Star Trek Deep Space Nine Ruminations S2E26: The Jem'Hadar

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[@steakman1989]

Part of the genius of the episode is that is starts minimally and like a "typical" episode with a standard and harmless plot with Quark being the "antagonist" of the A plot-until it goes all down hill. It is the Tuesday, but it is the one bad day. The frontier has now pushed back, and now it is terrifying. Honestly it is sometimes surprising from an in universe perspective that the Federation even won the war against the Dominion.

[@Netherfly]

DS9 really, really excels at episodes like that. Remember "Sound of Her Voice?" Felt like such a disposable, filler episode at first. And then there's In The Cards, which feels equally "typical," but I could write a whole essay on how it's the perfect microcosm of the series.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@MrDavidCopahfeel plus that they were fighting a small fraction of the Dominion's overall forces by them being barred from the wormhole... if those reinforcements came through they'd have been fucked, alliance or no alliance.

[@Fedaykin24]

At last, the Episode when DS9 was dialled up to 11!

[@Fatfit2]

Watching DS9 for the first time. I screamed when the Jem'hadar walked through the containment field! So cool!

[@Fedaykin24]

What I love about this episode is it appears to be a mundane filler episode at first then flips into something completely different!

[@mapleicecream4819]

My expectations were completely subverted. I found it very effective.

[@paulscott2037]

Would have hated to have been one of those fans who switched off half way through just for going "The fuck? This is a season finale and they're going on a camping trip!?" :p

[@danielyeshe]

I think that the over powered Dominion ships is satisfactorily explained. It is mentioned later that the Federation is able to figure out why their ships were ineffective in this encounter and modify the accordingly. Some of that is inference admittedly.

[@jef_3006]

I love the Captain of the Odyssey, he does a really good job giving a lot of character to a man who the episode will kill soon, and making him seem like a commander. And I really REALLY love how incredibly competently the crew deals with the Jem’Hadar arriving at DS9. Shields up, containment field, security teams. Fantastic

[@williamozier918]

1) I frickin love this episode! It's everything you want in a Star Trek episode both philosophically and enterntainment-wise. 2) This episode makes my head cannon think that the Tosk incident is what truly alerted the Dominion to the Federation. Which retroactively makes that episode even better IMO. 3) My head cannon always figured the gamma end of the wormhole is somewhere in the boonies on the edge of the Dominion. From what we've seen so far it's sparesely populated with no major worlds. Retconing full ahead, I would bet that the last time the Dominion really did anything in this area was when they layed all the punishment down on the two warring factions in Battle Lines. I imagine that event pacified this area that the Dominion has never returned in force. It's been so long in fact no one in this sector in living memory has ever even seen a Dominion ship. This area could be so far out in the boonies and so long neglect may have never actually seen a Founder. She believes in them but she still may never have seen one in a humanoid form to recognize Odo as a Founder. The reason we never see her again is the Dominion probably just killed her and discontinued her model because she saw too much.

[@vinylsolution2522]

Yes.... this has always been my belief... that the wormhole is located in the far backwater of the Dominion, long since pacified and nearly forgotten by the founders.

[@millefune]

I wish Eris was had a bigger part on the show. She was cute. Not replace Weyoun, Combs was great, but having another recurring Vorta (that's easier on the eyes) once on a while would have been nice.

[@vinylsolution2522]

The Zentradie main fleet would kick the Dominion in the teeth.

[@PicardRiker08]

Although it was insanely overpowered in hindsight, they succeeded in making me legitimately feel completely hopeless against this new threat. When the one Jem'Hadar effortlessly steps through their containment field, it was definitely a "whoa... everything has now changed, and we're fucked" moment. It sucks they eventually walked most of that back, but at the time, it was definitely effective as a viewer.

[@AdamCollings]

And So It Begins. I still remember the feelings of shock and excitement after watching The Jem'Hadar for the first time.

[@BassPlayer60134]

The Vorta has no idea Odo was a shapeshifter right? The muddle humanoid appearance they adapt is based on Odo’s appearance. To the vorta, Odo would just look like an unknown alien.

[@StormsparkPegasus]

I go with the interpretation that the Vorta do not have the powers that Eris "displayed", and the entire thing was just carefully arranged theater to get the heroes to trust her and get her onto DS9. I mean they outright said the collar was fake in the episode. I think the other "powers" were fake too, and just technology she concealed.

[@LostMercenary99]

The bypassing of shields would something that would stick for a long time and is even brought up by a certain Vorta at one point. I think the only reason the Defiant ever stood a chance against this crippling weakness is because of it's ablative hull armour, which can take about 2 whole minutes of sustained enemy fire. Also the fact that said ship has more guns than Charlton Bronsan's closest helps a lot too.

[@XalenMaru]

What stays with me about this ep is the lengths they went to show this was not something the TNG crew could have handled in 60 minutes. The captain of the Odyessy is an obvious pseudo Picard & the XO a pseudo Riker. It was one of the boldest statements DS9 would make & I think it's why B&B originally wanted to destroy the Defiant in First Contact in retaliation.

[@caloss2]

Perfect, just sat down for lunch while working at home today.

[@animationfanatic2133]

"computer, evasive maneuvers, fire phasers, launch torpedoes"

[@XavionofThera]

I don't think it's fair to say the dominion are "Mary sues" because they have abilities the alpha quadrant powers don't. This isn't a video game where everybody has to have balanced strengths and weaknesses. It makes sense that some powers would just be all-around superior (technologically and militarily).

[@resurrectedstarships]

4:56 Your are OBSESSED with Toosdays! And you make me like them.

[@BigB14]

I dont know. The Jem'hadar walking through the forcefield always stuck with me and is the first thing i think of when i remember this episode.

[@mr51406]

16:47 Quark’s accurate comment that the Ferengi remind Humans of their own nasty past ties in perfectly with Jessie Gender’s excellent video of April 17, 2022 about Trek NFT’s. I love the Ferengi as biting social satire.

[@allamaraine8066]

I’m going through all of Trek for the first time, and I’m up to S303 of DS9, so I totally appreciate your dancing around Dominion spoilers. 🍻 P.S. Keep up the great work, dude!

[@madalynnights4612]

What I find interesting is that Quark literally saves Sisko's life after all the anti-Ferengi bias he has. He is also to figure out Eris is lying. Eris wouldn't recognize Odo because the Founders are a myth, no one but their direct attendants would know what a Founder would look like

[@tomgriffiths2622]

This episode showed that it wasn't gonna be a tng knock off. While there were good ones before this episode this was the moment tbat you were all NFINGWAY!!!

[@fredrikcarlstedt393]

This episode is Q Who and The Best Of Both Worlds in one nice and neat package .

[@captmoroni]

Imagine if the Federation here had never experienced Wolf 359. Lore is right.

[@ChocolatierRob]

I'd say the Mary-Sueness of the Jem'Hadar is perfectly reasonable. It is a combination of 'outside context villain' and 'shock and awe'. The Dominion is basically pulling out all the stops for their entrance, they have done all their big tricks in one go in order to intimidate the Federation and they have been waiting a long time and preparing carefully for it. The flaw with this is that they didn't use it for an invasion to physically hurt them they used it against just one unprepared station then one prepared ship and a few runabouts. All their victories were essentially on their own side of the wormhole. The one trick they did not use was overwhelming power, they did not smash their way through, they snuck through. The Dominion have studied the Federation's tech without the chance for them to do the same and that gives them the chance to pull a lot off. However they wasted the opportunity in a psychological attack and gave the Feds a chance to study them back, they never get to be this overwhelming again until they just use superior numbers. The only real episode flaw was the telekinetic Vorta which is quietly forgotten about. I don't think it likely that Vorta Lady would react to Odo even if the founders had been planned yet, she is supposed to be a spy, reacting at all would be giving away too much. There is one thing I'd like to know about galaxy class ships if anyone can tell me. Which is theoretically more effective/deadly in a fight? A full ship, a ship split into Saucer and Battle sections (essentially two ships) or, just the battle section on its own? Could the Odyssey have fared better if they just left the saucer section behind or split before battle?

[@mapleicecream4819]

Great points about the Mary-Sueness of the Jem'Hadar being justified, I actually fully agree with you and I have to disagree with Lore's opinion on this one. In fact, the sheer Mary-Sueness of the Jem'Hadar is actually quite suspicious. Why put on such a show if you really _are_ that amazingly powerful? I wonder what tactical analysts in Starfleet would think to that. The theatrics that the Dominion engages in during this episode could actually be considered a strategic blunder. What have they gained from this, exactly? Apart from scaring some people in the Alpha Quadrant? Speaking as someone who knows very little about the Dominion, as I'm watching DS9 for the first time along with these Ruminations, the Dominion are acting like a huge power that hasn't fought anyone even slightly capable of threatening their existence for a long, long time. They seem pretty arrogant. Regarding the combat effectiveness of the Galaxy-Class: This is just from my own musings, but perhaps the Galaxy-Class is roughly equally effective in both configurations. When combined as a full ship, it's tougher than either part alone (as all power on both parts of the vessel is available), but when split it can be in two places at once, which is a clear advantage in battle. If this is the case, perhaps the reason the _USS Odyssey_ stayed combined as a single ship was to maximize survivability, and it was judged that the extra maneuverability that was lost as a result was compensated for by the up-gunned runabouts.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@mapleicecream4819 yeah, two ships lets you get more angles on the enemy, but the saucer has almost all the phaser strips. And can fire them harder with access to warp power.

[@patriottex4813]

Would have loved to see a Borg cube show up in the Gamma Quadrant. How would the Dominion respond to that? That is a DS9 movie or tv mini series right there!

[@Rashaed]

There are a few Dominion versus Borg what if videos out there. I think the Dominion would win a war against the Borg but they would exhaust all their resources in the process, ceasing to be a threat.

[@tbk2010]

Also love the Quark-Sisko stuff, though it feels a bit like a half-way self-deconstruction by the writers.Pretty sure Roddenberry would not have approved. DS9 occasionally touched on the self-contradicting nature of Federation culture and politics (especially in times of war), but it never entirely dismantled it either.

[@Norvo82]

The Vorta Eris not having any reaction to Odo might have been clever strategy on her part (she was there as an infiltrator after all). Or maybe, just maybe, she didn't recognize him. Who's to say the Founders didn't alter their appearance to be more welcoming and accepting to Odo, eh? When you're a race of shapeshifters, it's only polite.

[@athrunzala6919]

I think she didn't recognize him, The founders took on Odo's form in my opinion so Eris would have never seen a founder in that form

[@danielyeshe]

I think there are plenty of ways to explain Eris's lack of reaction to Odo. We have no idea where she was in the hierarchy. Heck this could have been her first mission.

[@vinylsolution2522]

Or.... Eris is a changeling ??? Undercover.

[@rexremedy1733]

Lore Reloaded makes the point that this version of Galaxy Class was equipped with armour. Otherwise it would not even lasted that long...

[@Mogwai786]

Lore Reloaded speculates a HELL of a lot. It takes a lot of unsubstantiated and makes it incontrovertible.

[@evertonporter7887]

The Odessey was holding out..until that Jem'Hadar suicide run. Reminds me of that A-wing pilot crashing into the Imperial destroyer in Return Of The Jedi.

[@nickokona6849]

So, I wonder exactly what point Commander Sisko caught on to the fact that the female Vorta was in on it. As was stated, it should have been pretty obvious that the capture involving her and Sisko/Quark was a set-up. So I wonder if he trying to "protect" her from Quark and be kind and sympathetic wasn't him trying to get her along her plan so he can figure a way out of it with her as a potential asset to mine for intel. If not for the Mary-sue beam out, that's what would have happened. Maybe that was Sisko's plan from minute 1. But then, you can go down rabbit holes like did Starfleet know there was a Dominion presence there that they might be able to get back to the Federation to use as an asset? They sent a Galaxy class ship to ensure the return of Sisko, Quark, and one potentially invaluable intelligence asset. Raises some interesting in universe stuff.

[@tee_es_bee]

27:30 Interesting read. I have read the battle a bit differently. It might be due to the angles they chose or just my ass being too stupid. I didn't feel that the ramming was correctly portrayed. I get that showing that we are more desperate than you is a viable tactic, I wish it would have been a bit of a different situation. A surgical kill after the disable would have been more in line of the cold calculus of ruthlessness the Dominion should show. I would have loved a more even fight, where one of the Dominion ship would be partially disabled with still functioning propulsion that does a ramming attack. I feel that would show more accurately why the authors were going for. Overall I would have toned down most of the episode across the board. I feel they were just pushing a little too hard to get your eyeballs in the first episode of the next season. In the "I know you liked my older brother and I am just as grim and can kick just as much ass as he did" kind of way. Feels a bit desperate. 🧡💛🧡

[@athrunzala6919]

I love how Sisko leaves getting their captors attention to un-ignorable Quark

[@frazerrhughess]

Finally we got here!

[@ValiantWrestling]

It's Gary Stu, not Mary Sue. Gary Stus are the male versions of Mary Sues. Jem'Hadar are male.

[@frazerrhughess]

To be honest while this is technically the beginning of ds9 becoming what ultimately will be I think The Search 1&2 (was that a 2part?) is really truly where the dominion becomes scary and mysterious and ancient and OP and all that good shit

[@jeffborowiak8992]

I liked this show through.

[@EnvisionerWill]

@Lorerunner: I assume that by using "little people" to describe Jake and Nog here, you meant it more in the sense of Game of Thrones calling the commoners "smallfolk", rather than referring to their literal physical size?

[@Lorerunner]

Basically yes. The idea being the 'smaller roles' in terms of nothing to do with their size. I mean have you seen Cirroc Loften? The man's a giant.

[@Infernal460]

The telekinesis power of the Vorta seemed time consuming and not very powerful. But it could it have been she was designed geneticly to have such powers which is not the norm.

[@athrunzala6919]

In the novels when the Dominion captured Batazed during the war, they had specially engineered telepathic Vorta to oversee the Batazoid citizens.

[@Infernal460]

The Jem hadars ability to beam over long distances might be from studying the Iconians tech. The personal shields might have come from the Hirogen.

[@celesteyar27]

No, the long-range transporters are very likely standard Dominion portable transporters. It's explained in Covenant that they have a range of 3 light-years.

[@subraxas]

Who in the hell is the "space wizard Makarov"?

[@venzybierxski7672]

Am I the only one here who thinks the captain of the Starship should have separated The saucer section prior to go into the wormhole. He was way over confident .and paid the price . No photon torps were fired off ether Hmmmm

[@Netherfly]

I'm inclined to give Ira Behr the lion's share of credit for turning DS9 around, chiefly because after DS9 he went and helmed The 4400, which was absolutely fantastic. Easily some of the best American sci-fi out there (it was basically Heroes, but well-written, before Heroes was a thing). It also featured Jeffrey Combs (Weyoun) in arguably his best role, Mahershala Ali, and even Summer Glau (who even had a romance subplot w/ Comb's character that was surprisingly less creepy than you'd expect given the age difference, with surprisingly little romance--probably because both characters were insane).

[@jeffborowiak8992]

It was a trap!

[@tbk2010]

Great, but in retrospect somewhat weird episode. Some of the things we learn or can infer about the dominion/founders from the first two seasons seems not entirely consistent with how they are presented later on. All of this can be explained away, but it is clear that the writers were making it up on the fly.

[@gallendugall8913]

I'll disagree, but mainly because the excuse of "I don't know how to write children" as an excuse for deliberately writing Wesley as obnoxious as they could because they flatly didn't want to write the character and were trying to get him pushed off the show. The excuse is basically "we're horrible hack writers who should have been fired" and it has always grated on me. Writing children isn't hard - it's basic writing. If you can't write children then you cannot write adults. Because adults are grounded in their childhood and those early years inform how they react to things through an overlay of experience and training. Children are missing those filters to varying degrees. Don't even get me started on maturity. If you can't write children then the adults you're writing are flat caricatures.

[@devonanderson2902]

Have you seen Lore's TNG rumination on When The Bough Breaks? He said (and I agree) that writing children is harder as an adult because children don't think like adults do. Adult writers can be good at writing adult characters because they can understand the mindset, they are adults after all, but writing children is much more difficult because you must remember what it's like to be a child. You can't write a child character as a romanticized version of your childhood-it won't seem real. Look at Bridge to Terabithia (the Disney movie). That is a totally romanticized look at childhood and comes across as unbelievable, with the exception of the extremely dark ending, but romanticizing the past is what we naturally do so it's hard to get past that. On the other hand, you can't write them as "tiny adults" because that is not how children act and everyone knows it immediately. It's hard to write children and I think Lore was right when he said that people who do it well should be recognized for it.

[@tomgriffiths2622]

☝️that vorta may have never seen a founder🤔