LOST LETTERS OF THE ALPHABET: 9 letters we stopped using

[@acorneroftheinternet4179]

Heads up for mobile typers! Þ: hold T, choose Þ Æ: hold A, choose Æ Đ: hold D, choose đ Œ: hold O, choose œ Bonus! For ‽, just hold (?) If youre like me, it wont come up when holding M to get ?, you have to go to the second page of characters instead. I couldn't find the eNG one unfortunately, i hope one of you can!

[@swagattttt]

Æ œ

[@CommonCommiestudios]

You can do ŋ from a mobile keyboard by holding ŋ

[@xqzcri]

I can’t do the t it doesn’t work I I’m sorry 😭😖😢

[@darkflare1224]

True d is ð

[@triatic9476]

Thanks, but đ is actuallu different

[@hamishwsmacdonald]

The “long s” survives in the modern German letter ß, which is a double s (eg Strasse / Straße). The left hand side of the letter is a long s

[@ianrogerburton1670]

Thanks for info ! Been living in Austria and Germany for over 40 years and I didn´t know that. Always remember seeing Neuschwanstein Castle for the first time whilst wondering why it was called a "SchloB" whlst thinking the ß was a B !

[@ArturoStojanoff]

The difference between the ß and a double ss is that the double ss makes the previous vowel short, whereas the ß makes the previous vowel long.

[@ianrogerburton1670]

@@ArturoStojanoff Thx for Info ! This naturally gives most German-speaking people and certainly most German-speaking kids a headache. The last that I heard was that the powers that be were trying to make the ß obsolete. I meanwhile fondly call the ß a "SCHLOB" with a B at the end after mis-reading Schloß Neuschwanstein.

[@shreyanodoyto5975]

It's a long s with a tailed z

[@BNOHVTHHisGD]

To get ±, hold +, choose ±. To get ‽, hold ?, choose ‽.

[@bernhardwagner9879]

Thank you for filling in those obvious holes. I was born in Germany and came to America at age ten with no clue of American English. I learned fast and had to dump the accent in a hurry just to fit in. In high school I chose a language major and became a Latin scholar. Curiously that led me to become a high school art teacher for 35 years and a teacher teacher for five more after that. That also included 24 years of night school or adult education. Latin was so a part of me that I used every opportunity to include Latin word origins in my lesson both for the kids, adults and colleagues. I had 40 great years of passing on my my modest knowledge. I wish you had been around to enhance my etymology. I love your presentations. They give me great pleasure.

[@RalphBellairs]

You mean "Þhank you for filling in þhose obvious holes"! 😄(Sorry...I couldn't resist!)

[@MultiTimelady]

Oh darn, would have loved to be one of your students.

[@tookiecar1]

⁠@@RalphBellairsthhank thhose

[@WelshRabbit]

@@RalphBellairs Of course, the thorn subsumes the "h," too, so it'd be just [thorn]ank and [thorn]ose...., right? Cheers.

[@BrookieBearMama]

I love how you smile while explaining the history. I can tell you love it and that’s infectious! Great teacher.

[@Run.Ran.Run1]

I'm an ESL teacher and it's explanations such as this that give my students the rationale they need to help them grapple with spelling and pronunciation. Students from phonetic languages like to know why English looks different from the way it sounds. Thank you.

[@Bonnieham]

All the more reason to modernise English. China completely changed the earlier English translations of Chinese for English speakers so as to make it clearer for them, and also easier for Chinese to understand English speakers when using Chinese words. Eg. Peking to Beijing. English is way behind in upgrading spelling to reflect common parlance.

[@Run.Ran.Run1]

@@Bonnieham I don't know. I'm not convinced that the common usage should determine the core of a language. Where do you look for THE proper sound, hence spelling? Where do you draw the line in this reductionist world of inclusiveness that reaches for the lowest common denominator? Thumb typing exclusionary lingo and acronyms does not a language make. I'd rather advocate for more history of a language be included in its learning. The "why" is much more interesting than leaving such a task to today's, sorry to say, idiot on the street. Just look at the ridiculous preferences the EU makes of their version of English. Did you know there's something called EU English? It's based on what continental northern European technocrats consider more understandable to them. No, thank you.

[@iwatchwithnoads7480]

Coming from a language that does have letters for quite a few of these sounds, I always wonder what kind of idiot wrote the English alphabet

[@ingenuity23]

@@Run.Ran.Run1 language exists to facilitate human communication, its history although significant has not meaning if it becomes a garbled relic which doesn't serve its purpose. gatekeeping language is a frankly miserable thing to do so i hope you realise why simplifications become necessary at times

[@Run.Ran.Run1]

@@ingenuity23 A consistent language facilitates communication. "Gatekeeping" as you call it, is much more consistent than letting just anyone decide how to say something. As I've mentioned before, I hope the "thumb typers" in the world aren't the ones who decide to simplify language. That would simply be dumbing down.

[@Nyxwraith]

I once met a guy whose name was Thorn. When I suggested he spell his name using the letter, he seemed confused. Also, thank you for telling me how to pronounce Menzies.

[@williamparis500]

Careful because in different parts of Scotland it's pronounced differently. Ming-es, Men-zies and I've heard it pronounced Mint-ez in the west!

[@thethirdman225]

@@williamparis500 Australian Prime Minister Robert Menzies, who was of Scottish heritage, was known as ‘Ming’. Now I know why. Thanks!

[@danieljob3184]

We had a PM named Menzies. Guess what his detractors liked calling him? Minge = synonym for female pubic hair.

[@TBIhope]

@@williamparis500 so would Mckenzie be pronounced like mckengie?

[@alexlobry4335]

It would be great to bring back thorn and eth to differentiate between the voiceless thorn and voiced eth forms of the interdental fricative consonant. We already do it with the voiceless/voiced pairs like p/b, t/d, f/v and s/z.

[@kaitlinc8180]

As a vocalist who uses a lot of IPA, it's so cool to see that a lot of symbols used in that were used in English way back when!

[@Helicopter7]

Ok

[@RobWords]

Yes! Amazing that all the symbols seem to have been used somewhere at some point. Surprising how many of them were in English!

[@thanosdude_4457]

yep

[@thebeartubechannel7022]

actually, the IPA was started in England so it does make some sense

[@eyeofthasky]

@@RobWords its not really surprising as IPA was invented by euro-centric people only backin on their past, and diregarding a real international aspect in this system so most languages outside europe have to suffer to invent ad-hoc solutions cuz IPA has no means to express whats needed, and i say that INCLUDING all those diacritis... if u can it charge up with diacritics until it looks like an E̗̚x̳̓a̰̖̓ͤm̭̜̪ͬ͌ͦp̻͔̞̐̈́͐l̳͈̞̤̐ͣͨ̆e̫͖̝̞̝͒̊̃̏̐ of zalgo text and *still* it cant deliver the right features of articulation, then u know it's really _not_ .

[@katiejo911]

I really enjoy your language discussions and have watched many of your videos. Word origins have always been fascinating to me. I was in first grade in 1963, with Sisters of Mercy in a Catholic school. The nuns taught us some interesting things. First, our vowels were "A, E, I, O, U and sometimes Y and sometimes W." W occasionally had an oo sound like in ooze. (I think it may be Welsh?) They also told us rooves was plural of roof. So at Christmas there were "hooves on the rooves". Plus (plusses) they taught us that the plural of BUS is BUSSES, with 3 Ss, not BUSES. Please keep posting, Mr. Rob, and thanks!

[@garethaethwy]

W is indeed a vowel in Welsh, along with Y. And proper vowels too, not them part-time vowels in English.

[@kavikv.d.hexenholtz3474]

The "Tironian et" is still used when writing Irish or Scott's Gaelic in the more traditional uncial script. It is also why, in Europe, the number '7' typically has the crossbar through it - to distinguish it from 'and'.

[@svetlanastarkova4392]

Thank you for your comment, I always wondered!

[@occamraiser]

ahhh, now there's a nice little factoid to add to my collection of interesting trivia. Thanks!

[@cenimirius]

We, Serbs, believe that number seven has the crossbar through because we decided to reject the seventh commandment.🎉

[@babboon5764]

MAYBE NOT .......... Modern Westen numbers were mainly 'borrowed' from the Arabic scholars In their original form the number could be deduced from counting the angles formed by the shape Unfortunately the shapes have morphed over the years and its no longer so obvious, but imagine an 8 as two boxes or a 2 shaped like a Z and you'll start seeing the patterns

[@faeriefriendable]

@@cenimirius I had to look it up. Thanks

[@harleengraves6538]

We need to bring back Þ. It's Þe best letter ever made

[@Scivolemulo]

@JOSHUA BEYER I þink we should

[@8thorpe]

@@user-op6bx6mw9h it would go between h and i

[@fiftybillionyears]

“Ðe” is “the”

[@NFGLucy]

A B C D E F G Þ H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y & Z

[@Astro-Markus]

And it looks like 😛.

[@Bazroshan]

As a child in the nineteen-sixties, I noticed on old pub signs that there were two types of what I thought to be Y, one with tail going left, the other with the tail going right. Years later, I learnt about thorn but the old pub signs had all been replaced, leaving me to doubt my memory. The signs I remember had probably been written fifty years earlier by sign-writers educated in 1900 who were aware of the old ways. Upon moving to Reading, I found the George Hotel in King Street, the frontage of which bears the ancient but nicely renovated 'Ye George MDVI', the first letter clearly being thorn with the tail bending towards the right.

[@Perririri]

OK, Boomer!

[@CrazyMazapan]

@@Perririri Your point being? Go take your meds, you're embarrassing yourself

[@CrazyMazapan]

I'm not an English speaker, but I always wondered why it was Ye Old when Y and TH were nowhere near in appearance or pronunciation. Now I know!

[@MultiTimelady]

I didn't know that I was mispronouncing those signs. Glad to know what "ye" really is

[@AlbertoFolres]

What a great channel. Thank you for your dedication and passion you put in your videos. It is great to learn more about English

[@Fieari]

For most of these, the replacements we have are perfectly fine and there’s no reason to go back. W works. & as well as simply “and”/“ond” works. But English orthography has no current way to distinguish between a voiced and voiceless “th”, so either “eth” or “thorn” or both would be a great thing to bring back.

[@goodmaro]

Meanwhile we have redundancy in the form of the "x", which can be replaced by "ks", and the troika of "c", "k", and "s", of which we need only two. And then there's "y", which in French is the "Greek e", which could arguably be eliminated.

[@Kyrelel]

@@goodmaro The US tried to 'phoneticise' English ... and just look at the result :/

[@craigcarmichael5748]

Ya, ðat's like not differentiatiŋ between "F" and "V", "S" and "Z", "SH" (where'z its letter? Use Russian "Ш"?) and "J" (as in fusion).

[@andeve3]

English could use dh and th to distinguish voiced and unvoiced, much like Icelandic uses ð and þ. Honestly, dh is a nicer looking digraph than th.

[@mathy4605]

@@andeve3 I think I might have a problem aDHering to that.

[@nimi-nae]

I am absolutely over the moon that I found this channel. Right up my interests. Love linguistics.

[@iEC14]

This is about to explode in the recommended and get millions of views... We are the pioneers! Great video! Its crazy how letters and rules can just be forgotten or removed!

[@hrdlbrmpf2]

Rob, Du bist fantastisch! Ihr Angelsachsen könnt sowas am besten. Keep on truckin`!

[@dentwatkins2193]

I really enjoyed this video. I found it by accident but took a look as I recently spent a few years working in Iceland (the country, NOT where mums go to shop!) so I'd been introduced to thorn, eth, and ash. I never did get far with my attempts to pick up Icelandic because my students all seemed to want to practice their English on a native English speaker as their exams were in English. About the third or fourth year out there I discovered that one of my students had an Australian mother. I asked him how long she'd been there and he replied "About twenty-eight years." I then asked how good her Icelandic was. With a grin on his face he replied "It's getting there." I've subscribed now and look forward to exploring the rest of your vids as language fascinates me. Thank you.

[@UltraZelda64]

I have to say, that old anglo-saxen alphabet song was just awesome... how about a looped or full version?

[@MultiTimelady]

That alphabet was cool

[@tux_duh]

He had a link in the vid, I'll grab it

[@tux_duh]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2aoqImJaLhnaJY

[@grasslure8893]

1:20

[@Noswiatel]

@@Skeptimystic awesome

[@Amyduckie]

Definitely bring back thorn, eth and eng. Seems way more efficient to have a single letter to denote a single sound instead of two letter combos.

[@julesgosnell9791]

I don't think you need both Eth and Thorn - although we still do make a distinction in our pronunciation of the voiced and voiceless 'th' variant, I can't think of any word pairs that are distinguished just by these two sounds ? This may have happened after Eth was lost - maybe it was replaced by Thorn which was then replaced by 'th'. I'd be happy to just have Thorn and Eng.

[@julesgosnell9791]

I've done a bit more research - we need both Thorn and Eth: thigh:thy, ether:either, teeth:teethe. See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_English_%E2%9F%A8th%E2%9F%A9#:~:text=In%20English%2C%20the%20digraph%20%E2%9F%A8th,%2Ft%CE%B8%2F%20(eighth).

[@IN-pr3lw]

Just learn the Shavian alphabet for English :) wayy more efficient

[@undefinednull5749]

have you heard about CHINESE?

[@spankynater4242]

There are so many two letter combos, that your plan would become unwieldy.

[@petrusliger3717]

C'est une de mes chaînes préférés. Drôle et passionnante à la fois. Continuez Rob !

[@lanjieke]

You, my fellow British linguist, deserve many more subscribers! Great job!

[@Donut-Eater]

There's the Ash (Æ æ), There's the Edh (Ð ð), There's the Ethel (Œ œ) and the Thorn (Þ þ), There's the Wynn (Ƿ ƿ) and the Yogh (Ȝ ȝ), All of these are no more, There was also Ampersand (&), But that's still around

[@RobWords]

Music to my ears. Bravo 👏👏👏

[@heavenlydusk]

How do I type ampersand-

[@NyoomMonster]

I found þorn!

[@Donut-Eater]

@@heavenlydusk it's a very common symbol, if you use a standard PC keyboard you type it through shift+7, if you have a different keyboard I can't remember on the spot right now

[@heavenlydusk]

@@Donut-Eater oh okay, I'll try to type it :')

[@jtveg]

Very fascinating history of the evolution of the letters used in English. The long "s" always fascinated me and I tried to gauge what grammatical rules it followed ie never at the end of a word not before or after an actual "f" etc, but I found out like the rest of English grammar it was never consistent, had many exceptions and changed over time and often depend on the publisher. Thanks so much for sharing. 😉👌🏻

[@katerbilla]

In German: "Round s" (the normal letter) was used at the end of words and syllables, "long s" at the start and mid of words (as long as it was not the end of a syllable too). That's also the reason why whe have "sharp s"=ß in German: it is, for example in the word "dass" => "daſs" the use of these rules: long s in the mid, round s at the end. Later the typesetters combined it, thus the ß.

[@RustOnWheels]

I always enjoyed a Warfteiner or two… Shame that they changed it for the lack of typographical awareness.

[@robertfitzjohn4755]

Almost certainly unconnected, but Greek sigma also has a variant used at the end of a word, as in Ὀδυσσεύς (Odysseus).

[@pjcarter8230]

Hi Rob Thanks again for an interesting post. My son still uses Thorn when he messages his mother and me. He is interested in the Anglo Saxon and Early Medieval periods and even has his 'phone set up to use a few of these old letter especially Thorn.

[@warrenpennick2979]

Rob, I had NO idea the topic of your videos was something I would geek out over, but I LOVE IT! Thank you!

[@mechablaziken1216]

Thorn is definitely a useful letter that should make a come back. Some of these letters would definitely help especially when trying to teach English and to learn some of the other more complex languages in the world.

[@carultch]

I prefer Eth and Theta as the way to tell apart the two TH sounds. Although, I think eth could use a better name, where it is easier to pronounce the consonant of its name, in a way that reflects the sound of the th in this.

[@luckyperga]

@@carultch eth literally just sounds like f tbh

[@nallid7357]

@@luckyperga the th and f sound make distinct sounds in my mind, like how I can hear the difference between eth and th even though they sound very similar. Just like how a Hindi speaking people can hear the difference between a and aa even though in Western languages they don't sound different. It's just about what you grew up with.

[@raulkyamko6825]

Although, one problem. þorn porn

[@carultch]

@@raulkyamko6825 If you grew up your whole life knowing that þorn was pronounced as thorn, you wouldn't mistake it for porn. Just as you don't mistake born for porn. Yet if you speak Finnish as a first language, you'd probably have a lot of trouble with this particular example, since b and p to them sound identical. Good luck trying to say crab cakes, as it would sound like "crap cakes".

[@meakimon]

Æs a Norwegian, I'm sitting here enthralled by this video. We still use Ææ Øø Åå. ^^ Also, I had no idea that futhark came from Anglo-Saxon. Learning new things is fun. ^^ So I will contribute! The "older" way of trying these letters in Norway, I was taught, was: Æ = AE. Ø = OE. Å = AA. ^^ Nifty! Though I am trying to teach my friends abroad how æ, ø, and å are all sounds in the English alphabet still! Maybe I can simply link them one of your videos. ^^

[@John_Weiss]

Actually, Futhark came from old germanic runes that themselves split into Old Norse Runes and Old AngloSaxon Runes.

[@Gege88470]

Þþ

[@liudmilaoberfeld1420]

Just watched this video twice with my 6-year-old son who just started learning English last year! All the edutainment things you used and the puns won him over instantly! You are a brilliant educator!

[@atlanteanoccupieduser]

Þat is a ðiŋ. Þe ðree planets aka Mercury, Venus, Earþ. Ðat is the þiŋ, eachoðer. The ash is smooþed to Æ. But what is it? Each leŧer is a Eþel. Subpœna, and Diaŗhœa. The Neþer, agh. It is the Æther in Minecraft. This is the 9 lost letterſ in the alphabet.

[@alyanahzoe]

@@atlanteanoccupieduser you got the joke!

[@nickf3242]

Beautiful locations. Your calm demeanor and eloquent speaking make it easy to follow along and learn. You make language fun and fascinating to learn about as an adult. Thank you for sharing your love of language.

[@RobWords]

This is very kind, thanks Nick.

[@glyphee]

Just found this channel, the quality of the animations feels like that of a channel with a couple ten thousand subscribers. Hopefully you will be there soon.

[@RobWords]

Thank you! Here's hoping...

[@TheMimiSard]

I first met þ in Tolkien, who used it in an obscure backstory part of LotR in the story "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", which tells a tale about how the Elves would change language unilaterally, so when a new pronunciation fashion took off, everyone changed everything that fashion applied to. The thing is, when a new fashion to change þ to s happened, Míriel Þerindë, the Ñoldor queen, was getting her name pronounced as Serindë and was offended by it, saying it *wasn't* her name! Even after her landmark death, her son Fëanor (very much a mother's boy) persisted in using the þ sound, as did his sons, and I presume his loyalist followers. If you know the background of "Shibboleth", it is from a Biblically-adjacent story where it is used as a test of whether someone was hebrew or not, because the other languages around them struggled with the sh's and th's. So I am guessing Tolkien's intent was that Fëanorian Quenya had this quirk that set it apart because their prince was honouring the memory of his beloved mother.

[@gabenugget114]

AND ÐO NŒT GET ME STARTED ON 8:47

[@telzeyamberdon3474]

Correction on the Shibboleth reference: in the story (the book of Judges) the shibboleth incident involves the tribes of Israel quarreling with each other. Several of the Israelite tribes (Reuben, Gad, etc.) were living in Gilead. The Ephraimites, who were the descendants of Joseph's son named Ephraim, had a petty beef with the Gildeadites. They went to Gilead to pick a fight. The Gildeadites finished it. Then they sussed out the Ephraimites in their midst by demanding they speak the word "shibboleth" when captured. The Ephraimites pronounced it "sibboleth," and were apparently the only Israelite tribe who did. I haven't read the Silmarillion yet, but your description suggests all of the characters in this scenario are elves. But one group purposely set themselves apart from their fellow elves. The comparison tracks.

[@meganofsherwood3665]

IIRC, the story in the book of Judges is also the origin of the "Shibboleth authentication" message you sometimes see displayed on a webpage after logging in to your account, while waiting for the page to load

[@occamraiser]

Christopher Tolkien, not the real one so it doesn't count.

[@bjjt-nu9dx]

Tolkien pronounced Mordor "Morðor."

[@dpal88331]

How the hell have I only just found your channel. Holy shit. Fantastic content.

[@Munkfish-TV]

I'm from Hamilton in Scotland and Hamilton originally evolved from the ancient Barony of Cadzow, except Cadzow was actually CadȜow but due to the typesetting of the printing press the Ȝ was replaced with a lower case Z. Very much enjoying your videos, fascinating stuff! 👍

[@Gdlul]

How do you get that3

[@actionsub]

In the Cyrillic alphabet, that "z" sound is represented by "3". To prevent confusion, the Russians write their three's with a flat top, ironically the way a fancy "z" with a tail looks in English lettering...

[@Jazzythehazzy]

It looks like cursive

[@tribaounidadedonstania]

@@actionsub З3 which one is the russian letter? hint: its either 1 or 2

[@tookiecar1]

@@tribaounidadedonstania1

[@surgeseraphim7741]

I love how Ash and Ethel make an ah and oi sound respectively, but both of them now are used in words to make the ee sound

[@l.p.7585]

Yeah it's odd like that isn't it. I think people somehow 'know'that informal English has very much middled pit the vowels, so when they see old timey words they overpronounce them in the way they imagine. Aether being pronounced 'eeþer' in fantasy and scifi has maybe contributed to that?

[@Excommunicated-ei1ep]

That’s probably because the Greek Pronunciation of the æ and œ Letters, is different from the Anglo-Saxon Pronunciation?

[@HimitsuYami]

It's also interesting how Æ in words like say, Æther is (probably incorrectly, but as language evolves, is it truly incorrect?) sometimes pronounced like ay-thur ay like hey or hay

[@Excommunicated-ei1ep]

@@HimitsuYami But its not “Hey and Hay”, it’s “Ha” and “He”, that’s why the Æ/æ Letter is often pronounced in the Latin or Greek way, instead of the Old English way . . .

[@jamsistired]

Also there are just cultural shifts like nuclear to nuculer, things change a bit and we see that all the time, it’s not wrong it’s different. You can say it like eether and be correct because that’s just the way things happen. Language is a constantly changing thing

[@Angiepangie101]

Daði isn’t pronounced as daddy? I feel lied to and misguided.

[@countryland69]

dathi

[@SrihariRenganathan]

How did you paste that letter? Ia can only accessx đ

[@countryland69]

@@SrihariRenganathan Get an england keyboard

[@jojo.s_bekaar_adventures]

@@SrihariRenganathan đ ð

[@thomaschoat9632]

Try making a vocalized "dth" through your nose: you will probably be close

[@ChrisHudsonLLB]

Enjoyed this one Rob, and very pleased to finally have an explanation re pronounciation of "Menzies". Bring 'em all back!

[@notmymainchannel_.]

I grew up in mainland, China and started studying English when I was just able to speak my own native language, which is Mandarin. This video reminded me the way my teachers used to teach English pronunciations when I was in primary school. They would essentially use these letters from Old English as denotation of the pronunciation of a word. I had no idea where these letters came from until I moved to Canada haha. But they did help me understand the pronunciation system in English a lot, especially for words where the same vowels would have inconsistent pronunciations across different words that use these vowels lol.

[@Laeiryn]

It was probably the international phonetic alphabet, or IPA

[@achtube85]

This was entertaining and very well explained! I've been studying English for years and never knew these letters had existed at some point. Thanks!

[@joshuakurtenbach1972]

Eng is very intuitive, you can tell it was invented by squishing the letters together (n + g = ŋ). It is so intuitive that I found myself using it in university when taking notes without knowing it already existed. I also would incorporate an i into it for -ing by dotting it.

[@alvexok5523]

That's interesting about Eng. Also, with what he said in the video about "Ye old" actually supposing to be "'The' old", that probably means that "Here ye, here ye" might be "Here the, here the". And that almost makes more sense because that could be translation for "Here is the speaker" or "Here I speak", since basically "Here ye, here ye" was said to get everyone's attention so he could speak

[@joshuakurtenbach1972]

@@alvexok5523 I don't quite agree. "Hear ye" is a proper English. It is an imperative calling those present to listen.

[@alvexok5523]

@@joshuakurtenbach1972 Oh. I'm sure you're correct. I wasn't fully sure on what I was saying, it was an idea I had. And also, my mistake, I had a little bit of homonym confusion, you're right, it was "hear ye", not "here ye"

[@joshuakurtenbach1972]

@@alvexok5523 I didn't even catch your mistake, the ol' brain corrected it for me haha

[@mrigankadesarkar371]

Oddly enough, i also use the EXACT SAME shorthand.

[@debbygonzalez892]

I love your posts. Very witty and extremely interesting. Keep up the good work

[@user-rd1tn8qm7t]

Oh my god I audibly gasped when I realized "that" and "thanks" make different "th" sounds

[@dmitrivasilyevich8859]

oh SHIT

[@thanhtruong946]

How tf you didn't know it?

[@anna_9195]

OMGG SAME I NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT-

[@PKNproductions]

​@@thanhtruong946 its just something most native speakers don't think about, because of how writing shapes our perception of language. Also the fact that there are pretty much no words in English where we carefully distinguish between the sounds (eg. þat and ðat aren't outright different words, just a natural sounding pronunciation and a weird one) means that it ends up being left to an unconscious accent quirk more than an overt difference in words. Another example of this kind of "native obviousness" is how most of us don't notice that the P in "poke" and the P in "spoke" are different. There's a puff of air when you say poke but not when you say spoke. Try saying "as poke" and then say "a spoke" and notice how the P sounds different in each even though we expect that these should sound identical.

[@madide3978]

i think “that” you put your tongue on your top teeth only. in thanks, you but it between top and bottom teeth making it clearer and stretched out... or im just wrong idk this is my guess

[@ThorsteinnK]

This is why I usually have to write my name as Thorsteinn when writing with foreign people, but as an Icelander, where Thorn is alive and well, my name is spelled Þorsteinn :) Same goes for Ð/ð which is heavily used here as well. Even sometimes both in the same word. Það var nefnilega það!

[@brayanabbelinogonzalezurbina]

And when do you must use "Ɖ" i guess that do you use the digraphy Dh sometimes or no, I have seen that digraphy for this i guess. excusme my english, my lenguage is spanish.

[@ThorsteinnK]

@@brayanabbelinogonzalezurbina We never use Dh in stead of Ð :) Never heard about that. We use Ð in all words spelled with that letter. The only times we write D in stead of it is in e.g. website URLs where you basically have to skip any special characters

[@alephomega955]

@@ThorsteinnK Dh is the official way to represent the voiced th sound, but it makes more sense to represent it just as th since English does it.

[@BruceYoung1]

Question: Are there clear rules for when to use Þ (thorn) and when to use ð (eth) in Icelandic? I've wondered if Þ is used for the unvoiced sound (like the "th" in "thorn" in English) and ð for the voiced sound (like the "th" in "this").

[@adolforodolfo6929]

Excellent - some of these I knew already, but I've learned things and I'm very glad that I invested 11 minutes in watching your video. I shall now check out some of your others. Thanks very much.

[@JoseAngelFlores]

This is very illustrating. This stuff you find hard to find or even to ask about. I have come across some of these "dead letters" of old, and I couldn´t tell what they were many times. Thanks!

[@Pedram_k]

Amazing. As a non-native English speaker this change my whole perspective about English language and also answered a lot of questions. Thank you

[@Thoughtspresso]

This is really interesting and helps explain a ton about why sounds GH like in night are pronounced the way they are, or why TH can be soft or hard. Especially for a bilingual like me whose vernacular comes from the Austronesian family of languages. Interestingly enough, the modern Filipino alphabet has Ng as a single letter, and instead of calling it "Eng" we call it "Nang". The Ng along with Ñ added to the current English alphabet make ours 28 letters instead of 26.

[@domi9730]

Okay but for real this guy's channel is so underrated this was so helpful and fun to watch-

[@tomorrowtodaysociety2028]

I am loving thorn and eth. I would gladly welcome half of them back. Keep up the good work!

[@quententhomas7583]

What a fantastic video! I learned so much! I’ve recently been starting to teach my 6 year old how to spell, and I so often end up almost apologising for the baffling nature of english spelling and pronunciation. Amazed that there some old letters behind some of the strange spellings such as ‘gh’ and ‘oe’.

[@sharonjuniorchess]

Good luck. I try to explain how our words are a mish mash of French Germanic and other older languages like Latin & Anglo Saxon which reflect the ebb and flow of past invasions and influence. Foreigners struggle to understand all these variations when their native language actually sounds like it is written. If you are lucky some dictionaries show the phonetic spelling and this useful to understand the pronunciation of a word that one might be unfamiliar with. I showed a young 7 year old and he was delighted to decode the consonants by looking up the phonetic sounds at the back of the dictionary to work out how to pronounce a word. It also answer the question why we have 26 letters but 44 sounds in the English language. Why do words with the letter c end up with two different sounds? cat vs cite?

[@locomotivetrainstation6053]

Gh is stupid

[@tadroid3858]

I couldn't stop watching this video. It explained so many goofy spellings I've seen over the years reading history books. Thanks!!

[@Wazkaty]

Thank you for teaching us the English language's history! It is fascinating, especially about the Old English! It helps me a lot to learn English!

[@ihh2921]

Æ is still commonly used in Norway, we have two written languages (technically three) and it's quite often used in the second of them. Even lore is it used when we write dialects informally to one another over text as it's one of many ways of writing "I"

[@TorbenS]

We also use Æ in Danish 🙂

[@MLL17.15]

​@@TorbenSEn English/Español Cómo una Variante De la A

[@carolboteler5381]

I learned (in American English) AErcheology so long ago that I still write it that way occasionally - when I'm feeling pompous.

[@gearoiddom]

Fantastic short presentation. Thanks. That last mention of the Tironian Et might inspire me to make a similar vid myself on old Irish script. This gaelic script was in use right up to my Dad's time in school and is still visible on lots of gravestones.

[@tinyderppotato5410]

please do!

[@alanwilson175]

The long-s letter is still used in mathematics as the integral sign. The mathematical integral is a kind of continuous summation, so the long-s is a math abbreviation for an infinite summation. The corresponding discrete summation is signified in math formulas with a capital sigma.

[@mal2ksc]

That's really why the letter dropped out of common use. People got tired of being reminded they failed Calculus.

[@johnsimon4671]

Lol

[@jorriffhdhtrsegg]

I propose using eth to refer to the differential

[@knutrleer5479]

@@jorriffhdhtrsegg The symbol for the partial differential already looks a lot like the ð, but without the cross-stroke.

[@larsfinlay7325]

the roadsigns in Iceland made me feel like I was going back in time. this video makes it clear why, those are old letters :) fun stuff

[@Old52Guy]

Outstanding! I'm an amateur philologist (self-trained). Perusing old dictionaries or books I would often come across a character I had never seen before and, because they can't be searched for would always leave me wondering. This is excellent! Now if I can just get my tongue around the pronunciation of some of them it will be great. Thanks!

[@HalfEye79]

The "ŋ" should come back. It should be used as well in german. The "Æ" had a replacement in german with "Ä" alongside with "Ö" and "Ü". The "ſ" was partially dropped, because it was too similar to an "f". But it kind of remained in german. In Germany we have a ligature consistin of the "ſ" (the long s) and "ʒ" (the old z). The ligature is "ß" (called sz).

[@HippieVeganJewslim]

If the Germans can’t type it, they can write ss, ae, oe, or ue for ß, ä, ö, or ü, but when should eng be used in German?

[@HalfEye79]

@@HippieVeganJewslim For example: The word "eng" ("tight"), "mangelhaft" ("faulty"), "Richtung" ("direction"), and many more.

[@HippieVeganJewslim]

@@HalfEye79 Dankeschön, aber das ist nur ng in mangelhaft und Richtung, nicht wahr? Nu, vielleicht ist ng kein Weg zu sagen. Wieder danke!

[@HalfEye79]

@@HippieVeganJewslim Das "ng" ist noch in vielen anderen Wörtern. Nicht in einem großem Teil der Wörter, aber, meiner Meinung nach, genug um den Buchstaben zu begründen.

[@shoujahatsumetsu]

Up in the North, Norwegians have Æ, Ø, Å, Swedes have Ä, Ö, Å. Now, I'm no expert, but our Å is probably how you pronounce O, our O is like your U, and our U or Y is like your Ü. I think.

[@alexcitron5159]

Great channel! I don't know how I JUST found out about it. I love language stuff, esp. English. Keep up the good work!

[@katerbilla]

In German: "Round s" (the normal letter) was used at the end of words and syllables, "long s" at the start and mid of words (as long as it was not the end of a syllable too). That's also the reason why whe have "sharp s"=ß in German: it is, for example in the word "dass" => "daſs" the use of these rules: long s in the mid, round s at the end. Later the typesetters combined it, thus the ß. It still shall be used when using Fraktur or other scripts like that.

[@JohnSmiffer]

You can see the pointlessness of these things when you have to explain it to someone don't you. "An s in the beginning is different than ss at the end." Why oh why! My theory is that Germans aren't as rebellious as the English to shake off all the silliness. Like the ridiculous verb placements. (Let's just throw all the verbs at the end and out of order shall we?)

[@allesindwillkommen]

@@JohnSmiffer After the spelling reform, the letter "ß" has a very clear purpose in German, though. It helps differentiate words with a short vowel and with a long vowel. For example, the German words "Masse" and "Maße" are pronounced differently and mean different things.

[@JohnSmiffer]

​@@allesindwillkommen It's a very narrow purpose though isn't it. I would wager that context would provide 99.99% of the clues of what meaning you were going for in terms of actual conversation.

[@allesindwillkommen]

@@JohnSmiffer By that logic, both English and German can get rid of the letter "x", as well, since every word that has an "x" in it can be rewritten with other letters. So go ahead and start a petition to ban the letter "x".

[@JohnSmiffer]

​@@allesindwillkommen I think USA has too many Meksikans to let that one pass. I actually don't mind the ß. it even looks interesting. I lived in Germany for a while, my main language complaint was with the general grammar. Verbs at ends, different endings for adjectives depending on gender/case. All seemed pointless to me.

[@Obsidian_Iris_]

I’ve watched about 5 videos on letters dropped from the English language and this is the best one in every way but primarily because of your obvious research. Two or 3 of the others explained the reasons for why some letters were dropped with an answer that seems the most obvious and/or logical to someone from this century, but one bugged me: the letter that looks like a 3, YOGH, was dropped from WORDS because people kept mistaking it for the *number* 3 (really?). Your answers for the same letters were completely different, but you explained exactly why and you showed documentation! (YOGH was replaced because it looked too much like a capital Z in some typesets.) I greatly appreciate thorough research and proof when possible. My more personal appreciation for this video is for clearly pronouncing the difference between a soft and hard "th". Every video I watched did it but only yours didn’t sound (to me, anyway) like the two were exactly the same. I liked the previous video of yours on the origin of the uppercase letters of the English alphabet so much that I clicked on this one. I liked this one so much that I subscribed.

[@RobWords]

Thanks for watching and welcome aboard!

[@vahonenko]

> the letter that looks like a 3, YOGH, was dropped from WORDS because people kept mistaking it for the number 3 (really?) Well, Cyriliic-script languages have "З" letter which usually stands for "z" sound. And also we have "Ч" letter ("ch" sound like in "chess") somewhat resembling 4, and we have small-case "б" which is look like "6" (Б is a letter for the "b" sound like in "baby") and I never heard about someone misinterpret them as numbers. Maybe only for fun or as a joke. And not to mention that "O" (both Latin and Cyrillic) look like a zero. Well, there was a tram No. 3030 in my city, and I once I heard a kid calling it "Zozo". "Mommy, look, this tram's name is Zozo".

[@AJCrowley4004]

The 'yogh' vs. 3 battle seems implausible because how often do you have a digit inside a word? On the other hand the letter z was very simillar to 'yogh' and a letter is naturally present in words. It raises one question for me: When was the first time a digit sneaked from counting world into a wording world like U2, dinner 4-2 etc.?

[@philambrez]

You forget to mention that the long S "ʃ " was mainly used because quill and ink, or printing presses of the time would often turn two small "ss" into a blob of ink. So, the letter was necessary, as it separated the ink as "sʃ". As pens and printing presʃes evolved, its usage was no longer needed, and was eliminated simply because it was no longer necesʃary. By the way it was only used as a lower-case, and only if it followed another "s". And, it often had no crosʃ through it like and "f", so the distinction was easy enough to understand.

[@19Szabolcs91]

Oh wait, so that's also why Germans have that alternate character repsesenting "ss" that looks like a beta?

[@CrazyMazapan]

@@19Szabolcs91 Right. It's a combination of both.

[@lennynunez7015]

How do you get the long s?

[@tookiecar1]

Presses* necessary* cross*

[@Oturan20]

@@tookiecar1 They're spelt right Just with a long s.

[@mac_tire_aonair]

In Irish, the Tironian et (7) is also used in the Irish equivalent of etc. - 7rl. - short for "agus ar uile", loosely translated "and all/the rest". Love the vids Rob - so interesting!!!

[@WatermelonQeed]

You just used seven😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@Gdlul]

Đð

[@Gdlul]

Tironian et letter is to be like this (⁊)

[@DavidSmith-vr1nb]

@@Gdlul That's so hard to access that most modern Irish typists just use "7". Of course this may be a hangover from typewriters that simply didn't have the symbol at all.

[@DavidSmith-vr1nb]

@@WatermelonQeed Nearly impossible to do otherwise.

[@rainpath1]

I love your videos! They are so fascinating! I am an English major and English teacher and didn't even know all of the facts in your videos. A lot of it is stuff I kind of knew from reading but never really thought about before, such as thou/thee/thy, French cognates and Old English spelling.

[@grantgallagher9236]

Just found your channel. Love it! I've always been fascinated by English and your channel is priceless

[@ZOMBIEHEADSHOTKILLER]

THANK YOU! thank you for covering the whole "thorn is not a y, its not ye old pub" thing..... im always telling this to people, but no one ever cares.

[@donperegrine922]

😂 if no one cares...maybe stop telling them

[@claudiasolomon1123]

I am an amateur linguist, I'm grateful for your channel❤👏

[@bigaspidistra]

The ghost of ash lives on in some spelling variations; grey in Old English was spelt with ash but as this died out neither "a" nor "e" became completely set in its place.

[@RobWords]

Love this. Great contribution as always.

[@heavenlydusk]

Æ

[@stephencrompton4352]

British: It's spelled 'grey'! Americans: No! It's spelled 'gray'! Intellectuals: *græy*

[@Hurlebatte]

The Middle English Compendium says the West Saxon dialect of Old English had grǣg and Anglian had grēg. I think this could explain the two spellings.

[@bigaspidistra]

@@Hurlebatte yes that matches Old Frisian as well. There is an interesting almost full spread variation of the vowel in this word from -au to -i across cognates and the spelling in Middle English was especially fluid. Grizzly is another one that made it into Modern English albeit somewhat specialised.

[@thormusique]

Wonderful video! I would love to see 'thorn', 'eth', and 'eng' make a comeback. And if the Gods of Language were feeling especially generous, perhaps 'long s' for good measure (I've always though it elegant looking). Cheers!

[@RalphMouline]

1:18 My furniture started flying

[@chri-k]

The full one is linked in the description.

[@deniaridley]

lol

[@ianallan8005]

When I was a wee boy, I was taught to read with an alphabet called ITA. It had letters that were paired together. For example “shoe” would be spelled with only two letters, an Sh joined together, and a curvy W (like a number three lying on its back) pronounced oo. A pretty shoddy experience all told. I’d learned to read when I was 5 at one school, then moved to another that uses ITA, then moved to big school where I had to learn to read again

[@lassebrynildsen7814]

FYI: We still have the oe and ae in norwegian. Oe = Ø pronounsed as the i in sir. Ae = Æ, pronounced as the a in ash.

[@TheSimon253]

Same with Swedish although Ö and Ä looks better imo

[@gunnarbechTV]

By the way, Danish also has both Æ and Ø.

[@markrossow6303]

just writing a check for tickets to Trollhsugen 50th Anniversary Lunch, a Stampede Pass lodge owned by Seattle Sons of Norway -- (the wife and I are involved with XC "Ski for Light" there)

[@sarahgilbert8036]

And Å - and Iceland uses þ and đ

[@Maksym_Ch]

@@sarahgilbert8036 ð*

[@toni5431]

This takes me right back to my early childhood in the early 70's when they brought the teaching method of ITA into classrooms. Mum taught me the standard alphabet prior to going to school at age 5 and I could both read and write it. Schools had introduced the ITA method of alphabet so I had to unlearn and then re-learn how to read and write the "new" alphabet from the beginning. I remember struggling with the new letters a lot which included Ethel and Ash and maybe others. After a short period of time ITA was dropped and teaching reverted back to standard alphabet. I then had to relearn a 3rd time back to standard.

[@sazji]

The phrase “sometimes in the same document” pops up a couple of times here. The thorn and eth could both be used “in the same document” because they stood for two different sounds, the “hard” (voiceless) th and the “soft” (voiced) th. The word “the” could have different pronunciations; in Chaucerian times it was almost always pronounced hard, but the softening happened in different phonological environments, not across the board and all at once. We hear different local pronunciations of it even today: hard and soft th, but also “d” and even “t” (reduced in Yorkshire speech - “goin to t’ pub”). That’s a relic of the hard pronunciation, which also survives in Lancashire and other places in the word “tha / thi” (thou / thee) among older people. As for the “long s,” it would always be used along with the familiar “s” in the same document because there was a rule for its use - the modern “s” was a final s, with the long s being used elsewhere. (The same is true with the letter sigma in Greek even today, with “σ” used initially and within a word, and “ς” only at the end of words. So “sas” is “σας”.) Also some of these letters weren’t abandoned by European printers simply because they looked like other letters; it was because they didn’t have those letters at hand, so they used what they did have. Nobody in England would have been confused by the handwritten thorn or wynn or yogh, only by printed material where actual other letters had been substituted.

[@goodmaro]

The best example of such variation in "t" I can think of is in "mountain", where for some it's a T like T blowing it out with the tongue by the roots of the incisors, and for others just a glottal stop. almost like belching it thru the nose. And yet nobody (?) pronounces the very similar word "maintain" with a glottal stop. But add a little to either word, like "mountainous" and "maintenance", and the contrast between the T sounds exchanges between the words! It seems to be about how easy it is to put the desired stress on the following syllable.

[@iangerahty3422]

If I recall accurately the printers were also responsible for the ff being used as a substitute for F because they quickly ran out of the capital form. No doubt there are opinions that might debunk that.

[@kabouktli]

Actually the long s was final of syllables, not of words like the Greek ς.

[@jasonayres]

I learned the Icelandic language many years ago. Very interesting to see the similarities in Ye Olde.. I mean, The old English language. Thanks!

[@robertklose2140]

Gott að þú sért farinn að læra íslensku! Hún er fjandi erfitt tungumál.

[@jasonayres]

@@robertklose2140 I said, "..many years ago." 😄

[@italixgaming915]

Not very surprising, knowing that England used to be under Viking domination like Iceland.

[@andrehaugvaldstad]

@@italixgaming915 Ehhh not precisely. Iceland was a barren island that was colonized. England had to be ... "persuaded" first

[@alanfarr9624]

1980s, spent a long time in Denmark. The "Þ" sounding like "th" has transmogrified to 'd' in Danish. Hence "bad" (dk), meaning "bath"(en), pron. "bath"(dk), slightly softer "th" sound. And there are loads of words like that.

[@abaddon1371]

My last name is Madsen (from Denmark btw.) and english people pronounce it with a hard d, so it sounds like Mattsen, while in danish, it is a silent d but prolongs the s sound. In english it would be closer to Massen to get it correctly. It gets even weirder on the island I live on, as we have a habit of cutting the d's if at the end of a word and if short enough, like "ged" (meaning goat) the "e" disappers as well when we cut the d sound and it transforms into one word of "g" for goat lol! :D But yeah, you are correct that we have a lot of soft or silent d's in our language. Also bad has a couple of different meanings. Bath (as mentioned) past sentence of praying and past sentence of asking for something. Which it is, depends on how long or short the 'ad' sound is or the context of course. Jeg tog et bad - "I took a bath" Jeg bad om saltet - "I asked for the salt" Jeg bad om bedre vejr - "I (asked) prayed for better weather" Han bad til gud - "he prayed to god" Bad is also (rarely) used as a short form for bathroom (Badeværelse in danish) English people usually also gets a good laugh when they see the city sign for the danish city "Middelfart" which in danish is pronounced with soft d's, the english however... Or back in my youth when lifts/elevators had a small warning sign light up when using it, saying "I fart" which in danish means "In motion" :)

[@griksrik1420]

You can blame the Hansa traders for that, and also a lack of education or perhaps arrogance of the native Norse, that didn't want to or didn't know the correct spellings of their words, so they just spelt it how ever they pronounced, which was again heavily influenced by German Hansa traders (hence 40% of Danish words aren't even Norse) This was for some reason avoided by Icelanders and some mountain boys in Sweden though barely for them, for Icelanders they always seemed to had healthy scholars, a lot of Sagas from there despite their low population, thus their language is much better kept than their sister ones. As for aforesaid Danish, too much beer influencing it, always mumbling about and dropping letters, barely a real language. That word's actual spelling by the way is Farth (Farþ) related to english Fare and Further. hence in Swedish I think it means race. Sorry if you took anything I said personally, I do not mean it as such.

[@abaddon1371]

@@griksrik1420 Personally? Naaah, our language is a mess sometimes. Gets a good laugh out of foreigners though and a good laugh at them when trying to speak danish :D

[@kogindogo7233]

Selvfølgelig. Old dansk og old tysk blandet med med keltisk blev til engelsk som vi kender det

[@josephstevano5905]

Another fascinating (and entertaining!) video. Thank you!

[@rainer_]

Þy videos are þe greateſt! Ƿe ſhould keep all þe letters! Greetiŋs from Vienna

[@RobWords]

Herzlichen Dank aus Berlin! Þe more letterſ, þe merrier!

[@Perririri]

#Bécs (in Hungarian)

[@locomotivetrainstation6053]

I don't like wynn, W is better

[@cindypurina2327]

Personally I'm always a fan of bringing back thorn and Eng. I can also see the long S as a suitable replacement for Ts where the T is silent since it's meant to denote a different s sound than we'd usually use.

[@hakonsoreide]

Most words with silent t are either st or ft, which means you could double the s and f and drop the t, which would make more sense than introducing a whole new letter. I lissen to music very offen. Yes, I know, in the case of often, some people do pronounce the t, which is another problem with any spelling reforms as they might marginalise current variants of English that pronounce words differently and where "silent" letters sometimes are not silent or vice versa.

[@intergalactic92]

@@hakonsoreide I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who doesn’t pronounce the t in often. But that’s evolution of language for you.

[@hakonsoreide]

@@intergalactic92 Statistically, most don't pronounce it, and if the spelling had changed to "offen" 200 years ago, no one would, but one of the quirks of English is that silent letters pronounced by some speakers can get reintroduced into the spoken language again. Or introduced for the first time in the case of the b in plumber or l in salmon, for instance, which I know is pronounced by many African speakers of English, even though the silent letters were artificially introduced a few hundred years ago, to show the Latin origin of the words, not because it was ever before pronounced or spelt that way as long as English was English.

[@intergalactic92]

@@hakonsoreide lots of people discover words by reading them and there isn’t a handy pronunciation guide in most books to explain how you should be saying it. This is why some Americans say route and gauge differently to brits. Someone made an assumption based on how it’s written, having never heard it said before.

[@hakonsoreide]

@@intergalactic92 Indeed. People learn many words from reading, and someone learning from reading may also teach someone who doesn't. After decades of being interested in languages, I have realised it's all good, as arguably the only true measure of correctness in language is whether you successfully communicate what you intended or not. So-called "rules" of a language are just statistics-based norms, or occasionally formal style guides, that can potentially aid successful communication, but which leave a lot of flexibility for deviation without miscommunication. Grammar is a simplified model of how language is used, not a set of rules one has to follow.

[@mud213]

It's so sad that eth turned into "th" instead of "dh". It even looked like a "d". While reading, it'd be a lot easier to get through: "Then, three thinking thimbles were thoroughly thrown through their thirty thin things."

[@GDosiris314]

I am currently making a language, and it brings back most of these lost letters.

[@PalKrammer]

The elongated “s” could appear initially or medially, but in final position there was only “s”.

[@RobWords]

Yes!

[@naginiriddle7091]

During that section, it reminded me of the Greek letter sigma. There are three ways to write it: capital (Σ), lowercase (σ), and at the end of the word (ς). Frankly, I am all for bringing that back, since the long s looks so pretty to me, and I since I am already comfortable with the Greek sigma, I wouldn't struggle with there being a long s.

[@scottmiller2591]

Correct. It was a very rare document that didn't have any final "s"s, so documents nearly always used both "ſ" and "s."

[@Anson_AKB]

*in germany, we also had the two different "s"* (the "normal s" and the "Schluß-s", "end/final s"), and combining the "long s" with a "s" or "z" to one single ligature, we got our "ß" (called sz) which may be written with two ss if no ß is available (and always when swiss use words with ß). for details, search for "scharfes s" in german wikipedia, "sharp s" in english wikipedia, or "ß" in either. until 2017 we officially only had the seven extra letters äÄöÖüÜ and the lowercase ß (since there are no words starting with ß), but to be able to fill out forms in "uppercase only" we finally now got an uppercase version too :-) until then, people needed to fill out forms incorrectly, either changing ß (eg in their surnames) to SS or using lowercase ß. unicode (uppercase since 2008): U+00DF and U+1E9E "latin small/capital letter sharp s"

[@29trent]

I have a very beautiful letter written by my recently-widowed great-grandfather in 1890 proposing marriage to the widow of a recently-deceased friend of his. He had an elegant Spencerian hand and used the long s/short s ligature in all words with interior double esses -- Miſsouri, Tenneſsee, and (best of all) Miſsiſsippi. He was born in 1846 and would've learned to write in Arkansas in the 1850s.

[@splashykoy11]

1:10 Dude looks like he’s being held at gunpoint

[@country.germany]

Yeah

[@country.germany]

I thought it was just me who thought that

[@jds1275]

I would love to see most of those make a comeback. I think every sound needs its own character. No diacritics, or letter combinations, just a symbol for each unique sound and pronunciation. It would definitely make english easier for people to learn how to read.

[@locomotivetrainstation6053]

I think TH and CH should hav its own letrz but someþiη like ST should not

[@solosunbeam]

I love your videos Rob. I would love to bring some of these back. My favourites from these lost letters are: Þ, Æ, 3, and eng.

[@teodorabrayanova7077]

Its not 3 its Ȝ

[@YaBoiRocc]

Æ is still used in 2 of the continental Scandinavian languages (Denmark and Norway) and in the insular languages (Icelandic and Faroese). It makes roughly the same sound as the "e" in the English word "Tent"

[@mlo4982]

In Icelandic Æ is actually pronounced like the words "eye" or "I", and I'm fairly certain that the same goes for Faroese. In Icelandic we actually write Faroe Islands as Færeyjar!

[@YaBoiRocc]

@@mlo4982 Interesting! Never known how to pronounce it in Icelandic before! We also call Faroe Islands Færøerne, so I can see the resemblance between Icelandic and Danish

[@mikkolukas]

Bonus info: In Sweden they use Ä for the exact same sound and purpose.

[@khole15]

Wouldnt say it resembles the "e" sound in english. It resembles the "a" sound in the word "ash" , like he said in the video.

[@YaBoiRocc]

​@@khole15 It depends. Words like Æsel, Væsen, Æske all have the E sound in Tent. Other words like Ære, Pære, Lære, Sværge have a sound closer to the A in Ash. When you pronounce the Vowel on it's own tho (like when reciting the Alphabet), it is with the first mentioned vowel sound

[@sirgalah561]

Fascinating.. I've been interested in etymology for years but my schools or university don't have courses in this... But I stumbled upon your page..

[@GB-hj3xp]

I find insects fascinating as well

[@billbauer9795]

@@GB-hj3xp I like turtles.

[@SM-yb4dy]

@@GB-hj3xp etym not ento

[@Youchubeswindon]

@@billbauer9795 I like Trains.

[@judihopewell2499]

Very good. As a calligrapher this was so interesting in reviewing ancient manuscripts…

[@willdunlop4929]

Came upon this video by complete accident. Absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much.

[@Sonicgott]

Æ is still used in languages like Danish and Norwegian, which makes sense as English shares a common ancestor with both of those languages, all of which are Proto-Germanic. Icelandic and Old English look very similar to each other.

[@MrPicky]

Æ is also used in Icelandic and Faroese

[@pettahify]

And in Swedish it's ä instead of æ.

[@takirosh]

A lot of modern english has it's base in old norse. Like the word bag came from the old norse baggi.

[@Vampirewerewolf1]

Æ is also still used in French, but only in names as far as I know. Things like Læticia.

[@derbazi257]

I just watched the first few seconds of this an I already want an extended version of the anglo-saxon runic alphabet song! Watched a bit further and i finally learned how to correctly pronounce Freyrs first name! Watched a bit further still and just remembered that in contrary to the englisch alphabet the german one has a letter that is a letter that was "created" as far as I know. The "ß" is an abbreviation of the old letter s ( ſ ) and the z ( ʒ ). The official name even reflects that because it is called sz (pronounced somewhat like s zed) If I could bring a letter back I'd choose the Ethel not because I find it particular useful but because it is used as a shorthand in mathematics to say "without restrictions on generality"...at least in german mathematics...

[@RobWords]

The eszett is beautiful - I can't believe they discussed getting rid of it. I think we should consider adopting it into English. That would be claß. I didn't know about the use of ethel in maths. Thanks for another interesting comment.

[@derbazi257]

I do agree it is kind of beautiful - It is kind of a pain when internationalising apps though, at least when one believes Tom Scott on Computerphile ^^

[@RobWords]

What do you reckon to us stealing the eszett from German? Their loß would be our gain... Here's the full Futhorc chant - kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2aoqImJaLhnaJY

[@tomkerruish2982]

That's handy! Here in America we use 'WLOG' for 'without loss of generality'.

[@derbazi257]

@@tomkerruish2982 yeah in german it is "Ohne Einschränkung" therefore the OE is just perfect

[@xXprettyxkittyXx]

This one reminds me of the time a German girl told me Americans don’t use the full alphabet and I still to this day can’t tell if she genuinely believed that or if there is actually some “secret” Anglo-Saxon letters the English have been gatekeeping. I’m starting to think it’s the latter now lol

[@MaximilianBerkmann]

Well German, French and Spanish just to name a few, use letters that don't exist in the English language so she's right.

[@xXprettyxkittyXx]

@@MaximilianBerkmann that’s not what she was talking about. She was saying Americans used less letters in the English alphabet than British people do. Like she said, we physically just do not have part of the alphabet

[@MaximilianBerkmann]

@@xXprettyxkittyXx Fair enough.

[@oahuhawaii2141]

​@@xXprettyxkittyXx: Americans use the same 26-letter alphabet as the Brits. However, when you look at enough printed text, you may find that the Brits may use foreign letters in words to suggest their root languages; consider 'æ' and 'œ'. The German girl probably looked at her alphabet, and realized that Americans don't have the ä, ö, ü, and ß letters.

[@ivar7099]

Hey man, Great job making your videos. They're both interesting and fun. Peace :)

[@CubixCola]

*Wait so you're telling me that æ is pronounced as "ash" and not "aye"?*

[@CelestiumAim]

x æ a 12 (x ash a 12

[@anna_9195]

>:0

[@madide3978]

it’s called ash but pronounced as “aye” like calling the letter G “jee “ but pronouncing it “guh”

[@myrightnut]

I thought its the letter a-

[@benj0091]

In danish ash is pronounced like the 'e' in deck and fed.

[@laartje24]

1:00 Me: Ah, like QWERTY Him: Like AlphaBeth Me: Ah, yes, that might be a better example.

[@michaelbonet9062]

I got my Masters degree in teaching years ago and in celebration tattooed a stylized version of the defunct long s on my arm. A lot of people think it’s a musical note though.

[@Laeiryn]

Do they mean an F hole?

[@machandelverlagcharlotteer8698]

The Fraktur font still knows the long s. In German we used it for an s at the end of a word, so compound words were easier to read. A Wachstube (Wach-Stube) with a long s inside is a guard room, and a Wachstube (Wachs-Tube) with a short s is a tube full of wax. Regrettably, Fraktur fonts aren't used any longer.

[@paulwilliamdixon3674]

I would like to see thorn and eth returning. This would facilitate pronunciation of words with th, distinguishing the th in THat from the TH in THank. I would also like to see the inclusion of c, s and z with a stresica (common in Slovene and other Slavic languages). The corresponding current representations are ch (as in CHurch), sh (as in SHip) and zh (like the ge in garaGE). Stresica means 'little roof' in Slovene and is pronounced stre-sit-za.

[@aspaccino]

In Greek we have letters specifically for the thorn and eth sound. We call them theta (Θ θ) and delta (Δ δ). Theta for the thorn, and delta sounds like thelta (like the th in "that"). How do you write words with the stresica? Is it like French, a little roof above the letter that indicates a different pronunciation?

[@kabouktli]

Note that English is one of the very few (if not the only) latin-written language that uses exclusively "pure" letters, without any diacriticals, except for some foreign loan words (fiancee with an acute accent as in French etc.).

[@itzcaseykc]

Always love how words developed over time and across cultures. Very interesting indeed.

[@thornanglo-saxonalphabetfr2315]

7:22 "but also because it started to become very difficult to tell the difference between a yoch and a fancy Z" Three: Am I a joke to you?

[@OliviaWerrett]

Great to hear the old usage. Please bring back thorn - I also miss as 😊