Is this how Blizzard saves Mythic+?

[@Lanathanel]

the best part about mythic plus is when i finish the dungeon and get 50 gold !

[@danny7694]

THIS! if you don't get gear just give us like 300 gold or something at least so it feels like you at least got your consumes out of it. If you're unlucky it can feel like such an unrewarding experience

[@osos5981]

Should be definitely more so you could get enchants and so on from it since there are people only playing this mode

[@artug92]

uhmm excuse you... its 56 gold... its big gainz

[@artug92]

@@osos5981 it should at least cover the cost of repairs man.... 56 gold is just blizzard saying fuck you to players

[@Sussurrus]

And no items you can use because you get all gear from vault. When you get something from mythic, you need to farm 10 more to get the crests.

[@jsingle5]

There's such an enormous gulf between playing with friends and pugging in mythic+. Playing solo (or without a full group) is a much more unforgiving experience. Whether through gatekeeping, queues, luck of the draw becoming another dungeon affix, or emergent problems with Blizzard's team-centric approach to content... it's generally harder to succeed (especially if you start pushing for rating) and there's an extremely high consequence for failure. Using depletion as an example, not only do you lose any time you might have spent trying to clear a key you bombed, you're also forced to grind through levels you might not need just to get back to where you started. Worse, your key might get nuked even harder in the process, and there's also every chance you roll a new key that isn't a dungeon you need even if you are able to recover. All of this can and will happen for any reason, be it a personal mistake, bad luck or another player griefing-for instance, a tank disconnecting during a pull can quite literally cost you hours of playtime. People have every incentive to bail on keys that look unlikely because they'll waste less time by getting back into queues faster. Adjusting rewards to encourage staying might help, but I think a bigger issue is that most dungeons just require too much coordination for pugs. Every single mob in a dungeon having 'stop this or die' mechanics leaves a lot of room for failure and heavily punishes even small mistakes (overlapping kicks for example), which pugs are very likely to make. You're also not given reliable tools to vet other players, which makes 'just bring people that know what they're doing' an unrealistic expectation. Like Quazii said, all of that over-emphasizes meta comps and jockeying over key history/rating. When the stakes are either you win and progress or you fail, get nothing and waste more time recovering, why would you bring anything other than the absolute best? As someone that consistently pushed 3200+ rating throughout Dragonflight, I've also experienced his point on there being no returns for players that push but don't hit title range. It's a lot of effort that earns you nothing and matters maybe a week or two into the next season. ...And that's to say nothing of the current key scaling, or the crests/gear changes. 98 +8 keys just to max upgrade an alt? I'm tired, boss. IMHO, M+ could do with a pretty massive overhaul. Also a huge fan of the bullion/dinar idea. Once HoF closes, why not let people have fun?

[@danny7694]

I agree with you on everything but I just wanna put some emphasis on the squish and what it did to people's mentals. Sure we all know a +8 now is like a +20 back in the day or some sht right ? but like you said, having to do nearly a 100 of those before you feel like you made any progress is just bad game design and people are just tired and want their egos stroked a little bit too. This is the problem with WoW and its core game design these days, they forget we still play the game for fun.

[@Sly_404]

This was true since the inception of m+. The major difference is how many people effectively hit a wall once they reach 12s and consequently stop playing.

[@tomashruby9349]

Honestly looking back, people already started to be quite a bit toxic towards each other all the way when this system was introduced in Legion. When community is toxic towards each other its not an easy thing to make people stop. From gaming I know of few games which tried quite a bit of punishment and I dont think I know about any which did succeed. On the other end if you tried to do it by incentives I would expect wow community to just game the system somehow instead of having desired outcome. You mention the pug being the only issue but I saw pug thinking propagate into guilds.

[@Snake_holiday]

I dont mind the idea of m+ strongly favoring pre made groups, but I think Blizz should implement some kind of interface for finding people to create an actual team. Similar to the guild finder but exclusively for m+

[@Defenestrationed]

@@tomashruby9349 Bro I remember people being toxic in like raid pugs when I first started playing in WotLK. I do think the nature of m+ leads to some more toxicity but I think overall it's overstated.

[@Alan-hb2ng]

How it can be fixed and how Blizzard can fix it are two completely different things.

[@ic3t3ap3ach]

😂 so true

[@Xerus35]

The problem is the players don't know how to fix m+. All the stuff in this video is pretty irrelevant. It shouldn't take more than 4-5 weeks for an m+ player to be fully mythic geared without raiding. Until that happens m+ is dead. Nobody is sticking around for 3 months for gear just to play the game. Also, remove depletion. Screw premades. Trying to target keys you need for score without a premades is pretty much impossible unless you have all day to play and infinite willpower. Whether people like it or not, wow is a lobby game, time to stop pretending it's not and make it work for the player, not against the player.

[@madrox1989]

The problem with M+ and retail end-game in general is that they are tuned for the highly competitive e-sports professional sweaty types. If you water it down any, there will be huge backlash with endless "total joke, too easy" videos and forum posts everywhere. Challenge can be fun, but competitive-level challenge is not for everybody.

[@Xerus35]

@@madrox1989 That's not true. Lower m+ are not tuned for sweaty players, they are easy. M+ would make no sense if it never got difficult.

[@oatfarls]

The healer and tank issue is so incredibly bad if you pug at all. People will literally drop group and leave before you find a tank. Blizzard has to do something to make tanks and healers more compelling and fun to play, because it's absolutely brutal to sit in queue for 20+ minutes and not get a single tank application.

[@agronnak]

20 minutes is being generous 😂

[@ClassicPuffin]

Tanking or healing high keys is stressful because of the ridiculous damage spikes and tank busters that it feels like every pack and every boss has now. If you lose focus for 5 seconds and you arent a paladin with a bubble, you're deleted as a tank in some places (Grim Batol, Siege of Boralus). Add into this that somehow dps in 8+ still can't kick casts or use CCs and expect tanks and healers to do everything, and yeah, that's why nobody plays them. And that's without even mentioning the massive nerfs to tanks and healers in TWW. M+ pugging even for low keys is getting extremely dead.

[@pettron3506]

@@agronnak Its not - had it already like 10-15times this season, that keys are bricked because we waited 15-20mins and nothing happened

[@agronnak]

@@pettron3506 i don't think you understood my comment. I play Hunter, if I don't make my own group it can take hours to get invited. It takes way more than 20 minutes to get my group going cuz someone always leaves while waiting for the last 1 or 2 members. On 10s, it's fine, but 12s or higher it's GG.

[@Catxukluth]

As a tank main the biggest issue is the ratio of stress to agency. You have to play near perfect at high key levels and yet it doesn’t matter at all if your team messes up. You don’t get rewarded, only ever punished. Tanks need a system like vengeance back to give some reward for doing well. A lot more people would tank if they got to do big damage. The elevator pitch of tanks right now is “you have a hard job that is very important and in exchange you get to do less damage and have zero control over if the group wipes”. No one starts tanking because they like it anymore, it’s purely for queue times.

[@enzy6434]

On my shammy alt that I was having fun playing, once I got to around 615 ilevel I took one look at all the gilded crests I had to grind to craft my gear and cap out and I immediately alt-f4'd and cancelled my sub - will come back next season possibly. No thanks - I'm not doing that grind.

[@pelaithol]

I don't understand this take at all. Do you not enjoy playing the shaman? If not, play a different alt. Do you NEED to hit 639 ilvl gear on your shaman alt to make it worth spending any time playing it at all? A massive majority of the playerbase will get nowhere near 639 ilvl on their main toon, but you don't want to play an alt at all if it's going to take you a lot of effort to reach 639 ilvl...

[@enzy6434]

@pelaithol I primarily run keys, my main is around 3k io (634 ilevel). The thing that keeps me playing later into a season is alts, and the challenge of getting them a similar score to my main. However I'm not capping 700+ gilded crests to be able to do so. No thanks.

[@pettron3506]

​@@pelaithol Cant speak for the comment creator, but for me. I play 11 out of 13 classes, and i have fun on all of them. But im not having fun, farming (as mentioned in the video) 98 +8 Keys for gilded crests, i want to hit a certain ilvl on my alts (like 630~, whats easy doable with hero gear 626+ a few 636 crafted) But, for this, i have to grind like 80 Dungeons at current point. To be honest, im not a "pro" - but i play the game a certain lvl. And im not having fun playing +8 keys, or even +10s are pretty easy/brain off - blast through Alot of classes, dont even do fun below a certain level, because mobs are dieing instantly Hey, im a shadow priest, i need ~20 sec to set up a pull, and then i have 40secs of my cd Oh man, that pull just went over in 20secs, because enhance, fury, ret, rogs, mages, dh or whatever, just blasts instantly If i have geared my main to 635 - let me catch up on my alts quckly I want to play them, but i dont want to grind out the same i did already for the last 12 weeks on my main. I dont have the time to do 100 keys on 11 chars Why cant i catch up in 20-25 runs on my main? I mean for blizzard: Yoooo i would play ALOT more, if i could play my alts on a "reasonable" key level - i would slam keys all day long But now i just do 1 weekly key, hope to get good gear on the char - because i dont want to grind 60 4-7 keys and then 100 8+ keys And for everyone thinkging "hey, if your so good, you can do keys with lower ilvl" Yeahr, sure, i tanked +10 on a 605 char, i dps'd with 610 in 10s, its fine. But be honest, would you invite a 605 char into 10? no, i would not do that either, so lemme catch up on gear nad have a fun in the game

[@pelaithol]

@@pettron3506 Blizzard are not going to balance character progression around someone who plays 11 toons. Love that for you that you enjoy playing so many different classes but you are an extreme minority my friend. You can't expect them to balance progression around the rate of crests you need to really gear up 11 toons

[@rakebangalang]

Bro playing on his “alt” so It means he already knew about the crest farm so he’s full of shit

[@Whalebelly2239]

Regarding Max comment at 23:00 - What they really did to M+ this expansion was to introduce a tier of M+ for pushers with the no affix thing while at the same time making the more "casual" levels of M+ harder than ever. There has never been a worse time to be a casual player in retail WoW than right now, and contrary to what people think, casual players are NOT WoW tourists that log on for 6 weeks and then quit a patch. Casuals quit when they hit their "wall", where ever that is. This tier, HC raid reclears are much harder, M+ is much harder, gearing an alt to a point where you can play it in relevant content is much harder. No wonder retail is dead.

[@lazytitan8038]

If you think being a casual now is harder then it was in classic you dont know what youre talking about.

[@godhand4209]

how is m+ harder for casuals now? Casuals legit get a free stat buff from those xalatal weekly affixes, which makes every 10-11 keys +2/+3 able. Im sorry but if ppl in 615/620+ cant time a +10 with the bonus stats, then idk, maybe its a pet battle angle instead.

[@Ouchmysauce]

@@godhand4209 Facts. I absolutely agree that there are a lot of changes that can be made to improve M+ right now, but at the same time there are so many plebs that can't get free myth track from all over the place anymore, and I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing. Might be able to find a better sweet spot than what we are at right now, but I don't think it should be reversed to DF levels either.. Timing 10's really isn't hard at this point in a patch. Or, it shouldn't be at least. If it is, maybe those players are pushing too high, too fast.

[@Tainted0ne1138]

His point on crafting should be 639 I agree with. Why does it cost more to craft an item that is 636 than it does to upgrade an item to 639. Whoever had the idea to bring back Theater of Pain over Halls of Atonement or Maw of Souls is an asshole.

[@milenkomimica4115]

it was already a pain (no pun intended) in shadowlands, imagine now with the current changes. And yes, more pain incoming.

[@maartenneppelenbroek]

Nah, vault should have better rewards than crafting can provide. Max is right about this, 3 ilvl per piece won't make or break anything. It won't make a keylevel difference.

[@Tainted0ne1138]

@maartenneppelenbroek I agree that crafting shouldn't be as good as dropped items, but then it should also not cost more than it does to fully upgrade a mythic track piece. 75 crests to upgrade mythic track vs 90 to craft doesn't make sense.

[@GotekSC]

​@@Tainted0ne1138 It does make sense. You need to finish 10s or kill mythic bosses to get a chance at a myth track item. You need to factor in the acquisition part of getting a myth track piece to 639, they don't grow on trees. You can craft 636 by doing 8's which were way easier than a 10 at the time they made the change for gilded to drop from 9->8. Just highly lower the Gilded Crest discount achievement requirements. Imo even 636 ilvl isn't enough. It would still take way too long.

[@Gunpoint1015]

personally hate halls, if we had the lantern I'd love the depths to be back.

[@Bookofscrawls]

You should be able to upgrade an item to 1 tier above with an item from that tier. By needing the item above you still have to do the content, but it's also not bad to replace a BIS item with a less ideal one just for ilvl. Can even lock it to raid content youve cleared to avoid the issue of turning like a heroic spymasters web into a mythic one without killing mythic court.

[@D2Mephisto]

valorstones are just artifact power, but without giving the player power for collecting the stones, unlike artifact power. it's just "artifact power minus borrowed power" which is just AWFUL

[@jgn1977]

The feedback they get and take is from 3000+ rated players. So because the top 1% of groups have healers with nothing to do, we need to change the whole tank and healer dynamic so its better for them. Well you see how well that worked out. Revert the tank and healer changes and you have a start.

[@Morotak123]

M+ blows balls right now Healing sucks Tanking sucks Dpsing ia ok The key squish fucked us

[@BirdmanG07]

1. I rarely pay attention to my valor stone count, it’s useless. 2. I tried to pug a key as a DPS on Saturday night (12/7) and couldn’t get into a group. Started my own and only had a 6, no tanks or healers signed up. Swapped to tank, instaque. 3. Crafted gear is made to feel like a necessity to some, and I haven’t had a crafted item since pre BFA. While this doesn’t affect me, the costs here are crazy.

[@therealsbdunks]

For Craft costs, not just crest costs to craft but also gold costs for mats. It was so expensive super early on this season

[@Clarketh]

​@@therealsbdunks the expensives are not blizzards fault though.. you make it sound like it is 😂😂 the players put the price on the mats 😅

[@hauthicus]

@@Clarketh and blizzard is the one that designs the difficulty to get the materials which directly correlates to the price

[@QPoily]

Filling up your own key is a problem even as healer/tank I've noticed depending on key level. I've seen tanks/healers sit in their own +9 key group for 20 minutes. You can try to assume they may have too high expectations for their group, but even as a DPS I've noticed it take excruciatingly long to get any player for my group.

[@txdmsk]

If you think crafted gear costs are crazy, step into PvP. The PvP socket costs are astronomical. Why? Blizzard wants you to buy tokens.

[@Ziir93]

I'd still like to see a flat % increase in crests earned depending on how many weeks worth of crests you have not farmed. Like if you've missed 5 week's worth of crests, you get 500% increased crests until you've gained the 90 from that week, then it reduces to 400% increase in crests.

[@Avallore]

What sucks is coming back to WoW late.. and being SO far behind it's not even worth trying to catch up half the time in m+. The requirement to get gear upgrades done is just insane.

[@Xfacta12482]

You can literally get caught up faster than you ever could in WoWs history.

[@jorembo4941]

timewalking to get 80, 1 hour story to get a delve ready gear set, a few delves and you re ready to go. Also you can buy gear on the auction house if you have gold left. But if you have time 2 delves a weak give you one 616 vault slot

[@odins.outlaw0711]

To be fair, its not fair to the people who were playing from the beginning of the season and put in the time investment for someone to join in on the season last minute and be on par with them. I understand it sucks and I get the fomo. But i did put in work this season to get to a high ilvl doing M+ and Heroic Raids and i dont want someone who didnt do the work to be on par with me.

[@Rayngood]

why do people forget alts exist? you can play with anyone at any time. being behind doesnt exist

[@toemasmeems]

Hate to say bro but…skill issue 😂

[@makangel7]

ive played this game for years. its the first game i ever played and been at it since, either on private servers when i had no money or now that i can afford it. i always have pushed m+, pushed for aotc and even tried mythic raiding when i had a good guild. And let me tell you, its never been so hard to actually find a group of people with enough braincells to get through a +10 or killing queen on hc. the content its not even hard, its finding people that arent braindead whats hard. and i can confirm that being from a non NA server, it makes it hundred times harder, just because people from my server are deadbeats that cant press 2 keys on time doesnt mean im like that too. its become increasingly frustating, not being able to progress and on top of that facing this ''server racism'' leaves me with two options: 1. canceling my sub 2. transfering to a NA server and playing w 300ping just to not get invited for not having aotc on that character. whatever no ones gonna read this but i had to let it out

[@jethrodark2372]

We have those on NA servers too oof.

[@tecnicaaa]

although the Crest capped has been removed. the quoted 98 dungeons to get to capped crest assumes you will time all your 8+ dungeon keys. What feels bad is getting 5 crests for completing a non timed key. Timed and not timed keys should just give the same amount of crests and it should be at least 15 and not 12.

[@drakedbz]

the reason the "fix" for challengers peril wasn't great is that all it means is you're doing the same thing as before, just +1 key level. Deaths are still just as punishing, you can just do one level higher due to the extra 1:30 on the timer.

[@sammehtehdestroyah]

I mainly do M+, and I mainly PUG it cuz I have like, one friend that plays. Did a ton of M+ in Dragonflight, but the difficulty changes in TWW made grouping with randoms awful, and now PoE2 is here so I'm probably done with The War Within unless I hear that a season goes exceptionally hard.

[@eliotness107]

I spent 2 months grinding on my pres evoker m+ and raids, hard every week and im still not BIS geared on my main, not talking about my alts that are FAR FAR away from being BIS. I grinded gold for hours and hours on end 2 weeks ago and barely got any gold to even afford one crafted item, and CBA doing 100 mythic+ dungeons to cap gilded crest for crafted items. No im not doing it. PoE 2 could not come with early access at any better point then now. Im not even going to cap vaults anymore, ill just log on couple hours to raid with the guild and CYA next week. Usually this is the point i unsub from the game and come back next patch, we will see what happends but im leaning towards it. They just straight up made M+ harder, but at the same time less rewarding.

[@matrix255]

What exactly were you grinding? Mining and herb still yell like 30k/hour and that's something you can do while watching Netflix. Farming cloth and leather are also good alternatives where you can make 300k+ if you're willing to spend the time. The more expensive stuff is usually weapons and plate gear, everything else is super cheap. I geared my alt priest like two months ago and spent like 75-100k in total and crafted like 5 pieces including the weapon.

[@ic3t3ap3ach]

i did 1x 10 on my main and im so fucking done with m+ in s1. only need vault loot now and yep better play other games at this point. m+ means minus gold and its literally not worth

[@MrSyltphademus]

15:00 One thing they could do is make it so that the bullions drop at a 'level' relevant to the content you're doing. So if you do LFR, the bullion you get can only do LFR pieces. If you do Mythic, you get bullion that can do Mythic pieces. You could make M+ scale similarly so you aren't forced to do raid either, maybe make it so you can trade your vault for a bullion instead as a pity system. If they don't want to add 4+ new currencies, then make it so that higher content drops more. So LFR can only drop 1 a week, but Mythic can drop 4, and Mythic pieces need 4 bullion to buy. So the LFR player can buy it in 4 weeks, while the Mythic raider could get a piece a week or something.

[@mrbenoit444]

My idea for the vault is something similar to mop and the charms system. When your vault comes you can reroll the items that day with the currency and maybe you can gate the tier by number of tokens if they want to be strict, but using the currency for more than sockets needs to be considered

[@PowerInfusion]

The grind doesn't feel bad on our mains, it's our alts or if you end up starting late in the season that's the problem, blizzard needs to understand that people love alts, what they don't like though is doing another full grind on each alt. Missing months of vault drops already puts people drastically behind, there's no reason to have artificially difficult grind for people to not even fully catch up. Alts should be super easy to manage, blizzard wouldn't see such drastic player drop offs if they could easily have alts.

[@zeitz4473]

disagree i can literally not get enough valorstones on my main. Im just farming +8s for easy valorstones. At one point i switched to just doing +2s for valorstones just for speed. I am not even doing content for gear. Im just grinding valorstones. Even been farming normal raid and LFR aswell just for valorstones.

[@gollese]

@@zeitz4473 Strangely enough, i havent had valorstones issue on my main. But on my alts. Had to edit, i dont do alot of open world stuff anymore either so. Not farming valorstones WQs etc.

[@juviachan9963]

The grind feels bad on our mains too. Especially if you start late because of job (or whatever reasons). It's almost impossible to catch up to the early beginners, particularly if you are not playing full time, even more so, if you want to play dps and not being a healer for once.

[@txdmsk]

Alts ARE super easy to manage. You should be in 610 a few hours after dinging 80. I did that multiple times. I play all classes in the game. You only need higher ilvl if you are trying to push score.

[@PowerInfusion]

@txdmsk it's cute that you think 610 ilvl is good

[@zzz3zzz]

I think having the jump in difficulty from an 11 to a 12 is hurting player retention a lot. Many players hop in a 12 after breezing through 11s, fail it, and don't try again after. the linear progression from keys isn't as clean as it once was. Less players are willing to try keys above 11s at the moment, so its making the player finder for those keys much worse.

[@Zwow007]

You know what would actually cook for the great vault? If in the raid and m+ row you get to pick an item that has a higher probability of showing up in a vault slot. And every week it doesn't appear that probably goes up by like 20%. So after 5 weeks if you were just unlucky you would get it 100% at the highest track you've unlocked for the week. Raid row would only allow you to choose from the bosses you've killed and m+ row would let you choose from the loot pool for every dungeon.

[@Ferdawoon]

I can see them gating tradeable Valorstones behind the achievement for 2000 rating or evern the 2500 rating, so that you cannot really level 15 alts to funnel Valorstones to your main, but once your main is geared enough to not really "need" Valorstones you can. It will allow you to gear an alt faster by funneling, or even to send some Valorstones to your main when you get a good Myth-track item in the Vault but you just upgraded something else and you are out of stones.

[@gooseg3822]

1. graveyards at every boss in raid and after every boss in m+ Blizzard should waste players time and releasing shouldn’t be a skillgap 2. change M+ scaling to 10% dmg and 20% hp per level 3. give keys 3 charges before they deplete -> game 100% better

[@Dulee11]

2nd thing u mentioned doesnt make sense. Ull still hit wall at ur current % key lvl while good player will do more then you still.

[@kel1770]

Also number 3 doesnt do anything really. Same % of ur keys are going to be io or hw mathematically.

[@stevenhs9773]

I love your idea about giving keys a charge for depletion. I think one charge is a good compromise. Teams can use the extra charge as practice, as 'warmup key', or as a backup in case of dc, afk, wrong gear, wrong talents, etc. Can only imagine how many keys have been depleted over such silly reasons. The extra charge is a great way to cover for that -- especially in a pug setting.

[@Vittrich]

@@kel1770 if you time a key, give it +1/2/3. if you dont time your key, lets say a 11 Mists, you get a new dungeon 11 key and if you dont finish it, you stay on 11 Mists until you finish it. thes need to stop punishing people for leavers, its one of the worst things in the game. i cant remember how many times the person who f'ed up wont admit their mistake, blame others and leave.

[@billabong5366]

So if we kill Machinists in stonevault and then we wipe on Skarmorak, we spawn all the way at the Machinists? Or we wipe on the last boss and spawn at Skarmorak?? Dungeon respawns have to be nuanced based on the dungeon, the only dungeon where you can even say runbacks are an issue this expac is COT, and even then you can mount so its not the end of the world. Quazii specifically mentioned GB in his example, which is a dungeon in which you spawn at the boss you last killed. Everybody always says "respawn point at boss" but never actually stops to think whether that's even right.

[@jimberry5521]

Quazii is the savior we never knew we needed

[@dbmoose]

On fixing tank deaths being a wipe, you pretty much either need a true passive cheat death mechanic on each tank (maybe with a 10 minute icd) or you need some node which drops a guardian (like an earth ele) which taunts all mobs after character death for like 10s.

[@Arithawn84]

Ahh Quazii react video

[@themInterwebs]

Honestly worth just watching the original video

[@Arithawn84]

@themInterwebs yep I watched it yesterday, just gonna give this a view count for Fronks work.

[@burkles4456]

Quazii responsible for me not being completely trash.

[@Dinnky13]

Idk if it'd help--since there are a lot of fundamental issues. But another way to potentially get more people to play healers and tanks is to increase the number of specs that can fill that role.

[@Benganboy1]

True, but in the same time blizzard already showed that they cant balance all the current specs over all the different playstyles. And have a hard doubt they will do a better job introducing more speccs.

[@Dinnky13]

@ oh 100%. Definitely need to fix baseline issues first. Would just love to see more options for tanks and healers Cuz u think more people would play them if there were more options.

[@jgm877]

I think the crests system is very inconvenient too. They could either reduce the currency type or change those threshold keys (e.g. 7 vs 8) not be a 90x multiplier cliff. It makes certain key ranges super dead because who would do a 7 for 15 runed just to help ‘push to 8’ when they could find a different group for an 8 that is barely harder for 90x the rewards.

[@WilWeeks]

The hyper lethality just makes it so miserable to heal. I used to have fun trying to do 15ish keys but the past couple years have just been pretty shitty as a healer.

[@Lexslayerpride]

41:40 actually is, its a big thing im management/business strategy to clearly outline if your response is meant to be taken as constructive criticism/true feedback. If you are on the other side its very easy to take every criticism as an "attack" and dismiss/downplay feedback. The recommended stucture is WHAT is the problem, WHY does this cause impact, HOW could this be solved. I don't know if Quazi comes from a business/tech background but this might be why. Thank you for coming to my big business ted talk

[@jessejames9674]

With it costing a full weeks of crests it definitely should be 639. If you do it optimally you can get almost 2 items to 639 in one week.

[@ic3t3ap3ach]

if game devs wrote that tank bluenotes its even worse. they did the opposite of what they announced which means they are incompetent. so miss communication is probably the best answer and m+ should be like delves. you go to the dungeon select a difficulty and done. no key is needed for that 🤷‍♂️ you play what you want but you still need all dungeons

[@Septemberl4d]

Token system. Its easy as that really. Tokens you just build up through activity of raid and M+. Each raid boss gives 2, 5 for the last two raid bosses depending on the difficulty, or you can have a difficulty version, so 3 different currency similar to crest. But to remove bloat you can just scale these currencies depending on the rank of gear you want. So like 300 tokens for a mythic raid trinket and so on. With different values depending on the slot. Then you up the tert rate for drops from raid and M+, so gear that drops from bosses is still valuable or more than the token versions. This would allow you to keep people playing content like raiding and such but also have a way for M+ only players to get that BiS they need over time. You can even have it at start of a season, as you could just make it take at least 2 weeks to get an item, CE is normally done by 2 weeks anyway and people dont reset bosses so you get less of these tokens for world first people since they are not going out of their way to farm both heroic and prog mythic raid during those weeks. Or disable it for first two weeks and start it after that. IT wouldn't impact the race at all, it might speed up the HOF but not by a drastic amount it would just put who normally get it earlier in the season rather than later. Token system for M+ should be a thing too, using crests maybe to out right buy a item you want would be really cool system. Balance the cost for it, then uncap crests. So like you want a Heroic track Ring from COT? Yeah spend 120 crests of heroic grade and bang you get your ring. You will still need crests to upgrade it. So it incentivizes people doing set content longer. The funny thing is people talked about delves ruining the gearing experience but lets be honest the gear from delves only helps you get some main stat and Stam, a lot of the pieces from delves give bad stats.

[@TheLeechurch87]

Played classic for almost five years and came back to retail after watching this tiers world first race (awesome job btw). I watch some classic streamers and find myself always watching those Hardcore classic moment videos but I have no real desire to play classic again.

[@wm1573]

The leveling journey of classic is cozy from time to time, but the end game (If you even get there) is an absolute snoozefest.

[@txdmsk]

Classic is for nostalgy trips and for idiots.

[@H41030v3rki110ny0u]

​@@txdmsk imagine replaying a video game you like... Only idiots do that!! Why would I ever play through Super Metroid, BioShock, or Dark Souls ever again??? Surely it's because I'm an idiot fueled solely by nostalgia (even though I never played WoW until 2011 so don't have vanilla WoW nostalgia).. certainly not because the gameplay experiences are timeless classics that are fun. It's because I'm an idiot!! Thank you for your insight.

[@dothackmultiweapon]

16:45 when Max is talking about introducing a sort of dinar to the vault with the currency from it. Playing devil's advocate, what is to stop someone from just doing the lowest content available for the vault and then using the currency for good gear?

[@LATHSPELL70]

The point of the HoF note is that the last “hardcore” competitive thing happening regarding the raid. CE guilds welcome nerfs and changes that make the grind easier, but adding a Dinar system or introducing gutting nerfs (much like the Queen nerfs) dilutes the HoF race.

[@rwayle]

I like the freeze concept at about 17:00, few weeks ago I had M Tier Chest and Gloves in there, took chest because of higher stats and every vault since then has been garbage or double ups...feels really bad

[@Brady1997]

Even as a guild thats mythic raiding you don't always get the rings/trinkets/ rare items you want from raid or even the vault slots. Would be nice to get bullions after the .5 patch each season to then get the myth track you've been missing on raid items. Also here after the crest acquisition changes, finally good news 👌🏼

[@Serothil_and_stuff]

I am in the fifth week running of taking coins because my Vault hands out nothing but garbage. My highest Alt has just as many Myth pieces as my Main with less than a 10th of completed 10s. I have 4 people in my guild that all have a Sacbrood on myth track one even has 51:59 Sacbrood, Changeling AND the Twisting Shadow from GB, ALL ON FUCKING MYTH TRACK and I haven't even SEEN them in my Vault!!! And I have been playing since launch!!! Gearing is broken and the Vault is garbage content!

[@jbashrc]

The glaring issue that I see this season is that the entire seasonal progression for a semi casual player, is entirely gated behind 1 thing: timing +10 keys. Want to get Myth gear? Gotta do 10s. Want to get KSH? Gotta do 10s. Want to get seasonal portals? Gotta do 10s. This paired with the Tyrannical + Fortified happening at the +10 level just makes all of that feel so homogenous. You don't get a chance to incrementally "get better" and move towards the seasonal goals. The difficulty jump from a +9 to a +10 is too big, it doesn't prepare you for a 10 at all. The entire season just becomes a binary equation of timing or bricking tens; and I feel as though for most semi-casual players, it feels terrible.

[@Dilllll26]

I mean is it wrong that you have to learn your class to get the best gear in the game? You really don’t have to be that good to time a 10. Like most games if you want the best and most competitive rewards you have to do some research and improve

[@CsStoker]

@@Dilllll26 Not when you are not doing this by yourself, the fact that you require a group makes things a lot harder and that's the exact reason why the whole M+ game became an eternal queue

[@matrix255]

10s are very easy, if you can't time them or even finish the dungeon for the vault rewards then you just suck at the game.

[@LongJohnnn]

It really isn't hard to do 10's bro. It was only hard at the start of the expac when everyone had shit gear (and so it should be). Mythic gear shouldn't be ridiculously easy to get otherwise what is the point of having different difficulties and how are you going to keep both good players and casual players happy in modern WoW without the different difficulties and gear incentives? If you can't do a 10 at this point in the patch, it is a skill issue and you are going to gain way more out of actually learning your class and the game over getting mythic gear.

[@gollese]

Thing is, you can do 10's if you play your class. Using personals & kicks will get you VERY VERY far. Also make a focus kick macro.

[@kylebb96]

44:00 He was just saying they're too FREQUENT. 15 second and 18 second cooldowns when your defensive cooldowns are multiple minutes long don't add up. Of course there should be tank busters, just less frequently, or if they are this frequent - less damage.

[@vincenthamel3420]

When looking at the deplete issue... please consider the POV of people who ""only"" play WoW 25-30 hours a week, you know just a part time job, not a full-time job. Spending hours doing homeworks keys just to get back in IO keys suck balls. We already spend 12 hours a week raiding, 3-4 hour doing chore ( per character, if like many many many people your M+ toon isn't your raid toon), we don't need more "chore" after depleting a 16 SV on the first pull just because someone who play WoW for a living thinks that we need "stakes" in M+. And it doesn't bring variety either, because when you are doing homework key rerolling everything you aren't going for those grim batol or SV key, you try to reroll as many mist/ ara-kara as you can before upgrading them. Key depletion have to go. No other aspect of WoW have such harsh punishment and waste as much time as key depletion. In the premade scene it means we spend our entire gaming session doing homework keys. In the pug scene it means nobody want to invite outside of the meta or try anything but the proven Yoda strat because the punishment for failure is too harsh. Key depletion have to go.

[@jeanpascoal9552]

Finally someone said it.

[@TheNesh1988]

At this point Blizzard should make M+ finder.... - It should be up to max key lvl 10, and its for ppl who dont want to push, just want they weekly keys to be done. - The System should filter be rating. like 0-500 2-3 keys, 501-1000 4, 1001-1500 5-6, 1501-2000 7, 2000-2250 8-9, 2251+ 10.... - After you reach certain breakpoint you can switch key level (like in Diablo 3 rift). This would be a point for pushers too if you did a lvl 16 dungeon you can switch your key to any lvl on a 2-16 range. You can manually search/listen keys, like today, for pushing you still need to that, but: - No more broken keys! - Extra loot if you time your key (right now its 2 loot but if u time it, 1 extra is dropped) - Extra crests, if u stay in a not timed key and you have a higher rating. (Coaching bonus) - If u are capped at crests at your main, you generate extra "Warband Crests" for your alts. - etz.

[@Thorkou]

I don't think this point was mentioned: but a 636 crafted piece requires 90 gilded, witch is the exact amount needed to fully upgrade your 6/6 mythic gear.... you are basically wasting 15 crest, that could be used for other stuff. Also Poe 2 was always going to take my attention. ever since dragon flight I've just gotten 2500 on 2 characters and quit. M+ right now is not worth taking seriously until they fix it and start respecting our time as players it will stay that way.

[@Kmaitland89]

The reason they do not want to people to pull big in dungeons is because they can't balance classes correctly around it. They specifically said, they want to create encounters where some classes who thrive off lower target counts. You can't have those classes succeed if there ARE NO smaller pulls. However, they haven't hit on balancing those classes either so.

[@HanLee-j1c]

44:41 can someone give me a link or footage of this statement? What is a "high key" for the devs?

[@colin5676]

Community should vote on which re-release dungeon is coming back

[@Pavo_Constellatio]

What if M+ was more structured like Delves--in the way that for each completion (Delve/M+) you unlock a higher level, and by doing so remove the lowering of M+ key level from timer failure. Make it that you could go to any dungeon and just set it to any level which the party has unlocked... And then maybe with your weekly vault you could be gifted a special bonus token for bonus loot like bountiful keys, make it dungeons specific to promote running various dungeons (and not just the meta runs which everyone would be going for straight gear and crest farm)? A follow up question is: using this method, does it make delves less fun by not taking away your highest level of entry away from not completing a delve? Do you think completion becomes less rewarding by not being punished with loosing a key level--vs just not being rewarded? This new M+ method could also stay timed (with a death counter), but focuses on rewarded/ not rewarded--instead of punishement.

[@Furcas]

I'd absolutely prefer a system where you pick the difficulty you want to do from a menu like torment levels in d3 for example. Getting easy practice on each pulls over and over, or bosses I have trouble with sounds fantastic, and awfully similar to raiding.

[@ic3t3ap3ach]

we already have the system in delves. scrap keys and use delves or greater rift system like

[@CharlieNixon-v7b]

On the way you could get bullions - I would like it to be an option when you get your mark of mastery at 2500 IO or Heroic Raid. For me as a pure M+er prot paladin, i'd rather take a hero track swarmlords authority over taking a tier piece which I can get elsewhere from vault to catalyst. It would only be one item and really help M+er's who just need that special trinket (like spymasters).

[@mattsevera119]

I assume part of the reason for the AOE stop/recast change was to make melee more desirable, because they generally have shorter kick cds and capped AOE, and now the pull sizes are smaller.

[@MrDoctorDave]

.7 patches should double drop rates of crests and unlock bullion/dinar trade ins until next patch then take it away.

[@Tegardener666]

Id like to see that from a .5 patch that max level alts get the previous track gear across the vault. It is rough running 8 keys on alts to get all options open on Vault.

[@Satelitko]

50:00 - He's not arguing that every pull should be massive. He's arguing against designing mob abilities to SPECIFICALLY COUNTER massive pulls.

[@ilpr3dator646]

The main issue that I have with gearing on m+ is mostly on alts (it happens on the main too but its not as bad since I'm an altoholic). I'd say I'm a decent player, m+ main, so I end up on the guilded crest lvls when my character still needs something from before so I basically end up capping on guilded but I have to go back to lower keys, that are generally boring and feels entirely not rewarding, so I can upgrade Heroic gear, and then I have to wait for the reset so I can have A CHANCE at getting a Mythic item, and the closer to finishing the character, the harder it becomes, to the point that, if I'm doing the weekly vault for 8 characters (what I'm doing now), normally 7/8 characters are getting tokens, to the point that I don't need sockets or I end up putting sockets in HC gear because I have way too many. Being an Altoholic currently sucks major ass and I cannot stress enough how much this game needs a gearing rework

[@thatunrecognizedguy2295]

Honestly what I see going on with the dust: it would probably incentivize high key players to carry alts of each other through 2s, 3s and so on to stockpile dust in a week. Or they could carry randos who need score, and that would net their group a lot of dust

[@3allz]

Seems Blizz have already responded! 60 crests instead of 90 for the crafting crest and a reduced price on the exchange crests too. Also only need 636 for the achieve

[@dirusj4006]

Pretty sure Mists and NW are both worse than they where in SL. Mists for sure is worse.

[@Nightstalker314]

Nope.

[@dreadfury2485]

Mists is by FAR worse. NW's debatable since on one hand there are some dumb trash mobs that you have to pull now but on the other hand you don't have quite the same messed-up Nalthor/Stitchflesh scaling issues and the dumb trash mobs you have to pull now are very efficient count.

[@joveonlightbringer9684]

Mists is TWW's version of Shadowmoon Burial Grounds, the key we pug for fast crests and vault filler.

[@shamba4406]

Not even close. Mists is way better now compared to SL.

[@rozeyrosehip]

Regarding gear track upgrades: the different gear tracks are useful to delineate and differentiate between difficulty levels, but gear tracks should unlock on your item the more you achieve. Clear LFR difficulty or m0s and your shitty world gear can now upgrade to veteran. Clear normal raid or all timed 6s in m+ and your gear can go up to champion, clear heroic and all your gear can go to hero track. Myth-track should be unlocked per boss. X boss unlocks helmet myth-track, x boss unlocks ring upgrades. M+ 12 grim batol unlocks your trinket upgrades. +12 mists unlocks your leg myth-track. Keep the crests the same (increase drop rate late in the season) and keep the vault the same. A myth-track trinket from the vault can unlock a myth-track trinket slot, allowing you to upgrade something you already have. Obviously skipping crests costs and upgrades if an item drops that is higher than what you have. Unlocked items or slots on your main is reflected in your warband. This way you don't have to farm the Ara Kara trinket 4x throughout the season. That one mage in your guild who is stuck with a LFR Spymaster...The gearing would still be relatively slow and rely on crests in the early season but allow players who take a little longer to gear a way to for sure get the the best tools with which to play the game. Let us decide what we do with our gear, and stop keeping the best gear for the best players.

[@FoxiestDuck]

28:00 if they're going to give a death penalty, when there's already death penalties like running back and damage loss. I think adding in checkpoints make the death penalty affix make more sense.

[@konter4323]

@2:13 I dont think so. My friend who only plays retail wow(No other games), also turned away for the rest of the season. reason beeing, that he thinks the dungeons are not fun and that the new key stone system creates a non enjoyable difficulty curve.

[@shadowdragon8168]

14:43 OMG, I hate people that make that argument so much, it will not devalue your gear, it only devalues your gear if the have the mentality that it is devaluing the gear. Having a bullion system mid way through the season does nothing but help everyone, even the people that have everything already by allowing people to catch up and get up to that gear lvl faster the longer a season has gone on and gives you way more people to play with to allow you to make use of that gear that you have. Plus, it gives you a deterministic way of obtaining a piece of gear that you have not had any luck with from the vault, like the spymaster trinket, and it allows you to gear up an alt faster that you might have wanted to try at a higher lvl but don't have the time or motivation to overcome the wall that they have in place now for gearing up alts.

[@dr3armer]

@52:22 you don't have to bring back certified bangers all the time, you just have to bring back dungeons that people don't despise. Maybe one certified banger, one redesigned classic/bc/wotlk dungeon and 2 decent dungeons from previous m+. Especially during the first season of an expansion where you wanna leave the best impression.

[@CsStoker]

I will never consider Dratnos a man of the people, he's the corporate shill that Blizzard wants, he was pushing for an extra target cap since dragonflight "for balance"... He's insane.

[@maartenneppelenbroek]

Never heard him say that, got a link?

[@ForeverFridayVideo]

Yeah he’s one of the people that was in blizzard’s ear for tww. Guy is completely out of touch man

[@kitkatgoesmeow8988]

Why don't 636 crafted just... count for that slot? You literally dump an extra 15 gildeds into it. What's the point of the achievement if it isn't to alleviate the grind? You will have already grinded harder than the 639 alternative

[@koopk1]

you can tell the trends of players going between different versions of wow when the bots leave for each new release, consumables in SOD jumped 500% in value cuz all the bots left for anniversary realms for example

[@mierkablue]

Many casual 1-2 night/weeks hc groups (who actually prog heroic) finish around hall of fame closing so I think his timing estimate is pretty good in that regard.

[@andrewmiller5690]

The AoE stop change went a long way to bring the different utility kits of the classes a lot closer. The glaring outliers now are those classes with extremely long CD interrupts IMO.

[@Xadanar]

An addtional point of the targeted loot with denar/bullon thing is that at this point in the season I personally have still yet to get my BIS Dungeon Trinket to drop in my vault which is 13 ilvls with a capped vault of 10s every week. It feels awful 3 weeks into a season taking sockets or getting a vault at the end of the season in hopes you get that coveted trinket/ring/neck/cloak whatever and ended up with yet another dead vault that you dont even have the opton to reroll. Why is there no a currency you can claim from your vault after lets say 4-6 weeks that allows you to either UPGRADE an item to the next iLvl Track or gain a "reroll" charge when you select coins. I would prefer the first option because atleast at that point you are still farming the item and rewarded for doing so. It also allows people who arent Mythic raiding to gain access the Myth track trinkets off the end bosses by running Heroic or Normal and either upgrading the trinket once or twice. This is a separate topic but there are a ton of players who are quitting Mythic raiding and just doing M+ and obviously have no access to the mythic track trinkets off the last bosses or the myth ttrack rings.

[@txdmsk]

I hate the weekly vault. Such bad game design. It also makes M+ runs pointless. Just do one +10 per week per character or more if you want more rolls then alt+f4 for a week. What if I have 5 days to play every 3 weeks or whatever? It also creates a distance between activity and reward, which is awfully bad design from a psychology perspective. I'm pretty sure it also has an algorithm to give you shitty gear you do not need so you don't gear yourself too fast. I have 13 characters. A few weeks into the expansion I clear the highest M+ with all of them and I often await 10-30 myth track item each week. For expansions now I have been doing a rough estimate on what are my chances for getting a higher ilvl item from my weekly vault. 70-80% calculated chances correspond to 10-20% actual chances. I can not be the unluckiest person since BFA or whatever.

[@VELI926]

Mythic+ Needs to be added to the dungeon finder tab as Solo Queue difficulty and thats just the first step second is maybe removing the keys aswell and allow players to choose in which level of difficulty they want to participate in. Just a thought !!!

[@Combat-Titan]

Thanks for the guide been trying to add Thor to my Vanguard lineup. Now I hope they add a cool Thor skin

[@jonathanhendricks6564]

You can’t do a “targeted” system later in the patch because you will always feel bad when they take it away at the beginning of the next season. It’s a “borrowed power” like problem.

[@faldrya3057]

I'm enjoying m+ as a tank healer and dps, there are certain things i do not like, and that is the amount of m+ you have to do to farm the crests and the interupt system that was implemented, other then that i've quite enjoyed all of the dungeons, maybe the scaling system is very bad, but stil fun.

[@gpm135]

Max....keep in mind u do not play mplus like the majority of the player base. Some of your takes do not make sense seeing that u play mplus so differently than "normal" ppl.

[@ryanpower1291]

They have beeen scared people "finish" their character and quit. But if its fun and fair to gesr especially later in a patch then it would probably mean more alts, which means more playtime. And even if someone does quit because they are finished with their main, its way better for them to leave that way than to have them leave upset and never come back to the game again.

[@JordanSlash]

They should sell M+ specific mounts for 100$

[@polarstate]

/rage

[@JordanSlash]

@@polarstate Max will say its too cheap

[@lazytitan8038]

WOW shouldnt be pay to win

[@H41030v3rki110ny0u]

​@@lazytitan8038too late, the WoW token exists lol

[@HarumiYu]

I only play and raid with my friends so I saw no difference in population and stuff, and the region I play seems pretty lively so far, not sure if this is americas problem or not, but pugging mythic+ and having zero parties to join might be hell indeed, I think the problem is all the gatekeeping and overall environment some people create and the game itself creates with their systems, which scares new people to try and the ones who really want to go for it just go with a full group.

[@SHSscorp82]

Maybe make the key change dungeons if you deplete the key. Failing to time a +10 Grim Butthole only to then have run a +9 of it just feels painful. 36:00 I work the night shift during the week but I raid with my guild on Friday & Saturday night when I’m off. That leaves me to have to pug m+ during the day during the week when there are mainly just the casuals on in guild.

[@FreddieVincent]

Could be cool to add the 636-639 upgrade to crafting into the things you can purchase with coins from vault maybe make it max coins or something

[@zogbric]

Dude we alrdy paid 90 crests. Which is more than a full upgrade of a myth vault gear. Stop makigg no it more costly than it is.

[@Paladin_Painting]

I think if your crafted piece simply had an embellishment made it max out in ilvl would fix the problem for that argument. cause youd still only be able to have 2 items that could go to 639. but non-embellished pieces would only go to 636

[@the8aum]

I think the most important thing was given the last attention. I would retain keys and create a solo rating for m+. Just copy the lol matchmaking and make it so you never know what rating you have for the majority of the players. Crest should be an weekly reward for how many dungeons you completed. And maybe should cap at 10 dungeons. You should still get keys in soloqueue so that you have an incentive to find a group. I personally gave up playing because I didn't find a suitable guild for me but I am picky. The in-game tool to find active guilds is though complete trash. There is no way to see if a guild is active what so ever. Just force guilds to reinlist monthly or what ever

[@xsardes336]

Whenever Hall of Fame fills most people are somewhat done with m+ if they dont have a team, and raid starts getting HEAVY nerfs, the "its no longer the same boss" nerfs...and sure there are some EXTREAME nerfs (when needed) after World First but Hall of Fame closing is always the point where Blizz starts to trivialize bosses that dont need to be trivialized

[@rmalaf]

As a long mythic plus enjoyer I would say that let mythic level gear drop from chests and you’ll see an immediate increase on the engagement of the system, it could be capped or easier in mythic raid sure but gearing could improve a lot from this Also let people grind harder content to update lower level content items across the board raids and mythic plus, it doesn’t need to have the difference between veteran, champion or mythic, don’t even need to change the currencies since for higher ilvl you’ll need a different currency anyway, but it would take away complexity from the system

[@Lordwolfie59]

Key depletion has to go. It has been a sore spot in mythic+ for so long. Give us ONE season to at least try it. Give us a drop down menu like delves where we can select what level we want if we've done the previous level. So if you've done mythic 12 you can select any level up to 13.

[@arthurvyrin3431]

for me M+ feels like an E-Sport. i dont want to play an E-Sport. i have no idea what would fix M+ for me, but i do like watching these videos to see if anyone says anything that would bring me back to it. no one has said anything that would bring me back to M+ yet :/

[@jethrodark2372]

It feels like a Esport because it is, thats what M+ was made for and why it has a timer. It was made so Blizz had a pve WoW Esport.

[@KennyFalmouth506]

@@jethrodark2372 agreed , but its poorly executed , altho the starting idea of m+ had been great imo

[@n0refuge]

I have a solid group of 5 guys I play with and we are timing keys 10+. The issue I'm seeing is that puging and timing low end keys, 8, to crest farm for upgrading and crafting gear is rough stuff. I regularly see tanks just quit keys after they keep over pulling or dps is not interrupting casters, and healers just not being able to keep up with pugs lack of skill. Currently higher keys require a minimum skill level that is above casual skill level and its showing. If Blizz expanded that key levels closer to DF season 2 it would help with the difficultly curve.

[@Naturalbeef]

This is where Delves became to essential to the game. Fooling around with M+ would drive most players out of the game. I fool around with the LFG refresh for a few minutes and then just go do Delves for gear/vault slots. If people really annoy me in Delve World, I just go do them solo.

[@ghost-in-the-ciel]

A 30 minute M+ run giving 50 gold is a fucking insult

[@jdeenas]

Tanking would be friendlier for new people if part of the responsibility was shifted on to dps. The maze boss in mist, can only be kicked by the tank, why can’t they implement that into every mob, where certain mobs can only be kicked by dps, and if they die then the tank or healer can kick, or if the dps interrupt is on cd. If they miss the kick they are punished by doing less dmg, or them specifically being debuffed. Something like that, or if the dps have to use their cd’s to survive because specific abilities can only be countered by their personal cd’s. This would teach them and shift some of the responsibility.

[@ClassicPuffin]

It's what FF14 does and it works. Tanks and healers also just need to be allowed to have more actual power to make them more enjoyable to play, if they are always extremely high responsibility roles which are also inherently harder... guess what, no one plays them.

[@Fernandes36]

26:45 - Problem is, isntead what u feel is frustration and that should be quite clear at this point. "Oh let's waste 2-3 minutes or wtv to get back to boss just to have a 40 sec wipe for some reason and then have to make our way back" No one likes that.

[@colin5676]

I want a torghast M+ season where killing a boss gives you random empowerment choices, but be properly whacky and interesting not juist class specific or buff % stuff.

[@ari54x]

sui makes a video that's half about tanking being punishing but does not mention routing turning people off learning M+ if they weren't there for the open of S1 or previous expansions XD I think a big thing to get more tanks into M+ is just having low keys (ie. ones where you're still gearing up) is actually *removing* routing as a mechanic. Just have a few canned routes on lower keys and destroy all mobs not on the route so that you 100% know if you see a mob you need to pull it, so tanks only need to know routing for high keys where people are already hardcore, and pulling on lower keys becomes mostly about learning pacing and mechanics. No matter what else you fix, you're not getting many new tanks in if they have to learn routing before they can play M+, it's way too big an ask. Love the dust idea, combine that reward with some bonus gold as well and you have a banger. Nobody has to do it but you get rewarded for playing alts, being in LFG, or playing outside of your core group, and helps people learn from good players. There should also be a discount for pushing a key up to your best timed level.

[@Max-9871]

Im pro faster gaining of crests but also im against it cause i did see how fast you get your 8 sparks (= instant 636 items while 639 being the max ilvl of the season) so if they speedup gaining crests they have to do something against just crafting 636 on every slot except tier items and trinkets on fresh alts. Making 2500 m+ rating a requirement to buy the gilded crest crafting item would completly solve that issue of instantly gearing alts to the max itemlevel.

[@auditor_sama]

Can agree if it would be accoutwide. 1 gilded crest = 1 gold. And no valorstones.

[@MrHuntervad]

There are some many problems in different ways, with the game mode, the fact that it is inside an mmorpg and wants to be in as the head of game scrapping every other game mode, commuinity rush, timer, fail backlash, etc. This needs a multiple way of fixing, as the game mode is very good, but has a weird place in the game and the reward/gameplay cycle needs to be better.

[@Gewsfrahba]

i think a good argument for not giving more crests above an +8 is that it creates incentive to push higher because that would then be the most optimal farm. i think the idea of keys above 10 in general is that they're only incentive is rating and personal accomplishment. its a similar argument to why people don't like achievements in wow (or every game at this point.) it completely warps player motivations.

[@Thatwowguy22]

if they just made everything cost less crests I think a lot of these issues just go away huh?

[@Dr0Damyen]

If you compare LFG Delves/M+ at the start of the season with the current LFG, there is a huge difference. The number of groups dropped immensely. This way already before PoE2 launched. It has gotten worse week by week.