Post Race to World First Q&A

[@seantaylor532]

Blizzard needs to decide if they want to be a factor in the RTWF. This current trend where they are clearly invested in it but don’t want to take any responsibility is weak. They need to either be a part of it or just stay out like they used to. They say they don’t want to make decisions that only effect 50 players but then are sitting there giving out massive nerfs mid race and even mid pull in this case.

[@johnwarner4178]

Well said, either it’s an official thing or stay the F out of it and stop basing anything on it

[@keithb6344]

That would mean they couldn’t make changes to the bosses during RWF, which is still them being involved with it. It’s a no win.

[@Turnkey_BM]

I am done watching the races at this point. Taking the race out of the players hands sucked the life straight out of it.

[@TheOriginalCameron]

I wonder if they realize the RTWF is having a negative effect on their game. They're focusing on things only the top ten guilds are doing in order to give themselves a bad name.

[@billymays9296]

They only nerfed it so the Guilds didn't have to raid over Christmas again. Echo was 1 day off the kill at most without nerfs, which means killing it on the 24th. Had nothing to do with RWF

[@sarahparrish7206]

Big fan of the RTWF competition, I follow the race whenever I get the chance and while I call myself a Liquid fan (purely for the killer commentary) I always love to see the neck-and-neck fights and massive props to Echo for winning. The race would certainly be way more boring without either guild. Love to see everyone involved playing their best no matter what.

[@AshidoAsh]

I freaking LOVED watching your kurog prog. Seeing the gradual progression of the boss health% and how adds went from barely dieing to just melting in p1/p2 in combination with absurd healing requirements (Other bases had as well, but as a viewer I feel like kurog showcased them the most to me as a viewer).

[@Djim0101]

I like this open/eloberate QA, i am an Echo fan myself. But always nice to see some serious competition, hope the next race blizz makes nerfs later/on a more balanced timing for both competitors.

[@merkur69]

Na, it was okay, imagine echo couldnt kill it for the next 7 hours and liquid kills in 16h and echo stand up ?

[@ВиталийСозонов-ш3ш]

@@merkur69 That would have been better honestly. I agree that there is not a perfect time to nerf a boss but both teams should have had some pulls on nerfed boss. This timing was pretty awful.

[@merkur69]

@@ВиталийСозонов-ш3ш i mean im basically with u but when i think about the vaultloot privilege im pretty ok with it :P

[@veonoev]

loved watching RTWF between you and echo, was a bit of an anticlimactic ending but love that there is such a tight race between na and eu

[@moldgrim1]

Method and BDGG replicated the race for 3rd, giving us even more action. Loved it!

[@richtea7868]

@@moldgrim1 yep and EU won that race as well!

[@thelegendarydeikay3071]

@@richtea7868 wait do people actual watch rwf xd

[@Homievegetable]

Dose max not know the na get the raid almost a full day ahead for eu?

[@kasperd131]

It's only tight because of NA is so hugely favored.. imagine if they startet at the same time and the Start was EU prime time... It would not even be a race for first, but a race for 3rd or 4th

[@Yattayatta]

Hey max! I have a suggestion for the splits, if you put up a banner saying "We are currently doing splits for gear, we expect to start Mythic roughly 18:00 on Wednesday" I think it would help viewership. Good luck in the next race!

[@semi6544]

It would do the opposite. It would be very convenient for you who suggested this. Some people show up and wonder what is going on. They either leave on their own or enjoy the casters and stick around. If there was a banner saying we aren't currently doing the mythic raid people would read the banner and leave without consuming anything that might keep them around. Mr. Beast says never post anything that encourages people to leave or tell your audience that you are broadcasting anything that isn't worth seeing. You would be providing reasons and excuses for the audience to watch something else. The banner would be very good for you who knows exactly what you want but bad for maybe retaining others who are just curious.

[@Yattayatta]

@@semi6544 I think if you just show up for the content (I'm one of those people) you don't care what they are doing, so the banner won't discourage you. But if you are there for the race, you will know when the mythic part might be starting so you can tune back in instead of just shutting down the stream and not coming back.

[@semi6544]

@@Yattayatta -- I agree. That is what I said in maybe too many words. It just isn't good for the broadcasters or their advertisement partners.

[@betelgeux6010]

@@semi6544 what are splits

[@semi6544]

@@betelgeux6010 -- So, the mythic race is what everyone is tuning in to watch. In order to win the race, you need enough good gear to compete. You get the gear by running as many instances of the normal raid and heroic raid as efficiently possible. In these lower level raids, you funnel gear to the characters that are going to be in the final mythic raid. After you have run enough splits to where you believe you have enough item level to win, then you begin the actual mythic race. A lot of people learn from the splits as well because most people watching don't compete in the mythic level. The splits are content most of the viewers actually do themselves. They just don't do them as specifically as a World First competitive guild is doing them with strategies like armor stacking and funneling loot. This is my opinion of it someone else may explain it differently.

[@lukasnorie]

iirc one of the analysts of echo said that the perfect pull they had for their kill would've been sub 2% prenerf, and that pull was just absolutely insanely clean, like you can't really wish for a better pull than that.

[@Liftheavy85]

It's easy to say that with p3 nerfs. For all we know someone might have got one shot in p3 prior to the nerfs.

[@supergaga1712]

@@Liftheavy85 final nerf did not affect anything priori to p3…

[@shruikan4549]

@@supergaga1712 he said in p3 not prior to p3

[@TM-bo8kj]

@@supergaga1712 Read what he said again

[@supergaga1712]

@@TM-bo8kj my bad boys I fucked up indeed However both guilds went deep into p3 prior to nerfs, so unless with a godlike pull where they find 6-8 extra %…

[@CowOfGlory]

After every RTWF, I always think the same thing. "Why doesn't blizzard just put out a vague pre established schedule on when they will deploy a nerf, if it's needed". What I mean by this is, they put out a schedule that says "If we need to nerf a boss, it will happen between xtime - xtime (Insert timezone) on any given day. Obviously other hotfixes may happen, but bosses shouldn't be touched outside of their scheduled time (to the best of their ability). This would allow teams to (In the very least) have some idea of when a nerf MAY happen, and can somewhat schedule around possible nerfs, and would be able to safely take breaks, (and sleep) without the worry of nerfs randomly happening.

[@IBISMK1]

You guys in Liquid and Echo just played so fucking good dude. Such a tight race it was exciting af!!!! You guys are very inspiring, so much so, I never raided before and started playing wow in bfa (never played an rpg or mmo) and after your 8.3 race it inspired me to LEAD a heroic raid and kill N'zoth for the AOTC mount (no one would accept me with almost no io score). You guys fuckin rock man! Edit: "NUGGIES" 💯

[@TheLeroy125]

I liked the bit on "no one sounding the alarm in the middle of the night to show up to raid" Seems like people don't understand focusing for 8+ hours straight on a boss fight is something that mentally and physically tires you out, your body needs to decompress and reset. Even if you had a crew like that, if they woke you all up in the middle of the night with no proper rest, you'd be putting in bad attempts cause people's brains would still be fried

[@sethnordin1562]

One of my best friends started playing in bfa s4, picked fire mage, and was top damage in his raid team and got CE before the end of season. Madness.

[@Dilllll26]

Wow he must have been an insane player to top damage on fire mage in bfa s4 :O

[@sethnordin1562]

@@Dilllll26 He was parsing like 95% of fire mages haha

[@sethnordin1562]

@@Dilllll26 But fair point

[@beeman4266]

Some people just pick up wow really fast. There's also so many good guides, if you're a new player and wanna be good just look at logs and guides. There's some really good players who are top tier players and they didn't start till a year or two ago. Growl is one of the top m+ healers and didn't start until BfA.

[@sethnordin1562]

@@beeman4266 Yeah, I introduced him to subc, raidbots, and warcraft logs, and he flew with it.

[@senhorkorracha]

Half of my entertainment during this tier was watching people raving in the chat about how boring the stream is when comms are muted. So many hot takes!

[@knallow_]

Well that goes to show you how boring the stream gets when it’s muted that you had to watch chat just to keep up.

[@thezacgorac]

How would feel about taking RWF to a tournament realm? Like give everyone heroic gear on the roster and consumables and going to town from day 1. This would get rid of splits, allow everyone to start on the same playing field, and just let it go. All the RNG would be in the loot dropping from mythic bosses, and it would be more skill.

[@p51mustang24]

I feel like that kinda breaks the immersion of playing an MMO. Feels inorganic.

[@Pixelsdg1]

The best action blizzard couldnhave taken was to just announce the raid nerf ahead of the actual nerf. Then the teams can prepare and go in as fairly as possible

[@billymays9296]

Doesn't matter, because of time difference, the timing will never be fair.

[@sike024]

@@billymays9296 but it's still better than waking up to the race being over.

[@Pixelsdg1]

@Billy Mays it would matter a great deal. Echo can choose when to raid. If they want to oull the boss while liquid sleep, or prepare for the nerf by chilling or doing some m+ or whatever. Liquid know that it's coming and can do the same. Even 24hours notice is a significant Improvent over nothing

[@KirkpatrickSounds]

@@Pixelsdg1 I could be wrong but pretty sure they all got 2 hours notice.

[@Pixelsdg1]

@@KirkpatrickSounds im talking like 24hours, not that it matters honestly. its just a bit of a shame. Like max said nothing would be ideal

[@Sammysapphira]

I think we can all agree that an overtuned boss is better than an undertuned boss. I think the mythic encounter designer is still mortified after what happened in Emerald Nightmare.

[@stuff4812]

Harder raids have no proof of being better than easier raids basing off of popularity. Vanilla through wrath had way easier raids compared to the raids afterwards but the game was increasing in popularity until it reached a peak in wrath

[@kencho02]

@@stuff4812 vanilla through wrath was way harder for that time as guilds needed more than 3 months to clear. Nowadays, we have this thing we didn't have back then, Information, ptr and everything.

[@Mr91Jmay]

@Nightbless and players are far better. Also every raid after BWL went on PTR

[@kencho02]

@@Mr91Jmay it's like, people got better at a game they Play on a daily basis...

[@KilljoyizUMP]

Weird question, so hall of Fame is a guild achievement does everyone in the guild get that title or only the people that were in the 20 man group that got the kill?

[@jamesconley1746]

if you kill the boss why your in the guild at any time and you have the rep you get the title

[@Gylfie70]

I always enjoy watching this group in the race, wished for a different outcome but was still fun and I hope the group gets over the heartbreak.

[@nolabets3130]

Nah they are salty whiners, worst losers

[@caspermatthiesen2434]

I agree I cheered for these guys - so fun when the outsider wins - but I knew this would be the outcome unfortunately - skills always beat luck in the end

[@dungeonmasterdave1617]

The simple solution is, let the raiders nerf the boss. Obviously in a more mechanical and limited strategic raid. Like you get 4 nerfs per reset. Use them wisely. And blizz just tunes boss so you need to use some nerfs on second to last boss.

[@PharaohofAtlantis]

Heartbreaker of an end to the race but I still enjoyed watching it. Rooting for Liquid in the future to tie back up the score in the recent races. This one was so close the entire way through.

[@TheRikuideFurame]

It's 3-1 Echo at this point. But close race so we'll see what 10.1 brings.

[@PharaohofAtlantis]

@@TheRikuideFurame I am counting Nyalotha. As (as far as I know) it was when got competitive. But regardless, love watching the race when it's close.

[@Hunchojk]

@@PharaohofAtlantisagreed

[@TheRikuideFurame]

@@PharaohofAtlantis Nah, they (Limit/Liquid) were competitive throughout BFA. Hell they may have taken WF on Uldir, but iirc they were forced to extend their lockout rather than reset due to raiders' schedules. Including the competitive period would put it 6-2 in Echo's favour.

[@billymays9296]

The entire Echo roster used to be Method after HFC. The only person who didn't become part of Echo was Sco. All of Method's World Firsts after HFC are technically Echo's. The score is nowhere near tied.

[@crazyblade9441]

as for the tier piece/split changes, change the day for mythic reset from the rest, mythic opens on thursday, now you got 2 days to be a degen and no one can say anything about it.

[@billymays9296]

Except EU reset is on Wednesdays, so I guess they only get 1 day of splits?

[@jonteguy]

Tuning bosses live is really annoying but then again they kind of have to since the reset timers/patch-day are different for EU and NA. This is the only way the two would get the fix at the actual same time. Echo played amazing, you guys played amazing. This was a lot closer than the other races recently. Keep it up! For tuning bosses I believe they use simulations, that is probably where things go wrong because it is very hard to simulate human error. Cheers

[@davidstirk164]

this is true and NA technically get more time on the race which is an advantage

[@justinmarzan8599]

@@davidstirk164 how does na get more time?

[@davidstirk164]

@@justinmarzan8599 you think people in the eu are playing at 4am in the morning on Wednesday Over a mid day reset Tuesday reset for na ?

[@justinmarzan8599]

@@davidstirk164 ppl? No. Echo? They could make it work. Whether they do or not is irrelevant because if you raid 16 hours a day it doesn't really matter when reset is. If reset for them really is 5am on Wednesday, say they wake up and get going around 8-9 am then 16 hours later they go to sleep at midnight. Do that for 7 days and just because the reset hits a few hours before they wake up doesn't mean they get less time.

[@davidstirk164]

@@justinmarzan8599 I mean it does and it’s been proven lmao people are sleeping at different times

[@jeffbateman238]

I thought of a question after the fact of watching. Well 2 questions, one as a RWF guild do you have dedicated crafters to supply the team with items? Not just food and flasks, but armor or weapons or is crafted gear irrelevant to the race. Second you said that people who have played for years are “set at where they are”, do you believe people can’t advance or that they are unwilling to make the effort? If you answer great, also love the channel. Your points of view are great. Love the team as well, good day.

[@Toucansam46]

I really think the best way for Blizzard to handle this situation was to tell you ahead of time they were going to nerf the boss that way maybe you wouldn’t have stayed up until the early hours of the morning pulling the boss. Could have got some sleep and warmed up while waiting on the nerd

[@mranderson4001]

So unfortunate

[@pelo177]

Echo actually starting a few hours later and just focusing on gearing while watching Liquid waste time pulling unkillable bosses makes their whole progression through mythic so much more efficient. I think it makes up for starting a few hours late in a BIG way. It was smart from Echo but it sucks seeing Liquid lose after doing all the work getting 7/8 world first.

[@billymays9296]

If this were actually a viable start that either guild would WANT to do, then Liquid would just do more splits and wait for Echo to start clearing.

[@TR-wy2hj]

Although it didn't matter, I loved the question re: pre-raid class/spec changes and how that could impact the raid.

[@nSnowCrow]

What I don't understand is Blizzards information policy. Why don't they give an information like: We want to adjust the difficulty of encounter xyz and we plan on implementing this at xx:xx UTC with maintenance/server restart.

[@mrs.alienrope5778]

do you wish blizzard woulve told you about the nerf to make it more fair and even and at the same time? would you rather have the raid start after the holidays so there would be less changes and nerfs to beat before the holidays? do you think blizzard could have shut down the boss and told everyone at same time and then released it on a set time that worked for the top 2 raid teams so both knew at same time and could start raiding same time?

[@stevenguerrero7767]

I found a lot of respect for Maximum in this discussion. He was upset, but understanding. Why, though, don't people look at how many pulls it took a guild after a nerf, no matter when it happened, and declare them the winner? If Echo killed it within 3 pulls after the nerf but Liquid did it in 2 pulls when they finally woke up, didn't they respond better to the nerf? Of course if any guild just rips a strat from whomever killed the boss first than that's not an appropriate measure.

[@tobiaswasser120]

That race was great to watch apart from those nerfs, thanks for the show!

[@gotg4775]

It's pretty simple, do boss nerfs as mid-week fixes with 2 day warnings.

[@danielreece6332]

I’m confused here. Didn’t Blizz notify both team in advance of this nerf? I’ve heard it said there was notice

[@tidgney]

I normally watch the RWF but the second I saw splits I couldn't be bothered I had no clue what was going on and why... tuned in for the last boss though. I haven't played WoW in ages either but I do like the RWF.

[@maggimaster]

There's splits every race

[@tidgney]

@@maggimaster splits used to be the week before. So I'd tune in when mythic started.

[@nurvus4078]

Any changes that can affect RWF should always be announced properly with enough advance - at least 2 days notice.

[@michaelkennielsen1422]

2 days is like half the raid tier :p

[@senX]

i watched you raid after echo killed it and was sincerely impressed with the mood of you guys, the voice was kinda fun still, you went for it and finished the job. im from eu, yet i think u deserved it every bit as much as echo. probably no "real" winner this tier in my opinion

[@wowsecretsyt]

Super insightful video. Thanks for sharing.

[@needsanameedit4982]

I had fun watching this race, mostly just watched your stream. It was fine watching splits as you were leading a team while doing it. I do wish that you had more unmuted talks between pulls and the timing of ads(even with a gifted sub) meant that I was better off watching the VoD for the talking between pulls.

[@karadinx]

Yea, the multiple days of splits isn't why I don't like watching the streams. It's the 5 or 6 back to back ads in the middle of pulls that make me leave lol.

[@KnallenN]

Could they not have said that they are rolling out the nerf *this day at this time*, like a day before they implement the nerd so all teams get a chance to sleep well before the nerfs hit, and then you could possibly have a close end of the race with both teams doing pulls at the same time?

[@billymays9296]

They decided on the nerf that day, then announced it, then implemented it. How can they announce it before deciding on it?

[@lukasnielsen2839]

@@billymays9296 annonce after they have decided. They were not forced to implement it immediately after announcing, they could have easily given at 5-6 hour warning allowing for a more even playing field between the top two competitors.

[@KnallenN]

@@billymays9296 they could decide on nerfing. say "hey in 12 hours we are nerfing this boss. Get ready"?

[@xaoc6084]

@@lukasnielsen2839 I think it’s a catch 22, if they waited 5-6 hours wasn’t that when Echo would be logging off? It’s definitely a complex one.

[@lukasnielsen2839]

@@xaoc6084 then dont wait that long, or nerf the boss a day after... Blizzard wanted the boss dead before christmas and so they nerfed it while one team was not even competing. Echo played better on Raza, but we will never now if they would have won fair and square, and I think that sucks for both Liquid and Echo.

[@ioannisvogiatzis]

We're they notified about the nerf 2 hours before or not?

[@sheeeeeeesh6021]

Ngl I definitely watched an hour of splits then never turned it back on.

[@jusuzippol]

What about delaying the tier bonus stuff by 2ish weeks to make splits less impactful?

[@michaelell389]

As someone who hasn't raided WoW in ages (since WoTLK) but has been raiding FFXIV recently. Why is the question of WHEN the boss will be tuned even a factor? Shouldn't Blizzard be shooting for as minimal tuning to the boss as possible PRIOR to releasing it and starting the WF race?

[@myl3n]

loser pov is always so entertaining

[@kylemanno903]

It is about funding somewhat. There are a lot of talented individuals out there that can definitely show out in WF that have to hold down a job year round. WF takes a lot of time and the lower down the brackets the more work it is. Some supplemented income would help even if it paid two weeks wages. Eventually some whale is going to throw up a ton of money to buy a WF team.

[@KhandeeTV]

Wouldn't communicating to the teams that are in the lead their intent to make you all aware? Then if they decide to do it in the middle of the night for you, you have the option to be awake and ready. I understand timezones present a challenge. But I believe Blizzard could do a better job of communicating those hot fixes.

[@me-yh2kb]

Could someone who has recently started playing WoW become good enough to compete at your level? Or does experience in previous raid tiers create a gap too large to overcome?

[@mrnoidea1009]

He answered that question in the video, but yes it would be possible.

[@SaltyMaud]

It definitely happens, but it takes a certain kind of mentality to reach high level of play in _any_ timeframe. Always be looking to improve, never settle for _good enough,_ even if you're already the best player in the guild at say world 100 level - your best is the average at world 20 and worse than the worst at RWF. That, and being in a position in your life where you can put everything on hold for weeks at a time to solely focus on a videogame.

[@knallow_]

Absolutely you can. You just gotta start low and build up. Once you find a good guild to call home, that’s when it all starts.

[@beeman4266]

Pretty sure they had a warlock last tier that had only recently started playing. But yeah they definitely can. There's quite a few of the best players right now that have only played for a couple years, especially in m+.

[@konsequence9752]

congrats you got the shit end of the stick and told "OOPS, WERE SORRY"

[@bambuco2]

I mean sure, it would have sucked for whoever. But they could have announced the nerfs at least a day prior to implementation, so you could have time to plan around it.

[@donut_s]

Doesn’t matter when they nerf it if they just give a 24 hour warning. Gives all teams time to adjust no matter their time zone.

[@billymays9296]

You're a donut, so I understand that this is hard for you to grasp, but here goes. They got into work at normal NA work hours, saw that boss wasn't killable before Christmas (24th/25th), and decided to nerf it. Then they announced it, then they implemented it. It's not like they decided to nerf Raszageth on the 3rd of April 1986.

[@donut_s]

@@billymays9296 You realize that they can apply the hotfix any time they want right? They could have said on the morning of the 23rd (Thursday) they would be nerfing it on the morning of the 24th (Friday). Instead they announced it 2 hours before the hotfix went live. Actual lukewarm iq comment by you. Time zones dont matter at all if everyone can plan around it. You realize that the global release of the expansion was midnight for EU and Echo was awake doing stuff all night. Not sure what you are missing here.

[@Sandz_]

@@billymays9296 shit take

[@TheAssirra]

@@donut_s But they didn't know it had to be nerfed at that point. That is the thing. They only realized it required a nerf after Echo got to that point.

[@Devydoesgaming]

Remember when they removed a mechanic from Anduin after yall killed it?

[@WatchMeLearnIt]

I will say, the race was slightly difficult to watch this year. I never knew if I would be watching splits for hours or progression. I would say this is definitely correlated to mythic starting week 1

[@Phyr123]

Great takes. Fantastic video. Thank you.

[@Crenshaw41]

If blizzard cares about the race then they could just announce changes like a day early or probably even less given that these guilds are playing all day

[@Kalamazii]

Buff Warlock

[@Sc0pez13]

We actually need it 🤣

[@Poooopdollar]

TRUE

[@skoverton5553]

Said it once said it a thousand times. Echo gets a free walk mentally all the way to the last few bosses with Liquid making all the Strats and showing how to kill. This tier Echo didn’t have to really make an original strat until P2 of Raz. Like Liquid not only needs to be cracked but also play so well that they can beat a fresher Echo. time advantage hurts more than it helps with bad tuning

[@TheOriginalCameron]

100%. Liquid "tests" the bosses that Blizzard hasn't even killed in development. Then goes to sleep, awaiting bug fixes, Echo gets them with the strats, and Liquid wakes up and keeps attempting where Echo didn't have to try as hard because of tougher boss fights.

[@kye4216]

If its so much better to start later why dont Liquid just wait and start at the same time as Echo?

[@sr7olsniper]

@@kye4216this is such a dumb take. It’s race to world first if none kills it it would not get nerfed. What you are suggesting is both guilds farm gear until BDDG or Method gets to Raz and then you have the same issue.

[@TheOriginalCameron]

@@kye4216 Probably circadian rhythms of 25 players

[@kye4216]

@@sr7olsniper and if that was the best thing to do they would both do it. They’re both playing to win the race not entertain. The reason they don’t is because the head start is better.

[@Rubiksguy]

Regarding your comments at the end: can you make a video describing what makes classes good or bad in fights/tiers? Been playing wow since LK and keep hearing things like that. Ex: What makes a warlock shit in a fight compared to other ranged?

[@nevoyu]

Warlocks are great against mobs that allow them time to ramp up their damage. While a fight with lots of adds that need killed their much weaker in. This isn't because of how bad their aoe dps is. But a matter of when their dps peaks. Basically firebolt+firebolt does more immediate damage per cast compared to haunt+corruption+agony

[@thundernuts9283]

Casual Viewpoint .. Liquid is a team of kids, coming across as entitled and elite, Echo comes across as a team of Adults, who could easily converse with you if met randomly in any Con. Professionalism plays a part in attitude and Echo showed this winning yet again.

[@NeoChromer]

TBF I don't think Liquid would win even without the nerfs, echo was like sooo much ahead.. just look how much liquid needed to kill the boss after the nerfs..

[@Malfeasance1]

I have to wonder how badly viewership was affected by the absurd amount of ads Twitch runs now. I tuned into Max's stream at one point and even with a ~90% functional adblocker it was basically unwatchable due to the quality dipping whenever ads got blocked. I don't think the stream went more than 10 minutes tops without a new set of ads, and it was more frequent than that most of the time.

[@pacmonkruz9846]

Losing the first place sucks but you guys still achieve what many players have not done yet , and was morale that caused you guys to kill it hours after that hot fix ?

[@KnallenN]

what addon changes the dragonriding bar?

[@raguru1032]

It’s a Weakaura, I forget the name.

[@KnallenN]

@@raguru1032 i actually found it after i started llooking for weakauras instead of addons. Thanks anyway! :)

[@zarbostv6560]

I think bad viewership was also due to christmas, people are busy that month or not home

[@OddArcade]

couldnt you guys agree to raid same times, seems like it would save a lot of problems and create an amazing neck and neck

[@tocu98]

Once both guilds were at razagath Blizzard should have dropped a statement "we want to ensure our devs have a chance to enjoy the Holidays so we will be dropping a nerf to ensure the raid is completed to help complete that goal, we will provide a likely final nerf at this date and time that can meet those goals" by having days to know this was coming than it helps there isnt as much feel bad. I think everyone reasonable agree with the last few years of finding out the poor treatment of the employees that there is extra reason to make sure their devs are taken care of.

[@golvmoppski]

not even on razagath , just make the whole dang thing come out on the same time for everyone, and not make the US have a one day advantage

[@Slixor]

"after the nerd the boss was free" >Proceeds to need an additional 4 hours to kill the boss after the nerf when Echo killed it in ONE PULL. Get back to reality Max, you were beaten fair and square.

[@ivonbeton4725]

Also, I remember Max saying that it's just part of the race and something you have to accept last time changes mid-race negatively impacted European guilds.

[@ElaineThompson]

Good on you for not trying to second-guess hindsight. Both your guild and Echo were playing really well and congrats on putting up such a fierce fight. it was unconscionable for Blizzard to throw the competition and do a Christmas Eve nerf without giving both guilds enough notice to adjust plans around the nerf. The whole game release this time around was ill-considered. I wish they had launched the game in mid-December so we could level and chill over Christmas and started S3 after New Year's. Launching the day after Thanksgiving was just a bizarre choice, as was releasing S3 right before everyone (apparently including Blizzard) wanted to spend time getting ready for Christmas and traveling.

[@synchrogods]

I like the world first race but i don´t like how it´s managed. Imo, they should do it like the MDI. Own servers, every piece of gear available and then let pure skill and preparation decide who wins.

[@conniptions3069]

It was a real anticlimactic way to end the race. Blizzard really botched the enjoyment as a viewer too with the balancing since I also felt cheated watching Dathea. It was just a real downer vibe in all chats. I believe that Liquid will approach next race differently seeing how they got punished multiple times for very logical actions without hindsight. Edit: Both teams did great, I agree that Echo pulled better in general. But it just sucks for everyone involved including the audience.

[@gloobs988]

I found the end really enjoyable, the nerf was really overstated echo killed the boss way before the enrage purely because that pull was insane, there was no way of seeing just how much the nerf came into play just because of the timing of god pull + nerf

[@conniptions3069]

​@@gloobs988 I agree, wasnt over-nerfed since liquid didn't get it instantly. It also sucks for Echo since that pull is soured by the nerf. I just think the Race as a whole was brought down by the poor tuning and I lost interest on the final days.

[@danielbeshers1689]

I just want to put my two cents in that Max is an incredible competitor, displays exceptional maturity and is an excellent role model for non-toxic contention and sportsmanship. I encourage both my kids to look to him as an example of how a man behaves in both success and shortfall.

[@deathi]

they should after nerf close the raid for a day or until next reset having all teams agree on a time for the raid to be opened so its skill based and not based on when its nerfed

[@ShinPG]

They need to just not tune bosses so badly… the nerfs are literally the worst part of the RWF every time. All the other factors are minor in comparison imo

[@Radassbadass69]

What is that speedometer addon you got?

[@SwedetasticGames]

Diurna being so perfectly tuned to Week 1 gear was funny when all the other bosses needed tweaking, but holy shit that fight looked sick with that tight tuning.

[@b1ggi]

max on asia: "I'm not flaming, I'm just saying"

[@harryb7661]

Absolutely fair take there, sadly it came down to nerf timing. Either one could have taken this home, hopefully next tier we can see a more predictable and competitive end to the race.

[@BruceCruce]

To be completely fair no. Its not fun to admit but echo killed it in one try after the nerf, this simply wasn't the case for liquid.

[@caspermatthiesen2434]

Yeah as Bruce said - that is a bullshit take - it took them like 5 hours still after nerf - we could talk about this if they had killed it after 2-3 pulls

[@Blu3monster]

Hotfixes like that should be scheduled imo... no sense in randomly dropping it like they did. This should be said to someone in blizzard.

[@sssembler]

wasnt random, it was announced hours before - and again, makes no difference, Liquid took hours after to kill - echo one shot it.

[@Blu3monster]

@@sssembler you mean they announced it while one team was sleeping and the other was already working? Also, you mean the team that had been pulling it for hours killed it first try after nerf; meanwhile the other team woke up to defeat and didn't kill it first try while dealing with warming up, sense of defeat, and tilt from finding out the other team killed it cause it got nerfed while they were asleep? Are those conditions you would find acceptable for a competitive environment? I want to be clear I'm not defending Liquid... I just would appreciate a fair and level playing field.

[@axey7476]

Regardless of outcome I love tuning into your streams during the RWF You guys did awesome👍 Next tier you guys will get #1 for sure

[@GoobTV1]

kap

[@caspermatthiesen2434]

They won't - Echo is just a level better than them - and this video is just a scrambling to try to hide that fact - but don't worry I don't see them losing the 2nd place

[@phillipivey4833]

@@caspermatthiesen2434 Echo was better ? They needed a nerf to a boss to happen while Liquid wasn't playing just to get 1 WF this tier.

[@caspermatthiesen2434]

@@phillipivey4833 Liquid needed the exact same nerf for their kill - Echo got the kill the pull after - Liquid used 4 hours on the nerfed version - I wonder who was the closest to the kill before?

[@phillipivey4833]

@@caspermatthiesen2434 Uh...are you dense ? That doesn't matter. The fact that the nerf came when one guild was raiding and one wasn't is what matters. Saying "Liquid took 4 hours on the nerfed version" is uneducated as well. Blizzard made guilds aware what nerf was coming but didn't say when. Echo prepared for the nerf to hit. Liquid had zero preparation for it because they were still asleep. They literally handed Echo their only world first of the tier.

[@thegamerfromhell10]

If Blizzard wanted Raszageth dead before the holidays then why did they release the raid mid December!?!? Feel like the expansion could have benefitted from a December launch and a January raid release

[@patrick2657]

Would it make sense to have mythic open on Thursday or Friday the first week? It would take it off the reset let the race happen on a set day after splits and even for a lot of non rwf guilds going into heroic before mythic would be helpful or they are already doing that anyways.

[@oneaxetwofriends3527]

I think that i would be great if Blizz could notify gilds who are pulling boss that is going to be nerfed in 24h before hotfix. As i see it is 2-3 guilds all the time. I think if should be that hard for a huge company.

[@golvmoppski]

adn at the same time make it so both guilds go in on even play playfields and not make one have a time advantage

[@oneaxetwofriends3527]

@@golvmoppski yeap, same as it would be on any other competitive scene, when teams from all over the world are stacked together at one place, an they play at time when others playing. As blizz can't collect all top10 guilds together for fair play, at least they can notify them about hotfixes.

[@sethharrison2284]

How can they internal test, beta test, and still get it so wrong? Even for non-RWF raiders, these types of constant changes are just not good for the game. This should be a priority to fix

[@Slashresto]

I must say as usual the endboss got alittle boring to watch when honestly the most wipes happened in P1 and not so much in later phases. I absolutely loved watching Kurog and Broodkeeper aswell as Tero and Sennarth i wish they would have lived another 30-40 pulls respectively and that the race was actually gradually getting harder intead of all the hard bosses were all in the 60-80 pull range and all easy bosses 1-15 instead of making the first 2 bosses 1-15 pull bosses then next 2 are 40-50 next 2 80-100 and last 2 are 150-200 pulls. Anyway sad to see nerfs ending the race but it must still be far better to end the race before xmas for everyone to get home to their familys intime and be 2nd then to raid over xmas and maybe still end up 2nd!

[@FireSignd]

Whats insane is how far Echo and Liquid are ahead of the other RWF guilds like Method or BDGG

[@matt566]

nobody else really raids nonstop I'm sure many other hall of fame guilds raiding nonstop could put up some competition maybe with some coalescing of talent but they choose not to raid nonstop for 2 weeks they just raid like 16 hours.

[@FireSignd]

@@matt566 Most of the top 10 puts in similar hours, Method for example didnt even take a break for Christmas. Its just facts that Echo and Liquid are miles ahead of any other guild. Time investment is a huge part of world first raiding, and now that everything is streamed all other guilds just copy the tactics of those two anyways.

[@TheRabidSniper]

ALL they needed to do was give everyone advance notice that a fix was coming, and post the exact time it would go live, say 24 hours in advance. Give guilds notice; let them make the choice themselves.

[@MongoIndyleo]

Max was talking about how he doesn't want salary caps and other sports-y stuff. I'm sure Max realizes this, but he literally has the power to become the NFL of the RWF if he gets echo on board. He could just sit down with Scripe one day and hash out some kind of charter to make the race more competitive. Player caps and maybe designated stop and start times with specific instructions for resets and/or nerfs. Invite the other guilds like Method and BDGG to be involved if they want but if not then who cares. I wouldn't be surprised if something like this happens since Blizzard has really messed up the last few races when it comes to the community.

[@zzxxccvv01]

There is no shot it happens when the raid is once every 6 months for 2-3weeks. There is a lot of other problems as well but this is a main one

[@WelsyCZ]

6:20 - There were nerfs which benefited one or the other, but its important to say that no other nerfs than Raza mattered, since it was not killable without reset.

[@billymays9296]

It was. Echo had the exact same thing on Sylvanas, they needed to find 5% out of somewhere, and they did (before reset) they would have found this missing dmg too.

[@sssembler]

liquid took many hours and pulls after the nerf to kill it, Echo one shot it. Difference in skill is clear.

[@TheAssirra]

Echo straight up went against a wall for a whole day that they knew was unkillable. To say it didn't matter is laughable.

[@SmegmaDaddyXL]

not only the nerf for the kill but also the transition add nerf kind of a big loss for liquid. when you passed on doing splits to get an early lead on progress but you end up spending an entire raid night on an unbeatable dps check and lose the lead you were banking on because blizzard can't release a properly tuned raid fight without making tuning changes during the event.

[@Index-us8ge]

I really felt like Echos gearing system was a bit extreme in manipulating the trade rules. I think the 2 hr timer should continue to tick when offline. It felt super bad to have them gear how they did, then use liquid strats to catch up. I’d love to see blind v blind progressions.

[@seifyk]

I certainly tuned out when it was muted.

[@michaelroberts6836]

I mean couldn't they have been more vocal about the upcoming change and found a better time to implement the hotfix? There has to be an in between time that involves guilds could make work

[@sssembler]

it would not have made a difference, Liquid did not kill it for hours after. Echo one shot it.

[@thomaskruger547]

38:50 when it was about tierlist and what should get a nerf. havoc s tier. A bit later It's not that good. :D

[@thunderdex8679]

razageth legit the only fight with shields in vault best fight for deva

[@johnl9763]

Imagine if at kickoff of the Superbowl, they started 2 days of training camp. You wouldn't watch that. It's important. They need to do it. Butr we don't want to watch it.

[@vegardkjrberg1929]

If warlocks were so bad then why did I see splat be like top 5 dmg almost all the time? Echo also had locks very high up, but ofc nobody beat gingi when mages are busted.

[@daveo7664]

My thought is that they screwed up really bad on the tuning, but not only that they were insanely slow to apply the necessary nerfs when they obviously wanted it killed before christmas eve. Why did they wait to nerf the adds by 50% for an entire day when it was obvious to everyone that it was undoable. They were a bit quicker on the shield nerf, but still slow (same with knockback nerf too). If they had done those on time, then they could have been much more careful with the final phase nerfing and not overshot it just to get it dead before time ran out. A big L for Blizzard. I think you guys did great and I much prefer watching your streams, but I also agree Echo probably played a little better on Raz. But it was anyones game if Blizz didn't let it play out so badly.

[@ProConClay]

What time did they nerf it?

[@FaenorOW]

was like 10 am

[@ProConClay]

@@FaenorOW utc?

[@FaenorOW]

@@ProConClay LA time i believe

[@Schumdog1]

They could have been awake earlier, completely own fault

[@FaenorOW]

@@Schumdog1 tbf they didnt oversleep, they just assumed there would be maintenance and had a different schedule

[@MegamanGaming]

The one thing I appreciate the most with this video is how you selectively seem to censor the F word. lmao

[@FaenorOW]

The nerf timing was perfect tbh if they assumed you start raiding at reset. The nerf warning should have been given earlier though

[@billymays9296]

How? They gave the warning early at the start of NA workday. They can't be expected to do it when they are asleep.

[@FaenorOW]

@@billymays9296 Cant exept them to time it perfectly for each teams current schedule that varies from default. Liquid took a risk by starting later by guessing there would be long maintenance and it didnt pay off. Thats why i said the notice should have been longer in order for them to prepare without guesswork

[@dustybookshelves2948]

The thing is... they wouldn't have made that assumption after a week & a half of knowing when Liquid was in the raid. Blizz put the nerf in at a time the guild never raided at any point this tier. I'm wholly sympathetic to the predicament Blizz was in with the holidays, but you're right that they needed to give more notice. They put in a RWF-ending adjustment when one guild was absolutely not scheduled to be online. Echo are formidable at any time of their raid day, late or early. The fairest time for a minimal-forewarning hotfix was when both guilds were in the raid IMO.

[@insideg4mer]

Your takes are so fucking sharp and based

[@Swiftrootsdadudu]

All they had to do was tell you WHEN they were nerfing it ahead of time.

[@LyricalLacerations]

In all honesty I would have been pissed off working over xmas as well. So I can kinda understand why blizz did it. Xmas is kinda a meh time to have a raid. Though don't feel to bad man, you guys did insanely well and only lost due to circumstance. Not to through shade at Echo's achievement, but you guys are so close in terms of skill. It could have gone either way.