Peak Oil Chat: Charles Hall founder of EROI (Energy Return on Investment)

[@puppetperception7861]

Thank you all for educating us and spreading the information.

[@iverlofving5744]

Great chat! Found out about the 3 mile horizontal drilling. We're in trouble.

[@redcoltken]

This is awesome

[@un-Denial]

Very nice to see Dr. Charlie Hall. He's made a very important contribution to explaining how our world works. A core theme was why is it so difficult to spread awareness of falling EROI and it’s implications? Sad to see no mention of Dr. Ajit Varki's MORT theory which provides an explanation. Charlie himself may be a case study for MORT because he seems to be in denial of our destination despite understanding the predicament as well as anyone on the planet.

[@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigner]

I loved the spontaneous nature of this discussion. The prerecord and edits hide too much information to the biases of the editor. Thanks for the information.

[@AndriiZ]

yeah it was all live, no edits.

[@JonathanFrost]

Thanks for hosting. Get in touch for the radical sustainability candour event on Wednesday.

[@katiegreene3960]

The new movie homestead might be a must watch for this group

[@RyobiCEO]

Man, these conversations could REALLY benefit rom being pre recorded and edited.

[@katiegreene3960]

That's actually a great idea to highlight the best parts and make a more edited style video out of them

[@RyobiCEO]

@@leonsappl I know, but that still doesn't make it any less painful to watch.

[@RyobiCEO]

@@leonsappl fair enough, I don't enjoy sitting through endless bumbling and geezers unable to figure out their technology.

[@AndriiZ]

Are you volunteering?

[@AndriiZ]

Please, if you think it could benefit from editing, it's all CC-BY-SA, you can download it, edit it, and repost it, and I can post the edited version on here after.

[@EntropyJuggler]

Great discussion! @Andrii, is there a link for the John's 'asking difficult questions' workshop he mentioned at the end, please? Thanks.

[@katiegreene3960]

I'm curious also

[@AndriiZ]

@@katiegreene3960 @EntropyJuggler I'm not familiar with it, I'll ask him. Maybe we'll record it next time.

[@TwoDogSay]

Hi Andrii, thanks for letting us meet Charles and Simon, who presented new updates on their work and rest of the panel who all added very valuable insights. I think one journal paper you might have forgotten adding to the reading list, which Charles also recommended: Odum & Pinkerton (1955): Time's speed regulator: The optimum efficiency for maximum power output in physical and biological systems, American Scientist, Vol. 43, No. 2 (APRIL 1955), pp. 331-343 (13 pages) - can be read at JSTOR. (If I include the link the algorithm deletes my comment.) btw, this was an eye opener also for me for my doctoral work on urban scale modelling to include energy infrastructure.

[@sofdhelix57]

Energy and the Wealth of Nations is a great book.

[@thurstonhowellthetwelf3220]

Many thanks... would like title of the 1950s paper Dr Hall referred to..regards..

[@AndriiZ]

Odum & Pinkerton (1955): Time's speed regulator: The optimum efficiency for maximum power output in physical and biological systems, American Scientist, Vol. 43, No. 2 (APRIL 1955), pp. 331-343 (13 pages) - can be read at JSTOR. (

[@katiegreene3960]

It's obvious to me that peak oil is purposefully being silenced to not cause panic

[@katiegreene3960]

Andrii, you should start a x community based on this pod , and or a discord .

[@puppetperception7861]

That is a good idea

[@AndriiZ]

@@puppetperception7861 @katiegreene3960 There is a X messenger group "The Plan for Peak Resources", though our main group is a Facebook group here: facebook.com/groups/2213264857

[@AndriiZ]

Would be willing to volunteer to start such a community on X? Can tag me I'm @aizvo

[@katiegreene3960]

Andrii have you tried to use grok yet for the same things you use gpt ?

[@AndriiZ]

Yes I have, it's decent, but certainly less capable than GPT.

[@AndriiZ]

mostly only use Grok when GPT is down.

[@Mhm5213]

00:40:20 “gifts to gift to collaborative mutualist volunteer co-operators (owners)”

[@Mhm5213]

42:20 depends on how you map the infrastructure, constitution and protocol of the DLT. The distribution of energy from co-operators decreases as it scales….. the power would be natural inclined to distribute across the “grids”. Less energy from centralized systems and more energy from micro grid distribution.

[@Respectrogram]

Hi I recently subscribed to this channel, thank you for these great conversations. Depletion and drawdown need more attention. Is there a way to get access to the slides Charlie sent post chat, assuming he’s okay with them being publicly available? Or a listserv to join?

[@AndriiZ]

I include everything I receive from the presenters in the description.

[@robinschaufler444]

Questions for Simon: 1) How do you defend your city, especially from air or sea attacks? 2) What sort of taxes does your city have to pay to, say, the Chilean government? 3) Can your city make chips, computers, networking gear, etc., and if so, could it mirror the best of the internet? 4) If the city's digital network connects to the internet, how do you protect it from cyber attacks?

[@katiegreene3960]

There are newer ethanol plants in Iowa and Minnesota that use the corn silage or stalks vs the corn to ,are ethanol and they are breeding a type of sweetcorn that has a I think a higher sugar content in stalk than sugar cane .... so there might be a argument for getting the eroi of ethanol up higher in the near future. But it's been a while since I built a feed mill in Iowa near that plant about 10 years now.

[@AndriiZ]

in any case, if we were to use all the acreage we use for food, for producing ethanol, we would only produce something like 5-15% of the oil we use.

[@katiegreene3960]

@AndriiZ yes but the point is this is a much better way to produce ethanol and the high sugar content version could be a bit of a game changer . I don't recall what the eroei of sugar cane ethanol is ?

[@katiegreene3960]

Supposedly it's between 6-8

[@Arre2011]

It is more interesting to discuss possible solutions to a shortage of crude oil and to discuss alternative energies possible. And also: Could we re-organize our societies and use all our things by bring things that we don’t want to second hand stores? It should be normal to buy what we need second hand, instead of buying everything made new made newly from different feedstocks, and energy.

[@AndriiZ]

Yeah we talked about solutions in other chats, basically only viable option for the vast majority of the population is moving to rural areas and growing our own food forest communities. here is transition plan: lyis.ca/pfet/transition_plan.html There is absolutely no way of maintaining the mega urban metropolises we have now, they will all become scrapyards.

[@katiegreene3960]

Charlie needs to come back after reviewing Simon's papers ..... and maybe trying to get the guy on who went after Simon would be good too.

[@colleenmacinnis935]

How does one go about sourcing a thorium reactor.?

[@AndriiZ]

small modular reactors cost upwards of a hundred million dollars, so far only China has succeeded, but Europe and Canada are trying.

[@colleenmacinnis935]

Amazing discussion. Why is no one else microwaving rocks to needed minerals? Does this actually exist?

[@AndriiZ]

As Simon explained, it requires specialized equipment, because it produces electric arcs, would melt a regular microwave.

[@kevinmccormick7671]

please explain inflation and the relationship between energy and the money supply

[@AndriiZ]

Inflation and its relationship to energy and the money supply are interconnected through economic and resource dynamics. Here's an explanation that combines these elements: ### Inflation Inflation represents the rate at which the general level of prices for goods and services rises, eroding purchasing power. It is influenced by: 1. **Demand-pull inflation**: Occurs when demand in an economy outpaces supply. 2. **Cost-push inflation**: Driven by rising costs of production inputs, like energy and raw materials. 3. **Monetary inflation**: Arises from an increase in the money supply relative to economic output. ### Energy and Inflation Energy is a foundational input for all economic activity. Its availability and cost profoundly impact inflation: - **Energy as a Cost Driver**: Energy costs influence transportation, manufacturing, and service sectors. An increase in energy prices, such as oil or electricity, raises production costs, often passed on to consumers as higher prices (cost-push inflation). - **Energy Security**: Limited or unreliable energy supplies can constrain economic growth and lead to price volatility, further fueling inflation. ### Money Supply and Energy The money supply's relationship to energy hinges on the economic system's dependency on physical resources: 1. **Energy as a Basis for Economic Value**: Historically, economic growth has been tightly linked to energy consumption. When economies expand, energy demand rises. If the money supply grows without a corresponding increase in energy production, inflation can result as money chases limited goods. 2. **Energy and Monetary Policy**: Central banks often respond to energy-driven inflation by adjusting interest rates. However, this does not address the root energy constraint, potentially exacerbating economic instability. 3. **Resource Constraints**: If energy availability decreases or its extraction becomes more expensive due to depletion or geopolitical factors, it places limits on economic activity. In such cases, attempts to stimulate growth through increased money supply can lead to stagflation (inflation coupled with stagnant economic growth). In summary, energy availability acts as a fundamental constraint on economic activity. The interplay between energy, money supply, and inflation underscores the need for sustainable energy solutions and resource-efficient economic systems to mitigate inflationary pressures and ensure long-term economic stability.

[@kevinmccormick7671]

@@AndriiZ You have detailed the standard "economics" explanation quite well. However, since the creation of the Federal Reserve system in 1913, the U.S. has experienced nearly constant monetary inflation, with fluctuations, up to the present situation where a one dollar federal reserve note is worth only 2 cents of a 1913 dollar. Fossil fuel production increased throughout this time. Moreover, the "money supply" is increased primarily by commercial bank creation of bank debt and bank deposits, such as was seen in the 1920's stock market inflation and in several housing bubbles. The most recent housing (mortgage) bubble, which seems to ending now, has been followed by general price inflation. Basically a debt-based monetary system requires inflation to make debt payments possible. My second point is that renewable energy does not require money payment for fuel, which deprives the monetary system of an important source of money (debts and deposits) demand. The topic is perhaps worthy of a book, but these two points -- inflation despite rising fossil fuel production and renewable energy reducing opportunities for debt/deposit creation, seem to contradict the argument for stagflation based on declining fossil fuel production. Why is it not possible to have "economic growth" is a deflationary monetary scenario? I suggest your explanation is in the context of "economics" which disguises the inflationary requirements of a debt-based monetary system as economic growth. Basically, this contradicts the centrality of energy in the context of monetary inflation. I would say instead that the federal reserve system requires inflation and forcing this "monetary inflation" through the system creates the appearance of cost-push and demand-pull inflation.

[@kevinmccormick7671]

​@@AndriiZ You have given an excellent summary of standard economics regarding energy prices and inflation. I was looking for more specifics and empirical evidence. The Federal Reserve was created in 1913 and we have had inflation ever since. A federal reserve dollar today is worth about 2 cents of a 1913 dollar. We have inflation regardless of energy prices or availability. I would make the argument that linking inflation to energy or to "cost-push" or "demand-pull" is disguising the monetary inflation inherent in the federal reserve system.

[@antonyjh1234]

AT the eroi is it eroi divided by lifetime? Why is oil different to the others in this?

[@AndriiZ]

It's energy rate. My mic broke during that presentation so I couldn't moderate, will try to get John to present it again next time.

[@antonyjh1234]

@@AndriiZ is it energy rate divided by lifetime? The others seem to be close to this, oil is incorrect and should be higher? Any chance the clicky clacky keyboard isn't used while people are talking or at least muted it's hell for me with headphones to try and listen and you typing away in the back ground?

[@jesperandersson889]

washing machine new metahor

[@katiegreene3960]

All these great minds ... and they are not in the town square of x ... big mistake. I've noticed almost all of the people I like in the oil stuff are using old forms of comms. Do both please

[@katiegreene3960]

@leonsappl yeah I've noticed similar

[@AndriiZ]

not really sure how to do that. I tried posting these videos on X before, but only get 1 or 2 views.

[@katiegreene3960]

@AndriiZ keep trying .

[@katiegreene3960]

Maybe Canada will merge with the usa to make getting more oil simpler?

[@Ritastresswood]

I am sure, the US is hard at work to get at the oil and gas of the whole world.

[@AndriiZ]

It will not increase the amount of oil at all. Canada is already selling US the tar sands "oil" at a loss, wheras China is willing to pay full price. Americans are massively spoiled, with the lowest oil prices in the world.

[@katiegreene3960]

@AndriiZ agreed , I'm just thinking more in simplicity of industry , pipelines, exploration, people infrastructure and more.

[@foresthappel1543]

Looking at all the endless and insane wars in the Middle East...often fueled by the West...what happens geopolitically when billions of people start to starve to death? It's easy to see how wars could break out in Chili, blowing up the thorium reactors and then using the radioactive material to make dirty bombs. In a growingly chaotic world, nuclear materials will be hard to secure . I do appreciate Michauxs alucidation of the problems with traditional mining for the so called Green Transition.

[@AndriiZ]

Thorium can't be used for making bombs. You are thinking about traditional uranium/plutonium reactors.

[@colleenmacinnis935]

I love older wiser people. I’m also older and wiser but the group seems like the man’s club. Is there not any other diverse groups available to your group. Your speaking of this great future but as a photo is seems like the past.

[@AndriiZ]

Not sure what you mean? This isn't a DEI group. This is for experts and and qualified people that know what they are talking about. If there is some person you would like to recommend, we can have them on in the future.

[@colleenmacinnis935]

@@AndriiZ I’m quite sure there are many qualified people of all backgrounds. The group has chosen to have only others who look as they look. They are missing out on the amazing voices and perspectives. It has nothing to do with DEI. It’s lacking the breadth of a choir in favor of a unanimous perspective. Even if I agree with the perspective.

[@AndriiZ]

@@colleenmacinnis935 The group is based on who has relevant expertise that is willing to attend, it has nothing to do with their appearance. If you have any suggestions of someone you would like on the show, please feel free to recommend someone you know personally, so can get them to come on.

[@skeetorkiftwon]

Changing the method or efficiency of the acquisition of materials is still under unity. Period. Lasers and shielded microwaves and magically isolated hydrogen (when the cheapest and most employed method (99%) of isolating hydrogen, at a loss, is natural gas methane reforming process) are all pipe dreams. This Simon guy would add extra steps, with extra loss, by adding useless complexity and his ENTIRE premise is the continued acquisition of raw materials for continued high energy consumption per capita. This nets no positive change.

[@barrycarter8276]

Sorry to say Andrii even with your guest the esteemed Charles Hall credited with invention of EROI, found this discussion strained and laborious with nothing new revealed, well not for someone who takes a deep interest in the demise of Oil and has regularly viewed Peak Oil Chats, but for goodness sake don’t loose Simon Michaux as he’s the only one providing any entertainment in what is a serious subject, eg life without Oil, followed by Gas, Coal, trees and lastly anything that humanity can find that burns🤔

[@AndriiZ]

Not sure what you mean, this isn't really "entertainment" it's education.

[@barrycarter8276]

​@@AndriiZ Not sure you read all my comment Andrii, as I did say it was a serious subject. Education, learning something New, should be fun, who wants to to hear the same things laboriously repeated, just saying🤔