Star Trek Deep Space Nine Ruminations S2E25: Tribunal

[@captmoroni]

The overview of love and relationships makes this vid even more special. Thanks Lore.

[@JasonCliftJones]

O'Brien Must Suffer is more a case of O'Brien being the most normal human, most relatable. How'd we cope going through the same thing?

[@paulscott2037]

Exactly. His mindset is always focussed on "ok how do I survive this so I can get home to my family."

[@sharkdentures3247]

"Odo at his Odo-ist" LMAO! Weirdly coincidentally, I had watched Obsolete Man a few days / a week ago on KZbin. (completely random lark) It was great. Classic Twilight Zone is awesome, with spectacular acting & stories.

[@tee_es_bee]

3:55 Always yes. People need time off work. Even if they really enjoy said work. Burnout is a real thing. 12:40 100% agreed. This was Odo proving it to Odo. Both actors did an excellent work in the scene. 16:00 Love how minimalist the whole thing is. Made it work even better for the context. On the side I'm going to mention that I loved the comedic timing at the start of the episode with the turbo lift head poke. 🧡💛🧡

[@michaelcolfin8464]

To quote Michael Corleone..."It was between the brothers, Kay."

[@GrimDarkNarrator]

Watching this, I wondered how the Cardassians as a race didn't judge themselves into extinction with such a ridiculous legal system. I know its supposed to be satire to some degree, but its so silly I couldn't help laughing out loud a few times. Good episode though, in my opinion. It's only fault, to me, is how instantly and neatly it was resolved in the last 3 minutes. I think this would've made much better drama as a two parter.

[@user-hi4sm3ig5j]

Loved the episode for O'brien and Odo. I wish they would have gone into further detail about what the rest of the Federation were doing. I know they mentioned the Starfleet ships moving into the DMZ to pressure Cardassia but nothing else really.

[@JemHadar422]

You gotta admit ..that when that lawyer says “winning isn’t everything” I knew it was a show trial.

[@ChocolatierRob]

I'll add a third one that is just as, if not more, important than the two you stated. He is alone with his _wife._ It's one thing to be slow to respond when surrounded by a whole crew of people to potentially take care of the problem but another thing entirely when the safety of your loved ones suddenly depend on your actions.

[@Infernal460]

I get the feeling that if u don't plead *guilty* your family members are going to face charges for themselves. And considering how family is valued its very easy to persuade people to accept this justice.

[@ANProductionsOfficialChannel]

This was influenced by 1984 and Stalinism. The Cardassian Justice System is very reminicent of Soviet Justice under Stalin and even Khrushchev. All is well, criminals willingly give themselves up in the name of the greater good, things like this. Look at the purges. Many just willingly gave themselves up brainwashed into believing they were actually guilty when they weren't in the name of the greater good. Fantastic episode. Also... love the actor who played the lawyer here. One of my favorites. His role in Fail Safe is stunning.

[@fredrikcarlstedt393]

Ah, the wonders of the righteous and fairminded Cardassian justice system ! Hallowed be its name !

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

Cardassian trials are made quick so they can be shown at dinner and discussed by the families for mental stimulation & training.

[@meamishere1166]

I'm assuming this would have been impossible because of the two shows being on two different networks but, I would have loved to have found out that Seska was Iliana, the spy that Kira was surgically altered to look like in the Season 2 episode *"Second Skin"* This in my opinion would have been much more interesting that the simple villain that Seska turned out to be.

[@Brando64]

"O'Brien Must Suffer" gets a bit boring after a while. I've got a theory that Star Trek doesn't like the Irish as a people. Consider Finnegan, Kevin Riley, Ben Finney, all the Bringloidi. And remember the fact that O'Brien's visitor in "If Wishes Were Horses" was _originally_ meant to be *a leprechaun!* I rest my case. Sisko _begged_ his superiors to let O'Brien go on holiday, so they could have a break from each other. O'Brien doesn't want to go because he is the only one who can fix the Cardassian computer system. I don't like Keiko, she's always whining about something, JMO. Of course, O'Brien's reaction to the first sight of the Cardassian ship is correct. And yes, both responses are applicable O'Brien's processing reminded me very much of Picard in Chain of Command Part II Odo is sublime here. Justice is his creed. More power to him! "On Cardassia, the verdict is always known before the trial begins, and it's always the same." If this is the longest trial in the history of Cardassia, I have to wonder how many Federation citizens have been tried by the Cardassian "legal system" Hmm, I hadn't considered foreshadowing Seska, that's a good point.

[@EnvisionerWill]

That description you give of a "good" propaganda system is one of the best encapsulations I've ever heard. I'd really love to see a portrayal of a "nice" society that has such a system in place, and really examines how questionable and mixed the whole idea is, when it's not an obvious straw dystopia and there isn't an immediately apparent answer. It'd be like a great basis on which to rebuild the episode "Justice", or maybe even "Devil's Deal", as well as probably this one (I haven't seen "Tribunal").

[@kaitlyn__L]

If you read novels, maybe Island by Huxley?

[@thexalon]

Brave New World is the obvious "good" propaganda system in action.

[@mr51406]

Hard episode but it’s great to watch it for the awesome powerful acting. 🌟 O’Brien may have to suffer, but he never suffers fools gladly. 🚩Compare the lawyer’s claim that all Cardassians are “safe to walk the streets” with what Madred (David Warner) says in “Chain of Command” where Cardassia was a terribly poor place to live. That’s the appeal of arbitrary authoritarian regimes to a frightened populace: “order,” “safety,” and of course “trains run on time.” “Travail, famille, patrie” as they said in Vichy. Some are willing to sacrifice freedom for these promises. Which, despite the relentless propaganda, are never met in reality unless you’re well connected.

[@takerdust]

Technically, O'Brien left Cardassia as a convicted felon.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Hey, I like Voyager season 1! It was season 2 that pretty much destroyed it for me back in the day. Also, Memory Alpha contradicts you on the timing of the Star Trek series, claiming that Deep Space Nine was never the only ST on TV. I am of course more inclined to believe you than to trust the FANDOM wiki. My vague recollection does suggest that there was a gap between TNG's end and VOY's beginning, but it was a long time ago, so I'll trust other sources over my own (lack of) memory.

[@stevencoardvenice]

TNG ended in may 94. I watched TV at the time. From what I remember, Voyager didnt begin until 95. So There would be about 6 months in the second half of 94 where DS9 would be the only trek on TV. At least

[@muadeeb]

"longest trial in Cardassian history". What? 30 minutes? A hour?

[@TheRPGChick]

They recovened on a second day.

[@enlightedjedi]

Has anyone found the name of the logical fallacy mentioned around 19:15?

[@CedarHunt]

It's called a propositional fallacy where a connection between propositions is assumed without being established logically.

[@connormccloy9399]

Raise shields! Odio to maximum!

[@波切和雄]

Holy crap I can’t believe I never noticed it was the guy from Obsolete Man. I must be made of lead-plated woodinum. Thanks for pointing that out,I love catching 60s guest stars in other works. Keiko/Miles is one of my favorite fictional romances. I personally loved it when the last half of season 5 turned into “Oh Those O’Briens!”

[@johnashley327]

So did Enterprise have the best first season?

[@jeffborowiak8992]

The twilight Zone!

[@EnvisionerWill]

Even with a lot of rewatching, I still think season 1 Voyager is pretty close to the best the show ever got, with only a handful of exceptions ("Scorpion Pt. 1", "Night", and "The Void" being the top three). There are only three episodes out of the 15 that I think are below the median for quality - "Parallax" is boring, "Learning Curve" pisses me off and "State of Flux" is horrible, but I like all the rest at least half of the time. "Caretaker" is lacking, but effective enough as a pilot that I give it a pass, "Emanations" is substandard but adequate, and just because I've gone this far, I'll rank the remaining ten episodes (all of which I would give at least four out of five stars) from "good" to "best" - "Time and Again" is pretty good, "Prime Factors" is full of sadly unrealized potential which still entertains me, "Cathexis" is a schizophrenic but decent episode which really makes me think, "Ex Post Facto" is a kind of a cool mind-trippy episode with bad costuming but some very interesting details, "The Cloud" has a really neat sci-fi idea which it executes very memorably, "Eye of the Needle" is a fascinating puzzler, "Phage" brilliantly and terrifyingly introduces the Vidiians (who were, in theory, one of the greatest alien designs since the Borg), "Faces" is a great character study of B'elanna, "Heroes and Demons" is tremendously entertaining, and "Jetrel" is probably the single best Voyager episode ever, with the possible exception of "Scorpion". So yeah, I don't agree that season 1 voyager was a low point. Season 2, definitely, gets that distinction, and probably parts of 6 as well.

[@ohgoditshimrun1346]

I wish we lived in a world where more people understood that the Cardassian court system is a bad one. That the anonymity of an accuser should not be the only absolute right in a trial, that failing to inform the accused of the nature of the charges against them is horribly evil, that defending the innocent is an inherent moral responsibility, and that officials who ignore the rules they enforce on others are total scum. But too many people hold this system up as ideal for managing one's public image. No matter whose lives they destroy for their own profit.

[@whoknows8264]

I guess it's a good episode but it was extremely unpleasant to sit through. I don't think the show is for me.

[@lsdesignweb]

Such a lazy writing its idiotic in the construction of the Cardasian legal system