LOKI: Is Free Will Real, Or Part of the TVA's Plan? | Matrix Connections Revealed, Marvel Philosophy

Loki is a fantastic look at a new corner of the Marvel Cinematic Universe: the YVA. But amid the mischief and time travel shenanigans, the show is asking a deeper question: are we truly free, or is the future already written. We explore the show's philosophical questions about free will vs determinism.
And we explain how this connects to the philosophies of Tenet, Terminator, the Matrix, and many more.
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Written and Edited by Pavel Terehovsky (pavel8866.wixs...) ( / @alexluthor4057 )
Hosted by Ryan Arey ( / ryanarey )
#Loki #FreeWill

[@ScreenCrush]

What's your favorite thing about Loki so far?

[@kris_tineann]

First

[@TexasToni11]

Tom and Owen's chemistry, and im really interested in whatever Mobius' deal is

[@JF-nb8yd]

Your mom

[@jaiyadav5557]

Lady loki ,enchantress whoever she is......

[@capcorn7872]

Time keepers if they even exist

[@FTNChicken]

Can't tell what makes me more excited: new episodes of Marvel TV or a week's worth of breakdowns between every new episode

[@sleinadb]

I know. Sometimes I'm thinking I need to get the show watched so I can then watch all the Easter egg and theory videos. LOL

[@BobBunch-ownyourlife]

your breakdowns are the best........ and yes....... this is your mom

[@juniormynos9457]

😂Epic

[@wolfbro82]

I got that reference

[@singingacapellasongsmusicc3205]

No, my mom gave me a house and a nice new Ford, Howard. The banks need to get rid of their impairment based laws. Since they keep breaking Constitutional Laws, I created the " ANTI - TAXERS" Constitutional Party, basically, we are against unfair, discriminatory taxes, The Ohio and Columbus based .M.O.L.U.C.H. housing charters since they discriminated against the population, except that one the north west side, and against women and a third of adult children and disabled or ill in the communuty, as well as a quarter of the foster child popukation, and support programs that discriminate the "Best and Brighest" on religious beliefs and past presidencies, which 20 years ago was illegal and to stop unnecessary taxing to genocide mixed Israeli , native americans, African americans, and minimize the illegal double charging and illegal contracts and bribery scams in Franklin County, OHIO as well as using creative groups and companies and promoting crime and terrorism to pay unnecessary debts by illegal contests back to the already super wealthy and for the casinos and the monopolies of all races, genders, LGBTQ ( not very big on it myself, but some have good cases.), religious, to end unreasonable employment and taxes and ownership and healthcare discriminations by educational reunions , churches, etc. and other groups, includes all American governmental philosophy groups.

[@singingacapellasongsmusicc3205]

Here's your Dad. Howard, which one Roy or Walt? No more black mice in his house, the 7 ft. one concerns me.

[@ChiripaAzul]

This is the best KZbin comment ever

[@BigReviewMan]

Free will is very expensive, good thing Loki has all that Asgardian gold

[@caroline10081]

Which was zapped off him by that disrobing robot. Later Loki finds out that the TVA uses gold for paving their sidewalks.

[@saviorselfX29]

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Sacred Timeline: everyone is acting like it is a single strand, a unified thread that allows for absolutely no variation whatsoever. This would, of course, eliminate any possibility of free will. More likely, the Sacred Timeline is a rope made of many threads, where each iteration of time (as time is an infinite loop, as Mobius explains when showing Loki the reel of his life) has small variations that do NOT splinter off into potential Nexus Events. It’s only when the changes become severe enough that a thread splits off from the rope that it needs to be clipped. Or, to use a different metaphor, the Sacred Timeline is a river: the powerful current allows for self-correcting, and tiny variations (free will) are merely pebbles that do not alter its flow. It’s only when someone disrupts that current that the TVA needs to step in. The reason Steve and Tony going back in time to retrieve the Tesseract from earlier in the timeline didn’t create a Nexus Event is that it didn’t change the end result: they still ended up with a Space Stone, and they still returned it to its rightful place when they were done. No change to the river’s course or flow.

[@mordercainear9573]

Yes they said the same thing in Agents of Shield when they time travel l, creating small ripples is fine because it doesn't change the flow, but tossing a big stone and creating a huge wave does

[@DuTubeable]

I believe the multiverse is the natural order and the sacred timeline was created and enforced by the timekeepers for complete control and dominance. Loki's main focus is to gain control over his fate so he can alter his death by the hand of Thanos.

[@SingTingz31]

@@mordercainear9573 that would wipe AoS out of the sacred timeline after what they did in Season 7

[@corbingray9330]

So would those separate strands that make the sacred timeline possibly be different multiverse timelines? That would explain how there are different versions of loki and they all end up being aprehended by the TVA because the timeline is basically the same for all of the multiverse.

[@toyo_r]

its like asking miss minutes, if she is recorded or alive :)

[@lokiheimdallsen]

I have a theory I wanted to share about how the sacred timeline might actually work (and creating a youtube chanel no one would watch seemed like too much work so I just put that here in a comment no one will read): At first I was really bothered by the lack of free will the concept of sacred timeline dictated in advance by the time keepers implied. Then, two elements got me thinking: 1) the very existence of variants shouldn't be possible if everything is planned from the beginning 2) If everything is planned, the timeline should just look like a straight line and not have curves So, after episode 1 and a few hours of overthinking it, my opinion was the following one : there is an Ideal timeline planed by the time keepers (which would be materialised as a straight line) and the goal is for the TVA to get the actual timeline as close as possible to the Ideal timeline while preventing the creation of branch timelines and what makes the actual timeline diverge slightly is the free will. The idea is that the timeline can change as long as the change is not too drastic. The second episode provides us with an element that support this theory (or is it just confirmation bias?) : when Loki looks at the ragnarok file, there is the mention "displaced by 000:000:002:162", and that, in my opinion means that the event did not happen as planned, but, spoiler alert for Thor Ragnarok, Ragnarok did happen, but the divergence it creates is not enogh to require the TVA to intervene. So in conclusion i would say that the TVA allows the actions on the timeline more than they dictate them and there is room for free will in the MCU as long as it doesn't deviate much from the plan, so I would say it's partially deterministic Thank you for reading this except if you just read this one sentence. Sorry for my english, I am not a native speaker. If there is some grammar nazi, just go ahead, as a french I'll probably just surrender as we do

[@mw5692]

Yes, i was dissapointed too, at first, when i learned about the „sacred timeline”. But after a while, i came to the same conclusion as you, and it makes total sense. I never expected Loki, the series, to be so entertaining :) Keep it up, Marvel!

[@perceivedvelocity9914]

Well, the TVA did not create the MCU. For lack of a better term they are not God. They have the technology to play God. The TVA has chosen a timeline that is best for them. Their version of the Golden Path is not what's good for the universe. It's what's good for the management of the TVA. Free will is real in the MCU. Every choice leads to a different Branch timeline. The TVA judges what choices would benefit them the most.

[@lokiheimdallsen]

@@perceivedvelocity9914 Actually, regarding your second paragraph, I was thinking that they let the event unfold unless there is a significant deviation from the plan that would be why there is a displacement coefficient on the ragnarok file. For your first paragraph I had also had an explanation but I really think yours is better. I suppose we'll have to wait and see if we had the right answers

[@glyn420]

Well written, and I tend to agree with your synopsis.

[@justsaying8358]

@@perceivedvelocity9914 yep, there's free will as long as it doesn't interfere with TVA's plans (which we don't know yet)

[@SacredCowStockyards]

The existence of the TVA neatly explains why only one of Strange's 14 million outcomes succeeded. There must be a ton of timelines where Thor goes for the head, Vision's stone is destroyed before Thanos has the time stone and can rewind it, they get the gauntlet off and can successfully keep Thanos from using it (just getting it off isn't enough)... But if the TVA just resets all of those timelines (which they would, because they want Thanos to destroy the Stones), then that forcibly only leaves one possible winning outcome: the one they chose.

[@eternallylearning2811]

In seeing it that way maybe Steven sent loki on the general direction to destroy the TVA and considered that the only way they can truly win.

[@otaviooliveirajpn]

The tesseract literally went to him, it's not like he actively tried to get it. That should be the textbook description of what it's meant to happen. He was so much meant to get it, that several things happened so the tesseract slipped right into the hand of someone who would definitely use it.

[@NOWABO]

Hulk should be arrested for being too angry at the stairs.

[@GabrielSouza-ie1tt]

That's real, if the crime Loki committed was just being himself(The God of Mischief), then Loki shouldn't even exist. And I think that will be the conclusion the Time Keepers will come to at the end of the show, they'll see two versions of Loki acting against their power, and realizing that they could gather even more versions of themselves the Time Keepers will decree that Loki must not exist in the Sacred Timeline because he is a threat to reality.

[@professorx3060]

What if Tesseract was supposed to get knocked to Thor's feet? He would take it and take Loki to Asgard. No alternate timeline. But instead it gets to Loki.

[@aslasl-rp3ol]

Just wait until Loki finds out he's actually portrayed by an actor and if that actor makes a mistake they cut scene and go again. Resetting the timeline caused by the variant actors mistake.

[@pedrotalons1422]

That would be some rick and morty shit, pretty interesting.

[@RickClark58]

Free will is a subject I have examined for years and I have found that most people have no idea what free will actually is and how it works. The common idea is that free will is not possible in a deterministic universe. In fact, free will is always possible regardless of determinism or not. So, what is free will? Free will is the ability to freely choose from at least two alternatives without any coercion from an outside force on the agent in the making of the choice. As long as an agent isn't forced into a choice, even if that choice is predetermined by a higher power, the agent has expressed free will. You can verify this hypothesis by looking at the result of the choice. If determinism forced a choice, that is the agent was in fact coerced into making a choice by the fact that determinism exists, then it would be evident in the result. The Time Lizards exist outside of time since they are the ones controlling the timeline (if they actually exist). They would know that Joe would go left at an intersection because they can see the whole timeline, and see the result of every choice. Joe reaches the intersection and goes left. Can we determine that he was coerced into doing so by looking at the result? The answer is no. We see the result, but not the mechanism of the choice that determined the result. That is the problem. Determinism says he will go left, but it doesn't give us any clue on how that choice was made. The Sacred Timeline is deterministic if it is a fixed timeline (and that really is the question that needs an answer). Fixed timelines cannot be changed, no matter how you may try to change the timeline. A fixed timeline is deterministic because the result of every choice has already been made throughout the whole timeline. That is the definition of a fixed timeline. Everything that can happen has already happened and cannot be changed. However, that says nothing about the mechanism of the choices and therefore cannot speak to how those choices were made and whether an agent was free in making those choices. As long as there is freedom of choice, even if the result of every choice is predetermined, then free will has been expressed. To most people, this seems like a contradiction, however, it is the nature of choice. How far does choice extend? Does choice end at the act of choosing or does it extend to the results of the choice? That is the key point to understand. As I have already shown, choice does not extend to the result of the choice of the agent. Choice, and therefore free will, only extends to the act of choosing and no farther. When Joe reaches the intersection, he can go left or right. We already know he goes left since that is predetermined. However, when we examine the actual choice we see that Joe is not under any coercion to choose left over right, he simply chooses left and his free will has been expressed. Even in a fully deterministic universe, as long as the agents are not forced into making choices, they have free will. Even in the Sacred Timeline, there is free will. The Time Lizards know this which is why they have pushed this Big Brother agenda so hard. The Sacred Timeline is by nature, unstable, otherwise, there wouldn't be a TVA in the first place. The Sacred Timeline itself cannot be changed as it fixed (supposedly), but this instability creates the many timelines that naturally branch from the Scared Timeline. This instability is inherent in the Sacred Timeline because the Time Lizards cannot actually control free will in the timeline. The multiverse is the natural state of the universe because of free will, and they are trying to impose an artificial restraint on the universe that the universe itself is trying to break free from. It isn't just the variants that want to be free of the Time Lizards' manipulation; the universe itself is trying to get back to its natural state. As Thanos said, it (the multiverse) is inevitable.

I don't usually stop to read this much of a response to a video in YT, but since I had a coffee at hand, I did and I do not regret. Yes, your analysis is impeccable, it is true that people are addressing both free will and determinism as a same concept, while is not. I get your point that free will can be narrowed to the small act of choosing under no pressure at the very exact moment of doing so, not acounting for any sort of previous manipulation in the subject's mind or in it's available options and that determinism is just the story telling of what happened, period. Like you said, if destiny was such, and was prewritten, there should be no need of a TVA, so that thing of "everything is written and we, the TVA, say so" is just messing propaganda. Wherever a police service is needed, it is definitely because a certain type of order is missing.

[@sigmathanos5030]

damn

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@sigmathanos5030 There is a TLDR at the bottom of this text I think the show is about how free will is an Illusion, nothing makes sense, and everything that has happened up to this point in the MCU is a lie and meaningless. This is best shown through the TVA, Time Keepers and Sacred Timeline, as well as the Infinity stones having little weight and power on that level This honestly invalidates Spider-Man’s whole philosophy of “Great Power comes Great Responsibility” because in Civil War (movie) he told Ironman “When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen? They happen because of you.” Obviously this is referencing Uncle Ben and how it was Peter’s fault for not being able to protect him. If Free Will is an Illusion and these Time Gatekeepers really exist then Peter was not really responsible and it was not his fault for losing Uncle Ben because Society was an asshole towards Peter Parker and the Time Keepers predetermined it so Peter becomes the great hero Spider-Man. TLDR: The Show is about free will being an Illusion and everything else that has happened to this point is one big thing existential and meaningless lie through the Sacred Timeline structure and everything being predetermined by pure evil and dominating forces such as the Time Keepers. This also invalidates Spider-Man’s Philosophy as a whole.

[@crunchytaco7734]

“The same way people are hardwired to like food..... and Betty White” 😂 😂 😂 That line got me!!!!!

[@morephatmusic9728]

My favorite thing is how it expands the scope of the MCU by focusing in on the smallest of details. This show is really like a longer, detailed mirror reflection of the conversation between the Architect and Neo. The Architect was analysing why the 7th variant was behaving differently from the 1st six anomalies. And Neo was processing the concepts of choice and free will.

[@kristinhartland7565]

If Loki's theory about doing things in a doomed timeline with no effects is correct, wouldn't Mobias be able to ride a jet ski on a beach that would soon be destroyed by some natural event? This could maybe be how they get to ride a jet ski at the end of the show like Ryan predicted.

[@milagros104]

Thank you for keeping it simple. I love the MCU, I don’t have any knowledge of the comic books... thank you!

[@bird6948]

That cap scene from winter solider get me hyped rn 9:55

[@godadoptedme]

I love how Ryan does as the variant Loki asked in episode 2 ,and calls her Randy

[@waverectifier]

Loki is gonna find a way to come to our world. I mean there is a variant called Tom

[@cakeissex]

Tom riddle

[@aahelikoner8034]

Yeah... 😄

[@ScreenCrush]

What's Loki really about?

[@jaiyadav5557]

Chaos to order

[@leemavundla]

Candice

[@carbine090909]

Metaphors and parables about the Triune God, described by a lesser created being, who of course resents the true Triune God. TVA is a Triune Virtual God.

[@prashantsharma8308]

It's about...... your mom

[@morephatmusic9728]

Self reflection (figuratively and literally), forgiveness and Redemption. And also my mom;)

[@ronenkohn2762]

I am LOVING all your videos on this series. Thank you for the excellent analysis!

[@ScreenCrush]

How do you think Loki is going to end?

[@jaiyadav5557]

MMM riding a jet ski

[@morephatmusic9728]

We will finlly get an explanation to Lok's last words to Thor before Thanos killed Loki's duplicate. It will make sense why he chose those words.

[@bluevelvet9885]

Multiverse will break

[@coryandrum]

One of the loki's die. When one betrays the other, but for a good reason so its not like the other betrayals.

[@thomasjellinek4987]

Before there is free choice, there is first an idea. An idea starts from within and it is the willpower that gives the idea extra power, creating free choice: the old concept vs the new one Who has the authority to give ideas to everyone? That one has the real power over the future.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@Thomas Jellinek There is a TLDR at the bottom of this text I think the show is about how free will is an Illusion, nothing makes sense, and everything that has happened up to this point in the MCU is a lie and meaningless. This is best shown through the TVA, Time Keepers and Sacred Timeline, as well as the Infinity stones having little weight and power on that level This honestly invalidates Spider-Man’s whole philosophy of “Great Power comes Great Responsibility” because in Civil War (movie) he told Ironman “When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen? They happen because of you.” Obviously this is referencing Uncle Ben and how it was Peter’s fault for not being able to protect him. If Free Will is an Illusion and these Time Gatekeepers really exist then Peter was not really responsible and it was not his fault for losing Uncle Ben because Society was an asshole towards Peter Parker and the Time Keepers predetermined it so Peter becomes the great hero Spider-Man. TLDR: The Show is about free will being an Illusion and everything else that has happened to this point is one big thing existential and meaningless lie through the Sacred Timeline structure and everything being predetermined by pure evil and dominating forces such as the Time Keepers. This also invalidates Spider-Man’s Philosophy as a whole.

[@ClaudiaS_]

Free will IS real, but every time someone chooses something that leads to an alternate timeline, it's removed. The sacred timeline isn't full of people who didn't have choices, it's just that it's only inhabited by people who only made the "right" choices. I see it as if you were going through a hallway with, let's say 3 doors, 2 lead to death and 1 the hallway keeps going. Nothing tells you which door to choose, you choose it yourself. But the only one who reaches the end of the hallway is the one that chose the right door every time. Also, choices that have no effect on the sacred timeline don't create variant timelines. Lt's say you choose a Coke instead of a Pepsi with lunch. If it doesn't have any cascading universe altering consequences, the TVA doesn't need to intervene.

[@QandDRecordings]

This is my thought exactly. To me, it feels like a very apt critique of many social power structures, where people with power create a system where it’s impossible for certain kinds of people to succeed, and then use their failures as evidence that system is correct for punishing them. It seems absurd that this variant of Loki is deemed guilty for the crime of merely existing, and yet that happens every day to people in the real world, as well.

[@ClaudiaS_]

@@QandDRecordings I'm becoming more and more convinced that Loki isn't even a variant. Because if he were, what would even be the point of taking him to the TVA? If his actions are necessary to maintain the sacred timeline, then he's there because he's "supposed to be" and him being berated by the TVA and called a variant is also necessary to push him into fulfilling whatever is written in the Sacred Timeline.

[@lordofsinner2224]

Loki was arrested not because he escape with the cube, it because of what he going to do in that future.

[@luizsaviolara]

Man, you and the Sunday guys are above the rest. Keep on truckin!

[@scottpierson4627]

What I find interesting is that if the Sacred Timeline and what we’ve seen this far up to Endgame was “supposed to happen”, then the two versions of Thanos each stating that they were “inevitable” actually puts him on a different light, because he IS correct. Even though what he did was horrible, it was inevitable. This is what is great about the TV shows. They’re helping fill gaps (intended or going back to make things more sense like WandaVision puts Age of Ultron in a completely different category).

[@daynaa8828]

Great review (again). I enjoyed the conversation between Mobius and Loki that was reminiscent of a “religious vs atheist” discussion. Looking forward to seeing how the storyline develops.

[@rileycantreid6214]

One question i have is isn't Loki supposed to look like a Frost Giant in the TVA because his look is just an illusion which counts as magic so maybe the TVA doesn't fully remove magic

[@carbine090909]

Ooooh, good point!!

[@morephatmusic9728]

Really good point!

[@tiawilliams5690]

Is it an illusion? I never fully understood this. He didn't know he was a frost giant and grew up looking like an Asgardian so it wasn't something he did.

[@morephatmusic9728]

Remember what Thor said about Asgardian technology being so advanced, it seems like magic? Well, what if it is the same with the TVA? They can obviously block the abilities of super powered individuals, but that doesn't mean that magic doesn't work there. There could be power dampeners that the TVA can use with targeted precision. I would be curious to see if the TVA could do this to Wanda. A good question is if the Time Keepers are able to use their abilities. This could be a scenario like Wanda was taught: in a given space, only the witch who cast the runes can use magic. The same may apply to the space that the TVA occupies.

[@morephatmusic9728]

@@tiawilliams5690 even if he had nothing to do With the illusion, according to the TVS rules, that illusion should not work. I think this is a subtle hint that the TVA is basically in dark like Loki about what is really going on. Or that it's all a lie to keep Loki in check for some reason.

[@SirKnight1096]

It's actually stupid. If the Avengers were "supposed to do what they did" then they were meant to knock the Tesseract by Loki's feet for him to pick it up and he do what he did. Which was also meant to happen. No such thing as variants, at least by their logic so far.

[@bebopman5]

I reckon that they’re rebuttal would be that he shouldn’t’ve picked it up, and that once the ‘23 Avengers failed in stealing it, the ‘12 Avengers were supposed retrieve it and Loki would continue on his regular path. However, with Loki being who he was, how could anything else had happened. He’s just going to sit there and watch his out slide in front of him and not take it. The TVA gets fishier every episode.

[@morephatmusic9728]

What if he was always meant to pick it up? Has anyone else caught on to the fact that the only two characters who we saw on screen give Thanos an infinity stone are the only two characters who are involved directly with time travel? And both, at some point in the past, saw or knew about a future where Thanos lost after getting all the stones. I don't think that this is a coincidence.

[@cheshirekat8273]

Not if the TVA is evil. If so, then they only declared this Loki a "variant" because his actions would lead to events that the Time Keepers don't want. It's not that the possibility of Loki picking up the Tesseract wasn't supposed to happen, it's that its consequences aren't wanted by the Keepers. Remember that what "is supposed to happen" only means "what the Time Keepers want". ... Did you notice that, in the 1st episode, the TVA agents reset the Timeline and, in doing so, disintegrate the 5 Mongolians standing there? Or how the TVA agents don't care about the people in the shelter?

[@caroline10081]

Maybe the Timekeepers did not like the timeline where Loki escapes 2012 so they pruned that branch every time it happens. They were fine with Loki going to prison and all that followed. They don't have to justify their choices. They only have to say it's to preserve the Sacred Timeline (which is something they defined). The problem is actually Mobius saving this Variant and giving him a job. Was that supposed to happen? They are outside the Sacred Timeline now.

[@BillyLeigh]

It's all part of the Dr Strange prediction when he gave the time stone to Thanos

[@VanAlexi]

I played Bioshock, I know what will make this all make sense…Lighthouses.

[@wandab3843]

Whenever someone calls something "sacred" its a flag.

[@carbine090909]

Unless it's actually sacred

[@davidstrangeDMC]

True ...are way or no way.... also once they reset the time line the power of that Tesseract would go back to its normal timeline . which I find funny that a lot of KZbin Channels didn't pick that up. It makes a loud chiming noise when it slides across the floor but the one they get to the TVA and that clerk bare hands it doesn't make a sound .(remember the last person that barehanded the tesseract yeah didn't work out so well for Him ) so that's another thing it shows you that when the TVA wants to they probably killed so many "Variants" who found Infinity Stones when they" weren't supposed too" LMAO . Like if you where on your way to work and tripped over a Infinity Stone and you go to pick it up? oh boy your getting pruned lol!

[@msquared9605]

The sacred Jedi texts!!

[@mellmag3723]

Things are only as sacred as people make them to be. So how sacred is its sacredness.

[@jorgecarbajal8076]

3:50 It’s an oversimplification of events, but yes.

[@morephatmusic9728]

Another twist could be that the variant Loki figured out a way to warn himself ( like by using the time stone I'm sure he stole from the clerk's desk drawer), so Infinity War Loki was prepared for his death at Thanos' hands. Let's look at what Variant Loki figured out: "Randy" was hiding in timelines that were doomed. Because these were doomed timelines, anything happening before the disaster would not affect that time line. So, even if Loki was always meant to die on that ship, wouldn't he be able to get away with duplication casting? He would still "die" in that moment and the story would continue. Thanos would still end up with Tesseract and win in InfinityWar, but still go on to lose against the Avengers after the time heist in Endgame. To anyone who was observing the timeline, nothing would appear out of the ordinary because everything appeared to playout as it should have. It's not like the God of Mischief has never faked his death. And ironically, Thanos would turn out to be right when he said, "No more resurrections." because Loki wouldn't have actually died and there are countless versions of him across the multiverse. Loki's last words about Thanos never becoming a god and that him and Thor would see the Sun again make more sense. And even more ironic, if anything I came up with is close to right, is the fact that twice in the same story, a character gave Thanos an infinity stone because they had knowledge of the future where Thanos doesn't win in the end. Marvel is known for mirroring characters, details, villains, scenes and character arcs, this theory makes a little bit of sense, (I hope).

[@WigantX]

I'm amazed I'm the first to like your comment. I have a inner conflict with it though, because I'd like to learn that Loki (the "official" one, not the variants) is still alive somewhere after Thanos snapped his neck. But I'd also like to keep that Loki dead, so his death wouldn't look meaningless: when they show Loki dying and coming back to life over and over again, they make his deaths something you shouldn't worry about anymore, because you already know he'll find a way to get away with it "for all times. Always"

[@morephatmusic9728]

@@WigantX Loki's death wouldn't be meaningless because he wasn't supposed to die. His death doesn't carry the same weight as Black Widow's. Her sacrifice was really out of love for her family and to clear the red from her ledger. Loki's "sacrifice " came off like him getting the last word and not like he was really trying to clear the red from his ledger. I would be disappointed if Marvel brought Natasha back. But Loki coming back feels sort of "inevitable ". :) thanks for your comment! It is really well explained. And to be honest, I'm conflicted, too. The one instance where I want 2017 Loki to be gone, at least for a while, is if he is replaced for a spell (pun intended) by one of the variants, like Randy!

[@pheakdeykao]

Finally somebody make a Loki connection to the matrix 👏 Finally I'm not the only one 😂

[@carpemkarzi]

My favourite thing about Loki? Yes.

[@Luke.Raistrick]

Do u realise how close this theory actually was, insane

[@danielkimoto1008]

Loki wasn’t supposed to pick up the stone, a guard was supposed to kick it out of the way, Thor was supposed to notice it and keep it. So Tony stark and ant man still couldn’t get it and they’d still need to go back in time to the 70s. It’s not a binary either Loki gets it or future Tony/Ant man get it. 2012 Thor/Avengers could still get the tesseract and that could be what was “supposed to happen”

[@danitho]

Then why aren't the people who didn't do what they were supposed to keep him from getting the tesseract also get in trouble? 🤔

[@jameyhogg1386]

Can you explain how the Doctor Strange dimension with Dormamoo which exists out of time fits into the time logic of Loki

[@beningram1811]

What music is playing in the background at 9:24? Sounds a lot like something from Path of Exile. I'm specifically remembering waiting for races to start, and listening to that music.

[@nitot100]

I don’t skip ads because Your content is so good. 💯🎉

[@ThePyrojen]

you must have free will or you wouldn't have nexus events. the TVA wouldnt need to stop them if they are already part of the plan

[@coryandrum]

you don't want the people working for you to know that, they might start wonder what fish really are.

[@squishycacti]

For like 3 months I thought I was subscribed. You kept showing up on my recommended page so I kept watching. Turns out I wasn’t subbed until now.

[@Johnroz38]

This is so awesome, I was just talking about a lot of this. Totally sharing this video.

[@LopezBOT90]

When Loki said that thing that other actor said in that other movie makes total sense when those words are similiar to other words said in those movies. It's all so clear now!!!

[@shawncarnes9471]

My humble theory… New time lines are constantly spawning from every decision just like standard multiverse theory. However, the vast majority of these branching timelines harmlessly collapse back into the “Sacred” timeline without incident or intervention by the TVA. A “Nexus Event” is something special that is created by a powerful Variant, or especially influential decision or event. The inclusion of an Infinity Stone automatically creates a Nexus Event due to their integral connection to the Universe. Only these special Nexus Events have the potential to Red Line before collapsing.

[@ThanoryTheDad]

I cannot fathom a timeline where the tesseract lands on Loki's foot and he doesn't grab it. So Hulk smashing Tony with the door is variant. So was it Hulk or Tony that "clocked in late for work"

[@tiarnanhamill3027]

The way I see it, it always lands at Loki's feet (or close by) and the anomaly in this loop of the timeline is that he sees it, and decides to pick it up. Sort of like a program glitch. So like 9 times out of 10 the program (which is the flow of time) runs perfectly, but there's occasionally small glitches where something happens differently, and that's how we get Time Variants.

[@technocore1591]

Why would an accurate record of my future decisions negate the fact that when I made those decisions, I made them freely?

[@ianalexander7662]

I think the minute you have time travel, the idea of time cops becomes inevitable. The main reason is once a civilization gets to that point, they're pretty powerful and the last thing they would want is to have themselves erased out of existence by some other group of time travelers. For example, most people fall into the trap of thinking Admiral Janeway did something good by going back in time to keep Voyager from having to take 17 years to get back to the Alpha Quadrant. Well she's not. She's NO DIFFERENT than Captain Annorak and Captain Braxton. Because she had a case of the sads that her crew didn't get a Disney ending, she altered the timeline that was about 2 decades than the point where she jumps back to. Two decades(ish) of universal history. 20 years of people dying, being born, becoming heroes, becoming villains. All the stuff of life. All where wiped away by Admiral Janeway, abetted by Captain Janeway and her crew. If anything, as the end credits of the episode Endgame roll, the time-ship Relativity should be seen warping in to restore the timeline. And it's a cop out to say, "Oh it had to happen this way" because having 20 years of universal history wiped out as part of the normal order of time seems a bit paradoxical. Of course there is also the conceit of the TVA is it's so centric to Earth AND our galaxy. Perhaps the TVA looks like it does because to people of Earth, that's what they see. In reality, Loki should probably see it differently as would a Kree or a Xandarian. Because unless Earth is THE Nexus point of our reality, the idea that the TVA isn't a universal organization is sort of laughable. If you were an advance race (say the Kryptonians) who had the 'combined knowledge of the 28 known galaxies' wouldn't you try to ensure some punk planet in a galaxy far, far away doesn't wipe out the last 20 years of your existence? Of course you would! Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is as you get closer to the end of time, the big power brokers of that time are going to have a vested interest to protect the past which allowed them to be where they are at that point. Because once you figure out time-travel (and Tony did it pretty easily) then it stands to reason you have all sorts of people, all throughout the universe mucking with time. This would indeed cause a "Multiverse of Madness"

[@jackieanderson9408]

Calling someone a "cosmic mistake" is cruel

[@QandDRecordings]

Free will still exists for everyone in the MCU, but the TVA have essentially created determinism by fiat; they’re not controlling people’s choices, they’re just eliminating any versions of people who make the “wrong” choices. They’ve taken an infinite multiverse where all possible things have happened, picked the version they like best, and removed the rest from existence. So choose any character, let’s say Thor; he has free will, all of his choices have been his own, it’s just that the version that exists in the MCU just happens to be the one that has made these particular set of choices. There were other Thors that made other choices, but they and the splinter branches they created were immediately pruned.

[@sleinadb]

I find it interesting that Loki has to examine free will in this show because his main goal as a villain was to rule...and he made the big speech about how freedom is b.s.

[@luxagregor4715]

Always thought the multiverse war was a lie from the Timekeepers. Guess we will have to see! Feel like we might see a wizard of oz type curtain reveal for who the timekeepers really are

[@nathnull8523]

I feel like this video kinda misses the point. No one is arguing free will doesnt exist. It's that it doesnt exist for all intents and purposes. It would appear that everyone in the history of time has expressed their free will to act as dictated by the sacred timeline because if the hadnt theyd have been melted until they did. I'd love to see the EFAP boys do this video.

[@JinGalactica]

The fact we have the freedom to think we live freely does mean we're truly free? I mean, Loki and Lady Loki are fighting for that it seems.

[@marcusnavarro957]

TVA has one job, make sure mutants are not made, especially fantastic 4, the branches are mutants being created... Kang controls this timeline to ensure he could never lose

[@MarcioHuser]

Maybe the pre-determinated path for the timeline was for the Tesseract to be found by Thor and co., forcing Tony and Steve to travel to the 70's regardless. BUT having LOKI taking it and escaping was NOT on the "TVA" plan :)

[@ruchikhera7013]

But they were all crowding Tony....thor gave him the shock to live

[@MarcioHuser]

@@ruchikhera7013 Yes, we will never know, this is specullation, but I think the TVA meant that SOMEONE ELSE would have found and pick it up back into the case, not Loki, hence, forcing Tony and Steve to go back to 1970 anyway :)

[@ruchikhera7013]

@@MarcioHuser yea makes sense thanks for explaining (•‿•)

[@abiracharya9225]

I love the editing

[@joelabrahamsimon2563]

Steve time travels and Peggy gets arrested, so how does that work🤔

[@QandDRecordings]

Also, I think that maybe we’re all getting a little hung up on the idea that Loki wasn’t meant to “escape”. I suspect that the judge’s statement might have been a slight simplification of the truth, which is that he was meant to use the tesseract as we saw, it’s just that the version of him that used the tesseract was never meant to continue on. She worded it the way she did (or rather, the writers wrote it the way they did) because the moment you start to dig deeper, you find yourself getting into the weeds very quickly, and both the judge and the episode had more important things to get to.

[@mjgarak115]

If the Infinity Stones deactivate when pulled out of their timelines, then why do the Stones Steve Rodgers gets still work?

[@bluevegeta4565]

This is the only time where I have actually rooted for the villains in the MCU, I really hope Lady Loki burns the TVA.

[@coryandrum]

There basically modeled after the The National Socialist German Workers’ Party, so its not hard to hate them. There saving the universe by cleansing dirty variants for the superior people of the sacred timeline, lazy writing if you ask me.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@coryandrum There is a TLDR at the bottom of this text I think the show is about how free will is an Illusion, nothing makes sense, and everything that has happened up to this point in the MCU is a lie and meaningless. This is best shown through the TVA, Time Keepers and Sacred Timeline, as well as the Infinity stones having little weight and power on that level This honestly invalidates Spider-Man’s whole philosophy of “Great Power comes Great Responsibility” because in Civil War (movie) he told Ironman “When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen? They happen because of you.” Obviously this is referencing Uncle Ben and how it was Peter’s fault for not being able to protect him. If Free Will is an Illusion and these Time Gatekeepers really exist then Peter was not really responsible and it was not his fault for losing Uncle Ben because Society was an asshole towards Peter Parker and the Time Keepers predetermined it so Peter becomes the great hero Spider-Man. TLDR: The Show is about free will being an Illusion and everything else that has happened to this point is one big thing existential and meaningless lie through the Sacred Timeline structure and everything being predetermined by pure evil and dominating forces such as the Time Keepers. This also invalidates Spider-Man’s Philosophy as a whole.

[@coryandrum]

​@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 LOL... You did this to me last week. I really don't want it to be about the free will >.

[@spkim0921]

It seems like the characters with stronger wills abide by the sacred timeline while the ones with more flexibility become the variant "the hardest choices require the strongest wills" - Thanos

[@Debonairactive]

The TVA said that the avengers going back in time was supposed to happen, but the avengers going back in time is what created variant Loki sooooo variant Loki was also supposed to happen.

[@luneuforever8790]

I love your theories and explanations 😍

[@michaelchevillot4557]

It's sort of funny how Loki hates freedom (for others) but is the very thing he is fighting for.

[@thomasjellinek4987]

The order of development: Idea > Free will > Choice > Debt/Guilty > Repayment > Forgiveness > Life lesson > Idea > .... > ....

[@Webster132]

First episode I knew it came from The Matrix.

[@perceivedvelocity9914]

This is a complex question that has a simple answer. Do people in the MCU have free will? The answer is Yes. Every branch timeline represents a choice. If the TVA does not approve of that choice they prune that branch. The actions of the TVA is a reaction to free will.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@Perceived Velocity There is a TLDR at the bottom of this text I think the show is about how free will is an Illusion, nothing makes sense, and everything that has happened up to this point in the MCU is a lie and meaningless. This is best shown through the TVA, Time Keepers and Sacred Timeline, as well as the Infinity stones having little weight and power on that level This honestly invalidates Spider-Man’s whole philosophy of “Great Power comes Great Responsibility” because in Civil War (movie) he told Ironman “When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen? They happen because of you.” Obviously this is referencing Uncle Ben and how it was Peter’s fault for not being able to protect him. If Free Will is an Illusion and these Time Gatekeepers really exist then Peter was not really responsible and it was not his fault for losing Uncle Ben because Society was an asshole towards Peter Parker and the Time Keepers predetermined it so Peter becomes the great hero Spider-Man. TLDR: The Show is about free will being an Illusion and everything else that has happened to this point is one big thing existential and meaningless lie through the Sacred Timeline structure and everything being predetermined by pure evil and dominating forces such as the Time Keepers. This also invalidates Spider-Man’s Philosophy as a whole.

[@perceivedvelocity9914]

@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 I respect your position but I disagree that free will is an illusion. If free will was an illusion the TVA would not need to prune branch timelines. Choice is essential in the creation of a branch.

[@chrisrice819]

As there is an authority, we know then that there was a will to maintain authority.

[@kenny5466]

Inspired observations here. One constant in the universe is your astute video essays. You're a nexus event!

[@PTRMAN]

You hit the nail on the head at 10:20. The fact that no one has ever seen the actual Time Keepers is weird, they all just take it on faith, like the story of the monkeys, the ladder, and the bananas. I think Lady Loki is aiming to destroy the Time Keepers, which will usher in the Multiverse of Madness, and she will be the hero, or she will be killed and our Loki will pick up and complete her mission.

[@ramirocastano7444]

Whether you are someone who believes you are in control of your life or someone/ something else is in control, you are right.

[@RichGarner]

I think you touched on a brilliant point: If Loki was NOT meant to steal the tessaract and escape, but Steve and Tony WERE meant to go back to the 60s and steal the tesseract BECAUSE of Loki, then those two event should cancel each other out morally. The annex heist in the 60's CORRECTS the void that Loki created in escaping. And if he didn't escape, they would never have done what they were SUPPOSED to do. Which begs the question; "Was Loki REALLY in the wrong by escaping, OR is he being manipulated by the TVA in order to set certain events in motion???"

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

There is a TLDR at the bottom of this text I think the show is about how free will is an Illusion, nothing makes sense, and everything that has happened up to this point in the MCU is a lie and meaningless. This is best shown through the TVA, Time Keepers and Sacred Timeline, as well as the Infinity stones having little weight and power on that level This honestly invalidates Spider-Man’s whole philosophy of “Great Power comes Great Responsibility” because in Civil War (movie) he told Ironman “When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen? They happen because of you.” Obviously this is referencing Uncle Ben and how it was Peter’s fault for not being able to protect him. If Free Will is an Illusion and these Time Gatekeepers really exist then Peter was not really responsible and it was not his fault for losing Uncle Ben because Society was an asshole towards Peter Parker and the Time Keepers predetermined it so Peter becomes the great hero Spider-Man. TLDR: The Show is about free will being an Illusion and everything else that has happened to this point is one big thing existential and meaningless lie through the Sacred Timeline structure and everything being predetermined by pure evil and dominating forces such as the Time Keepers. This also invalidates Spider-Man’s Philosophy as a whole.

[@Kruitvat]

If it wasn’t Loki but another character taken by the TVA (like Peggy Carter) we would have questioned the morality of this organization much sooner. Loki is gold to this storyline, because he’s ambiguous. With anyone else it would have been a one dimensional story.

[@cuca_]

Sooo true

[@GabrielSouza-ie1tt]

I think this first three series(WandaVision, Falcon and The Winter Soldier, Loki) is Marvel saying to us "hey, that's what we are gonna do right now" like, look at the themes of all of them: WandaVision: Talks about psychological and emotional trauma in a deep and scary way. The Falcon and The Winter Soldier: talks about social, racial and political problems that are really complicated to solve. Loki: talks about the existence of free will in a reality that(supposedly) if someone do what is not written the destruction of reality itself would happen. These are all three deep topics that Marvel never explored before and they are saying to us right from the beginning of this new phase that this is what they are gonna be doing now. Okay Marvel, I get it, and I want MORE of that. Sorry for my bad English, I'm not a native speaker.

[@CDAndrews]

Thumbs up for the Mr Robot reference

[@bobybobobear]

Ik no one is going to read this but my theory is that because the timeline is already written, and Loki is just a regular guy in that time line and randy is a girl so they took her when she was little and they trained her just so she can betray them later on and now they hired 2012 Loki to take her down

[@himum3429]

It's defo possible, but what would be the reason

[@bobybobobear]

@@himum3429 he just made a new episode about my theory and he explained it better then I did

[@sherlockmaverick]

6:46 Yeah. WOW

[@chanina143]

If anyone called me a cosmic mistake, I'd say, "Yes, we all are." B)

[@daniellevy2272]

6:25 Finally I've been saying that since like episode 1 🙄🙄

[@UserNoFindy]

You should talk about the agents/workers at TVA, seems weird that they have no memory of life before but seem to still have interests like Mobius with his 80s drinks

[@RicardoPetinga]

Well, they're all supposedly made/born in the TVA, and most of them just work cubicle bureaucratic jobs, while Mobius gets to travel around in time (and space, I guess, at least on Earth) and experience things that allow him to develop interests, although he can't act on them. But you might be on to something, who knows.

[@lordodysseus]

How was Steve supposed supposed to put the space stone in back in the Tesseract? And he didn't take Loki's Septre back to 2012. Just Mjolnir in 2014. And the reality stone wasn't an evil sludge. And he made his own shitty Hydra thing from the comics canon when he said "Hail Hydra" to get the Septre from Strike Team. Sorry, I just pointed out like 9 different plot holes...

[@nicolocastro1539]

i like where this is going

[@shannond7437]

This Matrix theory goes even deeper now that enchantments are at play

[@flavioandrade9202]

It seems a pretty easy answer, free will so far exists in the show but the TVA forces them to not accomplish this freedom. The point is, is the TVA the villains or a necessary evil for the balance of the universe? I think that is what the show is about and it might lead to the next big phase in the MCU. The famous quote "bad with it, worse without it" and we might gonna watch the worse part of it.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@Flavio Andrade There is a TLDR at the bottom of this text I think the show is about how free will is an Illusion, nothing makes sense, and everything that has happened up to this point in the MCU is a lie and meaningless. This is best shown through the TVA, Time Keepers and Sacred Timeline, as well as the Infinity stones having little weight and power on that level This honestly invalidates Spider-Man’s whole philosophy of “Great Power comes Great Responsibility” because in Civil War (movie) he told Ironman “When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen? They happen because of you.” Obviously this is referencing Uncle Ben and how it was Peter’s fault for not being able to protect him. If Free Will is an Illusion and these Time Gatekeepers really exist then Peter was not really responsible and it was not his fault for losing Uncle Ben because Society was an asshole towards Peter Parker and the Time Keepers predetermined it so Peter becomes the great hero Spider-Man. TLDR: The Show is about free will being an Illusion and everything else that has happened to this point is one big thing existential and meaningless lie through the Sacred Timeline structure and everything being predetermined by pure evil and dominating forces such as the Time Keepers. This also invalidates Spider-Man’s Philosophy as a whole.

[@noel5124]

is the multiversal war a definite? or is that an excuse they created?

[@Se7enDsinSGaming]

The collapse of the previous universe's gave birth to the time keepers.

[@RicardoPetinga]

@@Se7enDsinSGaming that's their version of the events and you know victors rewrite history.

[@GabrielSouza-ie1tt]

I'm 90% sure that the Multiversal War is just a lie the Time Keepers created to maintain their power.

[@vkramis4999]

Technically, none of them have free will cause they are characters in a story. Maybe Loki is going to break the fourth wall

[@coryandrum]

So in Wanda they do it, but its to the agents of shield that are watching it. Wouldn't the time keepers be the one's beyond the 4th wall watching Loki on there "time" tv's or however they see the begging and end of time.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@coryandrum There is a TLDR at the bottom of this text I think the show is about how free will is an Illusion, nothing makes sense, and everything that has happened up to this point in the MCU is a lie and meaningless. This is best shown through the TVA, Time Keepers and Sacred Timeline, as well as the Infinity stones having little weight and power on that level This honestly invalidates Spider-Man’s whole philosophy of “Great Power comes Great Responsibility” because in Civil War (movie) he told Ironman “When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen? They happen because of you.” Obviously this is referencing Uncle Ben and how it was Peter’s fault for not being able to protect him. If Free Will is an Illusion and these Time Gatekeepers really exist then Peter was not really responsible and it was not his fault for losing Uncle Ben because Society was an asshole towards Peter Parker and the Time Keepers predetermined it so Peter becomes the great hero Spider-Man. TLDR: The Show is about free will being an Illusion and everything else that has happened to this point is one big thing existential and meaningless lie through the Sacred Timeline structure and everything being predetermined by pure evil and dominating forces such as the Time Keepers. This also invalidates Spider-Man’s Philosophy as a whole.

[@samuelladnier]

Free Will was Loki's motive in Avengers as well. It's poignant that Loki gets it turned back on him.

[@samuelladnier]

Lady Loki is trying to do what Loki Prime was trying to do in Avengers 1. Establish rule over those who think they have the free will to rule over others.

[@vitoremanueldelyrasantosna1607]

Loki stealing the cube affected not only Steve's fate, but also Tony's, through his meeting with Howard. Would Tony sacrifice himself if he didnt come to terms with his dad?

[@DanielAriasLR]

If there is anything that Loki proves is that there are random inconsistencies that can happen in determinism (at least in Sci-fi). Not necessarily as a result of free will. Loki's escape was not as a direct result of his wanting but of an opportunity that landed before him and thus it was in his nature to exploit it (no Tesseract , no escape). Neither the Avengers nor Loki pre-planned the events of his escape, they were simply random consequences of previous actions. Intentionality (Free will) remains an unproven myth.

[@TeSolycMandalor]

Free will is real until you make a decision. Once you decide to do something, a chain reaction of cause and effect takes place. But free will can only occur in 2 place, 8n the inception of your actions or when you decide to stop. Everything Loki is currently doing is predetermined until he decide to stop playing alone with the TVA. Kind of like the ending of this episode.

[@Everardo.Hernandez]

Doesn't the fact that its a Lady Loki prove there it a Multiverse?

[@wheatgrowssweet]

Plot twist: Loki is all three of the "space lizard" time keepers.

[@Overtime123]

I think you are missing one key interpretation: that the second multiversal war is meant to happen and the outcome of that war is to establish or reestablish the timekeepers at the end of time. If that is the case, then everything is deterministic and Loki was meant to pick up the tesseract.

[@Overtime123]

So Loki S1E6.... I was basically right. Everything up till the very end of S1E6 was fully determined. Pat on the back for me :)

[@auroramadariaga4081]

Following your Matrix analogy, Agent Smith also chose to stay after he was killed by Neo at the end of the first movie. He should've gone back to the source and be deleted and yet he didn't do what every agent ought to and stayed and even duplicated himself. He even went out from the Matrix into the real world chasing Neo! Perhaps Mobius will also at some point choose not to follow the TVA anymore and, for once, exercise his agency and free will. If he no longer becomes useful or doesn't fall inline with the TVA, could it be that they have a similar terminal solution for internal lack of discipline just like that poor variant at the beginning which was deleted/killed?

[@LashLaRue3]

The variants new time-line isn't an example of free will, it's just a new time-line full of predetermined/destined events that haven't been observed and record yet.

[@sleinadb]

Yes and I think past a certain point they don't know enough (the red boundary lines) so out of fear they clip the branch.

[@LashLaRue3]

@@sleinadb it is weird to think about though, because assuming the TVA is encountering each nexus event as a predetermined outcome of the "main" time-line they shouldn't, theoretically, encounter an ambush because they should know all of the possible nexus events that have and will happen. BUT if each nexus event isn't pre-determined, when the main time-line causes a nexus event that is an example of free will. Maybe marvel doesn't know what one it is yet? Look up "Free Will" by Sam Harris, this is basically saying that if we rewind the video Loki watched (of his life) it might play back slightly different each time.

[@sleinadb]

@@LashLaRue3 Food for thought. I like sometimes that movies and tv shows dont give all the answers but room to think. They have to give you enough, though...

[@omnipotent_arcanis]

You also forgot to mention the fact that it was going back to get the space stone that Tony gets the advice that leads him to outsmart Thanos. Shake don't pull. Would Stark have done the same action as on Titan and try again to pull the stones from the gauntlet? Or did Loki continue to set in motion the timeline that Dr Strange foresaw leading to the defeat of Thanos?

[@funandentertainment7373]

People travelling through time is predermined but the object(Tesseract) accidentally coming to loki's possession is not and TVA can't control it which lead to cosmic mistake

[@armanke13]

Predetermined, we don't know what we don't know, we don't really know things what hasn't happened

[@shanifnf]

wow, this is what i thought from the first episode. if everything has been defined in the sacred timeline, there should be no "defects" considered as violations committed by the variants. and I was also thinking about if those variants were annihilated for committing a grave offense of messing with the sacred timeline, wouldn't that mess up the timeline instead? why not just erase the memory and put it back on the timeline so things work as they should? this is just what i think

[@beningram1811]

Loki wasn't supposed to pick up the Tesseract, the 2012 Avengers (Thor or Ironman?) were. That way, the present Avengers would STILL have had to travel back to the 70's, and history from 2012 could continue with very little difference from what we saw in the MCU movies.