Lost Christianities

All modern Christian sects are descended from the early "proto-Orthodox" Christians who successfully defined their doctrines and practices as correct. John Hamer of Toronto Centre Place reviews the many early Christianities that lost out, including Jewish Christians who argued for the continued relevance of Mosaic Law and Gnostic Christians who rejected the Hebrew Bible altogether.

[@ObjectiveEthics]

Another masterpiece from the speaker. I am so grateful for the hard work and dedication that goes into these lectures.

[@constancetorseth1337]

I am an atheist who just can't get enough of these lectures. Fascinating stuff!

[@susanfell8974]

Same with the.

[@viron6734]

Same.

[@markanthonycoliinson873]

I'm an atheist, too, Constance and I enjoy these lectures tremendously.

[@exoplanet11]

Open question for atheists in North America: Would US be better off if 10% of American Christians abandoned religion entirely, or if 100% of them converted to a religion like that practiced at Centre Place?

[@luapnoerdlac9718]

I'm a follower of the father and I enjoy it ❤❤

[@LethalBubbles]

marcionites = original greek/pauline christianity, with a celestial "lower divinity/angel" jesus. proto-luke ("marcionite canon") is speaking to this group ebionites = original aramaic jewish christianity, with a human "adoptionalist" messiah jesus proto-matthew ("gospel of the hebrews") is speaking to this group gnostic = original mystery teachings, of the various non-literal christianities, not an offshoot bishops = a sect which only utilizes the literal teachings, the bishops are opposed to the christianities with mystery teachings, and label them "gnostikoi" (meaning "intellectuals" in a derogatory way, rather than "gnostics" as a title) proto-orthodox = roman imperial infiltration of the bishop sect, they tie the jewish and greek christologies together with the bishopian literalist interpretation, as the trinity doctrine

[@smroog]

An EXCELLENT history of early Christianity.. Very good lecture. Thank you.

[@vtalen]

Funny thing is the Bible doesn't teach of a being named Satan. Satan was any adversary

[@jtta8282]

Videos on this channel are vey very intresting but please keep sound high, on most of the videos of this channel volume is really low.

[@LuzRios]

Amen!

[@RomanPhilosopher]

Absolutely 💯

[@phataton8206]

Agree. 100%

[@maxsonthonax1020]

It may be comparatively low. It is not really low. Their sound system is fine.

[@ChicoEscuela]

It needs to be higher for all devices as others can turn volume down. Webcast 101

[@robinstevenson6690]

Further, despite the decision to purge Second Temple Judaic texts from the Judaic canon, elements of essenism and ancient Jewish Christianity (merkabah, hekhalot, Kabbalah) have remained in the form of Jewish mysticism to this day, and that it is practiced by some Christians.

[@ningenJMK]

Hi John and Toronto Congregation. The video presentation is great but the audio quality is lacking.

[@Impericalevidence]

I am so glad I found this channel.

[@minusstage3]

It's almost like two lawyers named Paul and James, had caused enough trouble for the high courts. So next, the Romans just said to heck with this anymore, and exterminated them both. /!

[@minusstage3]

True fishermen would understand the sun and the moon cycles and likely know the constellations a well. No?

[@KarlsKronicles]

The sacrifice of the Roman cult acknowledges the emperor as a god. Nothing like pledging allegiance to the flag as in the U.S.

[@vanhowell3011]

At 1 hour in, the works side of the faith vs works debate is outrageously misrepresented as mere empty observance of rituals and customs. But the Epistle of James makes it crystal-clear that's NOT what "works" means to James and his gang.. It says very emphatically that if someone shows up at your church who is cold and hungry, and you pray for him but offer him no food & no cloak, your religion is empty. This also comes in the context of farm workers getting cheated out of their wages by rich men who "have fattened their [own] hearts for a day of slaughter"! To say that James & Co are just getting persnickety over ritual observances is a complete distortion of the essence of the Paul-vs-James debate (although it's probably consistent with how Paul wants us to see it).

[@vanhowell3011]

I wrote the above before I'd listened beyond that point, and after hearing the rest, I guess Prof Hamer might agree there's more to it than just observing Jewish law, and I might agree that the law was a bigger part of it than I thought. But I still believe the dangerous sincerity of James and his congregation involved more fidelity to the rabble-rousing, revolutionary implications of Christ's teachings, whereas Paul was largely concerned with toning down the troublesome parts of the message and substituting his own neoplatonism or whatever it was. (Martin Luther, who sold out the rebellious peasants the reformation had inspired, wanted James erased. Luther's antisemitism as well as his sucking up to nobles and megaburghers was no doubt a factor.)

[@ANONM60D]

If you click the three dots by the comment there's a delete button. Feel free to use it at your convince.

[@tombutler7296]

@@ANONM60D WOW could you be ruder?

[@ANONM60D]

@@tombutler7296 I could try, but really my intent was to be informative seeing as he has already concluded that the subject he is commenting on has been thoroughly covered in the video. Replying to your own comment to correct yourself is redundant. Might as well just delete, this is why I explained because I assumed anyone that knew how to delete this comment would have done so.

[@68hellhammer]

Really enjoying these lectures (watching from Perth, Western Australia). John Hamer is an absolute fountain of knowledge, providing comprehensive and fascinating context in each lecture which helps frame the main topic. I'm not sure if John monitors these comments, but in case he does, and is in a position to answer, one question I would have is: was the James-led Jerusalem church/Jacobist church also the one that was known at various times as "The Way"? Also, I presume this group fell away after Paul's approach ultimately 'won out', but is there a modern day equivalent 'Jerusalem' church, and if so, how far back could it trace its origins as far as a connection between the original group of James? (Probably too protracted an answer to provide in KZbin comments?! Ha ha!). Most importantly, hope all is well :) Thanks. Matt

[@Thumbs81]

Did the lecturer play bass for Rush?

[@nosuchthing8]

Lead Singer. I will choose free will!

[@joelhague5515]

@@nosuchthing8 and bass, too. Geddy Lee played virtuoso-level rock bass AND sang at the same time.

[@GorgeousRoddyChrome]

Sound volume is too low on your videos. Much lower than other videos of this kind. Love your content!

[@tomhrio]

when someone gives you the mic during a QA that doesnt mean you can start telling your own stories and anecdotes

[@donkeysaurusrex7881]

I remember the time I derailed a comment section by telling my own story in response to a comment. Let me tell you about that time…

[@gardenvariety9957]

@@donkeysaurusrex7881 well played!

[@cariboubearmalachy1174]

Are you part of the congregation?

[@sparrowparas7156]

I believe they (the group mentioned in my previous comment above) were the 'losers' of the propaganda battle who were completely erased from history which represent 'True Christianity' precisely because they were the most human and not focused on a sophistic war of propaganda. The 'victors' basically focusing on the art of war and all its forms 'won'. The real followers of Isos have been erased from history.. but I can still see them and they can be reconstructed fully.

[@eui6037]

The literature of so called early fathers, circa 100 AD os available on the internet. Check it out and see if the continuity of early church and the church of the third and fourth century exists. Gnosticism was kicked out of the church in the moment it appeared. The time travel leeds to the great schism 1054 AD, and then Orthodx and Catholic Church.

[@magnuscritikaleak5045]

The winners of Religions are terribly misguided Slave Owners.

[@reolabranch]

One of my favorite lecturers. Thank you for putting this out there for us! Wish someone would edit out mic changes and unpleasant feedback lol

[@driveincanada9713]

♥️♥️

[@crossman3940]

Adds to the grlt

[@robinstevenson6690]

There was also a large dispersion of Jewish Christians south along the Red Sea, some who ended up in Axum/Ethiopia/Eritrea, and their descendants still practice a faith that has many Jewish Christian features (and texts). Coptic/Alexandrian Christianity also preserved and respected many of the Jewish Christian texts and values.

[@donkeysaurusrex7881]

Is this different from Oriental Orthodoxy?

[@yazeedbushnaq1925]

Right. There was also a huge Jewish community in the Arab Peninsula's areas of Medinah, Khaybar, and elsewhere (up till the birth of Islam).

[@xhorxheetxeberria-td1hu]

@donkeysaurusrex7881 There is Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox. Even though both words mean the same thing they use different words because they believe different things.

[@jfkt9467]

you mention the second century.... what about the first century... just after Jesus died?? the first 30-50 years??? who were the believers at that time?

[@happierabroad]

the audio is low. you should increase the audio volume first with format factory software or something. it's free.

[@idkidk7002]

Nothing in life is free.

[@esoteric_teachings]

You always have amazing lectures, I learn so much. Thanks

[@janlmc9048]

Your knowledge and explanations are mesmerizing and addicting for my understanding of religious history.

[@kosovir]

you don't need to know everything in life. eat, pray, love. the end.

[@maxsonthonax1020]

@@kosovir Relevant.

[@deborahmoshiek6943]

Thank you for this lecture. Extremely informative. I’m going to view this again although I’ll be taking notes next time. I liked and subscribed.

[@driveincanada9713]

♥️♥️

[@Rannsack]

Interesting lecture that goes into some nice details. However, the biggest flaw in the lecture is the unthinking use of the concept of "heresy" without any context. What is heresy? Where did the concept come from? It certainly isn't in the bible. In the bible Jesus is quoted speaking out AGAINST heresy, eg Luke 9:50; Mark 9:40. Only one sect of Christians used the word, in what century did they invent it? Heresy seems to be a very late invention of the Orthodox church to be used as a political tool. Valentinus was almost elected Pope, he was part of the mainstream church, but lectures like this make it seem like he was some sort of outsider. When we use words like "heretical" we are giving weight to one side of the issue, which is not the best way to do history. I'd like to see a lecture on these various christian groups that doesn't use the word "heresy" (except to say the Orthodox church classified those who disagreed with it as "heretics", a non-scriptural term that Jesus spoke out against). On another not, Mr. Hamer seems to portray the "secret mystery" aspect of Gnosticism as suspect. In fact, that was the norm for religions of the period. All the Greek Mysteries religions had people passing around secret knowledge in closed meetings. Even within Jewish culture, (as we know from Josephus), the Essenes had initiation rituals and secrets that needed to be learned. Gnosticism, seems a natural extension of that. If John the Baptists was an Essene, ( or at least, from the Essenic tradition as seems likely) then it would mean these essenic "secret teachings" would have been a part of the early Jesus movement. Jesus, after all, was baptized into Johns movement. Jesus also speaks in parables, which is a common way of passing on secret knowledge. Several times in the Gospels Jesus asks people to keep secrets and to keep certain knowledge or events secret. The Gospel of Mark itself seems to have the ending chopped off, perhaps, if one accepts Clements letter on secret mark, this was done because it was reserved for initiates. I think Mr. Hamer did not do justice to the importance and the validity of secret teachings within 1st century religion and displays a bias towards "open, everyone gets too to hear everything" religion which is a modern thing, and entirely out of place is the 1st century.

[@ChristopherWentling]

Marcion didn’t start outside the Church. He began in the church and was the son of a bishop. Same holds for Valentinius, the most important gnostic. The ebionites start isn’t documented so we aren’t sure but their end wasn’t by the Roman government or the Orthodox but instead they were absorbed into Islam.

[@RomanPhilosopher]

Do you have any videos on this subject you'd recommend?

[@ArmchairPhilosopher360]

Yes, all the great heretics were members of the clergy.

[@ChristopherWentling]

I do have a question though for those in the know, the info I have read seems to indicate that Calvin was not a member of the clergy but instead a secular lawyer. But then some sources mention he had a chaplaincy. Wouldn’t this seem to indicate he was a priest or is my presumed understanding of what a chaplaincy is wrong? It does mention he became a chaplain at 12 so was this position at the time a minor order and not ordained clergy?

[@kamion53]

@@ChristopherWentling His father intended Calvin and his brothers to become priests, Calvin himself was at 12 ( twelve) employed as a clerk by the bisshop and received the tonsure, probably as a preparation to become a priest, what never happenen. Instead he took a carreer as a lawyer. Which profession exlains wy his writing are so tedious.

[@ChristopherWentling]

@@kamion53 haha, I have thought about the fact that his theology is the most legalistic of all the reformers. No great shock coming from a lawyer. By legalistic I mean legal like. Not guilty does not mean innocent but instead it is a legal definition that means you are declared not legally sanctionable for the crime you have been charged with.

[@jfkt9467]

Can we say that modern Christians follow Paul, rather than Jesus??? (unlike Ebionites who really knew and followed Jesus,...)

[@smroog]

And your personal honesty is so refreshing. Constantly questioning what we REALLY know !!!!

[@jftucker]

Y’all would probably do really well if you started a podcast for your lectures!

[@DitoCapsuleFan]

Great idea!

[@driveincanada9713]

♥️♥️

[@hollymcquithey149]

Definitely agree! My only gripe is that if they made these lectures into a podcast format they should really limit audience interaction to the end as it creates a disruption in the flow of information. I also get the vibe in some lectures that the audience always wants to add more information to one-up John & it's really annoying. I wish people would just listen to the lecture and hold their questions until the end!

[@1CT1]

Romans 10:9 KJV “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” John 3:16 King James Version 16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and you will be saved. John 3:16 (share the good news of the gospel around the world!) Have a wonderful day/night, may the LORD bless you all, and farewell!,.,,,,,, Galatians 3:26 KJV For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

[@lynpugs]

Remember the Game Telegraph where you would whisper something to someone and they would repeat it too the next person and so on and so on then at the end the message was completely different? Remember that the next time you read the Bible.

[@nuggetoftruth-ericking7489]

Thank you for this. You would enjoy the theology of the Ancient Antiochene Church..it claims what you are talking about. TSW - Eric King

[@cmustard599]

Jesus H. Christ. The 'H' is for Howard. Its in the Bible. "Our Father, who art in heaven, Howard be thy name. "

[@peterhetherington914]

It was “Harold” not “Howard”

[@Darisiabgal7573]

@@peterhetherington914 No, no, it was Harley [Davidson]

[@hachwarwickshire292]

"Harold" obviously. Him being English ....

[@Knaeben]

i really enjoyed this lecture. I can't wait to watch more from this channel.

[@katrineyork1970]

@36 Jesus brothers and siblings. In my dad's family cousins called each other brother " brother Joseph, brother George, sister Theodora" never Joseph, George, or Theodora. It was strange to me as I saw them in the summer in the mountain during the family gatherings. And it is not a family of monks or priests. Only the ancient generation did that. I still have only 2 or 3 living uncles that do that. This habit is dying with the new generation. Strangely my mom's family never did that.

[@deborahmoshiek6943]

I noticed that a few of frescos in catacombs Jesus is holding a wand. Was Jesus seen as a magician by some Christian’s?

[@xhorxheetxeberria-td1hu]

Yes, because he performed magic.

[@howardaltemus9814]

Pagan: a person who lives in the countryside… Heretic: a person who thinks for themselves. Christian: a person who believes that they are GOD and thus have a right to judge and murder others in the name of prince of peace. WHAAAT? Now you know! God is a multiplicity(creation) operating from a unity/Oneness(Creator). Ancient Egyptian text from c.2500 BCE The God of the Bible are prob. the Elohim (plural) aliens or the Annunaki…ergo christians are polytheistic and not monotheists and do not workship(not worship) with the Creator.

[@TheCinamanic]

Lovely. As a Sunni Muslim this lecture is fascinating

[@fretnesbutke3233]

Any Muslim brothers and sisters:check out Let's Talk Religion on KZbin. The young man who makes it is an excellent scholar,I believe from Sweden. His Arabic is impeccable.

[@bass9351]

Y go 2 proper bible believing christian 2 tell u the truth. This guy is a liar

[@TheCinamanic]

@@bass9351 academia is not religious. It's knowledge such as the role played by religion in society. Chill

[@bass9351]

@@TheCinamanic stop claiming that this is fact and this is that u r not bible theologian or christian so stop with your venom lies

[@TheCinamanic]

@@bass9351 ok

[@112deeps]

Profoundly wonderful & reveling light on the Christ & his time. In Hindu religions similar to baptism in holy river of Ganges is routinely performed at the nexus of rivers at Kasi or Baneras... I get profound spiritual understanding on Christ's teaching from these talks. So much philosophical spiritual similarities.

[@michaelbaragan5594]

S

[@michaelbaragan5594]

E

[@k8eekatt]

You may enjoy the book, Autobiography of a Yogi, in which, Jesus appears to Babaji in India, and asks him to establish a line of meditation teachers to go to the West and reintroduce to Christians how to love God with their hearts as well as minds, through meditation. A variety of communities have arisen under the teachings of Yogananda.

[@112deeps]

@@k8eekatt its available free to read online read it long time ago. Hope to & Will read again thanks

[@robinstevenson6690]

It addition, the Greek Orthodox faith has been friendly toward / tolerant of various elements of Jewish Christianity, and that mysticism associated with ancient Jewish Christianity has been evident among certain religious orders, such as the Carmelites and Mt. Carmel Christians.

[@letsrelaxwithtexts2114]

The idea that Christians wanted to be persecuted in rome is controversial

[@lepidoptera9337]

Who wouldn't want to be set on fire alive, right? I mean, come on, that's a lifelong dream come true!

[@Patrick77487]

The more I learn about Christian history the more I feel vindicated in leaving. What a mess.

[@yakovmatityahu]

They left from among us because they were not from us, the reason they left is because it should be obvious that they didnt belong with us.

[@nosuchthing8]

It WAS a mess. Constantine forced everyone to fall in line.

[@solesurvivor7989]

​@@nosuchthing8No, the mainline Church did, Constantine was a supervisor of sorts who just wanted Christians to get along so he could hold power

[@rgcounts]

What does the messiness of Christianity have to do with Jesus though?

[@Patrick77487]

Which Jesus?

[@dalkri5546]

I'm sure Marcion would have loved John 8:44.

[@nicholasr82]

The Catholic Church invented bishops. It was taking Christianity and diluting it with previous, roman religions. So things like you can't eat meat on good Friday is a made up law or tradition. It was actually in honour of dagon worship. This was a fish god that for some reason looked down from the clouds. When he looked down, he would see his fish children and bless them but no one else. So the believer's of this would appoint bishops (which comes from the old word fish hops and these bishops would wear a fish head as a hat and walk around calling out to dagon. Dagon would look down and see this fish looking up at him and send a blessing but this was no fish just a fish hat looking up. And this is where the Catholic bishops miter hat comes from. Then there is the worship of Ashtaroth or astora. And there is baal worship all mixed with Christianity. You do know that the biggest movement in Christianity today is those that follow the Torah and the bible as is? They and I believe in the laws such as circumcision but in that as the bible says it is as being fulfilled so that instead of cutting off a bit of flesh, through the Holy spirit, all the flesh nature is circumcised. You are a lair concerning those Christians that were killed by the Romans. It was not like making a pledge to a flag at all, it was acknowledging Caesar as the god above all gods and they would not do it. You are a disgrace to those faithful in christ.

[@narcowake]

Bring back the Ebionites ! (Sans circumcision)

[@Thelastofusfan297]

I’m Back

[@narcowake]

@@Thelastofusfan297 ok what’s the next move??

[@johnbuckley8099]

This man is so well researched.

[@Peter-rg4ng]

Wonderful presentation, love this information on the gnostics and alternative branches of Christianity. Audio guy needs to be more more aware of his surroundings - walks right in front of camera?

[@smroog]

And your diagrams are great, easy to follow, as well as your other illustrations. Very Good job on the early Christian beliefs and significant players. Overall just a great presentation in a very easy to follow flow of information. Thank you.

[@driveincanada9713]

♥️♥️

[@NightDoge]

because he used to be a professional map maker, i think it explains why his diagrams are so good

[@Sonofthe1655]

Emperor Pontius Maximus Caesar Augustus 26BC 14AD introduced the first census birth date and surname in Syria the surname was usually your trade hence the terms trademark and trade-name if no trade your place of birth, that name is your supernomen meaning an appellation added to or over the baptismal name, marking every man woman and child his beasts of burden his aliens derived from the proto Etruscan word Alienus meaning slave, Yeshua knew of the deception being played on the Israelites and the Goyim (nations), as did their political and religious leaders hence His warning words of "woe to you scribes and Pharisees, prior to their enslavement thay had but one name followed by the appellation ben meaning son of or bat meaning daughter of he wasn't crucified for blasphemy as blasphemy wasn't a crime under Roman law.

[@n.lightnin8298]

Super insightful and underrated comment people forget the political aspects of the time and try so hard to make it completely supernatural Jesus was a revolutionary he threw down the money changers tables!!! like for instance most Christian’s treat Hebrew Jew and Israelite as interchangeable but in reality these are 3 very different cultures and in reality Israel and judea were not ever the same country in this time of history people forget or never even knew the King James Bible was penned in like 1609 not 1AD ABSOLUTELY NO Christian documents survive from that time unless you believe some of the Templar cryptos that say they found the marriage document of Yeshua bin Yusuf….

[@demetriusbooker5760]

That guy nearly knows early church history smh It was first in Jerusalem as there was Syrian Christians and the earliest churches in Armenia till Yeman

[@dapaulson1]

How could Peter be the bishop of Rome and yet put into a situation where he was martyred.

[@notgoodatmakingusernames9758]

That's a good point. Not to mention he was married wasn't he

[@kevinkall8547]

your whole premise is that Peter was first Bishop in Rome. there is zero evidence Peter was ever in Rome, so how could he have been Rome’s first bishop? should be evidence of it.

[@SaintSkanderbegus]

There's plenty of evidence that he was in Rome.

[@nanwuamitofo]

Jaded, cynical presenter with scoffing laughs. Pity. Because the content is interesting.

[@annascott3542]

Far from it.

[@ΑΝΤΩΝΗΣΣΜΥΡΝΙΟΣ]

Arians didn't denied the divinity of christ, they just thought that Jesus is a created god, the first created being. After God had created the Son, son had the duty to create all universe. Even Ebionites believ that Jesus is somehow a god. They believe Jesus is adopted by the Father.

[@johnkt1628]

very interesting lecture(s). can you tell what is the reason that Paul (who was a Jew) had to claim that Jesus was a God? why he needed such a "strong" claim? was it because he needed a God to cancel the old Laws of God (Shabbat, Non-Kosher, Circumcision etc)??? because a "simple" prophet has no authority to cancel God's laws??

[@lepidoptera9337]

Money, money, money.

[@johnkt1628]

@@lepidoptera9337 i do not understand what you are talking about

[@lepidoptera9337]

@@johnkt1628 Money, money, money.

[@MendTheWorld]

Your idea seems plausible. Who else could provide the required authority to revise God’s authority?

[@lepidoptera9337]

@@MendTheWorld Anybody has that authority. There is no valid ip claim or copyright on god. You want to invent something about it, just go ahead. Nobody can sue you.

[@ensenqui]

One can only see how important the influence of Jesus is in history, atheists will at least have to acknowledge that.

[@SaintSkanderbegus]

Even atheists and other "heathens" live in the 2023 year of our LORD. 😉

[@ingenuity168]

John is sporting the Jesus hair style 🤣

[@DarkMoonDroid]

Who else is for stretching it to 3 hours to accommodate questions?

[@YaoEspirito]

Paul was such a hustler.

[@yakovmatityahu]

He was the true Disciple of Christ Jesus.

[@YaoEspirito]

@@yakovmatityahu All the actual followers of Yeshua, all those who studied at his feet, as well as his brother James, viewed Paul as "the Enemy".

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@YaoEspirito no their is no conflict as you perceive...all the apostles were in harmony with each other...in the council of Jerusalem all agreed under the Holy Spirit....peter commended Paul in his letter as Apostle to gentiles...Jesus himself appointed Paul on the road to damascus as apostle to gentiles.

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@YaoEspirito read Bible

[@yakovmatityahu]

@@YaoEspirito their is not a single verse in the New testament where any apostle of Jesus saying that Paul is their enemy.

[@MendTheWorld]

So, religion(s), _including Cristianity_ evolved in the 1st, 2nd, & 3rd centuries just as it does today…. by a process of social Darwinian selection. New varieties and changes are implemented or simply appear, and the ones that gain traction, and have the most appeal, are the ones that thrive. Other variants either decline or disappear entirely. Every innovation of Christianity over Judaism and Paganism can be obviously and easily understood in this context. The new changes would have had obvious appeal to potential followers. The doing away with the laws of kosher (Hurray shrimp wrapped in 🥓), the stringent requirements for joining the faith, the promise of “pie in the sky”, etc. ALL these innovations explain the ascendancy of Christianity. Does any of this have anything to do with God? Ockham’s Razor certainly advises against it. The existence or role of God, or _a god_ is simply not necessary to explain the historical facts of the matter. We can account for Christianity in completely secular context.

[@nosuchthing8]

@Bhi fee I think he meant scientific not secular. All these early varieties of christianities were mutating and evolving to find the best version of the faith.

[@____2080_____]

Ways to approach an answer for this comes from continued questioning: Would the people of this time would consider themselves Christians or Jewish or are these modern re-writing of history to create a legacy to the past that never existed? Did Christianity really exist before it’s construction as a state religion of the Roman Empire? The four of these groups seem like a modern day amalgamation.

[@GravityBoy72]

We are supposed to believe that Jesus appeared to Paul and told him a whole lot of stuff he forgot to tell his followers whilst he walked around with them for years. Paul invented Jesus as the later "Church" sees him. James basically got rid of Paul after an argument with more or less "do what you like, leave us alone" .

[@placeswelive5388]

James' real Hebrew name is Yakov, not Jacob.

[@nosuchthing8]

Excellent stuff. Perhaps make it a practice that the volume on a normal phone at half is audible.

[From Ceará, interiour of Brazil] Man, John, you are good. One more lecture down. Noted and commented in my studies. I'm at the 6th of the ones I've watched atentionfully. Great detailed work.

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

I misread as "Lost Christinanities" and thought this would be an atheist lecture! LOL! I've seen a few of this guy's lectures recenty, he is quite good but allows far to much audience interruption. But Subbed, anyway. {:-:-:}

[@peterwelsh1932]

Nice Scratch Solo ~7:00 . There’s a famous group of DJ’s called “Invisibl Skratch Piklz” . I don’t know what that means but it sounds like y’all had an invisible scratch pickle attack…. Also: fascinating lecture 👍🏿

[@robinstevenson6690]

Jewish Christianity evolved in various ways (e.g., Nestorians/Ancient Church of the East), Miaphysite, non-Chalcedonian, and Arian Christianity, and today's Oriental Orthodox churches, including the Armenian Apostolic Church. Some Syriac Christians (e.g. Maronites) continued to practice their faith in and around ancient Judea/Galilee.

[@PatronSaintSpyridon]

It's no surprise you were silenced after denying the Truth of the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church while implying Jesus Christ a liar stating the the Gates of Hell shall not prevail.

[@nikhilwason5396]

Some questions are so dumb

[@auden5236]

I am gnostic by no means, but the quote “If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you.” gave me chills

[@kyledefranco6720]

I agree with the first poster. Great content! But double your volume.

[@nosuchthing8]

The volume is louder now

[@DisobedientSpaceWhale]

Satan enters the chat 😈6:53

[@briandillon8041]

Blasphemy 🤬

[@annwood6812]

I really enjoyed this. Learned so much, it's almost overwhelming, but I think I got the main points.

[@josephseneca4090]

His statement that there was no structure before Constantine is wrong. By 225 there was a clear structure with Rome having some form of primacy. How could there have been a council in 325 if there was not already a highly developed authority structure. The Pope communicated with Constantine and the council.

[@cinnamondan4984]

As a LDS I am loving this

[@kamion53]

@ 2:10:45 The spread of Christianity went along the network of social and family relations, complete strangers hardly convert to a new religion, maybe one in a thousand. With about 6 million Jews living in Diaspora against about a million in Judea that there rose more questions about interpretation in the Diaspora then in Judea. There also was far more change of exchange of idea's and believes with non-Jews in the Diaspora then in Judea. Judea seems to me to have been a pretty inward turned society with enough troubles to survive as a nation to become influenced by outside idea's that almost always were associated with those of the "oppressors" They were so inward turned that they even closed the door with other Jews livib in the land like the Samaritans. Not much of a surprise the Ebionites emerged in Judea as they look more like a BornAgain Judeist movement then Christian ( with a parrallel to BornAgain Christianity) How much open mindness can one permit living in a situation that was constant reminded the heart of Judeism, nl the Temple, could be usurped by pagans every day. The changes in 2nd Temple Judism, the idea's about Duality, did not started in Jerusalem but in Mesopotamia when Jews lived in close contact with non-Jews. on Paul telling the godfearers a happy message I would say the reaction would be more like the average reaction on a Jehova's Witness knocking at one's door. Nl: I've heard about JW, but I don't know you, so sod off. Those godfearers knew their Jewish neighbours, could talk and walk with them, but did not knew Paul, so why would they listen to a complete stranger?

[@kofiata]

Your point? The Jews at home in Judah wouldn't have listened to paul or the gentiles (foreigners) wouldn't have listened to him?

[@kamion53]

@@kofiata I would not equate Gentiles with foreigners or pagans as the greek word used ETHNOI is often translated. It may sound strange but I think ETHNOI was a term used for secular or assimilated Jews in Diaspora or at least a part of the population in the Greek cities that had solid Jewish roots. And like 3th or 4th generation Maroccans or Turks settled in West Europe those Gentiles kept in contact with the Jews of Judea. I just wondered why the gentiles were not just straighout called pagans or heathens like in the Old Testament. And Jews in Judea would surely listen what uncle Shlomo, who had a triving business in Ephese or Corinth had to say when visiting patria..... before dismissing it right out of hand. They may even had listened to what the non-Jewish business of uncle Shlomo had to say, but to a fellow unrelated in kin of business from the same region they would not listen. I think we are left pretty much in the dark to what extant Paul did have a network of relations in Judea or in the Diaspora. He seems to have some in Thessalonica, Ephese or Corinth. otherwise his Epistles would have ended in the dustbin like the latest JW flyer pressed in one's hand. In Judea he seems to be known but not have much relation to work with.

[@kofiata]

@@kamion53 Ok, thanks.

[@IsraeliteDefense]

@@kamion53 what source did you use to come to the conclusion that the Gentiles were diaspora Jews?

[@kamion53]

@@IsraeliteDefense No particular source, just a conclusion on various element as I explained in my first post. but I got the idea's about spreading of religion from Rodney Stark and his main thesis is that religion doesn't spread without an excisting network. When Paul claims to be the disciple of the Gentiles, he is tapping in that network , a network that excisted long before him and that was Jewish in roots and tradition.... hence Gentiles are Jews in Diaspora. Paul also adresses in one of his early letters bishops and deacons... that implies there was already a form of organisation excisting before he had his epiphany on the road to Damarcus. ETHNOI is a term only mentioned in the Greek Christian literature. I would be intresting to know how the conserverative Jewish elite adressed the semi assimilated Jews in Diaspora.

[@emmanair8922]

I have a Master of Ancient History from a decade ago and am loving these lectures too.

[@yolandosoquite3507]

Do you think The Gospel of Salvation was spread by Angels with Wings (including the 7 Bowls) or by Messengers called Men(11 Disciples)?.And when did The Gospel(The Word) started to Spread around the World.. was it only during the Conquest & Colonization era of European Conquestadors? To have a proper Geography & Compass orientation is to know the exact Location of the Author of Revelation(John)..Revelation 7:2And I saw another angel ascending from the east...Was John in Patmos or in the Island of Pateo?..John was the Angel that Ascended in the East..East is always where the Sun & Moon Rises...Patmos in the Agean Sea/Turkey and Africa are too far far away from the East..The East in Africa is just a LOCAL East..The True East(The Vast Pacific Ocean) is where the Sun & Moon Rises. The 7000 islands is in The Vast Pacific Ocean and among these Islands ,John The Revelator settled together with Maria Magdala after the Destruction of the Temple(46 years to build) in 70AD.

[@markcharron]

While it may be that there was a Jacobite or "Jamesian Church" (and later Ebionite church) concurrent with the Pauline, Proto-Orthodox one (and we can debate how opposed they were to each other).. to suggest that Marcion and the Gnostics were on the scene with Paul and the Proto-Ordodox immediately after Jesus is false. What seems to be the case is the Proto-Orthodox and Paul were there first (1st century), perhaps along with James and his church, and it wasn't until the 2nd century that these Marcionites and Gnostic types indeed "splintered off."

[@davidchurch3472]

The 'faith' or 'works' polemic is a false division really : a person who has faith must follow the works instructed by the faith they have; whilst nobody would do the works unless they had faith that this ws the rigth thing to do! And the argument about the Disciples' illiteracy probably boils down to the perspective of the Greek viewer. Compare to a nearer modern situation, where the Chinese person, who can speak modern Chinese, Mandarin, a local dialect which is completely different, and also Japanese, and also basic English, but must be totally illiterate because they cannot recognise or read Roman or Greek letters, they can only read or write in 'squiggly pictures' - although they may be able to read and write 3 languages each consisting of 200 'squiggly pictures'. Aramaic may have been later written using Greek letters, but initially was with a different set of 'pictures' that may even have resembled the Hebrew 'pictures' of today. like the explanation of James = Iago = Jacob ++++ I am not so sure that the Jerusalem Church were all destitute 'mendicant' beggars, though. I think the point is that they included all peoples, including the destitute, and by virtue of sharing they had no monetary belongings, but the point is that they shared what they had, not that they relied wholly on charity from others outside the group. They would not have lasted long. Shared land and effort in farming, and trades exchanged for moeny, but could be then shared between all, possibly with giving of charity to group members who really were unable to suport themselves by work?

[@PauldeSwardt]

I have been self-studying this subject for years and this has been a comprehensive overview with very clear graphics and textual examples that I have seen on youtube. Maybe a good analogy to early Christianity would be the figure of Karl Marx whose revolutionary idea lead to a plethora of movements claiming to be his true message. Socialism,Communism,Marxism,Trotskism,Leninism,Stalinism,Maoism et al.

[@GODHATESADOPTION]

Its all just judaism aka satanism

[@mysteriousjungalist]

@@GODHATESADOPTION LOL

[@pirbird14]

The difference is that Marx left us an extensive body of work defining his ideas, as did all of the followers you've mentioned. We can compare what his followers said with what he said. With Christianity, neither Christ nor his immediate circle left us anything that survived.

[@GODHATESADOPTION]

@@pirbird14 its called the bible...

[@pirbird14]

@@GODHATESADOPTION Jesus wrote the Bible? lol

[@chrisp4170]

Would be even better with decent sound

[@valeriej.chapin4553]

Sorry, Constantine started the first big heresy, with those who were actively killing the real followers of The Nazarene and HIS Apostles, Disciples and Followers. Sad The Truth is put in the shadows.

[@julesverne2509]

if you want topics on Christianity you'd be better off using Christian sources. They seem to be more accurate and care about what actually happened a bit more.

[@richards8916]

Suzanna Maria Emmanuel (Jesus reincarnated) reveals through Sovereign Lord Emmanuel the Great (the lord of the bible) that Jesus didn’t die on the cross and went to Glastonbury to prepare for this time.

[@valerieprice1745]

Anyone who uses the word "narrative" to describe the Tenney's of the faith is so unstudied in ancient works, and so contemptuous of higher principles and ancient wisdom, much less the contempt for a higher power than their own flesh, they lose credibility. Arrogance is unbecoming in anyone. It's actually distasteful, because it prompts negative emotion in people who aren't narcissists. Narcissists gravitate towards it, indulging their own arrogant contempt and hostility towards good people.

[@chriswilcocks8485]

Excellent but questions were annoying. Surely better to keep questions to end rather than disturbing the flow.

[@vhawk1951kl]

Presumably the ies suffix on Christianity is to avoid overlap with accusations in relation to Needleman's excellent book lost christianity

[@benjaminbowman3342]

Who is this person who keeps hijacking this mans lecture. By the end you can tell he's like getting a little fed up with it. She goes from asking questions to just outright making comments.

[@MrNTF-vi2qc]

Well done presentation. Some flaws and some incorrect things said and perhaps a little bias but overall pretty alright.

[@jamesbusald7097]

The Flavians first came to power after they destroyed the druids at Anglesey. They were given the task of the Jews because they did this once before.

[@robertarnold3394]

Hmm. I thought Paul was saying that without Agape, neither faith, nor works alone are sufficient .

[@THEScottCampbell]

The lecturer's. mocking laughter is unbearably annoying.

[@shanejohns7901]

The religion tracks somewhat with the philosophical debates/progression of Platonism to Neo-Platonism to Aristotelianism.

[@Darisiabgal7573]

Another presentation very well done

[@Iknowknow112]

I’ve got a lot of problems with this talk but I’m not gonna bore you with all of them. Marcion’s outlook did not disappear bc *the story had problems * (since when has logic anything to do with religion in the first place- Christians don’t believe that Satan is a god, logical? and 3 gods only means 1 god logical?) Marcionism died because it was killed by a rabid power hungry Catholic Church . Earlier Marcionite churches were the dominant forms of Christianity in many parts of the empire, indeed in some places they were the only form of Christians. Also there is no evidence that Gnostics looked at their psychic co-religionists as “dupes”. I don’t have time to enter into the validity of the term “Gnostic” because that has been handled by people far more qualified than myself .

[@sebolddaniel]

Awesome lecture. Makes me want to go to Hippo and hang out with the hippos

[@galaxymetta5974]

Paul lied repeatedly to downplay jewish role in order to create a Christianity for the gentiles. 1) Paul admitted he lied in Romans 3.7, king james, For if the truth of god be abounded by my lie unto his glory, why yet am i also judged a sinner. 2) Paul lied again by twisting the precious zion foundation stone in isaiah 28.16 into a stumbling stone and rock of offence in Romans 9.33. 3). Paul lied again by twisting following the law required in deut 30.14 into following faith in Romans 10.8. 4). Paul lied again by twisting jeremiah 31.32 (on Israeli breaking god covenant although god was a husband unto them) into hebrews 8.9 (Israeli break god covenant so god regarded them not).

[@glenn-younger]

That was a great presentation! Thank you so much for sharing. This is one to listen to over and over again, especially in light of what we're living through today with sooooo many different points of view, held with such passionate conviction. Once again, it reminds us of the importance of listening within to discover the truth of our own Divine within.

[@arturofuente4832]

"...the truth of our own Divine within." So you think you're 'deus?'

[@danfield6030]

@@arturofuente4832 the Deity is within......our soul is Devine. It is interesting how Kabbalah has the Tree Of Life (Etz Ha Chayim) as the symbol of both the Cosmos (the Body Of God) AND as a symbol of the HUMAN BODY. Macrocosm and Microcosm. This is is Genesis (allegorical) as "..man was made in the image of God". We are the Deity ! Every tradition has this wisdom across the world ,except sadly in the case of 99.9% of Christianity which tends to suffocate the real SOUL or Divine Within......they seem to be in fear of the Soul....they run from it and try to stomp it out in their own children as well as any other culture which may celebrate this "rising within"

[@corneliuscapitalinus845]

Sounds like rejuvenation of the narcissistic self worship (which abounds in the Materialist, "enlightened" Age), expressed in a semi-spiritual manner.

[@glenn-younger]

@@corneliuscapitalinus845 "Narcissistic self worship". It is narcissistic if one operates from the human ego-intellect and thinks that's all there is so he/she knows best. Power games are often the result. I'm speaking of going BEYOND the human ego-intellect. Letting go of what our ego thinks it knows to discover Divine Guidance from deep within. That Divine Guidance most often brings forth elements of compassion and definitely Unconditional Love manifest in some form. We're all capable of hearing that guidance, even if many don't choose it, or unaware of it.