Lisitsa's Beethoven Presto is Historically CORRECT. On just one (important) condition.

Valentina Lisitsa's Presto Agitato from Beethoven's Moonlight sonata is a first class technical achievement. Reaching that incredible speed is one thing, being on top of her game as she is, is something of a different universe. Would you believe that these speeds are documented as early as 1863? But that source comes with a huge price, in fact it has the power of changing our musical landscape forever.
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[@Maja-uq5uw]

I like the direction your channel is going! I discovered it a couple of months ago, watched some old videos and performances. Compared to videos from 2 or 3 years ago, you articulate you points a lot clearer, more quickly understandable and more coherent. I cant say im fully convinced that either “side“, for lack of a better word, is historically correct, but im by no means a musicogist. I can say however that the ‘slow‘ has opened up a whole new world of beaty to me. What i would really like to see from your channel, would be a summery, maybe a document, of the information. You have made a lot of good points, but they are scattered in dozens of videos. I think condensing them in a well ordered document, video or something would make it a lot easier for ‘newcomers‘ to fully understand where you are coming from. Perhaps you could add some of your strongest sources as well. Maybe you have already done this and im not aware, if so please tell me where i can find it! iirc you said you were writing a book about this at some point as well? Stay healthy!

[@AuthenticSound]

Great to read, there is an intro video in the description!

[@michaelshark1]

She plays it Amazing, the 3rd movement has so much passion, energy and great expression. I have Great respect for her. True Concert pianist.

[@RoberTVShow]

This video’s comments section is probably the nerdiest thing available on the internet today

[@Aalii6]

thank you for covering this topic, it is very interesting

[@AuthenticSound]

Glad you liked it!

[@Contrapunctus1984]

For me this is the strongest and clearest evidence for WBMP in conjuction with Czerny's metronome numbers so far. Excellent work there!

[@AuthenticSound]

Thank you Zsolt, always great to read your thoughts

[@8beef4u]

I know it's subjective, but why is the sound of the actual music not considered? Sometimes the greatest piece of evidence is what the music actually tells us, not any marking written on the page. We may not know the original tempo intentions after being obfuscated by history, but we can infer the spirit of the music by interpreting it.

[@VictorIbelles]

Presto is Italian for fast, putting bmp aside... the piece should feel fast, also he added agitato .... so it should be fast and agitated, your tempo doesn’t feel fast nor agitated , if Beethoven wanted a nice comfortably tempo then he would have wrote adagio, andante or allegro. You are analyzing music as if it was pure math... and while basically it is math 😂, it’s about feeling too! presto agitato means fast and agitated, you can play it at any bpm you like as long as IT FEELS FAST AND AGITATED

[@AuthenticSound]

"putting bmp aside". But that's the whole point, indeed it is 'basically math'.

[@VictorIbelles]

AuthenticSound if you think the whole point of music is math ... then You have failed to understand music

[@thomashughes4859]

@@VictorIbelles Actually, Vic, Music IS only maths and physics. If you have an emotional response to it that's great. The problem with "your" music is that it's utterly subjective, and you can hide behind that; what you cannae hide behind is the raw maths. Presto means "quickly", not "fast"; that would be "veloce". You need to spruce up on your EYE-talian a little. At the WBMP tempo, 6.13 is within 12% of the instrument's max speed. I hope you're leaving room for "prestissimo", which means very quickly (the -issimo ending gives it away ... shhhhh). I hope that's not too much maths for you; however, THAT is OBJECTIVE, and my maths cannae be refuted; your emotional issues can. Have a nice day. PS - look up the quadrivium to become better educated in exactly what music is. Thanks!

[@VictorIbelles]

Thomas Hughes music can be analyzed using math... but music isn’t a science, it’s art, yeah emotions are subjective but that’s the entire point to it, music wasn’t invented to be objective, it was invented to make you feel something even if it’s subjective , and yeah, my bad presto means quickly not fast, I speak Spanish, English and a little bit of German, French and Italian therefore I sometimes get a little messed up searching for the correct word, anyway “sound” is math and physics, but turning sound into music is a whole different thing ... you don’t compose or play music trying to be “correct” you do it to express emotions I’m actually pretty damn good at math so I understand the musicologist/mathematician point of view... and yes it’s technically correct But Beethoven wasn’t a mathematician or a physicist... he was a musician Yes... your math cant be refuted... and I do have an emotional response to music and I’m proud of it , also I can see the math behind it, but if you can only see music as math instead of experimenting the emotional response that the composers\musicians tried to portray in their work then I really feel sorry for you as you are only seeing half the picture I’d rather play everything “wrong” Than being a soul less musician that only cares for the “correct” way of playing it

[@panurgeceline]

I deeply agree

[@wolfgangamadeus2712]

Then what about Czerny tempo indication for this Presto agitato? He writes a half note= 80! And apparently, he was familiar with Beethoven's intentions on this sonata!

[@Renshen1957]

The 1815 Maezel Metronome instructions state Prestos are indicated for measures, not for the notes in the measure. Check this out among Wim’s many videos, one is for English instruction, and one video covers the German version of the instructions published later.

[@anthonymccarthy4164]

Another very persuasive bit of evidence. I've found it a great pleasure getting used to this performance practice, it totally changes the view of Beethoven that I grew up with.

[@oykuozer5624]

i love this channel!!

[@SinanAkkoyun]

Explain why so many violin pieces would be sooo slow with your tempo

[@turtlellamacow]

Because this is a crackpot theory, but he will explain away all of the glaring counterevidence as usual, and probably remove these comments too.

[@VictorIbelles]

Sinan Akkoyun because he’s only considering the mathematical side of music instead of combining maths and emotion as it should be.... it’s technically correct... but music wasn’t intended to be correct, I’d rather hear Valentina playing it “wrong” than someone else playing a 100% correct version mathematically speaking... or even a robotic programmed midi as it would be the same crap as a soul less player that’s only worried about math instead of music

[@SinanAkkoyun]

@@turtlellamacow No, don't get me wrong, many piano pieces make more sense with his theory, it just does not align with other instruments

[@tristancouloumy]

@@SinanAkkoyun That's because it doesn't make any sense. He intentionally uses clickbait titles, omits arguments that would disprove his theory in a heartbeat, openly criticizes artists whilst saying he doesn't ("I'm not criticizing her but [...] she's just WRONG") and focuses solely on the bpm (which, in Beethoven's time, wasn't even a thing, and in Czerny's time, wasn't reliable)... Even his rhetoric is that of a charlatan trying to sell you his magical solution that he and only he knows. As a musician myself, I find this type of content utterly laughable.

[@he1ar1]

Vivaldi's presto from summer is constantly butchered, why? There are no tempos marks and people take this as a license to play it as fast as possible. They play it in the style of Paganini. Whose contemporaries we are told focused on tone and rejected technique that focused on agility. Sounds like they might not have played as fast.

[@adriannachtwey3138]

okay, there are a few things i'd like to say about your arguments: 1. Your tempo is half as fast as Czerny tells you to play. You're playing at 92 bpm for crotchets where it should be minims. So acutally, Lisitsa follows Czerny. 2. Using Czerny as a source for tempi Beethoven might have wanted is difficult, because Czerny isn't Beethoven and Beethoven was often misunderstood. Just think about the "Erioca" and the beginning of the Reprise. 3. You misinterpreted Marx' quote.You're right, he says that many players are too fast. But he doesn't say, they were played twice as fast as they should. 4. The fact, that players slow down in the measures you talked about in your other video about this issue can be explained by musical parameters and the climax of the piece you obviously missed.

[@AuthenticSound]

Czerny was Beethoven's best student and long-live friend, so... citation needed. Here is a video for you kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHbKfoOelNFkeKs

[@adriannachtwey3138]

You’re quoting yourself to back up your opinion?

[@thomashughes4859]

@@adriannachtwey3138 You need a citation.

[@adriannachtwey3138]

@@thomashughes4859 For which part exactly do you think I need citation?

[@adriannachtwey3138]

@@AuthenticSound Okay, so let's review what Czerny wrote about using Mälzel's Metronome. In the third part of his Pianoforte-Schule op. 500 first published around 1840 you can find a chapter called "Vom Gebrauch des Mälzeschen Metronoms (Taktmessers.)" [On the usage of Mälzel's metronome] pp.48ff. There you can read the following: "Wenn zum Beispiel die Vorzeichnung vorkommt: M.M. [Viertel] = 112, so rückt man das metallene, an der vordern mit Einschnitten versehenen Stange angebrachte Dreieck genau auf jenen Einschnitt, der mit der rückwärts befindlichen Zahl 112 in einer Linie steht, lässt die Stange frei schlagen, und spielt jede Viertelnote genau nach den hörbaren Schlägen des Metronoms. Wäre das Vorzeichen [Achtel]=112, so hat jede Achtelnote dieselbe Geschwindigkeit; - oder [Halbe]=112, dann muss jede Halbenote eben so schnell sein." p. 49. I don't want to translate that for you, but I'm sure you'll understand. So this means that when Czerny tells you to play the third movement of Beethoven's "Mondscheinsonate" in a tempo where the minims = 92, you're tempo is half as fast as it should be.

[@TorAndreKongelf]

So I have been thinking a while about this. And that many pianists today play those bars with 32nd notes way slower is not a good argument for any double beat tempo on this piece in my opinion. Just because people slow down today for the musical reasons, doesn't mean you have to. Its fully possible to play those bars in tempo. Artur Schnabel does it. It might sound strange for us since we are not used to them being played in tempo, but that's not a good argument. And I do it here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eIDKk5V-lMarpaM

[@johnprice3341]

Great example! Play it as written, thanks for that!

[@azraelgargoyle]

True, however it is not the only argument for the notion that somewhere in the 19th century musicians started to play pieces faster and faster to impress audiences with flashy performances rather than authentic ones. There are many more arguments to support this, some of which he discusses in other videos.

[@imrevadasz1086]

No, the slow down also has technical reasons, it's impossible to play a tempo in the "single beat" tempo. You shouldn't be slowing down for technical reasons, unless there is some indication from the composer.

[@farrelpermadi5471]

Me: See this, and watch it Me: 0:48, oh my God! The cat is so cute

[@thomashughes4859]

IF Czerny, for example, meant half beat with his M.M. Minim = 92 originally, and Marx is stating that "current" players are playing twice as fast as THAT, then you have a Beethoven "Presto Agitato" that is a staggaring ... sit down please ... 24.53 ... notes per second STRUCTURALLY! That would be a whopping 92 measures per minute of a "C" time piece. This is not anywhere near the fastest tempi recorded by anyone from about 1815 and before - EVER! Playing at 24.53 ... nps means that you are playing so fast that you are producing the note "G-sub-0" on that very same piano. COOL! ... but completely undoable - FULL STOP - FIN!

[@surgeeo1406]

That's already an audible frequency on the keys themselves 😮 Sidenote, I really admire your math ability, and I won't even try to follow it 🙂

[@fidelmflores1786]

Your logic is irrefutable. But the single beaters will simply say something nasty about Marx...then Wim. It's sad.

[@thomashughes4859]

@@surgeeo1406 Thanks, Sergio!

[@thomashughes4859]

@@fidelmflores1786 Ad hominem was the last straw. I was in effect called a ranter and deaf. Fine. So, I yell because I cannae hear myself - puts me in Beethoven's category (another thing they hate are my conclusions such as these - HAHA!). Anyway, I'm here to serve the greater good, and I find the channel the BEST in "Classical Music" today. Thank you for the compliment.

[@wagonroller3019]

Being deaf means music in your head seems much slower than outside your head. So for music written in your head is faster outside your head.

[@andreassummerer597]

PS. You made a good work!

[@thomashughes4859]

8:14 - this is exactly how a Ph.D. friend of mine described his work. The thesis is NARRRRROW, but when answered, and placed into the mosaic, the picture becomes less "pixelated" and clearer. This is how academia has done its work since the Church placed the academic formula out there more than eight centuries ago. Bravo Wim!

[@NeoCat1993]

You clearly missed the point of what Marx was trying to say. His point is that if you were, in theory, to double the speed of a piece it would ruin it rather than outlining the player's virtuosity, but by no means does he state that doing this was common practice. And in my opinion same goes for halfing a pieces speed - the point is lost. Yes, Presto is somewhat arbitrary, but it is definitely on the very fast side of things, which your interpretation is not. And given that Beethoven was a greatly talented virtuous pianist he has likely been easily capable of smashing those 184 BPM 16th notes. Liszt allegedly didn't want his students to learn the piece since it was so challenging.

[@AuthenticSound]

in theory...hmm not so much

[@flavio5046]

Why pick on her if all pianists are doing this? Just leave her and talk about "all pianists today" and use her video as an example. If you're bottering her to get more views, saying to yourself that it's for a good cause because you'll bring more atention to classical music, don't botter, because her public is already into classical music.

[@mirusvet]

He is obviously triggered, his main premise of this channel just does not connect with people, very few people would listen to his version. Valentina's version is insanely popular(47M views as of now). ps. Maybe in the world where we don't know fast tempo version exist, more people would listen, but definitely not 47M ;)

[@agusdwiriyanto1854]

well... I play Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata as a lullaby, so the slow one is just fit... the fast one is just like waking the dead from their slumbers....

[@johncoleman7122]

I find this whole topic similar to the passionate discussions film restorers get into about the correct frame rate for silent films.

[@MisterPathetique]

The question I have now is: does that also apply to orchestral music? Vocal music? Was the premiere of Beethoven's 9th Symphony more than 2 hours long? Did the flutists, oboists and hornists have enough breath to play phrases twice as long? Did the vocalists have enough breath to sing phrases twice as long? There are definitely strong arguments in favor of your theory, but I still see some problems

[@AuthenticSound]

yes, see the recording of the trio opus 38 recently uploaded

[@andreassummerer597]

I think that Mrs. Lisitsa plays the sonata a "bit" to fast, and I think Beethoven had playd it like you!

[@CzarsSalad]

Even her interpretation of La Campanella is very fast also

[@AtiladePaula]

Hello Wim! Leslie Tung recorded it slowly this year, and that interesting passage at the end turns out even more impressive!

[@surgeeo1406]

Good to know some people give it a try! Gotta go check it out :)

[@MegaMech]

This is a really interesting source. After much thought though, I'm wondering what Marx meant when he mentioned Etudes. It seems he says Etudes are the exception for very fast playing. If we were to take an objective stance, then perhaps we need to evaluate how that statement applies to etudes as he seems to be suggesting that they should be played extremely fast.

[@reflechant]

I love your fact bombs so much.

[@sikroboskop3121]

The theory is cool and all but you kinda have to decide where to pull the line, ok let’s say Beethoven and Czerny used double-beat but Chopin? Liszt? Their pieces become not only not as effective, but also lose the impressiveness and virtuosity that we all adore. Why was Liszt extraordinarily famous with his virtuosity when most of the people could’ve played faster than him?(by faster I mean in your supposed theory) Even if people used double-beat in the romantic era, I’m sure then the composers would’ve put marks like minim=400 because they certainly could play that fast. And to all of you saying “Music is not a competition showing how fast you can play.” Yes, music was and still is a competition and a style of showing off. How exactly do you think Paganini and Liszt got all the ladies lol?

[@dougr.2398]

That is a big cat!!! (Entering stage right at 00:50 ) :)

[@joe4490]

Ironically I watched this video at 1.25x speed.

[@thomashughes4859]

And ironically, what happened next, ironically?

[@joe4490]

@@thomashughes4859 A very intelligent man responded with the wittiest reply I've ever received on a youtube comment. Bravo sir, such élan!

[@aha2700]

The cat steals the show.

[@ytyt3922]

Cats become the star of any video they are in

[@surgeeo1406]

Piano was made into a sport, then and there... Pretty shameful in my opinion... I'm too aware of the cost of excellence, it's not worth it. How many small children are being led to sacrifice their play time for the sake of playing Paganini at 6, a freak show in my eyes? I know it's cheap to use the "think of the children" line, but I really worry about this speed obsession...

[@Mukundanghri]

It is in fact an obsession. My teacher informed me that he often judges competitions and it is mostly a speed competition. He wishes it was more musical.

[@kaybrown4010]

Yes, yes, a thousand times YES. 🙏🏻 The “sport” very often borders on child abuse, in my opinion.

[@thomashughes4859]

Point, set, and match, buddy! Better to get into acrobatics; at least you can win a medal for your country!

[@herobrine1847]

I don’t think you guys know what you’re talking about. Just because a child is a prodigy doesn’t mean they are forced. Children can be smart and passionate about something too, you know.

[@thomashughes4859]

@@herobrine1847 Fair enough. I see your point.

[@PppaulieGualtttieri]

I just hit on your channel. What an excellent source of information. In many cases the tempi are insane nowadays, if you ask me, leaving little or no room for musical details. Your video about the revolution-etude was an eye-opener for me in that respect. Recordings from the beginning of the twentieth century show the tempi were quite a bit slower in those days and have gone up with every new generation of pianists. I was not aware, though, that the original tempi were actually much much slower than in those old recordings. So I am looking forward to re-discover the Beethoven sonatas at autentic tempo! Dank daarvoor en veel succes met dit uitstekende kanaal!

[@AuthenticSound]

Thanks Rob!

[@MrBaldylocks13]

I must say the rhythm you used on the 3rd movement sounded awkward at best, whether compared to Valentina's magnificent performance or not.

[@shikharrana7472]

Cute cat

[@jackfletcher1000]

Both of you are brilliant.

[@2024Warren]

I do not doubt that Herr Marx wrote with great authority about his own OPINIONS regarding interpretation. And people clearly liked what he had to say since it was indeed CONTRAVERSIAL. That does NOT mean it was authoritative. In fact, it more likely means the opposite! I'm not suggesting that he is wrong. But I am suggesting he has no particular claim to being correct. And that is not to say that his opinions are to be dismissed. But they are as relevant as any other commentator's opinion. To suggest that Czerny, a technically profound (if musically mundane) Beethoven pupil, failed to impart valid Beethoven speeds to Liszt is patently ridiculous. Just because Herr Marx identified this as one movement he considers is played way too fast, among several others, perhaps says more about a lack of maturity of Beethoven interpretation among his contemporaries than about their performance speed. A clue to this may be his argument that the finale of the Opus 101, played so fast, robs the listener of its contrapuntal complexity and power. Listen to Barenboim or Pollini play the Op 101 and I would challenge that opinion entirely! Nevertheless, extreme speed IS no guarantee of authenticity and can certainly strip music of some of its power. Barenboim's first youthful recording of the Opus 53 rondo, at a speed far slower than his contemporaries at the time, remains one of my favourite performances of that movement. So how do we gauge the correctness of an interpretation? I do not believe that opnions by commentators like Herr Marx can provide more than a fleeting insight. Just as previous generations of leading performers can only give us an insight into their own transient opinion of the music. I heard a recording of Federic Lamond (a Liszt pupil and regarded as the world's leading interpreter of Beethoven) playing the Pathetique sonata Opus 13. It was fabulously idiosyncratic and wonderful to hear. But I could name several performances from the 50s to today which I would consider more musically satisfying. Does that mean his opinion should be dismissed? Absolutely not. Does it mean it should be exalted as truth? Absolutely not!

[@bassinethannahjacob1380]

If the tempo at which you played it is presto, then what is moderato? Or andante? The quote you read is interesting, but I don't think it supports the idea of playing at that tempo, it suggests that the purpose of the music is not to show bravura. Even though the passage is fast and complex, it's not supposed to be a display of virtuosity, Beethoven actually has something to say (which is certainly true). And so, actually, that quote supports the idea of playing it presto/fast not slowly, it's just that he's saying one should remember what the real aim of the music is.

[@AuthenticSound]

The quote is not only interesting, it is essential, so we cannot just bypass it. Presto : related to what note value? We think today always in terms of impossible technique, and are even not satisfied with the Rach skills Beethoven didn't have. But that's the wrong perspective, note values, harmonic density, time signature, ... the 'pulse' rate in my version is much higher than that of Valentina's where you would beat slower because of larger groups of notes

[@bassinethannahjacob1380]

@@AuthenticSound I totally agree with the idea of playing more slowly, that the notes should always be clear, and playing authentically too.

[@Musicamansa]

Hi, professor. What about the last few measures of Chopin's Étude Op. 10-5? They all have to slow down drastically.

[@AuthenticSound]

same thing

[@addeleven]

I recently read Westphal's _Allgemeine Theorie der musikalischen Rhythmik,_ where the bass notes at the beginning of m. 1, 3, 5 and so on of the Presto are analyzed as phrase endings, with a caesura of half a sixteenth note after them. Try that in half beat.

[@bryanbarajasBB]

Hello, Wim! I actually would ask those players if they can "sing" the passage as fast as possible, at what "tempo" does make "sense" and when that meaning is lost?...

[@kingjensen8091]

This doesn't apply to 16th notes. And the main theme (first bars of the movement) is clearly meant to establish the tonality and not a melody. So being able to sing it is irrelevant until the next theme which is meant to be lyrical. This analysis might work for most of Mozart though.

[@roberacevedo8232]

Wim I would like to know your opinion on something We pianists and classical musicians are very involved in compositions. However, not many (to avoid saying nobody) focuses on improvising. Of course, we are not focused on improvising, we are focused on interpreting the score. However, many of the greats were before composers, great improvisers. Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Mozart, Bach etc. Do you think that they showed off when improvising, and left serious stuff for the compositions. In other words, do you think that there was a dramatic change in technique when they improvised but not present when composing?

[@AuthenticSound]

The disconnection of the composer-pianist into a composer + a pianist indeed changed a lot, together with the upcoming "conservatories", where musicians were trained much better, more "professionally", and the taste of the day which didn't look back in time, all caused a rather sudden shift in performance practice indeed.

[@thomashughes4859]

@@AuthenticSound BOOM!

[@AZmom60]

If you’re interested in classical improvisation, check out Professor John Mortenson from Cedarville University. He just published a great book on it!

[@shaihulud4515]

So, Adagio was insanely ssslllooowwwwww... . . .

[@csucskos]

Somehow the YT Gods decided I should watch your last video... So I obviously did. And it is really intriguing. I've never seen the sheet music of the Moonlight sonata, but heard in many performances. (I somewhat like that piece and was curious about different interpretations.) I don't know. My opinion is obviously skewed because I've only heard this piece in mainly one style, but for me the fast paced sounds much better. Again, I did not know that the slowing down was not indicated in the music, and as an amateur musician I have to try it myself, otherwise I don't get a strong grip what would MY interpretation would be. After all these excuses, here is my opinion. The "double tempo" has the presto "feel", your original tempo does not. At least for me. I'll be experiencing with it, to find what I truly think about it. It was interesting hearing your performance, a breath of fresh air. And after all, no matter who is right, the most important thing is to interpret it as one wants, and the audience can choose the most fitting one for them.

[@777rogerf]

Audiences that include almost all of us have been deeply conditioned by listening for our entire lives to works performed at twice the tempi intended by their composers? In order to know what each of us actually prefers, would it not be necessary to spend some time being immersed double best interpretations? Otherwise we are not choosing between two live options, and the "decision" is not truly ours, but has been forced on us by generations of those who are in the !music business ($$$$)

[@lucaschinai7121]

Something in this theory fascinates me. The kinderszenen put a lot of doubts to me and I started doing some little research. I came to hear Koczalski .. how do you rate these recordings which are perhaps the closest to Chopin?

[@thomashughes4859]

1:50 - Halfers and Trolls: Kindly BURN this into your deutocerebra for future reference, please. Thank you. :D

[@surgeeo1406]

Wim needs to make an intro like that, put it on every video...

[@thomashughes4859]

@@surgeeo1406 You bet, Sergio, and he has said it so many time and so many ways, it's amazing the "regulars" who condemn him aren't more savvy; however, for the new and wonderful amazing people who join the community, it's nice to hear. Wim wouldn't hurt a fly, and I mean that.

[@kaybrown4010]

😄👍🏻

[@thomashughes4859]

@@kaybrown4010

[@uhoh007]

Don Quixote 2020. I love the whole quest.

[@felixlucanus7922]

Thank you.

[@robertbrown4435]

Oh I see. Whole beat metronome practice, but what does that mean. If it's 92 beats per quarter note why does it become 92 beats per eighth note? Because the arm goes up and down? As a conductor the up movement is the preparation for the orchestra to come in on the down best. Most important is to express the character of the piece. To find the music in the music. Tempo is important but it's not everything.

[@thomashughes4859]

A pendulum swings back and forth to complete one revolution (or 2 PI radians). Each half shews the note that makes up the whole of the pendulum oscillation (hence, Whole Beat MM Practice). So, if the indication is M.M. Minim = 92, then each "tick" is one crotchet, and each "tock" is the other crotchet. Both the "tick" and "tock" make the whole minim. This started with Galileo up through Mersenne, and into the 19th century. This is how they read pendulums. I finish with Hector Berlioz, and why he thought it was so important to follow the MM numbers. "Therefore, composers ought not to neglect furnishing their works with the metronomic indications, and it is the conductor’s DUTY to study them closely. To neglect this study is equal to an act of DISHONESTY toward the composer". - Hector Berlioz (emphasis mine)

[@teodorlontos3294]

Tempo changes everything, from articulation and phrasing to character. Tempo is important for every other aspect of the music

[@karmmaguitar]

Why trusting so much in the editor of the score?quarter note at 92 is extremely slow but also extremely fast for half note beat. I think both interpretations are wrong and the tempo given is not what the music asks for. Something around 60-70 half beat would be perceived as presto agitato and still would make sense musically and technically for the 32 beat notes part (not to mention that there's already tension added with the harmonic language used in this part), sometimes editors just make stupid decisions. In my opinion music should talk first rather than the editor specially in very old music like this one.

[@RM-zu2nh]

Could you put the title of the book where I could read it or write it here as a comment please?

[@deinauge7894]

"die eine oder zwei Viertelstunden [...] , in denen eine Sonate Op. 101 oder 106 vorüberfliegt" this is a citation from the introduction of the book you showed us here... and it is NOT about performances he thinks are too fast! I will read further, let's see what Marx thought of Beethovens works next thing concerning the tempi: Beethoven seemed to dislike the metronome after some years.. and slowed his tempi down quite a bit. a citation from Schindler : „ Ich hätte Sie gestern bei der Probe umarmen mögen , als Sie uns allen die Gründe angaben, warum Sie jetzt Ihre Werke anders fühlen, als vor 15 - 20 Jahren. Ich gestehe aufrichtig , dass ich in frühern Jahren öfters mit diesem oder jenem Tempo nicht einverstanden war, weil ich es anders fühlte, nämlich die Bedeutung jener Musik. Auch bei den Proben in der Josephstadt war es schon deutlich erkennbar und vielen auffallend, dass Sie die Allegro's alle langsamer haben wollten als früher. Ich merkte mir den Grund gut, ein ungeheurer Unterschied! was tritt so alles in den Mittelstimmen heraus, was früher ganz unhörbar, oft verworren war.“ And after that, Marx wrote what is citated in the video: that it is possible to play the finale of op.101 double the APPROPRIATE tempo. he does not refer to metronome markings there!

[@AuthenticSound]

yes, and...?

[@deinauge7894]

@@AuthenticSound well, from what i understand from the book: slower tempi are totally fine, the composer himself developed towards them (and also towards more rubato playing, acvording to another citation in the book). but there is no proof of any metronome theory. what Schindler wrote (see my original comment) implies a very fast (too fast to hear details) playing in his earlier years. Marx prefers the old unspecific italian words (allegro, adagio, etc) edit: one of Beethovens friend is cited with the remark that he chose a different tempo every time he played his own works

[@dougr.2398]

Did you say in the Patreon vidéo That thé organ has been moved out from in front of the library? To where, if so?

[@MirdjanHyle]

"there's no way you can double the tempo of almost any pianist!" Mmmh, maybe Hamelin 🤣🤣✌️

[@markphillips4265]

Are there any historic accounts of how many minutes & seconds the third movement was when played by Beethoven and his contemporaries? That'd prove the intended MM once and for all.

[@AuthenticSound]

it would at best say something about an extreme diverse landscape of performances where the intentions of the composers didn't count for much. pretty much as today

[@markphillips4265]

@@AuthenticSound I disagree, sorry. Your assertion is that over the centuries we have progressively increased the tempi of this and other works. If that is true, then I believe that the historic accounts of performances from contemporaries or pupils of Beethoven would be much closer to the speed he had originally intended.

[@ThePultzFamily]

This channel has been a real eye opener. As a composer it sort of annoys me that pianists ruin music in order to show off their technical capabilities. Now I have to rediscover the chopin etudes I thought I couldnt play. This issue about tempi is a conspiracy on the level of 9/11. Thanks a lot for enlightning us!

[@AuthenticSound]

great to have you here!

[@janne7263]

Its exactly that, a baseless conspiracy theory.

[@frankentronics]

It is my understanding that Piano Sonata No 14 was nicknamed "moonlight" by music critic Ludwig Rellstab who said it reminded him of moonlight be heard it being performed by the moonlight. I am not sure what year this sonata got this nickname. The reason I mention this is because the 3rd movement, the way it's played today, cannot remind anyone of "moonlight". Of course the 1st movement does. So, I am wondering at what tempo the 3rd movement was being played when Ludwig Rellstab got inspired to call it the "Moonlight" sonata and also at what tempo the 1st movement was played. Any thoughts?

[@AuthenticSound]

indeed it was, the sonata is available on our channel for you to check out!

[@dopolla1]

Interesting! I knew that most of his pieces were play faster than originally, but had assumed that they had been "sped up" back in the early 20th century when they started to try to fit them on a side of a 78 rpm record.

[@twosteppingyanks]

David, you should do some follow up research, this is pretty fringe stuff. Take with a massive grain of salt.

[@the.spin.doctor]

@@twosteppingyanks I've looked around and I can't find much information on it - I can't find people who argue that these pieces are supposed to be faster, do you have any suggestions where I should look?

[@RM-zu2nh]

Könntest du bitte den Titel des Buches hier in den Kommentaren auflisten?

[@wally3086]

please can you help me also with lute siutes of j.s bach?

[@macrubit]

Are there no quotes about the duration of interpretations in seconds from Beethoven’s era? Nobody mentioned ‘such concert took one hour and ten minutes’ and so on? I think that would be an piece of evidence for you theory.

[@surgeeo1406]

@@miwdb5319 What do you have at stake in proving Wim's theory wrong? Usually, you use evidence to prove things right. Are you trying to prove anything at all, or do you just want to prove Wim wrong, and if so, why? I'm way more inclined to support people who mind their own business, make their own academic research, and nothing more.

[@surgeeo1406]

@@miwdb5319 Prove the evidence wrong then. His evidence. In the video.

[@surgeeo1406]

@UC7z8ALadZE5KEsbdSgM_UzA You need to prove that those historical timings were attempting to follow the metronome numbers, that metronomes were used there to check, or that the scores they used even had those numbers. Falsify your own evidence before using it. Is what I'm asking going too far? People played as fast as they could always, people were writing about it in Bach's time, it doesn't prove anything.

[@philedet9827]

@@surgeeo1406 Can you tell us who wrote about playing too fast in Bach's time. I am curious

[@dougr.2398]

Wim, havé you been hitting the Moonshine?!! I heard that gaffe/slip!! ;). Oh! I get it now on a « re-listen »! « mondschein » is the original German for « Moonlight » and technically, it transliterates to « Moonshine » which has an unfortunate alternate meaning in America!

[@AuthenticSound]

possibly! German/English all the time, you know, it's difficult for me even to talk about this stuff in my mother tongue (would be great though)

[@thomashughes4859]

@@AuthenticSound HAHA! Shine seems more appropriate as an English translation, but the orginal KY version of the drink came because they had to distill at night to keep the law off their backs whilst they made their illegal elixer. :D

[@dougr.2398]

Thomas Hughes it is NOT just found/made in KY!!! (Don’t ask!!)

[@thomashughes4859]

And THEN, IF Adolph wondered by people were playing "double tempo", why would there not have been an uproar about "well Czerny put the MM on this, and we're just playing "his" tempo", right? Why did THAT not happen? We hear all the time what is "not said" about WBMP, so where, pray tell, is the documentation putting old Marx in his place? Hmmm ... because of what you read, and what you do not read. :D

[@AuthenticSound]

excellent point

[@joelmacinnes2391]

I'm sorry, I might have missed something, but why does it matter if you can't double the generally accepted tempo?

[@AuthenticSound]

Hi Joel, you might have missed the point - Marx said that virtuoso players could double the "correct" tempo in these pieces if they wanted. That "correct" tempo was the metronome mark, that, in our reading today, already is almost impossible in these cases. So in order to give sense to that quote of Marx, we must assume that that metronome mark was originally read in a different way, much like physics still count a pendulum's swing - the one and two as one beat. This video might clarify a bit more: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJaXm618p6ihhKc

[@anmeirdi]

which metronome tempo to achieve would you advise someone who would now start studying the moonlight sonata (3th movement)?

[@AuthenticSound]

Czerny's!

[@anmeirdi]

@@AuthenticSound thank you!

[@Nikeairxxx]

Come on single beat beliefers play twice as fast as Lisitsa's !

[@pilot349]

We need to talk with Valentina Lisitsa's teacher to know why her tempo is fast. Maybe we are just discovering alternative way of learning.

[@johncoleman7122]

Modern virtuosi don't have to worry about historical "accuracy". They are designing a modern performance to appeal to today's audiences and to feel "right" to their talent and esthetic. Just like our modern fighter pilots don't take into account Civil War re-enactors. They are taking up two different challenges.

[@OutbackBoy]

What does the footnote or appendix attached to Op. 27 in the excerpt say?

[@tommasobego4816]

I think that's the sonata number, like Op. 27 n° 2 (27²)

[@cavendish009]

I was surprised how much more sense your slower version made. I had never heard it played at that speed before but you can hear the phrasing of it and it was lovely.

[@AuthenticSound]

Glad you like it Vanessa!

[@matejhaas]

But is it possible that Czerny belongs exactly in this category that Marx labels as pianists, who play twice as fast? that would explain some of Czerny´s outrageously fast tempo markings (read in single beat)...and maybe Beethoven´s music was meant to be played slower than what Czerny indicates (read in single beat), somewhat similar to the speed at which we play today?

[@stevenreed5786]

Czerny was a well known piano teacher for decades. He must had known what an average piano student could do. It makes me doubt that Czerny would have wanted to play at outrageously fast tempos, even though he could. Most music teachers I've met over the years don't seem to be showoffs, esp in front of the students.

[@albertosanna4539]

That would not explain though why even the best pianists of today do not have enough technique to reach those speeds

[@matejhaas]

@@albertosanna4539 Cz. op. 299 in single beat is ridiculous, I agree. But Beethoven, for example: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nXLMipRnasZ4bMU and kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKbGc5mOpah0bNU

[@AuthenticSound]

There is no escape here, neither with Czerny. He wrote that this sonata is 'not difficult to learn'. Well, not in Valentina's tempo I'd say...

[@albertosanna4539]

@@matejhaas well...if Beethoven is not insane as well... it's him the one who gave the most mysterious MM of the history (Hammerklavier). Or maybe also his symphonies are interesting to check...

[@Zharmonic]

With all due respect, this hardly means anything. Tempi markings were used inconsistently throughout the history - take allegretto in La Campanella. While one might dare to say today's performers take that piece as a virtuosity display and are therefore wrong (as Liszt would have chosen presto otherwise (though we know this is not true, as in countless letters Liszt is said to have performed this piece playing so fast that people couldn't see his hands) ), you do not take into consideration circumstances in which a tempo might have been chosen - publishers wanting to sell the partitions more easily (presto wouldn't sell well as piano eas mostly played by amateur housewives)... So to say a tempo making is the paramount symbol of a composer's will is ludicrous. We would all far more benefit of following our own sensibility and intuition, rather than to blindly follow a few words.

[@AlijandroI]

Could you please add links to performances in the description next time.

[@dougr.2398]

Wim, links to the book would be appropriate, do you think?

[@agalloway4481]

I found it on Imslp: imslp.org/wiki/Anleitung_zum_Vortrag_Beethovenscher_Klavierwerke_(Marx%2C_Adolf_Bernhard)

[@dougr.2398]

I think there is also a link at the end of the Wikipedia article?

[@LION0fPride27]

this song needs to be played fast it just does, playing it slow doesn't sound right.

[@thomashughes4859]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pX2Vc2B3dtOmftE

[@xmvziron]

@@thomashughes4859 pretty immature, don't you think?

[@DonswatchingtheTube]

How could we know if Beethoven didn't himself compose more than one version at different tempos? More than one version could have been passed on as the recieved version.

[@saulmighty]

By finding evidence for the theory, not just speculating. It would make a convenient solution so that everyone can be happy. But.I doubt Beethoven anticipated that sometime in the future a bunch of people will argue about the right tempo and chose to create different versions just to appease everyone in the year 2020...

[@RosssRoyce]

Haha you are so good globally that it’s real pity that such great part of your vid presentations/focus goes to the theme of speed and tempo. I’d rather hear you dwelling on stylistic, expression..even technical matters, to my taste it would be much more interesting . Cheers

[@AuthenticSound]

I have a lot of videos on interpretation and the will come back. The tempo videos set the floor in a way

[@Sveccha93]

Well, you'd know better than another person what they are interested in and should talk about. Everyone knows that you know best! Thanks for finally coming here and helping. Phew!

[@surgeeo1406]

@@Sveccha93 Well, it was a compliment you know, he just misses the theory content, and to be frank, so do I 😁 But he's doing a whole book about it, so we'll just get that eventually.

[@Sveccha93]

Sergio F fair enough, but I stand by my jab. 😉

[@RosssRoyce]

AuthenticSound okay, thanks!

[@alb_reuel]

i don't understand why the beggining has to be so slow, why don't you find a way to play the diminished interlude fast while trying not to compromise the speed of the beggining that much? about the obedience to tempo, i disagree there's no other ground to establish it, obviously there is the "presto" indication, subjective though as it is, doesn't leave the music without ground for agreement about the speed.

[@thomashughes4859]

The beginning for a "C" and to achieve the "agitato" is "fast". Six notes per second is about the "max" on the instrumet of the time, especially the doubles semiquavers in the theme (see meas. 76, etc). Even "speed demons" make those more quavers than semiquavers.

[@albertosanna4539]

Yeah and what's more precise? An Italian tempo word or a metronome number? Because those were precise speed indications that the composers wanted us to follow, as they thought they were the best suitable tempi for their music. Otherwise why would they waste their time to mark those, right? As well as the pedal indications, the fingerings, the dynamics, the pauses, the slurs and the articulations, right? The composers of early 19th century eagerly waited for a device that could give the time, as that would have left no room for interpretation of how fast a "presto" should have been

[@albertosanna4539]

Plus I think that a genius such Beethoven might have known something about how his own music should have been played. Unless somebody pretends to know better than him, but does anybody have the nuts to make such statement?

[@alb_reuel]

@@albertosanna4539 music is almost never about precision. but i see your point. i see beethoven as kind of a control freak who wants to direct every aspect of his music as well. i just think being able to interpret historically what beethoven meant by presto (in light of his late classical convictions) and the intentions behind his literature is significantly more important than trying to be very rationalist about his music (seeing that he was a man of the early XVIIIs and not a technocrat musician of the XXs)

[@alb_reuel]

@@albertosanna4539 about this i don't see a very solid cause-effect about tempo and precision, why would he use the more subjective presto indication, if he had an objective direction?

[@galenogarbeferreira4616]

This novel is already going too far... I'm tired. All info provided was already enough to people to get points from all sides. Please, next topic on the repertoire please.

[@AuthenticSound]

on the contrary, this video marks an important point that I will elaborate : the 19th century performances were super diverse, but almost always pointed towards fast-faster-fastest, rarely taking the composer's wish into consideration. It is part of an ever returning question: when did IT change? Never. Whole beat just silently died

[@ALUMOX]

valentina's version will always be the best. period.

[@AuthenticSound]

I can live with that Sophia

[@Sveccha93]

In my opinion, this is actually one of the strongest evidences yet. How could anyone play these works at *twice* the typical performance speeds?

[@robertbrown4435]

Uhm what is wbmp,?

[@roberacevedo8232]

Whole beat metronome practice Check out the video how fast did Beethoven or Mozart played.

[@damonb.martin2409]

It’s a conspiracy theory that fast music doesn’t exist and that one of the greatest piano virtuosos in history played the presto of this sonata at the pace of a plonking donkey,

[@thomashughes4859]

@@damonb.martin2409 Oh Damon, me thinkest that thou exaggerateth-es ... a LOT! FYI, physics professor, the theory is based upon Galileo's formula; the only one we have for the time period of a pendulum. To get beats per minute or your precious halfbeat theory, you must divide the time period into the number 120, not 60. If you don't understand what I just wrote, then kindly refrain from conspiracies and plonking donkey rhetoric ... you sound silly.

[@tangoalpha4763]

Really? Really? Come on.

[@AuthenticSound]

Really! Really! Yes!!

[@nikanm2387]

It says presto, so it’s fast,

[@thomashughes4859]

Compared to what? "Fast" in 1801 was simply not fast compared to today. By 1830, the steam locomotive could make 36 mph, and a horse sprinting could outdo that locomotive by another 14 mph. Presto means "quickly", not "fast". If you want "fast" in Italian, you need the word "veloce", which is not a musical term. Nonetheless, if it's "fast" you want, you are talking MAX 7 notes per second because a repeated note on the pianos of 1801 simply could not respond faster than that. In the development of mvt III of the "moonshine", you have several repeated semiquavers, and they would not sound unless you respected the instrument's tolerances. The machine simply couldn't go "fast". Now at WBMP, M.M. Minim = 92 provides a maximum semiquaver speed of 6.1333... notes per second, which was THE FASTEST you could play on the machine (Czerny gave a 12% tolerance). Fast to us is as fast as we are able to go because the new machine is more responsive than we can possibly play; fast to them was 7 notes per second.

[@AuthenticSound]

And it is!

[@thomashughes4859]

@Jonathan Ross off the top of my head it was measure 76 and in two more places that follow. It is where the bass takes the theme in the development in G maj.

[@thomashughes4859]

@Jonathan Ross it is a semiquaver followed by a crotchet, but that "distance" is a semiquaver's. Ie it's a repeated note at 6.1333 nps at Czerny's WBMP. At half beat it cannot be done in 1801.

[@sikroboskop3121]

@Thomas Hughes you also have to count the fact that Beethoven, at the time, was clearly disappointed with the performance of the Pianofortes. He sent letters to the manufacturers, saying that they should build stronger and faster instruments. The pianos were simply no match for Beethoven’s abilities and this piece clearly shows that.

[@irishmusicpainter]

Surely composers freely admit that what they put down on paper, is only an approximation of what they are trying to express, and so I don't understand this fixation people have about exact tempos etc.

[@thomashughes4859]

I have never read that Beethoven stated that. Please, if you have a document that demonstrates Beethoven's ambivalence to his tempi, I would certainly read it.

[@albertosanna4539]

Of course it's only an approximation, as the ink on the paper doesn't make sound nor play that music. But it also tells you all the most important aspects of performance you need to respect. Otherwise why bother in writing them, right? Also does the fact that what's written on paper is an approximation, automatically mean that everything marked by the composer needs to be disregarded?

[@AuthenticSound]

Beethoven had that "fixation", should be enough argument for us!

[@thomashughes4859]

@@AuthenticSound He did love a good time piece, didn't he? The clocks of yesteryear were the Cadillacs of today. Only the classy and well-to-do could pay CASH for them. :D

[@ralphkeating7564]

Thank you!!!!!

[@AuthenticSound]

You're welcome!

[@40turati]

Thanks.

[@AuthenticSound]

You're welcome

[@thomashughes4859]

First!!!

[@kaybrown4010]

🥇

[@thomashughes4859]

@@kaybrown4010

[@lesptitsoiseaux]

Can you please be quiet and just play. Play. Play the piece. Let the music talk.

[@dezmilcoisas]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/g5XFZ4mferKHeq8

[@willemeret2398]

You must be miserable listening to music always so concerned with tempo?

[@roberacevedo8232]

I don't know if you are not aware of this, but the sole purpose of this channel is reconstruction using mm. That's what this channel is almost completely about. If you didn't know that, then there you go. If you did know it, then you must be beyond moron.

[@thomashughes4859]

HAHA! That's like saying I miserable as a physics professor being concerned with maths. It's a passion of ours!

[@AuthenticSound]

Why?

[@thomashughes4859]

@@littlefishbigmountain

[@willemeret2398]

AuthenticSound I would like to know if you like how music is interpreted by artist of the past 100 yrs that we have recordings of? You just seem so fixed on tempo, maybe I came off harsh in my original statement.