Lore: The "War of Vengeance" is End Times Level Bad Writing, and a Lie.

#warhammer #totalwar #lore #gamesworkshop #loremaster #rts
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[@BENJAMOSAURUS]

The War of Vengeance is a gigantic fire, you can't look away at how absolutely unhinged the dwarfs and elves get at killing eachothers in the most efficient ways, while you get POV's of 2 or 3 actually decent characters who can't do anything as they watch the fire alongside you.

[@NyJoanzy]

It's another book that begs the questions "how are there even Dark Elves?"

[@jaspermooren5883]

@@NyJoanzy It's just branding. High Elves are just Dark Elves with a better PR department. There's only Elves.

[@mousewifegames]

Timothée Chalamet taking out that one elf is my favorite skaven tactic

[@semi-useful5178]

I personally prefer the War of Vengeance to be part of the Sundering. It would have made more sense for it to kick off the sundering, with Malekith, notable Friend of the Dwarfs being called in to effect regime change so that the Dwarfs can get what they want. Of course the entire would still have been orchestrated by Morathi who was still incredibly butthurt that her baby boy wasn't made phoenix king. This chain of events would make more sense, be more dramatic, and would give the Druchii an actual Ally in the Dwarfs.

[@MerM1021]

Thank you for rerecording, glory to the rat empire

[@StarshadowMelody]

"FIFTEEN SECONDS! _INTO THE ORIGINAL RECORDING!"_

[@HumanBoyYesYes]

fact

[@IOnlyRollOnes]

What makes the whole Elven-Dragon relationship plotline even weirder is that it is one of the defining features of Tethlis' reign as Phoenix King that the dragon's were beginning to fall in to a mysterious sleep, forcing a drastic overhaul of the Elven army. Tethlis came to power after Caradryel the Peacemaker died peacefully in his sleep after ruling for 700 FUCKING YEARS, and came to power AFTER Caledor the II, who started and ended the War of the Beard. So we can conclude that all the dragons going to sleep TWO PHOENIX KINGS TOO EARLY either didn't happen, or the Elves didn't notice that their dragon pals were missing, and that their entire military branch desperately needed a top to bottom overhaul as a result, for 700 YEARS.

[@andrewjackson3603]

The Doom of Kavzar is an apocryphal myth in setting, the origin of Skaven is not known for sure. For example, the Dawi have a disputed Ancestor God who heretical rune priests say is the father of Skaven.

[@-nav-398]

The tree spirits inhabiting elves' bodies thing sounds like it would be a cool explanation for specifically any wood elves that serve with Drycha in her armies since I half remember something about her hating all mortals, even elves. But I'm agree that it isn't a convincing or consistent explanation for wood elves overall.

[@NyJoanzy]

How does a company manage to be this risk averse and still make such wildly unpopular decisions?

[@TaRAAASHBAGS]

They're laughably inconsistent when it comes to stuff they don't let anybody touch versus stuff they just let one inexperienced writer ruin for years to come. I think of Vermintide 2 where "yeah the Imperial peasant gets to be a Grail Knight because a fortune cookie said he could" contrasted with "THE WARRIOR PRIEST CANNOT USE ANYTHING THAT'S NOT A HAMMER."

[@zugzug84]

I mean it's not like Vermintide 2 has the most serious of lore. I think Fatshark just really wanted to do the Grail Knight. FT: Please please please can we make Kruber a Grail Knight even though it makes no sense, and we can even have other characters acknowledge it makes no sense? GW: Will he be awesome? FS.: Well make him the best class in the game. GW: Can you make him do that arrogant french accent that we all love to hate? FS: Of course! GW: Then go ahead. FS: We also want to make Sienna a Necromancer! GW: ...

[@will9501]

WHAT ARE THESE SOUNDS AT THE END OF THE VIDEO NOW? THEY CONFUSE AND FRIGHTEN ME!

[@SweetKillarney13]

In the new rulebook Tylos is part of the Rise of Men chronology, p 33-36. Since it is cronological we know the fall of Tylos happened between the rise of Nagash and the fall of Nagash, so 1959 to 1600 before Sigmar. The war of vengence was 1997 to 1560 before Sigmar. Thus the timelines add up with the first sightings of skaven. I cant believe the rat lied to us about lore.

[@TehYellowDevil]

It's been ages since i last read the war of vengeance (i wonder why) but i remember i hated how a few plotthreads, especially the dark elf one, kind of went nowhere.

[@diegocamacho6477]

Tree Kin (the mounstrous infantry) are actually dead Wood Elves possesing trees to continue protecting Athel Loren ala 40K Wraith constructs. They might be proto-Tree Kin created by opportunistic Forest Spirits before Ariel and Orion formalized the agreement between the Elves and Spirits.

[@semi-useful5178]

Damn Human boy, such a shame that you uploaded a 53 minute completely silent video with some cool warhammer artwork that changes a few times

[@HumanBoyYesYes]

#gottem

[@semi-useful5178]

@@HumanBoyYesYes Third try is the charm, definately

[@dr.squares8938]

It's cool, Hummus those books were written by Drogar, he just showed up to write them.

[@HumanBoyYesYes]

goddamit u win

[@dr.squares8938]

@@HumanBoyYesYes thank you for doing this again, I really like your takes on lore. God speed

[@MAGS-ik5uj]

“I was reading the dwarf omnibus, which is a collection of *short* stories” Alright, book ‘em

[@sleet3872]

Hey just one sat I love these lore videos, they flow really well and feel like listening to a friend talk about it. Keep up the good work!

[@balintnemes6774]

Don't forget to put this in the lore playlist!

[@HumanBoyYesYes]

ty i did forget

[@davidhernando353]

Everyone involved in the war apparently suffered from massive memory loss. The dwarves part seems like the worst written judging by the video. I don't know if I'd say it's as bad as End Times, but it certainly seems unable to maintain coherence with the previous material and has many, many characters acting stupidly to advance a plot that doesn't make much sense. I knew the elf numbers were small (I guess the Sundering can do that to a population), but I never thought the Beard War was a zerg rush of dwarves against elves, it's strangely funny. It also makes the dwarf "victory" (if you can call it that, seeing how all the participants finished) even more pyrrhic and useless. The idea of dwarves having trouble passing through armor is even stranger, but the writers will know or not by seeing the amount of contradictions with other material. The thing about the skaven and Snorri half hand borders on comedy, being the designated villain doesn't mean you have to suffer some kind of brain damage, and even Caledor II isn't as stupid as Snorri by a small margin). The wood zombie elves. The big question is, was Caledor II's corpse possessed by a forest spirit after his fatal drinking contest against Snorri?

[@Grivehn]

Human Boy's leadership during this whole recording was as wildly inconsistent as his units' during battle. Very immersive, 10/10. Lore bits were neat, too. I wanted to read this myself soon enough, but if its so meh, I might just put it off for later. So Tzeentch started the war essentially. Because dwarfs just believed this guy coming from the lost hold, looking suspicious, having suspicious technology, but to kill elves, dwarfs will literally take demonic gifts and not ask questions even later. And this dwarf prince could have ended the war by exposing the demonic agent, had he not have BIGGER pride than the literal Phoenix King of the High Elves. Then when said demon is finally exposed, the Dwarfs STILL NOT think that 'guys, we have been bamboozled. How about we tell the elves, and try to call off this war?' So its all the dwarf's fault. They also slaughtered a town first... cutting off some beards is getting off lightly for that, to be frank. The Chaos Dwarfs seem more benign and smart in comparison to their uncorrupted cousins. And those were the guys who created Black Orcs and didnt see it coming when said orcs escaped and nearly destroyed their little kingdom. Also also, wood elf zombies would have made a cool subfaction or something. Them being Dryads would make sense too. Sorry to hear these books were essentially created in a vacuum.

[@BENJAMOSAURUS]

So about the dwarfs not stopping the war: Early in the war when things didn't go to complete shit yet, Mr perfect elf Imladrik, who the dwarfs king met before the war and wasn't a total dick to them, explain to them that the sundering happened and that Malekith and the dark elves are responsible for killing one of their rune lord (which is what prompted the dwarf prince to slaughter an entire city, the dark elves pinned it on the high elves, and since the high elves didnt want the dwarfs to know about the sundering, the dwarfs never considered that the dark elves did it). The dwarfs, when told about the dark elves, don't really believe it (no proof + ultra convenient to pin it on others+ beards are serious business) and tell Imladrik its too late cause dwarfs from over the world are already into the war stuff. When the lord of change is pincushioned by the dwarfs, they literally say "should we tell the high elves that a lord of change from Tzeentch was behind our actions" and the king simply answer "We didn't believe them when they said the dark elves did it, why would they believe us when we say a lord of change did it" TL DR, Dark elves started the fire but Tzeentch poured gasoline on it. neither side could believe the other. Its worth pointing out both sides were 100% confident they were going to win the war, elves considered dragons as invicible while dwarfs at this point had literally almost wiped out greenskins from the map (oh yeah, thats another thing that makes this war worse, had it never happened, greenskins might not be there anymore, cause while the dwarfs and elves fought, greenskins, dark elves and skavens multiplied) On the wood elf thing, its not a total zombie thing: at the end of the war, a high elf character we get POV's during the story finds herself in the woods after she helped a colony escape a bloodthirsty dwarf lord who wanted to slaughter civilians fleeing the colony. they escape by the woods, the dwarfs follow and then get slaughtered by dryads and treemen. The elves find themselves alongside as high elves and dark elves (those who caused the war to start) and animals, they aren't sure why but the forest called them here, and they realize they don't hate eachother anymore. Its weird regardless, but the scene of the dryads is pretty cool.

[@Grivehn]

@@BENJAMOSAURUS Pretty exhaustive explanation, thank you! Proving the demonic corruption might be a little easier, though. If the writers themselves could point out the inconsistencies explained by Hummus anyhow. Surely some high elves survived who had seen dwarfs suddenly throwing demonic grenades, especially since they shouldnt even have a weapon like that at the time.

[@hoodedwizard4695]

Rest in Peace first Video. You will be missed.

[@DogKacique]

Things like this remind me of the fact that back in the day GW picked anyone on the street that could write and had them write books for the company. Some books are still not great, but it's definitely better now

[@rtristan8572]

What a long video, I can't imagine how painful it could have been if for some reason the sound was unusable and the guy recording the voice over had to do it all over again, I would definitely quit KZbin if that ever happened to me. Eitherway, cool video, like history classes from highschool, but fun. We need more of this !

[@Canuovea]

Maybe the Skaven were around before the Doom of Kazavazavor, or whatever, and they just settled in the city, and were called there by that event? So that's less the origin of Skaven but more the origin of Skavenblight? And people don't know? Maybe Grombrindel is just a liar? Maybe Malekith was always just a jerk and mind controlled dragons for fun? And Morathi just took credit for it? Maybe the Ekrund Dwarfs forgot that Barak Varr got obliterated? And they just didn't know? And maybe the Dwarfs of Barak Varr just insisted to be treated like they were doing great all the time because otherwise they'd just grudge everyone? Maybe High Elves were as bad as Dark Elves all along? And maybe the newer Dragons were bumped on the head and got amnesia? Or they're all secretly enslaved? And some of them remembered it later on in Age of Sigmar, which is why only Stormcast ride on Dragons? Maybe Karak Zorn is actually okay really after all? And they just like being mean? Or maybe Dwarfs are just really dumb and forgot about pink and blue fire? And maybe Dwarfs were so scared of the Elves that they forgot to be technologically conservative? The Changeling is just that good, I guess? Or, again, the Dwarfs have bad memories and need to write it down to remember anything? Maybe Dark Elves just have babies really quickly? It took 500ish years, after all! Lots of babies. Maybe they have even more babies by Franz's time than the High Elves do? Maybe Wood Elves are actually really just zombies? Or tree zombies? Maybe it was Orion all along? It doesn't mention Nagash, though, at least? Maybe Warhammer's lore is just messy as all get out? Though technically, I think that the Dwarfs and Elves didn't fight the Daemons together. Malekith met the Dwarfs after the Vortex dealt with the Daemon problem, right? They were just fighting the Daemons separately.

[@adrianoking9579]

the dragon was dead and was awakened with necromancy. therefore its simple to say that Malekith knew a dead dragon was there. it is very well mentioned IN THE SAME BOOK that the damn Druchii wizard was being haunted by its dead carcass that ended in the middle of the ocean after he lost a fight agaisn't the High elf dragon. Human Boy must have forgot that.

[@AngryLemon19]

I love this video it communicates the state of mind you're in and the complexity of the lore too very nice

[@odmloupi]

"This is not the greatest comedic bit in the world... no, this is just a tribute!" XD

[@rainyFrog15]

first second of the video .... that laugh... made me laugh xDDD

[@christianweibrecht6555]

This event is what distinguishes this franchise from other fantasy

[@BENJAMOSAURUS]

38:00 I don't remember him showing up to all dwarfs just yet, don't we simply get a pov of another named dwarf watching the boats from far away, noticing a hooded figure near the powder, then with horror realizing its Drogor, still smoking from the explosion we was supposed to have died from, smiling at him from afar before lightning up the powder ? Its true he does show up in front of everyone else later on, when he gets ousted, so its stupid regardless. Don't the dwarfs also use green fire flamethrowers at some point in the story ? it really gets weird...

[@HumanBoyYesYes]

yea, I meant how did he get there, assemble a boat with all the blue fire barrels they had, sail it out there, THEN someone noticed it was him. That had to take time! Unless the dwarfs kepy all their blue fire barrels on one boat that was already prepared to set sail

[@markfox4786]

This is just great! Keep it up

[@fogdance]

This was most enjoyable AND informative yes yes

[@Szatan-yi9lc]

Ok, so about Skaven existing before humans plot hole - In theory founding of Nehekhara was in -2500IC, War of Vengeance lasted from -2000 until -1600 IC. So in theory there could be an early human-populated city in Tilea. Maybe not by humans from the North but humans nonetheless. But I guess your argument still holds as indeed dwarfs could have traded with people of Nehekhara? Although at the time of War of Vengeance the thing with Nagash was going on, so maybe that was the issue

[@rennandragon789]

This video came out just in time lol. I just finished reading The Sundering and I loved It, so I was going to start reading The War of Vengeance. Do you have any suggestions for books to read after Sundering besides Masters of Stone and Steel ?

[@HumanBoyYesYes]

I really enjoyed the Karak Eight Peaks omnibus. Has a dwarf, a skaven and a greenskin story, all pretty good. Matthias Thulman: Witch Hunter is also a good series about the empire. Thanquol and Boneripper Omnibus is great if you like skaven. The Malus Darkblade books are awesome until the end times if you like Dark Elves. Tyrion and Teclis are my next read so I can tell you in 2-3 months if its any good XD

[@rennandragon789]

​@@HumanBoyYesYesTyrion and Teclis are on my list, I loved Teclis in Giantslayer. 2 more questions: Elves The Omnibus is It worth reading ? And where is this on the timeline? Gotrek and Felix books do you think it's worth continuing reading after Giantslayer? There's this time lapse of 20 years and a lot of people say it got bad after the change of writer.

[@HumanBoyYesYes]

Elves is on my list after tyrion teclis, havent read it yet :( I like gotrem and frimbus until the end personally, it was just different. So if you REALLY liked the early stuff then id skip the later things because it isnt the same at all. I was lukewarm on the early stuff, it was fine dont get me wrong but I wasnt like YEAAA THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER so when it did a 180 I was like, sure why not.@@rennandragon789

[@thegreatbookofgrudges6953]

Hey at least it's still in the universe not like that certain "time" where you can no longer used your TK models Also without the war of vengeance there would be no the empire, WE, and bretonnia

[@lotfihachani1016]

And what about nehekara ? Did they exist at that Time ? The dwarves could trades with them

[@thelonecabbage7834]

You didn't forget to record, you just had a rehearsal run.

[@rubz1390]

Don't think it is specified in the Doom of Kavzar story that the stranger is a Tzeentch sorceror.

[@PhilosophicallyAmerican]

What book were you reading? Did you get a different edition than me? The dwarfs were not instigated by land disputes, but by the manipulations of a Lord of Change. The dwarfs were not incompetent fighters compared to the elves. 3 to 1 on a good day? Where did you get that? Also, Grombrindal would not have been an epic legend at the time of the War of Vengeance as he only just angered himself back to life.

[@TheSturtless]

Nick Kyme and C L Werners writing drives me nuts, doesn't surprise me haha. I don't mind Chris Wraight tho E: I am LOVING the ranting though Human boy 😂

[@HumanBoyYesYes]

thats half the appeal tbh XD

[@Snarkbar]

Hummus next time just leave your microphone on! :) Also, all hail Timothy Shalamay!

[@TheWujuStyle]

Get the book

[@sfp2290]

This was amazing and I loved every second of it. Not the story, that was dogshit (except for the last part with the drinking game). But the way you told it was great!

[@HumanBoyYesYes]

thanks!

[@hippocampussashimi7819]

31:00 Dwarfs developed flame cannons before gunpowder I think? Sky titan cannons predating Dwarfen gunpowder use. No idea where blasting charges, cinderblast grenades, drakeguns, etc. come in that chronology. Alchemical compounds can make fire multicloloured, but the dwarfs are a suspicious sort and any engineer would be very huffy about newfangled tevhnology that hasn't been tested for decades. Its not quite as silly as you make it out to be, I think

[@TaRAAASHBAGS]

I like a lot of the ideas of worldbuilding and blurbs in the old army books. The stuff clearly written by history-majors-turned-roleplayers is some of the best... but when it comes to full novels, most of them are pretty bad. Even the "good" ones like Gotrek and Felix have super simplified prose and clearly exist just as marketing. Very seldom do the Warhammer novels attempt anything daring or off the wall. The ones I've read are almost entirely plot-driven, and those "plots" are to 'member berry as many of the toys and settings you've heard of as possible. But uh still way better than the crap they're putting out nowadays. I'd take another War of the Beard over sterile, lazy Cathay/nu-Kislev.

[@rocketroux5838]

Dont act like I havent offered to read your script for you

[@duethe6929]

sexiest voice on KZbin !

[@Ankhtowe]

The Doom of Kavzar is not the Skaven origin story, no matter how much GW keeps pretending like it is. "Once upon a time the humans and dwarfs mutated into the first Skaven because they got attacked by the Skaven that weren't there because they didn't exist because the first Skaven are created in this story and so the Skaven that weren't there made the people into the first Skaven." It's just a battle story. It explicitly includes the Skaven coming up from underground to attack the dwarfs during the story, therefore it cannot be an origin story.

[@semi-useful5178]

Nah, It was when Skavor made them.

[@Amalvipls]

Ratman, not for your fans, not for your videos, but for your own mental health PLEASE buy new recording equipment

[@HumanBoyYesYes]

do you mean the cutting out story, or was there an actual issue in the video. We have made several audio upgrades in the past 6 months so just wondering if there are still issues. For now I know my headphones sometimes lose the left side (for me to hear, not for yall) and the arm I ordered came missing a screw so its held up by duct tape

[@Amalvipls]

@@HumanBoyYesYes oh no, don't worry, the comment was half joking about how you entered mad skaven mode about loosing the recording because your audio equipment got cut fifteen seconds into the bit. Something like "oh no, my boy is suffering a most foul dreaded thirteen spell because of his shitty hardware!"

[@HumanBoyYesYes]

haha alrighty. We try to be responsive to quality issues at hbyy industries!@@Amalvipls

[@Amalvipls]

@@HumanBoyYesYes sorry ratman, this is the second time I've gotten you confused with a dumbass comment. My apologies

[@grombrindal6247]

how much do the elves from your discord pay you to give such different opinions from loremasters?

[@HumanBoyYesYes]

?

[@HumanBoyYesYes]

You like Tzeentch controlling the dwarfs and making you his puppet?????

[@grombrindal6247]

@@HumanBoyYesYes this makes sense because the dwarves had not had contact with demons for several hundred years, it was a threat that was ignored all over the world at that moment, a bit like the jedi council and the dark side of the power of runes, the lords did not know the rune lord the lords of change at that time because they had only heard about them in legends

[@grombrindal6247]

correction... what I mean is that the rune lords didn't know the power of the change lords because they only heard about them in legends

[@grombrindal6247]

it was a threat that was now only a legend and the powers of demons long forgotten

[@Cpt0bviouss]

My only complaint is that this isn't an hour and a half. In fact I am tempted to hold a grudge against human boy for that.... yeah, I think I'll do that >_