Lionel Shriver: Insensitivity Reader - Live at the UnHerd Club

[@62426637]

As a university prof, I can vouch for the way that woke people seal themselves off, so they dont have to have a conversation with people who disagree with them, on the grounds that it is "harmful". What a betrayal of what universities are supposed to be about1

[@Mateo-et3wl]

Th universities haven't been about anything noble for several decades

[@olgapetrouchenko2481]

A fantastic interview! So refreshing to hear somebody talking sense. Thank you!

[@user-bg9ws7ys4k]

Yes, talking sense should be a compulsory subject in elementary schools because they (the children) know BS when they hear it. Thank you Olga, for pointing it out 😊🙏

[@denisehay8895]

Well done Lionel for speaking out. I live in Edinburgh where we have an annual book festival. I stopped going three or four years ago because it was so 'woke'. No talks with authors I wished to hear speaking about books I didn't want to read. 'Diversity trumps excellence'. And you're right about the prospect of civilisation ruin.

[@Orson2u]

Mediocrity rules nothings.

[@sticksman1979]

Thank God for Unherd. A sane voice in the madness.

[@ligiacoelho5082]

How refreshing to listen to such wise person! Its time to move on from all this woke nonsense. Thank god for courageous people who speak their mind!!! 🙏🏽

[@iceboys7404]

Yes! The readers only care about quality fiction, with an edge...and, as an almost voracious reader my whole life, of a variety of genres, I can say that Lionel Shriver is perhaps the BEST author I have ever read. Every sentence is so rich, so full, it is as though I am eating a gourmet meal for the mind. Exquisite.

[@Gozzillacia]

This woman is sooo impressive. And - it must be great, to be a writer telling the truth in a time of such stupid dangerous lies. Could an artist ask for more? (sorry about the weird mistype earlier guys)

[@lottie4321]

This woman's intellect and humour gives me goosebumps ❤

[@mattsmusic9361]

Brutal honesty. This is not a woman I would ever want to cross. But everything she says about the publishing industry is spot-on.

[@arjay9745]

We are underestimating the educative value of free, unsupervised play. Kids who never get away from regimented, adult-led activites--never go out and run around with other kids, role play, bicker, make-up again, engage with ideas without anyone telling them how to think about them--grow up to be conformists. This is what we've done by deciding that our kids need to merely survive childhood, rather than have a quality childhood.

[@captainman2clever351]

Oooh yes , you're right.

[@stonerubber]

Exactly so. Kids learn mostly from other kids. Any adult who feels unsafe because of words probably should have been allowed to go outside and hurt themselves a little bit more when they were kids.

[@Enhancedlies]

this gives me a warm hope that i haven't felt in a long while, and also feeling like we DO have a 'community' and we are finding our feet, slowly.

[@evanfirebrand]

Wonderfully reassuring... and vindicating. Gratitude to both Lionel and UnHerd.

[@joanr3189]

“Self-appointed sensitivity readers” how could such a person not blush!

[@jprw]

"A lot of their younger staff were bursting into tears and threatening to have nervous breakdowns" wonderfully put

[@Cotictimmy]

I think I may be in love with Lionel Shiver. She is EXACTLY what you would wish for when facing an invasion of authoritarianism, censoriousness and forced-speech. She is the Václav Havel of the fight back against the dictatorship of 'The Woke'.

[@lilar8449]

I was in a Book Publishing program at an Australian university for a semester. Of course, 99% of the cohort was women, and Shriver is exactly right on how compliant everyone was in this ideological wokeness culture. Everyone was only interested in moving forward the diversity agenda, and nothing else. Everyone should just look at how boring the Writer's festivals have become in the last few years. I am glad for the negative press on Shriver, because I wouldn't have discovered how warped this whole industry was. Ditched the program of course.

[@mikegray8776]

I always love to hear Lionel’s commentary - acerbic and totally direct - but never without her irrepressible sense of humour. A unique and thoroughly entertaining take on the eccentricities of 21st Century living.

[@dambar7486]

I am a member of the Liberal Democrats and so much of what Lionel Shriver says throws light on the fight we have within the party.

[@MB-dp1rj]

"Diversity trumps excellence"...in everything!!! The "jewel" in her conversation.

[@Individual_Lives_Matter]

The young aren’t challenging authority because they’ve been made permanently dependent upon authority. I think Jonathan Haidt covers this very well.

[@ninagohlsson6053]

Add to that the feeling of being in power (as in the young staff they were talking about in this conversation). It may seem like a contradiction but they are so well aware of what mechanisms they can use to control both their immediate environment but also the public space. They've seen for years how easily you can destroy someone. I also truly believe that they think that's how the world is supposed to work, that they are "punching up" when they are abusing their power - and that they are fighting an existential fight. Why would they need to rebell when they are saving humanity?

[@bdawg333]

“It shouldn’t be brave to say most of the stuff I say, but unfortunately it has become so.”

[@sarasamson5922]

I had never read any of Lionel Shriver's work, but I've just downloaded the audiobook 'Property' (short story / novella collection) read by her. I fully accept that I may question or be 'offended' with any of the content, but somehow I feel this cross-section of work will have been written and narrated with an attention to detail and excellence. Next on deck will be Douglas Murray. I'm glad I've heard of Un-Herd and Triggernometry. - Politically homeless in California

[@pamelaroyce5285]

I feel politically homeless, too. I am a Sixties style liberal, a First Wave feminist, and generally liberal as to the role of government in big scope issues such as environmental protection, etc. I cannot vote for Republicans, but the Democrats have sold out to the shrillest voices of minuscule demographic groups. I despair.

[@eemoogee160]

​@@pamelaroyce5285 there are anti authoritarian leftists out here, just not much institutional representation.

[@pamelaroyce5285]

@Majestic Artimus one thing we need to teach youngsters before they leave high school is that there is a difference between being personally offended because the writer or speaker directed something disparaging at us and finding a writing or speech to be offensive, distasteful, etc. You and I can make that distinction, but apparently there are many who have never learned it.

[@irenemax3574]

I just finished "So Much For That" which deals with big scary issues such as health insurance, mesothelioma, suicide, a difficult read at times, but also very funny and clever, well worth reading.

[@sarasamson5922]

@@irenemax3574 Thanks for the recommendation, downloaded the audiobook "So Much For That", first hour in. Just finished her audiobook collection of articles, 'Abominations'. Highly recommend that one.

[@lesleycassell]

This was a very enjoyable interview, thank you. Lionel speak so much sense.

[@onepartyroule]

I was born in 1980 and i've never felt ashamed to be English, in fact i've always felt good about it, so it's really hard for me to relate to the sense of national shame that some people in western countries have. One reason for this could be that we used to go on holiday to the med. and north Africa when I was between 5-16, and it always felt to me like people in other countries liked Britain and British people. They seemed to think of us as friendly, and that we like to have a laugh, including at ourselves. People seem to appreciate that. They loved talking about British and American music, tv, film and sport too, and would complain about the German and French tourists to us (haha).

[@TenTenJ]

Be proud. I wouldn’t be who I am if I didn’t have a British influence, namely British culture, academics, and especially the various arts. My life wouldn’t be as enriched if I wasn’t influenced by a British outlook on things. The entire modern world would not have developed without Victorian manners and values.

[@DieFlabbergast]

If Lionel Shriver had not become a novelist, she could easily have made a good living as a stand-up comedian.

[@galaxytrio]

I love Lionel's intelligence, self-assurance and unwillingness to conform.

[@JenniferMoleski]

Bravo a million times. I was so pleased to hear everything she said. Wonderful!

[@Tony-ol4bt]

All it takes is authors saying NO. Stand once or live on your knees.

[@MelissaKnoxwriter]

A brilliant, witty writer! Wonderful to hear

[@HiKasandra]

Great guest and topic! ~

[@JRB-e1y]

Wow. This interview was captivating. I wish that I was able to express my thoughts so eloquently.

[@TXVETJEB]

1) Don't be a jerk when you write, and the rest be damned. There are no problematic authors, only problematic readers. Daylight is the best disinfectant.

[@kathrynludrick4821]

Thank you so much for covering this issue!

[@onepartyroule]

The over sensitivity regarding "cultural appropriation" seems like such an obvious shot in the foot if you also value representation. All kinds of people are not equally represented in the writing professions, so if people are scared off writing characters that are only drawn from their own experiences for fear of being told that theyre either hollow, tokenistic additions, or so authentic that they're stereotypes, we're going to end up with a much more homogeneous selection of plays and tv/film scripts.

[@clementine6760]

Too true.

[@GarthBuxton]

Best interview on youtube I have ever heard.

[@GarthBuxton]

I have subscribed to Unheard because of this interview.

[@andrewhotston983]

The fact that the room was full for this talk shows there IS hope that the current tsunami of nonsense will eventually run out of momentum.

[@kathrynludrick4821]

Great interview. I hadn't heard of Lionel Shriver before. I agree with almost everything she says.

[@lewreed1871]

She's great. 'We Need to Talk About Kevin' -- Shriver's book (also the film made of it) is brilliant.

[@DieFlabbergast]

"I hadn't heard of Lionel Shriver before." You had been living in a yurt in Mongolia? Or was it a hut in the Amazon rainforest? Welcome back to the real world :)

[@SamStone1964]

@@DieFlabbergastLiving in a hut in the Amazon would feel way more "real world" than reading the literary reviews in a cosy apartment. To me anyway.

[@kimberleeoneal]

I've been looking for a new author to binge on ❤ I discovered this interview by accident, and now I'm excited to read your work

[@kathrynludrick4821]

This is horrible, that authors are subjected to such censorship.

[@MargaretHarmer]

Such a fun and interesting interview!! Thank you!

[@nikmills]

Lionel is great. "Publishing is the worst of it." - Well, it's all the arts!

[@BeanUasal]

Insightful bit on the false pride of being ashamed of where you come from: 45:07 - 47:06

[@metgirl5429]

Loved this ….. I can’t write a sentence …. Or voice my thoughts well …… Thankyou Unherd fir having such an intelligent and easy to listen too guest … Lionel Shriver just wow 🕊🤣

[@beheadingbuddha4256]

The solution for authors is simple. Self publish. I am amazed she never mentioned that and nobody asked.

[@thaliasmusings]

Thank you. This was excellent. I needed to be reminded of all that was discussed. Brava to unorthodox women.

[@meekootsa]

This was worth every second. Amazing.

[@thehonourablerebel7338]

what an interesting, intelligent and entertaining discussion. Thoroughly arresting.

[@kathrynludrick4821]

She's right. I'm a boomer and we've already been through the slavery and native American thing where we're supposed to hate ourselves for something our ancestors may or may not have done.

[@Laurencemardon]

If ‘they’ want you to hate yourself it’s probably not for exactly the reason they propose (ancestral history of race cultural and resource elated intercultural conflict violence and competition) but so that they can set you up with any of the following: a weekly therapy session, a prescription drug habit, anger management courses, a future history of failed relationships based on negative self image/ self sabotaging behaviour, or a whole array of compensatory actions including tithing, short or longer term political allegiances, and wearing water wings on the subway - just to be on the safe side. ( 😊…now you know where those guys are coming from!!) Just another bad old day with notMardon from Canada 🇨🇦 Is it in fact the case that all those managers actually do nothing or that they appear to have little to no work product?? There’s a hell a lot of unofficial monitoring going on after all, a lot of off the books analysis followed by unrecorded and largely untraceable policy tweaking/ solution seeking/strategy sessions etc. Not to mention real time coaching of the frontline staff that deal with the daily callers/ clients and consumers of goods and services . “Monitored for training purposes” my ashes!! Shaming impacts… here we are connecting with our herein primary comment …

[@Individual_Lives_Matter]

Yes, it’s nothing new, though they act like trailblazers.

[@seanbwparker1]

Lionel Shriver is peerless. UnHerd seems to be increasingly so too...

[@niish369]

Excellence! Thank you.

[@kevincurrie-knight3267]

How much of all this action by publishers can be 'reduced' to an attempt to save a dying ship by trying to expand their market share? In other words, when Lionel talks about a publisher trying to ensure that their authors reflect UK demographics, is that because, say, they are aware of how few [insert identity label]s by books and think that if more authors are [same identity label], they can 'get' that group to buy more books? I work at a university, and when I hear statements about commitment to, say, socioeconomic or racial diversity, what I hear is... "There are untapped markets out there, and because we're hurting for money, we're going to do what we can do get them hooked on our services." And since you can't exactly SAY that and it is more fashionable to use highfalutin language, the quest for diversity and social justice is a good way to say the same thing.

[@kj1483]

The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency is a series of novels by Alexander McCall Smith set in Botswana and featuring the character Mma Precious Ramotswe. The series is named after the first novel, published in 1998

[@zanniethompson]

This is why I have to keep coming back to your content. Sometimes your guests are so perspicacious that they more than make up for the sea of duds.

[@saiello2061]

Jordan Peterson has often commented on how women are too agreeable, particularly when it comes to climbing the corporate ladder because they don't want to be seen as the 'bad person". Men in general have less of a problem with this, they're more likely to exhibit the more bullish attitude and not care about personal reputation.

[@robleahy5759]

No he say 40% of women are aggressive, compared to 60% of men. Not a large difference.

[@jeanetteb2347]

So true what she says about women being timid and risk-averse. That is a real big problem because it influences also other spheres of our society. How would covid policies have gone if women weren't the majority of doctors? Very solid analysis of our times. The too much college educated people is a very big problem too.

[@bogdiworksV2]

When this idea that "everyone will be going to college" first came out it struck me as idiotic, because it didn't follow that the law of average would somehow change out of nothing.

[@mikegray8776]

Pretentious and mendacious final question … no way he had just read the ONLY book Lionel mentioned by name, without knowing the title of it. He just wanted to have a pop at her for being an “extremist” - which patently she is not - for which she rightly gave him short shrift. Well done, as always, Lionel.

[@Lord_Saruman]

Good stuff from Lionel as usual!!!

[@anushkacindyshadiack1105]

Experts of being offended - that is their skill.

[@sandybottom6623]

The center ground is the interplay point between discussing the advantages and disadvantages of proposals. That way things are evolved and progressed. The converse is true - extreme positions don't progress, they embed failures. The proponent puts forward the hypothesis. The sceptic shoots holes in it. The back and forward sorts out the problems and moves things forward.

[@tallard666]

I always enjoy listening/watching Lionel Shriver. She's not 100% consistent with her political principles, but damn I wish I had her talent and balls!

[@jonahtwhale1779]

This is all the editors know. Deconstruction of literature is what students are taught in College. Is it so surprising that, when they graduate and get jobs in publishing, deconstruction is what they do and all they know how to do.

[@dyoolyoos]

Lionel exhibits so much rationality, coherence, eloquence and wit. Too bad she's a writer.

[@ianelliott8224]

It's never been easier for men to succeed in sport and culture as long as they wear lipstick and a wig.

[@AJManol]

Excellent!!!

[@shedactivist]

30:00 Jordan Peterson's publisher should have given their young staff a copy of his book, that would be more useful than giving them hankies.

[@ceecee6679]

The flow is not in just one direction, per a proud American.

[@arachnipope]

No matter if it's a cutting tool, a book or a movie script, when you remove all the sharp edges......it's just dull. We are sinking into the dull, grey boredom of socialism.

[@tracyhealey8312]

Love her so🙏🙏❤️

[@AndyJarman]

58:00 Didn't Eric Arthur Blair write about the manipulation and limiting of vocabulary in a book once? Double good think.

[@robleahy5759]

The great English writer Michael Moorcock recently rewrote the ending of a new edition of his fantasy Gloriana, and thanked the Commisariat for spotting the potential SMBD implications therein. Smart man, knows a commo when he meets one.

[@andrewbaldwin4454]

It seems like Lionel Shriver is working for a publisher who gives her final control over her own manuscripts, who recommends edits that she can accept or reject. I suspect she is lucky, and that this is an unusual arrangement in writing now. Rachel Emmanuel left iPolitics, a Canadian digital newspaper, when they made changes to soften a story she had written on Canadian Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland posing with a Stepan Bandera banner demanded by Freeland’s team that Rachel had refused to make herself. That’s why she is now working in Alberta instead of Ottawa.

[@robyn2628]

i love lionel, i could listen to her all day. great personality, great intelligence. very insightful and funny. and is it just me or has she aged incredibly well?! i dont really have a problem with referring to 'slaves' as 'enslaved persons', though, even though i dont know if i would make a point of it myself. i think it's helpful in making a distinction between a 'slave' as something that you are, as opposed to being 'enslaved' as something that was done to you. whereas, you wouldnt need to say 'writing person', because being a writer is not something that was done to you or that diminishes your personhood, but rather somethings that adds to it.

[@Laurencemardon]

Yeah I saw that in the trailer/ preamble for this interview and it reminded me that I had noted a somewhat surprising reporting context in which this policy was not followed. Trying to remember what it is as, maybe starving people?? Might have been a pop up appeal for money…? Uh oh, as a woman 🙄🤪🤨😁( not mardon here) we’re now hearing Lionel say we women are attracted to all kinds of men/ not discriminative enough in our intimate partner choices. Well, I’d have a hard time being any more discriminative than I Am already!! Nice to be able to exercise an option or two in that department, yess indeedy. Slaves to fashion?? Fraidy not. Like wearing clothes though!! Anybody remember princess Leila’s get up from Janna the hutt’s harem in either empire or return of the Jedi??

[@Gingerblaze]

Great point! Perhaps it is the enforcement of this change of language and insistence that using the prior form is intentionally offensive that is objectionable. I do wonder how one would implement this specific, top down language change applies to entire ethnic groups such as "slavic" pleoples? The etomology of that name means "slave". Would people of Slavic origin need to be now known as "en-slavic" people?

[@merrymachiavelli2041]

In the context of fiction though, saying 'enslaved person' sounds clunky and unnatural, unless I guess the fictional person saying it is a 21st century activist. If the work has a fictional society which practices slavery, it makes internal sense that people within that society might subtly (and not to subtly) dehumanise enslaved people, as a cultural practice to help make the cognitive dissonance more bearable. It sounds jarring and anachronistic otherwise.

[@De5O54]

Excellent upload/ discussion. Sense by Shriver. Appropriate perhaps to feature on ‘UnHeard’.

[@sue.F]

The problem is, there’s a certain amount of intelligence and comprehension required to find the idiocy of peak woke, funny. So, for the most most part, it has become an accepted conformity.

[@StephenGrew]

How crap is that, censoring people, it's crazy!

[@emmab2136-o3v]

Love her.

[@blueskiesandgreenpasturesp3848]

I love this already just from the intro.

[@michaelwebb3979]

Just a wonderful breath of old air. None of this new rubbish

[@robleahy5759]

Lacan never said 'othering', and he invented it.

[@robleahy5759]

Women ran publishing since 1800. Never seen one who was anxious to please, except when in display mode. Same with cooking.

[@ribbonsofnight]

Literal balls do not endow anyone with courage.

[@mosaicmind88]

You shouldn't have to apologize for a work of fiction.

[@helenablavatsky9136]

Gangbusters! 💥💥💥💥

[@blackcoffee.]

Love Lionel. Really want to hear that trans opinion. Douglas Murray is the wrong person to challenge. Great story!

[@mvjh2277]

37:24 DEI nonsense went on even as Silicon Valley Bank headed toward failure.

[@alexsimonelis164]

She's good. 🙂

[@colinfeltham7293]

'Beyond this moronic era' - that's quite an ask.

[@castelodeossos3947]

What's the difference between a 'full room' and an 'incredibly full room'? It's a rhetorical question, which means it requires no answer because it's really a comment about the ubiquitous use intensifiers that serve no purpose. The worst one is, of course, 'very'.

[@ceecee6679]

Fear is problematic.

[@brendansherlock6442]

It's, going to take lawsuits to change it. E. G suing an employer for discrimination by DEI over merit

[@blueskiesandgreenpasturesp3848]

You jus hit the truth. This is really about the lack of jobs.

[@annalyons4580]

It will get worse. It won't end well.

[@janlaag]

Bought a Peterson's shampoo the other day and had an amazing shower time, now I've got a mustache and I can successfully be liked by that one masculine category that always treated me as inferior, they always prize me with friendly hands on my shoulder and say they're proud of me, my signature phrase is: "i pity the other women, they're such fearful people pleasers". Nothing can stop me now, i keep my medals well exposed and when the radio plays Frank Zappa's "Bobby Brown" i turn it off, I don't know why but I hate that song.

[@lizbrown1822]

Words that pertain to a person….so what happened to ‘who’ and ‘whom’? Everyone is now ‘that’.

[@indiefleurs]

What a woman.

[@DANVIIL]

None of Shriver’s critique is surprising when you think about who dominates publishing in the America.

[@albertdittel8898]

Wonderful content! We need more of this kind of cis female white writing persons!!!

[@CL-he4jz]

😂

[@ianburns6218]

Get on! Shriver's on the couch. Shhh

[@sandybottom6623]

Please be original. That's what we pay for.