Should've Said Never - Never Say Never Again (1983) || From Rewatch with Love Ep14

[@StressedYeti]

This movie had one of my favorite "Bond lines" Fatima Blush: Oh, how reckless of me. I made you all wet. James Bond: Yes, but my martini is still dry.

[@andykehoe4339]

Graham this entire episode: “I expect nothing, and I’m still disappointed”

[@judyhopps9380]

The fight scene in the clinic was with former British wrestler Pat Roach. He was also the nazi who gets hit with the propeller in Raiders of the Lost Ark, the huge thugee who gets crushed in Temple of Doom, and a huge Gestapo agent in a deleted scene on the blimp in Last Crusade. Gentle giant, loved by all.

[@TheAndrewmcnelis]

The guys were really fucking slack for this episode; they normally talk about that kinda stuff.

[@DamienE11]

@@TheAndrewmcnelis Honestly, for this boring, atmosphere sucking movie, it's just not worth the added time

[@TheAndrewmcnelis]

DamienE11 agreed. They did still spend 2 hours+though...

[@ricardocantoral7672]

NSNA's DP also worked on the first three Indy movies.

[@tarnopol]

Holy shit--you're right, Judy! Same guy! How did I never put that together--and I've only seen both films dozens of times at this point. LOL

[@MrTBoneSF]

As for the title "Octopussy", the hardest I ever saw my dad laugh was at our local cinema when it was just a two-screen theater (this was a decade before the multiplexes), and I was too young to understand why. The marquee had on it "Now Playing: The Man Who Loved Women + Octopussy". I'm guessing the theater manager was either clueless or realized this was a once in a lifetime opportunity.

[@PlebNC]

Manager: "I hate this job and if I'm gonna get fired it's gonna be for doing something awesome."

[@kuznickic1]

I'm thinking the latter...the manager couldn't resist and nor could I!!

[@buddy1935star]

I'm 51 and it's the first Bond movie I saw in the theater with my dad in 1983. This movie had what I like in Bond movies. Cool locations, car chase, pretty girls, ocean shots, casino scene, and the villian Bond girl was great.

[@MrTBoneSF]

The year this was made, Atari was basically like Apple and were the fastest growing company in the world. Atari was Apple long before Apple was Apple. In fact, Jobs was not only a one-time employee of Atari (and Jobs subcontracted most of it out to Steve Wozniak), Jobs would buy microprocessors from Atari because Apple had no credit. And as Apple expanded, execs at Atari essentially vouched for Jobs when they needed to buy more chips.

[@markmittelbach7975]

The new forth category for bond theme songs: Bangers, Belters, Ballads, and BLAND

[@dtuk22]

The theme to Quantum of Solice has its own unique category.... Crap !

[@ricardocantoral7672]

@@dtuk22 Die Another Day is still worse.

[@phila3884]

I like the song. I like Lani Hall, but somehow the actual track falls a little flat. Now, for a real surprise-look up who wrote it....

[@KonradSeverinHilstad]

@Tim Hands we don't talk about die another day

[@CapnHat87]

Matt G is absolutely *slaughtering* it with the editing, good lord. Kudos!

[@Paul91-]

Listening to these brilliant reviews on Spotify does not do them justice. Watching them on KZbin with Matt's awesome editing just makes them all of the more enjoyable.

[@calebmarmon1310]

I second the love Matt G. He’s almost the third host.

[@robertmro]

I’m going to guess that either you didn’t get my email about the main title or you didn’t find it pertinent. I worked on the main title at R/Greenberg Associates. Jack Schwartzman looked at a lot of Maurice Binder-like designs but adamantly wanted something different. He had already partially done a title treatment with Richard Williams (of Who Framed Roger Rabbit fame) that he rejected. He showed us the storyboards and footage of Sean Connery that where meant to be part of it. If you think these titles are too cheap looking the Richard Williams stuff was absolutely bizarre. If anyone is interested I can try to describe them. I was excited when the project came in and I was even more disappointed then you are about the final film.

[@loadingreadyrun]

Robert, hello! I am so sorry I never replied to your email-we’re just keeping afloat over here 😓 Thank you so much for the additional insight!

[@jayfaraday1176]

Do you have any physical media from the film that was never used? If not, I am quite interested in these Richard Williams titles.

[@robertmro]

Akai Hikari I don’t have any physical media. It’s possible that RGA, which is still in existence in a different form, may have the editorial and art elements archived. I wonder if Richard Williams estate has something. Richard W did some really great movie title. The Charge of the Light Brigade 1968 and Murder on the Orient Express 1974 are excellent examples.

[@jayfaraday1176]

@@robertmro I've never seen anything of his, I don't believe. I do find these things quite interesting though. I'm curious about you, actually. How'd you end up working on this... train wreck isn't profound enough.

[@robertmro]

Akai Hikari I worked for Richard and Robert Greenberg for 10 years. The projects, good, bad or indifferent, came in and we worked on them. The company was one of the premier title design studios at that time. They did famous title like “Superman” 1978, “Altered States” 1980, “Alien” 1979, “Dirty Dancing” 1978, “Weird Science” 1985, “Ghostbusters” 1984 etc. The company is an online advertising agency now.

[@williamh0809]

Verlie Leon, who played the lady who fishes Bond out of the sea also played the hotel receptionist in The Spy Who Loved Me.

[@robertroberto2487]

Valerie Leon Played Lotus The Bullwhip Lover In Revenge Pink Panther.SWLM Hotel Reception Clerk.

[@1losttheGame]

Matt, your editing commentary is one of the best additions to this series. Thank you.

[@vtmarik]

I love his quip before he fires the pen and says "It's against policy to give out endorsements." So fun!

[@empath69]

Yeah, very good sign of Bond using psychology to manipulate an opponent - just played to her ego to stay alive long enough to outwit her.

[@empath69]

Fatima Bond: Well, there WAS this one girl in Philadelphia... Fatima >RAGE

[@Voidhawk42]

Gets my vote for "Fave Bond Moment".

[@salt27dogg]

“Well there was once this girl in Philadelphia!!! “

[@RatherWatchThemSA]

"He's the Q stand-in." So the Queue

[@hfar_in_the_sky]

Doh!

[@awalton]

What would have been a good metaphor for this: Imagine Sony put out a Spider-Man movie with Tobey Maguire in the same year as DisneyMarvel put out a Spider-Man movie with Tom Holland. ...because that's a thing that could definitely happen.

[@snvhill]

To be fair: that sort of scenario could be pulled off or excused with either time travel, cloning, or dimensional shenanigans. Even James Bond, a series which produced Moonraker (which I personally love), would probably choke at doing that. I have a terrible feeling that I'm going to regret saying this in a few years when the Bond series does a cloning plot.

[@Treblaine]

@@snvhill There have been Bond Stories floating around for years which feature a "Bond Double" a villain who looks exactly like Bond and would presumably be played by the same actor. The film series has had villains changing their appearance to appear convincingly like someone else several times already. But only once (in From Russia With Love) to look like Bond. But alas, I think the real worry is that the Bond producers will keep feeling it has to compete with Jason Bourne films more than Mission Impossible films. I personally think the M:I films have been doing great while the Bourne formula has stagnated.

[@operationgoldfish8331]

What I find weird is that Tobey Maguire has somehow become the seminal movie Spiderman when he was *terrible* in that role. When he wasn't in the suit he seemed to be running on valium. Whereas Andrew Garfield did a pretty good job and at least *acted* the role. Tom Holland is possibly a bit too fresh faced and untroubled but even he beats Maguire.

[@Treblaine]

@@operationgoldfish8331 hey, it was like the first of the modern superhero movies, they didn't have it perfect.

[@operationgoldfish8331]

@@Treblaine Blade - 1998; X-Men 2000; Spider-Man *2002* - It certainly wasn't the first of the modern superhero movies. The franchise was actually quite old fashioned in its approach, in that it relied on its villains to provide the engaging characters and acting chops. In many ways it harked back to the late 1970s/early 80s Superman and 1980s Batman movies, with its OTT villains and comedy emphasis. It was just poor casting. I saw a 'making of' documentary and Maguire got the part because of how he looked and moved in the suit.

[@vdd]

Fatima's death is fantastic just because it works so well for that insane character

[@stvdagger8074]

You state that the opening credits scene of "Octopussy" also features what appears to be "Cuban revolutionaries". Not really, the polo match is way to bourgeois for revolutionaries. The opponents in that scene are clearly intended to be Argentinians. The roundel on their uniforms adds a yellow star to the Argentine blue & white to avoid being too blatant. Octopussy came out in 1983 and the year before the UK and the Argentinian junta had a bit of a scuffle over some South Atlantic real estate.

[@Treblaine]

Yeah, don't want to mix up the Argentinians with the Communist Cubans, I think both would be insulted by the suggestion that either was anything like the other.

[@simonchalk2369]

This movie is full of subtext, and by "subtext" I mean "mid-life crisis."

[@loadingreadyrun]

Ha!

[@ricardocantoral7672]

I honestly wish the film delved further into Bond's mid life crisis in the vein of Star Trek II.

[@tarnopol]

@@ricardocantoral7672 They did a good job with that at the beginning, but I hear ya.

[@Treblaine]

Yeah, the motorcycle is what did it. When he didn't even favour a motorcycle when nearly half his age. This may have been accidental as supposedly they were originally developing the script for another actor to play Bond and had to just add in lines later to reference Bond's age but couldn't adjust bigger things. It would make more sense for Not-Q to offer Bond a motorcycle and him say "no, that's ridiculous" and use a more old fashioned Bond car like his Aston Martin. Maybe his suped up bike should have been stolen by one of the younger more athletic villains.

[@ricardocantoral7672]

@@Treblaine As far as I know, this film was always meant to be vehicle for Connery but it was originally conceived in the mid 1970s.

[@Billis75]

How many people here will tell you that George Lucas definitely did not direct Return of the Jedi? That was Richard Marquand.

[@Wraithfighter]

George Lucas was definitely not the *credited* director for Return of the Jedi. That doesn’t mean that he didn’t direct it. I recall an anecdote from a video essay on the creation of the Original Trilogy: That among the cast, it was felt that there were two puppets on set for the Dagobah scenes: Yoda, and Richard Marquand.

[@notme222]

@@Wraithfighter Oh yeah. I've heard that too but had forgotten. Good anecdote.

[@ricardocantoral7672]

I see. According to Gary Kurtz, Lucas wanted Kershner to function the same way but the latter wasn't havin' it !

[@Wraithfighter]

@@ricardocantoral7672 From what I've heard, it was more complicated than that? Lucas didn't want a puppet, he just wanted someone that would do it like he wanted, on time and budget. ........yes, I'm aware of the thinness of the line involved here. But my point is just that I remember that Lucas' strife arose during production and editing, not that he sought out to hire someone that would do it all his way.

[@ricardocantoral7672]

@@Wraithfighter Perhaps not a puppet but at the very least, a director who was not keen on placing a personal stamp on his work.

[@hfar_in_the_sky]

The fact that this was apparently fairly popular with audiences of the day and that they thought that "Connery hadn't lost his touch" honestly boggles my mind. I remember watching it and at one point wondering if this was a direct to TV movie that someone had somehow tricked Connery into acting in.

[@Weazel1]

Cocaine is one heluva drug

[@Shorty_Lickens]

Lippe was played by Pat Roach, who was the Heavy in Raiders of the Lost Ark, and the Heavy in Temple of Doom, and General Kael in Willow, and Toth Amon in Conan The Destroyer, and Brytag in Red Sonja. He's pretty much always an enforcer, and fits The Dragon trope.

[@salt27dogg]

Did anyone notice how Largo in Thunderball had a patch , in NSNA had Pretacci with an eye patch. In Thunderball Bond grabs the grape, in NSNA he leaves the grape and gets the apple. In Thunderball he gets the air back pack and NSNA they have air pods . Fiona had a bike, Bond in NSNA had a bike. Palmyra was Largo’s home in Bahamas. NSNA Palmyra was in North Africa. Disco volunte was changed to Flying saucer ( same meaning ) . Sharks in both ! Domino kills largo with an arrow in both. Thunderball had a scene in France, NSNA also went to France. I personally didn’t like the movie . Loved Thunderball

[@empath69]

@@salt27dogg I mean, the guy who wrote the Thunderball screenplay (originally) is the guy who had the hard-fought-over legal rights to this story and was reusing its parts to make his movie.

[@salt27dogg]

@@empath69 I know that . What I am saying is that they used aspects of Thunderball and put them in different scenarios in Never Say…. Like Petachi’s false eye and Thunderball Largo eye patch . Thunderball Shrublins Connery grabbing the grape….in Never say never he goes to grab it and takes the apple or orange instead. Flying saucer disco volante…. The jet pack in thunderball and the never say never jet packs later in the film .

[@empath69]

@@salt27doggso you're saying that Kevin McClory's writing strongly resembles...Kevin McClory's writing... This one specific screenplay was the subject of a legal battle drawn out for years, and McClory walked away with the rights to make ONE film SPECIFICALLY using his screenplay. The fact that a massive number of details and plot points are lifted from the former film and used in the latter one isn't especially fascinating or surprising, but in fact expected and necessary, because if McClory *had* diverged much from the original screenplay, a legal argument could have been made that he exceeded the scope of his production rights.

[@austoful]

I can confirm that Sean Connery was incredibly handsome in this movie, He is only 53 at this point, which is definitely up there but he is still a solid 8/10. It would be 7 years AFTER this movie that he would be voted People magazines "Sexiest man alive". I know a considerable amount of people who say that Sean Connery is distractingly hot in *Red October*,

[@ThreadBomb]

I think NSNA is an underrated movie. It's just a shame the title song audio is so bad, and it's not a "legit" production (which is why the fanboys hate it). It has a lot of good laughs (with Connery obviously enjoying himself), and on the other hand it's not afraid to get a bit nasty with the violence, which I enjoy as a contrast. Both the villain and the main girl put in very strong performances. And it's more enjoyable than Thunderball, a movie which might be the dullest of all the Bond films. Oh, Felix Leiter actually felt like a real character in this movie. It's a shame he wasn't brought back again.

[@swordfishspike7636]

Fatima: "Oh boy, here I go killing again"

[@steelfox13]

*Mickey Mouse Voice* Oh Boy!

[@CountZeroOr]

So, um... t his was the first Bond movie I ever watched. I had turned 13, and had never seen any other Bond films before this, and decided that since I was old enough, I would watch a Bond film - and this was the first one available on Cable. I chose poorly.

[@Pistoolkip]

We owned this on on VHS. I remember watching it multiple times at the age of 8. I remember it fontly and as one of my favorite Bonds - but I also haven't seen it in 25 years.

[@tropicalcatdetective]

Matthijs van Staalduine That is more my experience as well, young enough not to know better when first seeing it, and thus still have a positive appreciation for the film due to the many enjoyable VHS viewings from my childhood. I find that the majority of opinions towards the film are more like the reviewers though nowadays.

[@ThreadBomb]

I think it's an underrated movie. It's just a shame the title song audio is so bad, and it's not a "legit" production.

[@TimmyTantrum]

I started this episode while Connery was still alive, and finished it today, Halloween 2020, with the news of his passing. RIP Sean Connery. Time to pour out a Scotch to one of Scotland's national treasures.

[@christophernuzzi2780]

6:09 Lucas did NOT direct Return of the Jedi. It was directed by Richard Marquand.

[@Lloyd_Meadhbh]

I'm imagining the post-mortem for Mr Magic Cornea: 'Cause of death - multiple contusions and severe internal bleeding following high-speed collision with a building, brought about by... an explosive snake?'

[@mewr11]

The diving horse is actually a thing that still happens, although the only currently operational North American diving horse only dives ~2 meters down to the water. Wikipedia lists the largest recurring horse dive at nearly 20 meters, but that got shut down by animal rights activists pretty quickly.

[@shaxxsextmag3612]

I can not wait to see where “you know my name” is on the bangers, ballads, and belters

[@jcharpak]

Definitely will be a banger

[@RecklessFables]

Connery was in Zardoz, he will literally wear anything that is handed to him.

[@Doodlesthegreat]

Zardoz is the better movie, as it's only slightly less confusing than this one.

[@operationgoldfish8331]

I think the business wth the dungarees is fairly straightforward. The woman who pulled him out of the drink was wearing dungarees over a bikini. The dungarees were clearly the only clothes on board that he could wear.

[@Endocrom]

His two rolls after this were as the Green Knight and Ramirez in Highlander, so... yeah.

[@blofeld39]

Remember the blue terrycloth "romper suit" in "Goldfinger"?

[@aydan1686]

The fan edit of this movie ‘Never Say Mcclory Again’ makes this film much more watchable. It replaces the soundtrack with John Barry music from older Sean Connery 007 movies, the pacing is fixed with scenes as some have been re arranged etc and they even added the gun barrel intro. It makes it feel a lot more like a traditional bond movie and really helps with the atmosphere and flow of scenes and the overall feel. Well worth a watch!

[@aydan1686]

Tim Hands yep that’s the one. I have both the old version and the newest HD release where he fixed up some minor issues with the first. It’s pretty good, the change of scene order and he music really works at times. I have to comment the effort it must have taken him to make it

[@hatchcrazy]

We need a retroactive movie ranking of Blofeld's cats. EDIT: So for their movie supervillain's yacht they borrowed an actual supervillain's yacht? That's some smart production. EDIT EDIT: Around WW2 most submarines did in fact have small naval artillery guns or "deck guns" mounted at the base of the conning tower, and many also had defensive machine guns. Submarines of the time spent a lot more time on the surface than subs today, especially when they were firing on surface ships, and the deck gun was used to sink surface targets too small to warrant a torpedo, shell the shore, or engage enemy surface vessels. Modern submarines are submerged nearly all the time and rarely shoot at surface ships, so they don't need them. The last British sub to mount a deck gun was decommissioned in 1974, so MI-6 having one in a 1983 movie is still a little weird.

[@michaelkeenan2307]

1:07:00 smash cut to "This film is dedicated to the brave mujahideen fighters of Afghanistan"

[@TurbosTantrums]

I've just spend ten minutes scrutinising the IMDB listing for Klaus Maria Brandauer, because I was absolutely *convinced* he was in a 60s-70s war film, like Battle of Britain or A Bridge Too Far. But apparently he wasn't. He was, however, in "The Russia House" with Connery in 1990. So there's that.

[@CJJC]

I like the “fill this jar” joke, and I especially liked it the first time around in 1970s prison sitcom Porridge.

[@Archonicenergy]

Porridge was great. Though going straight wasn't as good. Though tbh not many spin-offs are as good as the thing it spun from

[@bensargeant8150]

Came here to say the same thing. Apparently the same writers also used it a third time in 'Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads?' so the must have been pretty proud of it!

[@CJJC]

And THIS comment is how I learned Clement and La Frenais worked on this script. I feel better about the lifting of that joke now.

[@franohmsford7548]

@@Archonicenergy It's hard to be as good as Porridge was - Going Straight is very underated though. TBF I'd actually be surprised IF this joke hadn't been used on TV or Film prior to 1974 so I don''t know if it's fair to say that Porridge was the first to use it either.

[@Mute_Nostril_Agony]

The scene later where Bond and Felix escape by posing as a boxer and his trainer was also in the movie version of Porridge...

[@Bojack727]

You know what's amazing, the scene featuring the game Largo created is mostly recreated in the Citadel DLC for Mass Effect 3. The only major difference is that it's changed to a battle between two fleets of spaceships. The characters even get shocked in a similar way when they take a loss! If it was intentional, then it's nuts to think that a videogame made almost 30 years later (2012) would reference something from this movie.

[@Tesseract_King]

"Specialist? Kick her ass." I love that scene.

[@thresherGnat]

This movie really feels like it was a bunch of studio executives all trying to make a Bond movie with their own spin. It seems to be a bit more serious tone, but Arty want gratuitous sex and violence. The first half has a big bit about old man Bond being made to eat healthy and complaining about the new policies; then they have him play some hip new arcade games. And SPECTRE feels like it has 3 different plots. There are some really good bits. We get some new takes on Bond's supporting cast. The health clinic is funny. James Bond playing Indiana Jones works better than it sounds, but on a whole it's just a mess. Why do they spend so much time on Petachi having to hack the system in 8 seconds, and not properly introduce Nicole. It's just weird.

[@TheBeird]

The world is going to shit, and I’m not much of a Bond fan anymore, but these podcasts make my day.

[@Firestar4041]

The way Largo and Bond go from, upset reaction, to chillin on deck; I get the feeling, that they also wanted to remake Goldfinger, with how the bad guy is keeping Bond around longer than needed, for a cover. So i get the vibe that this is another, just pure chaotic mess of edits, they strung together after everything.

[@KumaKaori]

"Renault" 1:22:07, for those who need it spelled out. French Car maker that's just excessively difficult to pronounce unconfusingly in English. As Graham has demonstrated. 1:58:30 "Oh, This one." XD. MATT! The Editor's commentary on these podcasts is very worth it.

[@raminagrobis6112]

Renault is pronounced "re-no". The " re" syllable is the part extremely hard to pronounce for an anglophone, but the closest would be the -re in 'genre, but with the "r" sound coming from the tongue vibrating against the palate'. Very hard to pronounce.... "Nault" is just pronounced "no" (with a shorter vowel, as in.... no !). So it is NOT pronounced as written !

[@TehFrenchy29]

As feodoric says it's a two syllable word where because it's French the "re" is the hardest part to pronounce properly for English speakers. Graham is easily "close enough for comedy" as the saying goes, anyone familiar with the company should immediately know who he means and even the French wouldn't really be upset over how he pronounces it considering any French spoken by Graham would still have his western Canadian accent.

[@raminagrobis6112]

@@TehFrenchy29 In fact, I mainly wanted to point out that "-nault" is NOT pronounced as written, but simply "no". As in the Nevada town, Reno. Not complicated, right? Trust me, French speakers do mind when a name as symbolic of French craft as Renault is massacred as it was. Especially as it was unintelligible as pronounced, as the OP said. Not "close enough" by any stretch ! Don't take my remark as a stark criticism. I speak both languages, and I've received enough blank stares from anglophones if I slightly mispronounced some English word, that I feel francophones and people at Renault :) should be entitled to the same respect for their language. Take it as a learning experience: everybody wants to learn and expand their knowledge, right?. I don't mind the 're' : I know it's difficult for anglo tongues. But "nault" ? Had I not read the comment, nor watched NSNA, I would have had no idea that Graham meant the Renault brand. Just trying to be helpful here for a very entertaining series!

[@robertbrown4629]

George lazenby did return to James bond in 1983 well at least JB in the return from man from uncle tv movie with an Aston Martin db5 😊

[@Pistoolkip]

We owned this on VHS back in the day. In restrospect, watching this again and again as an 8 year old really influenced my perception of James Bond movies, view on sex, and taste in women.

[@leopoldmolitch4040]

This is interesting to me. I watched this for the first time not too long ago, and I dunno, I mostly interpreted it as a comedy, and I loved it. I guess it really is up to the viewer. To each their own, its been said.

[@nantukoprime]

I...remember this movie more than I should. Thanks, brain.

[@donovanmayne-nicholls3631]

Some context to clarify the Flemin/McClory issue: McClory was a nobody who had lost his connections to Hollywood. He had convinced Ivar Bryce, a friend of Fleming's, that he was "talented": Bryce financed McClory's only movie and, after that failed, he started sweet-talking Fleming into making a Bond movie. Neither Bryce nor Fleming had any knowledge of the movie business and fell for it. The original plot synopsis for Thunderball was written by Ernest Cuneo, another friend of Fleming's who was involved in the production company. Fleming went on to write a screen treatment based on that. Whittingham had not been brought in yet. Whittingham wrote a second draft which improved on certain aspects but was generally more of a step backwards than forwards. The documents reads BASED ON A STORY BY IAN FLEMING. No mention appears at this point of McClory. Fleming wrote a third draft which is basically a polish of his first, as if he were purposefully ignoring any changes introduced by Whittingham. For instance, Whittingham changed the heroine's name from Domino to Gaby on the second draft; Fleming changed it back to Domino. The name change, by the way, is a gimmick used by writers to claim credit. The project was already losing momentum as they'd failed to attract Hitchcock into doing it. Fleming left for Jamaica and wrote the novel based on his version of the script. Whittingham's second draft was done after Fleming left when it was already clear the movie wouldn't get made. Once again, the title page makes no mention of McClory. There's no way Fleming could have had access to later changes to the script made by people in the UK while he was in Jamaica in those pre-fax days. The novel expands on Fleming's treatment (the Shrublands episode was never in the script, neither was SPECTRE nor Blofeld. These changes only appear in the novel). In short, Fleming didn't plagiarize anybody. He wrote a novel based on his own script. The only person who'd any reason to sue for use of ideas, Ernest Cuneo, didn't. It isn't even clear whether Whittingham's changes were actually his ideas or he was just typing what he had been told to. Regardless, he was a writer for hire, not a partner, working on another person's idea. He should have never had a claim to the story. And McClory? Well, he never wrote anything. He claimed he contributed ideas, which is very hard to prove/debunk. And he ended up with the rights to the story on that assumption. He spend the next two decades trying to mount a remake. He never even attempted to write anything else on his own or to start any other unrelated projects. To this day, I'm still baffled that Bond "fans" choose to take his side over Fleming's. Without Fleming, we'd never had Bond, period. I, for one, am glad this movie is hard to find. It is an embarrassment not only to Fleming's character but to filmmaking in general. McClory won the rights

[@tropicalcatdetective]

I must’ve been the right age for this film when it came out, because all the legitimate contrivances and tonal changes they highlight as annoying just went straight over my head as a kid, and nowadays the nostalgia goggles let me look past that stuff and I just find it a highly entertaining 80s adventure film. That said, Thunderball is still a far superior version of this story, and I think I would actually place this movie higher in ranking than Diamonds Are Forever. Also, the ‘show don’t tell’ explanation as to how the video game worked when I was a kid made more sense to me than all the gambling and Baccarat scenes in any other 007 film I was aware of. In fact, to this day, I’m still a little unclear exactly how Baccarat works, haha.

[@Activated_Complex]

Never Say Never Again is basically a Naked Gun movie without Leslie Nielsen. You wouldn’t have to change much about the script to make it work, intentionally, as a comedy. And the only other casting change would the Juice as Felix, who literally runs into Frank at the airport.

[@ricardocantoral7672]

Given the pacing, I'd say that Never Say Never Again is channeling the Pink Panther films.

[@Weazel1]

So the actor who plays Lippe is Pat Roach. You might remember him for getting spread across the tail of the German flying wing in Raiders of the Lost Ark. Or becoming a big red smear on a stone crushing roller in Temple of Doom. Or gutted in both Conan films AND in Willow as General Kael. The point is, he gets gruesomely killed a lot in several films.

[@danrussell8572]

Also had a respectable career as a British wrestler

[@MrDavey2010]

Although he’s referred to as Lippe, I’m not sure he was that character, because he was gentry with the title ‘Count’.

[@andreraymond6860]

My favorite musical cue from the movie is when Bond is eating an apple and finds Nicole's body. It is an oh so cool liyyle jazz riff that turns into a full chase theme as he grabs the motorcycle and starts chasing Fatima Blush. It sort of peters out at some point but starts out strong. Legrand started his career as a jazz musician and writer.

[@Korandder]

Deck guns were a thing on submarines in the Second World War and earlier when submarines were vessels that could submerge but spent much of their time on the surface. On a more modern submarine that is intended to remain underwater almost always, deck are no longer a thing due to the increased drag.

[@Doodlesthegreat]

I suppose the idea was they had a rocket launcher they could bring up and deploy for use on the surface... which modern subs almost never do. But if they shot this flick today, they COULD get away with using a Virgina-class sub's vertical launch tubes for cruise missiles.

[@Targisvear]

The "Cuban revolutionaries" in the intros (yes, plural) may be an 80s Central American revolutions (Nicaragua, for example) reference. Of course, Cubans participated in those. But given the era it is probably not (a simulation of) Cuba itself.

[@jillpole]

42:11 *Marvin the Martian voice* Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!

[@RVDfanman1]

I had mixed up Fatima with Xena Onatopp from Goldeneye

[@josephdanieljirehdimacali4418]

Understandable they are almost the same character.

[@jcharpak]

Goldeneye steals a lot from this movie including the "Bond is a relic of a bygone age where agents smoked, gambled and slept their way through the plot whereas now MI6 is run by bureaucrats and accountants" trope

[@ricardocantoral7672]

@@jcharpak Unfortunately, both films have the same issue of not fully exploring that substance.

[@Shorty_Lickens]

I didnt have to dig up the blu-ray it played on HBO a million times in the 80's. I saw it about half a million times myself. it appeals more to 10 year olds than 40 year olds, which is an indicator of the writing level.

[@drsteele]

The fill it up gag comes from Clement and Le Frenais who did a Connery insisted upon doctoring of the script. They'd used it previously in their superlative sitcom Porridge.

[@scottclark3139]

The Tears of Allah set is still right up there with the Temple of Doom and Lex Luther’s underground swimming pool in the original Superman as one of the most awesome sets ever

[@Amphy002]

The video game sequence was a major selling point for the movie at the time, showing how hip and 'down with the kids' it was desperate to be. Unfortunately time has not been kind to the 1980s graphics.

[@ricardocantoral7672]

Hey, it could have been worse. They could have gone ahead with the proposed break dancing contest.

[@RatherWatchThemSA]

So I saw the "virtual nuclear conquest game" scene on TV by happenstance, and I immediately assumed, "Oh, this must be Thunderball. They're playing Thunderball!"

[@6reve]

I love this movie! It was the first James Bond film I saw and it was so cool! Sean Connery, Klaus Maria Brandauer... Barbara Carrera driving a Renault 2 Turbo... honestly what's not to love?

[@andreraymond6860]

There was a great deal of litigation between Kevin McLory and EON productions leading up to the production of Never Say Never Again. I remember reading that this was ostensibly supposed to be an adaptation of the Thunderball novel, and so EON won the right to 'suppervise' or get a look at the shooting script for the movie. If the writers drifted too far from the book plot they could get into serious legal difficulties. It is one of those instances where lawyers had a sort of final script approval of a rival production. You can imagine how funny it all was from the Barbara Broccoli camp's side as they prepared Octopussy and read the plans for Never Say Never Again.

[@NismoJester]

Brilliant podcast - I really enjoyed it. Looking forward to your others. Thanks 👍

[@johnpotts8308]

Lippi was played by Pat Roach, a man notable for being killed by Indy in all three Indiana Jones movies (there ARE only three IJ movies)!

[@jayniks74]

After watching NTTD, i cant wait for Never Say Never Again, Part 2....Again.

[@BenMarcWilliams]

It's always fun, looking at the prop on the right hand side of the table, and trying to remember what part of the movie it's from.

[@maxseidelman6926]

I actually liked how they portayed M in this movie. It really reminded me of a non-western Clint Eastwood film; like 3/4 of his films set in the modern day usually deal with some young arrogant and entitled beaurocrat as his boss all while the Eastwood character does his job and does it well.

[@chucklemaster9809]

I like a lot of things about this movie. Maybe overall it's not great, but a lot of the individual parts rule.

[@tarnopol]

I sincerely think this is one of the best Bonds ever made. Connery was a better actor; the other principals are top-notch; it's truly funny at points (intentionally); and the script is just well done. I actually like it better than Thunderball.

[@jcharpak]

Bond:"I am to eliminate all free radicals" (e.g. lower my cholesterol) Moneypenny:"Oh, do be careful James" (thinking he's to assassinate terrorists) Classic 👍

[@Endocrom]

Lippe was General Kael from Willow, also the big guy that gets propeller'd in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Speaking of Willow, Domino's brother was Mad Martigan's blonde warrior friend.

[@christophernuzzi2780]

33:26 That exercise device is called a Bullworker!

[@matthewmoodie4941]

This was my first James Bond movie. After watching it once, I am surprised how much I remembered.

[@hex2bin]

The remote she uses to detonate the bomb is a Philips digital alarmclock with an added antenna. I have one.

[@SHONNER]

I didn't know this was a remake of Thunderball. I saw the movie in the theater when it came out. I'll have to unwrap the DVD I bought 20 years ago and give it another watch.

[@robvangessel3766]

Lorenzo Semple Jr. wrote the script for Robert Redford's 3 Days of the Condor! A super-wonderful film, and very complex. He also wrote PAPILLON, and THE PARALLEX VIEW. All a bit more noteworthy than Flash Gordon, Kong '76, or the Adam West Batman series.

[@ricardocantoral7672]

Papillon is my favorite McQueen film.

[@robvangessel3766]

@@ricardocantoral7672 It's ONE of my favorite films, in general.

[@GGCrono]

I know it's a ways off, but I can't wait for y'all to recap Goldeneye.

[@maureenlynch2019]

Despite what Graham says, George Lucas did not direct Return of the Jedi. He was right when he says Irvin Kershner directed The Empire Strikes Back and Robocop 2, but a guy named Richard Marquand directed Return of the Jedi.

[@Winterpandacookies]

43:32 reminds me of the classroom that the arts student union used to hold arts student council meetings. So maybe this is a student union meeting :p

[@HS_Gomikubi]

I made a comment replying to someone on the Goldeneye episode about the fact that I discovered the existence of these films in something like 2001 or so, which put me at the age of ten when I first played the game and subsequently got curious about the films. It might have been my Father's suggestion to watch them in chronological order or it may have been my own decision, but the weird thing about this movie in particular is that I definitely remember seeing the box on the shelf with the others, but I know that amongst the films we watched this was not one of them. Also the memory I've retained from my young child brain impression of said box/cover art was that I read it as "NSN,A" and from that I assumed it must be a sequel to a film by the title of "Never Say Never", and by this logic that meant there was a lost bond film this rental store we were hitting up didn't have. This must have been why I never saw NSNA, simply out of commitment to the whole chronological order thing. The reason I feel confident in saying this is because I _do_ remember seeing Casino Royale (1967) at some point in that cycle of events as part of the franchise. I'm not sure when, but I definitely saw it.

[@robvangessel3766]

I haven't seen NSNA in a long time, but I remember enjoying it better than many Bond flicks. (Let's face it, they're ALL pretty silly). I thought it held solidly, but I if I saw it again now maybe I'd feel differently.

[@Treblaine]

"Masseuse" is a woman who gives massages, the term for a man who gives massages is "Masseur".

[@jillpole]

And frankly "massage therapist" is the correct term if you don't want to imply that there are sexual favours available for purchase as well.

[@Treblaine]

@@jillpole Be careful, in some jurisdictions "massage therapist" means a specific sort of medically accredited physiotherapy and "massage" is just a spa treatment where the massage practitioner doesn't advertising it as being to medically treat any specific medical condition.

[@jillpole]

@@Treblaine yep, that's the case in my jurisdiction, although the full designation is Registered Massage Therapist- and that's generally who spas use.

[@jillpole]

@@Treblaine although, thinking about it again, whatever you call the actual massage therapist, masseur is almost definitely appropriate for Bond himself.

[@sephirothii13]

you talked about the bike in movie it wasn't only a two years later that a tv show "Streethawk" came out with SO MANY cool stuff and makes this bike look SO sad.

[@RoyLake]

The "..What, from here?" gag is a direct rip from an episode of 1970's British sitcom Porridge with Ronnie Barker

[@jamesatkinsonja]

Production was poorly organised and the script was being re-written during filming. Even so, I do have a fondness for this film despite all it's flaws, particularly as a Connery fan. I do like that they acknowledge Bond's age [in contrast to the contemporary Moore films which largely ignored it] and Fatima Bush is very entertaining.

[@wearwolf2500]

The thing that strikes me most is that I don't think Bond confirms that Largo has the missiles until he dungeon scene when Largo just tells him that he has them. In Thunderball Bond shows up at Largo's place only being suspicious but then he finds out where the boat has been and then finds the plane and is like "Yeah, this is our guy" but here he's just like "I have a hunch". There's also no pay off to the fight in the clinic. In Thunderball Bond sees a picture of the pilot and is like "Hey, that's the guy I saw in the clinic, that's weird" but here I don't think he ever even finds out that the guy in the clinic was Domino's brother.

[@Dan.50]

I don't hate this movie. And Fatima Blush looks amazing!

[@PAClark101]

One thing that may be lost on the video game segment today is how video games were originally marketed as an alternative method of family entertainment. Adults as well as kids were included. When this film came out, adults were still being targeted to play them. Video games were fairly new. Even video game, Game Shows on TV featured adult players, not kids. As time went by, video games started to be associated with teens and kids. So to a modern eye, the scene in the casino may seem strange. But at the time, it would not be out of place. The advent of game consoles at home led to video games being viewed as more juvenile. That’s why you have this stigma today of my boyfriend plays video games and won’t act like an adult. In 1983 it would be perfectly fine for men and women to play them without too much stigma.

[@imonymous]

1:31:57 I may be mistaken, but wasn't the volume turned up in the dance studio? I assumed that Largo couldn't hear the alarm over the music.

[@almightykingbob85]

Yes you are correct.

[@nathanthomas5133]

The comedy writers Dick Clement & Ian La Frenais (who wrote lots of sitcoms including Porridge with Ronnie Barker) did uncredited writing on this film - interesting that the joke about peeing into a container from a distance & the piece about escaping by dressing as a boxer & his coach are both lifted directly from their own Porridge scripts. Maybe they were on a tight schedule & had to just recycle some of their old stuff to fill the gaps !

[@notme222]

I was WAY more put off by that massage scene than you guys were. Which is odd because I was more willing to forgive problematic things in earlier movies. They make it very clear that he enjoyed rubbing her which really accentuates the lack of consent. And her retroactive smile doesn't fix it for me.

[@justineelzak4285]

You're absolutely right her retroactive smile, to me, means the director/writing staff thought that this was all good and proper. This is the environment creeps like Weinstein started their careers in. (not an excuse for anything just an observation) His first film was 1979 this was 1983. This film was pretty skeevy even for Bond 'standards'.

[@SuperFlik]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this the 3rd attempt at an adaptation of the Thunderball book?

[@actioncom2748]

That weapon that count Lippy was wielding around, that cut the knife in half, was called a "tactical whip."

[@2nd3rd1st]

48:08 Did you now: there is no one-way glass/mirror, there's only one-way lighting

[@bradforddillman7671]

I consider myself a fairly major Bond fan, and I like this one a tad more than Octopussy. And maybe more than Thunderball. Probably thanks to Kraus Maria Brandauer and Barbara Carrera. Both are terrifically campy and over the top.

[@Yora21]

Can't disagree with you on the characters.

[@ricardocantoral7672]

I don't see this Largo falling into the category of camp because of the genuine emotional disturbance he projected.

[@jessehamm3573]

17:42 Not strictly a manner of monetary loss, Largo at that point, is explicitly warning Bond that, since the level of pain administered by the machine is tailored directly in proportion to the stakes of each session, a battle for the remaining continents of the world could result in a shock that could prove fatal.

[@roganzar]

I remember that game scene! Not the rest of the movie, but definitely that game scene.

[@lirazel6414]

Ah, 1983, a more innocent time, when an octopuses was a chimera of a cat and a cephlapod

[@Sientir]

I actually quite enjoyed this movie! (We have a DVD copy, so it was no problem for me to watch.) It was quite discontinuous in a number of spots, but it still managed to work for me. Wait...I think I missed that arcade scene (everything in the Arcade until Bond and Largo enter the room with the weird world domination game). o.O Like, I don't think it was present in our DVD copy somehow? Weiiiird... Bond caught onto Largo because of the matches that Pic? (Domino's brother) had hidden under his mattress that Bond found. - EDIT: OK, you guys got there!

[@almightykingbob85]

My dvd copy had the same issue.

[@boogerie]

To all those who badmouth this film: The day will come when you get a talk from your doctor and the scene about "eliminating free radicals" will take on new significance

[@CongaLineMonkey]

I'm sorry, but two hours of describing this movie makes it sound Oscar-worthy.

[@empath69]

They spent almost that long talking about the (first) Casino Royale film - whatever gives you the impression they're only saying GOOD things? :D

[@ricardocantoral7672]

Say what you want about the film but there is no denying the genius of Klaus Maria Brandauer as Largo. He brought a pathetic quality to the character that made his performance outstanding.

[@loadingreadyrun]

He’s not what I expected from “A Bond Villain” but he’s very good at being a bad guy

[@ricardocantoral7672]

@@loadingreadyrun I am so glad he defied the formula. Klaus was akin to Gert Fröbe's Goldfinger with the difference being the former pulling off a more nuanced and intense performance.