Live Sound Mixing Strategy

[@curtisjudd]

11 years old, but just as relevant and useful today. Thanks for sharing your mix strategy.

[@DaveRat]

Agreed, the technique ahs been extremely useful over the years. Thank you!

[@danny-qs1lv]

@@DaveRat this is my go to refresher vid, cheers

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@amstine7073]

This is one of the best video tutorials I’ve ever seen!!!! Thank you very much for taking the time to make this video!!! Fantastic!!😊

[@DaveRat]

Wonderful and thank you

[@debrisoliveira]

This is absolutely amazing!

[@DaveRat]

I agree it changed my world of mixing sound and I figured it out when I was mixing 1200 to 2000 capacity venues and worked my way up to mixing some of the largest bands and largest shows in the world using that method

[@gainstage4497]

Incredibly helpful and well explained

[@DaveRat]

👍👍👍

[@stephendverner]

Brilliantly explained.

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@StoryofToday]

This is GOLD. Thank you!

[@DaveRat]

👍🔧👍

[@fredbissnette3104]

Dave is a fucking genius

[@DaveRat]

I'm just curious

[@SarahJonestoo]

Gold. Pure gold!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Sarah!

[@ivansindicic5960]

Very cool video and easy to follow.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@zangzang1268]

Great stuff Dave.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@HEC9]

Masterclass!!

[@yohoshua]

I've watched this a few times over, and I'm always learning something new. What I learned this time around: There's a freakin' giraffe on the wall.

[@christiaanbezuidenhout6984]

Lol, with a plug on his ass

[@djevlhelvete]

Well, god damn I noticed that too this time around too!

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@JamesClarke.yt.]

@@DaveRat what do you mean by guitar right, guitar left and such?

[@georgelincoln5041]

Some concepts in sound just never change and some people just have the ability to explain it very clearly. Nice video Dave.

[@bevrek]

DCA'S on the input-chanels and the groups, nice. I shall try it today.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@BadChizzle]

Very Cool! Thanks!!

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@DaveRat]

@flipflopsrawesome1 Each channel has assignment buttons that allow you to route that channel to the sub group of choice or multiples of groups or multiple channels to any group. Pretty much the same as a digital board except they are mechanical buttons.

[@DaveRat]

I use channel compression to "fix" the sound of each instrument when necessary. Maybe comps on the vocal channels, bass DI or a kyboard that jumps around in volume. I use the group comps to hold the mix together and give me control over the overall dynamics.

[@DaveRat]

I try & pan as much as possible. I will do a video soon on what I believe to be one of the fundamental concepts of live reinforcement. "Nowhere in nature does the same sound come from more than one place" yet in live audio we do it all the time. This is an unnatural event and causes a myriad of issues like comb-filtering, power alley, coverage issues. It also as well as allows us numerous ways to control sound like creating carioid coverage, line array steering etc. Understanding this is useful

[@thetrainthetrain]

this is the fucking best idea I have ever heard ... thanks dude

[@DaveRat]

@brainz11203 It really depends on the singer. If they are shouters then higher ratios are good, if they sing even volume or sing far from the mic, then less compression is good.

[@DaveRat]

@danielobrien8 Not yet, but I try to keep my channel counts as low as possible. One exception is when I parallel drum gate, will try and get a video done on that subject as it works really well.

[@DaveRat]

@scottbradford06 I use a moderate speed attack and release. But since I do not use a lot of compression, it is pretty forgiving. You may need to do some digging but I have posted pictures of my front of house racks on my blog, and you can see my actual setups and settings for Peppers and Blink 182 tours.

[@DaveRat]

I set it so that at normal playing levels everything is compressing two or three db. Then when they sing loud, play hard or use a pedal that boosts the level. the groups compress more. Conversely, if they sing softer or play lower, they come out of compression.

[@JJramirez_]

awesome

[@DaveRat]

👍🔧👍

[@dag451]

Amazing! Thanks Dave! The tip for using DCA faders to balance out compression across the mix is incredible. Question: where are you implementing effects send/returns in this system? Do you deal with all of that on a completely different set of subgroups/DCA, or route the corresponding effects into the above subgroups?

[@cameronproaudio]

Dave, in regards to the Avid Venues only having linked stereo comps, that's true with the stock plugins. However there are some 3rd party Waves plugins, one I believe is a Neve emulation, that allows unlinked L and R in the stereo comp plugin. Something worth noting.

[@cameronproaudio]

I have Waves API 2500 on my SC48 which allows various linking modes for L/R.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Greg and very cool

[@roosoomak]

@www73171 Thanks for your comment, I got your point now :-)

[@waiheke109]

Wicked Sweetness

[@DaveRat]

👍🤙👍

[@christopheronald]

@www73171 great idea. ill mess with it this week. thanks for the heads up.

[@GreenfieldMN]

Excellent Dave. That really explains how you sit back during a show and nothing gets away from you. I can also see how you get away with mixing in the dark a bit easier :)

[@jeroenransijn25]

I saw a first video of you half a year ago when you were giving us a brilliant explenation why you mix with an analogue console sideways in a big venue and showing us your method. After years of mixing myself I was blown away with your natural approach, this is how I like to work as well! focus on the experience and the art of how music makes the crowd and yourself feel. It should be an experience! This video makes me smile, your method is so "simple" yet brilliant. I do a lot of jazz and acoustic music, but sometimes pop and rock. I can see this being used for any mixing situation to be honest. Thnx a million Dave!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Jereon!

[@stevenherrell6668]

You're the best dude. Thanks so much for sharing with us. Upgraded to MW12's + L Gruppen amps afew years back. Folks balked when I coulda had d&b or fulcrums. Nah, I like the rat.

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and and thank you Steven!!

[@stevenherrell6668]

@@DaveRat I noticed that using the grey preset in the Gruppens had every other mix's polarity flipped. It's very effective at isolating the wedges on stage. Is this its' intended purpose?

[@DaveRat]

There are or should be no polarity reverses in the presets. A polarity rev on every other wedge would be terrible and unusable

[@stevenherrell6668]

@@DaveRat Interesting. In isolation it is unnoticeable, I can't hear the reversal until I place two wedges in front of me, then it is extremely noticeable and incoherent. Hmmm...

[@DaveRat]

Possibly another issue but interesting. I will look into it. Maybe there is an error in the processor setup for the Labs. Can you email me at [e-mail] and will get more info and see what I can find

[@johnnatangonzalez5986]

Gracias por la traducción a español 🙏🏼

[@DaveRat]

Buenos!!!

[@christopheronald]

@brunton82 clean signal is just that. most likely just bass. dirty might be like with a slight bit of distortion or fuzz or something like that. just like on a guitar. clean channel, and distorted.

[@ciskokidd1313]

Your a mad scientist Dave but in a good way!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome, Thank you Cisco!

[@RoadJournal]

Cool!

[@xokeman]

Assuming you assign the subgroup buses to the LR bus when you pull down VCA 11 all the way no sound would be going to the LR buss as the channels are assigned the subgroups not to LR. There must be something I'm missing.

[@mike3246107]

Did anyone ever answer this question?

[@mico5003]

This is one of the gems you find no so often on KZbin! I have a friend who also draws to explain a complex setup into a more understable level. K.I.S.S.-factor as he recalls it. Keep It Simple Stupid. He is a radio mechanic also sound man occassionally in music concerts if he doesn’t himself plays music. We also assemble pedal kits. to learn about resistors, capasitors and the likes. How things made. What I am trying to say is what a channel! Thank you for sharing and I believe those knowledge can also transform to other areas as well.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you Mico!

[@ke6gwf]

Hey Dave, a video series suggestion to open up a new audience. How to apply this concept to the Behringer x32 for a typical church worship band. There are lots of videos on such subjects, but none from someone like you. And yes, I am having to figure it out currently, finally making the switch from A&H 48 channel analog to digital, so I actually have the ability to implement something like this, but I am also having to learn the console itself at the same time lol And you probably don't feel like learning a new low end digital console between all your other projects, but it's an idea lol

[@jungleb]

GOLD GOLD GOLD

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@soundhead18]

Hey Dave, I'm a student at the New England School of Communications for Live Sound Engineering. Thanks for the tips! What kind of console do you use for your shows? or what do you prefer? ~Dan

[@nitrolx]

Dave, another question if you don't mind. . You say you assign a pre-group (therefore pre-compressor) VCA, and post-group/post-compressor VCA.Do you also assign various elements to VCAs like the whole kit, the guitars, the vocals, the fx returns etc to VCAs? And if so, when you're mixing the show,are you mainly riding VCAs, or the group masters, or individual chanels? They way you sub group everything for group-based compression, is there any need to also use the VCAs to mix with? Thanks again!

[@48snapper]

A superb video about a terrific technique. I have learned so much. Many thanks Dave.

[@DaveRat]

Thank you!

[@shiproop]

That’s very kind of you Dave, I am not educated in sound engineering, but working on cruise ships gave me chance to work on sound desk and also realise there is so much to learn. I am so glad I bumped into your 10mins video, it has been very helpful.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@lucianogm]

I ve watched this lot of times, and always learn something. Dave how do you insert subs on aux in this array? You make yours sends for the subgroups? One last question, i have only one reverb so i send different sources from the groups to the mains (everything is a tradeoff in audio!) Maybe you can recomend me to do it in other way?

[@kenoir]

Although I'm not anywhere near the level where u guys were, but as a person who have no chance to be trained professionally, I just couldn't keep jaws from dropping on the floor Tonnes of thanks!

[@kevinleblanc47]

I love it when LEGENDS like the rat give back, Dave has forgot more than most of us will learn...... Thanks man

[@DaveRat]

Humbled and thank you Kevin!

[@manny120473]

Thanks Dave for taking the time and effort to make this video, but better yet...some one at your level with so much experience being humble and willing to share your knowledge with us......you rock Sr. Thanks again and best wishes for you and your family.

[@DaveRat]

thank you for taking the time to write a comment that makes me happy

[@FASST54]

Thanks so very much for taking the time to share your experience. I'm now taking a step back and revisiting our board setup. I watched this video after hearing a suggestion from Drew Brashler. - Ed

[@christopheronald]

maybe its just because im not standing in front of our desk, but i cant seem to get the routing figured out in my head. we have a 48 channel apb dynasonics spectra console, which i absolutely adore. my confusion stems from how i would assign things and where i would put the comps and such. to make things easy, lets just pretend im doing vocals for this example. our board has 10 vcas, and 10 auxes, with insert points on both auxes. cant fit everything i want to type.

[@DaveRat]

@mattfender I mixed Blink 182 last European tour. I do a blog of tours and such at ratsound(dot)com/cblog and there is a bunch more info and articles and such at daverat(dot)com if you are interested

[@kevinasir76]

Hey Dave, I love this strategy. Do you include your vocals in these VCA’s or just the band inputs?

[@DaveRat]

Yes, grab everything. Anything not included will be jumpy

[@kevinasir76]

@@DaveRat Thanks Dave, I've been trying this method with a lot of success. I appreciate you sharing. I did have one more question. If you also have a Guitar VCA for example, would you also put the guitar group in the guitar VCA in addition to the All Group VCA? Hope my question makes sense.

[@DaveRat]

Hmmm, I try to create a VCA for each sound/instrument type and a group or stereo group for each sound/instrument type. Then a vca for the groups and a vca for all the channels .

[@dreammix9430]

Hey thank you Dave! I never would have thought of using pre and post compression routing but it makes perfect sense.

[@DaveRat]

🤙👍🤙

[@DaveRat]

I posted a mixing console for peppers video

[@martinmakarevits]

I turned to the dark side some 15 years ago and moved from sound desk to lighting desk. Never looked back, though I always liked being a sound engineer. Just by watching your videos and especially this one, makes me want to try again. Loving it! Thanks!

[@DaveRat]

Awesome and thank you!

[@DaveRat]

@outjet I only compress vocals individually if the a particular singer is inconsistent in volume, IE shouts then sings soft. If he/she stay fairly even, I don't use the extra comps on individual channels.

[@bobjam24]

I have currently taken over as in house sound engineer of a club which does not have the money for this sort of mix capability. All "groups" are stereo with one insert for left and right faders for each and only two of them in total! (this equals to four faders and two inserts and two direct outs)

[@DaveRat]

Thank you and rock those mixes up to make this a better sounding world to live in!

[@wetfreq]

I usually just put my amp to 11.

[@ArieGoossens]

How do you mix the different bass channels? Did you use the clean bass DI just for lows? Awesome video!

[@DaveRat]

Depends on the artist and sound of the rig, for peppers I panned bass mic to one side a bit, dirty DI to the other and used clean di to send to the subs

[@ArieGoossens]

@@DaveRatThanks so much fpr your answer. Have you never had any issues with phasing from the dirty DI and the mic? I imagine the signal going to the subs is somewhere up to the 200/250hz range?

[@VinylMitchie]

This is SOLID, F*CKING GOLD! Thanks Dave!

[@craigbowman272]

I use this approach in small and medium size venues as well.. .I modified it and adapted it to my boards capabilities ... I love and have never gone any other way!

[@RobertBardwell]

Are you compressing your vocals individually first, then re-compressing at the subgroup, or only at the subgroup?

[@flipflopsrawesome1]

I'm not sure if anyone has asked this yet. How do you route multiple channels into a subgroup on an analouge mixer? In DAW's you just click a button (so to speak) and it happens. How do you do it manually?

[@bobjam24]

Should I for example, bearing in mind I only have stereo compression (L+R) to play with , send all my mix other than vocals to 1+2 stereo group with its own compression. Then send vocals to 3+4 stereo group with seperate compression and then send that all too the mix? Or should i utilise the compression for seperate insert channels i.e vocals and so on so fourth?

[@qzwxecrv0192837465]

So to clarify this (cement more like it) on my Presonus 16.4.2 with NO VCA's, would I do the following: Route any channels to FX (if any) Set compression on all channels as stated (0 dB, 3:1 for all but vocal, +4dB vocal) Assign vocals to a subgroup Assign guitars to a sub Bass to sub metal to sub Use those subs to send FOH signal to boost as a VCA does (in theory) This should be fairly equivalent to what you stated, correct?

[@DaveRat]

Typically you don't want to double assign to VCA's & since the input fader is assigned and the effects are usually post fader, the effect are also assigned already. You can assign all the effects returns to a separate VCA to make killing the effects between the songs easier. I usually don't though and just kill drop the return faders of the effects channels. Mainly because I too often forget to bring the effects return VCA back up, but remember to bring the effects channels up for some reason

[@6sebastiancol]

@www73171 thanks Dave, by the way I hope the concert in my country (Colombia) will be awesome as usual

[@cc11studio]

I keep coming back to this video. Great stuff! Thanks for making this Dave....i'ts still appreciated a decade later.

[@DaveRat]

Super cool and thank you

[@maldo1984]

Wow, I’m blown away. This is so practical. And makes so much sense!

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@erniesoriano1425]

you are genius..you added ideas to my audiotechniques as part of my live sound experiences over the decade.thank u very much that there is a DAVE RAT in this world..very good job and keep the world updated pls sir!

[@DaveRat]

Very cool. Yes, trying all this out and comparing to see if this strategy is useful for your application is super cool.

[@ahhyeah]

I’m trying to set up this workflow where instrument groups are put into groups, those groups are compressed, then sent into one big group and compressed again or in another big group not compressed, then to the mains. I can’t seem to get a group into a group or a matrix into the mains. What am I missing? How would this workflow be done on the Allen & Heath Avantis. Thanks!

[@DaveRat]

Oh my, I wish I could assist but don't know that console. In the members zoom chats I do every other week, there are people that may know.

[@mattfeedback]

Our band just bought our first digital mixer a short while back & I was designated 'sound guy' to 'learn' it - tall order for a guitarist whose prior knowledge of EQ was bass mid & treble knobs - your videos have been a great help in improving my live audio mixing abilities Dave - thanks a million!

[@PapawCulberson]

Hire a dedicated and qualified sound person - you can't run sound well from the stage - even with a digital mixer

[@joeambly6807]

@@PapawCulberson Thanks for some useless advice

[@PapawCulberson]

You're welcome! Whatever I can do to help!

[@DaveRat]

If I am short on groups I may compress the bass channels directly or buss OH and toms to L and R. Great observation! I do pan Kick mics and snare mics. I used to run a mono group for Kick/Snare but since I started panning to a stereo kick, stereo snare and stereo bass, I went to a stereo group for those as well.

[@DaveRat]

@Dieselishot Signal is not 'sent' to a VCA, rather, a fader(s) is assigned to a VCA that acts as a remote control for the fader(s). The comps are inserted on the groups. So.... the VCA acts as a pre comp level control and the group fader acts as a post comp level control. Bringing up the VCA and down the group in effect lowers your comp thresholds without changing volume. Bringing up groups and down VCA's in effect raises the comp thresholds.

[@danielobrien8]

did a festival last week and used this method and found it work GREAT! thanks got a lot of good feedback, thanks as always- an old dog learning new tricks.

[@100chuckjones]

im finding your videos more and more useful dave. feeling like i just watched a great seminar on a really good engineer. good shit dave.good shit. keep up the good work.i like it. these vids are a gold mine of knowlege.

[@DaveRat]

Yes, it does work on digi boards, the main challenge with the Avid's is last I used one, they do not allow stereo groups with compression unless the compressors are linked, which is less than ideal but usable

[@scottbradford06]

Hey I have a question, maybe its been answered already but what attack and response setting do you use on your VCA comps? quick on both or follow the instrument type (fast on vox, slow on drums etc)? I would love to know because this has been fantastic for me to implement but that is my lingering question. Thanks you rock!

[@sydneywalker2295]

Way late but this was a helpful video. I wanted to know, and hope anyone can answer, would you still use compression on the mic channels and subgroups, or just on the subgroups themselves? Thanks!! Great video!

[@DaveRat]

Use channel compression to tame the induvidual inputs. Use subgroup compression to tame the mix as whole.

[@BrianRussTVC]

I used the sub compression strat last night at a gig with a loud 5 piece, and it was GREAT!! The vocals always shown through and I had to do very little mixing. Thank you for posting this, it just made my FOH life 100x easier.

[@teigankozina5652]

Genius concept, so simple and effective. Can understand why my live sound teacher deemed this essential viewing.

[@DaveRat]

Honored!

[@kevinbeckenham3872]

Thank you dave for your advice and inspiration

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@DaveRat]

Linked comps suck and digi board makers seem to force link by default. Newer consoles are finally starting to have unlinkable comps. Sometimes you can send channels to 2 stereo groups, and then use just the left from one stereo group and just the right from the other. It uses double the groups but will get you unlinked comps

[@jheffner1]

How would you effectivly keep main vocalist on top of the BGV's

[@theashkinsdiet]

Everything I thought I knew about mixing, out the window. Your videos make so much sense, thanks for sharing dude!

[@DaveRat]

Thank you!

[@DaveRat]

@ThaDeka "0" threshold is a level setting also called nominal. It just means that the compressors start compressing when the meters reach "0" which is about 3/4 of the way up. If I run out of groups I usually put keyboards in with toms.

[@chrismuldoon15]

I see that you are compressing your sub groups. Are you also compressing individual channels as well before sending them to the sub groups?

[@sirjohnkozar]

Absolutely Brilliant!!! I never would have thought about using the compression like that...Can't wait to try this out!!!

[@apaitiadrivationo5628]

This is mixing to another Dimension!! Too Good!!........❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@captainmeadows6307]

Dude. Killer stuff man. I can't wait to binge all your other videos.

[@DaveRat]

Awesome!!

[@DaveRat]

Will work on doing some. I have a few ideas like the doing the importance and logic behind using high pass filters and panning methods for improved clarity and coverage. Hope to have time soon. and thank you for the suggestion

[@thomasshannon2876]

Every time I listen to Dave Rat, I learn something valuable. Every. Time.

[@DaveRat]

👍

[@braynerick]

...and if you don't compress individually how do you do not to clip the channels?Low gain settings? Abrazo form Brasil!

[@harleydanger123]

Such a beautiful, thought out way of approaching the work. Thanks so much for taking the time to share.

[@DaveRat]

+harleydanger123 Thank you, I hope you try it and is beneficial. I personally am miserable mixing any other way at this point.

[@Dredge_ZA]

Hey Dave, I know this video is old but it's such a goodie. I wanted to ask, how are you incorporating the DCA/VCA's in your FOH mix? Are you mixing much on the stereo groups or mainly on the DCA's? Any insight into that would be very helpful. I personally mix a lot on DCA's and set my show up that way primarily without touching inputs as much as possible and would love to bring in more use of stereo groups. Thanks for the great info. Cheers.

[@DaveRat]

Ross van Wyk it depends on what I want to achieve. if I have 3 Guit mics, one panned L, one panned R and one panned Center that is eq'ed brighter. and push the center Guit mic, the sound of the guitar will become less stereo and brighter but not much louder as the subgroup comp will compress more. if I push them DCA or VCA, all 3 Guit mics will get not much louder, it will maintain tone and panning but become more compressed and fatter sounding. if I push the subgroup (post fader) fader, the guitar will get louder buy not fatter, and I can really get lots of fun volume. so I chose the control that gives me the desired result

[@SuperPhonograph]

Excellent stuff.

[@royjevans]

Dave, I've been using your technique when mixing pub bands and the difference it makes is noticeable. I've had many comments on how the vocals were clear when compared to your average muddy pub mix. One question I have is what would be the difference if you set the Vox compression to around zero, but the other instruments to something around -5 or 6. Wouldn't this provide some more headroom on a digital console? (I use an Allen and Heath Qu16 and QuPac).

[@DaveRat]

Definitely want to keep a digital console well below clip. So yes, reducing gains, labels and thresholds universally on a Digi board to insure a clean signal is good. Then add makeup gain after the console if needed

[@royjevans]

@@DaveRat Thanks for confirming this.

[@SOUNDMANDAVED]

correct me if I'm wrong maybe I didn't pay attention. You talk about vca 10 being all inputs (pre comp) and vca 11 all groups which are compressed. You then say using more of vca 10 and less of 11 gives you a more compressed sound and more of 11 and less of 10 gives you less compressed sound. Isn't it the other way around as you're introducing less compression with vca 10 and more with vca 11?

[@danielobrien8]

do you ever return a comp to an open channel? upwards compression?

[@xwification]

It sounds like you might mix stereo. Is this true? If so, what for? I've been wrestling with the stereo question for years and have always answered it by the coverage point of view, which mostly dictates a mono mix. Stereo is fun and all, but the percentage of the audience that would appreciate it in most venues would be less than 1/3 and the rest would suffer. I would think that larger venues in which a man of your caliber finds himself would demand a mono mix. Thoughts?

[@DaveRat]

@roosoomak Linking comps on a stereo group causes two main issues. 1) if you have two guitars panned somewhat left and right, when one guitar gets louder it causes the other to be turned down, the opposite of what we would want. 2) with a single stereo guitar any volume differential between the sides causes a gain reduction on both sides which sounds mono-ish keeping the stereo image but reducing the effect of the sound pulling to one side or the other, which sound more stereo.