Babylon 5 Lore : Destruction of the Black Star

[@redshirt5126]

Lore: if the Minbari sensors were so powerful how the hell did they not know there were survivors on that ship? Me: forget that. i want to know how they didn't detect the nuclear warheads planted in the asteroid field.

[@LoreReloaded]

Son of a.. that's a /great/ question

[@casbot71]

Same thought, even Geiger counters would detect them, unless very heavily shielded, which they wouldn't be because they were repurposed warheads, not mines with countermeasures. But still, the blinking lights should have been a warning just by themselves.

[@seanheath4492]

At a guess, interference from the asteroids themselves and/or the debris field. Also, it's entirely possible that the Black Star's crew (or its CO, at any rate) had a serious case of tunnel vision: they had a disabled EarthForce ship in their sights, and they didn't think to check for any surprises. Enhanced senses (or sensors) are only useful if you pay attention.

[@dynamicworlds1]

To be fair, there would likely have been warheads scattered around the area from when the other nuclear armed ships were destroyed. Unlike chemical explosives, if they're not deliberately set off, being in another explosion generally just renders them inoperable.

[@redshirt5126]

Sean Heath Would have loved to see this battle from the perspective of the minbari crew. I think the crew did notice the nukes but perhaps they believed their jamming systems were sufficient to stop any signal from detonating the weapons.

[@RogueShadows]

The Lexington wasn’t “pretending” to be hurt, she genuinely was mostly disabled and a ship in distress at that point.

[@The_Gallowglass]

Even pretending to be hurt isn't cowardly, if you are going to continue the fight. They needed time to formulate a plan. They weren't going to get mercy from the Blackstar either way.

[@AmaranthOriginal]

Sterns died of a condition often known as "Pine Syndrome" in which the CO of a starship will die if exposed to a more important character's plot.

[@FascistPastry]

Actually, in In The Beginning you see Sterns mention in a line just prior to the Battle of the Line he was near retirement anyway. I just sort of inferred he retired after having survived The Earth Minbari War.

[@pollall2793]

Words cannot describe the love I have for this comment...

[@fighterck6241]

@@FascistPastry Oh nooo. You never mention retirement before engaging in a potentially dangerous situation.

[@Torlonus]

"Your defeat of the Blackstar was a cowardly move" "Your ship was returning to destroy a crippled ship and leave no survivors!"

[@chrissonofpear3657]

Butt hurt Warrior Caste strike again...

[@thejaredmyers]

And I'm sorry I waited as long as I did before I blew them all straight to Hell! (different episode but Sheridan had some epic one liners!)

[@Torlonus]

It's the thought that counts.

[@thejaredmyers]

Torlonus lol

[@CanuckGod]

It's funny how well that quote (directed to the Centauri) works here too. Speaking of that episode, after seeing John Vickery as the quite creepy Mr. Welles, Neroon doesn't seem quite as bad :)

[@RobertGrif]

Schwarzkopf was an AMERICAN general! How have you not heard of him? He commanded our forces in the Gulf War! ... did I do it? Am I in the cool "rag on Lore Reloaded" crowd?

[@Yawgmothx]

Robert G dude, thank you. I love the lore but man i hate when kids don’t remember the 1990s.

[@CanuckGod]

Seriously, I'm not even American and I can remember Stormin' Norman. Then again, I was a teenager at the time, and it was all over the news in Canada.

[@Norbert_Sattler]

Apart from the historic aspects, it's not Russian, but German and literally translated it would mean "Blackhead".... also it's the name of a company producing Shampoo, hair dye and such. I wonder if the founder of Schwarzkopf (the company) was related to the General.

[@labeld]

Yeah, that bugged me at first... I have always assumed Lore was a teenager like me in the 90's and definitely would have remembered good 'ol Stormin Norman Swarzkopf.

[@podemosurss8316]

Also it's a German name.

[@anndra8687]

Genocidal conquerors always seem surprised at the lengths people will go to to avoid being slaughtered. I don't think this was a cowardly move on Sheridan's part. He was just fighting them like they were fighting the humans.

[@mikeb6572]

True. Saying it was a cowardly act is stupid.

[@BobBelson]

boxleitner made some money...

[@matthewcaughey8898]

The Minbari just didn’t like finding out that when our backs are against the wall humans will become progressively more savage in defense of our homes and our lives

[@althesilly]

The line “I never wanted to live forever anyway” is The slight twist on the question “do you want to live forever” which is said in Starship Troops. But it originates from a US Marine during WW1 as he charged into no-mans land to rally his fellows. The US forces were often noted for being stupidly brave when they entered WW1.

[@hagamapama]

The Ozzies loved the Yanks though. They loved that the Yankee still had the gusto to go right at 'em The highest ranking Australian, Sir John Monash, deliberately preferred to have American and Australian units working together, with the Australian units to accomplish specific objectives and the Americans to make up the numbers and provide their strength and enthusiasm, a rare commodity in the war at this stage. With the Aussies striking vulnerable points with practiced precision, and the Americans following up en masse and shooting everything that moved, they quickly secured their objective. Monash was a genius level tactician and the brilliant success of his small US-Australian offensive more or less created modern combined arms. Other officers started using his tactics and the war quickly began to turn against Germany.

[@lgmmrm]

1Sgt. Daniel Daly. Awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor twice, and should’ve been awarded a third but they didn’t think people would believe one man capable of that much heroism. His quote was actually "For Christ's sake, men-come on! Do you want to live forever?"

[@ManicPandaz]

Didn't the Mimbari flyer pretty much do the same thing as the human cruiser? They both pretended to be defenceless only to draw the enemy into a trap. The only difference is one was pretending to surrender and the other was pretending to be hurt. Arguably, lying about surrender should be more dishonest then pretending to be more hurt then you are, especially when the humans would be killed anyway. I think the Mimbari are just sore losers.

[@LoreReloaded]

The intent of the attacker means something to.. The Alliance wanted to capture them, the minbari wanted to straight up murder them

[@ManicPandaz]

Very true.

[@Sherool]

Yeah calling it cowardice was just warrior caste hypocrisy and even other non-warrior Minbari though they where too full of themselves. The warrior case just hate to loose, they can tolerate to be bested by a superior fighter in single combat, but to loose to an inferior foe due to trickery really tilt them (and it happened to a the flagship of all things), even if they employ the exact same tactics themselves, because they love to win. This is echoed elsewhere in the movie as well. The warriors where dragging their heels on investigating rumors of the Shadows returning, the prospect of fighting horrible space demons didn't scare them obviously, no no, just a waste of time, they obviously where just myths despite them having electronic records of the previous war. When the chance came to fight a technologically inferior race instead presented itself however they enthusiastically where all for it.

[@RelativelyBest]

Lying about surrendering in order to set up an ambush is, in fact, a war crime in real life. Makes sense if you think about it: If people kept doing that, nobody would trust a request to parlay meaning nobody ever gets to surrender, which is bad for everyone.

[@sylph4252]

@@Sherool the other castes were only told that he planted nukes on asteroids and sent out a distress call to lure the Black Star in. Without the context I don't blame them

[@andrewgilbertson5672]

Wait wait wait... it was a cowardly attack to destroy the Blackstar with a nuke while pretending to be damaged to lure them into a trap... but destroying an earth-fleet with a hyperspace window because they were closing in on a Mimbari fighter that was pretending to be damaged to lure them into a trap was entirely honorable? WTF??? Hypocrite much? I am beginning to hate the Mimbari more and more.

[@Optimusprime240]

Every nation does this, even irl. In WW1, the German Empire broke established rules of war and introduced chemical warfare to the trenches. Later when America ebtered the war, they used pump action shotguns that were so effective in trench fighting they called them "Trench Sweepers". The Germans immediately cried foul play and dishonorable.

[@mountainjew1474]

​​@@Optimusprime240 plus unrestricted submarine warfare

[@rurrjh]

Schwartzkopf. after the US general in the gulf war... the black one in German..family had connections with the Linberg baby... Also asteroid fields are huge

[@LoreReloaded]

Gotcha

[@Wyrd80]

Schwarzkopf literally translates to "black head" As in: A head full of black hair. It is actually a rather popular brand of hair care-products here in Germany. Which always made the name hilarious to me. Just imagine "EAS Head&Shoulders standing ready"

[@rurrjh]

Lore Reloaded I wonder if the Sun ran that headline in Universe. Sorry that is for the Brits

[@JosephWiess]

Wyrd80, Whereas my family name was translated from the German Wiess. Which from my research referred to White hair. Wiess meaning White....

[@chrissonofpear3657]

Wasn't this same ship in the episode GROPOS? Or was it another Nova-class?

[@dukoth6552]

also a note about the Mimbari being mad and calling it a dishonorable act: the creator of the show JMS points out the hypocrisy of this statement given the Blackstar was doing the exact same thing luring earth ships into predetermined locations and ambushing them before they could react

[@dynamicworlds1]

Yeah, the warrior caste no longer really holding up to their ideals is a recurring pattern in the show.

[@CanuckGod]

Honestly, the Minbari can go f--- themselves if they're going to whine about the Blackstar, considering they attack and/or destroy defenseless enemies without any remorse. Off topic, though, why do half the posts I see online call them the Mimbari? Please learn to spell, it's Minbari with an N.

[@podemosurss8316]

@@CanuckGod Ortography. Usually m goes before p or b in several languages.

[@CanuckGod]

@Podemos URSS Fair enough, but unless they have a specific localized dub of their own language that changes the name of the Minbari to something other than the English version, it's not correct, it's just lazy, orthography be damned. As it is, I'd wager that a sizeable percentage of posters are native English speakers who just aren't paying enough attention. In any event, I'll take off my grammar Nazi hat and leave it alone for the time being...

[@MATTIUS]

star trek fans have problems with emotional responses.

[@tcostisi]

Uh, dude, Norman Schwartzkopf was an American hero during the 90's.

[@LoreReloaded]

Ahh cool...its also a German name..making the joke even funnier

[@captmoroni]

Lore Reloaded Stormin' Norman. Still, comforting to see the KZbin comment section is still the same...

[@defiantance]

captmoroni I tried to give him a link to help him pronounce the name. I also believe The Lore Master was too young when Desert Storm happened.

[@tomsmith5584]

General "Stormin'" Norman Schwartzkopf was the commanding general at Fort Lewis, Washington (now Joint Base Lewis McCord) when my brother served there during the late 1980s. They called him, "the alphabet guy". He became famous as commander of allied troops during Operation Desert Shield/Desert Storm in 1990/1991.

[@CanuckGod]

Yeah, I was about to say "Really? German names are Russian now?" As I recall from my youth, his name was in the news a lot at the time of the Gulf War, even in Canada.

[@Tezunegari]

The Blackstar having escorts is a continuity error. Sheridan explains the battle to Ivanova and states the Blackstar had three heavy destroyers with it. The scene from "In the Beginning" only shows the Blackstar though.

[@LoreReloaded]

Right..that's the dialogue I reference

[@Tezunegari]

Lore Reloaded Sheridan is famed for destroying the Blackstar and not the Blackstar fleet... so to me the Blackstar was alone as some sort of behind-enemy-lines harrassment or recon to scout the system. Or if any other source proves their existence they might have returned after Earthforce got rescued and only found the wreckage of the Blackstar. Would explain why Earthforce didn't get their hands on the wreck... the destroyers pulverised it into slag so that their technology doesn't fall into enemy hands.

[@chrissonofpear3657]

There was unresolved issues from that line. The remaining ships may have been destroyed by one of the bombs that drifted out of range, and were not used.

[@dynamicworlds1]

@@Tezunegari "only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Mimbari fleet" highly suggests it was the Black Star fleet

[@andreaswidham3607]

Lightning Count offered the suggestion that the battle had one more stage. After Sheridan destroyed the Blackstar, Earthforce ships finally responded to his distress call. With these additional ships he set a second ambush and lured in the Blackstar's escorts with another distress call, and maybe they were wondering where the Blackstar went. In this way it remains complaint with both movie and series as he managed to destroy several more cruisers with little loss of life. This would also make more of an actual victory since instead of losing 3-4 ships to destroy one Minbari War cruiser, albeit an important one, he managed to destroy more tonnage then he lost. Because while Earthforce would destroy Minbari warcruisers in the future, that was a feat no one would be able to do again.

[@michaeld.uchiha9084]

It was a tactical ambush, i cant see any coward move. Its the Art of War.

[@LoreReloaded]

How do you feel about killing people who cant defend themselves ?

[@michaeld.uchiha9084]

@@LoreReloaded After killing tenthousands of people the minbari complain about that. War is hell and it was a primary and military target so what. Even in real life no war crime.

[@chriss2031]

What you feel is irrelevant, your job in a war is to end the enemies militarys existance. If they are on a WARSHIP they are valid targets, defenseless or not, noone forced them to serve ona Warship going to war. ( I hope)

[@richardistvanthier5620]

Those who have set up the original trap have complained they did fall into an other trap. Aha... Also no warrior is defenseless. If you out-think them that is not different from you being stronger by pure force. Hungarians were known for similar tactics of ambushes. In our way we made it look like a complete chaotic retreat so the enemy started to follow us with completely broken line. Then you run into a well prepared place where your sideforces attack the enemy and your running people turn around in the saddle to shoot arrows while still running. Without these kind of acts you never gonna spare manpower in wars. Why would you ever wage a dumb war? They killed soldiers - not civilians. They killed enemies who came to annihilate them. What more you want?

[@christophernemeth421]

Its like the Bismark. It's too valuable a target not to destroy it

[@EQINOX187]

Game: John Nukem Sheridan has entered the game. Rest of the players: aww hell

[@travisgames6608]

This is the best comment lmao

[@diogenesesenna9323]

He also spaced a Teddy Bear.

[@The_Gallowglass]

Hey, if you're gonna die, bang the enemy a few times first. Amirite?

[@philgiglio9656]

The real traitor to Earth was William Clarke. Not once but twice..."Scorched Earth."

[@LoreReloaded]

I would agree

[@ironstarofmordian7098]

The line from Starship Troopers was actually a real quote from a Marine sergent during the Battle of Belleau Wood

[@LoreReloaded]

indeed

[@itskarl7575]

And the Flash Gordon movie. It's not like it's a difficult quote to think of independently.

[@robertmartinu8803]

Inconsistencies and weirdness: Remember that we see the battle within a narration by Londo. He wasn't there - he tells the children what he had heard from centauri intelligence and the media. In the context of a story meant to entertain and convey a rough idea of what had happened, not as an accurate historical account. In universe "In the Beginning" is basically a fairy tale! ;) Sheridan's version was only talked about, but he has first person knowledge. That one might cause less raised eyebrows.

[@shadowmystery5613]

Lol the Centauri are so corrupt I'd figure their Secret Intelligence Services are just as effective as the KGB - You hear what you're supposed to hear. So if you fuck up it can be used against you.

[@Modified67]

As my Dad told me, "There is no 'fair' in fighting. There's a winner and there's a loser. You DON'T want to be the loser."

[@The_Gallowglass]

Depends who you're fighting. The Humans and Minbari hadn't really known each other pre-contact and when the fighting broke out all they knew of each other was on the battlefield.

[@shadowmystery5613]

_My dad also told me: "Never start a war my son, but always end it."_

[@kennethmelnychuk9737]

Amazing how sound (weapons fire) makes a sound in the vacuum of space.

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

01:05 Swartzkopf is a German name and was the name of the US General in command during the first Gulf War. He was a totally real person and very, very famous when B5 was on the air. 03:22 I suspect they were hoping to capture a Minbari ship intact. But, I agree that is not clear. 07:46 Didn't you just answer your own question a moment ago? The Blackstar knew there were survivors and were waiting for a distress call. So they knew Lexington had survivors, planned on using that very fact.

[@LoreReloaded]

Yea some have said that on the German name. Very cool. And I had a theory but didnt say it was solid

[@XC3758]

I agree on the intact capture theory. Up until that point, the EAS could only examine debris, so to have an intact ship with all it's targeting and "stealth" (or ability to confuse EAS sensors) capabilities would be a HUGE benefit to Earth. Along the same lines as what happened in 1953 with the three MIG-15's (two were flown to Denmark from Poland and one from North Korea to South), or 1976 when Viktor Belenko flew his MIG-25 to Japan to give NATO first hand up close look at it's internals and capabilities.

[@khartog01]

All war is based on deception. Sun Tzu.

[@Gigas0101]

I wouldn't trust Sun Tzu, he loaded a bunch of animals up onto a boat and kicked the crap out of them. Now whenever a number of different animals are contained in the same place it's called a "Tzoo". Unless it's a farm.

[@markperry2827]

Exactly. Any educated person would have seen this. Why i left the military. PC idiots in charge. If ever put in an even battle pc idiots always lose.

[@badlaamaurukehu]

Best to stick to Clausewitz. Maybe a bit of Machiavelli...

[@Th0ughtf0rce]

@@markperry2827 they probably dream of the day where literal basement dwelling PC (personal computer) gamers can fly drones, bomb the enemy and be heroes.

[@orutakawatenga8820]

I see the Earth/Mimbari war being akin to garter snakes fighting cobras & the Black Star's destruction akin to a garter snake getting a lucky nip on a cobra's carotid.

[@Andrews__YT]

Could we ascribe any differences in the depiction of this battle between "In the Beginning" and Sheridan's description of it in "Points of Departure" to the fact that the events shown in "In the Beginning" are framed by old man Londo's retelling of the Earth-Minbari war to a couple of kids? The events shown in "In the Beginning" might just be Londo's best understanding of what went on, based on what facts or rumours he's heard in his career from ambassador to prime minister to emperor. In other words, is it possible we're not seeing in "In the Beginning" what actually happened, but just a representation of Londo's telling of the story?

[@marcmielke]

He knew about Minbari souls transferring to Human bodies?

[@Andrews__YT]

@@marcmielke Well, that's the question, isn't it? How much of In the Beginning is a dramatisation of the story Londo is telling the kids, and how much of it is just a framing device and we're seeing what actually happened? If he did know about the human-Minbari connection, I've no idea how he'd have learned of it. But then he knew Lennon had been summoned by the Grey Council, and I've no idea how he'd have learned of that, either. Up to viewer interpretation, I suppose.

[@Grz349]

Just to point out 7:10 the forage shows at least 2 nova which weren’t mentioned in the breakdown

[@barrybend7189]

Oh about Franklin I see his point being if he created a plague for the minbari he would not know if it could easily jump to humans and other races. And I kinda see an I told you so moment with the Drak plague in Crusade. Also Franklin was stubborn to a fault when it came to his medical code.

[@LoreReloaded]

Makes sense.. I look forward to your thoughts on the next video I do regarding babylon 5 and Franklin;)

[@chrissonofpear3657]

Hippocratic oath, remember...

[@barrybend7189]

@@LoreReloaded I will say the same thing as humans and Minbari are genetically viable for breeding.

[@LoreReloaded]

What good is an oath if everyone is dead? Hard to explain to a mother with a dead baby in her arms why you didnt prevent that death over an oath

[@barrybend7189]

@@LoreReloaded I know but EA generals were asking for virus weapons and if the 1918 flu epidemic taught us anything they are nasty things to deal with and can jump to other species in weeks. Think the damage that the flu did but on a galactic scale and a thousand times as deadly.

[@raw6668]

On the Episode that Sheridan was introduced into Babylon 5, Season 2 Episode 1, he stated that he destroyed four Minbari Cruisers, including the Black Star with his task force by tricking them into the asteroid field to kill them, something he set up days before the battle. Which is why I say it is hard to say the movie is canon since it contradicts what he says and honestly makes him less of the military leader we see in the show. To fix that, I would have the Earth Alliance fleet detect a small Minbari fleet come their way in an intimidation fashion towards a colony they are protecting. They retreat in the last minute to make the Minbari think they are cowards and chase them into an asteroid field minded days before the battle in preparation for an eventual encounter with the Minbari. It would work well with Babylon 5 as it gives both good and bad reasons that are not petty. For, on one hand, the Minbari are right Sheridan did not fight fair as he lured their fleet into a trap. But on the other hand, he was fighting for survival and used their own pride against them, which shows a truly skilled warrior. As opposed to Minbari portray preforming cowardly surprise attack against an enemy with no chance of victory even in a fair fight and crying foul when their surprise attack was turned against them when they went to finish off a supposedly defenseless enemy.

[@Revkor]

the movie was made by the creator of the show so one of those thigns he forgot.

[@raw6668]

+ Revkor Or did not have the budget or time to show the battle as orginally described in the show.

[@magical_catgirl]

The movie is also in universe story told by Emperor Londo Mollari to a pair of kids a few hours before he died, 35 years after the war. It is not meant to be a fully accurate account. It is based on what Mollari knows what happened.

[@Grz349]

I think I remember him saying he destroyed several ship that came to investigate at one point

[@DLordSadow]

It should be noted that the character of Sheridan was introduced unexpectedly by JMS. He basically had to make up the back story for him on the fly. Consider what Sheridan said about that battle in the first episode we see him as a rough draft of his backstory. What was seen in ‘In the Beginning’ the final, definitive version. It was just the Blackstar alone slaughtering Earth ships. Also, while inferred from dialogue in ‘In the Beginning’ but not directly said there, the battle actually didn’t take place in Sol. I read that in a book I don’t have handy this moment. As for why the Bkackstar left the scene, well the Earth ships were there for a reason, the Blackstar likely was striking whatever objective the EA ships were defending.

[@ztyran]

11:53 Actually they're wrong by virtue of the fact the Lexington WAS hurt. I checked the scene and they set up the bombs as a precaution while calling for help sure they could limp away, but they needed help to get back to Earth. Basically it was self-defense, meaning the Minbari don't have a leg to stand on. Further compounding the situation was they did something similar FIRST, having a fighter draw the enemy in for an ambush. So basically at worst it's a case of "Pot meet Kettle".

[@magical_catgirl]

Earth had heaps of victories in the war. The victory over the Black Star was only different in that the attacking Earth ship survived. pyrrhic victories are still victories. :P

[@TechnoMageB5]

Reminds me of Ivanova mentioning "the bonehead maneuver" in S3E1. Good point.

[@matthewcaughey8898]

You gotta use every opportunity you get when your opponent is more advanced then you.

[@TheBamaChad-W4CHD]

Great video as always. You always surprise me with your ability to make a good in depth video on topics that are hard to get in depth with. I've watched everything and anything Babylon 5 and I would have thought there wasn't much info on this battle. You (as well as SpaceDock) made great videos on this and many more subjects. Kudos LoreMaster, kudos.

[@waltermc3906]

The battle with the Black Star is a perfect example of what it is like when an Attacker ( Shariden) rolls a natural 20 critical success, and the enemy ( Black Star) rolls a natural 1 critical failure. In explainable terms..... The First Nuke detonated at very close range, just as the Black Star's Weapons were powering up and firing. This caused an overload in the ships weapons systems causing them to blow. the damage done by this chain reaction was enough to weaken the Black Stars defenses to the point where the second detonation was enough to destory the ship.

[@TheKeyton777]

Yeah..I know But, Swartzkopf is German...not Russian

[@Stephanthesearcher]

and the name of the US commanding general of the first irak war

[@Yawgmothx]

Dude, you tryin. And you talkin bout b5. Good on ya. Star Killer for President.

[@neogeo227]

Best line after this... Delenn "only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari Feet, he is behind me you are in front of me. If you value your lives be some where else" Human fleet runs away like little kids.

[@Spencer_Beard]

Bravo, LR, 👏 👏. I am a B5 die hard, and thia was immensely entertaining. Thank you.

[@matthewdavies2057]

You missed: "Good morning gentlemen. This is your wakeup call. BOOM!" One of the best lines in television history.

[@davetycho8330]

Minbari ship pretends to be crippled to lure a fleet of Eartthforce ships into a trap. Complains when Earthforce uses the same tactics against them.

[@edwardlecore141]

"hell, I didn't want to live forever anyway," you missed that this was ironic, giving that he does live forever.

[@scottperry7311]

The pilot of thst single Starfury was Ivanova's older brother I believe.

[@Aenarion28]

Ganya Ivanova

[@jasonulysess3652]

One hundred years and two months ago, one of the most highly decorated marines of U.S. history kicked down a door while under fire an yelled to his fellows "Come on you apes, you want to live forever!" That more where the phrase comes from.

[@sdmurphy315]

While I don't support genocide of an race or species I will say this. In a war that should of never happened in the first place had the right captain been sent to do first contact or close encounter mission. Also, Dr. Franklin standing for his morals and doctor/patient ethics I think is something to be proud of for the character. Genocide for Genocide doesn't make you any better. That would of been like killing all or most of the Germans for what the Nazi party did to the Jewish peoples of Europe. And Sheridan setting nukes as mines was genius. Guerrilla tactics in an all out war against a superior force is and always has been the only card to play.

[@marcusanton95]

Besides even if the humans had developed a lethal bioweapon exactly how were they going to deploy it? Weapons lock, oh yeah they couldn't get a lock so really it would have been a useless weapon. Survival at any cost such as becoming your enemy isn't survival it's cloning (for lack of better word).

[@brothergrimace3859]

I take offense to you saying of Sheridan's attack plan 'it WAS a cowardly act'. Excuse me. Considering the fact that the Mumbai were fighting a holy war of extermination against humanity and were known for killing even the wounded in every confrontation, decrying an effective tactic that made them pay for their own genocidal tactics sounds like support for the Mumbai. As General Lefcourt said, "They paid the price." I'm glad you agree that the Mimbari got what they deserved because it was an act of war - but you really do need to remove that 'cowardly act' line. Remember, the war was started by accident and misunderstandings... and if we're to be honest, Delenn is SOLELY responsible for the entirety of the Earth-Mimbari War - as hers was the deciding vote against moderation and seeking out the truth behind what happened into the unfortunate encounter that caused Dukhat's death.

[@casbot71]

Best tactic, couple of shots to disable the fighter straight away, grab it, jump out and reverse engineer the shit out of its sensors.

[@davidioanhedges]

10 years of cooperation with the Minbari after the war.... and they earth guns still couldn't lock on ... the technology was so far head they couldn't easily reverse engineer it ...

[@Janoha17]

@@davidioanhedges I suspect Vorlons.

[@barrybend7189]

Its comforting to see Suika every time you get angry.

[@AaronRedding]

got to love those amiga generated graphics that bab 5 used

[@MATTIUS]

the first on thew planet to use cgi in a show

[@Lennis01]

It was also an excellent example of how quickly cgi was evolving at the time. There was a world of difference between Season 1 and Season 5 in visuals. Crusade looked better still, though that show wasn't on long enough to really appreciate it.

[@KaneinEncanto]

I think the Black Star was trying to double down on their ambush. First the flier pretended to have issues to lure the fleet in, and blow most of it away, intentionally leaving surviving ships so they would broadcast an SOS. Finish them off, and then wait for a fleet to come, having been called there by the SOS. Hence their advanced sensors "not noticing" there were still functional ships left.

[@barrybend7189]

Nukes the best deep space weapon.

[@supsup335]

Not really. Only as deep penetrators, not contact explosion

[@dynamicworlds1]

Nah, just passable. Nukes mainly rely on an atmosphere to do their full damage, so you need to get surprisingly close to one for it to knock you out. I mean chemical explosives are even more useless, but still.

[@sirhenry9313]

To be honest, anything that relies on concussive force, inhalation, proximity, direct contact (ie no ship hulls) or air as a transport medium (ie most weapons in sci-fi) miss the basic understanding that space is HUGE and basically EMPTY. LOL

[@dynamicworlds1]

@@sirhenry9313 correlary: Any explosive projectile weapon is a cheap substitute for a relativistic one

[@sirhenry9313]

@@dynamicworlds1 oh yes and it wouldn't be modern sci-fi without big orange explosions of fire... Even if that's not realistic outside of an atmosphere...

[@wangbot47]

I loved this sequence in the show

[@UncleMikeDrop]

Warrior "codes of honor" are stupid and can be extremely hypocritical. The Mimbari had every conceivable advantage and were pursuing a genocidal campaign yet somehow the Warrior Caste had the audacity to demand a stand up fight. The entirety of the Mimbari stradegy was defined by universally avoiding stand up fights. Their stealth systems alone serve as evidence to that affect. It's easy to demand a stand up fight when your enemy can't even get a targeting solution on your ships. Their claims of cowardice make about as much sense as the United States bringing the full force of its military might down upon Mexico and then complaining when the locals employ guerilla tactics.

[@robertagu5533]

Mike Vasquez true but American never tried to EXTERMINATE down to the last man, woman and child a whole race. An whenever someone says "i surrender" since banning unrestricted war vast majority of US forces dont shoot the other side. We'll watch them closely and expecr a trick but vast majority of us arent even comfortable with shooting surrendering people. The Mimbari had no apparent issue with slaughtering EVERYONE wether they could, did, was armed or not, or even surrendering.

[@UncleMikeDrop]

@@robertagu5533 clearly, but I was referring solely to the disparity in capability.

[@giganticbrittle]

"Do you want to live forever?" Is a Marine quote from WW1. 5,000 Marines died very shortly after this phrase was coined. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Daly

[@Tezunegari]

Schwarzkopf is a german name... it translates to Blackhead...

[@LoreReloaded]

...part of the joke

[@rurrjh]

Lore Reloaded Yes, you do not know many Russians do you..

[@LoreReloaded]

Nor german ones apparently !

[@chrissonofpear3657]

Which was the ship in GROPOS? Wasn't that the same one?

[@tulsaviolet]

Named after The US General who commanded the US and Allied forces in the first Gulf War.

[@callukcraft]

great video and man don't put your work down , your videos are always great fun.

[@peake8146]

I still prefer 'John "Nuke'Em" Sheridan' which Boxleitner's own nickname for his role.

[@SlicerJen]

That small fighter acted like it had a flameout to draw them in...guess cowardice is a two edged sword.

[@scottperry7311]

Interestingly, Sheriden uses the tactic two other times. He bring 2 500 kt bombs to Zahadum abourd a Whitestar and crashes the ship into the biggest city on the planet. Then in the final battle between the Alliance, Shadows and Vorlons he used Nuks hidden in Astroids, to get the attention of both the Shadows and Vorlons to end the Shadow war. Nothing subtle about Sheriden he loved nukes, or should we call him Nukem Sheriden.

[@nathanielhellerstein5871]

I call him Megaton Sheridan.

[@williamlewis8453]

Love how he lost his shit there...lol

[@michaellewis1545]

As for the who wants to live forever. That date backs to World War one. When I the Marines attacking Bellawood.

[@LoreReloaded]

I'm sure every thing comes from something else

[@pgwchaos]

Lore Reloaded The movie/book is quoting Dan Daly (the person who said the quote, and one of the few people to be awarded the Medal of Honor twice). So it is still correct in a way.

[@Zimtastic]

Which is itself an either knowing or unknowing reference to Frederick the Great's "Dogs! Would you live forever?" exhortation to his guardsmen in the battle of somewhere-or-other in Austria in the 18th century. Which who knows, was maybe a reference to someone else we don't remember now

[@sword4005]

the thing i always found interesting about this battle was not the battle itself but how the minbari warrior caste would have such a tantrum about this for years too come

[@darkshamrock1980]

"You beat us! How dare you!" What a bunch of pussies.

[@chrisdufresne9359]

They really were sore losers

[@KellyStarks]

Like your reasoning (especially about how nuts the Mibar complaints were. But then this is a race vain about their discipline and honor, who went on a war of genocide when one of their ships with a VIP on it bungled a first contact. Really the series never dealt with the fact that the Minbari would be pariahs in the galaxy. The high tech race with the morals of rabid animals. They who for one skirmish, committed themselves to racial genocide, and complained when the victims did stand and die in a dignified way. (Hell, thinking about it. Folks would reasonably trust and align with the Shadows out of fear of the Minbari.) The battle was always kind of sketchy. Jumping out leaving some alive as bait makes sence, but at that point wouldn't all Earth know the Minbari were doing that to draw in more victims.

[@techmage89]

Well, the whole war was *really* unusual for the Minbari as far as the other races were concerned. They were pretty insular, and the other races didn't mess with them because of how powerful and generally disinterested in the other races they seemed to be. It's likely the war was seen by many as the sad consequence of human arrogance, and the Minbari as something akin to a force of nature, that can't be reasoned with. And they *did* have a tough time finding allies to fight the Shadows. If they hadn't had Sheridan on their side, it's likely they would have had very few allies indeed.

[@critter30002001]

The additional ships are from the dialogue in the show when he is explaining the attack to Ivanava. He said they destroyed the Black Star and several other cruisers. I guess the guys making the movie later decided to cut the other ships to make it simpler for viewers who hadn’t seen the shows first.

[@wayfaringman8418]

Love the shade you threw at the doctor.

[@TaliaIGhul]

Between the destruction of the Black Star and the destruction of the Third Space gate, John had earned the moniker, John "Nuke-em" Sheridan.

[@Coolman13355]

Plus you know all those times in the Shadow War.

[@sirhenry9313]

A: love the doctor who quote at the end. B: the destruction of the black star, while called cowardly by totalitarian militaristic dishonerable supremitists (aka minbari), was not cowardly at all. It was a tactical decision by desperate men and women. The supremitists just couldn't get over the loss so reverted to childish name-calling, and I honestly would have loved that to be called out more in the series.

[@t4rv0r60]

hi lore reloaded, i´m sci fi fan since i was a kid, and the first time i watched spacedock, i thought "man i know nothing" your work is also fine, i like how you rewind at some points and change what you were actually saying.

[@johnpatz8395]

Was it just me, or did Sheridan look like he was praying that someone had a better idea? 😄

[@Knuspermonster]

Tbh..... i think its normal to be like this in that Sitaution....they basicly looked certain death in the eye with a rly small glance of hope and a plan that was basicly insane....... love that lil bit of acting.....makes him more human

[@spiffcats]

My question is, if there was no gravity, how did the steel beams fall on the captain.

[@the_hwyman]

A classic case of the kettle calling the pot black. The Minbari start the encounter by using a (seemingly) crippled ship to lure the Earth ships into a trap. The encounter ends by the Humans using an actually crippled ship to lure the Minbari into a trap. Turnabout is fair play.

[@herrzimm]

The reason for the capital ships pursuing a single flier is because they had to maintain some kind of distance to their own fighter to recover it later. Plus, you don't stop your overall patrol orders just to figure out what one vehicle is doing. And as with every conflict of any form, it is harder to hit a moving target than a stationary one. Scientifically speaking, there is also the concept of stopping and starting movement in general requires massive amounts of energy. Changing speeds is one thing. Stop/start however uses massive forces, meaning massive fuel.

[@snooze821]

I never understood the minbari argument about cowardice since they pretended their fighter was disabled in the first place to trigger the first trap. They fell for there own trick.

[@TerranceChilds-ui8nh]

The vessel is named after Norman Schwarzkopf a general in the United States army

[@LoreReloaded]

Yup

[@xoberonx]

Glad you're finally doing some B5

[@ig33ku]

7:03 the Earth ships went into the field and the Minbari thought that they splatter themselves or they will call for help but either best to wait and see. Note: for anyone if your ass is in the way of the opening hyperspace they will take damage hence why it is always projected in front of the ships. Kinda like the splash of the rings in Stargate.

[@joshkarpoff3341]

Just a point of information, "Starship Troopers" debuted in theaters in November 1997 and "Babylon 5: In the Beginning" aired in early January 1998, meaning that they were probably both in production and editing at roughly the same time and thus more than likely came to the line independently. Unless the line is in the original Heinlein novel, which I don't think it is, because the novel tends to be very inner monologue.

[@LoreReloaded]

They both apparently got it from another book which got it from a battle in world war 1.. or so many commenters have stated

[@sparrowlt]

The "multiple mimbari ships" came from Sheridan statement of the battle in his introduction where he claimed there were Minbari ships and he destroyed 4 of them (the Drala-Fi and 3 other cruisers) .. I seen an interesting theory in the wiki that theorized that the other 3 cruisers might had arrived moments later to see why the Drala-Fi went dark (no punt intended) and they were destroyed by the remaining unexploded Nuke

[@tscream80]

11:51 - "The Minbari would be incensed at this attack, given that the Lexington destroyed the Blackstar while pretending to be hurt. And they're right." Except the Lexington *was* hurt: she had no main engine power, couldn't jump to hyperspace, could only barely maneuver with docking thrusters, and had had her main weapons disabled either due to losing power or being blown away - possibly both. Hell, I doubt they had any functional fighters left and had to lay those mines using whatever drones they could salvage/suited personnel/combination of the two. Essentially, when the Blackstar was bearing down on them, they were bearing down on a ship that couldn't run or fight directly. Sheridan just took advantage of a situation he knew was likely to occur - and the Minbari got pissed over it. On that note, I do recommend looking up SF Debris's "Meet John Sheridan" and "In the Beginning" reviews and listen to his comments on how the Minbari reacted to this victory. He's got some... choice words for them: sfdebris.com/ (I'm posting a link to his site because he doesn't typically post to KZbin).

[@808INFantry11X]

The Lexington was hurt but not helpless this victory was earned by the Lexington the Mimbari were over confident

[@mrichar9]

Lore Reloaded 👍 Spacedock 👍 Babylon 5 🤩😍 Keep going! You guys rock!

[@shadowmystery5613]

What's more amazing - the Minbari fell RIGHT for the same tactic they just tried before 😂😂😂

[@davidioanhedges]

The Earth-Minbari was thought of by Earth as a genocidal war ... because the Minbari did not accept surrender, and took no prisoners, but they also only attacked military and defensive structures and ignored civilians, they bypassed entire colonies when they were non-military and instead skipped them to head for Earth

[@jessematthews6861]

You have your own flavor that is separate from spacedock, so don't feel inadequate in comparison. Your awesome

[@patrickdavis1463]

Great video! More please!

[@Thescott16]

Yea, but this gave way to one of the best speeches in the show: EAF Task Force trying to seize control of Babylon 5: "We have authority here. Do not force us to engage your ship." Delenn: "Why not? Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me, you are in front of me. If you value your lives; be somewhere else."

[@Torlonus]

Well capturing an enemy vessel to see how it's stealth system and senors worked at this point would be priceless. Still I agree just sending in the fighters would've been smarter. In later points you see starfuries grabbing onto other ships and moving them around so why not here? So the trap wasn't really needed.

[@travisgames6608]

I remember that captain being incompetent lol

[@zacharysheetz3701]

0:32 There is a second asteroid belt beyond Pluto; but they said asteroid system. As in, a solar system with only an asteroid belt orbiting the star. It wasn't this solar system.

[@TheSignOfZeta]

Wait. Was Captain Sterns played by Don Cheadle in that clip?

[@jakerocinante1133]

In the original story Sheradin said that there was more than one, up to 4 like you had in space dock. Later during this made for TV movie they reduced it to only the Black Star.

[@putinscat1208]

Did anyone notice that the CC window stars are not rotating?

[@xxtracerroundxx]

Any chance of some Battlestar Galactica?

[@ringleader61]

this was the Blackstar's strategy. They wipe out most ships and let the survivor call for help. Then they destroy that ship and wait for the rescue ships to arrive and repeat the same tactic. But even the best tactics only work for so long before someone figures it out. Lexington just got lucky.

[@Silverfoxwolfen]

Even if they had known there were survivors on any of the ships, the distress call would have been allowed to be sent, the shpi destroyed and the rescue ships also attacked on arrival.

[@danielthorp8717]

I would call it a Tatical incentive survival act. Or cowardice is transformed from a possible weakness of the Black Star Vessel lying in a trap door spider act, to a particular strength of the Earth Force Vessel. In its tatical weakened position, luring the spider to a helpless prey with a sting in its tail.

[@-JustHuman-]

There are two stories of the battle, in the B5 series they do say fleet, but in the movie About the war it's only the Blackstar that jumps in and the battle is only told as one ship vs. a fleet. It's coming down to the cost of putting it on screen and the cost of only telling about it in passing on the show. And the Blackstar killed a lot of ships in the area so there was a lot of debris in the area, and the Lexington was only on minimal power when they left to takeout the other ships, so they could have seen it as a ship already dead in the water. The Doctors wasn't really a traitor, he simply din't want to have his work used for making weapons of genocide, and he did keep that same trait trough out the show, he put the rule to do good by his oath higher than anything else, even religious callings of other races.

[@1nONLY_DRock]

Cool! Babylon 5 lore! I think their battles had a bit more depth than Star Trek. Could be fun.

[@anthonymenzer2462]

Damn, some serious shade thrown at Dr. Franklin at the end.

[@MultiAbstrak]

So i finally got around to finish watching this without distraction. From what i remember, there were "supposed" to be more than just the black star, but due to budget on the series and in the movie, they were only able to cgi the black star. The other ships were added in later. Or something along those lines. I believe it is also mentioned in the book. Acording to the Lurker's Guide (c.1995) [which is considered the definitive guide]: "During the entire course of the war, Earth scored only one major victory, when a young officer named John Sheridan destroyed the Minbari war cruiser Black Star and several accompanying vessels." www.midwinter.com/lurk/universe/war-and-line.html

[@uss_04]

Glad you included video clips and images of each ship for the placesetting. Love Spacedock’s overview, but really missed the images of each ship. Better lore wise. Also Schwarzkopf was the First Gulf War Commander for US forces, not Russian. RIP.

[@andreaswidham3607]

I think the reason they went in with the capital ships after the Minbari Flyer is that Stearns wanted to board it. Starfuries can't launch boarding actions.

[@obiitom]

What word did you edit over with "black star", noticed a few audio cuts, curious is all 😂

[@LoreReloaded]

Dark star

[@obiitom]

@@LoreReloaded close I suppose, maybe you could do a "breakdown" (pun intended) of the Dark Star sometime, though I doubt there is much alpha or beta canon for it 😂

[@SeanPGorman]

How many times did you have to edit out the time that you called the 'Drala Fi' the 'Dark Star' instead of the 'Black Star'?

[@LoreReloaded]

More than I prefer

[@smileydag]

This was rendered on DEC Turbolaser boxes. The same ones used for Titanic and they were $75,000 for 8 hours CPU time.