Linear Bearings Vs PTFE 3D Printer

[@DavidKutzler]

I liked the fact that you showed a failed first attempt before rethinking and finding a better solution. Life tends to work that way too. I purchased the castings for the Myfordboy Steam Engine as my first "serious" project since taking up machining as a hobby about a year ago. It took four attempts before getting the crank attached to the crankshaft so that it was perfectly perpendicular to the crankshaft, but it was enormously satisfying when I got it right.

[@MrNlce30]

Great job. I just printed mine out of ABS. And reamed them out with an 8 mm drill bit. They've been in there nearly 3 years now no problem. I would also recommend a bit of Lithium grease (the white stuff is most recommended but I just use the brown). Keep up the good work.

[@edwardtaylor4785]

I am following this build just like I have followed all the others. Fantastic work and a very pragmatic approach to many problems that we all run into from time to time. In the past, I have worked with teflon bearings and, in my opinion, they will probably work OK in your application. Two things to watch out for if you experience problems; 1) Teflon creeps over time. That is, it yields to light loads and, in your application, the tendency will be for the holes to become oval over time. There are reinforced teflon alloys that are designed to overcome this tendency and, to a degree, they do. 2) Teflon has a much higher coefficient of thermal expansion than steel or any other metal that I am familiar with. In your application, where the bearings are captive in a steel tube, a bearing that's "nice" at room temp may become very tight as it warms up whether from frictional heating or being close to something warm. I'm not saying that these will certainly become problems only that, should problems arise, those things might be worth looking into Good to see that you can still keep going w/o the benefit of sleep.

[@myfordboy]

Thank you for your comments and interest. I am aware of the properties of Teflon and I mentioned in the description this was an experiment and i can always revert back to the ball bearings or try something else.

[@alexbuilder6983]

That is so cool! I am thinking of mimicking this by 3d printing a casing and lining the inside with a ptfe film.

[@SavvasPapasavva]

Such a nice material to work with. Enjoying this build.

[@DiscoverRajivVlogs]

I have an idea ,if you use a steel or any metal pipe that can cover the bearing from outside you can prevent the crushing of bearing when you mount it on the plate. If you reduce the length of bearing maybe you gonna introduce some slack/wobble to the bearing

[@leeackerson2579]

Nice work, as usual. Ignore concerns about PTFE quickly wearing, you have a very light duty application. Think of the HDPE or UHMW bushings used on race car suspensions, they are better than the factory versions and last quite a long time as well.

[@officer_baitlyn]

not sure if this applies here since i dont machine much but ventilate well when cutting up ptfe idk if the chips actually get hot but somewhere after 250C is where u gotta watchout

[@aaronbeckman]

You’re going to have an amazing printer once it’s done!

[@davidf2281]

Fascinating stuff. Please do continue with the updates!

[@overlycranked8674]

( 1:12 ) The housing for most linear Bearings have up to 1mm tolerance for the length. It's OD/ID and the bore centering that must be within one digit micron accuracy with extra care for temperature effects

[@MaturePatriot]

Great work. Always improvising improvements.

[@DocMicha]

I fear, That you might get some stick-slip effect. I know this from Igus(TM) bearings, which have a lower friction than your Teflon bearings, because they are star shaped in the boring so that only a small amount of them is touching the rod. That might bring you a more or less remarkable z-wobbling in the prints. But I am not sure for PTFE. For clamping the "plastic bearings" to much, I have the same experience as you, so the tubing around them is a good idea!

[@cybersurfer2010]

DocM I had the same with igus, changed back to lineair bearings...

[@ErrantWanderings]

I was curious about these Igus bearings you were talking about. A few people in these comments have mentioned them. The materials on their website look like reinforced PTFE or Nylon depending on the product. The coefficients of friction seem to be what I would expect from PTFE or Nylon, not superior. With Nylon on critical dimensions I sometimes worry about water absorption. Regarding the shape of the hole, I would normally think loading is more important than contact area. Though, the models I am aware of regarding friction may be leaving something out. I'm always up for learning more about mechanics. I can think of reasons to make the hole a star shape, but they don't have to do with friction.

[@DocMicha]

@@ErrantWanderings Hi, the IGUS bearings are not PTFE or Nylon. Its a special secret plastics. They seem to have in them also some metal? particles, but I am not sure. The slip stick effect is simple the effect of the two basic frictions (I hope the English translation is correct (I am form Germany): dynamic and static friction) with additional "inertance" between both, because sometimes more and sometimes less area touches the rod due to microscopic tilts. That is at least true for all bushings, but if well lubricated neglectable. In the case of the IGUS-bearings it seems there is on some printers not enough load, therefore I assume, that they increased the pressure by decreasing the area using the star shape I mentioned above. But even then, it seems, application dependent, there is for some printers the slip stick effect. It was a little too fast by me (quick an dirty) in the above post to say that the star shape is alone for friction reduction. But do not forget the second order terms in friction, where it comes to more adhesion under dry conditions (means no lubrication). So because this is a more or less complex theoretical problem, where you do not know the correct borde conditions, I think the experiment will show and who heals is right (that a German proverb. Sorry for mistakes, but we have 7:30 in the Morning and I am still awake ... But it was a nice break.

[@ErrantWanderings]

I can see how changing coefficients of friction and the stiffness of the material would impact stick-slip. I'm just trying to figure out what is special about the Igus bearing material. What I'm reading on their website doesn't make it seem that unique. The reason I mention PTFE and Nylon is that several of the "iglide" materials on the IGUS website match Nylon and PTFE in terms of elastic modulus, coefficient of friction, water absorption, service temperature, and hardness. Some of their other products appear to have similar coefficients of friction and service temperature, with other properties varied in ways that suggest composite reinforcement (stiffness, strength, hardness, and water absorption go up). They have lots of different products, I'm not sure what I'm looking for. I like to discover new things. Thanks for your quick response. Have a nice day!

[@DocMicha]

@@ErrantWanderings In my opinion the difference between Nylon and IGUS's material is the hardness. They feel much harder and denser.

[@therealchayd]

What a neat idea, thanks for the inspiration. I did buy a set of Igus linear bearings and they certainly quietened down a noisy Y axis, but they're quite pricey for just a piece of moulded plastic, these would be a perfect solution for a more DIY level machine.

[@peterl1699]

Please make a tour of all your tools. Great stuff

[@myfordboy]

Here are a couple of videos kzbin.info/www/bejne/fKHMpIuEacahfbM kzbin.info/www/bejne/oJ-2nX2bjsyMaNk

[@liscalevy]

I've heard that using hardened and chromed rails help PTFE last longer and resists sticking, but havent tried

[@Bodragon]

What would be ideal is a fixed PTFE sleeve that surrounds the steel rail. Then the PTFE linear bearing on top of this so you have PTFE sliding on PTFE. Get it?

[@myfordboy]

Good idea but difficult to make.

[@Bodragon]

@@myfordboy So there's a challenge!

[@rvoar]

I would like to try the same technique with Vesconite instead of PTFE. Well done! .

[@guythornhill5324]

Vesconite should perform better than virgin ptfe. It will have lower friction and take longer to wear out.

[@alexscarbro796]

Nice job! If you find, over time, that the PTFE creeps and becomes too loose, Igus provide their lubricant free bearing materials as bar stock. They’re also pretty good at sending free samples (I got some ~100mm x ~20mm bar material for free).

[@dip20000]

It cant get to loose on that mirror finish shaft ,and if stays lightly oiled it will not grow with humidity.

[@drpipe]

I have the Prusa mk3 and it's a great machine ..and a lot of fun to build as it was my first 3D printer..I'm also a bit of a machinist...and I have to say that was first class. Just the fact you did the fit up and it didn't work so great....so plan b ...these days many give up to soon. Great work and fantastic result. Think that will be quieter than the originals by far even tho the originals are very quiet.

[@wizard-ew5ze]

Nice , I was toying with the idea of PTFE bearings but I don't have the machining tools , and finding accurately cut tube is harder than it sounds , good job , looking forward to seeing this progress

[@ericohman]

I have manual ”hand reamers” H7 dia 6,8,10. Is that what you use in the lathe in this video? When I bought mine I noticed there are other types available, ”machine reamers” but I bought the manual ”hand reamers”

[@myfordboy]

The one in the video is a machine reamer but hand will work just as well. A hand reamer has a longer taper at the end to aid starting when held in the hand.

[@Cruto94]

Great work, love what you did there! Since I don't have to tools I'm currently trying to resin print myself some bearings but we'll see about that resistance again...

[@VikMKW]

Amazing work! Highest quality i3 style machine I've ever seen. Please keep these coming!

[@girrrrrrr2]

You should try this vs drylin bushings and see how they differ.

[@stanleydenning]

I wonder if a light coating of petroleum jelly would be worrented.

[@Zepeda3D]

I think stick slip can be ignored as the GT2 belts comes tighter and the carriages moves more and more commanded by the motor shaft rotation alone. However, some sources claim PTFE is not suitable for these application because of its high wear ratio. Some suggest PTFE carbon alloys or as such. I have yet to investigate further to see if this 'wear' is actually something to be considered or if its wear can only be shown in the degradation of this linear motion system's precision after many years after installation. There would be no problem in replacing them every two years or something. Please share your experience with PTFE wear. I found on amazon another interesting component that you could try. MDF filled nylon. Which adds to wear resistance and self lubrication to the already good for these applications nylon. Its not expensive at all. Please consider this for testing and email me your experience.

[@fuzzballdasoft5889]

What are the pros and cons ? Do they wear out faster ?

[@myfordboy]

PTFE is quieter. With hindsight I would never have a printer with these type of bearings on rods. Wheels on extrusions are much quieter and adjustable.

[@fx622b]

you should absolutely sell these, 3D printing industry is plagued by ball bearings.

[@klschofield71]

This build is coming along nicely, thanks for sharing with us. Are you going to be using "off the shelf" components for the heat bed, or have you devised away to improve upon that as well? What type of brain box are you going to be using? Since you've already put so much effort into the accuracy and quality of the construction I would recommend using silicon wire anywhere that wires have to move.

[@myfordboy]

I have the Prusa type magnetic heat bed and spring steel sheet ready to fit. Also Rambo Eincey board. One thing I have not been able to source yet is the 5v 3 wire part cooling fan. I can get it from Prusa but the shipping is 10 times the cost of the part.

[@dmitryutkin1664]

excellent work, suitable for low loads. For stronger loads, use PA6 (polyamide) impregnated with oil, very well resists wear and friction is very low.

[@kwaaaa]

I'm genuinely curious how these perform over the linear ones. I wonder if it's a manufacturing tolerance issue that they are not more widely used on 3D printers since there is not, if any, torque on these rails.

[@dip20000]

They need more precisely aligned linear shafts.

[@הובלותאחייםאבוסנינה]

we can used it with cnc router ? or for soft motion only ? thanks

[@myfordboy]

OK for printer or laser. i would not use on a CNC mill.

[@הובלותאחייםאבוסנינה]

@@myfordboy thanks

[@matthewsykes4814]

I think it depends on the longevity as to whether linear or ptfe bearings are better. Just this past week I changed out 4 sets of linears but the machines they are in work 24/7, moving every 20 seconds or so. With that sort of workload PFTE would wear out in days compared to months for linears...... But...it is food for thought.....maybe Acetal Nylon bearings would last longer than PTFE and as long as linears, depends which is cheapest from a company standpoint Great video, provoked a bit of thinking from me, which is unusual on a saturday night, hee And your lathe is so quiet.....

[@paulojrg]

Aluminium sleeves with narrower brass bushings could last longer, be quieter and still present reduced friction.

[@BirchNirga]

Wouldn't ptfe bearings be cheaper than ball bearings in the first place? Why wouldn't they just ship the thing with ptfe bearings?

[@ingwarnilsson668]

I think like DocM. With igus i always printed ovals instead of circles. The where easy to shift but ballbearings are better.

[@sypernova6969]

hey! great work on these. how are they after 2 years? still precise?

[@myfordboy]

This printer never had much use as cheaper models came on the market.

[@sypernova6969]

@@myfordboy ah i see.. this is something you designed, right. It wasnt a kit or anything? It looked rather strudy.. a potential good model.... At least a good frame. As you said though maybe rollers on rails might have been even better but .. how was the print quality?

[@myfordboy]

@@sypernova6969 It printed Ok, my design but based on Prusa.

[@julienboucaron9780]

Nice trick. There is another alternative: brass bushings. They are used mostly in Ultimaker style gantry where you need both linear and rotation motion. Did you use 8mm rods all around ?

[@lennynnnnnn]

indeed. oil impregnated www.mcmaster.com/6658k735 or go for phosphor bronze www.mcmaster.com/8971k71

[@muskokamike127]

Oh, one other point about the noisy bearings: If you are ever in the mood, buy "hiwin" chinese bearings. THey are SO SO SO much smoother and quieter than the standard chinese ones. They are more finely ground, closer tolerances, and smoother and quieter operation. I can't afford them myself, but they ARE awesome. (they are about double the price of the ones you're using). This goes for the shafts too. They are smoother and better machined too so the whole assembly is "better". Least one thing: if you wear out the nylon you can just make more haha (btw, where I live nylon is more $$ than bearings and is actually more $$ than T6 aluminum).

[@reprapmlp]

Also btw, PTFE aka Teflon is not Nylon; your other points stand.

[@AlekseyCamodelkin]

As well as mine, buy it later on your own. But it works for many years.

[@phlodel]

I noticed you switched from a 4 jaw scroll chuck to a 3 jaw. Is the 4 jaw less accurate?

[@myfordboy]

The 4 jaw is more accurate than my worn 3 jaw. I switched the chucks as I had the mandrel in the 4 jaw and I did not want to disturb it.

[@phlodel]

I understand. I have been thinking of buying a 4 jaw scroll chuck like yours for my Logan lathe. If it's terrible, maybe not.

[@magomat6756]

Its a nice journey i wait to see the first print

[@burningions]

frame?? how to make it accurate?

[@chrisdado]

Oilite up next when the PTFE gets stiction :) Nice to follow your development steps though MB.

[@preciousplasticph]

Great Idea. I am thinking that if one used UHMWPE rod and some cheap stainless tubing, you could mass produce linear guides quite cheaply vs China import

[@ThiagoBorgesOl]

Great work! My attempts to do something similar resulted in a kind of ghosting/resonating in printed pieces. Yours appears to be better machined.

[@ExtantFrodo2]

LOOKS AND SOUNDS LIKE A WIN!

[@epilotdk]

Clamping pressure when you machine PTFE is enough to make them out of round.

[@evertchin]

well those are not rotary bearings. these are linear bearings, it really doesn't matter as much as you think as long as there are no play and able to slide freely.

[@leoadrian21]

have finished the printer?

[@myfordboy]

I'll upload the video when all is done.

[@danilolattaro]

Was this ever finished? :(

[@myfordboy]

Yes it was and worked well but then I was sent other printers that performed just as well and had a larger capacity so it never had much use. With hindsight I would not have used the round rails and bearings. my preference is for the wheels on extrusions, they are much quieter.

[@danilolattaro]

@@myfordboy could you please someday post a video of it working? Or pictures of the finished printer. Such a cool and overengineered project. Thanks!

[@carbreaker6099]

Linear bearings works much better and will kip accuracy much longer than sliding bearings. But they need mor complicated mount. In your case bearings are overposytioned. That's why they gets lock and work under big tension without any force form machine. Maximum clearance between ball and shaft is about 0.008mm. But acuracy of your parts is probably about 0.05mm. Thats why bearing shafts are seriously deformed and berings work under huge tension. And in seriosly industry machines are only linear berings with complicated adjustment. Thanks for this they don't need maintenance and repair so often.

[@dorton79]

Восхищаюсь вашем мастерством!!!

[@haydenc2742]

I bet a dab of silicon grease (danco) would make those bearings slip n' slide like greased owl poop..great job and super quiet!!

[@wrxsubaru02]

Did you make that printer? where did u get it?

[@myfordboy]

I made it.

[@wrxsubaru02]

@@myfordboy It looks so good! do you have any videos of it in action?

[@myfordboy]

@@wrxsubaru02 There are videos on the build but I did not make one of it printing. It worked well enough but no better than my CR10 or Ender 3Pro so never got used much. Videos-- kzbin.info/www/bejne/b3XFc6qIr6uLb9U

[@TFlorian]

title = Linear Bearings Vs PTFE 3D Printer Me : Linear Bearings Vs PTFE 3D Printed but very good job !

[@IBUILTTHAT]

Have you tried delrin?

[@myfordboy]

No, but the PTFE is working well.

[@builtrodewreckedit]

I have used 3d printed abs bushings and have been really happy I'm sure the ptfe is much better. that's going to be a fantastic printer

[@laharl2k]

builtrodewreckedit Abs and petg suck for bearings. Use PLA or nylon, both have much higher shearing resistance and less friction coefitient than abs or petg.

[@Morkvonork]

try silicon oil on ptfe! not normal oil

[@ericbeckers2673]

That is an awesome printer, well done

[@muskokamike127]

"clamping them made them tighter" and therein lies the problem with nylon bearings: they are flexible. Flexible = inaccurate. There was a TON of nylon used in my original (bought) CNC machine and it was about as precise as a sledge hammer. I could not produce anything close to accuracy. For example: cutting the inside and outside of an inlay. Or making two sides of an MDF cabinet. They'd always be off. Cutting out a shape for a specific switch. Not even close. You may be ok with a 3d printer because there's no real torque or pressure on the bearings and you can mitigate wear by adding a light oil and that is fine since you don't have to worry about sawdust adhering to the shafts.....

[@tulavy_pistik]

Really nice work

[@EnnTomi1]

tbh, you just need to print some pla bearing....works wonder......

[@koplandavid]

the audio level seams great for a 3dp ....but for a router i wouldnt do sth like that

[@Sketch1994]

Don't underestimate plastic..I have seen crank driven reciprocating log splitters where the ram runs on PTFE plain bearings and they can even handle a ram that's going south! My favourite is PA66 GF30 or so, which I have witnessed bouncing a 5kg sledgehammer from a 2mm plastic rib! This thing is TOUGH!

[@RonaldWalters2010]

Slick ! Pun intended.

[@quinnfoster4671]

lol

[@laharl2k]

Ptfe works great with motor oil but you need to make a better mount. The lm8uu system is crap and onli works with the original steel ones.

[@jothain]

That's the dumbest thing you can ever make. I'm machine mechanic and I'm struggling multiple times a year with machines that are stuck or slow because some fuck face has "lubricated" plastics with oils. Yeah it might work for a little while and then the swelling of material begins. Do NOT try to lubricate plastics with everyday oils for fuck sakes.

[@Taki7o7]

they wear out pretty fast ^^

[@eformance]

Wow, those ball bearings sound like a bag of cats!

[@Edmorbus]

Great work

[@MrBhujbalgv]

Very informative vedio thanks.for sharing.

[@thaershaheen2946]

Great !

[@DingDongDaily]

why not just buy IGUS Drylin bearings? The taz 6 uses them and they work great.

[@FireoftheGreeks]

The satisfaction of making them with his own hands outweighs the ease of buying off the shelf parts.

[@DingDongDaily]

@@FireoftheGreeks proper functionality still outweighs reward IMO

[@mitchellstrobbe7779]

You can buy igus drylin bearings that serve the same purpose

[@MaturePatriot]

But the point is to make them.

[@mitchellstrobbe7779]

Mature Patriot I understand but if they are not working out then he can get functional ones.

[@fx1c333]

great job reverse engineering at the highest standard

[@jonathanbailey4904]

I couldn't last any longer than 2:30...

The chinese cheap bearings are very bad quality. If you buy good quality bearings, the difference is shocking! Good bearings are almost silent and have no play at all. But you'll have to pay a lot more.

[@laharl2k]

Antônio Henning "A lot more" as in 700 times more. You are comparing 1 dollar bearings to 60 bucks ones. Plus for the good quality ones you need good rods and super tight tolerances none of which a 3d printer has. A better alternative is to just use bushings ptfe or bronze.

[@printxii]

PTFE , low friction but it will wear with constant use. Wrong place/application for its use. Don't believe me then wast your money time.

[@Side85Winder]

Doing this vs buying a igus Its just not worth to DIY this sort of stuff. Even those 3d printed igus are questionable even if you had the printer and appropriate durable low friction self lubricating plastic (POM, PTFE, nylon, teflon) the time it takes to set it all up and print these unless you could produce them and sell for $1 each its a little hard since vase mode is required you would have to save multiple g-codes then edit it all to print in sequence wouldn't take to long to set up about 12-16 per build plate. its just a bit complicated when you can do 1 print for +$30 for a customer.

[@dedmanwunderland3470]

Teflon bearings are shit and you should not use them, the associated friction is ridiculous and while "quiet" they dont serve the purpose necessary, which is motion transfer.