Lining the Super C Forge

UPDATE UPDATE.... When you light the forge for the final curing of the mortar (before the second layer of slurry), set the burner at a low heat, just enough to keep the burner going with a steady flame.
This video shows how I line the forge I made in the "Build a Super C Propane Forge" video. The lining is INSWOOL thermal blanket with a reflective coating over the blanket. This type of lining costs more to install, but it should be more efficient (faster heating) and economical (less propane usage) than using just thermal blanket lining.
There will be additional videos coming that will provide more details about floors, doors, using propane forges, material sources and a free-form forge (please be patient).
Please, please, please..... obtain the MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEETS for the products you use and follow the advice for personal safety. You can find this infomation by googling for it, specifying the product name and MSDS.
Do not have any moving air in your shop when you are working with these type of products if they involve powder. Do not use forced air or a vaccum cleaner (unless it has a HEPA filter). Clean up any spilled materials with damp rags.

[@MrGarycooper101]

Hi Dave - Just watched your latest two videos and again commend you on your very clear and easy to follow instruction. As I think I told you before,,,,,, I've watched tons of how to videos on various subjects from airbrushing to custom concrete and your videos are in my opinion among the best. It's good of all the people who make these videos to share what they have spent years and sometimes the better part of a lifetime to learn. Enjoyed the forge videos thoroughly. Gary - Kelowna BC

[@matthewmarting3623]

Thank you for what might be the most informative forge lining video on KZbin. I knew about all the pieces but hadn’t put it all together in my head.

[@HammerMan999]

You're welcome....

[@MatthewHarrisStudio]

Dave, thank you for sharing many days worth of trial and error with us. This is a wealth of technical information, i will be using this process shortly to line a larger version of the Super C design. Thank you again

[@ht3mills]

Dave, Outstanding job on the forge. I love the final product and I'll build one someday. Thanks

[@battlefinder]

Hell of a shop you've got there!

[@LordoftheCats]

Very good material. Wish you lived near by! Great stuff & thanks for sharing.

[@shiranduarte]

Thanks for your effort teaching us all this! Your work is amazing and I'm thinking about trying making my own. - Best wishes all the way from Brazil!

[@HammerMan999]

Your welcome Shiran. Good luck with your projects.

[@jdesgrange3665]

i know im a little late to the comment party as this is an older vid (first time watching for me) but i gotta say, that rack of metal behind you there is making my mouth water! oh the things i could/would do with all that. great vid as well. just made my own gas forge from an old lp tank

[@djhammerd]

+j desgrange ..... I still answer any questions that are posted if I see them.

[@sajinkahnalt]

wonderful design sir! you have taught a youthful blacksmith amazing information thank you for sharing!

[@HammerMan999]

Thank you... One update on the lining... If the forge is small, as this one is, only one coat of slurry is necessary. The mortar and second coat of slurry add strength, but could be reserved for larger forges...

[@sajinkahnalt]

thank you sir! that does help me a lot

[@ezramel]

Very professional thanks for showing us how its done.

[@HammerMan999]

ezramel Thanks.... I have one update I'd like to pass on. I learned the method of using multiple layers of refractory (slurry then mortar then slurry) from a person that makes/repairs glory holes for glass blowers. It is a method which will provide a strong superior covering over thermal blanket. I have since learned that for small forges (say, with a burn chamber of a half cubic foot or less), the multiple layers is not necessary. A single layer of slurry, over rigidized (and dry) thermal blanket will work just as well. Repairs are done also with just slurry.

[@kerrywil1]

Thanks for the effort to do the video very nice

[@djhammerd]

I bought my anvil at a blacksmith conference in Maryland, probably around 2004. At that time anvils were selling for $1-$2 per pound, depending upon condition and location. Today, old anvils can cost up to $4 a pound or more, depending upon location.

[@djhammerd]

If you watch the "Simple Propane Forge Lining" you will see that a forge can be lined with just thermal blanket and a brick for a floor. I did it that way for many years. It will work very well if sized to the burner. The other coatings I use in this video just make the forge more efficient. I suggest you use Google or Bing to search for pottery or ceramic suppliers online. You can buy both thermal blanket and fire brick from "PSHcandada. Best of luck with your projects....

[@MrWizardofgore]

totally understand. was worth asking. well done though, deff a solid long lasting kiln. I have my air tank ready to cut and assemble but im not comfortable with the chemical layer aspects because never used before so looking at other options for the inside.

[@djhammerd]

Although there is controversy over safety aspects, you can just use bare thermal blanket. I used forges that way for many years (as do hundreds of other hobby blacksmiths (and commercial products).

[@acmetim]

dang, look at that shop!

[@Blatta77]

17:00 Or brush on sodium silicate on the cardboard. I have experience of making sodium silicate. If you mix sodium silicate and lime, you can paint with it on such as concrete or cement. This mixture is resistant to water when dry.

[@grantoyamaha]

Very good vid , very smart man

[@learner1643]

Dave thanks for your reply about the burner hole . i have a piece of stainless steel pipe 1/4 thick the burner fits into will that do . Thanks again for your time . Ray

[@langmofamily]

Nice weld table

[@djhammerd]

You could any heat chamber to cure colloidal silica. Personally, I would not use anything I would be heating food in. I HAVE used our kitchen over to cure rammable refractory I use for forge floors, but there is no liquid involved, and I always use the self clean feature after I do.

[@djhammerd]

I don't have a ratio I use. I just mix it to a little more liquid than yogurt consistancy. It needs to flow on easily and seem to adhere to the prepared surface as you brush it on (remember you need to prepare the surface with a diluted colloidal silica mix). If it's too thick, it will not flow well. If it's too thin, it will not adhere well. My mentor did not give me proportions. He gave me the instructions I have passed on. Also, yes, subsequent layers should be the same consistency.

[@djhammerd]

I would expect that sodium silicate would work on any surface that is not glassy or polished. Remember though, if the forge body gets extremely hot, the sodium silicate will chrystalize and fail. I recommend using high temp wire staples to hold thermal blanked in place as well as sodium silicate.

[@CHUNKYNUGGET666]

grt video thanks David;)

[@mikael22V]

Dave, do you think I can use frax rigidizer (ins tuff) as a replacement in all the lining steps in which you use colloidal silica?

[@fisharmor]

Regarding the cardboard heating chamber, have you tried lining with aluminum foil? That should get it a bit hotter. I've used such a thing to bake pie over charcoal briquettes, so it should be plenty safe.

[@HammerMan999]

I easily can imagine lining the box with foil would make it more efficient.. Great idea!

[@1996abbi]

Hello again Dave, I am wondering if I can cure the colloidal silica layer in my oven? If so what would a good temp / time be? Thanks! Shawn

[@paulmckay7346]

Dave love your vids!!! what would happen if I just used the mortar right on the wool without the silica?thanks

[@HammerMan999]

+Paul Harrsch .... The best I can say would be to experiment a bit, using a small patch of thermal blanket to see how the refractory could be applied and prepared for use in a forge.

[@wappkid]

Thanks for the fast response. I found a couple of old tanks yesterday. I'm planning on building mine like yours. It seems like it would be more efficient. If I'm just building a regular forge and not the c forge. Do you recommend gluing in the blanket material?

[@djhammerd]

Sorry I didn't see this question before. If the thermal blanket will stay in place without using sodium silicate, there is no need to use sodium silicate. Before I started making "C" configuration forges, I lined forges like you can see in my video "Simple Propane Forge Lining". You should also note that.... although sodium silicate will act as an adhesive, it is not assured it will hold blanket in place indefinitely. If the interior of your forge gets and stays extremely hot (like forge welding temp) for an extended period of time, it is likely that heat will crystallize the sodium silicate and it will no longer adhere the thermal blanket to the shell. As shown in this video (I think), I use high temperature wire staples as a backup to ensure the thermal blanket will not fall.

[@expatconn7242]

i just made my first smelter....(not like yours) have already done some mods seeing what woks better...some time in the future i would like to try to make yours.. but the cost i have a hard time explaining to the wife.....great set up thanks

[@HammerMan999]

anthony marasco Thanks.... For the record, for these small forges, it is not necessary (although it makes it more efficient) to do the slurry, mortar, slurry layers. I've started just using one coat of slurry over the rigidized thermal blanket.

[@wappkid]

David I like your videos. I got a question. Do you coat the inside of your burner hole? And how much propane do you use on average with these forges ?

[@HammerMan999]

+William Stucker .... I coat all exposed surfaces of thermal blanket, including the hole I have cut in the blanket for the burner. I do not coat the inside of the pipe the burner is held by. I have never done a study or kept track of how much propane I use. How much propane anyone uses will be dependent upon how they manage the heat in their burn chamber. For example, if you bring your burn chamber up to forging temperature, then back off the propane just to maintain that heat (and are forging small stock), you will get the best efficiency. Doing this will consume a LOT less propane than If you are heating larger stock and keeping the pressure higher so as to heat the stock with the burner as well as the reflected heat off the walls and floor. Posters on blacksmith forums I used to frequent generally reported getting up to 8 hours of forging time from a 20 # propane tank with single burner forges. If you line your forge as I show in this video and manage your openings well, I would expect you to far exceed that average. Incidently, for small forges (probably a half cubic foot burner chamber or less) it is not necessary to use the mortar for multiple layers. One or two layers of the slurry is fine. Be sure to use the 50/50 colloidal silica and water mix to ready the surface before the second or subsequent coat of slurry is applied.

[@wessmith2361]

Will the sodium sillicate "glue" work if the forge body is stainless steel? Or will it not stick properly?

[@gvandatta]

Great Video and exactly what I needed in Jan 2018. My purchased forge lining recently failed and I'm positive it only had Sodium Silicate between ceramic layers as the adhesive. I did not know anything about it before watching this video. The failure was during forge welding and exactly as you said. The top layer of my square forge fell down. Can you provide the link to your product orders or the video link you reference? I cannot find your order video link and have ordered some products that I want to make sure are correct before I start. If I use the nichrome wire staples, I assume that they just keep the ceramic layers from separating, since I cannot pierce the 3/8" metal forge walls? Added comment, love the heating chamber idea, I've used it for several other projects now.

[@HammerMan999]

The supplies source video is at kzbin.info/www/bejne/bWOUoHp7jp1naLM The staples need to go through the forge body. I make holes about 2 inches apart with a drill or an oxy/acet (easier, but less attractive). I glue the blanket in, ridgidize it, then push the staples through from outside the body and bend them over inside before the first coat of slurry is put on...

[@gvandatta]

Thank you, products ordered. I am helping 3 others build forges and this information is invaluable

[@HammerMan999]

Good luck with your builds... You will not be disappointed...

[@learner1643]

Dave I made one of your forge burners . what kind of pipe do I use for the burner hole on the forge,what kind of metal is it thanks

[@HammerMan999]

I generally use a piece of 1.5 (or 2) inch pipe (schedule 40) that could be bought at any big box store. A piece of ANY pipe that can be welded in could be used. Just be sure it has clearance inside for the flare. I make that pipe a fair bit larger than the flare because the flare will deform (burn) with use. One other thing... don't forget to stuff insulation between the pipe and the burner, so heat doesn't escape along the side of the burner...

[@davidhansen9665]

I got simwool rigidizer to go over my ceramic blanket, than intend on using itc 100 to coat that, there is no msds sheet on rigidizer, any safety warnings I should use, once I get this coated will it protect against ceramic fibers being inhaled

[@HammerMan999]

Rigidizer is relatively safe to use as long as you use rubber gloves. I would also recommend wearing a simple face mask. I just brush it on. Let it dry completely before you put on your ITC-100 (do not try to shortcut this). It will air dry in a day or so (depending upon humidity). You can find a MSDS at www.icscasting.com/MSDS/ICS-MSD-COLSIL-05-007EN.pdf You can make a heat box (as I did in the video) if you have small heater to use.

[@josuecontreras954]

excellent felicity design of HONDURAS Centre American

[@djhammerd]

Thank you....

[@joshcox7919]

I am building a version of the forge you have been building in these videos. Where can you find the colloidal silica. I am having trouble locating. I love these videos

[@djhammerd]

There is another video that identifies where I bought my supplies. It's called "Super C Forge Lining Supplies and Sources".

[@joshcox7919]

Thank you

[@klawz1801]

Will fire cement work instead of mortar?

[@TonyUrryMakes]

Does the sodium silicate 'glue' take the place of nichrome staples for adhering the blanket to the wall?

[@HammerMan999]

It doesn't. I consider the sodium silicate useful for holding the first layer of thermal blanket to the case and an adhesive to hold the first and second layers of thermal blanket together during installation. If the sodium silicate did this indefinitely, the staples would not be needed. I have learned however, that if the forge is kept at a high heat (like for forge welding) for an extend period of time, the sodium silicate will chrystalize and will no longer adhere the thermal blanket to the case. If this happens, the staples will hold the thermal blanket in place.

[@TonyUrryMakes]

thanks

[@natemandoo]

Ironic... I am hot-boxing my forge and I can only get 180° as well. 1500W. I can only leave it on 750W, which gets me around 130° because it keeps clicking off. I am following your instructions almost verbatim (minus the slurry stuff) I think I watched it at least 10 times to make sure.

[@HammerMan999]

Nateman Doo It's OK if it doesn't get as hot... Just be sure it's dry before you fire it or add another coat...

[@Btines01]

Now does this coating provide a more long lived resistance to forge welding, or do you find yourself having to replace the lining still more frequently?

[@HammerMan999]

I'm not really sure how flux resistant these coatings are, although I can assure you they are much more flux resistant than just thermal blanket (which melts like cotton candy if you get flux on it). In general, I don't get flux on the walls of my forge. I keep "what I have flux on" away from the walls. Flux will run onto the floor from my work. I do not coat the floor with the zirconium silicate slurry. I use either thin hard brick or ramable refractory for my floors. Both are fairly flux resistant, but do need to be replaced occasionally because the flux builds up into a mucky mess if you use a lot. Long term high heat (welding temps), coupled with the flux does damage the floors (but it takes a while). I have multiple floors for the forge I use the most... and switch out floors to have the one most suitable for current projects.

[@Btines01]

thanks

[@donaldbruner8409]

Would you build it and send me one love to have something like this. Or can I use some air compressor tanks made from 1/4 " barge steel.

[@djhammerd]

Donald Bruner Sorry, I don't have a business to make things for others. I just like to share how I make things. You can use whatever you can buy or scrounge to make this or a similar forge. Keep the forge burn chamber relatively small though (these burners should support up to 300 cubic inches of burn chamber) and be sure the "C" does not flex. I've made a couple now using 8 inch C channel on the bottom and a half cylinder for the top. I added a 4 inch bar to raise the half cylinder (still making the forges so they can be taken apart) and put a flat on the open side on the C channel. The 4 inch bar is welded to the half cylinder and bolted to the C channel.

[@FALpwn]

would a mixture of perlite and plaster of paris work?

[@HammerMan999]

I'm sure there are lots of casting mixtures that would work just fine, but I'm not familiar with them. If you want to try something other than what I've shown in this video, I suggest you look for other KZbin videos or search (using Google or Bing) for forge lining options....

[@MrWizardofgore]

how much and do you take orders for these amazing kilns??

[@djhammerd]

Sorry, this is just a hobby for me. I don't sell anything. I just like to show others how I do things.....

[@Blatta77]

Did you know that what is on the welding rod/stick is held in place with sodium silicate?

[@HammerMan999]

I didn't know that... I learn something new every day.... :-)

[@pkwithlemur18]

where did get you anvil and how much??

[@ivanpelotari]

hola te hablo desde España.quiero hacer ese mismo horno de forja pero me gustaría que me mandaras un esquema con las medidas y productos de aislamiento ya que no especificas o no lo entiendo gracias

[@HammerMan999]

En primer lugar ..... Gracias por ver mis videos. En general, estoy muy específico acerca de lo que los tamaños son y qué materiales que utilizo. Hay varios vídeos relativos fraguas de construcción y de revestimiento que dan especificaciones y fuentes de los materiales que utilizo. Entiendo que a veces hay barreras de idioma y me gustaría que no lo era. Estoy encantado de que mis videos están siendo observados en muchos países fuera de los Estados Unidos. Obviamente, los productos que uso son los productos estadounidenses que compro en los Estados Unidos. No tengo duda de productos similares están disponibles en todos los países industrializados. Todos estos materiales deben estar disponibles en el Internet también ... Sólo tiene que utilizar Google (o Bing) para buscar para ellos. Mis videos son muy específicos en la descripción de lo que yo uso. Si usted está teniendo problemas de comprensión, le sugiero que encontrar un amigo con tus mismos intereses que entiende Inglés un poco mejor. Si usted pertenece a un gremio herrero (grupo), que sería el mejor lugar para empezar. Si no, ir a buscar un gremio herrero e ir a sus reuniones y explicar lo que estamos tratando de hacer. Me gustaría poder hacer más, pero me siento mis videos ya son muy completa en la descripción de los materiales, procesos y explicar de dónde saco mis materiales. Si usted no puede encontrar un gremio herrero, averiguar quién enseña cerámica y ve a hablar con ellos. Ellos usan hornos (hornos) y, a veces hará que ellos mismos (el proceso y los materiales puede el similar). Dicho sea de paso, quiero mencionar que las multi-capas descritas en el video revestimiento fragua sólo serían necesarios para fraguas más grandes (de más de 0,75 cúbico cámara de combustión pie. Buena suerte con sus proyectos.

[@HammerMan999]

En forjas que tienen una cámara de combustión de menos de 0,75 pies cúbicos, un solo recubrimiento de la suspensión descrita es suficiente. El revestimiento multi-capa añade resistencia para forjas más grandes. Puede seguir utilizando el revestimiento multicapa para pequeñas fraguas si lo desea, y va a durar más tiempo, pero no es realmente necesario.

[@cshort19871]

how hard should the refractory cement get? I just put it on and it's been drying for 26 hours so far. Also can a second coat be added to smooth out imperfections of getting it to adhere to the inswool?

[@HammerMan999]

+Chris Short.... You can put more coats of the slurry on without the mortar coat. The coat you are putting another over should be very hard (and dry) first. In the video, I say it should be bone dry. If you wish, you can use a file (carefully) to smooth bumps a bit before the application of an additional coat (I do this on corners). Don't forget to brush a 50/50 mix of water and colloidal Silica on the surface before you put on the additional coat of slurry. If you don't, it will not adhere as well. Also... If you, as I do, occasionally damage the refractory putting in or taking out metal, you can patch repair that using the same process.

[@cadence0dakota19]

I have the same heater lol

[@FixAllFixer62]

David does blanet burn up

[@HammerMan999]

Thermal blanket does have a temperature rating. I have seen 2300, 2600 and 3000 degree blanket for sale online. I buy 2600 degree blanket because higher-temperature rated blanket is prohibitively expensive. SO, the short answer is ... It can, and will, if you run a forge at extremely high temperatures for long periods of time. A more thoughtful answer is.... it generally doesn't under normal forging use, especially if you have a refractive coating over it (as described in this video), and don't keep your forge hotter than you generally should need to for long periods of time. Using the refractory coatings will up the temperature rating of your forge. Thermal blanket does not last forever though, even under conditions that are not extreme. This type of lining (even with the refractory coatings) needs to be considered a consumable item, and should be replaced or repaired when it is obviously damaged (and yes, you can tell by looking at it). How long it will last depends upon your forging habits (temperature) and whether or not you can put in and remove objects without damaging the lining yourself.

[@FixAllFixer62]

Your ideaer good just get y open on end other for smoke , lots of heat lose

[@joshcouch7306]

What would it take for you to built me one of these

[@HammerMan999]

Thanks for asking, but this is just a hobby for me. I like sharing how I've learned to do things, but choose not to make it a business.

[@ronadpaugh44]

why not make it just a bit larger and use fire brick instead of all that work in the way you are doing it? I have worked in a lot of foundry's and the only time I have seen using the blanket is in electric furnaces

[@HammerMan999]

+ronadpaugh44 ... This video shows how I, personally, line forges. I have made the basic Super C forge in several sizes, some round as shown in my build video, others using C channel (for top and bottom) and plate to make the "C". How someone lines them is a personal choice. My choice is as shown.... Certainly, other methods could be used.

[@calebpurvis4285]

dude, you sound just like Kevin Costner.

[@HammerMan999]

:-)

[@alejandrapalomino7553]

in spanish please!

[@HammerMan999]

+alee palomino .... Me encantaría poder satisfacerte, pero por desgracia, soy una persona sola lengua... Lo siento