🔴LIVE CYBERSHELL VS LS MARK DEBATE (Sonic Adventure 2 vs. Sonic Heroes)

Sonic Heroes is better - Mark

[@jeffery6604]

To talk about the structure of the debate for a bit; it was 100% serious and definitely not a joke, every view expressed by both parties were completely serious and not said in jest and when Cybershell and Mark were mean to each other they meant it entirely, thank you.

[@SpeedySteedyYT]

Only true gamers would remember that the pinned comment used it say, “Video starts at 5:00”

[@sjahbw]

Ok

[@TheReZisTLust]

@Wynn Wilson 14:00

[@tonyhakston536]

@@TheReZisTLust 13:50

[@davis.9968]

No

[@leandrotoniut1619]

Best argument Cyber never made: "Every time I point out a flaw in the gameplay you say 'That's not the case if you are good enough'. Why would I care to become good enough if the gameplay is shit until I do?"

[@leandrotoniut1619]

@@Sabrosas When Cybershell mentioned the lineal nature, when he was talking about the combat system, and when Cybershell said the momentum was broken constantly because you had to switch characters all the time.

[@rynobehnke8289]

I don't know why he didn't make it but I guess if he likes Unleashed would he seam hypocritical for using it as Unleashed day stages are almost nothing but Try and Error

[@-PV-]

Because thats just how vidya games are. You only really start to enjoy them once you. You know. Git gud?

[@leandrotoniut1619]

​@@-PV- A good game can be enjoyed in a certain way when you first play it, and in a different way when you get better. Super Metroid is the perfect example: It's not so hard that you can't beat it and have a great time once you pick up the controller, but on your second playthrough you can further appreciate it.

[@-PV-]

@@leandrotoniut1619Fair, I don't really have a retort for that. Infact, it's pretty relatable when I think about it, I usually enjoy my vidyas on repeat playtroughs way more than first time (not that the first time is bad or anything but it doesn't have the same appeal)

[@Noviicore]

"If you're a child, I hate you." - Cybershell 2021

[@Noviicore]

@Classic Tails lol

[@theblazingpyro5914]

@Austin's Games who's classic tails?

[@drewbakka5265]

That like the opposite of most twitter users

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

@@drewbakka5265 oh. _ohhhh..._

[@SgtSega]

To be fair, the kids bash on Classic Sonic and ask for streamlined boost games every year.

[@graymon8093]

marks first mistake was attempting to challenge cybershell in a contest of degeneracy. it was a losing battle from the start

[@zoeythefoxcoon]

never fight a man who has nothing to lose

[@mcqueenspartyisinhell2013]

Ugh this LS Mark guy is really annoying, they should have invited Splash Dash to this debate, he surely knows Sonic a lot better

[@orangesplatanimations]

@ELI BONHAM Damn bro, calm down

[@orangesplatanimations]

@ELI BONHAM I gotta admit your comment is pretty funny

[@dattebayosigma90744]

@ELI BONHAM fr

[@milicatrajkovic7740]

You are annoying man

[@milicatrajkovic7740]

@@dattebayosigma90744 you are right

[@Nitroxity]

1:19:56 Knuckles' story arc in SA2 is LITERALLY him becoming more open and chill with other people, that's the reason why his counterpart is Rouge, a character who's very outgoing and self-emphasized but has multiple layers of secrecy. They're perfect archetypal foils for each other as they have similar issues that they overcome, the issues just manifest themselves differently for each character.

[@shonenbois]

Facts

[@MachExceler8]

Facts

[@SigmaDeGod]

Bro I think they just wanted knuckles playable and said fuck it let’s break the master emeralds again. Don’t think it’s that deep but good theory.

[@isaacargesmith8217]

@@SigmaDeGod in fairness disabling the master emerald also means they cant just disable the the chaos emeralds since the master emerald can just do that if I recall due to it being the "controller" and the chaos emeralds are "the seven servers"

[@BareBandSubscription]

That arc is not in the game at all.

[@Terminal_Apotos]

I’m gonna tell my kids this was the 2020 Presidential debate

[@TheWraithOfMooCow]

Nah, this was far more formal and well-structured than the 2020 Presidential debate.

[@GCplus9162]

@SharinganSakura looks like someone didn’t get the joke

[@KameTrueBlonde345]

It’s 2021 tho

[@GCplus9162]

@Quino oh well I’m fucking stupid

[@calengo454]

@@TheWraithOfMooCow bro you're actually right? now that i think of this, this is far more organized omg i'm just completely in shock

[@gustini2146]

“I’m not going back to play earlier levels” Defends sonic heroes with its quadruple story replay structure

[@MuddyTimms]

Whether you agree or disagree with either sides perspective, the fact that they can debate for 3 hours over a blue hedgehog is fucking hilarious.

[@-PV-]

Idk how it is hilarious tbh. I actually admire that passion they have for our favorite, rockin', blue rat. Regardless if LS Mark did terribly or otherwise. But to each their own good dude. I know I am coming off as a little corny but what do, I love this franchise lol.

[@Squishito]

@@-PV- I agree, respect. Sonic is cool and I like him! Autism squad rise up. Also he's not a rat! He's a hedgehog. I'm not being a spaz, it's a Secret Rings reference...

[@mootwo_]

​@@Squishito "Autism squad rise up" was my favorite line from Secret Rings!

[@Squishito]

@@mootwo_ I'm glad you caught that sick reference, gamer!!

[@aēřøðynamic]

As a sonic fan, I find this hilarious.

[@loungefrog5326]

the lunch tables at school

[@GCplus9162]

Underrated comment 9/10

[@mared7305]

Agreed 😂😂😂

[@VoidCorps]

to the debate table on recess

[@Lnblackberry48]

The reject table

[@Atlink]

I noticed that Cybershell would provide detailed points, explain why levels are designed in certain ways, etc. He made strong points, and was man enough to admit when the thing he loves has faults. You can hear that he is passionate about SA2. LS Mark just complains the whole time, and doesn’t really provide any kind of constructive criticism. It almost sounds like he’s here for the lulz. Cybershell won this debate by miles. Tails prower.

[@Helicopter7]

Ikr

[@PetuniaNewGrounds]

CyberShell is the god of sonic lore and knowledge. And he really put up a good argument. All his yelling were all good points.

[@mared7305]

"Doesn't really provides any kind of constructive criticism.." BRUH you finished all my tears😂😂 What is the definition of constructive criticism to you? That's what I want to know

[@VideosJuandieguinchi]

Clever joke

[@gabrielhenry7237]

That damn tails pun. Well done.

[@Hutch2Much]

did Mark deadass just try to tell us that Sonic Heroes isn’t slippery

[@mechashadow]

They should prank him at conventions by lacing the floor with transparent oil jelly and when he complains about that being slippery, just say “about as slippery as Sonic Heroes innit?”

[@Hutch2Much]

@@mechashadow “man i have no traction here” “oh kinda like Sonic Heroes”

[@Cruzgarcia607]

I hope he got fired for that blunder

[@chucktheyellowangrybird2134]

Come on, guys. There's nothing wrong with Mark saying that. if you guys keep on complaining ill be forced to make a video called There's nothing wrong with Mark saying Sonic Heroes isn't slippery. For god sake, Mark made 2 successful channels. when was the last time YOU made a successful channel...Twice! Unless your name is Matpat you didn't. if u got that reference then ur a real one. Also, nothing I said here is my opinion

[@Cruzgarcia607]

@@chucktheyellowangrybird2134splash dash is his "friend"

[@Rusty_Spy]

"LS interrupting cybershell repeatedly yell, misrepresent the point he's making and saying SA2 is shit over and over does not make you clever" THANK YOU

[@sonicdoesntworkin3d256]

06 was the downfall

[@shadowbannedneet]

56:53

[@joeker5208]

@@sonicdoesntworkin3d256 the Saturn era seemed to be were they started to lose their footing

[@ahmadkazan217]

@@sonicdoesntworkin3d256 Has a Mario pfp and a "sonic doesn't work in 3D" name.Get a life dude.

[@coolman2179]

TBF, both of them were equally yelling at each other and most of the time he was just saying that "You hate this in heroes, but it's also in sa2, so why do you excuse it?"¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@tonys6620]

For someone who complains about the audio overlapping in SA2, Mark sure loves to interrupt Cybershell mid sentence

[@DogmenDogmen]

He made him eat those words.

[@mrcosmos6986]

as much as i love him cybershell does the exact same thing lmao

[@TwitterVS]

we all know what the L in LSMark stands for

[@goldschoalr770]

Luigi

[@Somberwave]

Ligma

[@theminecraft2516]

Linguine from Ratatouille

[@theminecraft2516]

*I KNEW IT*

[@LupinticDream]

@@theminecraft2516 EXCUSE ME

[@dumbsville]

Everybody knows that Project X Love Potion Disaster surpasses all of these.

[@pizzatie5023]

You have sinned

[@DDoe6237]

Was there any other choice?

[@Scroteydada]

That game was my childho- wait

[@Echolovania]

I mean of course, but that game isn't up for discussion.

[@goober7959]

That game is great lol

[@LupinticDream]

It's so weird listening to Cybershell talking like a normal person and not with his usual KZbin personality. I'm shook. Also, I love how Ricardo just laughs and takes a seat back for most of the "debate."

[@InkRoller18]

It’s also weird to not hear him half asleep all the time

[@Scroteydada]

LS Mark becomes the joker while speedsupersonic watches like everything is going to plan

[@clippygoat]

As much as I love both content creators, LS Mark easily lost from this one cause of how his points just focuses on insulting SA2 rather than pointing the good of Sonic Heroes.

[@tlayor9832]

Yeah, most of his arguments were "Sa2 sucks though"

[@CatholicPiccolo]

The funniest thing about it is that Cyber said himself that his notes were mostly about heroes

[@theminecraft2516]

1:46:21

[@theminecraft2516]

LSMark talking about positives in SA2 and negatives in Heroes

[@mared7305]

It's so strange how people deny that he compares & contrasts aspects of SA2 to that of Heroes in the context of the debate...

[@backflipsimmons]

Adults screaming about Sonic the Hedgehog is exactly what I need.

[@ILikeSoda229]

@@jaredjameson3707who

[@Oldschoolgamer13]

LSMark can't admit the flaws of Sonic Heroes. At least Cybershell admits SA2 has flaws.

[@purplesabbath9057]

It seems to me that he's blinded by nostalgia.

[@theminecraft2516]

@@purplesabbath9057 Both are blinded by nostalgia in ways

[@mared7305]

I can't take this seriously, since some people have different values and, for example, don't believe that deflating your own points by admitting flaws is a strength, nor agree on (1) the definition of "fairness" and (2) on the idea that fairness strengthens your side of a "debate". Like, if it was agreed on before the debate and there was an actual _'fair'_ vote on the better debater, then I doubt that 95% of these comments would be half as silly or unfounded

[@mared7305]

@@theminecraft2516 I wouldn't say "blinded", moreso influenced by nostalgia. That "blinded by nostalgia" label is thrown around way too much to have any significance or meaning in terms of properly evaluating people('s points) anymore. Like if ever I was to use it, I'd more likely use it to describe the way Cybershell corrected himself frequently as if he learnt something new about an aspect of SA2 (EDIT: or as if he corrected his judgement)

[@geraldgreg5370]

@@theminecraft2516 I get what you're saying but when I started playing SA2 I had no memories of it up to that point, and I still enjoyed it and thought it was as good as CyberShell says, even if I'm not blinded by nostalgia.

[@josiahaustin9606]

LSMark's constant interrupting and yelling gave me cancer.

[@sonicdoesntworkin3d256]

At least you are not play Sonic 06

[@TheReZisTLust]

@@sonicdoesntworkin3d256 are u sure about that?

[@autumnoraki]

@@sonicdoesntworkin3d256 POV: You're the problem

[@funk.4480]

@@sonicdoesntworkin3d256 facts preach 🙏

[@TristanLackey]

@@sonicdoesntworkin3d256 At least you are not have to read your grammar

[@brendanblair64]

It bothers me that Mark called the GUN Truck a fight

[@Sithedd]

Well you CAN fight back and make it run away in fear so...

[@theminecraft2516]

He might have got his words mixed up. Maybe instead of the GUN truck he meant the GUN flying thing that Shadow, Sonic, and Rouge fight

[@AmazingJuniorBros]

@@theminecraft2516 Well the one sonic fought was big foot, idk what rouge and shadow fight though

[@VirtuousAezon]

@@theminecraft2516 LS Marks' defence squad lmao

[@theminecraft2516]

@@VirtuousAezon No I hated his new video on SplashDash, he made horrible points

[@gocacola8146]

cybershell treats this like an actual debate, while mark treats it like an internet comment section argument

[@zabermagatsu2216]

This proves mark can't make an argument without a script.

[@AmazingJuniorBros]

ikr lmao, he was fr stuttering the entire time trying to come up with points

[@VictoryReviews]

Theres nothing wrong with that

[@FucklesTheEnchilada]

@@VictoryReviews true, but in a debate you definitely need to actually know how to make counterarguments

[@VictoryReviews]

@@FucklesTheEnchilada true it does seem mark came in just to shit post

[@stevenreyes4791]

Dude, this is a debate about fucking sonic games. It ain't that deep, mark is memeing

[@autumnoraki]

Tfw this was still more sensical and civilized than the presidential debate

[@noone-mo6gy]

You're right, that's just sad.

[@PlaguewielderAlchemist]

And they say Sonic fans are bad. Politics have the worst fandom.

[@caylobbailey5149]

Nice kim prp

[@craftygamerones9494]

I don’t think so lmao, this definitely is way more chaotic

[@GCplus9162]

If politics had a fandom it would easily be the third worst fandom only losing to the Christian and Steven universe fandom

[@JuanRecomienda]

"Don´t interrupt me" "NONONONO SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP!" -Ls Mark

[@duckyegg2834]

so true

[@duckyegg2834]

I DUCKING hate ls mark

[@ShadowtheYouTuber523]

33:08

[@sonic1on2wiiu]

Bro why is this discussion so heated lmao I love this

[@whitescarfy7094]

some people are very passionate about the games, and its so fun to watch. i never get tired of listening to videos like these

[@ILikeSoda229]

Isn’t that how all live debates online go? This is actually pretty tame compared to many others.

[@vicdaman]

Cybershell wins from the fact that he can at least point out flaws in SA2, whereas Mark says bogus delusional things like Sonic Heroes controls aren’t Jank and playing through a game 4 times is good game design. And I like Sonic Heroes, I can put it on and have a good time just playing through Team Sonic for an evening, but it is jank as fuck and has a lot of questionable game design. Anyway SA1>SA2>Sonic Heroes

[@andrewkos5560]

I don't know how anyone can actually play Heroes and not say it controls like it's on ice. I also like the game for the most part, but the slipperiness get's very intrusive.

[@Rusty_Spy]

LS Mark acts like a child throughout this whole thing and devolves the whole discussion into petty shitflinging and never letting Cyber get a word in edge wise.

[@imnotcafé]

Very fair assessment

[@vicdaman]

@@Rusty_Spy I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to the bit he is doing. He does over do it though.

[@Tunes5995]

@ELI BONHAM i agree

[@123stinko]

“There aren’t any skips you can do with the bounce bracelet” seriously Mark?

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

He hasn't watched a single speedrun of the game, ffs.

[@AAhmou]

That's the most blatant lie ever.

[@twitchthepocket]

Mark needs to look up a man called Talon2461

[@thebestdoggo3673]

Speedrunners: Allow me to introduce myself

[@123stinko]

@@thebestdoggo3673 fr

[@mr.memento6964]

LS Mark is infuriating in this, his only arguments are: "You're yelling" "Did you even play the game?" "but Sonic Heroes is better though" "Shut up!" He gets mad at Cybershell for doing the same shit as him during the debate, and tries to make him look bad in the process. That being said, it made the debate more interesting and it was still funny as shit to watch. Please do another one of these.

[@shoebillstan8144]

DW he’s just messing around

[@acidpool-ap]

Damn, Cybershell started this debate like a civilized and kind man, and first thing LS Mark did is insulting him. He is really annoying, always interrupting Cybershell and crying. Man...

[@robertwyatt3912]

LS is playing a character. They're doing the silly man & straight man bit.

[@theminecraft2516]

LS Mark is just messing around, you guys get triggered too easily.

[@fat-hat]

I feel bad for him. LSMark is not a good debater.

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

@@robertwyatt3912 Garbage excuse.

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

@@theminecraft2516 Sure, and I have a bridge to sell to you.

[@foodwich2132]

Cybershell is such a Chad. So glad he returned to KZbin. Here’s hoping he stays this time though lmao

[@stevemp7]

damn Mark's arguments fall apart every single time he talks lol

[@manlymcbeefinton2014]

You can tell who won a debate when one person keeps a cool head and keeps there point's consistently throughout the debate meanwhile the other keeps interrupting, just passes of arguments with an unrelated argument with "what about ism"

[@PointingouttheObvious]

So lsmark lost

[@manlymcbeefinton2014]

@@PointingouttheObvious ye

[@chillihog1543]

Plus use the " it's fun" n "git good" card

[@manlymcbeefinton2014]

@@chillihog1543 wait i might know you are you from paradise's old livestream's chat?

[@chillihog1543]

@@manlymcbeefinton2014 Yap, long time no seek bro

[@nelsonsmg77]

You can tell Mark will lose when the first thing he does is insult both sa2 and his opponent

[@Rusty_Spy]

Spends more time shitting on SA2 than actually making points in his favor, and the most he can come up with is 'it's not bad you're just playing wrong'

[@CatholicPiccolo]

@@Rusty_Spy "git gud kid"

[@robertwyatt3912]

Actually you can tell Mark will lose because his opponent is cybershell. Cybershell always wins, it's just a fact of life, I'm sorry,

[@nelsonsmg77]

@@robertwyatt3912 I should be the one apologizing for not figuring that out, bravo

[@milicatrajkovic7740]

Nope man

[@Valhalla_Von]

Chadshell vs.IncLS Mark The outcome was inevitable. There can only be 1 Sonic fan who gets bitches. What a Chad.

[@TDRR_Gamez]

"I haven't seen a game with more of a shift in how people view it than Sonic Adventure 2" Sonic Colors: *Allow me to introduce myself.* Oh and this gem: "Sonic Heroes is a consistently fun ride" Bingo Highway and Team Chaotix: HAHAHAHAHA no

[@nantov2954]

sonic colors is the worst boost game

[@TDRR_Gamez]

@@nantov2954 You just proved exactly what I meant lol Also, I disagree. Forces is FAR worse than Colors. I also rank Colors above Unleashed but that's just because of the werehog being rather tedious, otherwise yeah Unleashed is the better boost game. Out of the first 3 boost games (not counting Unleashed Wii/PS2), Colors is the worst game, yeah, but that's not saying much, it's a phenomenal game on it's own. It just doesn't play much like the others, that's all.

[@dylansurendranath3091]

TDRR Bingo Highway sucks with every team tbh, cuz the garbage pinball physics always cost me my A rank...

[@golddigginboi2187]

@@TDRR_Gamez unleashed is the best boost game.

[@TDRR_Gamez]

@@golddigginboi2187 I don't entirely disagree (Unleashed is a hella good game), but I personally think Generations is more polished in terms of difficulty curve and overall level design. Unleashed is clearly the more "hardcore" of the two. Unleashed does have better visuals and is significantly longer even removing the werehog and terrible medal collecting (by FAR the worst part of the HD version). If you prefer Unleashed then that's fine though, that's perfectly valid and both are great games. It's just that I much rather play Generations from start to end compared to only the best parts of Unleashed.

[@SilverJakler]

I like how Cybershell tried to be civil at first then Mark instantly went for the throat lmao

[@traktor420]

You do realise this was all a joke right? In the middle of the stream, SSS and Mark literally say that it’s a joke

[@SilverJakler]

Yes I do. I know they don't actually hate each other. Friends can still be savage to each other in a joking way, so my statement still stands.

[@kingrollypollyvii5565]

@@traktor420It wasn't funny. He's just being insufferable.

[@NoviceDweeb]

25:38 "I'm not going back to play earlier levels, I'm talking about the main campaign!" "Oh, because the game doesn't force you to do it four times?" Wow

[@brenisis2772]

Cybershell is a chad

[@megasoniczxx]

Yeah, out of all the things Mark said here, this one really baffled me. Even ignoring the game he's defending here, sonic has always been about replaying levels in order to increase your mastery of them so saying "I'm not going back to earlier levels" just feels like a fundamental misunderstanding of what gives these games there replay value.

[@NoviceDweeb]

@@megasoniczxx That's always something people seem to overlook when discussing this series.

[@user-gp5yz5yz4x]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/gnbIc4p4gdqde6M

[@BananaMana69]

@@megasoniczxx Thats where all the time went on Sonic Adventure 2 and what makes it so great. Getting As is actually very challenging and that takes a long time to design well, a few levels do feel like straight bs but most are very fair.

[@giligan1004]

There are bad takes, then there is LS Mark. Cyber dunked so hard the whole video.

[@flariz4824]

LOL

[@giligan1004]

@@flariz4824 my man really put the L in LS Mark 🤣

[@nickb6425]

Cyberdunk 2077

[@ChaddyFantome]

The idea that the Spindash in SA2 isn't an intentional nerf and purely the result of same button syndrome is nonsensical. Every iteration of the spindash since SA2 has been based on the SA2 Spindash instead of the SA1 spin dash. The SA1 spin dash was an oversight and was overpowered so they nerfed it in the next game. Simple as. Also, Espio can't run on walls in heroes. You made that up, LS. Also, Eggman's Space level is his third level, so the time of his upgrade is a non argument. Also, Sonic 3 and Knuckles had interconnected levels so Heroes doesn't have an excuse :P

[@ThatBugBehindYou]

I believe it was stated many years ago that the spindash in SA2 HAD to be different due to the summersault, but I think you can take that and argue that if they felt that the spindash needed to be unchanged that they would've worked around the issue or just removed the summersault. Clearly they wanted to change the spindash if not only for what you said, that it continued to be unchanged for the rest of the games.

[@ChaddyFantome]

@@ThatBugBehindYou First time i hear it was stated. you got a source on that? The SA1 Spindash allowed the player to literally break the game in unintended ways and created glitches that literally soft lock it. Also the idea that the spindash should just let you go through gaps misses the entire point of gaps, which is being a timing challenge to keep you on our toes and vary up the kind of actions the player is doing. Its a clunkier iteration of what would become sliding under gaps in later games, but that doesn't make it a bad concept or mechanic. Sonic needs more ways to break up moving forward in 3D games than in 2D since you can actually see where you are going. It also gave Sonic a new way to interact with obstacles like boxes and enemies with shields and such, keeping the gameplay engaging instead of all your problems being solved with the same 2 moves.

[@aguchamp7766]

@@ChaddyFantome There are a lot of moments in the game that use the immense speed of the SA1 spindash to access hidden areas. I wouldn't say it was purely an oversight.

[@ChaddyFantome]

@@aguchamp7766 Not really.

[@aguchamp7766]

@@ChaddyFantome Speed Highway and Red Mountain are filled with skips and hidden items only accessible by using the spin dash.

[@Yell_Dead_Cell]

Cybershell easily won this thing, he actually goes in depth on all details of both games, Mark just keeps insulting and saying sa2 sucks

[@honkerdoodles2764]

"why are you crying so much" "shut up" "that's not fun that's not fun that's not fun that's not fun nonononononononono"

[@cypher838]

@@honkerdoodles2764 or "shut up cunt let me finish.

[@litjman21]

cyber was just literally giving points like " this part of the game is bad because i dont like it" and you probably agree so you think he won but mark's rebuttals were better than cyber's everyone saying cyber acted "way more mature than mark" im thinking is a joke because cyber was yelling and interrupting the whole time

[@kingrollypollyvii5565]

@@litjman21 I seriously cant think of a single cohesive point that mark made in the entire debate.

[@kvn5336]

Cybershell easily won by a country mile, it wasn't even close. I've never seen such a one sided debate.

[@tlayor9832]

Yes, i did watch 2 sonic fanboys screaming at each other for 3 hours

[@milicatrajkovic7740]

yea

[@Hunter1393B]

fuck yeah i did

[@georgeparker6664]

This is what I've been looking for for years.

[@GMP1isReal]

I don't even care that everyone is nitpicking their arguments, it's just a good time to watch.

[@milicatrajkovic7740]

@@GMP1isReal true

[@compassionateconscious]

Cybershell: Makes valid point LS: That's not true/interrupts Also LS: DON'T INTERRUPT ME SHUT UP I WAS TALKING

[@supercatush]

"Are you dumb or something?" Ok. LS Mark already lost

[@yosh9192]

“Yeah I can admit SA2 has it’s flaws, but it’s still amazing, still you have to admit heroes-“ “NONONONONO SHUT UP IT’S SHIT CYBERSHELL”

[@welshsonic6879]

Within the first 20 minutes Mark reveals Heroes was his first Sonic game, which explains everything you need to know about how he formed this godawful take

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

I mean, Heroes is not bad, but yeah, he's fully biased.

[@twitchthepocket]

genuinely i think this is the only way you can have this opinion. nostalgia can be blinding

[@Emerardo]

Idk I mean Sonic 4 was my first Sonic game and im the first to admit its pretty bad lol. It being your first game has nothing to do with it

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

@sonikchilidog Heroes is not THAT flawed, but Mark did a poor job defending it.

[@cypher838]

Sonic boomer vs sonic zoomer.

[@MASF_]

I never realized how bad of a debater LSMark is. Cybershell as memey as he is, he is spitting actual facts. He understands both game mechanics, Mark is saying Heroes is better because he likes it and you are dumb if you disagree. I like both KZbinrs, but LSMark is very biased. It is like an adult arguing with a child.

[@PepsiMan666]

Did you mean to type mark is biased? Cause the one that's based is cybershell.

[@MASF_]

@@PepsiMan666 Whoops, I corrected it. Typo, my mistake. Lol.

[@melon6444]

Yeah Mark is a funny man don't get me wrong, but unscripted debates don't seem to be his strong suit

[@c0rn701]

Bro.....why does everyone undermine lsmark’s arguements

[@melon6444]

@@c0rn701 Mark doesn't have much of an argument to undermine lol, most of his arguments were just either making stupid or hypocritical claims, denying all criticism Heroes under the mentality of "well I like it" or "well you're just bad", and basically saying "well you're stupid" or interrupting and yelling over Cybershell for anything he couldn't think of a counter to, only to then accuse Cybershell of doing the same thing

[@thatoneguyUknow]

This video just made me realize that Mark is just reverse Arin Hanson.

[@cypher838]

Ls mark is like:sa2 bad heroes good give subscribers. Cybershell is like: *peter Griffin In tuxedo*

[@cringe1488]

Yeah I guess he's only good with a script

[@mared7305]

Wait, that's a grave characterization. "Reverse Arin Hanson"? Um, how so??

[@mared7305]

@Brad Waren, sup bitches. That dynamic is kinda interesting..

[@cypher838]

@@mared7305 arin hates sonic and mark blindly praises sonic

[@Atlink]

I love the fact that I’ve read about 300 comments, and NOT ONE is on Mark’s side.

[@The_K1tten_Earter]

I love winning debates by screaming louder than my opponent

[@geraldgreg5370]

I love how Mark says to Cybershell that yelling and interrupting doesn't make you right and then he proceeds to do that multiple times

[@MachExceler8]

I'm definitely convinced that SA2 is superior.

[@andreistroe8973]

And you're right

[@danewa2008]

And you’d be right

[@amysel]

This whole debate in a nutshell: "My opponent is liar and cannot be trusted"

[@lonk_skonk]

Isn't that all debates?

[@amysel]

@@lonk_skonk Its a South Park reference

[@GCplus9162]

Still better than the presidential election

[@ThatBugBehindYou]

LS Mark understands the flaws in Game Grumps and how Arin unfairly treats his fans and the general audiences regarding the Sonic series, but he acted exactly how Arin would in this debate minus the baby talk attitude and authoritative fallacy pushing Arin does. I think if LS Mark ever feels the need to debate anyone ever again, not just about Sonic but any subject, he needs to reflect on this moment and compare it to how he has seen Arin because this was terrible and probably unironically turned a lot of people away from being a viewer of LS Mark.

[@theminecraft2516]

I think this debate was for fun

[@Rusty_Spy]

I mean clearly this is all just for shits and giggles so we really shouldn't be taking it THAT seriously, but even besides that, Mark is still overall obnoxious as hell and not fun to listen to.

[@DiscordDashie]

I'm seriously reconsidering being subbed to Mark. I think the guy's my age (19-20) and jesus how much he acts like a baby

[@theminecraft2516]

@@DiscordDashie 2:44:26

[@ThatBugBehindYou]

@@theminecraft2516 It's funny you send that timestamp, that is the exact same argument that Arin has used multiple times in the past. Mark really is becoming another Arin and it's sad to see.

[@JAIQMUSIC]

LS Mark lost before the debate even started when he said Heroes was better than SA1

[@sonicdoesntworkin3d256]

Wasnt Sonic Aventure 1 broken?

[@JAIQMUSIC]

@@sonicdoesntworkin3d256 yeah? so? it's fun

[@sonicdoesntworkin3d256]

@@JAIQMUSIC dunkey said the first stage was bearly playable

[@JAIQMUSIC]

@@sonicdoesntworkin3d256 dunkey is shit

[@angelgonzalez4871]

@@sonicdoesntworkin3d256 lol the reason he thinks its broken its because of the shitty dx port that makes some parts of the stages glitchy those parts don't exist in the normal dreamcast version.

[@raidoukuzonoha883]

Cybershell: Well constructed arguments LS Mark: LA LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU good video

[@Pie_The_Man]

Thank you raidou kuzunoha

[@KillyRR]

You nailed it. I dont know how old Mark is but he seems very young. That probably explains his attitude.

[@user-fy1nq3nf1q]

@@KillyRR I think he's in his 20's though

[@KillyRR]

@@user-fy1nq3nf1q So hes GenZ. Well that explains it^^ I hate SA2 for several reasons but its a good game. Heroes is mediocre at best. The controls are not good and getting the CEs is a pain in the a**

[@litjman21]

where?

[@dastanovich2476]

80% of the debate was just Cyberchad beating the ever living shit of LoSer Mark with facts and logic

[@PastaObesity]

The Cap store is closed, too much facts spoken.

[@litjman21]

cyber was just literally giving points like " this part of the game is bad because i dont like it" and you probably agree so you think he won but mark's rebuttals were better than cyber's everyone saying cyber acted "way more mature than mark" im thinking is a joke because cyber was yelling and interrupting the whole time

[@kinger41]

@@litjman21 You're literally still replying to shit like this a year later?

[@godhimself1128]

@@litjman21 lmao you copy and pasted this in some other response too. the absolute state of heroes fans lmaooooo

[@WilliamWilliamWilliamWill]

@@litjman21 false

[@SuperBlackwing]

From watching this, I was able to gain a few notes from the 2. Despite Cybershell being unprepared, he acted mature, proved strong and detailed points, provided criticism and at the end, is able to admit that SA2 has flaws. And you can really have the feeling he has a passion for SA2 to defend it LS Mark on the other hand just acted like a big baby, complaining and shouting the whole time, didn't have ANY strong criticism (with the criticism he provided being some of the most stupid nitpicks I've ever seen), oh, and he's not willing to admit defeat. On the Sunset City Podcast, he's still acting in self doubt, still thinking the election was rigged Mark, if you're reading this, you lost! Stop pretending you didn't

[@ChiefMedicPururu]

"On the Sunset City Podcast, he's still acting in self doubt, still thinking the election was rigged" wut

[@BananaMana69]

Do you really think Dementia Joe got 8 million votes? More then Obummer in both terms?

[@litjman21]

literally everyone in the comments is saying mark is "complaining and shouting" but cybershell was literally YELLING the whole time and giving points like "this part of the game is bad because i dont like it" everyone in the comments is clearly bias against heroes which ruins the point of a debate and you guys probably watch cyber too so more bias

[@liomanwhy]

@@litjman21 even when cybershell yelled, he was on point. Most of his criticisms were fair, so it's easier to forgive his slips ups. Same can't be said about LSMark, that's why very few people defend him. Talking as a "fan" of both youtubers, and both SA2 and Heroes (as if it should matter).

[@BluetheFortune2006]

I don't know if LS Mark vs. Cybershell will have a WrestleMania death match during Jeffery 6's visit to VidCon.

[@andrewkos5560]

The fact that Mark is denying the Heroes grind rail switching isn't bad is genuinely embarrassing. You play most of Rail Canyon/Bullet Station in Fly Formation just to counteract flying the fuck off the stage when the game botches your switch.

[@-PV-]

@Sunny Keenan SA2's rail grinding rocks, great sense of speed and spectacle with a tinge of skill to throw the player off and force them to get good at the rail grinding so it can add another layer of complexity to an otherwise already fast paced and involved game. Wish they could do more of these skill based rail grinding that carries your momentum and makes the levels even more exhilarating to revisit and master. I don't hate the automated rail grinding we've had ever since either 2004 or 2006 (not sure tbh). I digress other wise.

[@-PV-]

My point isn't all that original since other passionate SA2 fans have pointed this out more times than I could count but damn if it isnt true.

[@-PV-]

@Sunny Keenan Yeah I know you weren't, I was just sort of pointing out the obvious haha. Have yourself a good day. (I also have a friend who likes Final Rush a lot so that's cool to hear from ya.)

[@alfiehicks1]

@@-PV- I love how tactile the rail grinding is in SA2, and that's something that was lost in every subsequent game to have rail grinding. Sparks fly off, there's a constant grinding sound effect, and - most importantly - the soap shoes really _feel_ like they're built for grinding on rails. It's like that little groove in the bottom of the shoe really latches on to the rail, and it fits perfectly. In the games that come after, Sonic's wearing his regular, flat-soled shoes, and that doesn't give me the same feeling of tactility. The regular shoes just look wrong. There's no grinding sound, there's no sparks - it just feels like Sonic is sliding along the rail, not grinding. The shoes don't seem like they should allow him to do it. I feel like the soap shoes (technically called the Hi-Speed Shoes) should have been a permanent change to Sonic's character design if they wanted to keep rail grinding as a mechanic.

[@AAhmou]

I dare to say Rail Grinding had arguably always always a downfall in sonic gameplay (The most joy you may get from their mere existence is skipping them if possible)... Sonic heroes was the worst iteration though considering how unpredictably unwieldy it is (feel free to blame the broken physics) and prone to throw your team in the abyss, also they're at times badly designed (sideways glance at rail canyon).

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

41:20 Lsmark telling Cybershell to shut up despite the fact he has interrupted Cybershell (which he has done while Cybershell is making a point to proposely derail his agruement) an innumerable amount of times before hand and into the future to the point that Cybershell can't even go 2 sentences without being interrupted.

[@mared7305]

Isn't this you _assuming_ that this was deliberate attitude coming from Mark? "Purposely derail"?

[@Wiyt]

When Cybershell said “we got the knuckles raps dude” I was crying this is amazing LMAOOO

[@Goobenvy]

It hit me halfway through watching this that both are these guys are grown adults who are responsible for the future of the planet.

[@Cybershell13]

Well I'm a 30 year old boomer but Mark is still a kid so there's still hope for him to stop caring about Sonic one day maybe

[@autumnoraki]

okay but the debate is important don't act like it isn't

[@mindlessyoutubeuser6435]

Yes this is why they are debating the most important debate in the history of debates

[@iregretsomeofmypreviouscom3284]

@Vantactician it doesn't matter Now what happens

[@brenisis2772]

@@iregretsomeofmypreviouscom3284 I will never give up the fight

[@crazyduplicate]

13:50 is when the debate starts, for those who don't wanna waste their time watching them struggle with the stream not working.

[@Artur-xd6ve]

Thanks!

[@SgtSega]

Tails had some of the best character development from SA1 to SA2. In SA1 it felt like he was starting out. In SA2 he was piloting a mech to fight Robotnik's. In Sa1, he was becoming his own hero. In SA2, he was avenging his best friend's supposed death and becoming Sonic's temporary replacement. He is also on par with Robotnik's intelligence. Tails is so much cooler in SA2, but that journey started in SA1. It is not a rehash.

[@BluetheFortune2006]

1:23:47 The time where Mark dropped a C-Bomb.

[@theminecraft2516]

That’s a curse word?

[@ExplodingDuckBrigade]

@@theminecraft2516 in America it is

[@eduardovargas3476]

I got a babybel cheese wheel ad when I clicked the timestamp.

[@arrowsharpstone3689]

Ho-ly fu-ck 😆

[@foursidekm]

​@@theminecraft2516isn't it like the worst one?

[@OmegaSon]

Can’t remember if I already commented on this video but, Mark is instantly lost all credibility as soon as he started his argument with just “SA2 bad” lol

[@mared7305]

He's clearly not being objective when says (stuff like) that😂 Come on man

[@KonkeyDong616]

Laughing Stock Mark Edit: I'm not justin y

[@xraiderblack1850]

Justin Y?! What are you doing here?

[@LupinticDream]

"I found you, faker!"

[@gameer1010]

@@LupinticDream "Faker? I think you're the fake Justin Y around here."

[@justcallmekai1554]

@@gameer1010 "You're comparing yourself to me? HA!"

[@brenisis2772]

@@justcallmekai1554 you’re not even good enough to be my fake

[@goblinmcgameface]

jesus christ this is definitely a comment section it feels like a bunch of landmines have been placed everywhere my god

[@NathanG238]

Toxic as hell

[@Meleeman69]

@@NathanG238 everyone?

[@goblinmcgameface]

@@NathanG238 Reading through the comments genuinely hurts. Why am I doing this to myself haha?

[@NathanG238]

@@goblinmcgameface idk just don’t do it for to long

[@NathanG238]

@@Meleeman69 most people yea, but not all

[@kevingreene4641]

take a shot everytime mark says "you're crying", you'll be dead in 3 minutes

[@ryworze3190]

weezer

[@Helicopter7]

weezer

[@Cloverlee19]

weezer

[@kevingreene4641]

i can't stop partying partying

[@Cloverlee19]

@@kevingreene4641 rivers should just stop partying

[@robxsteed]

SA2 has higher highs and lower lows. Heroes is consistently just okay. SA2 is definitely more memorable and iconic.. also Chao Garden. P.S. It's cool hearing cybershell talk at 2x speed

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

I disagree, Heroes has a ton of lows. Especially on your first playthrough.

[@robxsteed]

@@Sydney_Angelyt Depends on when your first play-through was. I was 9, the game was new, and I wasn't complaining. Looking at it now but more critically, I really think it's just meh. At least the Team Sonic play-through is. The Team Chaotix play-through is a terribly low low though.

[@Sydney_Angelyt]

@@robxsteed i played via emulator using an XONE controller. I will say I enjoyed Shadow (2005)’s gameplay though.

[@DiagonalTanooki]

@@Sydney_Angelyt omg is that ethan from ethan

[@TheMastermind729]

No, héroes has lower lows.

[@PepsiMan666]

Sa2 chads win again

[@thankfullydaniel4212]

oh no no no heroesbros we got too cocky

[@mediamuncher6982]

Both

[@milicatrajkovic7740]

nope

[@davis.9968]

Poggers

[@milicatrajkovic7740]

@@davis.9968 nope

[@Asteroidpine]

I got chills because cybershell just broke out into how he talks in his videos.

[@RoachOverlord]

Cybershell is arguing about Sonic with a guy who literally was not alive when the Dreamcast came out

[@-PV-]

True, as much as you research and research about stuff before your time, I don't think you could ever quite have the knowledge as those who were of that time and got to experience that stuff + did research about the stuff they grew up with, it's not impossible for that person who was born way after the time of such old things to present good points and arguments about said old thing, but it can never be as detailed, articulated and knowledgble as the person who did grow up with said things and has done their homework on the subject. It is quite honorable of Cybershell as a Sonic Fan to want to have this 2 hour debate with someone who is still pretty much a child when compared to him, seems like to Cybershell there isn't a lot of exceptions for when he wants to discuss things with someone who is fairly knowlegble on Sonic themselves (unless it's some who is pre pubescent and such, he isn't a charity lol).

[@ElectrikStatik900]

goddamn Cybershell DESTROYED LS Mark holy crap

[@user-mh5nx5to2t]

Cybershell FTW

[@SpeedySteedyYT]

Debates are always entertaining Also, some friendships were ruined during the making of this video

[@NoviceDweeb]

I'm not even 20 minutes in and Cybershell won. Mark opened with such vitriolic bias that I don't even need to hear anything else from him. He's not even gonna listen to the opposition or even respond in a civil manner. An Arin Hanson level of ignoramus. Sonic Heroes was doomed from the start, as SA2 is just objectively better. Heroes has such a vast amount of tiny flaws that it feels like trying to watch an M-Rated movie on TV; random shit missing or got bludgeoned when being brought to a new format. Heroes has a good game buried within, but the inconsistent quality holds it back. SA2 (Dreamcast, which is an important distinction) has far better polish, more tolerable low points, and great side content with the Chao Garden. The only part that I can definitely say is superior in Heroes is the cutscenes, but that isn't enough to make the game better as a whole. Fuck I only meant to write that first bit. I could write an entire essay on this shit.

[@NoviceDweeb]

Genuinely lost a lot of respect for LS Mark today.

[@NoviceDweeb]

Just wanted to leave a quick update saying that I'm further in now and my prediction was 100% correct.

[@andrewkos5560]

Mark's generally never been good at arguing anything, but this really is another level. Having preferences is 100% fine, but actually owing up to the flaws in something you love is important in actually accepting that you love it. The fact that his whole argument is "SA2 sucks lmao" and he barely defended Heroes when challenged really does speak for itself.

[@sonicdoesntworkin3d256]

Ooo I know who arin hanson is i watch him every day and i watch all his videos

[@Sonicfan889]

I have not played heros in a while. I i played SA2 recently, and its pretty mediocre. The weakest part of the game is the plot. To tell you why the plot is bad i would have my summary i wrote on it recently after finishing the game. Idk if you would want to read that, its pretty long. The story is a 2/10. But then i have a issue with the treasure hunting. And the treasure hunting is annoying to talk about as its really subjective. But i personally dislike cryptic hints such as "sonic under a shadow" (actual hint). They were always a nuisance in sa1 but there more of a nuisance here. Sure its more treasure hunting then the first game. But it being more of a treasure hunter is why i don't like it. Some people like finding cryptic things in the level, the clues, and such. Its really hard to talk about it in a objective manner. The only thing i can definitely say in a objective manner is that on some level the radar system of SA1 is better. This is the case for the first two level as both Knuckles and Rouge. But god i hate it. If your wondering i would give the game as a whole a 5/10 MAYBE 6/10. Thats generous.

[@MrGuy__]

mark: you're interrupting me!!!!!!! also mark: *interrupts cybershell constantly* tbf though they both interrupt each other quite a lot

[@ShuichiMinamino777]

Ls mark really Tried to drive that knuckles point in hard lol. Knuckles priority is the safety of the master emerald, not to defeat eggman. Ofc he’s gonna come back and help his friends after he secures it. You can argue he trusted sonic and tails to figure it out, while he secured the pieces that flew out, since we don’t get the dialogue after the disagreement. They had to eventually agree somehow to get to the conclusion they ended up at.

[@Squishito]

Seriously, Mark's entire argument there was literally insane and made no sense, he clearly doesn't remember how the story went at all. Knuckles got the Master Emerald back, went back inside the colony to figure out what to do next, then Sonic teleported right next to him and asked him to go help Tails and Amy while he stopped the cannon, so he goes and gets there in the final story. Then the Cannons Core thing happened. That all happened consecutively. So there was no plot holes, Knuckles acted as normal as ever and had completely in character reasons to do everything so Mark's arguments there made zero sense. Knuckles the whole game was motivated by the Master Emerald, which is fine. All this opposing Heroes, where the Master Emerald and his island are never mentioned at the beginning, he just is there with them and helps with zero complaints and ditches his responsibility for literally no reason just so the game can have Knuckles there. Heroes started this shitty trend where Knuckles gets reduced to being Sonic's stupid buddy that hangs off of him like Tails and has nothing else going for him, he never recovers after Heroes does this to him, he's _still_ suffering from this in the games today! SA2 is the last time Knuckles is actually important and respected as his own character. And the Master Emerald shrinking thing that Mark was straw clutching so hard wasn't even a plot hole, how the fuck is Knuckles supposed to cart the massive ass Master Emerald around in those cutscenes after he gets it back? For cinematic purposes they have it shrink, but it isn't even a plot hole that it shrinks! They shove the emeralds into mallet space to store them in every game, so this is not unusual considering. Also, maybe the Master Emerald has the ability to shrink itself down for easier transportation, it's not that strange that it has some weird powers. So fucking bizarre that he was so dedicated to thinking that was a plot hole when it wasn't and is the nitpickiest thing imaginable to harp on about, proving he had no other valid criticisms.

[@ShuichiMinamino777]

@@Squishito Jeez, very well said man. You literally reduced the only decent argument Mark could possible make to “how did the emerald shrink” which as you said is so weak. The master emerald is fantasy, as you said, it has weird powers. It’s from a video game, they do stuff like this all the time. What did he expect ? For knuckles to be shown carrying the damn thing every cutscene lol. Having the ability to shrink isnt some sort of far off anomaly that makes no sense. It’s something that could easily be believable. Weak argument all in all. My only gripe is that Cybershell didn’t kill him on this terrible point he tried to push so far.

[@cringe1488]

@@Squishito well I guess you could say Knuckle becoming all buddy buddy with sonic is like character development, but that would sound too generous

[@Squishito]

@@cringe1488 I do actually like how as the games go on from 3 all the way to Heroes, Knuckles seems to open up more to the others and makes friends with them, where he didn't seem to fully trust them before, same going for Sonic. I'll give Heroes a positive, at the end of the game when Sonic genuinely thanks Knuckles and he's all shocked, that scene is great and pretty adorable. I like it for the same reasons I like SA2 for having the two scenes where it's the first time Sonic has ever asked Tails and Knuckles to do something for him, it's cool that they trust each other more and rely on each other in desperate times. It's just that Knuckles is... Too friendly in Heroes. He doesn't even seem to have his own motivations, he just is there and is fine with it. He completely ditches his emerald for no reason, they could have had Metal Sonic steal the Master Emerald or something to motivate him to tag along but nah, they just didn't. I don't mind Sonic and Knuckles being friends, but I don't like the side effect of Knuckles having no identity and never getting the respect the others do. Look at Knuckles in all the games after Heroes, he's been completely sidelined for others like Shadow and Silver, most of the time he may as well not even be there. In the Adventure games he had his own identity, his own goals, he wasn't just one of Sonic's many lackeys but he was his own cool character who had his own rival in Rouge. Heroes changed that status quo pretty much permanently, and I can't forgive that. But yeah, at least it kind of progresses his development at least.

[@cringe1488]

@@Squishito perhaps he shrunk the master emerald? Unless that would be too convenient, tbh I don't really know how that whole shrinking ordeal works

[@wesshiflet2214]

Damn I can’t believe LS Mark said “you have to ride the snowboard in Metal Harbor” like it was a bad thing

[@Gonkers20XX]

The Chad 30 year old Sonic Veteran Vs. The Virgin Zoomer

[@BananaMana69]

I played Sonic Heroes when I was like 7 and knew it was shit.

[@MysticClaws100]

Mark making the argument that the songs from Sonic Heroes are more memorable when the only argument for that is they play far more often because you have to play the stages 4 times and the stages are longer than the stages in SA2. Each stage in SA2 has its own song. Even stages which share the same level design and assets like Final Rush/Final Chase or Death Chamber/Egg Quarters have different songs. Of course the soundtrack as a whole isn't going to be as "memorable" when there's like 40 stage themes compared to 20. Additionally, each character has their own musical theme/genre making the music far more diverse

[@robotnipper]

gonna rewatch this and timestamp all the heated moments: 25:20 28:23 32:18 33:05 36:33 39:18 41:01 41:33 46:55 48:15 50:05 (good one) 1:12:57 1:15:40 1:17:42 1:22:14 1:23:28 1:23:23 (good one) 1:25:22 1:29:20 1:30:59 1:32:11 (the best one) 1:52:20 1:59:57 2:01:00 2:04:04 2:08:15 2:09:37 2:12:30 2:32:07 2:43:10 honorable mentions 51:50 56:10 1:14:10 1:21:01 1:29:03 1:36:27 (for cybershell 2:05:39) 1:38:14 (desktop leak) 1:48:30 1:54:39 (mark 'wins' an argument) 2:20:14 2:44:35 (mom and dad please stop fighting 🙁)

[@theminecraft2516]

Mark won other arguments like how SA2 is poorly paced and how Heroes sold better and had a bigger impact on the franchise

[@Squishito]

@@theminecraft2516 His argument for why SA2 was "poorly paced" was that he didn't like the treasure hunting levels. That was it. That's not a fucking good argument at all. Also.... Sales!? Games selling well doesn't denote their fucking quality, by that logic Sonic 06 is great because it technically sold well! Heroes also _did_ make a bigger impact... A bigger negative impact! Heroes started the trend of Amy being some psycho with no other personality, Heroes made Knuckles into a pointless tag along with no individuality, Heroes absolutely ruined Shadow and started that fucking mess, Heroes made Tails back into a little baby, Heroes confused the shit out of the series tone etc. etc. Heroes put Sonic into a confused mess of a state, you can clearly see that because they followed it up with Shadow the Hedgehog of all things. The tone was all over the place and they had no idea what they were doing anymore, they marketed to Nintendo kids now they were marketing to GTA fans... Then 06 happened. Heroes was the beginning of the end, they had it together with the Adventure games but after the Dreamcast sank and they went 3rd party they completely panicked and lost the ball. Mark completely sank in this argument, hell it isn't even an argument.

[@theminecraft2516]

@@Squishito You can not defend Death Chamber, that stage is so boring and breaks the pace so hard.

[@Squishito]

@@theminecraft2516 There is literally maps on the walls all over the level to tell you where you are and where to go, it's color coded like a preschool puzzle!! The level is shaped like a triangle and you move to the next rooms by running through hallways, it's as linear as it gets my man! It's intimidating at first glance, but it's really not that bad once you realize how small it is. I used to hate it too but only because I didn't give it a proper chance. You literally just run around until it beeps if you don't know the level, it's actually incredibly simple! You can use hints and if you want to reset the remaining emerald locations without losing ones you've already got, lose a life. The point of all of SA2's levels are that you replay them and get better and better ranks, that's why they offer assistance like that. Purposely dying to reset emeralds loses your points and using hints does the same, it affects rank. You can basically cheat the levels and the only punishment is you get an E rank, the game is supposed to be replayed. I mean fuck it, did you know that the level Security Hall has a pointless timer? Even if you run out of time, when you respawn you keep your emeralds! You can just keep playing until you get them all! It's about the rank only. Even the classic Sonic games use this methodology, you replay it and get better and better, you can't just play SA2 levels once and never again, of course you wont get anything out of it! Even the Chao Garden is designed to encourage you to replay levels, it's like a sneaky way for the devs to force you to learn the game better by coaxing you with cute A-life gameplay. Once you understand more about SA2, you come to appreciate it more. It's not just a surface level game.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@theminecraft2516agree

[@liomanwhy]

People keep defending Mark by saying "it was a joke" or "he didn't take it seriously". I see where they're coming from, but even if it's a joke, it still sucks ass. Mark is annoying here even if you don't take him seriously. That's kinda sad, because in his videos he seems like a chill and rational guy. At least I'm not the only one who thinks so, and Mark lost anyway, so everything's good I guess. Still very annoying tho.

[@wesshiflet2214]

The joke just totally backfired lol

[@luke6784]

It was honestly embarrassing to watch mark in this debate. Not only did he try to counter most of cybershell's legitimate criticisms of heroes as "well I had fun", he had moments such as asking for a source for heroes being a modified SA2 engine which is just a fact (that he probably should have been aware of). I'm not saying that SA2 is perfect, but it's just silly to even try to debate with your main argument being "I had fun playing heroes so the criticisms don't count." Add that to his constant insults of SA2 and cybershell himself and the disingenuous comments such as "I want the tornado jump to come back" and it's just so painful to hear him speak. He didn't come here to debate at all apparently.

[@shinkaou]

Cybershell is the sonic master. Mark lost as soon as he got in the call

[@johnsmithsbasement]

Pretty sure this was more entertaining than any Destiny debate I've seen thus far

[@SgtSega]

Omega was a cheap knock off of E-102. That was intentional. He's watered down to being a generic evil robot because it was easier for kids to understand. E-102 was a really deep character. They pulled it out their butts the same way they brought Shadow back as a "clone". They also went on to turn Shadow into a stereotype that followed him throughout the rest of the series. The reason people call Shadow "Edgy the Hedgy" is because of the modern interpretation of him. The real Shadow died in SA2 just like the real E-102 died in SA1. Same goes for Eggman. The real Eggman was in the Adventure games. The rest of the series felt like cheap knock offs. Even his robots and sidekicks in later games were dumb. They stripped away everything that made the series cool and it all started with Sonic Heroes. As long as they aimed it at a new generation and ignored everything that came before and called the Adventure series "outdated", they could get away with it. That is exactly what Sonic Team did. Sonic died with Sonic Adventure 2. That was his last truly good game. The kids never questioned it because they had nothing to compare it to back then. To them, this reboot was made just for them and didn't challenge them to play previous games for context. While Sonic Adventure 2 was a celebration of the series beginning to end especially when you consider it as an anniversary title. We got closure for characters. We got a satisfying ending. It was on Sega's last console to boot. Nothing will ever top that because they will never try anything like it again. Sonic Team is too casual and laid back now. They release terrible unfinished games. They don't give a crap about music or story anymore. And the kids will never question it. To them, modern Sonic and endless boosting is as good as it will ever get, and that's just sad.

[@InkRoller18]

The real shadow was revived in 06 and died immediately after.

[@DCT-tt8ib]

I get that it’s a bit and not meant to be taken seriously, but holy shit I cannot stand Mark in this debate. He literally has no other defense other than whataboutisms and bashing SA2 and its fans. So many of his arguments contradict other arguments he makes during the debate and even arguments he’s made in his own videos. Everything that Mark accuses Cybershell of doing (Namely taking over his opponent and using other games to clear up plotholes) he does tenfold. And whereas Cybershell can admit SA2 has flaws, Mark will do everything in his power to either defend Heroes’ flaws or push them under the rug and start immediately attacking SA2 for a sometimes unrelated reason.

[@daseal1479]

Mark: “Heroes has the better story because it accomplished what it set out to do.” Also Mark: “Story in a Sonic game doesn’t matter.” That justification gave me an aneurism...

[@cypher838]

That logic is so dumb That's like saying baby food does what it sets out to do and is edible yes, but is it good? Not really. I would rather have an above average flambè than a Than gourmet baby food.

[@eon2487]

God, mark is the WORST at constructing an argument lmao

[@Jackelbeaver]

Sonic Adventure 2 has Angel Island in it. The desert is Sandopolis Zone. Eggman made a ghost pyramid into a base again. You never see Angel Island rise after Super Sonic Story in SA1, and the desert has echidna ruins in SA2, meaning it’s old echidna territory. Also, in SA2 I thought the eclipse cannon was a military weapon GUN had Dr. Gerald Robotnik build for them and it got shuttered because of what happened with Shadow and Maria. The ARK crashing into Earth seems like a secret thing Gerald put in before his execution. All it means is it’s programmed to crash into earth. If the space station is built to fly around the planet to fire upon an enemy nation as GUN desires, why wouldn’t it be able to fly straight at the planet with a control lock override? It isn’t that complicated once you realize the space station would have the functionality required to make it do that as a hidden bit of code.

[@DogmenDogmen]

Echidna civilization spread past Angel Island, Angel island is just one of the places they were. Regardless of what happens in SA1, Angel Island is definitely grounded during SA2 because it's the Master Emerald that allows Angel Island to float, and the Master Emerald isn't at the altar when we first see it in SA2. The Eclipse Cannon was created by Gerald in order to destroy stars for some unspecified but peaceful purpose, which was semi-retconned to be the Black Comet, specifically. It's probably more interesting narratively if Gerald was an scientist from Russia or Germany which was coerced into working on WMDs like the US did in real life, but this is fanon. In lore Gerald is shown to have never created anything with a destructive intent until he lost Maria, he's basically Kintobor with how pacifistic and altruistic he was. He was also in a position where he was able to refuse creating Project Shadow, as he did initially, and the ARK itself is never stated to have been a government project, only Gerald's. Also worth noting that GUN and the United Federation's government are seperate entities. GUN sieged it, ostensibly to obtain Project Shadow (which was commisioned by the United Federation to discover immortality) but it can be presumed that they were at least aware of the destructive power of the Eclipse Cannon. After going insane, Gerald reprogrammed the Eclipse Cannon in order to collide the ARK with Earth and kill everyone when the emeralds were collected and reprogrammed Shadow to make this happen.

[@DreamManmns]

1:30:00 Knuckles and rouge's first cutscene is literally her trying to steal the fucking master emerald. The answer is literally right there if you need the answer but they aren't constantly bringing it up because 1. The whole idea of restoring angel island was done to hell and back in 3&K and SA1. and 2. Restoring angel island isn't relevant to knuckle's arc throughout the story if becoming more comfortable with the world around him and those in it.

[@shonenbois]

Straight Facts

[@S41tyPr3tz31]

Quick amendment to this: The story recap of Wild Canyon, Knuckles says the Emerald was stolen and that he tracked the thief the whole time. The cutscene we see is Knuckles finally catching up to Rouge before Eggman intervenes.

[@DreamManmns]

@@S41tyPr3tz31 that's what I meant I just didn't word it correctly and don't like editing stuff, thanks!

[@S41tyPr3tz31]

@@DreamManmns That's fair!

[@ttttoasty]

50:50 "HE TURNS INTO AN UGLY T REX FUCKING TOY" I'm fucking dying😭

[@Gna-rn7zx]

That part was so cathartic

[@wesshiflet2214]

1:31:54 "Tails flies with Knuckles in the back and says 'LONG TIME NO SEE,' very clearly implying that the three were on their separate ways." Legendary

[@brickadventures]

2:53:10 I died when he said “Your game doesn’t have the chao garden you lose bye-bye”😂

[@FlutterForever83]

same though

[@michaelehmsfilms6468]

Mark: “STOP DODGING MY QUESTIONS, CYBER!” Also Mark whenever a criticism is brought up: “Well that doesn’t matter to ME so it’s fine.”

[@francozabala7059]

If cybershell can have good points on why sonic 4 sucks then you know damn well hes gonna win this debate