LOREBEARDS: Warhammer: The Old World, Lore Changes Part 1, w/ Loremaster of Sotek and Andy Law

Join Loremaster of Sotek and Andy Law as they take a deep dive into the new Warhammer game, The Old World, and examine all the new lore. What's changed? What's stayed the same? And what has lurched in an entirely different direction?
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Podcast original stream date 28th January, 2024
#Warhammer #Lorebeards #warhammerfantasy

[@gilesbarnes7456]

I think Malerion much like Setra should have a number of different titles: Malerion rightful Phoenix king of Ulthuan, Dread King of the Druchii, Witch King of Naggaroth, and many others which would allow for old and new titles. Additionally for me a very easy way of reconciling the character's name being retconned to Malerion from Malekith is just different languages. Many character throughout history have changed their names or had multiple names. Tamujin was known in the west as Genghis Khan, Qin Shi Huang was born Ying Zheng, Charlemagne is commonly translated as Charles the Great although he was called at the time Karl. Names translations and understandings all have changed throughout history.

[@philipbowles5397]

I wondered if the name change referenced something from older lore I didn't know about before he changed his name to the familiar Malekith. It seems odd to change a faction leader's established name permanently to fit with the still-unrepresented Age of Sigmar incarnation. Since his faction's not part of the ongoing story I doubt we'll get any clarity on why and how he became Malekith in the familiar portion of the timeline.

[@gilesbarnes7456]

@@philipbowles5397 my head cannon is Malekith is the name the High Elves call him, Mal (evil), ekith (of kin) so basically "of evil kin".

[@jacobtrost5048]

I feel like "Dread King Malerion" is a title he would be given by the High Elves, but that he would never take himself.

[@lrhty1825]

I understand the reasoning behind the changing it from Malekith (even if I don't like it), but changing Witch-King feels kind of unnecessary. Tolkien himself got the title from old Germanic folklore if I recall, feels like saying that only one character in fiction can be called the Dark Lord or something like that.

[@akumaking1]

No news about Prince Imrik trying to get into Grand Cathay?

[@tristanbidwell7515]

Always love when a new Lorebeards drop. The passion is infectious!

[@LAWhammer]

Thanks so much for saying so!

[@loremasterofsotek]

We appreciate the kind words so much!

[@Blitzkrieg1012]

I'm so glad you guys are back. My Sundays were kind of empty when you guys were off.

[@LAWhammer]

Delighted we can bring some Warhammer-based joy to your Sundays again! :D

[@mgsanm]

You guys are the best! Thanks for putting up the time and the work. I look forward to tap into lorebeards every week!

[@LAWhammer]

Thanks so much for joining us for the ride!

[@legiovicta6759]

Hi Andy! Just wanted to say I’ve been watching since you started this channel and I absolutely love all of your content as well as your MASSIVE love for the setting! Best of health to you and thank you and Sotek for the all fantastic work you do

[@LAWhammer]

Awww! Thanks so much for taking the time to say so! Hopefully you'll enjoy everything we have coming up as much!

[@MarkS00NMcknown]

It is possible for the comet to appear twice, because in our world comet pulled by Sun's gravity and revolve around it, so it appears twice. First as it moves toward the sun and second as it moves further away from the sun. So it is still possible to retcon the timeline's comet as there is a twin-tailed comet appeared when Sigmar born then 30 years later the same comet re-appear in year 0/Sigmar's corronation.

[@LAWhammer]

That could be one of many potential resolutions. Assuming they want a resolution, that is.

[@loremasterofsotek]

I do hope they repair it to say that! I would make it MUCH better to have the Comet appear twice within that small period as that would also clean up the inconsistency between the Lizardmen seeing the comet in year 0/1 IC but the old lore Old Worlders seeing it in -30 IC

[@philipbowles5397]

@@loremasterofsotek Isn't it a magic comet that appears whenever it's suitably portentous, and in later eras possibly hurled around by Sigmar himself, rather than a genuine heavenly body that acts like real comets? Or if real, need it always be the same comet? Maybe the Warhammer system has an unending supply of twin-tailed comets. They didn't even mention the one seen above Mordheim in the book since the city doesn't get a mention.

[@philipbowles5397]

@@LAWhammer Couldn't the Sigmarites simply have got the date wrong? It was a significant event within the living memory of people who experienced Sigmar's ascension, and over time they conflated the two events - similar things have happened in the real world. The significance of the comet to Sigmar himself derives from the symbolism, so it doesn't matter so much if the comet wasn't actually associated with him at the time. After all, Halley's comet appears on the Bayeux Tapestry even though it was visible in May and the Battle of Hastings was in October.

[@Juliusstarcraft]

This was very enjoyable

[@LAWhammer]

Thanks for saying so, and thanks for watching!

[@carsonnesbit1178]

Nice stream! I think I’m pretty happy with how they’ve handled repackaging the lore overall. They cleared up some previous contradictions and inconsistencies whilst creating some new ones in the process haha, there’s quite a few head scratchers and strange omissions but I think I can safely speak for all of us when I say that I’m just glad they didn’t butcher anything outright. Can’t wait for the next stream :)

[@LAWhammer]

Completely agreed. Whilst some of the fine detail may significantly contradict previous lore, and some of it seems in error, overall it's a fine book that does a great job. Of course, this being a lore-focussed show, we are always going to delve into the nitty gritty of those changes - which can appear negative - but it's still a book that does its job well for all there are what we perceive to be mistakes or some very odd choices.

[@RoccaFelipe]

¡Gracias!

[@fredslipknot9]

Well that’s a lot of money.

[@rubensosaortiz8230]

😮

[@LAWhammer]

Thank you so much! Enormously appreciated!

[@Le-cp9tr]

A few questions to Address in future coverage (I will update this as I go through the stream): 1) The Chaos Dwarfs are explicitly created during the cataclysm and it’s said that they lost contact with the Ancestor Gods. How does this square with the new lore? 2) Nehekhara is the first human civilization yet here we are told Cathay formed during the cataclysm. Does this softly confirm that Nehekh formed Nehekhara before the cataclysm? 3) Given we know that historically the Divine Sun of Nippon has been referred to on parr to that of the Dragon Emperor and the Dragon Emperor has been referred to as the most powerful being before the old ones, could that imply that the Divine Sun is an Old One?

[@LAWhammer]

1) The date is moved to later, some time after the Cataclysm. 2) Nehekhara is the first 'true human empire' - one without dragons - so it confirms nothing about when the realm was founded. 3) It could, but it seems unlikely given how the old ones are used. I'd not rely upon anything until GW finally heads in Nippon's direction. When it is, if ever, detailed, everything will be open to being rewritten.

[@fabianmiron2782]

@@LAWhammerI still like the idea of a child of the dragon emperor abandoning his parents and building a realm in Nippon. Maybe he set up a system in contrast to the “atheistic” culture of cathay where the dragons oppress any religious sentiment. You could connect it to irl Japanese Shintoism which would give Nippon a connection with Yokai inspired beings being commonplace and working with the people in a way how in kislev the spirit of the land help fight chaos. The Nippon dragon could act like the historic Japanese emperor mainly being secluded and cultural and political unifying but not governing force. Human leader like the shogun would actually rule the lands. Maybe the Nippon dragon enacts rituals that defend the island magically (inspired by the kamakazi winds of the mongols invasions) which makes invading Nippon from cathay impossible but limits Nippons fighting strength by not having the Nippon dragon fight his siblings (maybe the yokai are also mostly bonded by the land so you can’t have a full invasion force of them running trough the world) Whether or not they would be on the side of order or non Chaotic “evil” (sorry for the word) like the dark elves would be up in the air. I would like though to have on unique selection of “Japan” being on the darker side then I see the strong cultural influence of Japan which misguides people to believe them to be perfectly good and super special in all cases.

[@philipbowles5397]

I like the idea that the Warhammer world (I am happy they didn't change the name either to World of Legend as is their current branding or, Sigmar forbid, 'Mallus'. For all that it's bizarre that a world with 30 real-world years of backstory was never given a name) factions are as prone to those of the real world to histiography. Maybe Nehek was an invention, an imagined founder inferred from the existence of somewhere called Nehekhara - similar mythic figures were created in the Classical world and Middle Ages all the time. And so past timelines referencing him were referring to a mythical figure.

[@Le-cp9tr]

@@philipbowles5397 Nehekh is an allusion to Narmer for reference

[@seromni58]

Love these lore videos, thanks❤

[@stilloading5652]

If They make Sicilian Pirates in warhammer I will definitely have to buy that army

[@LAWhammer]

It will be very hard not to buy those...

[@thegreatbookofgrudges6953]

11:00 13:20 19:50 22:40 24:19 26:20 29:25 31:45 33:50 34:38 36:10 37:45 40:50 50:34 56:50 58:30 1:02:26 1:02:40 1:05:28 1:07:00 1:10:00 1:11:19 1:13:37 1:14:14 1:16:25 1:17:18 1:20:17 1:22:02 1:24:57 1:27:00 1:29:30 1:30:35 1:32:15 1:36:10 1:37:00 1:38:03 1:39:00 1:41:33 1:44:02 1:47:30 1:48:32 1:49:05 1:49:40 1:51:05 1:59:38 21:30 44:48 45:18 46:14 49:00 1:03:48 1:04:28 1:40:50 1:45:00 1:46:15

[@VenatorStellorum]

What about Malerion the Dragon King? Would make his corruption of the eggs into Black Dragons somewhat ironic...

[@gilesbarnes7456]

Personally I am down for it the only issue I would say is it feels too similar to Cathay. I would personally go Malerion the Wyrm King same meaning but both darker implication and also different from Cathay.

[@VenatorStellorum]

That's a fair point, my other thought was Dark Phoenix King which might be too on the nose but likely if he still called himself Phoenix King the Asur would choose a different epithet or add a modifier to it which could also explain where the term Dark Elves comes from - their ruler's name according to the Asur. The point about multiple people/groups claiming one name also brings up an interesting question of whether the Asur and Druchii would call themselves that, or maybe use the reverse term for each other (i.e. Dark Elves think they're Asur and the Ulthuani are the Druchii) or perhaps the dark elves use two different Elven words altogether.

[@gilesbarnes7456]

@@VenatorStellorum very true, I personally would the Dark Elves and High Evles use the terms Asur and Druchii for each other but I think neither word really implies elf. Asur presumable coming from Asuryan the god the High Elves particularly venerate while Druchii comes from some association with Khaine who the Dark Elves exalt and venerate above the gods. An interesting thing to note is that in many ways the Dark/High/Wood elf split is a religious one.

[@philipbowles5397]

@@VenatorStellorum He leads a faction known in-universe as the Dark Elves - I'm not sure he'd mind being unsubtle.

[@Sigismund]

I wonder if Karond Kar is included in the timeline because it's the slaver's port and the Dark Elves primary interaction with the Old World is via slave raids. If the hypothesized abandoned larger scope is true, it could be that the Dark Elf list (or potentially Army of Infamy) was going to be focused on corsairs and reavers from Karond Kar

[@philipbowles5397]

Did the Dark Elves captured by Nagash originate from Karond Kar? That would make the reference relevant, I don't think there was ever a proposed greater scope focused on existing factions - maybe focused on new ones like Kislev, but not stuff supported through AoS like Dark Elves. The designers already said outright that their pre-existing goals were supported by a setting that gave them excuses to ignore Skaven and Vampire Counts, so I suspect they went in with an objective to minimise overlap with AoS factions (bearing in mind that there was never going to be a clear route to sidelining Beasts or Warriors of Chaos, and ignoring vampires is a fudge - Mousillon is right in a focal part of the map).

[@osomalos0575]

THIS IS THE MOMENT, would Loremaster of Sotek and the LAWhammer write down a real timeline collecting all the data we have until now in Warhammer Fantasy Battle? Because I would buy one and hang it in my room.

[@LAWhammer]

Sadly, that's GW's copyrighted material. We couldn't pop this up to sell lovely prints. That said, we could do it for free, I suppose...

[@lestrike2707]

I love the enthusiasm you guys are glowing with! :)

[@SpiceCh]

Speaking of the great plan reminds me of the whole thing about Cathay messing with the Geomantic Web. I wonder if the Celestial Dragon Emperor's intention is to tap so much power that the planet can be pushed back to its original position. He chose diplomacy with the Old Ones, waited until they were gone and now sees his chance to return things once more to the way they were before the Old Ones arrived.

[@SpiceCh]

I will also say, I don't get the point of having a time line when it's this poorly worded and full of missing entries. It creates more questions than it answers and causes more issues than it solves. I frankly wish they didn't include it and instead made a separate, dedicated, detailed and illustrated timeline book

[@philipbowles5397]

@@SpiceCh Honestly, they don't seem to have thought through much new to add. Half the core book lore is about the Lizardmen, who don't even feature as a major faction, since they, the elf schism and Nehekhara form the bulk of the existing lore prior to the centuries detailed in the older WFB material (especially as Mordheim is missing). We're supposed to be a seeing a previously unknown invasion of the Border Princes by Settra's fleet and even that barely gets any set up.

[@wdh199821]

The recurring comment of “this was written for the existing audience” is exactly how I’ve felt about the entire Old World project ever since they started seriously promoting it.

[@weslooos]

how they sneak past the old ones? just lke grom the pounch got to ulthone. they just did.

[@Icesong]

That it was part of the Great Plan for the Mortal Realms to form in the wake of the world's destruction is a headcanon I've long held. It's the only way I can accept Age of Sigmar. It also greatly imbues purpose into the Lizardmen and their actions. All that business about realignments and focusing geomantic energies could be said to have played a role in bringing about this outcome. Maybe even think of it as the world itself being one large magical circle for a ritual spell the Old Ones wanted to cast. The world's physical and magical properties had to be in a certain configuration for the Winds of Magic to coalesce into the Realmspheres, and the Slann maintaining the Geomantic Web and the structure of the world for as long they did ensured it happened. Maybe they didn't know that's what they were doing, but it's enough to know the Great Plan had a purpose which continues even into AoS.

[@philipbowles5397]

The Seraphon have been retconned with every edition of AoS, but the new book finally justifies their existence in the setting and makes a lot of use of both the comprehensive shift from WFB's Mayan lizards with van Danniken easter eggs to full-blown Ancient Aliens. It does go in pretty much the direction you suggest, and reconciles the strangeness that resulted from simply lifting the old lore wholesale - dedicated hunting for Old One artefacts in a setting that shouldn't have had any Old Ones and all - in earlier editions.

[@Grz349]

Andy mentions that all Warpstone forms in the moment of the cataclysm. Does that mean when it no longer forms in areas of high Dhar? Or does it forms from ambient dust ?

[@loremasterofsotek]

Most of the older lore supports that virtually ALL Warpstone was created during the Cataclysm as otherwise we would see many forces trying to farm/create it like the Skaven and Vampires who crave it so much. We discuss this more in depth during the Lorebeards episode on Morrslieb kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHnchYtqpKyIidE

[@philipbowles5397]

In later periods it periodically arrives on meteors that originated on Morrsleib. If I recall correctly the Warpstone Desert lore created for (or at least now associated with) Zhao Ming has something about its creation stemming from a warpstone meteor shower, and Skaven have always chased warpstone meteorites. A meteor was also the source of the warpstone everyone was hunting in Mordheim.

[@ryanjones6384]

You want to know how da boyz snuck on a ship? By doing something so stupid and unsurvivable that the Old Ones couldn't mentally comprehend the concept. The equivalent of, say, hiding in a live jet engine. ...and then surviving. Or at least enough of them that it became a problem later.

[@LAWhammer]

I feel it's a story that needs some explanation. Spores seem almost likely, a bunch of Greenskins hanging behind the Slann containment engines seems sorta ridiculous without context.

[@MaloDiablo]

"The equivalent of, say, hiding in a live jet engine" i laughed so hard when i read that lol, you can never truly comprehend the non-combat actions of the Greenskins 😆

[@philipbowles5397]

@@LAWhammer Making them stowaways is the bit that doesn't really work - the Old Ones in this telling seem to miss an awful lot. That they had been Old Slann servant creatures that got out of control would have made more sense, especially if they did both originate in the 40k universe (where Orks were a creation of the Old Ones).

[@LAWhammer]

@@philipbowles5397It is a tough detail to accept at face value.

[@philipbowles5397]

@@LAWhammer I don't think spores work because Warhammer orcs have never explicitly had a fungal component (and as Blood Bowl is a parallel version of the Warhammer World and the current range has resurrected female orc cheerleaders, female orcs may canonically exist in the Warhammer World). Of course that also makes it questionable whether we are back in the 40k universe.

[@kg6316]

Sotek Please look into a noise gate or a simple mute button when you have to cough or sneeze! Love the content!

[@LAWhammer]

I'm pretty sure he has one. But these things are easily forgotten in the heat of the moment. We'll try to use it next time!

[@milesg7877]

Agree! Awesome stuff Lorebeards!

[@Tulkash01]

Humans being evolved by the Old Ones was true at least since the Dark Omens campaign: the humans on Albion were descendants of those who were taught by the Old Ones and had access to their paths. In general I find very little that wasn't at least hinted in previous lore in the Old Wolrd rulebook.

[@LAWhammer]

Agreed. This book, as I opened the stream, mostly takes what came before and attempts to rationalise it as a new consistent whole, which I applaud as a goal as it's always been what I've attempted to do for Warhammer in my work.

[@Tulkash01]

@@LAWhammer indeed. For example, Dragons predating the coming of the old ones was stated at least in “The World of Warhammer”. Basically the Old World core rule book gave some order to what were disparate and often contradictory sources. P. S. Kudos for mentioning “Stone and Steel”, it’s a great book and I wish the Studio took more inspiration from it. Nunez did a really wonderful job reconciling post 3rd edition WHFB with WHFRPG 1st edition

[@LAWhammer]

@@Tulkash01He certainly did! It's why I contacted Alfred to work on WFRP4. He's great.

[@KoryMalleus]

Malerion's old name was Malekith from the latin Mal bad, evil and old English kith friends or relations.

[@philipbowles5397]

All the focus on Estalia and Tilea made me wonder why Dogs of War aren't a supported faction from the start, as in the old book their generic army list was intended to represent the Border Princes and Tilea.

[@zodrickzheioh7318]

elves being inherently corrupted actually adds a lot to why they're so resistant to corruption and mutation and the like, you can't fall if you've already fallen

[@thegreatbookofgrudges6953]

11:00 13:20 19:50 22:40 24:19 26:20 29:25 31:45 33:50 34:38 36:10 37:45 40:50 50:34 56:50 58:30 1:02:26 1:02:40 1:05:28 21:30 44:48 45:18 46:14 49:00 1:03:48 1:04:28

[@milesg7877]

Nod and Wink, all is clear!

[@LAWhammer]

Thanks! :D

[@anvil_of_doom]

I always liked the idea of an alternative outcome, which is that forces of order prevailed and prevented the world destruction.

[@philipbowles5397]

Haven't listened to this yet, but is the Orcs being stowaways new? I wonder if this reverses decades of GW retconning the WFB-40k connection away (originally, as WFB had no real background until 40k was in preparation, WFB set up deliberate indications that the Warhammer World was in the 40k universe, but GW has since stated outright that it isn't), since it implies the Old Ones came from a universe where Orks both existed and were contemporary with the Old Slann.

[@thegreatbookofgrudges6953]

2:02:08 2:05:44 2:11:02 2:12:20 2:14:03 2:14:38 2:16:33 2:17:25 2:19:04 2:20:40 2:21:13 2:23:10

[@rellek4053]

Man… the lore that the humans were just there and the old ones gave them some toys right before leaving but left them largely alone was my favorite part. Now how do you explain drachenfels saying he was around before the old ones? Was he lying? That’s boring…

[@BronzedScorpion]

8 part stream?🤔

[@LAWhammer]

At least! ;)

[@abmong]

These new changes/clarification work out nicely for my fan lorecrafting for the Naga. Originally I thought they could be the original servants of the Old Ones, a race that predate the Slann and the Lizardmen (which is less plausible now that the Slann are confirmed to have come with the Old Ones), but I'd already abandoned that origin story in favour of making the Naga effectively corrupted half Old Ones, half Elf Amazons... Some maybe confused here, my reasoning is the Amazons are half Old Ones half Elf, at least Kalith is, she being the daughter of the Old One Rigg and Elf God Amex. How some Amazons became Naga is something happened to unlocked the Old One side of their genetics which had previously been blocked by the Old Ones themselves. In my headcanon Kalith is both mother of the Amazons who later also became the first Naga Queen, something the Amazons don't know about.

[@Living_with_Narcissists]

I actually like the fact that some sources say the first war against chaos was only daemons and others explicitly say otherwise. I like the idea that it became only Daemons by the end of the war, as these hordes of Chaos worshipers went "WTF ARE WE DOING??" towards the end. It's almost a running theme of the Chaos Gods to have given far too much power to those they shouldn't have trusted early on, and learning the hard way just how much they have to make their worshipers work for their gifts otherwise end up betrayed. Which makes sense if you think of their origins, I can't imagine they've had many demons (who are extensions of themselves) betraying them. The Dark Gods probably didn't even know what "betrayal" was. Maybe Tzeentch, I can see extensions of himself fighting each other, and it would be funny if while the other God's raged when their mortal servants turned on them, Tzeentch just went "Aha! I was prepared for this" and somehow planned on his worshipers losing their Magic or whatever once they turned traitor.

[@nagashtheundyingking4404]

honestly wouldn't suprise me if the shyama dying before the war was a change that happened between the story for total war and current releases still a great story tho. I just hope this is their current timeline and they are planning on adding to it as more and more reveals are coming out.

[@Oops-All-Ghosts]

I think there are basically two characters who it's okay to just say "[blank] is born," and those characters are Sigmar and Nagash. When you say it like that, without any further elaboration, it conveys that this character is important; their birth is, effectively, an epochal change all its own--independent of any title or description. Like, when you look at a wiki timeline for something you know nothing about, and you see "[blank] is born," that person is usually either a protagonist or an extremely major character. The issue w/ the way they did it for Nagash, imo, is that they skip from "Nagash is born" to "Nagash is an incredibly powerful wizard who is fucking around and being evil," without covering any parts of his life between those two points. I think it would have been okay to risk cluttering up the timeline a little with bits and pieces of his life in order to convey that. I know he's not strictly as important to the events of the story they're trying to tell here, but it's difficult to name more than one or two humans who had such an outsized impact on the history of the Old World (Sigmar is the obvious one). EDIT: Will say re: the complaint that often it's not clear what or who given events are about; one thing I quite liked about the Encyclopedia Eorzea, for Final Fantasy XIV's lore, is that they put the crest of arms for a city state next to entries in their time line in order to indicate who it was about or who was most directly affected. I know it's not a perfect solution since sometimes events affect multiple parties (or nobody at all), but it's better than having to constantly say "in the Empire" (or, worse, "in the lands that would later become recognized as the Empire;" that's awful) or "in Nehekhara" or whatever.

[@Oops-All-Ghosts]

Also I think they should have had an entry on the timeline saying "so and so declares success in an Errantry war to clear Brettonia of Orcs" every ten years or so.

[@LAWhammer]

I disagree. Both of those characters' names mean nothing to a new reader, an explanation, even the smallest of sub-clauses, goes a long way to aid the reading comprehension for newcomers, which this set should be considering with all of the development decisions made for its content given there is surely a hope that newcomers will come to the set. It is almost negligible for layout space, is also handy for existing fans as it recontextualises everything and also confirms those characters (and others) have not been changed for the new edition, and it makes the timeline read more smoothly. It's a no-brainer to me. A tiny extra that does a lot of heavy lifting.

[@LAWhammer]

@@Oops-All-Ghosts Hahah! Those Greenskins are just a pain. Generally, I agree that the recurring nature of the Greenskin tides should have been mentioned in several places in the timeline to ensure it was driven home how prevalent they are and how dangerous. Many, repeated errantry wars, perhaps added as a single entry, would have been one way to reinforce this.

[@Oops-All-Ghosts]

@@LAWhammer That's fair. This would all be so much easier if we could just figure out how to make hyperlinks work on paper, though.

[@LAWhammer]

@@Oops-All-GhostsGods, yes! That would make the game I'm currently writing an absolute breeze!

[@archmageeldran2567]

So nice episode and I am looking forward to seeing you cover the entire lore section of the book even if it takes multiple episodes. Regarding Nehek it doesn't really surprise me that he isn't mentioned because he is so overshadowed by the likes of Settra that it isn't even funny. I do hope however that in future TK stuff they do explore what Nehek did culturally for the faction and how his influence still affects them. I will also say regarding the Destruction factions that are playable it did feel like the timeline didn't really do much to add flavour to them in terms of showing their triumphs and characters. They felt more like random faceless armies instead which I do hope future content fixes. Chaos suffers from this especially in my eyes as they come across more like an evil from ancient times that has finally returned to cause havoc in modern times rather than something that has constantly plagued the Warhammer world which is odd considering they are a main playable faction. Granted this is just timeline stuff. While the HE stuff was skimmed over I do hope that they are still presented as being very skilled fighters rather than people holed up on an inland while others are doing the real fighting and scoring actual victories. That being said I am looking forward to seeing them in stories which aren't dominated by their rivalry with the DE, that aren't in the end part of plots by the DE (War of the Beard), or more explaining aspects of other factions designs like Teclis teaching the Empire magic and founding the colleges.

[@benjones3466]

just 15 mins in, an maybe there's further light shed on this, but if the destruction of of the world by chaos was at least foreseen and prepared for by the Old Ones, it raises questions I never had before about their absence. I just considered they had died & any that survived, or any that were just elsewhere in the universe, had decided to leave well enough alone because things went so badly for them. Essentially they were defeated. However, this raises a number of other possibilities in my mind, if this was at least somewhat foreseen. Could they simply have been observing all this time after their apparent defeat, waiting to see what happened out of a cold curiosity after having set things in motion? Could they in any way still influence things? Could they even return in AOS, now that this end result has been realised? I'm still generally of a mind to not know everything about the Old Ones, their mystery is their greatest asset, but just a small change in the lore can really shift the perspective.

[@philipbowles5397]

The latest Seraphon book has reconciled - or at least acknowledged - the oddity of the Mortal Realms being full of Old One artefacts, which previously seemed to require a separate generation of Old Ones as the Realms didn't exist until after the Warhammer World was destroyed. The implication is that the Old Ones seeded what would become the Mortal Realms - the Seraphon themselves were divided as to whether the Great Plan had failed or whether they still had a purpose to fulfil in the new world they found, but many now see the evidence of Old One activity in the Realms as a sign that the destruction of the Warhammer World was part of the Plan all along (or at least anticipated). And who knows if they have plans for worlds beyond the Mortal Realms (at least one prospective doomsday device has been seeded recently, with a countdown to the Clans Pestilens finding a full set of thirteen Great Plagues. They're currently hunting number 8). I think the idea that the Old Ones didn't all die is new to Old World, and they were more explicitly wiped out in older WFB, but it's possible it's a direction they went to accommodate the AoS lore.

[@MaloDiablo]

Great episode of Lorebeards, was really neat to hear about all the new changes (and you'r opinions on contradictions) looking forward to next episode! (P.S. I am also fine with Malerion switching names but he could honestly just continued being the Witch King, as he is the sole male magic, user I assume? In Naggeroth, or just been the dark or ashen phoenix king or something like the someone in the live chat mentioned, feel he is one of those characters that deserved some more love, especially since he goes on and becomes a freaking god in age of sigmar.. )

[@LAWhammer]

Thanks for the kind words. And I agree that including the 'Pheonix' title in there somewhere would have created a much stronger outcome than the 'Dread King' which is narratively empty.

[@Living_with_Narcissists]

Naming Malekith 'Malerion the Maibd/Maihd King' would have been clever, because it's what the dark elves call their witches.

[@monthlyscoopltd]

Where Nehek is he?

[@inspectorn]

1:20:00

[@philipbowles5397]

On a couple of your points: The Old World has been described as the focus for over 5 years, far longer than it would take to write this book - I don't imagine the Lizardmen stuff was left over from an earlier plan. It's just the bulk of the existing pre-2500s lore, and most of the changes you point out are pasted from the latest Age of Sigmar battletome. I think it's more that this is a copy-paste job for the most part and they simply haven't made any new lore for the focal factions that focuses on this time period specifically. Wood Elves I suspect they kept light on detail because fairies are meant to be mysterious - even in the old lore their stuff was fairly thin prior to 8th Edition, though there probably less deliberately than because they were mostly ignored. Regarding the Elder Races, this is a phrase we usually hear from Imperial humans, who date their civilisation to Sigmar and know that there are dwarf and elf nations that exist now which predate Sigmar's rise. I don't think it ever necessarily carried the implication that the species were older, but their societies were with anything like that degree of both sophistication and continuity - Cathay is an unknown to most Imperials and Nehekhara is long dead. It's much the same way China is often seen as an ancient civilisation to Westerners - China as a sophisticated society is no older than many others, but it has an imagined cultural and territorial continuity that goes back much further than European states, and, as with China from a Western perspective, the continuity in elven society imagined by elves and humans alike might well mask a less straightforward reality than the mythmaking suggests. It's key to Imperial mythology that Sigmar raised them from barbarism: to countenance anything else implies that Sigmar, himself a barbarian, was from a backward people and/or his achievement in civilising the Empire wasn't as great as his followers and successors want to believe.

[@That_Rat_Bastrd]

Malerikith the Edge-King, King of the 2 dimensional Edge-lords.

[@Rybakdochuja]

Would the context-thin timeline make more sense if it was placed at the end of the book, i.e. do other chapters fill in the blanks or clear up things somewhat? Because this reeks of a last-minute executive space swap by a not very hands-on lead editor.

[@anvil_of_doom]

Btw, Andy, I love your channel very much.

[@LAWhammer]

Thank you so much!

[@jamesr1371]

All hail Malaria the Itch King of Naggarond!

[@Blecco]

I'm still mad that the world becoming warmer with closing in to the sun wouldn't make dragons go into hybernation considering they are likely cold blooded creatures and even warm bloods do so when its colder not warmer I won't watch the entirety until I finish the book, but will comment as I go forward. One thing I didn't like that was implied in the creation myth was that the dwarves expanded into the darklands during the invasion of Chaos rather than before. It honestly feels weird to me, where it would make more sense to me that the Dawi Zharr were "abandoned" during that first wave where they hid. It made the Chorfs choice something that can be discussed. Maybe they were right, maybe they weren't, while in this version it would just make them straight up wrong.

[@philipbowles5397]

If I recall correctly the planet being moved closer to the sun is resurrecting lore that predates the current incarnation of the Lizardmen, and may go back to WFRP 1 - the Old Ones moved it when they arrived, as it was previously icebound and they needed something warmer. That was before the pre-Old One world was covered in dragons, of course.

[@Blecco]

@@philipbowles5397 the old world rulebook confirms it was the first generation slaan that did so.

[@inspectorn]

2:10:00

[@Rohrbach9250]

Queek. Soon-soon......

[@LAWhammer]

Yes! YEEEEES!

[@Zictive]

So do you guys think theyre going to rename Malekith in Total war to Malerion?

[@LAWhammer]

Possibly. Sotek thought not. I'm inclined to think it 'may' happen.

[@nagashtheundyingking4404]

doubt it he is in a lot of dialogue so they would have to get atleast 3 voice actors to return only to rerecord a few quest battles so doubt they will do it don't hate it if they do tho.

[@LAWhammer]

I think that may well be the biggest barrier to it actually happening,@@nagashtheundyingking4404

[@ShadySpinach]

Athletic frog men. So battletoads?

[@LAWhammer]

Kremlo is awesome, confirmed.

[@thegreatbookofgrudges6953]

Malerion the Chill King Crow King

[@LinkLegend0]

Thank ye loremastas.

[@fredslipknot9]

Looking forward to this weekend then

[@LinkLegend0]

​@@fredslipknot9aye matey

[@LAWhammer]

Thanks in return for watching!

[@That_Rat_Bastrd]

"playable faction" is a poor and misleading choice of words throughout.

[@goforitpainting]

Cool stream. I'm a new Sub on your channel 👍

[@Coerciveutopian]

GW really should have gotten you to to do QA before this book came out.

[@PatrickOMulligan]

I blame the name change on GW and their litigious nature. If they were not a goles and credited people openly they would not fear lawsuits.

[@GoldenKaos]

They would still fear lawsuits for 'Malekith, Witch King of the Dark Elves' once Marvel was bought by Disney, no matter how litigious they had been in the past and no matter how open they were with credits. Those factors are somewhat irrelevant to the issue to be honest. In the early 90's they were a relatively small and niche British company who were well under the radar of Marvel Comics. Today, as the biggest miniature company in the world who has just signed a deal with Amazon, they are still tiny compared to a megacorp like Disney but they are not under anyone's radar anymore. They have a duty to their shareholders to ensure they have no legal cracks in their armour. Malekith is a big one, and it's a no-brainer to seal it up.

[@LAWhammer]

The lack of credits upsets me. I would not be happy working on those books.

[@LAWhammer]

@@GoldenKaos Quite. Assuming I understand the problem correctly, you've summed it pretty neatly. And, again, I have no issue with the change. If I was running things and had to resolve the issue, I would do the same.

[@philipbowles5397]

@@GoldenKaos I hadn't known that's where Malekith came from until this comment prompted me to look it up (I did see the relevant Thor film but I'm not sure I recall the character even being named in that). It's not just GW that was small in the '90s. Marvel was a has-been manufacturer of failing comics at the time, and from a British perspective their take on Norse myth was very obscure - we knew of Spider-Man, Superman, Batman and The Incredible Hulk (and likely most neither knew nor cared that those were owned by competing companies), basically all them known primarily because they'd had TV or film tie-ins. A secondary villain from a minor superhero comic would have been a very deep cut. Likely GW when they greenlit the lore would have been completely ignorant of where the writers got the name from, and they were ramping up their efforts to break into the American market at the time.

[@philipbowles5397]

@@GoldenKaos Disney or Marvel have no claim on the title 'Witch King'. If that runs any risk of litigation, it's from the Tolkien estate. Only the name Malekith for a Dark Elf is conceivably actionable by Marvel. Given that the assorted name changes GW implemented a few years ago were directly the result of a threat from the Tolkien estate over the name 'Eldar', it's not altogether surprising they'd be especially cautious with Tolkienisms. Do you know what the origin of the High Elf star is? I noticed an identical version appears in the Rings of Power TV series and it would make sense for the icon to be from Tolkien's work, so I'm surprised they still get to use that. Then again they've managed to keep Moorcock's Chaos star long after removing most other iconography with origins in either other IPs or the real world.

[@paulbestwick2426]

Should the new Malekith have been called the Eldritch King ?

[@MaloDiablo]

I honestly think it would have been better then the "dread king" 😅

[@philipbowles5397]

What's wrong with him still being the Witch King? As I understand it the potential issue lies with his name being the same as a Dark Elf from another property who was created about a decade earlier (for all that being Dark Elves called Malekith seems to be all they have in common), not his title.

[@MaloDiablo]

@@philipbowles5397 well personally i dont think there is anything wrong with it, but they can't copy wright something from/that tolkien, so i assume they changed it so they can copy wright his title, which i personally find to be bad logic

[@philipbowles5397]

@@MaloDiablo I realised that after posting. I don't think the issue was ever GW wanting to copyright names, but fear of litigation from the Tolkien estate and maybe others. As the story goes, they changed the fantasy race names, as well as the Eldar and Dark Eldar, because the Tolkien estate threatened to sue over the use of the name Eldar to refer to space elves in the mid-2010s, since in Tolkien's lore 'Eldar' means 'space elves' . Personally I find that odd, since at that point the estate had already had an active license with GW for over a decade and must have been aware that GW had been calling space elves Eldar since the late 1980s. But that seems to have been behind a bunch of name changes mostly in AoS, and the original change of Malekith's name to Malerion came about at the same time so the new version is probably making it consistent with what AoS has been doing since 2015 rather than a new fear of litigation. The odd thing is that most of the names GW changed - ogre, orc, grot or goblin, lizardmen, dwarf, elf - weren't names that anyone could have sued them over anyway (yes, orcs, dwarfs and elves based on Tolkien's versions were original to him, but no one's ever been effectively sued for using those concepts). Grot was already original to GW so there was no need for the childishness of 'Gitz'. When the change was made Ogor and Orruk weren't used as faction names in any case so there was no value to copyrighting them, and they still have plenty of non-copyrightable race names like dryad, ghoul, zombie and vampire, as well as happily using older names within the text of lore and army books (Battletome Seraphon may call the creatures 'lizardmen' more often than it calls them 'Seraphon').

[@paulbestwick2426]

If GW don't like doing timelines, they could do worse than outsource it to Andy and Sotek.

[@LAWhammer]

As long as we were credited... :D

[@paulbestwick2426]

@@LAWhammer perhaps you should reach out and offer to work with them on an online timeline to sit on the Warhammer Community page. Your recompense a link to each of your You-tube channels ?

[@MantismanTM]

Malerion the Dread King - Warhammer. Balerion the Black Dread - Game of Thrones. Umm... 🤣 P.S. - I love you pair, I've watched everything the pair of you have made together and put all these Lorebeard episodes into a playlist, the replayability is just awesome!

[@Zictive]

I mean c'mon, there are only so many ways you can name a character before you end up sounding like someone else. At least Malerion sounds like a proper Elf name. It also sounds like Aenarion, so it would make sense his dad named him that. Also I don't think saying "it's the same thing as what they did with Malekith" is right. They literally copy pasted Malekith from Marvel 1 to 1. Heck they're both dark elves. You can't exactly compare Malerion, a Dark elf king, to Balerion a dragon 😂

[@LAWhammer]

Huh... I'm not sure if that was in mind when the name was made. Aenarion's son + 'Mal' for bad and to mirror the 'Male' of 'Malekith' equals 'Malerion' - it's a simple portmanteau of sorts. And Dread King is just a step up from the existing Dread Lords. But the similarity of what they ended on is not in question when compared to Balerion the Black Dread. But, in this instance, it feels like a coincidence, not a copy.

[@philipbowles5397]

@@Zictive From looking the Marvel character up online it's far from a copy-paste - GW took the name (and it seems highly unlikely that that was a coincidence rather than a genuine borrowing) but nothing in the characters' backstories, abilities or appearance are remotely similar beyond both being Dark Elves that essentially resemble the versions from Dungeons & Dragons.

[@zodrickzheioh7318]

I'll be honest, you guys keep commenting on certain things being weird and not lining up, but it makes sense, in the scenario that the various sections are all written by multiple authors. It sounds a lot like they got a couple of people together to write on certain things, and then someone just copied and pasted certain parts that they liked into their timeline section.

[@thegreatbookofgrudges6953]

Still no Khepris

[@LAWhammer]

Nope. No Khipris, and I imagine there never will be. :D

[@inspectorn]

2.30.00

[@Craby-YT]

Gs

[@LAWhammer]

Tks.

[@Sara3346]

Claims humans most succesful in fantasy 😅. Ignores the superior numbers and techbase of the skaven plus, you know breaking the moon and burrowing through reality...and contacting 40k. But sure humans most succesful.

[@PatrickOMulligan]

Malerion the Bad-Evil King

[@LAWhammer]

As I mentioned, I'm not against the name change, but I do not like the epithet they chose.

[@philipbowles5397]

@@LAWhammer Warhammer isn't exactly averse to comic book caricature villains - Nagash has always been basically Skeletor. Malekith giving himself 'evil' titles is pretty par for the course in a faction full of Dreadspears, Hags, Witch Elves, Dark Riders and all the rest.

[@wadou19]

666 likes slaanesh is pleased

[@MrAdrianlk]

Yall might really want to check those stats on whos getting college degrees. I cant really wrap my head around how anyone is going to be happy with equality+

[@charlesjameskelly7689]

Malarion the ashen king

[@inspectorn]

1:44:00