from chapter to chapter. The closest you get to a warm and soft romance in Wrath is with the bisexual redemptive succubus who wants to be a good person, but won't jump your bones. She'll be upset with you if you tempt her nature, but if you support her the only reason she doesn't get physically romantic at some point is because her species literally kills people through intimate contact. In the end, she resolves her issues and a goddess rewards her for it, letting your main character and her love each other without fail. Even without that, there's a lesbian romance present in the game in the form of two allies who fight different battles, but can team up with you at points. You see how much they love each other and if you get their backstory, you learn one of them was transgender and the other gave up a valuable family heirloom to pay for her lover's magical transition. But it isn't the focus. They're lesbian wives, in love, and if you make the right choices they stick by you ultimately getting a happy ending. It's just that, no other party members characters are strong enough that it feels like their voice acting is alive and truly exciting to be around.

[@xenrusxenomorph2268]

I can't believe this video called out modern villan romances but It immediately made me think about my villan romances and that.. yes it can be ok for them to be assholes, the challenge is the character and getting to them instead of being a secrect soft boy as you said. This got me thinking of what I would like beyond just their looks which we so focus on. Going back to story, Yes... A character is more than their backstory for their romance. everything is a part of the character and there shouldn't be any chekov's guns in their designs. it should be analyzed through the way we write these relationships that should be built straight into the story. Gonna rewrite some ships I had in my head because of this video. Thanks for the new perspective

[@EveleenKisune]

That was really good. Very happy I watched it and you've convinced me I really should get around to playing this. Question for Lily (but also any fan of the bioware games that find this comment) do you consider it imperative to play Baulders Gate 1 before 2? And are there any QOL tips I should have before going into them as someone who hasn't played older CRPGs before.

[@LilianOrchard]

Baldur's Gate 1 is a fun game, though BG2 has a more in depth story. The first isn't critical, the amount of information you need to know can be summed up in a single paragraph. As for QOL tips, I'm not good enough at the actual gameplay to really give tips there honestly. Save scum like a madman.

[@EveleenKisune]

​@@LilianOrchard Thank you!

[@Storm-crow13]

This video makes me what to complain about how they petrified Minsc for 120ish years so they could have him an Boo current day Faerun. And how flat the romance is in BG3 but I don't think there is much you didn't already say about that

[@charliekefauver5654]

Putting how I feel about romance options into words perfectly

[@bleakautomaton4808]

Gotta be better than whatever the Fire Emblem games were going for in 'romance' (I mean more in newer than the GBA titles, as a kid I didn't remember much romance in the battle square map game). The ' ANIME ' up to 11 in Fire Emblem likely doesn't help.

[@bleakautomaton4808]

@@captaincrash9002 ...the fan translated copies of games only released in Japan showed 'love system' mechanics before the 3Ds.

[@joaocisne556]

when you talk about the codified romance, you are right, even fire emblem genealogy of the holy war, from the mid-90s was very rudimentary on the romance aspect, due to it being a 2-generations (in-game) game on the Super Famicom

[@Jackofalltraits_]

Do yall like anything?

[@LilianOrchard]

They said on a video where I talk about a game I like

[@OrdoBeron]

Yes please do a video on the mod.

[@OracleSpeaking8]

Well said all around~ As for me, what I'd really like is for the game to take 'no, I'm not interested in romance' for an answer. I can work with it when it's like the Mass Effect trilogy and the story is more about a character than it is about "me", but if it's a player-insert-avatar thing then the fact that my lack of interest is ignored is really counter-productive. Like, I'm having to do romances to get story content because apparently the only way to get certain characters to talk about some things is by SEDUCING them or something, that's really messed up actually! 🤨 Baldur's Gate overall seems interesting and maybe someday I'll actually get around to trying it, but Baldur's Gate 3 just doesn't appeal to me and that's like 60% of why.

[@IvellScarlett]

I think romance in video games is at its best when the player character gets to be an actual character, with their own thoughts and feelings. The player can have control over them to some extent, but they shouldn't be a completely blank slate. It always diminishes the love interest when they start falling in love with a nonentity like the blank slate player character.

[@espeon37]

Damn….I should go play the first 2 baldurs gate games they sound fun

[@Lesbean_Burrito]

Slightly related, I'm happy that Cyberpunk 2077 had a lesbian romance option. Most games make them bisexual, and call it a day.

[@casthedemon]

Im curious but why did you guys name your channel Lily and Mikaila? Are they roleplay characters? Im a little confused. I thought the channel had women on it not two dudes ngl lol.

[@LilianOrchard]

We are women

[@casthedemon]

@@LilianOrchard oh okay.

[@theundyingunknown8824]

Hey um thank you for being such a good game critic. Much of your work helped me understand I was trans and that I'd been religiously gaslit my whole life

[@braiangabriel638]

IMOEN WHAT?

[@LilianOrchard]

You didn't know about that? That mod's been around for 20 years.

[@tylermclean7943]

When I saw the promo for this video I got a little nervous. I love your content and love watching you tear into all this toxic masculine bull$#!+ but after your last video took a swing at astarion I though my new favorite game was next on the choping block. It was a nice change of pace to see you react to some intentional bad writing and be able to enjoy yourself when you know the cringe was intentional. It would be nice to see you hold up other examples of intentional bad cringe to accidental cringe content

[@LilianOrchard]

I did say it was only MILD BG3 Slander

[@tylermclean7943]

@@LilianOrchard it isn't slander if it's true. those other games sound like just the kind of skin crawling cringe you can't help but love. Its a hard line to walk. You really have to take the time to appreciate how much effort they put into making the writing just right to avoid falling off it. I just liked hearing you enjoy something that appears bad when it's clear it is what they want you to feel. Lesser minds would have just called them a creepy kink and moved on.

[@seanfox4121]

That baldurs gate 3 character voice sounded like stewie griffin lol 😆 That and the 4 kids dub of maximillian pegasus 🤣

[@julianfischer6404]

Yeah. I didn't get why Larian got that popular to be honest. While well rated I despised Divinity Original Sin 2 and its companions and characters. And Baldurs Gate 3 is OK. The romance has a more side quest feel to it. I would have more fun if the focus on that was a tad deeper and not just only romance of just having it. And espescially as Larian is a studio that couldn't write proper companion quests if their lives depend on them. Even Fallout 4 had more of that and I kinda miss it in BG3. I remember more of Nick Valentine, Piper and Preston than Gale and Laezel. And I played Fallout 4 back in 2018.

[@LilianOrchard]

It's been suggested by more than one person that Larian's success with BG3 is less about the game's own merits and more about coming out amidst a dearth of real single player games, especially RPGs.

[@danathon7131]

​@@LilianOrchard That's ridiculous, plenty of RPGs of various quality are still coming out and people aren't going to play a game that's bad just because other games are also bad. It's ok to not like Larian's approach to CRPG gameplay/story, but to say it's lacking in merit or popular for no actual reason is crazy.

[@LilianOrchard]

@danathon7131 Don't shoot the messenger

[@thegospelaccordingtoeljefe5520]

Commenting because I want to help Lily in the algorithm.

[@danieladamczyk4024]

Games gona be better without romance in them. In the end all of your waifus are fake. And they even don't love you, but your avatar. Wanna a date, go for date.

[@xxx2092]

Have you considered the game fear and hunger? It’s an indie horror rpg that based on how you talk about balders gate sounds like you would enjoy. While each character is given a backstory it’s more to serve the player an understanding of motivation for how they will act as the game plays out. The sequel game in particular is very character driven and incredibly interesting to play. There is no romance option as far as I’m aware but that’s more due to the fact that there is no time in the context of the game to have one. And while you can establish allies, the conversation are more along the lines of kindred spirits trying to survive rather then bang. Fair warning however the game pretty much needs every trigger warning I can give.

[@LilianOrchard]

I don't like horror

[@Ashiel87]

Man don't blame Bioware for anything involving Hexxat. She didn't even exist. She was added by modern Beamdog game developers who injected political nonsense into the game.

[@LilianOrchard]

...How is a vampire political?

[@Ashiel87]

Tl;Dr, the vampire and other beamdog inserts are not indicative to the quality or tone of the original games.