Raidleading: Is Toxicity Good?

[@madg00mba]

i scream at anyone if they miss a mechanic, if you cant handle the heat get out of LFR

[@MikeyJ28]

Sounds like you should probably get out of LFR lol

[@ModsixGaming]

This is hilarious and clearly the most underrated comment on KZbin.

[@naabaabaan7695]

agreed

[@kerrykent9325]

LMAO

[@JCurry1123]

​@MikeyJ28 lmao you know this is satirical, right? No way you think this is their actual MO

[@JakeFromTree]

I never use the green screen. I just like buying things

[@Jrose767]

W shit dude, keep it up

[@joaquin5028]

I liked how you mogged him every pause

[@TylerJBrown192]

Realest thing I've ever heard in my gd life

[@dasuberkinchen]

Great vid bro

[@jerault9178]

One time my raid leader whispered me, "I need you to stop dying buddy." I locked the fuck in for the rest of the night

[@Xenamos]

Why does it take ur RL to /w you that for you to actually do it? Should lock in from the start after your first death unless you enjoy wasting everyones time

[@Devon9698]

@@Xenamos dont pretend like youre 100% fully locked in 100% of the time youre raiding

[@infectedshadow]

​@@Xenamosbecause sometimes you're in your own head. It happens. Sometimes folks just need that to recenter their focus.

[@psyonicpanda]

​@@Devon9698Just depends why you're there. If you are there to hang out but also hit bosses then yeah, can definitely lose focus. If you're just there to prog and play, should be able to focus the entire raid night.

[@gelidgee]

Not the “buddy” ☠️

[@richardjones8846]

if my raid leader isn't telling me i'm a useless piece of shit for missing 1 soak... are they even raidleading at that point?

[@naabaabaan7695]

🔥

[@Experiment.626]

I love your talks about taking accountability , I’m a raid leader for a mythic progression team, and owning my mistakes in front of the raid team, or listening to a strategy a player might have that improves our strategy and acknowledging it and trying it gains a lot of respect as well. I felt it when you said we are like a weak aura for our teams and you aren’t wrong when I miss calling things on a newer fight someone always dies. To me it’s about guiding your team through the fight because you’re someone that greatly understands how to get the fight done and how the rhythm of the fight goes.

[@BlastHeart96]

My raid leader of close to a decade is a chill dude. He’s a karate instructor. He doesn’t believe in yelling at people when they mess up a mechanic because it’s counterproductive. It becomes less about that person understanding their mistakes and how to improve and devolves into more personal issue. Embarrassing some isn’t always the answer (it’s almost never the answer). He usually addresses it privately or indirectly by explaining the mechanics/strategy very well.

[@mierkablue]

^^ this. I have truly loved the leadership training from an ex-navy seal Jocko Willink. It embraces distributed leadership and putting the team first. Those concepts with calm nature and kindness but clear tactics have truly elevated our casual raiding group. Shaming or fighting over ego's is such a waste of time for everyone and definitely does not make people learn faster or work better as a team. That team work is the core of success in all co-operation.

[@belisarian6429]

Indeed embarrassing someone is usually not productive, usually identifying what problem was (especially when boss is new and tactics are not well defined and remembered) and explaining solution generally to raid is much more productive, pointing at the guy who messed it up is less productive. This especially holds for random mechanics individuals have to do and you will do it once in 30 pulls, with those you have to learn from mistakes of others. There are some cases when one specific person is failing some mechanic constantly, in that case blaming is still not the answer, discussion if that person understands mechanic and maybe discussing ways how to help him is much better (like external defensive, speed up, weak aura that will alert them).

[@Manylimes]

Not toxic but holding people unapologetically accountable is the best kind of raid leader imo

[@nosferhatu]

My mythic raiding guild disbanded after 5 years because no one was enjoying the raids anymore due to our raid leader who was constantly yelling on discord making each encounter a stresfull nightmare. Slowly people stopped showing for raids and guild was done.

[@JCurry1123]

It took 5 whole years?

[@Soulessdeeds]

I mean this story may have two sides here. Either the raid leader was just a complete dick which is totally possible. OR they were tired of seeing the same people mess up the same mechanics repeatedly over 5 years. Both are possible. But I tend to lean in raid leaders favor as being a leader and also doing the mechanics is always more stressful than some DPS jerking off to meters and logs. Something that is far more likely to happen in guilds.

[@MikeyJ28]

Twitch chat loves to roast specific players for mistakes as if they aren’t pugging 4/8 heroic.

[@ChromaticEagle]

4/8 normal

[@spamalt5085]

The drill sergeant bit in the military is training you how to react when someone's in your face. If someone is screaming at you in combat, and you panic or freeze, you could be killed or your squad mates could be killed. It's literally teaching you how to be yelled at, and respond, because it could be life or death.

[@Recreantsmile]

"most people can't learn unless they're stressed" was this dude in the military? lol

[@Soulessdeeds]

You know I was in the military for 15 yrs. There's many different forms of leadership. Even in the military. Screaming and ranting does happen. But typically it's done by people who are on a power trip due to their ranks. But not always. Sometimes those guys doing the screaming and ranting are genuinely disappointed in a persons performance because they know that person or person's have so much more potential. And often those people respond more to "I will sit your a** if you don't lock it the F*ck in". And then you suddenly see that person not dying or failing that mechanic. And sometimes finally admitting they weren't using a WA that the rest of the team was using to prog the kill. If you don't respond well to screaming and yelling then that guild is obviously not the place for you. But for others like an old vet like me. It's comfortable and entertaining. I have played wow since the end of Wrath and been in many guilds over the years. I can say I have seen all of the typical forms of WoW raid leading. At the end of the day you choose where you are having fun.

[@vincenthamel3420]

that was a poor choice of word, but I 100% agree with the guy. Especially in lower CE guild, some people don't learn unless you specifically call them out, tell them what they fucked up, and tell them if they keep dying to this 100 pulls in they are getting benched for the rest of the tier. It might not be a thing in the really good guild because everyone is somewhat self-aware... but in the rank 500+ guild this is 100% correct.

[@thequam64]

It's not about stress, it's about having the awareness about consequences of not learning and getting removed or benched. Stress is the worst companion for learning anything, but many guilds don't hold their raiders to any consequence and are surprised people don't learn. Well why should they if there's no consequences.

[@QPoily]

24:42 and the points after: the way I see this, people who aren't intrinsically motivated to improve and care about other people's gameplay experience (referring to ruining other people's fun by being woefully unprepared and lacking motivation to improve) won't magically start caring more if you start yelling at them and resorting to these kind of drill sergeant-like methods. The only way you can get them to care is by explaining that their unpreparedness and unwillingness to improve results in a poorer gameplay experience for everyone. And if they don't care at that point, they'll never really care and are simply a poor fit for your team. In the end it remains a matter of differing expectations and goals. If your team consists of a wide range of players who all have differing goals and expectations, your team is going to have a lot of friction. It's in that same matter of those two players Max was talking about after the RWF who weren't motivated to level a gazillion mirror characters in prep for the RWF but if they wanted to, could still perfectly compete in the RWF otherwise. Those two players realized that they didn't enjoy doing that and that if they were to still compete in the RWF, it would only breed resentment between the raiders due to a difference in expectations.

[@kogure7235]

I was in a "casual, toxicity free" mythic raiding guild once, and we couldn't get past the wall because the damage just wasn't there in the bottom half of the raid. And it was never adressed or called out or mentioned because that would be toxic. 150 wipes deep and consistently hitting enrage every raid night. And eventually the guild split apart because half the guild wanted to progress and the leadership wouldn't adress the problems. You don't need to be toxic, but as a leader you need the balls to talk to people who underperform. The M+ pusher clique eventually started their own guild and took a bunch of people with them, and I can't blame them.

[@nucleartickz]

one thing is being a leader, another different thing is being a dictator. what you were having there was a maybe anxious leader that didn't know/want to address those problems , but let me tell ya being a leader isn't easy and not for everyone :p

[@ke8213]

"Most people cannot learn unless they're stressed" - as a teacher, that is one of the stupidist takes I've ever heard.

[@Wolverines9999]

I would substitute the word pressured for stressed. Like sports a lot of athletes respond best under pressure. I would say it would have to be similar with gaming.

[@ke8213]

@@Wolverines9999 Learning takes place in a lot of different ways - most of them have NO pressure at all. Toddlers learn how to talk by observing their parents interact with them. Students learn how to write essays by being exposed to an essay and having a teacher model the writing process - if I tell a kid 'Hey, buddy - if you don't write a stellar paragraph by the end of this period, you're getting a lunchtime detention', I'm actively hampering his learning. People learn things by watching documenatries or reading books, or by just TRYING to do that specific activity and going through a trial and error process. Stress/pressure has little to do with it. I don't feel like athletes are actively learning when under pressure - it's a skill and a requirement for them to be able to perform under pressure, but it is in no way conducive to learning.

[@vaeell6532]

Literally never had a good teacher so take that for what you will.

[@ke8213]

@@vaeell6532 I've been fortunate to have a few. Sorry you never got to have one.

[@smallpseudonym2844]

@@Wolverines9999 Still incorrect.

[@AddressTheElephant]

This was interesting - I missed it live, so thanks for sharing! I love all the discussion that is happening around leadership and culture in raiding. I also don't think most people want toxicity from their leader; what most people look for in these types of raid leaders, are raid leaders who can establish a culture where the hard talks happen and are constructive. And I'd probably argue that that's the opposite of toxicity. On the other hand, the "smile and wave" kind of niceness is definitely not productive either. Ruinous empathy ends up being dishonest a lot of the time, and you're just pushing problems ahead of you.

[@Byhythloh]

As long as people own up to mistakes, no problem. But the worst is when they blatantly make a mistake, raid leader points it out, and they make a stand saying "Nope, I didn't do that, wasn't me!". Our raid lead pulls out the logs, and puts it on show.

[@HellXan]

I'd be pairing that with a seat on the bench (mandatory or not). If I have to waist raid time looking up someone else's logs to prove them wrong, they can sit the rest of the night.

[@zizthesin]

Max you really are spitting about call outs. I used to raid lead AoTC and first 50% of mythic raid teams. When i could feel my mental battery drain and my callouts got worse (blood DK main tank + raid lead) our players would do worse. You are 1000000% correct that its basically the raid leader being that first alert. Its a gross over simplification but we basically are the human version of DBM/WA

[@adamc8409]

I find its a delicate balance, but toxic screaming kills the fun of the raid for sure.

[@dflowers6771]

btw he is talking about CLASSIC VANILLA RAIDING****

[@richardjones8846]

moar dots

[@khoitrieu]

Doesnt matter if it’s retail or classic, toxic raid leads are just impetuous children.

[@sampoth9564]

This is even funnier. Classic raid encounters can be cleared with like half the raid dead up through even most of naxx. This creature absolutely should not be allowed back into society and must be quarantined to the fresh classic servers

[@worthless_punk]

true ​@@sampoth9564

[@JaySharp1]

The problem is that a decent amount of raid leaders do so because they like having power and control and have less emotional intelligence than my dog so when they feel inadequate they lash out at their raiders. Any good raid leader has actually lost their cool very very infrequently.

[@cheeseorwhatever]

toxic raid leaders have a knock-on effect as well. They set the tone for the raid, so it emboldens other raiders to copy that behavior both in discord during raid and behind the scenes. Been in several guilds where if you make a mistake, you'll not only get chewed out in raid but shit talked behind your back incessantly outside of raid. The best raid leaders I've ever had demanded accountability but gave people grace for mistakes (especially if you were unlikely to repeat them), and also were quick to snuff out random raiders being toxic about mistakes in voice.

[@dustylong9187]

Max pauses video to go over his take and says ok maybe I paused too soon. Let’s listen to the whole thought process. Rewind video and listen again only to pause in the exact same spot with max giving the same take lol.

[@dustylong9187]

I don’t agree with the guy in the video just something I noticed

[@johannilsson6395]

Yeah I think his ADHD shined through extra hard in this video

[@AnEnragedCat]

Big part of why I like watching max, his unparalleled ability to yap

[@LimitMaximum]

watch someone else

[@Mitss_ORLY]

Yeah he went crazy in this react video

[@nicholasmaccheyne3995]

Hey Max, I’m a member of a casual charity guild who killed fyrakk on normal in S3 (first raid for most). We’ve grown and found ourselves progging heroic this tier. For the last four bosses I kinda appointed myself raid leader (did the planning and shotcalling) and we got ansurek down after 65 pulls on Tuesday. Not exactly the hugest accomplishment in world of warcraft history, but a big deal for us. Been listening and paying attention to your channel and stream vods and a lot of credit goes to the advice and experience you’ve shared. So thank you on behalf of The Bear Clan!

[@JakeSezz]

22:54 I think he’s talking about people who learn best under “baptism by fire” kind of conditions. In my retail days, giving someone the basics of a situation, then letting them make a decision, and providing feedback can make a huge difference, compared to just providing death by PowerPoint type of training.

[@Real_Gron]

Sanest classic player issue

[@eonarose]

The only toxic raid lead I've ever liked is that one guy from the onyxia raid video.

[@Lionelhutz-attorney-at-law]

Lmao. First 10 secs those dudes eyes are cooked af Edit: Also that double hoodie is a jacket sold through Hollister/Abercrombie & Fitch /flex I know that stitching anywhere.

[@WinterFoxful]

Ok so Hi, I've been watching your content for ever, big fan of your discussion and game knowledge! That being said, this might have been one of the most real videos you've ever posted, at least to me. I have played this game since a bit before BC release, and even when I was a stupid kid 20 years ago, I immediately got into the raiding scene. I have experienced so many kinds of stereotypes you've discussed, everything between the passive kind ones, and the extremely toxic/angry ones. I have also been a raid leader for some of my circles, and am currently one to a very special circle. (I was not a very good one back then, but I was literally a high schooler kek) My current circle is just a bunch of ex-mythic raiders with fam/friends who barely play outside of raid or leveling, we only push AOTC now, and a small core of us push keys to a pretty ok level (currently 11s). So like, we're not pros, but we know our stuff. What it has left us with is a very mixed experience raid group. As a raid leader, I'd define my style of leading as very...friendly-toxic. I am lucky to have the players I do, and my co-lead, but basically all of us are mega-introverts, and conflict, even among us, is super spooky. My main job is to figure out what calls need to be made based on how we're learning the fight as a collective, but some of our friends with less experience take a bit longer to learn. Whenever somebody makes a mistake, whether it's my close friend or my friends friend, whoever (I don't play favorites because I've learned that the only answer for favorites is to just not have any, good or bad), I quite actually, as we're all dying, wiping, trying to get recovery resses...I just make fun of them. The thing is, I never yell, at all. I also GROSSLY over exaggerate the emotion I put into it. I make it silly and obnoxious, as if to say 'Wow, how dare you make a mistake, X, holy shit bro.' I have seen/experienced the toxic side of raid leading, and you are 110% correct; it is almost required for high level progression teams to learn together, and handle problems when they arise so that you can grow and move on. EVERY time it is ignored, shit happens and guilds break. This is what I started doing about 3 years ago because of that, when Dragonflight released and we came together again. It allows everybody to laugh about it on the spot, and it gets rid of any lingering fear or guilt when we make mistakes. I even call myself out, constantly. It's also made it easier for even shy members to ask how to not mess up again, or how to do x or y better. I've seen a raid where players have bad performance because it's almost as if they're being held hostage, or targeted. It's a fucking video game, lmao. For the first time ever for TWW season 1, we actually got our first AOTC kill without sitting a single member, which is something we've needed to do in the past to get past certain dps checks, etc (Raszageth =.=). Oh, and sitting people is never even ever an issue, because of how good the atmosphere is. It's actually magical and I adore them, and I'm like, mega proud as a raid mom. Anyway, for somebody like you to just validate so much of the things I have experienced and learned and used to improve myself as a person and as a raid leader, it just... World of Warcraft, like you said, is just a video game. People who take it too seriously suck. But even though it's just a video game, the positive impact it's had on my life and my relationships is what makes it more for me, just in a different way, so to just know that some people at the top end of a game I really like agree with some of my experiences and practices makes me happy, especially with the state of the game community right now.

[@Aectanum]

About the most important bit, - I think it's a jacket with a zip-on liner, like M65 or such

[@kerwynbrat5771]

Yelling at a raider just lowers the energy of the entire raid team. Yelling at people makes me automatically disrespect the person doing the raid lead. Whomever this person is, would not last in my guild. Demeaning someone and calling it "your responsibility" is infantile and does nothing but stroke your ego. I prefer empowering my players rather than calling them out. As I tell my players, I don't need to point out you died in the fire, you already know you died in the fire. Own it, admit it and then don't die in the fire again. Then end result is we laugh at each other and move ahead. If there is someone who keeps dying then that has to be addressed, but you don't have to demean anyone to discuss it. Whomever this person is, needs to take his emotions out of this and start viewing things from a different view. If I was "in his raid" I would say later and hearth out.

[@billytran3692]

15:13 I would do this for nearly any game if the time allows, but most of the time you don’t have the time gather people around and replay the problem/people don’t care to be hassled enough. So you do just wait until the one person team wiping eventually gets it

[@Switch72nd]

The shit is hilarious from an outside point of view a lot of times. All of us laughed at the Ony raid leader dude. But that shit is toxic af and no one likes it when it happens to them.

[@LifelessIsBeat]

Yooo I've been watching Jake for a while now, all of his cooks are so fire and hilarious. It's mainly Classic Vanila/SoD content that he talks about, and it's all just a window into some decades old glorious nonsense.

[@tobagabonany]

16:32 Had someone do that constantly on Rashok prog and it totally ruined the vibe of the fight. Like yeah, you get hit by a flame wave and thats bad, but that's literally the only thing you have to worry about other than placing orbs and dipping mid, so OF COURSE everyone knows you shouldn't get hit. Fuckin genius

[@savingark1528]

I had a somewhat relevant experience recently where I was tanking on a H nerubar pug. The leader wasn't necessarily toxic but very much ruled with an iron fist (kicking low damage after certain bosses or for failed mechs). He wasn't mean about and it did genuinely improve my experience as someone who did know what they were doing, the fresh blood was better more often than it was worse. This wasn't particularly conducive to learning but for someone who's just trying to get their heroic clear, I appreciated his style

[@Xenamos]

Sounds like a good RL. Low damage and people who fail constantly to mechanics should be kicked and they should learn how to play or learn the boss fight on easier content before griefing others. They might call it toxic but what is really toxic is being a complete noob and thinking you're entitled to a spot because you have the game aswell but are wasting 20+ peoples time because youre inept and lied your way into a group

[@DoctorTako]

My RL calls people out for messing stuff but it’s not toxic and it’s never meant to be demeaning. You can 100% hold people accountable without being toxic and have fun with some banter and friendly trash talk. If my RL calls me an idiot sandwich I know why he did, I’m not offended and he’ll get swap blasted off the edge before next pull :D and we’ll all laugh about it

[@Waevform]

I think the key takeaway here is that some people have their general perception of things set to *EXTREME* (good or bad with no grey area). Instead of recognizing how negative this is for them they internalize it as a core feature of their personality and double down on it daily. Some people allow all of their behavior be dictated by their emotions in the moment and because of it are on a wild rollercoaster their whole lives. Idk who would willingly go to a raid on a scheduled basis to listen to someone process daddy yelling at them.

[@icresp4263]

Ive always tried be the most positive i can be as a raid leader, encourage people to own up to their mistakes. There are some people who think I'm too easy going on people but i find that everyone in my raid plays better and is more engaged when they aren't stressed or in their own heads about mistakes. The floor is open to everyone, lets discuss what we can improve on. I also encourage my team to talk and have fun to keep the vibes chill. It's also important to get to know everyone in your raid and find out if some people like the shit talk or like being competitive. There are some people in my raid that are super competitive and prodding them to play better or calling out someone elses good dps in front of everyone makes them lock in super hard, where for some people mentioning their play in the raid at all can lead to stress and and have them fumbling because they're committing all their brain power to not making that ONE mistake (that they think everyone is noticing, even when its something minor) and instead start doing worse everywhere else.

[@chancejohnson23]

From my experience of mythic raiding for a couple years. I just wish my GMs would do more about the people who are constantly making us wipe or messing up. Also the I always seem to Be grouped with people who despise to have to raid each week and here I am someone who enjoys the progression and difficulty of raiding. Idk if it’s just I need to keep searching for a new guild until I find the one or speak up in the one I’m in now idk.

[@MAJCrAiN]

The happiness in raiding longer than 2 weeks is getting on to play with people you enjoy playing with. That doesn’t tend to happen with guilds who are always actively recruiting 18 y/o’s who don’t want to talk to anyone and just prog. Need to find a longer term guild / or try and build something your self where you focus on the PEOPLE and then the enjoyment in raiding follows naturally.

[@nucleartickz]

you provided the answer to yourself already, you must move on. you cannot change the world but can only change for yourself. if the mindset is different then it is not going to work, y ou must find minds alike :p

[@johannilsson6395]

This guy reminds me of toxic bosses

[@Xenamos]

Toxic raid leaders are actually laughable, no one respects them even in their own guild. Just look at Echo and Liquid who are pushing WF which is their job, and they are all constantly joking around and having a good time, never raising their voices at eachother etc because they all have an equal role in the group and respect eachother like adults. Being RL doesn't make you special, it just means you're the only one who wants that responsibility, I can almost guarentee the other 19 people don't want anything to do with that role. If you wanna see toxic you should experience some SR or GDKPS in WotlK Classic lol. Even with my Progress SR group the raid leader would completely go mental over even 1 wipe

[@Sly_404]

That was a weird take. You can hold people accountable without being toxic. Purposely dunking on people to elevate your social status within the guild is a sure fire way for your guild to disband mid season cus people move on from your cesspool.

[@AngelUribe18]

the guy in the video seems like the kind of guy who swears that classic is infinitely harder that retail and his youtube stream is all streamer/youtuber drama

[@joshuafurr9439]

I am not the "raid leader", but I am the person who "handles things" within the guild and within the raid team. If someone is being toxic, they get a whisper from me. If they're struggling in raid, it's me they hear from. If we have to bench someone to progress, I'm the one sending the message. I don't yell at people on Discord or in guild chat. It's always done discretely. I will call people out for missing mechanics in raid (including myself), but I do it in a way so that they're just aware of what happened. I don't yell or get mad. I've been doing this job in this position since the first raid tier of Legion and it's been pretty effective. Aside from people quitting the game altogether for other reasons, we have had VERY little turnover within the raid team since Legion. Nearly all of our raiders are from Legion and early BfA. When people who have quit come back to the game, they come back to us. The only ones that don't last are the super toxic folks, who we get rid of pretty quickly. I consider that some measure of successful leadership. I will note that we don't Mythic raid. A few of us might PUG the first few bosses in any given tier, but that's about it. We're primarily an AOTC guild and we've been fortunate to have mostly pretty solid players who don't have the ambition to raid Mythic despite being good enough to do so. We know we don't have the patience or time to try that out. Plus there are only about 13-15 of us on any given week. We just here to be goofy, talk junk, kill each other and bosses, and chill out for 2 hours, 2 times per week.

[@dread46]

"...talk junk, kill each other and bosses, and chill..." Yeah i mean that are signs of a healthy functioning guild when you grief your raidmates just because you can and still kill the boss. I am not allowed to bring my priest anymore. Certainly not because of my Leap of Faith abuse :D

[@Crazyphapha]

42:22 I legit was in a guild with an officer like that once. Guy poached me from my dying guild, immediately acted like we were best friends and the only 2 people worth a damn in his guild, with the rest being idiots Turns out he did that schtick with literally every new person he recruited and then barely talked to them after a month LMAO

[@thequam64]

I've learned over the years not to power play my position to belittle people in public (raid). Still, because I've stopped trying to put people down for it, there are many raiders used to their RL venting, and they don't even know there's an alternative form of communication, some even stated they need that in a leader, and that tells more about them than anyone else. Also, people love drama, there needs to be at least one crusade every now and then else they get bored- low WR raiding is such a weird place to be in.

[@johncarmichael1737]

Still watching the ad before the video actually starts, but yes it’s good.

[@toallcameone3325]

As a person that raid led a 40man classic raid, its hard to get classic players to understand how easy it is to not fuck up MOST classic mechanics. He talked about Rezuvious, but thats a fight that actually requires a little foresight and planning, and should work fine if people know how their game works. (Mainly their MC bar)

[@ABirdDad]

getting destracted by the hoodie is wild

[@rep8778]

Giving constructive criticism and holding people accountable isn't being toxic. Being toxic is insulting guildies or screaming in your microphone over every little mistake. Also, ignoring obvious problems in the raid, like if someone just can't get something right and is holding the group back, can be considered toxic as well. If I had to choose I would pick the ladder though. I've been in all kinds of guilds. I've been in ultra-casual family guilds. I've been a raid leader for a top 100 guild. I've been a grunt in more typical guilds. The absolute worst guilds I've been in that always fall apart are the ones with bad leadership who treats its guild members as expendable trash.

[@obswalb4790]

I think there is a delicate balance of 'toxicity' that is not just acceptable but necessary for the high-stress environment of pushing for good WR. Every raider should feel like they are welcome as a person on the raid team, but the expectation of performing can definitely make some negative personality traits swell out of proportion to how the person normally acts. I think that occasional 'toxic' behavior from leadership toward people who are unreasonable or playing exceptionally bad bc of tilt definitely helps bring them back in line.

[@smallpseudonym2844]

@@obswalb4790 It is possible to perform any bit of needed correction or even discipline without "toxicity". The only way to justify the take is to twist "toxic" out of its actual meaning.

[@Boxkar24]

I left a guild high and dry back in BFA because our guild/raid leader was just a piece of work. She talked endless amounts of shit but made up every excuse on the planet when she fucked up. At this point I was 1 expac removed from cutting edge raiding and if the guild leaders in that world weren't being despicable, there's no reason a gm leading a group getting it's ass handing to it by heroic vectis should contain the sort of energy. The best raid leads I've had are fair, take input and take/deal criticism in a mature manner. If someone's messing up, you handle it but you handle it like you got some sense.

[@jonlane6527]

A raid leader is most successful if the guild is capable of being called out for a mistake but not taking it personally because they know mistakes happen and the raid leader's job is to reduce the amount of times mistakes happen. I really enjoyed Legion because of this exact reason. The guild i was in would be considered "toxic" by some because the raid leader was direct but we achieved our goals and after the raid or on off nights he'd be the same guy drinking and laughing along with everyone else. We had a revolving door of 2 spots mainly because I think new people weren't comfortable with that leadership style and thought the grass was greener elsewhere. They only saw the intensity of raid nights and missed the chjll atmosphere of off nights. And I'd happily take that over being in my current guild where the raid leader is a glorified dbm.

[@snidercats2618]

I think the "yelling" can be misconstrued/ genuinely be passion. My band director was infamous in the whole school district for being a hardass, but he was the reason our po-dunk school held their own at the area/state level. Yes, would his yelling be acceptable now/to adults? Mayne not, but you knew he cared about you/us, and held each of us to a higher standard than many held ourselves

[@WilWeeks]

This sounds like a video made by a classic player ngl

[@Tomppeh]

In a rather casual guild raid leading (only dwarf guild, going for AotC only each tier), we do run the "no blame policy" which means you should never openly call out people making mistakes, but we try to keep it in general in the likes of "hey guys we have to focus more on dodging the poison waves, I see bunch of people are getting him by them constantly". If there is a problem that I need to point out to single person (yesterday for example a more experienced played missed the acid nova jump trigger twice in a row), I ask in whisper on what's up. In that example the player just had confused which nova he was supposed to trigger and fixed it off. Not saying it's the perfect way but I feel the in the guild raid people can safely say "Sorry I messed up on that one" without getting targeted by the others after that.

[@ciaranm3083]

I left the best guild I was ever in because the raid leader was a screamer. Never at me, but it was exhausting to be around.

[@holyzynlord]

Left a guild I've been in for three years after the RL just stopped putting any effort into planning for the raid beforehand and would show up to yell at people for not following assignments that didn't really exist and were never really communicated.

[@brenenwynd2041]

they probably went to a large university. Universities want researchers for grants and prestige, and lots of times, those faculty aren't interested in teaching. The adjuncts and grad students tend to be the best teachers

[@phoenixyn-k4p]

Also what is your outro music? It's so good

[@TheFabulousEnby]

When i raid lead, im callong out every mechanic and counting down as it comes. If i see someone make a mistake that doesnt kill them ill usually playfully call them out. But also, when i mess up I immediately say something like, F Me, I cant stand there...

[@Jakaup]

Guarantee ive left this dudes pug before 😂

[@og_ktg]

I think ultimately it all depends on what you consider toxic. Like obviously yelling at someone over a mistake in a wow raid is toxic. But ive also dealt with players who felt that anyone that ever calls them out for any mistake, no matter the context, is toxic and i dont miss being in leadership for a fuckin moment. I think its vital for the health of the guild to have someone hold people accountable for not meeting the standards the guild has, whatever that may be. For me this tier just playing in an aotc guild, when we were first progging Kyveza we have a few players who just never pay attention to whats going on and even when asked directly if they understand something, theyll lie straight to your face. Then 20 pulls deep theyll send a dash through melee and say "i had a red line on me so i just ran away from it" after just being asked if they understood the mechanic and what we wanted to do with it. When you get to a point where youre just pulling and wiping on repeat because you know the boss will die as soon as one of like three people doesnt get chosen for a certain mechanic, you start to appreciate a raid leader who can be a little abbraisive sometimes.

[@kattatonik2356]

ain't no way this dude fully set up a green screen, only to then not use it for *multiple* videos in a row. that is psycho behavior

[@myv112]

I was in a mythic guild early TWW, the raid leader, when ever we made a mistake used to "insult" us. He said it is his personnality and we should not take it personnaly because he was "joking" (he said once: think about killing your self if you can't do this. Also that we, animals, should think about euthanasia). Coming to raid was stressfull to me eventhough I enjoy raiding... I left the guild 2 month after during progress. Was I wrong ? (Sorry my English is meh)

[@mochi_pochi_]

I think there's a lot of raid leaders that just don't know how to be a leader. Most people aren't leaders and just see people in pugs yelling at people, thinking that's what raid leaders do.

[@DOTzTheOmen]

As a Damien. I don't appreciate being called out in the example.

[@FlippyDipDipper]

The second a raid lead yells, I'm out.

[@tomaslaaperi5849]

I played WITH (not join) Goonsquad in EvE online several times. Their leaders had many years of experience with the game but all the leaders I played with in PVE content acted the same; Bullied people who made mistakes, talked down to people who underperformed and the pace was always super hectic a lot of information was missing ALL THE TIME, and so people often lagged behind the group and ended up alone in space, then having to ask for directions where the group is headed etc and ofc got yelled at and told they are useless and should pay attention etc etc etc. I hated playing with them. And Goonsquad was a MASSIVELY popular corp in EvE. I would never ever join these ppl and I do not know why they're so popular, if this is the way their leaders act. My people are like this: Super calm, everybody is talking and having fun and you often times can't tell who the leader is because it's all so streamlined. When there are mistakes, it's always calculated; Like, let's say we have new people in training, everybody knows that, and we have plans on how to clean things up. And there is 100% information on what's going on at all times and nobody is afraid to ask questions. We where only about 100 people though. But I feel THIS is the way you SHOULD do it.

[@Rgoiwnes]

22:44 Okay... You didn't have to call me out on my name like that.

[@AlexSaheli]

Сutting edge raider here. I see the point but usually RLs don't know where the line is. My best RL was the guy that was cracking us up nonstop, and guess what that was a cutting edge guild ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (called Bus to Orgrimmar :D)

[@DKLYF]

This guy is a legit insane narcissist who is the caricature of a terrible middle manager

[@DKLYF]

everything makes sense after knowing this guy is a classic player.

[@Beholder505]

The military of today is much different and less effective than it was a few decades ago. If you’ve ever served in an infantry unit in the past yelling is ABSOLUTELY going to happen. Because if you’re too soft or arrogant to fall apart or get emotional when someone is yelling at you, you’re not going to be able to hold your shit together when you’re in a dangerous situation.

[@mierkablue]

If you are a good leader the mistake a player makes is also yours > if something goes wrong, you prolly could have explained it better, used a more simple tactic, be earlier with the call outs, put out markers etc. BUT. It is also the persons fault if they failed the mechanic. AND it is also the whole teams fault for not pointing out if movement was unrealistic, if cd's were not lining up, if they know that that one person needs better instructions etc. So the whole team needs to work together and take responsibility and actively work to resolve and problem solve the challenges. Leader is there to kick the process on the road and hold the structure together - but in the end the success of the team is everyone's responsibility and everyone can do things to make it work better.

[@Xenamos]

Thats just not true though, many players say they understand when they dont and fail the mechanics anyway because theya re embarassed to say they dont understand it and just pray they dont get the mechanic on them. Theres people like this in every single raiding guild (Except maybe the top few)

[@Gre-unit]

This is a take you'd expect from someone that got fired from McDonalds and went home and smoked a bunch of weed.

[@ollaitsrealgood]

I had left a guild to join another for spamming keys. Got invited to fill in for their raids in mythic because they were having attendence issues with their healers. Literally haven't raided since Shadowlands. I show up, crush their charts, hit their prog fight and we're doing some weird strategy involving turning ghosts into a box formation and hitting them with decimates. Playing Mistweaver. Not quite sure how to interpret the absolute mess of polygons raids have become. Eventually get the fight down pretty good, but don't kill. People complain. I am blamed for decimates that don't actually target me. Raid leader yells at me, specifically. I say nothing, just keep crushing as hard as I can. Next raid day comes along and I am absent, better things to do. But so are 11 more people. Can't take a 7 man team into those raids and clear it. I gquit and rejoin old guild and now do the same job, bench healer, and we've killed 2 more bosses than the toxic raid leader's guild. 😁 I'm pretty sure nobody likes toxic raid leaders and I'm not even sure that the reasons people tell themselves they would prefer a toxic raid leader are epistemically justifiable in the first place.

[@The123Metronome]

Max I swear to god you've read up on leadership and accountability to be a better raid leader. Your takes show that you could make it in business leadership with the way you manage and lead people. That's everything in the workforce, is leadership through accountability and respect. It's just wild to see this represented in a video game, but make sense given the success of liquid/limit over the years. Absolutely love seeing shit like this, especially having seen the other side of this from a raiding perspective.

[@triangle1332]

One of the best performing guilds I was in was also the most toxic, by far. It all depends on what the guilds goal is though. I think toxic raid lead CAN be good for really pushing content. Very similar to a "Strict sports coach". But most people are not that. Most people are just trying to have fun. Most people do NOT want a toxic raid lead lol. Only a small minority imo.

[@Dantarn]

Toxicity is unironically a spectrum. We've seen how many super casual WoW players will say that almost anything in the game is toxic. So if someone saying "Hey man you made us wipe 5 times in a row to this mechanic can you please watch this video" or something is considered toxic by someone else then that's 'good' toxicity. But screaming at your raid over and over without meaning it in a funny way that they're on board with is gonna make everyone have a not great time

[@geminiblade]

As someone who played demonology most of bfa. My guilds motto was play what you want. Would I have performed better in nyalotha as destro? Yes but play what you want and “you should just know better” are contradictory. Was our slow progress solely my fault? Doubtful but the 180 in terms of friendship says people had a problem. But didn’t have the balls to address it.

[@baxthegnome]

Max watching Jakefromtree LETSGOOOOOOOO

[@kfactor99]

1min into the video and 100% agree. This type is my current raid leader. he's not "toxic", but he handles shit and calls out mistakes aggressively so they don't keep happening. People get tilted some times because, "dude i've only done that once calm down". but everyone in the entire raid see's how this guy fucked up and we don't want to all make that same mistake cuz he just got roasted like a christmas ham.

[@taylorlukes4810]

Our raid team is 2 leads. Myself who learns the strategies, figures out the best CD uses, does the recruiting, helps people learn how to use their utility or rotation for better optimizing and then the actual "Raid leader" who tells people to log on, makes the group, sets the marks and then wrongly echos me, so I have to explain again. 50 Pulls on Broodtwister later and people still don't know which egg they should pop. Of course I'm borderline toxic, my friends are friggin ridiculous. I can't wait to watch these ding dongs fumble Queen for the next month 😢😂 oh man someone save me.

[@Artorius300]

My raid leader is the softest piece of human anyone can encounter. That's until we miss a lot of mechanics and he says: Don't make me put the allies health bar plater, It will drop my fps, pls do it right. THEN we lock the fuck in. 150+ wipes on Ovinax being 16. (We are 20 in total but those 4 are fillers, with no possible replacement)

[@tekkaoz]

Yeah I never want to hear my raid leader yelling at someone, I've been in guilds where it does happen and I *never* found it funny, just embarrassing for everyone involved. Now laughing at someone good naturedly when they make a mistake? That happens in my current guild, sometimes to me, and it can be freaking funny and everyone laughs. Like Terros S4, my tank walked into the hole on the first pull and went "Oh you can fall into the hole" and everyone just cracked up.

[@angelkilier]

Obviously, what Max perceives as "most of people" isn't the same as what this person perceives as "most of people". They could be both true, judging how different the people they raid around are.

[@rhammpy4507]

why does it feel like the guy in the video raid leads in like classic or heroic only?

[@anthonyg6083]

They call him "Green Wall Jake"

[@MashyAsura]

I know you need to pause to explain and discuss but this is wild

[@rng81]

Max's secret is, he's always mad :D

[@Doshidar]

I'm my guild's raid leader. I get constantly thanked for raid leading without making things stressful and even get complimented when I say things like "As long as you understand your mistake its okay"

[@coleharris1945]

It depends on an individuals perception of what's toxic and what isn't. For example - Many out there might argue that you saying "shut the fuck up" mid raid is toxic. From the outside an w/o context, it's easy to see why. But it's needed. Legitimately needed. There has to be someone in a raid who is able to cut through the bullshit with just their voice and establish authority. W/o even watching the video, I agree with the dude. People prolly prefer a little toxic in their RL. Most people wish to follow. If an RL is "toxic" enough, the person doesn't actually have to do much of anything but tunnel vision on buttons.

[@phoenixyn-k4p]

I enjoy hearing your thought process, but it's really frustrating that you will hear part of his statement, run it back several times and comment on it trying to figure out his intent, rather than letting him finish his thought then commenting on it once you've heard it in full. I think the analysis would just be better overall if you let him say his bit, then respond, because while you're providing thoughtful and insightful analysis, you're kind of spinning your wheels by responding piecemeal, sometimes analyzing part of a sentence over and over. (Specifically, I'm at about 23:25)

[@speedbump9299]

Toxicity in raid leaders just removes the fun. There is a difference between Toxicity and constructive.

[@worthless_punk]

its so funny that he's talking about these "hard mechanics" and then its about classic LMAOO

[@fieryseven3390]

Well this sums up a new player experience... Be good at everything before doing anything. 😂

[@Stank1989]

FYI, when it comes to the military and yelling, its done because you're trying to correct large groups of people. I'm not yelling at you, the person in front of me, because you need me to. I'm yelling at you so that the 20% of the group thats also screwing up that same thing correct it without me having address it individually. The same way you point it out in raid to get everyone else to correct but they dont have discord to deliver your voice perfectly to everyone.

[@kalibos]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it also done to get former civilians used to stressful situations

[@mierkablue]

and it is done less and less in most armed forces and almost never in the highest pro teams.

[@tuckernoyes7371]

This guy has one of the most unhinged takes Ive heard in awhile. Seems like he’s projecting a lot of his insecurities onto “most people.” Most people just want to chill and play the game and aren’t secretly hoping their peers get yelled at.

[@inovakov7174]

God, I'd leave this guy's raid group *so fast*!

[@andersjensen1475]

Max making a 10 mins video, 40 mins long.

[@Wakozi]

In order to understand the yelling aspect you need to move away from this "I am the rl of one of the best guilds in the world" aspect. If you have people in your group who fuck up the most fundemental shit of a boss fight after 300+ tries you will get mad and your other raid members will get mad at you for not taking that person out of the comp. For example: During Razageth Mythic Progress we had a mage who did consitantly less damage than our tanks, even after 300 tries. Truns out the mage was not using spell steal on the boss (or sth like that - not a mage myself) after 300 tries. Those people need to be filtered out and if you as a rl dont do that you will be blamed for it (besides the mage himself).