Maturity isn't Morally Grey

Pop Culture is enamoured with the idea that true evil doesn't exist. A conversation that becomes very awkward the moment any marginalized person walks into the room and asks what they're talking about.
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00:00 - Preview
00:13 - Intro
00:39 - Overview: Why Fandom is Stupid
01:12 - Villain Simps
03:45 - Steven Universe and Bubbling
05:50 - Genophage - Part 1
12:46 - The Geth and the Quarians
16:00 - Fiction Reflects Reality
18:03 - Bullies and Tyrants Are The Same
20:49 - You Are Equally Capable of Evil
22:33 - Genophage - Part 2
30:51 - Conclusion
#stevenuniverse #masseffect #debatebros #dictatorships

[@Lily_Orchard]

So there's a common theme of people defending the Genophage in the approval queue because no war crime is too far for an edgy freak of nature. But the sentiment among a lot of them is that the Krogan were going to destroy everything anyway. And the thing is... They weren't. They wanted space to expand from the Council, the Council didn't give it to them, so they rebelled. That's why they're called the "Krogan Rebellions." The word "Rebellion" is pretty telling about the inciting incident. In this framework, the genophage is only "necessary" if you believe that Council Dominance of the galaxy is a universal good that must be maintained. The alternative... is to let the Council reap what it has sown. The Council uplifted them. The Council treated them like this. The Council experienced the consequences of their own actions. The Genophage is a preservation of the status quo. That is all it is. That's all it was ever supposed to be. Wipe out the Krogan, and preserve the gilded throne of the Citadel. You can stop with the "Joker was right" comments now.

[@kevinmccalister4602]

I just wanted to say thanks for helping me to see the sterility plague in a new light I’ve never actually played the games, but from what I’ve heard it was a bad situation with no particularly good solution, and I’ve seen clips of Solus explaining himself but that line of imagine 999 dead babies now I see it for what it really is once you consider the personal cost thanks

[@BOYVIRGO666]

The genophage wasnt meant to be defensible. its written as a comment on reactionary government decisions. Which is why everyone involved in it eventually decides to backtrack on it because its long term effects were bad. It was meant to be a tough call made in haste. Stratholme was just bad writing.

[@Lily_Orchard]

@@BOYVIRGO666 No Stratholme was good writing, because it fully established that Arthas is a maniac. It's only bad writing if you think Arthas was meant to be some kind of corrupted hero who wanted to do good. He wasn't. Even Warcraft 3's own writers would tell you that. Teldrassil is what you're thinking of.

[@redbush5483]

God damn you are bonkers. You will ban and delete anyone you don’t like as let’s be honest that’s what 1. Actually means.

[@ChimeraLotietheBunny]

your video is done very well

[@4dragons632]

People mock the simplicity of a two colour world view (black and white), only to replace it with a one colour world view. People are foolish.

[@Lily_Orchard]

Damn that was good!

[@prasedomaci9264]

I am stealing this quote. This is a good one.

[@ncrvako]

Thank you! It is stupid on how they out morality issues in a folor palette to be represented.

[@varasatoshi3961]

The truth is there is three colors. Gray is just a lot less common.

[@MALICEM12]

I mean people are foolish, but ultimately I see most common folk utterly trapped in the black and white mind set. It's just so much more convenient for them.

[@amelancholybear1534]

"Some people interpret maturity as accepting everything in the world is *grey*, but I think maturity is accepting that human beings are capable of great acts of good but also obscene acts of evil that have neither reason nor justice. That every human being has that same capacity within them." *SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK*

[@ghostphantom8453]

I think you mean a speaker for the people with their fingers in their ears

[@amelancholybear1534]

@@ghostphantom8453 That too.

[@Anonymous-hx3pu]

At that rate that means everyone is just different shades of grey.

[@saulesalejos4483]

You had me till the last part. Is there a reason to use condescending memes in such a flawless quote?

[@callmeweaboo6250]

Me laugh in killzone games

[@pompagarissanimation2592]

It's always weird when the villains grunts can be killed in a number of increasingly creative ways, but then when the main characters bust down the villains door and has them at their mercy, there's all of a sudden an encyclopedic amount of "don't be like them", "I won't stoop down to your level", etc

[@hoangkienvu7572]

People keep complain about this trope, but I don't know which story actually does this. It's always either the main crew spares each one of their enemies, or kills each one of them.

[@fanuelnduna8191]

Pretty much my problem with The Last of Us part 2. The fact that there was weight only to killing Abby’s friends and not the legions of other people you kill made it fall flat.

[@kennethsatria6607]

I swear to god its the biggest red flag to even the best shows like Transformers prime which very almost crosses it but the case with Prime and megatron at least its shown to be an ongoing conflict not cause he can't do it its more cause he knows Megatron was once his friend and he cannot shake it completely even as he is consumed with rage. Meanwhile its total genocide with the Decepticon drones who are equally sentient cybertronians. Least unlike the movies Prime himself does not take pleasure in their deaths like his teammates and thats something at least.

[@theace8502]

@@hoangkienvu7572 I love this game to bits, but actually Fallout New Vegas has this trope in the honest hearts dlc. You slaughter your way through countless nameless foot soldiers, only to be given the opportunity to spare the leader and most evil among them

[@hoangkienvu7572]

@@theace8502 I didn't play the DLCs but I remember you can kill any of Caesar's Legion dudes without losing karma, even the named ones. I don't know about Honest Heart so you got me there

[@hoangkienvu7572]

This is why I love the Ace Attorney series. You have villains that are pure evil and those that have sympathetic motives, but in the end the series still maintain the idea that murder is bad without having to make it feel forced. The protagonist doesn't even kill anybody. He or she just sends them to jail, yet it still manages to bring up some interesting moral dilemma despite these limitations.

[@decidueyezealot8611]

The thing is its not hard to understand, anyone with a decent head on their shoulders and functioning emotions would feel off looking at a murder/murderer simply because of the knowledge they killed. It can get old if hand fisted is all.

[@alarmlessRifleman]

AA is a masterpiece that should be taught in schools I believe, and not just as a hardcore fan, but also as a person who knows a thing or two about psychology. Yes, the world of the series is goofy, oftentimes unrealistic; yes, the characters are over-the-top and kooky in their own ways. But when the author *wants* to make a multifaceted, deep and realistic character, to show how their mind works, to show how abuse, trauma and fcked up worldview can twist a mind of a person - he *does* that. Heck, the major characters are so well-written that I could write whole __essays__ about Phoenix being a messianic archetype or Kristoph being a prime example of the dark triad (and so I did, I'm a man of hyperfixation, what do you want).

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

Honestly, the one villain the got me was the one who lost sense of identity. While they're scumbag the game does a good job of showing a horror of forgetting once sense of self.

[@drustanastrophel9538]

People need to realize it’s okay to like villains in fiction without trying to justify them Revel in a little fantasy of being evil as a treat and then reflect on why it matters that you choose to do good in the real world

[@skippyskippy7687]

Facts. Sukuna from jjk is one of the most likable and charismatic villains I have seen in a while, all while being completely unhinged murderous machine with zero remorse or care for anybody but himself. Love him, cant even try to justify the stuff he does.

[@wanderingsystem9674]

(Hex) Hisoka from HxH is probably one of my favourite villains due to how completely unhinged and disgusting he is and having any sort of redemption arc to him would completely ruin the character. Even when he “joins” the heroes in certain arcs you know it is for no autruistic reason

[@dannyvalward1524]

It's so refreshing to see somebody actually understand germanys history. It's always unnerving, when the ghoulishness of that time period get's represented as anything else than the failing of a hole country, it's system and the willfull ignorance of many of it's population. We spend a lot of time in the school system going over what happend and now some start to say, oh please, spare the children the horrific images from the camps. As if some gut turning images can compare to the risk of ever repeating what happend.

[@krankarvolund7771]

Meanwhile most german schools organize at least one school trip to a concetration camp in the scolarity of the children. Because they didn't forget, and the first ones to die in these camps were german ^^'

[@dannyvalward1524]

@@krankarvolund7771 Sadly not all, but yeah, most and I think that's exactly right. But one thing of confussion: Not only the first ones to die, a lot of victims were german. The jews, the political enemys, the homosexuals etc, they all were mostly german. Most of the people that were part of a targeted group and could be squeezed for labour were germans, and beeing able to be worked to death was a requirement. Everyone else, for example the disabled were just starved to death in the nursing homes. If it was to costly to transport you to a camp you were just shot on the spot or, to save munition, suffocated in a "movable gas chamber" (mostly modificated LKWs). The camps were cruesome working camps that had most people gased when the alliance was right at their doorstep. Or when they sorted out children, elderly and a large number of women.

[@Smoothcriminal1616]

Well, that's beacuse they would get very traumatized, I remember when I was 13 years old a random guy on discord send me gore images, I couldn't sleep well for an entire mounth

[@CrabJelly5225]

It wasn’t really “willful ignorance”. Hitler straight up killed anyone who didn’t comply, and came into power without anyone voting on it. There was no way for the average German citizen at the time to fight back without being murdered or sent to a death camp. It really was as simple as “if we don’t do this we die, we need to do it” People would straight up LIE to have other people killed. I’m not defending Nazi’s, I’m saying people NEED to understand that less than 10% of German Citizens were ACTUALLY Nazis. Most people DID not agree with what Hitler was doing, but they literally did not have the means to stop him. The first thing hitler did when he got into power was literally take any guns any civilians had. If you had a gun registered to you but no longer had it and couldn’t tell them where it was? They stood you, and your whole family up against your home and shot you all to death. There was no rebelling against the Nazi’s. As much as everyone wants to vilify the WHOLE of Germany, the truth is, the atrocities committed were not at the hands of the German people, but instead at the hands of the government and military, which had secret police, and authority to kill ANYONE they deemed as a threat to the regime. It is absolutely not morally grey, and Nazi’s (true Nazi’s) deserve to be punished for their beliefs, but the fact people just straight up IGNORE that the German people were ALSO victims of the Nazi’s (no food, no textiles, rations were shit by the end of the war, everything went to the “troops” but even that’s untrue. Everything went to the top of government and to the war machine, but not at all for the soldiers. Not to mention they could literally be killed for not saying two words when entering an establishment) I mean, Nazi’s literally destroyed and killed so much of their own country and people’s lives and for what? Some fucked up notion that one race is somehow superior to the others? It’s a damn inferiority complex parading as a god complex and fucking eugenics brainwashing. These were literally *just* evil people. But the citizens as a whole that were terrorized into complying were not evil, and while they did not suffer near the amount the victims of the holocaust did, they were still victims of the Nazi war machine. TL;DR: German citizens were largely not supportive of the Nazi regime and suffered as an almost unilateral whole under Hitler’s leadership.

[@jordanespinosa2508]

It's also disturbing how much people try to explain evil as mental illness, or insanity; just something profoundly wrong with them mentally. The Joker's a popular go to for this, but he's functionally sane. He's completely aware of the harm he's causing and is in full control of his actions. He may be broken in other ways, finding humor in the horror, but that doesn't mean he should be brought in and sent to Arkham Asylum. At the very least, he should be at Blackgate Prison on death row with Batman and the rest of the Bat family keeping an eye on the area to foil any attempts at rescue. You know: assuming Red Hood didn't just up and decide to actually just gank him in his cell.

[@untitled-gv3qp]

There's actually a story where someone kills the joker and batman revived him. I get why they revived him on a marketing level, the jokers a popular character. I just don't understand why they had batman do it. They could've done what they did with red hood or anything else. It feels weird for batman to bring back someone who constantly kills everyone around him. His own lackeys and batman's kids included.

[@tajhanstewart1227]

@@untitled-gv3qp Well, in-story, it is partially due to Batman's compulsion (yes, it is a compulsion) to ensure nobody dies on his watch and the Joker being his litmus test for that principle. On the other hand, it's to prevent Nightwing (I assume you refer to The Last Laugh storyline) from being corrupted by the act of murder, especially as the person (Robin) who was thought to be killed, was actually still alive. That said, Batman HAS admitted "all I've ever wanted to do was end him..." but he cannot bring himself to do it. It's frustrating but I respect his conviction.

[@tesscook2970]

@@mra4521 Fuck yesssssss!!! I loved Terry's take down, that show was such a vibe

[@korsekil]

Yeah insanity doesn't apply if he's fully aware of the harm of his actions.

[@tenkenroo]

That’s kind of all the Batman rouges gallery except maybe mad hatter ( most iterations he believes he’s in Alice in wonderland) . To me one of the most upsetting aspects to Batman mythos is the lack of understanding of the insanity defense. Joker would never be considered criminally insane cause he understands right from wrong he just doesn’t care. Guy would never be in Arkham. Of course this could just be another example of gothams corruption. Gotham is very similar to New York City in terms of law which is why capital punishment is not present.

[@sharmelfattakhov5041]

The villain is just a person who did or does an evil act. They are still a person, you can try to explore their mind or write as many details about them as you want, but they did what they did and it should never be ignored.

[@josephgrube]

I agree whomeheartedly

[@goldiemew]

Same. This is my issue with the Phantom troupe in Hunter x Hunter. Fans of the troupe seem to gloss over what they did to Kurapika's clan to keep their eyes red post death.

[@arieljourdan2375]

@@goldiemew I even saw people theorizing whether the Kurta did something to the Phantom Troup first lol

[@jeffreymoespot5402]

Oh Mordin. No matter how noble your intentions were, you cannot un-murder millions of lives. I do like that underneath all of his excuses, he really was affected by his actions. He tried to justify it all but not really to others. Just to himself so *he* could live with it. He wasn't apathetic like the rest of the Salarians and Turians, he really cared. And his final moments showed his true character. "Not guity! Still responsible."

[@The-Last-Prime]

I still love his line from ME3: I made a mistake!

[@MALICEM12]

Eh, given the face of Krogan domination of the galaxy, which was specifically the reason they unleashed the Krogan in the first place. To stop another fast breeding race from taking over the galaxy. I can't really blame the other races for trying to nip that in the bud.

[@lupisvolk2420]

​@@MALICEM12Buddy the genocide the council races committed was so horrific, so total and complete.....there's not enough Nuremberg's for them to be hung from.

[@richardmazkin9994]

There's also a decent reason for it. The Genophage is a travesty. An incredibly immoral and unethical solution to an extinction grade problem. Sometimes a bad solution is still better than letting the problem go Unsolved. Were Wrex and Eve not around to ensure a good and stable direction for the Krogan politically, the Salarian projections would be accurate. Heck, it's the only way you can talk Mordin into not sacrificing himself in ME3. It specifically requires Wreav to be the head of Clan Urdnot and you point out to Mordin that yeah, The Krogan DO deserve a better future, but not at the expense of all the other races. Mordin specifically points out in ME2 that the Krogan need to have a unifying culture to socitally handle the population boom from have the genophage cured. The Genophage update was monstrous. never should have happened. should have let the Genophage slowly unravel. It would have given Krogan society the opportunity to adapt to the increased birth rate.

[@robokill387]

​@@MALICEM12 to say it's justified because the Krogan are a threat to them is like saying it's justified to murder slaves because they're rebelling against the slavery you put them in.

[@andreagrubaugh9699]

I remember so many people saying it was refreshing to see a hammy, completely evil bastard in "Puss in Boots: The Last Wish" with the character of Big Jack Horner - how great it was that the film never tried to redeem him, and that the character who briefly tried to believe there was good in him (Ethical Bug) ended up being the one to essentially land the final blow and kill him. A majority of people don't mind villains that are completely evil as long as they're entertaining. Buuut even now on Tumblr, there are people trying to find a reason for Jack's evilness, believing that he was lying about how privileged he was or some other BS just so they can keep calling him "babygirl" without feeling guilty about simping for a guy who was literally going to shoot a puppy in the face. Same thing happened with Jimmy Crystal from Sing 2. Fangirls will literally forgive anything if the character is cute enough or if they THINK there's something more to them, and while I completely get wanting to analyze a character, analyzation and character breakdown should not immediately equal "This character did nothing wrong because of x, y, z circumstances". You can feel for and sympathize with a villainous character while also believing that they should either be rightfully be punished in the amount that they deserve or they should actually do something meaningful that actually proves they can be good beyond just giving a simple apology (hence, "Redemption equals death").

[@jupitersrings6815]

omg seriously? 😱 remind me to stay off of Tumblr! i love Jack Horner because he’s an irredeemable bastard XD

[@tesscook2970]

I love the memes where Steven trys to reason with Jack but he's just like "yeah no im actually evil"

[@davidkoudelka10]

Agreed. Another example from Warhammer 40K is Konrad Curze, a demigod-like man who is if Jack the Ripper was combined with Batman. Konrad wants justice and will skin 1000 men, women, and children so a single planet may surrender to him. His mentality being "fear is the only way to truly bring authority". Even worse that the whole legion under him had the same mentality which caused him to hate them. Is it sympathetic that he was literally raised by no one, lived like an animal for the first few years of his life before becoming more "human"? Yes. Is it horrible that his own genetic father used him as a tool while only revealing he loved him at the end of Konrad's reign. Yes. Is it tragic that he was plagied by visions of the worst possible outcomes of humanity and even saw dreams of his own assassin killing him in the future when he was a child? Absolutely! But it doesn't change the fact that he ENJOYED the torturing, murdering, and fear while simultaneously denying he ever did, or the fact he literally killed BILLIONS over his entire lifetime for an Imperium that he would later betray out of hatred. Yes he is interesting because we get to see his mentality, like Hannibal Lector, but that changes nothing about what he is. To quote from Mass Effect, "Tragic, but not sympathetic".

[@krankarvolund7771]

"A majority of people don't mind villains that are completely evil as long as they're entertaining." I'd say it's even the best of villains. Look at Dinsey Villains, the most iconic and love are the ones that do evil for power, or for the pleasure of being evil. All the modern Disney villains are weak, because they're sympathetic or just not in the movie ^^'

[@mohabalserafe3795]

Jack horner Doesn't need sympathy that's why he's a breath of fresh air because he's an unredeemable monster same thing with characters like Ozai from avatar the last Airbender belos from the owl house the licht from adventure time bill cipher from gravity falls and more

[@ItsChevnotJeff]

And that, my friends, is why Jack Horner is not only a great villain, but a breath of fresh air He's evil and he knows it, anyone, mostly the Cricket, tries to enforce his "not everyone is evil" schtick, and Jack just pulls out an AK and shoots it all down Even his backstory isn't that sad, and he just became bad because he could "I didn't have much, just a mansion, a loving family, and a successful baking empire. You know, useless crap like that"

[@deimmartillo1674]

Complexity isn't greyness, bad people can also feel love and respect for others but that doesn't make them less evil. Having a reason is not a justification, it just means that things make sense but the meaning is the same.

[@papkinn]

This is something i wanted to say since war in Ukraine started but never knew how. I'm Polish-Ukrainian, half of my family is there near the east front some of them run away some couldn't some simply didn't want to. No words can describe waking up one day to your mother saying "War started, Russia attacked Ukraine and i can't contact anyone" and hear her cry while desperately trying to call her sisters knowing fully well it won't work or babysitting your 3 year old niece that constantly asks when she will be back home that you know no longer exists because it got bombed so you lie to her she's on long vacations for over a year now. And when this all happen what did i read on the internet? "Well this is not a black a white situation both countries are at fault and both are victims as much as aggressors here", excuse me? No it's not grey one country attacked the other, only one country is losing it's civilians to war, only one country is being destroyed and in no way shape or form lack of Starbucks in Russia is comparable to absolute horrors of war Ukrainians have to still experience to this very day. "Oh but Ukrainians kills Russian soldiers" good, deserved still nothing morally gray. While this all was going on i couldn't help but feel that Steven Universe effect on people, that idea there's no absolute evil there's always an "explanation" and that purely calling something evil is a sin in itself because we're meant to "empathies and understand", i don't wish anyone to experience war even from distance like i have to but if you didn't don't comment on how morally gray wars are, they're not you're just privileged enough to never experience one and base your opinions on work of fiction. If you choose to stay by "everything is gray" mentality i just assume you're siding with a murderers and you're too much of a coward to admit it, there's no such a thing like not having an opinion there are only opinions too risky to say out loud.

[@Lily_Orchard]

I'm so sorry to hear about what you're going through. And you're right, the people giving the "both sides are at fault" are simply Pro-Kremlin and don't want to admit it out loud.

[@maxzoloproduction]

@@Lily_Orchard I love your videos am big fan am big fan your videos my best friend is transgender I agree with all issues I also want to say love lumity they are precious also want to say your view on Steven universe made me rethink the entire show thanks for your opinion

[@maxzoloproduction]

@@Lily_Orchard am disabled myself so understanding the craziness of life how hard it is I love your mlp videos as well

[@leviHeichou]

As a fellow european I am under the impression that mainstream media and most of the people all are very aware and say out load that of course this was a totally unjustified attack and Russia is at fault. Russia finds one stupid excuse after another to justify war crimes. And in no way can you say that people defending themself and killing for that is the same as just attacking people out of nowhere. But of course on the internet people are still writing stupid shit. I am however glad that at least Europe as a whole collectivly decided that Russia is at fault relativly quick. And I agree that most people who say both are at fault just won't admit that they are pro Russia. Especially when it comes from some politicians in rather extreme right or even left corners which is really concerning. Also I think people often say stuff like that because they are scared for themselves. Be it for their safety or finances. But they don't realize that playing with and amplifying fear is a core part of Russias war strategy. Especially if it comes social media or russian tv which is why I think this kind of fear is so dangerous. It plays right in Russias hands. Also Russia comparing some of this shit to WW2 as if they are the victims that are attacked again by for examply tanks delivered by Germany to help the Ukraine is really messed up. It kind of shits on the victims of WW2 and their own history which is almost impresssive it wasn't so crazy. One can only hope that the people of Russia grow so tired of that shit they won't take it anymore. After all a lot of Russians are leaving especially the younger more open minded und clever ones which will leave the country in a desolate state in the long run. And I think of one thing we can all be sure. History will not remember this as a war where both sides are at fault. History will remember that as an unjustified attack just like the attacks that happened in WW2 by Germany. There is no question about that and already enough caricatures comparing Putin to Hitler.

[@mackenziewoloschuk7375]

It's disgusting that people can look at a war where one is very clearly in the wrong and *still* say that the actual victim is just as bad as the perpetrator of the actual crimes against said victim. I may not live in Ukraine, but I share blood with them. If I ever ran into someone so deadset on making their views about "both are at fault and Ukraine isn't innocent", I would not hesitate on slapping them, even if it may risk my job. You do not say that kind of shit and expect every single being around you to be ok with it just because it may *sound* smart. Glory to Ukraine.

[@cui8789]

Another good example is how people both in-universe and out reacted to Wonder Woman killing Max Lord vs her killing Medusa. Despite Lord having already murdered several people and intending to cause a metahuman war, Diana was villified even by those who knew why she did it. By contrast, no one said a word about her killing Medusa who was turned into a monster by the very gods Diana worshipped.

[@cassidyarnold505]

I think it’s because monsters will just reform after a while

[@dhruvhari7189]

​@@cassidyarnold505 I'm sorry... are you sure? this feels percy jackson-ish, and that aint it chief.

[@johnvarner5536]

@@dhruvhari7189 Yeah, that’s actually how it works. Monsters who die get sent to Tartarus to essentially “serve a sentence” and eventually get out. It’s their way of having Wonder Woman kill a lot of her enemies but still be considered a good guy. The ones she kills basically get sent to magic jail.

[@anubis7457]

A lotta people are just uncomfortable with heroes killing in general. Wonder Woman is seen by many as a female equivalent (similar in relevance and iconic power) to Superman. Wonder Woman isn't Superman though, so she isn't beholden to HIS values. She's a warrior, through and through. And even Superman, if he absolutely MUST, will make the call, but he usually gives up being a hero if he does.

[@corvistein9016]

If it's movie maxwell then it's because he has a kid and it's pretty easy to say well he did do a war crime but in the end came around and can be with the son he loves. Movies just have that power where if someone cares about something we can empathize with then we are more sympathetic to them

[@yoyoboy87]

You know, I can’t help but think about two examples of truly evil characters in recent media. Jack in the new Puss in Boots movie really has no reason to be as horrible as he is. He’s just a selfish, spoiled, arrogant, bully that got outshone by a magical puppet when he was a kid. Even Jiminey Cricket eventually realized that Jack was “An Irredeemable Monster.” Yet people love Jack simply because it’s fun to hate him and how much extra he is. There’s no moral gray with him, he’s just a selfish man who wants all the magic to himself so no else can have any. Another example is the Briarwoods and their cronies from Legend of Vox Machina. Realistically, they had no real reason to take over Whitestone and kill most of Percy’s family. They just did it anyway. So when Percy starts his revenge quest, there were only two times that the rest of Vox Machina stopped him. The first being when his vengeance was misplaced onto some innocent stooge who was essentially the Brairwood’s bag boy. The second time was when the target was more valuable alive for the moment. Vox Machina would eventually end up regretting this when she pulls a fast one and puts the party into a deadly trap.

[@judeblack4360]

I mean, the Briarwoods did need to fulfill their pact with Vecna via the ziggurat, but they had absolutely no reason to act as awful as they did. At the end of the day, they were just unapologetically evil, which makes it cathartic to see them lose.

[@chimeraarts2372]

Hands up if any of you had bullies that tried to feed you a sob story and you never bought it for a second

[@A_Sterling_Rose]

Some girl tried to bully a former friend of mine during high school(legit, I can't remember either of their names). The mere fact I was able to talk back to her was enough to make her cry. When her friends tried to make me out as the bad guy, telling me that the bully was going through some issues with her family, I asked them why I should give a shit. Having no answer, the girls sulked away. That bully and her friends stayed far away from me and my former friend after that, so I guess honesty is the best policy 😄

[@chimeraarts2372]

@@A_Sterling_Rose I applaud your boldness. If bullies don’t care for your feelings why should you give a solitary fuck for their’s

[@A_Sterling_Rose]

@@chimeraarts2372 Eh, my boldness has its perks and flaws. 😄

[@Liandra24]

No, but if they did I would have torn into them demanding why they can’t be nice and quiet like the rest of us who are also going thorough something, they aren’t the only ones who are dealing with shit and they don’t have to make people miserable with them. I think I would have gone feral if they gave me such bull.

[@defalttheloner]

I didn't but some people tried to argue about him to me later

[@mosesmm5473]

For me, the issue with these kinds of stories that just keep adding on the evil but refuse to ever allow the villains to pay for it is that it removes one key thing that even science has a hard rule; for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Say your villain truly believes what they're doing is right, that doesn't change the fact that it's not and they NEED to be held accountable for that, to show them and others that bad actions will lead to consequences, it's the entire point of a criminal justice system; you commit a crime, you do the proportional amount of time. If you insist on thinking that there's more to their actions, that's fine but often those same people ignore details that they don't like. During the Nuremberg trials, multiple experts evaluated the NAZI high command and concluded that they were fairly normal people, they weren't blood drunk, pure evil, spawns of Satan or mentally insane, they were normal people who had the capacity to realize that they were doing wrong, but who chose to do them regardless, with many going to the gallows unrepentant. But this is uncomfortable so rather then accept that everyone has the capacity for great good and evil, people create fantasies and excuses to never have to confront that, and get violently aggressive when told otherwise. It's why Rommel gets so much praise as despite being a Nazi commander, he frequently ignored orders to kill Jews and other undesirables, treated POWs with respect, and didn't work his men like animals and even tried to assassinate Hitler once he become clear he was a madman that would lead Germany to ruin. People like to say he's proof that the Nazis weren't all bad, but really he's proof that even a Nazi is still capable of recognizing when they're in the wrong and choosing not to do evil.

[@mattpluzhnikov519]

Fiiiiiinally watched Jojo Rabbit the other day, and the part of this comment where you go into detail about Rommel reeeeeeally resonated with me. (If you've seen/remember the movie, I *think* you'll get which character in particular reflects this sort of ~too far-gone for redemption, but still capable of being NOT 100% evil~ mentality/headspace. (Kinda feel like there's waaaay too much in the movie for me to sum it all up here.))

[@storymaster164]

OH MY GOD, Lily. I could kiss you. I have thought this shit for freaking years and the problem I keep seeing is dumbasses who still think that when I say SOMETIMES people are just evil and need to die, the use their amazing power of selective hearing to think I said ALL villains need to die. People always seem to miss the fact that the wold being painted in shades of grey also means there is still some black and white once you break things down.

[@peridrawland5955]

Normalize simping for characters without stretching justifications for their actions. Evil/horrible actions? Yes. Cool/attractive/interesting? Also yes. It's fiction, just because you like a character that does bad things it doesn't mean you align with their values or actions. I think people want this "morally grey" area so bad because they're afraid of being judged in the eyes of others, specially in today's social media.

[@Lily_Orchard]

As I said in my most recent video regarding a villain: "She's such a bitch! I love her! I hope she gets beaten to death with a rock!"

[@majortightpants400]

28:54 Yes, GOD, thank you for saying it. Yes yes yes. EDIT: I think people, especially in fandom, tend to confuse explanations of cause with justifications by reason. I genuinely find antagonists and villains and more specifically, flawed characters, to be fascinating. But fandom seems to have this really, really bad habit of not understanding that good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things, any one of us is capable of that, but *people should still be held accountable for doing the bad thing*. It's also led to extremes where people can't understand that there is such a thing as personal growth-- BUT! --personal growth is also something that you have to WORK. FOR. People like Zuko but forget that his "redemption" came from his own personal work and from the choices he made to get b e t t e r. He had to work for it. Fandom needs to learn that: 1. Exploring why someone might've done a thing is not an attempt to absolve them of that thing; 2. Understanding why someone might've done a thing is not an endorsement of that thing; 3. "Grey areas" are not, "this is Schrodinger's morality" but rather, are the concept that people are dynamic, layered, and complicated. 4. People being complicated doesn't mean the bad shit they do isn't bad or that they shouldn't be held responsible. My mother is a horrible human being and a toxic wastebag of a person. She is also mentally ill. It's not ~ableist~ of me to hold her accountable for her actions. She is not a precious meow-meow because she's lived a hard life. The "GREY" in this is that I can understand it's possible to have sympathy for how she's suffered in life, and still feel entirely justified in my decision to entirely cut her out of mine. Part of growing up and gaining maturity is learning to accept the complexities of people and learning to try and make peace with that within yourself--it doesn't mean that you owe anyone forgiveness or absolution or patience or anything at all.

[@chicks_before_dicks]

Great explanation. My paternal grandmother was a bipolar case that traumatized my dad so badly that my mom deliberately waited until she died of brain cancer before having me. She also had scores of health issues (thyroid issues, allergies, and the like) that discouraged my grandfather from leaving her. My mom explained it in a way similar to this; paraphrased, it basically means "If you leave an abuser, you don't leave them because you hate them. You leave them because you love yourself more. You recognize that putting up with their behavior is at odds with your own happiness and peace of mind."

[@moonlitlaurel8103]

Modern' stories are so frustrating. People 'demand' grand worldbuilding, serialized storytelling and high stakes because they need an excuse for liking animated shows or videogames (Aka "it is not just made for kids") How do you create these high stakes? You make the (male and white) villain do extreme, irredeemable stuff, of course. Make sure to have some banter with the hero beforehand or sprinkle them throughout the story. Give them as much screentime as possible. (because he is so cool and mysterious, you guys!) so the hero has a strong motivation to kill him. (Warning: some people might read s*xual tension into their scenes together.) First concern: "But wait, isn't killing the villain like... bad? Didn't the bad guy do it all the time?" (Moral Highground philosophy.)-> hero cannot kill anyone. That would make them unlikeable. Next concern: But isn't it also bad to let the villain just go free after everything they did? (And the show explicitely showed in great detail?) Solution: Just give the villain a tragic backstory and make a quick redemption. Our hero doesn't have to make their hands dirty and nobody is acting irresponsibly by letting a dangerous individual just go without facing consequences.( except that is what they did but...) Tldr: people want 'complex' characters and stories but don't want the hero to 'promote' necessary violence for change.

[@Cuchufreta]

You just write what I have been thinking about modern cartoons lately, especially the part of the excuse of the complex worldbuilding so they can show cartoons aren't just made for kids. Isn't that like very immature? I mean wanting to show that you are mature because you watch "deep" cartoons ends proving how inmature you are. If you are mature enough you don't have to prove anything to anyone about what you like, you just watch cartoons because they bring you joy and that's all. And speaking from experience, maybe people perceive them as immature is because they only speak about cartoons all the time in a very obsessive way? It is like nothing more happens in their lifes

[@LiMe251]

How to make a complex villain without redeeming them 1. Interesting backstory that provides a reason but not justification 2. Villain tries to get better after being the villain for a while 3. Relapse into evil 4. Every time the villain tries to be good, have that villain become worse and worse until even they realize there's no hope for theirself and gives up on getting better before continuing to do evil 5. Retribution of karma in which the villain either dies or is resigned to a worse fate for all the damage they've done, no Redemption, just an inability to cause harm that the villain is unable to escape from and is, deep, deep down, relieved to be punished with.

[@Sireington]

I mean… Avatar literally got over this problem by leaving the villain powerless sooo

[@josephgrube]

Here’s my philosophy, if he kills innocent people, its ok to kill him. Why is that so fucking hard to understand? Its a simple fucking concept

[@crfstewarje]

@moonlit laurel So you think that if the villain happens to be a male and white, there is some "evil white man agenda" that the writers are trying to push? Sounds to me like you're reaching. Let's be honest, if the villain was black, you would probably complain that the writers are trying to push an "evil black man narrative". People literally did the same I mentioned with the black bullies in Wednesday, where they claim that the writers were trying to push a "black people bad narrative". Not everything is about race. Also, if you want something with great wordbuilding, stakes, good storytelling, etc, watch Arcane. Maybe some people are huge fans of epic fantasies, so they like grand and deep tales. Doesn't mean that they are looking for an excuse to like something, just because they have a knack for media that tells stories in epic scale. Maybe they just love seeing what the animation media is capable of.

[@abimaze4308]

The part about bubbling and coming out of stasis years later in shock reminded me of the Deep Space 9 episode where Miles lives through a 20 something year sentence that was actually just a few hours. The man came back from killing his simulated inmate that he believed was real, to his wife and daughter who don't understand why he's so different. O'Brian almost killed himself because he couldn't forgive himself for what he'd been through- all because the society that tortured him this way considered it to be "more moral" than imprisonment. The idea that "well it's not REAL, so it's a moral grey area"- NO, that's FUCKED UP and not a solution at all!

[@june-cz1cw]

Yeah it reminds me about how some people degrade fiction So the fuck what it stile affects the person ahole

[@Sorain1]

It was always Miles getting hit with it. Because people relate to the poor guy just doing his job.

[@noodrasan]

The grossest thing I've ever heard was someone tried to defend slavery in the past because it was "legal" and when I brought up the fact that sundown towns still exist qnd at first he went idk what those are then after explaining the horrid reality of sundown towns he went "eh"... like wtf how the FUCK do you justify this shit because "laws back then" but ya know it's fine to ignore anti racism laws.

[@Lily_Orchard]

His explanations are not the reasons for his racism, they're the excuses for his racism

[@decidueyezealot8611]

My biggest gripe with morally Greyness is that more often than not it just comes off as an excuse to avoid consequences. While they do every horror known to man under the sun, only for protags to accept it all and let by gones be bygones at the end...

[@assssaaasasass]

And then there's the protagonist friends who doesn't easily accept the villain and the protagonist ends fighting them or calling them out because "it's not right, they already feel bad for what they did and they don't need you to bully them", making the friends being in the wrong for not blindly following the protagonist naivety of forgiveness. 🤦‍♀️

[@decidueyezealot8611]

@assssaaasasass The author wanting the villains to live no matter what but not being able to write a convincing reason why.

[@assssaaasasass]

@@decidueyezealot8611 "we don't have good reasons for this guy to be forgiven but the protagonist of the show forgave them so you must accept since the protagonist carry the morals of the show and if you don't accept it you're in the wrong".

[@ricejuice8982]

I am currently in college doing psychology. When we cut out the like mass genocide (not redeemable obviously) and just talk about bad people, to a psychologist we *have* to see the reasons and we learn about rehabilitation, that no one is a lost cause. Some crimes are unforgivable murder, rape, pedophilia etc but even *even* then we have to say "how would rehabilitate this person" But shows and movies aren't about psychologists it's about people against people and fucking killing monsters that have done some of the worst shit is the best thing to do, why Batman never kills Joker is mental. But yea essentially I am somewhat conditioned to look at the why and not the "fuck you, you fucking prick and die" Even though a lot of the time that sort of reaction is totally warranted

[@robokill387]

"to a psychologist we have to see the reasons and we learn about rehabilitation, that no one is a lost cause. " then psychology is terrible then, because that's a completely unscientific assumption. Rape, pedophilia etc aren't possible to "rehabilitate".

[@jackiewagner3690]

​@@robokill387 I'm also studying psychology and want to be a psychologist. Psychology at its core is about understanding and helping. However, most good psychologist are able to recognise when helping is impossible. If someone is forced into treatment and you cannot get them to care, helping is impossible. If you cannot understand well enough to help, impossible. If they fundamentally believe that they have done nothing wrong and don't need to change, impossible. You are mostly right. The discipline at its core is good, but a psychologist who wants to help anyone and everyone despite everything is a bad psychologist.

[@egranger2128]

Happy I’m Watching this after The Owl House finale because I was very satisfied with Belos’s ending. It gives me joy.

[@jonathanjuarez5544]

Same, after so many shows giving their vile villains "redemptions" after they've spent so much time being extremely vile *glares at Steven Universe* it's nice to see a modern show willing to tell kids that, no, not everyone can or should be redeemed, there are lines that once crossed effectively shut down all avenues of redemption.

[@justanotherguy560]

@@jonathanjuarez5544 I think it works even better because of how toh tackles it. It says that love and forgiveness are incredibly important, but at the end of the day there are still people who will hurt or use you simply because it benefits them, and you’re under no obligation to put yourself in emotion distress or danger for them.

[@JDog2656]

@@justanotherguy560exactly. Like there are people like Zuko who are genuinely flawed and need help to change their ways, but then there are people like his father who genuinely wants to burn down the world and rule it. Some people just need help, but others are genuinely evil. Like Darth Vader vs the Emperor

[@RingTeam]

Same here. I think the writers of Starlight Glimmer need to realize that some people are just evil, and that's it.

[@vividdaydream1516]

It took this video for me to realize that not everyone has internalized the basic fact of "everyone has the capacity to do terrible things." Like, hello? Yin/Yang philosophy, "inside of you there are two wolves", Shoulder Angel/Shoulder Devil, "listen to your conscience" the list goes on!

[@jewelqueenwrite]

This was an excellent video for many reasons from breaking down why saying everything is in shades of grey just does the same thing of removing important nuance in situations, how bullies of all kinds thrive on petty power plays, and the uncomfortable reality of how people will do anything to admit they are not capable of thinking and doing evil, something that is especially relevant today as people are unwilling from to simply apologizing for screwing up to acting like they’re being persecuted for being told not to support terrible people. Goodness takes effort but it is more possible than people realize it. The ending of the genophage storyline at the end bookmark really warmed my heart even after all the heartbreak and tragedy because as much as evil people exist, there are people who actively choose to be good instead and it made me cry a little happy tears. Your video essays are always very insightful and interesting and this has to be one of the most compelling to date

[@KelpieMomma]

God bless centaurworld for killing the nowhere king 👌🏻 I hate it when people say he could've been redeemed. He literally started a multi-world war with unknown casualties and war crimes because he hated himself so much.

[@diamond13dog]

Finally! I found someone who brought that up

[@decidueyezealot8611]

Still can't believe people wanted to redeem that guy. Whole story full of tragedies and death he caused for selfish obsessive reasons and they wanted him to make friends and make up. Not one but two of the main characters are orphans because of him for Pete's sake 😭

[@eanna3781]

I never thought of it until now, but despite Tali being my favourite character, the Destruction of the Geth never did cross my mind. I always found myself sympathising with the Geth moreso than the Quarians, and I cried when Legion died and not when Tali. (I played through looking for every outcome I could get) And when it came to Mordin's death, I was not ok for a few days. He has one of the few redemption arcs that hit me harder than it had any right to.

[@andrewtripp6837]

As much as I liked Mordin, the fact remains that his genophage project was evil, even if the original one was understandable. Without the original genophage, the Krogan would have overrun and destroyed every other race in the galaxy - but then, instead of making any attempt to remedy their poorly-thought uplifting, the salarians left the krogan as bitter, violent outcasts.

[@brandonlyon730]

What Lily fail to tell was that not all Quarian’s wanted to kill the Geth, in game itself it showed digital memories of many Quarian’s wanting to protect and save the Geth but were gunned down by there own fanatic brethren. Even in the game’s date there were admirals who didn’t want to go to war with the Geth in the first place and were only forced to be other fanatical admirals.

[@sarabihernandez3213]

I'm reminded of a post that honestly took me a lot longer to accept than I would like to admit: By calling someone a monster and "not human," you're trying to separate yourself from this person by claiming no reasonable "human" would do something so awful. But they were. That human hurt someone, killed someone, tortured someone and you have that in you too. You are just choosing not to do it but you have that capacity to be the monster that only exists in your head. Nobody wants to accept they have the capacity for evil but like you said, give someone time and they'll show you who they really are.

[@hecklejack7726]

Honestly, I’d say that’s what “morally grey” is supposed to be, at its core.

[@TechBlade9000]

No true scottsman human edition

[@TheFirstOkiro]

There is no morally grey in the real world. There’s just evil and the unfortunate people who have to deal with evil. That’s the difference between fiction and reality. It’s why even George Lucas knew Vader had to die. There’s no world where someone like him can exist. Genocide is wrong. It’s evil. There’s no excuse for it. Great video, Lily.

[@cui8789]

Even Lucas stated that Vader could never truly be redeemed after what he did, which makes all the people arguing that Star Wars was always about redemption to justify Ren's hasty redemption seem even more baffling.

[@untitled-gv3qp]

@Darth Doofus I read a story not too long ago that sorta played with that concept. It was basically "even if the person could be redeemed they have nothing to go back to". The person would exist in a world where they burned every bridge and everyone else in the world doesn't trust them. You can't expect a known serial killer to find a good job or a spouse. No one will sell them a home because no one would ever want to live around them or have them ruining property values with their mere existence. There's no way to have people like that return to normal society or even try to make up for their mistakes. They have nothing and no one. especially if you need to strip them of their power just to make sure they don't instantly go back to what they were doing before. So it's cruel to try to give people who've crossed the line a redemption arc.

[@TheIllusiveMan11]

Is it evil to take food from someone to feed your starving family?

[@user-zz7cy1gc6v]

@@untitled-gv3qp this is what makes me feel icky in netflix's she-ra, i can somewhat understand catra being able to have her plase, even though it should have been a prison cell or at least be ostracized by some people, but what gets me is hordak. the man is literaly the reason there is 30+ yearlong war on etheria, the reason why catra even is how she is, because this is what he created, he destroed lives, cultures, we have no idea what even was scorpias peoples fate after they got took over, because we dont see any other scorpion people anywhere, the only kinda good thing he did, before the show's plot, was to take adora with him and not just leave and let her die in an empty field. AND? he gets a girlfriend and a kinda heroic momend, adora spares him from Primes grasp by basicaly showing the guy "hey this baby in your memory? this is me, remember u lowkay saved me there? so like wooo theres good in youooo" all because there is a "bigger trully irredeemable n zy so the smal one can go, he was abused and brainwashed by the sistem just like catra"

[@tenkenroo]

There is morally grey. You can do evil for good reason and purpose. Yes genocide is unequivocally evil but there are instances of moral greyness. If for instance I was leading a resistance cell against a fascist government and I purposefully instructed a regiment to go somewhere as a diversion for a greater goal knowing those troops would die I’ve done some wrong for the goal of good. It is wrong to treat humans lives as chess pieces it is good for the future of a people to destroy fascism. That’s the grey.

[@nevermore7285]

Honestly, I’m happy Belos was killed. While I wish he at least had his delusion broken and realized what a monster he was, it was more realistic that he died fully deluded that he was the ‘good guy’ and wasn’t a monster both body and soul. The fact he couldn’t comprehend that he had become everything he thought he was fighting was one of the strongest parts of his character.

[@izanblancoqureshy]

yeah I fully agree. I was partly hoping for an ending in which belos would feel "remorse" and beg for forgiveness but the characters would leave him to die anyway because he's too far gone, but this worked way better for his character

[@prowolf633]

all we need straight villains in animation again (especially movies) and the heroes don’t insist on sparing them all the time

[@barrettbirks1058]

shout out Jack Horner from Puss in Boots

[@wastelandgames9409]

I have no problem redeeming villains i just think it should stay as a rare or uncommon occurrence and the majority of the villains should stay irredeemable

[@Nathan-ti9pm]

Shen from Kung Fu Panda was one of my favorite villains he attempted genocide was given some sympathetic motivation of being betrayed and self perceived hatred from his parents and attempting to fight against his prophecy of defeat from a warrior of black and white yet even when Po a victim of his attempted genocide attempts to reach out to him and convince him to change Shen refuses and sticks to his choice of fighting against his destiny and pays the ultimate price with his life for refusing to change Nothing wrong with sympathetic villains but even after being given a talking to (Steven Universe) they’re most likely not gonna change and will continue on their path because otherwise what was it all for?

[@mohabalserafe3795]

​@@barrettbirks1058 hell even villains like Kai tai long half of DreamWorks villains are all evil to the very end

[@telekickin]

17:08 I feel like that's what everyone thinks when they say everyone is morally gray. A person who is flawed with both good and bad traits that might have a complicated backstory. But that's assuming that person, and humanity in general, is always stuck in this statis where their nature never evolves after birth. People grow and change and the choices they make define who they are. Its possible to change your ways for the better, but its also possible to continue to be the worst being imaginable. Its scary to think that theres no grander meaning than the simple fact that they enjoy the suffering of others, or because they can.

[@robokill387]

But that's the thing, not everyone is morally grey. Most people don't have complicated backstories and a mix of heroic and bad traits. Generally people are either generally decent though imperfect because nobody is free from bias, or a total shitheel that is prejudiced against people not like them and loves the privilege they have. Most prejudice and discrimination, too, comes from everyday choices and beliefs that everyone makes, not complex tragic backstories - most sexism is caused by societal male privilege, entitlement, and fragility, usually not because a gang of women murdered their family in front of them when they were a child.

[@gameinspection4999]

I'm so glad you said this. Morally Grey stuff is funny because a lot of it was in response to how "cartoonish" black and white villains were. But every villain trying to be morally Grey has now become cartoonish to the point to where you can't take it seriously. I find this interesting because the best villains are usually just evil and accept it. Frieza is genocidal space racist but he accepts that. He owns it. Not ONCE did toriyama try to give him some sad backstory to why he is the way he is. That's why I didn't particularly care for the Joker movie. It tried to make him "sympathetic" and I'm like that's not the Joker. Great video Lily

[@cassidyarnold505]

That is pretty relastic

[@orrorsaness5942]

Amen.

[@rahrouth]

the joker movie didnt try to make the joker look sympathetic at all. Seems to me like you watched the movie with your eyes closed. It showed how pathetic he was and how he geniunely struggled with mental illness BEFORE he became the murdering maniac.

[@robokill387]

@@rahrouth I love how you put "genuinely struggled with mental illness" as a reason for him not being sympathetic, alongside "pathetic".

[@robxholicfoxyfan8552]

Bismith even said she would have rather been shattered, because the pain of Rose betraying her and her losing all but two of her friends was that traumatic.

[@hh950]

The era of villain simps shall end. Welcome to the Big Jack Horner era, babeyyy!

[@user-ko9sw6gx4i]

I still simp fir Death tho

[@goldenhorse4823]

People still simp for objectivly evil villians. Death from Puss in Boots 2, Belos, Nowhere king etc

[@ConstantinDOSSOU-vy1zo]

​@@goldenhorse4823death from Puss in Boots 2 isn't evil. Litteraly all the movie shows ge was wright and the hero was wrong since the beginning

[@ramiroavila9985]

We cannot justify what tyrants did and what wicked man did they thought was right for them It's easy to call others monsters until we realize we were the monsters themselves

[@barkasz6066]

I think a lot of people confuse "morally gray" with "not a complete asshole to literally everyone all the time". They imagine that evil people like Stalin were just constantly cruel and unreasonable to absolutely everyone. And when they are charming or loving on nice to someone in person they mistake it for being a deep, complex, morally gray character. That's just not how it is. Movies also do the opposite: when the "villain" is starting to make too much sense, when they represent some sort of revolutionary idea or fundamental change to the status quo then they'll have them randomly start murdering babies or turn entirely unreasonable towards their allies just so that the audience doesn't feel too sorry for them. "Oh no we came too close to actually making a point about society, better have the villain torture kittens or the audience will realize the hero isn't really a hero."

[@barrettbirks1058]

Random rambles since I can't think of something big and smart to post. Damn you really lit into Cosmonaut. I enjoy his content, but I never picked up on those things at all. Good catch, thank you for that From the moment I saw the Collector, the idea of Belos being redeemed has haunted me. It wouldn't even be that hard, they can even shove it into the finally if they really wanted to. Have a flashback or whatever where Belos goes "I miss my brother" and boom, redeemed. Amphibia did literally the exact same thing, there's still time I listened to a Podcast a few months back where one of the hosts were playing through Mass Effect 2 for the first time and they were discussing the Genophage. He goes on for about 20 minutes or something about why he sided with Morden about the altered Genophage being a good idea. Then the other guy said "imagine 999 dead babies" and his argument shattered instantly, it was great

[@Lily_Orchard]

I like Cosmonaught, but when he talks about Star Wars it's like his brain was swapped out with a big block that says "Woman bad."

[@DraculaCronqvist]

Most of the times, moral ambiguity or things being "morally grey" is used as a justification for truly heinous evil. People use it as a justification because they are bad people with bad thoughts who do bad things, yet wish to feel good about themselves.

[@magiv4205]

Ngl, seeing that clip of Vaush arguing that the Nazis had a point in fearing jew supremacy absolutely made my blood boil. I've watched the odd video of his here or there and usually enjoyed his admittedly witty takedowns of stupid assholes, but thanks to this clip, I now know to never touch him with a ten foot pole ever again. Gross. Also, great video as always, Lilly.

[@Lily_Orchard]

A thing to remember is that it doesn't take much brain power to take down Nazis. Anyone can do it. It was always a mistake to treat this man like a real leftist just for being able to argue with someone with the brain of a 6 year old. This is all just as stupid as when Thunderfoot used to debate creationists and we all pretended that gave him clout.

[@magiv4205]

@@Lily_Orchard Yeah, good point. I stopped watching Thunderfoot ages ago, but now that you mention it, the two of them do really seem like the exact same kind of person, huh?

[@slowjamsliver7006]

@@Lily_Orchard That is a naïve statement. If that were true, then Nazism would be dead and gone, and full of idiots who could barely put on foot in from of the other. However, Nazism is on the rise, and Nazi Germany conquered most of Europe. Your statement is proof of the importance of the hours, and lifetimes, of research into understanding the rise of Nazism. It is easy to prove a Nazi wrong, but it is not so easy to take them down.

[@Lily_Orchard]

@@slowjamsliver7006 You're acting as if Nazism is something you can logic and reason out of existence. You can't logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into in the first place. Nazis do not become Nazis because they got bad intel. They become Nazis because they want to kill women, people of color, jewish people, LGBT people and anyone else who doesn't fit the cishet white male mold they think is 'better' You don't kill Nazism with logic. You kill it with violence

[@josephgrube]

@@Lily_Orchard Hell yeah, shove swords down Nazis throats

[@KerbalFacile]

About bubbling as a punishment - there's an entire series of books by Vernor Vinge on the topic, in particular "Marooned in realtime" which explores it as well as its converse: the existential horror of having been sent to the geologic future away from any remnant of civilization or anything you knew, and being left behind all alone in an empty world forever by people blinking to the future without you. Yes, it's f*cking grim. One character actually spends a lot of effort circumventing all kinds of safety measures in order to suicide because he couldn't take it. As for the rest of the video: thank you for standing for basic sanity. The Nuremberg trials should be a mandatory subject in school.

[@inamelzvoice]

So many video games (and medias in general) would have do the lazy (and quite disturbing) thing of making the Paragon choice "keeping the status quo" and the Renegade choice "disturbing the status quo"... even when the status quo is clearly the wrong and evil choice for the Krogan. Good thing the Mass Effect writers had a brain back then to not fall into that trap, so thank you for reminding me of that gem.

[@nataliestafford1535]

My God, those scenes you played from Mass Effect actually made me tear up. And that final clip made me leave not only with plenty to reflect on, but strangely enough, hope. It's just as you said-- yes, human beings are capable of great acts of evil. But Shepherd reminds me that we can be capable of great good too-- provided we can put our egos aside long enough to do the right thing. It's something I think I haven't done enough in my life, and something I need to do more. Not for my own sake, but for others. Thank you, Lily, so much for making this video. I really can't express my appreciation enough.

[@krankarvolund7771]

It's funny, I replayed Mass Effect recently, and on Rannoch, I was totally okay to let the Geth destroy the Quarians, until Tali killed herself because of it, then I reloaded and edited the save to be able to make peace between them. But yeah, after the mission in the server where you see what really happened during the Geth rebellion, I've never thought of killing the Geths ^^'

[@watchm4ker]

The thing is, early on, you're led to empathize with the Quarian plight, that they're an exiled people that have never been allowed to settle and Rannochform a new homeworld. And then you meet them. And then you find out what the whole conflict was about. And it would seem the overwhelming opinion is: "Oh. You really ARE the assholes, here."

[@danieltobin4498]

@@watchm4ker If you’ve come to that conclusion then you need to see their story again. There were Qurarian citizens who helped the Geth, it really just seemed like the government were the ones who wanted to exterminate the Geth. Condemning a whole race because of the actions of their government would be the equivalent of massacring the entire population of the UK for the crimes of the British Empire.

[@krankarvolund7771]

@@watchm4ker I'm not even sure they "weren't allowed to settle and form a new homeworld". Like, there's plenty of habitable planets in the galaxy, humanity had n problems to found a dozen colonies and we've arrived centuries after the Quarians. It seems like the Quarians just decided to stay in their ships and never colonize another planet until they get Rannoch back, they're just moping XD

[@Hell_O7]

​@@krankarvolund7771Wasn't it about their biology or something being weak? Idk, I kinda forgot

[@krankarvolund7771]

@@Hell_O7 They say something like that, but they do have several colonial planets, so clearly it wasn't an issue ^^'

[@TheQuirkyArtist]

It's difficult to define good, whether you say it's doing something for someone else's benefit or doing something that outright doesn't harm someone but however many people can make a clear cut outline on what evil is

[@eeveeongirl]

Great video, loved it. Never played those games but the story shared sounds very intriguing and heartbreaking. On a side note I don't understand why people constantly want a redeemable villain. I saw the newest puss in boots film recently and jack Horner was just a beautiful breath of fresh evil air, he wasn't redeemable and the movie flat out said it! It made the film so much more entertaining because the character just got to be a bad guy

[@ZarHakkar]

Jack Horner wasn't a redeemable villain, but the movie had more than him: Goldilocks was a redeemable villain, Puss became a redeemed hero, and Death wasn't so much of a villain as he was an affiable force of nature that could be negotiated with. The movie had a lot of angles going for it, which is part of what makes it so great for so many people.

[@reapergrimm8]

The thing about claiming that the world is filled with shades of grey is that some point, you WILL hit the opposite ends of the spectrum and find black and white.

[@barrettbirks1058]

30 minute shadow drop!? Lily you're the best

[@Estarile]

She really spoils us.

[@isaaicreyes2691]

Reminds of my favorite from Arthur Morgan " Some men are just plain evil there's no point in trying to explain it."

[@pablodonner5213]

Great video and a great reminder of how good ME writing was. Hope we can get to see you do a deep dive into the game in the future. I would love to hear your analysis of things like Liara's arc and her relationship to her mother or Thane and his son

[@Lily_Orchard]

I would love to do that, but I don't care about Liara

[@pablodonner5213]

@Lily & Mikaila Orchard Uh well that's a first for me, I'll admit I was never too active in the ME discussions but it always gave me the feel that people either loved or despised Liara with no in-between. In any case it would be cool to hear you do a disection of ME no matter what characters you choose to focus on

[@liamdenise246]

Yeah, see this is why Steven Universe really flopped for me.Initially it was interesting, the diamonds were very clearly not good and actually evil, such as having crushed gems, expiremented on them, used pearls as slaves, used all planets they came across as giant factories to make more and colonies, not caring for the life already there and planning to destroy earth by making a giant cluster of gems shattered emerge.Also, Lapis was literally damaged then locked away in a mirror by them, and when she called Steven she was terrified how bad the home world had gotten, and Peridots clearly had become slaves as well.Stevens whole thing was learning his powers and training for if the diamonds decided to wipe out the rebel gems and take earth, and we had lots of horror moments where the gems and diamonds actions caused problems for the people and earth.Including how even though Blue diamond was portrayed more nicer then yellow, she had no qualms with wiping out earth, saving some humans but keeping them as zoo exhibits.And the gems repeatedly showed even the good ones like Pearl look down on humans heavily. But no, then they cheaped out for nothing.

[@LikelyForgiven]

I don't know the writers personally, but to me the show reeked of that certain nihilist reductionist malaise that characterized the 2010s, where nothing has meaning, except perhaps discussing who is your favorite cute marginalized neurodivergent waifu beebo, and the ultimate origin of the universe is most likely "nothingness," "randomness," or perhaps a spaghetti monkey's boat hole. Showrunners who regard our actual universe with such pointlessness/meaningless/irreverence only ever end one way, as their own fictional universe inevitably mirrors that perception...no matter how hard they might try to inject it with substance & flair in spite of their deepest conviction to the contrary. In short, its presentation & plot is one of egregiously abject banality, almost like the "heartfelt drama" counterpart to Rick & Morty. Plus the kid is wearing sandals? Hard pass

[@flintfeatherr]

Seeing someone just flat out be done with Vaush’s bullshit was very satisfying. I needed that today ty

[@muamua101]

Having Lilly and FD drop such good videos so close together has been a roller coster me.

[@cheyenneguest4495]

Your argument about people being capable to doing harm especially if they think they're doing the right thing is a theme that Terry Pratchett continuously touches upon his Discworld books, especially with coupling with how ordinary people are often the ones to enforce these actions to regain control they feel they've lost or just don't want things to progress from what they know. A lot of his characters actively have to think about not falling into those same patterns when going through the plot of the books bc it does take effort to recognize those patterns and then keep it up as you can't stay stagnet or else risk falling back into it.

[@katdemon9]

Every time I watch a Glass of Water video I always end up learning something new or seeing something in a way I never thought of. Thank you Lily ❤️

[@BDTMack]

Great video! Some wise lessons that I'm seeking to internalise and use in my own storytelling. Thanks, Lily.

[@moniker4008]

I like to think to a certain degree we write problems purposely in an alien setting so we can properly see how we would technically see it if it were done by just humans alone. Often times people don't like it when we're shown the past or a truth that's just uncomfortable to hear, it makes them not listen, but when the same thing is shown in a costume of sorts it suddenly becomes a lot clearer than what it was originally. Sure it's not completely perfect but the message is still figured out by a majority of people like yourself. Often times the specifics of something are not immediately realized if it wasn't a human experience being experienced

[@robokill387]

That's the exact argument Tolkien used for why he wrote fantasy and why he thought it could be serious literature.

[@d.dflowers7635]

I dont play mass effect but learning about genophage was horrifying. I legit gasped. Far too similar to Madam Albright’s 60 minutes replies to starving children in Iraq honestly

[@piperjistic]

This is my favorite video so far this year, I love it, thanks Lily!

[@kennethsatria6607]

Man I really like this for pondering material. On one hand I can see the value of restraint, killing someone is a heavy thing with consequences mental and physical, sometimes you have to do so, sometimes its cause you want to, sometimes there is no other realistic choice and life won't give you an out (for all its significance Avatar has that convenient out as a reward for Aang's determination). For a heroic person that works to inspire and lead by example that might make them hypocrites, killing a possibly justified villain that has a point, but takes it too far cause of regular extremism or mental illness and trauma, or for an average antihero it might mean they will always have that option erasing the slim possibility of a stranger's redemption and or for someone to turn their life around, and good or bad they might even have people left behind. Or even if the hero or protagonist becomes too careless in dealing judgement I guess it really depends if you are ready to deal with the consequences and how it would ripple. Moral high ground is exhausting and annoying, but I think the moral and emotional impact of killing anyone should still be given its due respect unless they are total monsters themselves. I think I gotta try looking at this beyond morality. I wonder how these things effect people who have to pull the trigger, I know the logic in failing to save or protect, I wonder how it effects someone when they slay a monster so to speak I've seen way too many parodies mocking the no kill rule its become its own questionable extreme I know people are always itching to play vigilante or have an excuse to beat things up with no repercussions like a zombie outbreak or something, so maybe that in itself is worth pausing for.

[@Flaremc26]

I love how people say that bubbling your enemies in Steven Universe was ok, but when Avengers did something similar with the blip we all saw it as absolutely horrifying. Kinda hypocritical when you think about it.

[@karenroque3583]

Apologies in advanced. I should really be sleeping, but I wanted to get my thoughts out while they are still fresh in my mind. Back when I was hyper fixating heavily on Arcane, something that I found particularly irritating was how people chose to view characters like Silco and Marcus as being morally grey (i.e. making excuses for their awfulness throughout the series). They do this for a lot of characters, but I feel like these two were the most egregious, ESPECIALLY in the case of Silco. I want to go over Marcus really quick because his character is pretty simple and very few people actually like him. Despite this, a lot of people gave Marcus a pass for being shitty because he saved VI’s life by making Silco think she was dead the whole time. (And also because he has a daughter) But the asshole still put Vi in a prison, as a CHILD, to essentially rot away into obscurity. He may have thought that he was redeeming himself by saving one person after being directly responsible for his superior’s death, but let’s not pretend like Marcus wasn’t eager to put someone in jail from the moment he was introduced. And even if we want to focus solely on intentions, Marcus did not do this for VI’s benefit. He wanted to make himself feel better for fucking up so royally. He didn’t care about Vi, he just wanted to screw over Silco in the most cowardly way he could manage. Now it isn’t how he is characterized that specifically irritates me. It’s the fact that the writers themselves wanted their audience to sympathize with him by giving him a daughter in the Second Act. It just feels really cheep. Because I honestly didn’t give a shit that he died. Now, there are only a few weirdos who actually like Marcus and pretend his only fault was a lack of options. But that’s not the case for Silco. Nearly everyone wanted to believe that Silco couldn’t be pure evil because he truly loved Jinx, and only a few people who were actually paying attention knew that although he truly did love Jinx that by no means meant he was a good father. Problem is, even fewer people wanted to admit he was actively the villain of the show. But the thing is, even if he was a good father, that still wouldn’t make him any kind of morally grey. Being a loving father doesn’t mean you’re secretly a good person deep down and you deserves to have all of your actions be understood, it just means you love your child. Silco was still responsible for so much suffering in Zaun. People argued that his goal was a noble one because he wanted to make the Undercity an independent nation so they wouldn’t have to work under Piltover anymore. But even after Silco took control away from Vander, things only got worse because he purposely introduced a drug to the population to startup his rise to power. He blatantly exploits addicts and children to get to his goal. If we want to get personal, he lies to Jinx’s face about how Vi isn’t actually back for her, because he wants Jinx to become entirely dependent on him. (Also, let’s not forget he’s tried to kill Vi and her siblings when they were children as well). Silco is a HORRIBLE person, point blank. Does he have his reasons, sure. Does it excuse the millions of people who say Arcane has no real villains because half of them want to fuck Silco for some reason, Hell No. Like, I feel like I shouldn’t be so surprised about how many people thirst over Silco (and ship him with the guy he murdered and was planning on torturing). I feel like I’ve familiarized myself a good amount on the level of a person’s rancid tastes. But taking the time to really think about it, it’s a trend in fandoms that is genuinely alarming. And don’t get me wrong, I’ve caught myself being guilty of this too in the past. Perhaps not for characters like Silco and Marcus, but definitely having a bias towards characters that I personally find aesthetically pleasingly and wanting them to be written in the story a certain way because of how I feel about them. I could go on about how and why these biases manifested but this is already long enough. Please grade harshly.

[@royalteaanimations]

Completely agree. People often confuse mortally grey with simply interesting villains. There’s a good channel called schnee who does really good analysis of Arcane (who I’m sure your probably aware of), but there’s one video talking about how the villains are made more human. Their feelings and motivations are more complex than what one might expect. Even then though, again, that doesn’t excuse Silco’s horrific actions. It just makes them more interesting to watch. If people think Silco was so noble for getting the Undercity independence then I wonder how they felt about him giving it all up for one girl. Speaking of which we come to Jinx. I love her character, and she was absolutely manipulated, suffered from mental illness, and just put into one of the worst situations for someone like her. But, especially after the finale, that by no means justifies the deaths and destruction she caused, nor does it make them necessary in any way. I was like Vi for a while, thinking and hoping things could be better, but the season 1 finale (should have) shown everyone that Jinx really is a full on villain now. That’s what makes it a tragedy. That’s what makes it INTERESTING Anyway thanks for letting me rant. I saw another Arcane fan and couldn’t help myself lol

[@orbismworldbuilding8428]

Yeah, evil people can still love

[@hiro4830ify]

Finally someone on the same page as me. Absolutely 💯 on all fronts especially Silco. Did I cry when he died and empathized with his protection and compassion for jinx? Yea. Oddly enough the dude dropped gems here an there. But like you said…aside from his bias for ONE person whom he trauma bonded with and saw as an extension of himself…he was still toxic and evil. 21st century writing needs to stop deepthroating excuses and dodging accountability for “nuance”.

[@christianthrasher8677]

The mass effect part of this video I really like because I've recently started replaying mass effect again

[@scootusproductions8497]

In many, many ways I'm glad that I found your channel. There are so many things I never would have considered or thought of if not for being challenged to think by you. Granted I can still be very braindead, but this video also gives me more things to think about and adjust about my views of the world. So thanks.

[@whatslife7512]

True gray would be a man steeling bread from another family to feed your family.

[@agenteiegaming]

I always like looking at things from both angles in a story and yes I agree some characters are truly evil even in there point of veiw.

[@chadnorris8257]

In America we love guns, and we love violence, but some people think the act of killing is something good people should never ever do, even against the worst offenders.

[@chadnorris8257]

@@abam9813 I said you have people that think shows shouldn't show good guys killing people, no matter what evils they commit.

[@thebreadbunny1863]

Unexpected level of philosophy in a video mostly about mass effect. Really good video!

[@Law-gnome]

The "redeemed at the last moment, so that makes it fine" thing from Star Wars always bugged me. It was mostly ok in Return of the Jedi (other than Anakin getting to show up as an unburnt young ghost while Obi-Wan and Yoda show up as wrinkly old ghosts) because Vader died soon thereafter and there was not any big continuing arc in the movie about how Vader was really a good guy and should be forgiven. The books ended up flip-flopping on this quite a bit. Kyp Durron is the prime example. Some authors, like Kevin Anderson, took Vader's last minute redemption as "the thing to do in Star Wars", so he created Kyp and let him get off pretty much scott-free for committing genocide on a planetary level. Other authors, like Michael Stackpole, took a look at Kyp and said "what the hell, man? He murdered millions, and you want him as a major part of a group of galactic peacekeepers? Absolutely not!" "Last minute redemption" somehow being the same as "good all along" is such a stupid idea. People should have the opportunity to redeem themselves and change their ways, but that doesn't somehow wipe away all the awful things you did in the past. No sane person would ever look at a child molester and say "he did his time. I think we should let him babysit our kid".

[@Lily_Orchard]

The thing is, Vader was never redeemed in anyone's eyes except Luke's. People just think that's how Vader operated.

[@bab00shka48]

I feel stupid sometimes watching your videos. Because all of it seems like a such obvious thing, but... sometimes I have to have it spelled. Maybe because I'm autistic, maybe because since I was a child I tried to help everyone around me. I don't know. But thank you for helping me grow in some ways.

[@Lily_Orchard]

The real reason is fandom's mythology. Fandom works really hard to stop you thinking about these things

[@bab00shka48]

@@Lily_Orchard It wouldn't be surprising looking back at my fandom history and would explain why I never felt good in fandoms in general. They were just... too agressive with some of their stuff.

[@omarsanchez8956]

Exactly, I think a lot of people also twist narratives to their benefit. For example, people bi!&-ing about the Little Mermaid movie cause "it is not accurately to the story", and "they are not racist, they only want a faithful adaptation to the original story" (even though the original story didn't have descriptions of the character that portrayed them as white and the illustrations of the books came after). But now with that movie of the mummies where all the main cast are white (even though they are in Egypt and should be black), none of those people are saying anything. And that mentality of course reflects in the real world, now that the proud family made an episode about slavery in the USA people are whining with the "anti white propaganda", when it is in facts just facts that slavery and racism were and are a thing, and those people only care about historical accuracy when it is flattering to them, if not Why are they still celebrating Columbus day?

[@lorenzocassaro3054]

I know for a fact that The Little Mermaid remake is going to be a piece of crap, but that's nothing to do with the actress' skin I lost my faith where they announced that Melissa McCarthy was in it! 😖

[@scarletletter4900]

my brain did I thing, a thing it should've a long time ago if I'm being honest, it clicked that the Paragon and Renegade paths in Mass Effect were never actually tied to good and evil; the were responses to a system of laws, norms, etc that were in game that would prove themselves either to be just or injust. I think I will appreciate Mass Effect on a much deeper level from now on, and like find ways to apply this IRL. Thank you. It was never your job to teach me, but I learned from you all the same.

[@cadweirdness6133]

I feel similarly about how dnd players talk about curse of strahd. It's a dnd campaign you can run and is a lot of fun. And one of the big things is the villain Strahd who is the reason your stuck in the Gothic horror setting in your fantasy world. He traps you in his murder world in order to try and kill you for fun. So why do people think he is sympathic? Well they say it's because he loved someone. But, no he didn't. He was a prince with all the privileges that came with and was a conquer. Became obsessed with his brothers wife, murdered him, accidentally caused her death and trapped his soul, her soul and the souls of all the people in his kingdom to eternal torment in the shadowfell mists. (Reincarnation over and over again to punish him) and the only way out is to murder him and hope as many souls as possible make it out and are finally freed. He isn't sympathetic. He is a truly ghoulish bastard who you should murder over and over again until ever soul is free and then leave to endlessly repeat his mistakes in his hollow kingdom.

[@paulgibbon5991]

One of the things I did like about the subsequent Ravenloft book was that it really drilled it home how none of the Darklords are tragic victims (though they might think of themselves as such). They are horrible people who chose to be horrible people, and the book explictly tells you to, when designing a new Darklord, not to gloss over their victims).

[@cadweirdness6133]

@@paulgibbon5991 Oh yeah, I agree. It explicitly tells you how the mists of Ravenloft are the prison and punishment for these peoples actions in life. And that they could stop this if they really wanted to by stopping their evil actions

[@judeblack4360]

​@@cadweirdness6133 Only 2 Darklords have ever escaped from their prisons. Vecna became a god, so he sort of cheated. On the other hand, we have Lord Soth. He did a ton of introspection and said "yes, I am 100% responsible for my fall to evil and I own it." They let him out because he was no longer a tragic villain- he was just a villain.

[@griffinbaker3509]

@@judeblack4360 I thought they released Soth because he became so apathetic that the domain was no longer torture to him

[@wayfareangel]

So there was this movie called Demolition Man. In it Sylvester Stallone's character is sentenced to jail over the period of hundreds of years. He is frozen in a block of ice. This is portrayed AS A BAD THING. It's been years since I've seen the movie so I can't remember if it was even any good, but we've known for ages that things like 'Bubbling' are fucking inhumane. It's just killing someone in a palatable way. Palatable to the person doing it. In reality instead of a savior, Steven is more like The Shrike from Hyperion: piercing his victims on a tree of spikes to endlessly suffer. Seriously, the bubble room even kinda looks like The Shrike's tree.

[@beastsdragons]

This is one of the most educational videos ive ever seen in my left and it moved me thanks for making such a great video

[@SparrowsN3st]

I'll be honest, only started watching your vids and holy crap, you just spew the most honest stuff and you say it so confidently that I can't help but listen and that's definitely a quality I look up to

[@DragonGoddess18]

You're right about the "Bullies and Tyrants are the Same" chapter I saw it as bullies bully others because they feel entitled but what you said makes more sense.

[@nyatrue401]

Honestly, love this video, too many people think seeing Grey is some sort of mature realistic viewpoint. It's that one meme, about the Frankenstein being the monster, not being the monster, and finally the doctor Frankenstein being the real monster.

[@pridefulgaming]

I really needed this video. Omg I needed this.

[@Deman-sc4rc]

lily you always put the thoughts we cannot get out into amazing words, amazing vid as always

[@wisdommanari6701]

I really blame marketing on part of the villain redemption thing. For some reason Disney believes they can't sell toys of bad guys even though they are frequently the most popular and dynamic characters in a franchise. Like Kylo is a rip off of Jacen (reductionist I know but hear me out) and in that series of stories his sister Killed him. She did it reluctantly it broke her for a very long time to do so but he had done so much evil and was so powerful that there wasn't anything left to do. Even if they had managed to knock him unconscious and surround him with ysalamiri the rest of the Galactic Alliance would certainly want to put him on trial for his crimes and to execute him. Rey could have easily done the same even keeping that garbage soul mate nonsense. Because while Vader's story shows us that's its never too late to choose to do the right thing, Kylos Should have showed us that when people refuse to stop doing harm and keep choosing the wrong the the responsible thing to do is put them in the dirt.

[@chongwillson972]

@Wisdom Manari' eh still whished that didnt have kylo ren ruin other characters for his own story, like his love stroy with rey, and how luke who tried and did redeem darth vader, that kylo ren he hadent dont not much wrong needed to be murdered.

[@martinratagris]

I think that we shouldn't give up on people who consume and like these characters. It would be great if such "morally grey" characters weren't there to begin with but people can change how they see these stories. When I was a horny teen I was recommended an author, Elliott Kay, because he had written modern fantasy erotica. Yes, I read porn instead of watching it, we all were horny on our own ways. I went looking for a book of his and found Poor Man's Fight, and I thought this was and I toguht it was space sci-fi erotica. It was not but my teen mind was blown away with the action scenes and an ending that was Die Hard in space where the MC, who circumstances had forced him to enlist in the navy has to deal with a ship of space pirates alone. But when I re read it I could see how the greed of corporations had left him with so few options that enlisting was the lesser evil, how brutal was his basic training that he came out of it as a man that easily takes other people's lives. How he was trapped as a soldier between a corrupt government that starts civil wars on neighboring nations and sponsors pirates to kill and worse against interestelar corporations that enslave the citizens with a rig system where only they benefit. And in the latest book how he tries to have a normal life despite the PTSD and having to face the consequences of hus actions. It is not a perfect series but as I grow I can see more things there, not all of them good but new. I really want to believe that teens that look up to Kylo Ren will look back with embarrassment and realize they were wrong to defend him. I have no excuses for grown ass adults who try to defend him and similar characters tough.

[@Nomadith]

Massive respect to the clip from that stream of just... Knowing when to end it. Don't debate, don't pontificate on the bloody point, if someone is just going to parrot objectively incorrect info you're not going to change their opinion. He did the right thing and just said "we're done." Cheers for another good video Lily

[@Hell_O7]

If it's objectively incorrect, then won't it make his (the one with face uncensored) argument a lot easier to win?

[@marcushart4445]

I love your take and explanation of the genophage. I remember watching my wife play Mass effect and I asked her about it. She told me “yeah it’s bad, but the Krogen needed to be hit” and then she played Mordin quest and had a complete 180. The Genophage is like most terrible tragedies, something you only hear about and see the end results of, the krogen are broken and brutal in Mass effect (because they lost hope) but we only see it as a defence to the genophage. It’s not till we look closer do we see the evil of it all

[@edalynclawthorne5877]

There’s something that disturbed me from this video. In the curing of the genophage - if I heard right - you said that they performed truly atrocious experiments on volunteers. volunteers. The experiments would at any other moment be considered torture and rightfully so, yet they keep getting volunteers. It got to the point that those people thought: “Genophage OR unspeakable torture” AND CHOSE UNSPEAKABLE TORTURE!!!! That’s truly, genuinely fucked, and a testament of how ghoulish it was… and people still insist it was morally grey. (Looking into the lore it doesn’t seem to have been all volunteers but still. Also it’s called the Eater of Offspring/children, how the fuck does someone read that and think morally grey? Fuck, they named it that!!)

[@Sheechiibii]

People think it's morally grey because the Krogan birth rate requires some sort of birth control, or war, mass starvation and then slow death of all life would follow, and for some reason no other option for birth control appears to exist in the story except the genophage.

[@Lone.Willow]

Came here for an essay on cartoon villainy. Ended up a Mass Effect video. I ain't mad.

[@nevermore7285]

Yeah, a mistake I see a lot of people make with ‘grey’ is the difference between justifiable and understandable. Just because your able to understand why someone does something evil doesn’t justify it or suddenly make it grey.

[@Driftingsiax]

While I don’t agree with everything here it is important to realize the evil that anyone is capable of. Very well done and thought provoking video. Everything people do, they do for a reason, not always a good reason, or even a reason that makes sense, but every action or inaction has some motivation.

[@ziose0]

Didn't expect to hear an argument for finishing the mass effect series beyond all i know and have already played, despite having to restart and play from the beginning. But damn is found family storytelling, accompanied by good writing, damn convincing. I wish I could give your channel another like. Thank you for this thought-provoking video. Might be able to better say what I'd like to.

[@helenarosno]

people have different beliefs, but beliefs that are rooted in prejudice cannot be true because they are not based on reality. the horrors of bigotry and prejudice are terrifyingly human and far more destructive than any imaginary idea of the manifestation of evil. attempting to redeem the unredeemable is a well-intended endeavor, but doing so has the power to corrupt your own competence, your capacity to tolerate, and can even damage the lives of others. your ability to sympathize does not deplete the high cost of redemption. i also just wanted to say that youre one of my favorite video essayists. ive learned a lot about critical thinking, the construction of arguments, and the importance of social/global issues from you. thank you!

[@TimeCircleBlue]

Clarification: Are said beliefs the deciding factors of “the unredeemable” and in what quantities? What do you propose be done with this group? Or was the unredeemable bit a separate topic paragraph from the destructive beliefs part? Genuinely asking.

[@helenarosno]

​@@TimeCircleBlue i don't think that it's necessarily separate, but i also think that redemption is contextual. on a broad scale, (government level), individuals (and non-violent groups) cannot be policed on beliefs alone and require illegal action for state involvement. on a personal level, redemption depends on the values and tolerance levels of the people involved. when someone's tolerance for bigotry is low, they might consider people who hold prejudice beliefs as irredeemable regardless of whether or not they have committed prejudice action. however, someone with high tolerance for prejudice might not consider someone with prejudice beliefs as "irredeemable" until after that person has committed a prejudice action which harms them directly, (or in some cases, not even then). again, it depends on tolerance levels; this is what i meant when i mentioned a "corrupt capacity to tolerate" the most dangerous thing about prejudice beliefs/ideologies is that when groups are formed, they can turn those beliefs into action. this is why there are laws against hate groups. i hoped this cleared things up a bit

[@OracleSpeaking8]

Every show out there is trying to replicate Zuko and the 'villain redemption' he had in Avatar. But I think Mordin's story is the ACTUAL redemption arc that folks need to be trying to replicate. We don't need more Zukos, we need more Mordins.

[@bladeb2001]

I’d have to disagree ever one does do something for a reason…but people forget that a reason can simply be enjoyment .

[@vicentetemes5793]

Morality is kinda like maths, in that it can only be really analyzed in a vacuum. Moral dilemmas only provide you the data necessary to understand them, with no further context; fiction requires that context to create engagement, and reality is nothing but context. And the context often is that someone doing something to harm other people should be stopped, and that stopping would become more urgent the more harm is done; not really out of morality or ethics, but out of self-preservation and the preservation of your allies. I don't believe punching nazis needs to be considered as a moral issue; those nazis want to do much worse shit to way more people and turn others to their shitty ideology, so they should be beaten until they stop. Also, is that Crosscode I hear in the background? Didn't know it was high culture hours here.

[@prime_1577]

Talking to urdnot bakara in the med bay is one of my fav conversations in 3, just hearing how it effected her and her sisters emotionally and mentally really got me

[@FRIEND_711]

I don't fully agree with everything you said here, But you've made a pretty good point and I honestly enjoyed this video, sometimes I don't like watching your videos because it makes me uncomfortable. Hard to explain with words, and take that as you will, but I always come back because I always want to learn more and see things from a different spectrum. Thank you for that.

[@christopherdunn8767]

Mordin is also actually a great case study on how you can't make people turn around and they can only do it themselves. You can "debate" with him until you're blue in the face, making only the best of points, and not change his mind one bit about the Genophage. But once his situation leads him to a place where he is FORCED to confront the reality of his actions, and his rationalization breaks down before his own eyes, only then does he - CAN he - change his mind.