Star Trek Deep Space Nine Ruminations S1E06: Captive Pursuit

[@edmis90]

I think it makes perfect sense that Quark is nice to customers while the opposite to his employees. Because money is so important to Ferengi at such a deep level that Quark can't help himself and dislike his employees because, in his subconscious mind, they are effectively just people who take his money.

[@williamozier918]

This was not only one of my favorite first season episodes, but in my top 10 overall Star Trek episodes. This episode to me nails the whole 'what Star Trek is about'. What I really liked about this episode is that how the exciting action itself conveyed the moral quandry of the week to us. It also brought up the really hard side of cultural relativism. It did all this without 'preaching' at any time. Upon reflection and personal ruminations this episode was even more enjoyable than I remembered.

[@SattaiLanfear]

Quark's returning of his ex-customer's money is a violation of the first rule of acquisition. Once you have their money, never give it back.

[@granudisimo]

Yeah but, when you consider rule 98, that return could be considered an investment, because you never know which turns and twists the Great River might take.

[@granudisimo]

They treat Tosks as the embodyment of an ideal of strength, wits, honor, and friendship (one of Tosk's trained skills is being able to earn the trust of complete strangers without saying a word of its purpose, something that, to be honest, is fairly easy with this Goodie two shoes at Starfleet XD). They're a symbol to be caught, either literally, by the hunters, or metaphorically, by the general population, just like the chief hunter meant when he told Sisko that Tosk symbolizes all that is noble and corageous. An alien culture based on glorifying the chase over the catch. Also, the fact Tosk allowed himself to be caught by the Station's security without easily killing them, it's because, at the moment of apprehension, he quickly cogitated, with his genetically manipulated brain, that earning the trust of the noble, peaceloving people at that station, was more powerful than all the phaser rifles he could've possibly stole.

[@robertmartinu8803]

O'Brien is the perfect match for Ds9! The other ships are too of the line, well maintained and expected to push boundaries. Ds9 on the other hand is a cast off design from a race that is behind the tech curve in the first place. It gets merged with incompatible tech. That requires someone who is excellent at improvising, not fine tuning. MacGyver wasn't exactly a lab technician either...

[@TheLordGodfrey]

O'Brien is...a plumber. He's a problem solver, as well as extremely empathetic. In DnD terms, O'Brien has a High Wisdom Score, High Charisma, and Above Average Intelligence.

[@EnvisionerWill]

I would say his Charisma is middling. I'd put him at something like 14 INT, 14 CHA and 16 WIS - still not exceptional even in the last category, but well-rounded enough to do reasonably well in any situation, rather than utterly dominating his specialty and then being useless outside of it.

[@jester9217]

O'Brian us blue collar competent. By that I mean he is someone who crawls through the muck looks at the problem and goes "huh". In short he's more street smart than book smart.

[@tee_es_bee]

Awesome character moments in this episode. Interactions between Odo, Sisko, O'Brien, Quark and Tusk were amazing. Had a huge grin on my face for the most of the episode.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Your typo makes me think of Killer Instinct, and that puts a smile on my face.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I always thought it made sense that the aliens from the Gamma Quadrant were outpacing DS9’s tech early on, seeing as it was a mostly Cardassian station with technology that was old, meant for mining and little else, from the Cardassians (who Starfleet could curbstop at any time, but didn’t because of political reasons) and not the Federation in both design, materials, and technology, and was (at this point) being held together by O’Brian’s duct tape fixes.

[@Fedaykin24]

I can see why O'Brian would have been posted as Chief of operations on DS9, it is like what you said about Sisko in the pilot. O'Brian is able to turn the right screws to get things done. It is a Space station rather than a Starship, a Space station that isn't even owned by the Federation without all the access to spares and supplies. As an engineer he isn't just about technobabbling his way out of a problem and he has prior experience with Cardassian technology. He can bodge together a solution to a problem with what he has available rather than wait for a spare part to be supplied from Bajor or for the Federation. It is even stated in a later series that DS9 relies on a mess of Cardassian, Bajoran and Federation technology to keep going.

[@Galvion1980]

O'Brien is smarter than anybody gives him credit for. Without engineers, science is just philosophy.

[@EnvisionerWill]

It would be nice to look at a conflict between the theoretical-science mindset and the fundamental practicality of an engineer, as this would be a major source of division within the Federation (assuming you didn't have a Roddenberry or a Berman hovering overhead, forbidding your humans to quibble with one another). We kind of got a taste of it in "Where No One Has Gone Before", if we pretend that Kozinski's babbling was not complete and utter nonsense, but was in fact somehow based in high-level warp theory that's normally considered too impractical to work.

[@EnvisionerWill]

The "Sisko is Weird" thing, IMO, very much does make sense; it connects a little bit to O'Brien's "I can break the rules" revelation, and it definitely connects to Sisko telling Odo "there's no rush", but above all else, it connects to the Sisko we end up seeing in episodes like "In The Pale Moonlight" or "For the Uniform". I think you're right that it was at "The Maquis" that Sisko started to change his attitude, although "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" also played a role I suspect...basically, Sisko starts the show as a Neutral Good character, trying to achieve Starfleet's Lawful aims, but increasingly finding himself compelled to use Chaotic approaches to do it. And as he gradually realizes how flawed the Federation's approach to problem-solving is (notably when he sees how Starfleet hung the Maquis-to-be colonists out to dry, and ended up having to fight his buddy over it, as a sort of proto-Eddington situation which probably bruised the same metaphorical bone which Eddington would later metaphorically break), he becomes less and less inclined to bother paying lip service to the Federation's ideals, and more willing to openly defy Starfleet principles in order to achieve his aims, ending up with him committing flat-out atrocities which would almost certainly have gotten him courtmartialed if not for the desperate circumstances around them. I would have to say that early Sisko connects to late Sisko MUCH better than early Picard connects to late Picard.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Odo's refusal to use weapons clearly didn't last that long. I just saw "Heart of Stone", an early season 3 episode, today, and in it Odo not only picks up a phaser but openly threatens to kill the person he's pointing it at.

[@iksaglam]

I think they started adding those flavor of life moments in DS9 more consistently because they realized how well it worked and how memorable those scenes were in TNG when they started adding them especially around season 5. They realized that people were willing to revisit even bad episodes for that one slice of awesomeness.

[@elleoneiram]

Tosk was so cute. Loved his relationship with O'Brien. I thought the Quark sexual harassment thing was fitting because it's Quark. He's one of my favorite characters, but he is a misogynistic Ferengi. It would be out of character for such a self-serving and sleazy fellow to NOT take sexually harass his employees, unfortunately. So funny that this was supposed to distinguish DS9 from TNG. Isn't that kind of... all DS9? I mean, in the first episode, Sisko clashes with the beloved Picard. Later Sisko even literally says, "I'm not Picard!"

[@Enkarashaddam]

Ah. A fellow duet fan!

[@thewayfarer8849]

Dude, who *isn't* a Duet fan? One of the best Trek episodes period

[@Enkarashaddam]

Scytale of Riviera touchè

[@jamespepper8671]

Started with you in B5 Season 4.

[@TheHopperUK]

To me the attitude of 'treats it like a tool' is more expressed by how the lady Founder treats Weyoun. She likes him, she trusts him, she likes having him around. But if he 'breaks', if he's faulty, if he fails to do what she needs or wants, she tosses him in the incinerator to get a new one. And she expects him to think of himself as disposable too. He's a bit like a smartphone to her. She's fond of it but if it breaks she'll just go get one that works.

[@cr-nd8qh]

Indeed to watch this now

[@JimPlaysGames]

To me it's not complicated. It's absolutely wrong what they're doing to the Tosk. They may "care" for them the way you'd care for a valuable object, but they have zero concern for the wellbeing of the Tosk beyond that. The way they treat the Tosk when they are captured clearly shows this. To create a sentient being and design it to enjoy fulfilling your desires is an astonishingly monstrous thing to do. This being could have been given a far more fulfilling life, but he has been denied all the satisfaction and joy that comes from anything other than what he's been given only to serve as a plaything. He will never know love, or enjoy music, or even food. It's not complicated. It's an absolute obscenity.

[@sharkdentures3247]

I'm amused during your "slavery portrayed with moral ambiguity" - thing. Mostly because I was flashing back to your Babylon 5 ruminations, where you also spoke of how you too loved moral ambiguity, moral complexity, and not being "told" what the :right" answer is. And I can't help but agree on all points.

[@elenarossi8398]

about the prime directive thing... If my memorie serves right when the whole rules thing comes up it is when the federation is in the terretory of the culture that has these strange rules. And in that case it is unerstandable that the federation can not interfer. This episode presented a unique circumstance where the aliens came to us instead... Well I already forgot where I was going with this but yeah just wanted to point that out

[@williamozier918]

Do you think in a post Dominion War Alpha Quadrant the Klingons will begin hunting Tosk?

[@EnvisionerWill]

Why would they? The Klingons like battle, not hunting; Tosk isn't big on fighting back, so the Klingons wouldn't enjoy doing battle with them.

[@mr51406]

Customers: indeed! A boss once told me: a satisfied customer brings 4 more in, a dissatisfied customer keeps 10 away. Three interesting concepts in this episode. Two would indeed be reused: the Jem’Hadar and the Hirogen. One could say that the Tosk are what the Jem’Hadar would be if they weren’t genetically vicious ketracel white addicts. The 3rd concept wouldn’t be reused: the Hunters have cartoonish bright transporters and Ultraman costumes. Experiments in radically different designs inspired by other schools of sci-fi for the Gamma quadrant?

[@breajohnson7573]

I think the reason that the Hunters didn't just give Tosk 10 seconds to get out and continue the hunt is because, as stated in the episode, the Tosk train for this event their entire lives and is basically their entire reason for being. It's shameful that the hunt didn't end with a big explosion in space, it ended with Tosk caught in a holding cell, so the Hunters took him alive because they didn't think he deserved another chance. Since Tosk had trained for this so long, he only gets one shot to make it as exciting as possible and it seemed to have ended abruptly and anticlimactic, so the Hunters intended to humiliate him for failing the most important event in his life.

[@fredrikcarlstedt393]

O' Brien, the DS9: s true working class hero .

[@groxexghostlawyer2558]

As someone who just watched the episode, its not the greatest one but its an Okay episode. I personally love the fact that O'Brian isn't just Chief Operator, but is a Guy who is Chief Operator. What I mean by that is he's not just, the Engineer Guy who we have to go to for help, but he's someone who not only is the Engineer guy, he's a who wants to help anyone he can by any means necessary.

[@XavionofThera]

Aside from a few blurry on-screen "maps" showing earth at the border of the Alpha and Beta quadrants, and the vague references in TOS to the enterprise being "the only ship in the quadrant", there's almost nothing in the shows suggesting that any of the main show is outside of the Alpha quadrant.

[@Kapitaen_Flauschbart]

I took that hunting alien race more likely as Hirogen too. Made sense to me, as they probably manufactured the perfect prey, to hunt it as part of some inherent cultural intricacy. Oh and that play of this certain reptilian in ENT season 3 was masterful! Didnt thought af the many roles you mentioned :-)

[@granudisimo]

I wouldn't compare them with the Hirogen. Hirogen are little more than interstellar big game hunters, and the Tosk hunt is something completely different, it's not just looking for the toughest prey in the galaxy and bringing its desicated remains, it's more about creating an ideal via genetic engineering and supreme grooming, and then trying to catch it, both physically (the hunt itself) and metaphorically (how it inspires the population). It's like a sophisticated form of bullfighting, the bull symbolizes power and and the fight against it is a way of pursuing that power and being inspired by it, difference is that Tosk is sentient and craves being hunt.

[@zeldaoot23]

Wait, the Federation isn’t in the Alpha Quadrant?

[@rebeccaw6253]

hey Lore, i love these ruminations...not sure if this has been said but: Quark being a fair business man and degrading/objectifying females makes total sense. DS9 Ferengi work as a mirror to humans behavior when it comes to desire/greed/consumption/and the objectification of woman to sell things or sex (also it’s the 90’s) His whole race treats woman as second class citizens and he must be about 36 years old. That way of thinking is deep seated. But! His behavior towards women is a huge character arch leading up the stories with his mother...the continuity seed has been planted! Also if i can be so bold :) I bet anyone reading this comment knows a “good” and “fair” person in their life that thinks they can mansplain, touch, comment on a woman’s appearance/dress, etc. thanks!

[@tee_es_bee]

33:40 Yeah, did not get that from the episode whatsoever. To be fair, it has been a couple years since I last watched TNG. 35:10 I really liked how Sisko chewed O'Brien out. Sisko couldn't let it slide, but at the same time morally agreed with what O'Brien did. My favorite episode of the series so far.

[@ChocolatierRob]

I must admit that I skipped over this one while watching the DVDs recently so I’ve not watched the Quark scenes but the way you describe it reminds me of a later episode where Jake and Nog go on a double date. You learn more about Ferengi attitudes to females, when Nog embarrasses Jake by his terrible attitude to his date, then Nog explains how much worse it would have been if he’d been full on Ferengi. Saying Quark was being a bastard is viewing him entirely through a human lens, Quark is not human. His employees are not viewed the same way as his customers, both are for getting as much profit from as possible but the way he goes about it will be different for both groups. From what I see of Quark in general he is likely to hit on his own staff but if they reject him or even slap him he will accept it happily. The different ways Ferengi view alien women compared to their own women are also of note. The Ferengi have a _very_ stay in the kitchen attitude to women of their own species but women of other species are to be publicly pursued and prized. Ferengi appreciate strong women who stand up to them so long as they are not Ferengi themselves. The Ferengi are simply very different to what we understand as humans, judging them entirely by human standards is not the best way to understand them.

[@EnvisionerWill]

I just rewatched that episode the other day. It's written with a very facepalming lack of subtlety, but the text on the page suggests that they were trying to make it look like a legitimate difference in cultural approach. About the only insight we get into the Ferengi viewpoint is Nog's use of the term "fawning respect" for Jake's approach to the "females". While the word "respect" has positive connotations, at least to us, the idea that Nog sees treating a woman as an equal as an embarrasing lack of pride and "spine" on the male's part, the sort of thing that makes the man look weak and contemptible - in other words, the kind of "mark" whom the Ferengi would want to exploit, thinking that they deserve it for being dumb and "not having the lobes", in the same way that Klingons think that people who don't want to fight all the time must be weak enough that they have no honor and should simply be killed like sheep. We've gotten enough well-written Klingons to have a pretty decent sense of how their alternate ethics make sense, but the Ferengi never quite got there and were always written as misogynistic idiots with no sense or logic to their viewpoint. I have to read into it to come up with all the stuff I just said above. The episode doesn't even really try; it ends with Nog saying that Jake does many things which disgust him, just as the thought of his woman chewing his food for Nog is disgusting to Jake. But Nog never says what the disgusting human behaviors are, so we're left with no reason to think Nog's attitude is founded on any sort of logic. (Amusingly, that episode is RIGHT BEFORE the one where Nog convinces Sisko to let him join Starfleet. Which is really hard to connect, given that Jake absolutely did tell his dad about Nog's horrible behavior toward women, though he didn't go into a lot of detail.)

[@joluoto]

O'Brien is simply brilliant.

[@applebrush7600]

I always thought O'Brien was rather like the MacGuyver of the Star Trek World. He has the kind of intellect that can take this and that and behold! A transporter! Or whatever is needed. Trust me, He seems like the kind of man who will seal an acid leak with a chocolate bar.

[@ssm100]

I'm loving rewatching DS9 with you. I just have one nerd nitpick. The Federation is predominantly in the Alpha Quadrant, but your point of still well taken. The Klingons and Romulans are fully in the Beta Quadrant, so the Dominion definitely has their sites on both. Which brings me to a fascinating alternate universe were the Dominion has conquered the Alpha and most of the Beta and then meet the Borg...

[@EnvisionerWill]

I'm still trying to figure out where Lore gets the idea that Earth is in the Beta quadrant, since this directly contradicts both the show itself and Memory Alpha. I'm guessing that in the show's official maps, the quadrants are laid out in a "1234" clockwise order, while in whatever technical manual Lore has imprinted upon, they numbered them in a zig-zag pattern, so that reading clockwise it comes out as "2134". Thusly, the Alphas and Beta quadrants can appear in either order depending on what source you're referencing. I personally prefer to believe the show itself, rather than some secondary source that was probably based on a miscommunication.

[@pigpiggypigbigpig681]

This episode I really liked so far. Just 300+ to go now :)

[@nickokona6849]

Did you notice they reused the Hunter outfit sans the helmet in Void in Voyager? The first ship that joins Janeways alliance. The Nygean crew. As for Quark and the dabo girl, it always seemed perfectly in line with the Ferengi attitude toward women, and employees. Employees are the rungs on the ladder of success. Don’t hesitate to step on them. What better way to step on a female employee a Ferengi would there be but to exercise sexual power over them? The Tosk reminded me of the animals in Hitchhikers guide who were engineered to want to be eaten, and can plainly talk to reassure you of that.

[@signaltome]

I see your point Lorerunner and to a degree I agree, but I never like the thought of one intelligent being hunting another. BUT they seem to both be in agreement, Tosk and the hunters that is so I will let that slide even if the Tosk is only a willing participant because that is all he knows. There are things that I have a zero tolerance for however. Slavery. Abuse. Rape. Put them in a dark cell and throw away the key. Child abuse? Well, let's just say I am fairly mild-mannered, I don't like guns or any weapon in RL BUT if anyone, and I do mean anyone intentionally harms my nieces... They will not be able to hide from me, let's say that. But I digress, where was I? Oh yeah, Quark. Not the average Ferengi. I like Rom more though, I feel is basically is a Ferengi version of O'Brian. At least later on he will be written like that. But I guess we'll get to that later. Oh yeah, I was going to watch the firs episode here and let it go until there were more. That obviously did not happen. But it is DS9 man. Gotta love it. Good job.

[@williamozier918]

I always assumed that the Tosk and the Hunters, both, were part of the Jem'Hdar program. That way the jemhdar have the genetics of master hunters and master prey.

[@williamozier918]

Do you think in the post war era the Klingons import Tosk?

[@LostMercenary99]

I almost garuntee that the Tossk would never start an insurrection. That would immediatly get the Dominion's notice and not in a good way.

[@granudisimo]

Or option 4: Let's see how good this Tosk was at earning the trust of these people..., hmm, let's see, scanners show our armors would resist most their basic weapons so, yeah, it's standard procedure, let's see how they react and if shit starts getting tough we'll take the diplomatic approach.

[@enlightedjedi]

Aren't the tosk something like NBA stars?

[@babylon5lord]

SO to answer the problem with quarks sexual harassment screen, he is a Ferengi and I'm not saying that to excuse it but, if we remember all the woman on Ferenginar is used as an object and they don't get to wear clothes and or own property. So quark does this probably thinking no one will question it or it's a business and he is the boss and anything goes in Ferengi business, also i dont know whether or not Quark knows about federation laws.

[@Enkarashaddam]

Xavier Goodson much of DS9 points out Quarks various flaws. If anything he is a complex, flawed character caught between the expectation to be like an average Ferengi and being his own man. The kind of person who will sell discount food/clothing to the Bajoran slaves AND demands sexual favors of those under his employ.

[@placidandy]

I guess I can go along with O'Brien's reasoning but... they killed a guy during the escape. Depending on how you look at it, three other Hunters were wounded or likely killed too. Cultural mores or no, O'Brien just went along with that without a second thought, and I'm not sure the episode earned *quite* that degree of willingness on O'Brien's part to escape at any cost. How exactly does a bunch of dead bodies get explained away to Starfleet?

[@mcgibs]

I'm guessing the Hunters didn't really mind either. Even if at least one of their dudes died, he died in the hunt. And the hunt is also back on. Everyone's happy.

[@quasimodojdls]

Meh, for an episode where they were trying to not be like TNG it sure feels like a TNG story, but at least better executed one than "Babel". First off, I just want to mention - so, Quark puts into his contracts that his employees have to sexually service him? Okay, he's a scumbag for doing that. But, that really doesn't change the fact that the Dabo Girl in question is a moron for signing a contract partly written in a foreign language without even bothering to read the damn thing. For our first encounter with a species from the Gamma Quadrant, "Captive Pursuit" is rather bland. The only truly memorable aspects of the aliens are the make-up design on Tosk and the hunters' transporter effect (which is AWESOME!). Other than that, nothing really stands out about either Tosk or his pursuers, in my opinion. The concept of a blood sport involving sapient beings is interesting and could have been developed more, but is instead basically just brushed aside with a disapproving but stupidly tolerant scene from Sisko. The only true gem from this outing is that O'Brien is straight-up willing to ignore and/or violate the Prime Directive because it's obviously morally right to do so (which it so often is). But then, count me in the camp that thinks interference (of at least some limited kind) should be done to save Tosks on an individual or person-to-person basis. And as O'Brien's first starring vehicle for the series, it works well enough. 5/10

[@bigjohny3333]

a suggestion try something new and during the first minute or so give us the primary and secondary plotlines.i

[@TheRPGChick]

Speaking of Bashir, I wish you would stop with the spoilers on his character development or reveal, as well as some of the other characters' romances. I know these are all recorded long ago... but I wish you had put up a spoiler warning or something. I love the show, and if I didn't, I wouldn't say a thing, I'd just never watch again.

[@permeus2nd]

I was thinking why I didn’t remember this episode name and it’s just come to me it’s one of the auto skip episodes, it’s not bad but I find it boring as hell. Ok people need to learn there is a difference between down to earth and dumb, O’Brian is down to earth ye he probably won’t invent a new warp drive but he can fix any one he comes across and would likely only need some chewing gum an egg and some chocolate to do it too.

[@MollyGermek]

The saying really should be, 'They treat them like chattel.' I wouldn't be surprised if it originally was and cattle is just a corruption. No it's not your place to decide, a war to liberate them would be disastrous and help no one. But propagandising to them, encouraging their own attempts at theorising revolutionary struggle and helping support that struggle if asked would be the moral position I'd take. I didn't catch that either. I also really dislike it if that's what they intended. It's always a weird instinct for shows to have someone decide the rules don't matter. On the one hand if a rule is unjust, it should be broken. Basic MLK approved idea. On the other, a lot of the times shows don't do the groundwork to show the rule is unjust and it just turns into a bit of a fascist ubermensch, might makes right sort of deal. I like that DS9 actually highlights this a lot with Odo constantly wanting to arrest people with flimsy pretence only to get shot down by Sisko.

[@resurrectedstarships]

REALLY? The Hirogens were a ripoff off the Predators down to their skin color :/ They were such lazily created bad guys, one of the things that made Voyager a second rate series IMHO. But then ofc, the breen were a ripoff of...yeah star wars - starting with the hunters in Tosk.

[@pigpiggypigbigpig681]

Wait. You say Quark can't be a bastard sometimes. What? You want a snow flake? Fuck that lol When I was a kid and watched movies of the main character being in the 1800s and they were never racist/sexist. Bullshit! Just because the creators wanted you to like the main character they made the character have modern outlooks, which is unrealistic. Jesus Christ cries in his hand. (just venting) ... ... Love your uploads. Keep doing it.