Liz Coleman's call to reinvent liberal arts education

[@Manny123-y3j]

I'm in my undergrad, and it's amazing how much the info in one class can apply to another, whether it be Organic Chemistry to Microbiology, Psychology to Developmental Biology, Ancient Eastern History with a Composition Class, or Linguistics with Anthropology. No knowledge is junk knowledge. We desperately need to reform our education in this country.

[@silverfang0657]

I knew TED first from Sir Ken Robinson's speech, and loved it. Then I got here. I watched this the first time and agreed with most of the comments that her way of presenting the speech discredited what she tried to address. But I had to do a paper on liberal education, so I decided to watch it the second time. I realized how deep her message actually was, despite of her tone. Now both her and SKR's talks will be on my work cited page

[@flyhead2]

I started off a skeptic, but she won me over. Great speach.

[@Can101276]

This woman is brilliant, and echoes my every concern when it comes to the problems with specialized education. This will always lead to a dependance on the system and lead us far away from freedom and independance. Bravo, one of the best Ted talks ever!!

[@Waranoa]

The way she speaks, her form is perfect.

[@Valelacerte]

Don't get me wrong, yiddishesque, I completely agree with many points, including her take on education being more and more detail on less and less, there was just something about her delivery that made it hard for me to remain focussed, and I'm not some impatient ADHD sugar junkie.

[@Valelacerte]

Very interesting, if a little too abstract and dense at times; it felt more like the reading of a thesis than actually talking to people.

[@samandfelixfolife]

I kept an open mind when watching this speech. Seven years later, I can connect some similarities between her concerns and today's liberal arts system.

[@ericpao81]

beautifully put . Ill be bringing this vid to my liberal arts adviser.

[@JosuVaquerizo]

and by the way, i am not making an attack on her, I think he flaw was to write it all down as if it was a book and then reading it to an audience. It is TEDTalks, not TEDreadings. I have no intention of discrediting anything she sais, I am just giving feedback. Saying that someone's delivery is obtrusive to the message does not in any way imply that there is a problem with the message. Get it straight techstyle.

[@Slabbers]

Ah yes, sorry, I didn't read the rest of the comments: Poe's law indeed still holds! Excellent channel by the way, there's loads of lovely stuff I've not seen on there. From the music selections, it looks like we have a lot in common. I don't have a favourite genre, though I have avoided pursuing too much pre-20th century classical music so far; not 'cos I don't like it, but I already spend far too much time collecting and learning about music from the last century.

[@wikicross]

Very elegant and beautiful discourse. There some things though, which I simply cannot get my head around. At 3:31 she says: "As one moves up the ladder, values other than technical competence are viewed with increasing suspicion. Questions such as "what kind of a world are we making?", "what kind of a world should we be making?", "what kind of a world can we be making?" are treated with more and more skepticism and are moved of the table. In so doing, the guardians of secular democracy,

[@permacultureli]

wonderful. I was an oberlin student in the 80s. I was a student reading far beyond my curriculum os study, and ended up finding my self education much more transcedant, an extensive, than what my liberal arts education implied. I felt the mere utilitarian character of the general perspective.

[@Spitfireseven]

This discourse is delightfully illuminated and pertinent in every cup of it's serving. What more could a listener wish for in terms of a speaker that is aware of now, here, time in it's procession and to nail the inadequacies of a fabric of our national beliefs and ethics that is unraveling unperceivably until these words have flowed forth.

[@panpiper]

These two philosophies are not necessarily at odds. To be sure, if one is making money by speculating or by petitioning the government for special favors, you likely are at odds. But if you are making money by providing a superior product of service than anyone else, you are in fact doing the most good.

[@Spenkster]

people saying that they are bored by her talk.. are saying more about themselves then about her. I believe there is room for improvement in her presentation (intonation for example) sure.. but the message is quite clear to me. And it sure rocks if you ask me! I think change in thinking is in order when teaching students because the liveless reductionism in classrooms teached today , is not from this time.. certainly when you consider students suffering from "short-term attention syndrome".

[@sudiin]

She sums up almost everything that needs to be sorted out in the Americas! Go go USA, you can do it!

[@sixpackspy]

nice little display, but its kind of hard to understand what she means. i'm pretty sure her idea could have been summed up in a couple sentences.

[@bluebeard2]

I'd prefer to live under a minimalist government. One that doesn't regulate simply to look busy, or to appear to be solving a problem. One that sees its main job as to provide a basic legal system, and that's it.

[@favorunmerited]

I could not give this a thumbs up or down. There is a lot to think about here, and I have a feeling I agree with most of her observations and conclusions, but the way she put together and presented her thoughts left me wondering at times if she was speaking my thoughts and beliefs, or the antithesis of. I will be revisiting this video.

[@panpiper]

My comment was very much directed towards Spitfireseven. I was illustrating that being too flowery with language does not help people to understand and serves more often, not to inform people of great ideas, but rather to hide the fact that the writer does not have any. I am in truth not particularly well educated (not academically anyway, I do read a lot of non-fiction). I can however write fairly well, easily well enough to play that 'obfuscatory' game which I disparage. ;-)

[@MeatMutant]

She's my principal. During orientation she misquoted the dude from the McCarthy hearing ("Have you no shame, sir?...") and I corrected her ("Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you no sense of decency?") But she looked cross with me.

[@polymath7]

Hello, Slabbers. I rememember you quite clearly from the seris of excellent comments you left on parts eleven and fifteen of the D'Souza/Dennett debate about a year ago As I've already said, my initial comment here was in jest; the misspellings are intentional. By the way, what genre of music do you play?

[@JosuVaquerizo]

I knew someone would give me this kind of answer. No, i don't evaluate this talk on aesthetic qualities, like i said, i find the subject interesting. My evaluation of the subject: VERY INTERESTING. My criticism: THE TALK IS DELIVERED IN SUCH A MONOTONE WAY THAT IT SEEMS DISHONET(EVEN THOUGH I AM CONVINCED THAT THIS IS NOT THE CASE). AS A RESULT OF THE DELIVERY I FIND IT HARD TO CONCENTRATE ON WHAT IS BEING SAID and i find myself thinking of other things even though i am trying to listen to her

[@Icix1]

There's serious problems with our education system and unfortunately this is only just scratching the surface. What about the growing underclass of academics? Job competition and cutting of tenure? Of academic disciplines that are dying out or have few modern ramifications?

[@kidmecha]

Well done. A very exquisite way of saying WAKE UP!

[@TimothyCPlattMSM]

A very exciting and inspiring address. I cannot understand many of the negative comments made.

[@panpiper]

The amount of time allowed for a TED presentation is tightly controlled, and the audience is instructed to not applaud lest they waste what little time is available to the speaker. The speakers are in fact instructed to keep speaking through such applause so they can finish their presentation in the time available.

[@theseanze]

Eleven stars!!! Good to finally hear someone show I'm not the only one disappointed with liberal arts schools, just by how similar they are to the other crappy public standards. Time to grow up and USE knowledge toward humanistic goals and values, not just buy, sell, and boast of it. Panpiper: valid point on zealots, but if someone is defined by being zealous, they are probably missing traits like being conscienscious. If they are self-aware, then they're not just some zealot.

[@ArgoSG]

Because there are two different philosophies at odds in the world: "How do I make the most money?" and "How do I do the most good?" We can say accountants are objectively less important to our society than teachers and scientists.

[@menehune2436]

I like queso grandes. My name is Pete. I enjoy a nice spot of tea every once and a while. HEY! 5 dollars a throw, hey!

[@panpiper]

May I request that you re-examine your verdict upon the gold standard. From my analysis (and that of others), the only time the gold standard 'failed', was when governments deviated from it by issuing 'notes' in excess of the gold they actually held to back them, in other words, when they issued fiat currency. Either we have fiat currency, or we have a commodity backed currency (such as gold). There is no other alternative short of no currency, which we cannot do as long as wealth is finite.

[@cannedsandwich8156]

I love arts, and that woman bores me. How someone such concerned by art can talk totally without emotions...

[@eLurkr]

i think she was spot on when she was talking about how specialization takes away from the individual there are so many things i want to learn about, each one is unique and worth learning; i honestly feel i am missing out by having to choose a major and minor

[@elspoko]

She's spot on. We've become thinkers instead of doers. We ponder how the world could be better, instead of actually making a difference. She's chastising the higher educational system for changing people into robots. A young man or woman go into college with changing their world in mind, to a mind solely focused on profit.

[@jimko7]

I use them in my lessons a lot. They are very popular.

[@melvinbrennaniii2355]

Look at her anaysis and look at where we are...it's gotten worse; hope that the current President of Bennington has kept that framework, we need somewhere where change agents who know how to know are engaged in saving the world.

[@MiranUT]

Well put. Perhaps more idea exchanges with educators in China, Japan, Northern Europe? Part of the problem seems to be this idea that the USA is so "great", there's nothing to learn form other countries. This arrogance contributes to the problem.

[@panpiper]

You were right to correct her, but honestly, it would have been more respectful to do so in private, and likely that was the cause of the cross look. The misquote did not materially change the meaning. And correcting her during orientation was you shaming her in public as well as in one sense, wasting the time of the rest of the student body. It could rightly be seen as you grandstanding at her expense.

[@scuppersoh]

Education that specializes will probably create specialists because most people don't carry opportunities to learn very far outside their schooling. (And) Companies like specialists. It makes someone easy to hire if they have a degree in something where it's "point-to-able" that they have a skill. That employee seems to a hiring manager like a safe bet. (But) Innovation grows always from an interdisciplinary view of things. And it's hard to argue that the economy could use innovation.

[@panpiper]

This comment is delightfully illustrative of the perils of higher education, where obfuscatory language and verbosity can be used to occult the lack of any profundity, yet appear to the plebeians as being issued from the intelligentsia.

[@panpiper]

Because the hallmark of being basically educated is that one is able to think rationally and to judge argument based upon reason rather than superstition and doctrinal assertions. Belief in evolution is a fantastically good litmus test as to the level of rationality of a person, and a pretty good indicator as to their level of education.

[@wikicross]

in effect yield the connection between education and values to fundamentalists who you can be sure, have no compactions to using education to further their values - the absolutes of a theocracy." And then at 11:05 :" "The importance of coming to grips with values like justice, equity, truth becomes increasingly evident, as students discover that interests alone cannot tell them when the issue is rethinking education, our approach to health or strategies for achieving an economics of equity."

[@hasatum]

You are correct that people's nature has not changed but the skills needed have. The majority of what Socrates thought he knew was wrong and useless in today's society. To point at the fact that he knew people and debate but then ignore all of the practical day to day knowledge necessary to survive is exactly the problem I'm pointing out. Students who are facing down poverty see your program as irrelevant to the real problems they face. Will you tell them to take comfort in Shakespeare? Really?

[@hasatum]

It is common practice to lump usage (collocations) under the heading of grammar, but you are correct that usage is more accurate. One typically assures someone of a fact rather than letting them know that they can be ensured of it.. You did not make note of the missing "more" before the word "intelligent" in your previous message. I won't remark further on numerous spelling errors that are surely typos Also, it is better to adopt a more civil tone than simply talking about doing so.

[@panpiper]

I talk about intellectual subjects all the time with all sorts of people I meet. I've had good talks with the guy who sells hot dogs on my street corner who really surprised me with his understanding of the stock market. The trick is to be willing to listen, at the same time as knowing enough about whatever you might talk about to make talking to 'you', interesting.

[@hasatum]

Please read the entire thread before calling me a bully. I don't usually bother to worry about someone's use of language until they claim to be more intelligent than me.

[@VliengWieng]

This is awesome!

[@angelwhite]

Is there a transcript of this? I'm interested in what I can pay attention to, but man is it hard to pay attention to her, she is a terrible orator, but the talk sounds interesting, I'd be willing to read it.

[@polymath7]

...relatively free of corperate influence, then no institution is, If you wish to correct my "grammar", you might first learn the meaning of the word, and how it differs from *usage*. Nor is my usage incorrect; one *assures* of something, and is *ensured* of something by another. You will also notice I corrected my elision of the word "more" before you did. You're right about one thing; I would probably do well to adopt a more civil tone. Take care.

[@MiranUT]

There are lots of people graduating from Uni that can't find jobs. One problem is that too many kids go to college that shouldn't (part of the cattle and herd mentality, make money philosophy?) -- not you personally -- but there are fewer and fewer vocational students -- and the country needs them too.

[@panpiper]

I expect you are right, and she doesn't have the time in eighteen minutes to define her every term. I would love to have a conversation with this woman. Maybe I should just do some Googling and read more of what she thinks.

[@hasatum]

Who's to say that philosophy isn't good for business? A moral business is a profitable business. Educators must always strive to be humble. If we value knowledge, we should try to show our feelings and demonstrate its value, not conspire together to jolly along another generation who will come to see learning the way they do exercise and eating vegetables. Always remember: educators work for their students, not the other way around. Ultimately, it is their goals that are important, not ours.

[@Bc2ast]

It seems people need to be constantly entertained. This is profoundly important stuff. Listen.

[@MiranUT]

benjis007, you've hit on something here: in high school we don't learn enough to keep up with new tech, etc. Where I live (Japan) the kids in high school learn a chunk of what is taught at university in the US: The average high schooler knows as much art history as I learned my first year in Uni. Physics is taught. But, some kids are "streamed" onto vocational tracks by hs (some high schools are already specialized).

[@afterbabel]

panpiper, by "economics of equity" i think she simply means a fair distribution of wealth, one that guarantees a decent life for anybody, avoiding extremes like poverty and, on the other hand, concentration of most of the country's wealth in the hands of a very small fraction of its population.

[@MrArob]

I really liked this. Thanks.

[@panpiper]

We need a stable money supply, not a growing supply. We should have a gold standard, with no fractional reserves allowed on demand deposits. With this prices would slowly fall, making everyone better off. The interest paid on savings and investments would be significantly higher, making it far easier for the thrifty to become well off. This would not harm normal productive businesses. It would only disadvantage the super wealthy who have become that through leverage and speculation.

[@flyhead2]

'Google Chrome' is a proper noun, requiring capital letters. Doesn't it pick up on that sort of mistake?

[@jwfcp]

yep, people these days refuse the concept that paying attention takes effort in favor of belligerently declaring that if it cant hold their attention on its own, it is unworthy of attention. I suppose thats a way to separate the wheat from the chafe, but why let wheat be discarded as chafe? demand more of your peers.

[@hasatum]

You disagree with what? I thought we were arguing whether education was inherently or instrumentally valuable? Are you going to now try to argue that I should sit happy and smug all because I have critical thinking skills? The value of critical thinking comes from what it allows us to do.

[@chawk111]

The University system is an anachronism in this day and age when information (the raw material for education) is ubiquitous and free. It's a hangover from a time when a person took their place at these institutions not to learn marketable skills but because it was the done thing for people like them (white, male, middle-class, etc..).

[@funnyguise]

here, here!

[@wikicross]

14:04 :" The most important discovery we made in our focus on public action was to apreciate that the hard choices are not between good and evil, but between competing goods. This discovery is tranforming. It undercuts self-righteousness, radically alters the tone and character of controversy and enriches dramatically the posibilty of finding common ground. Ideology, zealotry,unsubstantiated opinion simply won't do. This is a political education to be sure;

[@hasatum]

None is expressed or implied? Perhaps you should watch again. By the interests of students I mean that what each individual student would choose for themselves. I don't really need to define religion or dogma since Dewey himself said that educators need to act as a new kind of priesthood. He and his ilk have for the past century been working through the big foundations to get students in line with the interests of large corporations by working against the interests of students' own families.

[@timbombadil4046]

she mentioned it in criticism...

[@panpiper]

It's been bearing it's fruit for a very long time, at least since the 60's (the start of my personal recollection). How do you think we got into the mess we are in? The 'vast' majority of people out there don't understand the first thing about economics and how food winds up on their table. And they have no understanding of any sort of philosophy that might lead them to civic engagement beyond distraction from their personal ennui.

[@hasatum]

If you agree that philosophy and knowledge are good for business, then you agree that it has instrumental value. To argue in the next breath that motivating by instrumental value is not your goal is fine, but what about those throngs of students who sit in our classrooms with no sense of future, so sense of purpose? What about the ones who don't CARE that knowledge is inherently valuable because they know they're not going to make any contribution to it? They want to matter and to live.

[@JosuVaquerizo]

oh, one more thing: I gave the video 5 stars when i wrote that first comment, so dont make this associations, I like what she's got to say.

[@ShakespeareInTherapy]

Critical thinking is nearly a lost process. Last year Barney Frank publicly referred to critical thinking as the ability to criticize.

[@Terrible_Peril]

yeah, we should all be passive observers in political and economic affairs, as was envisioned by the framers. the 'responsible class of men' should continue to 'protect the wealth of the opulent from the population.' that's james madison. if you're bothered by people wanting to form a functioning participatory society, i think you have a problem.

[@MeatMutant]

Well, I went up to her privately as everyone was exiting the stands. I doubt anybody heard me.

[@polymath7]

...that students are entitled to determine the curriculum?

[@MiranUT]

Great questions, Politicrafty. Very, very few people I know want to talk about intellectual topics. Evolution? Why not teach world religions (plural) in high school as humanities/history -- totally separate from science. Evolution concepts are already being used in decision-making and other fields. Those who reject it will find themselves left in an antiquated world.

[@panpiper]

IMO the real danger in public education is the standardized, assembly line process of grades 1 through 12. Everyone is to learn the same thing, so everyone learns the same government approved version of history, and everything else, errors and all. Identical widgets. University at least breaks this mold and allows for people to diverge into myriad paths and perspectives. And none of those paths leads better towards independent critical thinking than Liberal Arts.

[@nicholasnahat9699]

This speaker speaks eloquently but it's pretty empty fluff. There is plenty of opportunity in college to pursue either a classical liberal arts education, or indeed any program of study, or greater specialization in one subject. Most students pursue a degree as an investment in a future career; only the wealthiest immune from career pressure can realistically engage in learning for learning's sake. Sorry to say, this society can't afford to have everybody pursuing learning for learning's sake.

[@panpiper]

Note that I have nothing against equality of rights, and everything against the use of power to deny anyone equal opportunity in society. But to imply that everyone is somehow 'entitled' to equal wealth is absurd. I am lazy. Am I entitled to the same share of wealth as my neighbor who works twice as hard? I fear that if I have read her right, she may very well doom her initiative from the outset, by creating a movement entirely at odds with classical liberalism. Did I read her wrong?

[@chawk111]

[cont'd form prior] A degree retains the prestige of exclusivity and, in truth, we still would like to discriminate between different sorts of people and the benign, seemingly populist way to do so is to give preference to those who have managed to become accredited (a quality strongly correlated with other grounds for discrimination - class, parental income..). Credentialism is the new Elitism.

[@benjis007]

I hear what she is saying, but I worry that the logic is flawed -- I have two liberal arts degrees from The University of Texas, and they have no use to me in the job market. I am a waiter at a tex-mex restaurant despite hundreds of applications. I worry that general educations don't get jobs for the degree holders. I often roll my eyes when people talk of getting their liberal arts degrees b/c I know firsthand how useless it really is -- I am broke!

[@ouchlasers]

she needs to learn to pause briefly for the applause, allow a rhythm to develop between her and the audience... but then I guess she precludes that possibility by reading her talk

[@MiranUT]

I know. But these days higher education seems elitist with skyrocketing costs -- not that I think everyone needs to go to college.

[@panpiper]

In a free market, the price of capital is set by the supply of savings relative to the demand for capital. What we have now is a bureaucrat who simply invents a price for political reasons, inevitably a price far lower than what a truly free market would set, which results in the 'printing' of money out of thin air. This has calamitous effects throughout the economy, creating boom/bust cycles in addition to impoverishing the people so as to advantage the super wealthy.

[@benjis007]

its true, but if you were to take a look for entry level job openings (though it would vary by region), you'd find that nearly all qualification standards require a degree or even further education beyond a degree. Thanks for responding though. I think there is truth to what you say -- had I known that I would be a waiter, I certainly would've studied a vocation/trade instead -- but in high school they don't encourage that if you make good grades, they encourage university

[@erichdaniel]

She better be saying that one main topic of future education is the uses of the force, but in the sense that a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away... Jedi did. I think it's more meaningful in that way.

[@ryanwporter]

She could've done all this with an app. You don't need a building for this.

[@vernunfttig]

Bennington and most modern colleges could never agree to a program of liberal arts education. Could you imagine Americans students studying Nietzsche, Hegel, Schiller when most American professors can't read them effectively? COuld you imagine sitting on a table with American students for a discussion on great books? Like their professors, our students have never cared about a universal education. Liz Coleman has never had a liberal education herself.

[@bluebeard2]

I don't know what you mean by a 'participatory' society. If you mean you want to coerce me into participating, then we have a problem, yes. What I see are waves of activists upon activists using the force implicit in the political system to compel me, against my will, to either do things or pay for their crazy projects. Postmodern social engineering being a good example. I do not want to be governed or bullied by activists. I want to be left alone.

[@panpiper]

I got a bit riled by that myself. I see it as the typical hubris of the academic elite. Only those who have paid their way to get the approval of the previously approved are afforded respect. There is some reason for that to be sure. That approval process does serve to weed out a great many crazies, leaving a far higher concentration of insanity in the unapproved blogosphere. But there is also far more entrepreneurship in such freedom. I dare say many of the big ideas are now there.

[@gailforce]

Fiat currency was not an attempt to seize power, but an attempt at clinging to power. "They" have ran out of tricks, though. The gold standard is a disaster imo.

[@whiff1962]

Yes, diplomas-r-us is what so many universities have become. It is in many ways a pandering to, and, truly a repudiation of the noble undertaking of the traditional university, where learning must now have its functional and practical outcome, and where the student is channeled through his respective career preparation. The university risks being a great lie.

[@hasatum]

I'm no fan of Bertrand Russell. While I think that knowledge should be inherently valued, I don't think that educators should organize to try to change attitudes about knowledge. In our efforts to get students to not think about the utility of knowledge, we have encourage apathy and passiveness. We should instead be encouraging students to pursue their own goals and help provide them with the knowledge that they desire to meet those goals. Innovation and entrepreneurship depends on this.

[@panpiper]

The system is built to take purchasing power from the common folk by inflating the money supply through artificially low interest rates. This creates price inflation (whereas normally, prices for all things would slowly fall, benefiting all persons) but puts vast and cheap amounts of money into the hands of speculators and corporations. These wealthy use the cheap money to leverage their investments, so as to magnify their potential profits often ten fold! Continued...

[@hasatum]

How do they know? Are you serious? Because they're not stupid. They know that they could do a lot more but they also know that will simply push students at the top to work even harder. Most students don't want to compete academically and a "well-educated man" only derives pleasure and confidence from the sense of superiority he gets. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what money is: it's just a way of storing and trading work. Good luck motivating.

[@chawk111]

firefox too

[@flyhead2]

I was.

[@panpiper]

"The hard choices are not between good and evil, but between competing goods." I could not agree more. "There is no such thing as a viable democracy made up of experts, zealots, politicians and spectators." But zealots are often the most effective champions of an idea. Can change be effected without champions? "An economics of equity." This is where my hair gets into hackles. Am I to understand that she has built in an assumption of socialism into her first precepts?

[@ConserVet]

I wanted to like this TEDTalk, but what a load it turned out to be. The main theme of her presentation is not enough action by academia to promote further liberal enlightenment, which I would argue is the main problem with American higher education. I agree with some of her points, especially academic specialization, but promotion of individual specialness, celebration of oppressed populations, and anti-establishment groupthink has long supplanted academics in our premier universities. Academics and knowledge solidified and propelled us as a culture and a nation for our first 200 years; unless drastic change is made within our institutes of higher learning we will continue the intellectual backslide begun decades ago.

[@hasatum]

Education is about fostering youth who are able to create knowledge as much as it is about passing knowledge on to a new generation. Your point about democracy supports my view, not Ms Coleman's. If individuals are allowed to choose their own education, the best ideas will gain traction over time If, on the other hand, the majority (in terms of population or wealth) is allowed to indoctrinate minorities to accept a particular view, then scientific inquiry is stifled and progress is stymied.

[@hasatum]

Yes! Students and their families are paying for their education through taxes so they are entitled to decide what they will learn. Right now, lobbyists and special interests determine the curriculum. Also, before claiming to be more intelligent than another person, it would help to check your grammar first. It should have been "assured" not "ensured" and it looks like you missed the word "more" as well. Better yet, stick to common courtesy and avoid such claims altogether. Take care.

[@flyhead2]

It was slightly amusing to note in her opening remarks that Eastern European education consisted of little more than state propoganda (somewhat true) and then decried the fact that liberal arts have fallen by the wayside in the US. Perhaps it's just me reading too much into things...