Luthier Tips du Jour Mailbag 93- Classical guitar action too high

[@IgorVasquesBarata]

You're the first luthier I found on KZbin with courage to do it! Hahaha

[@iamhated1292]

When you said "Pay attention to what you're doing, don't screw it up!" you reminded me of my dad and myself, and then you had my like and another sub =)

[@juliantaylor7663]

4:55

[@robertbdesmond]

After removing the frets and BEFORE planing the fingerboard, the first thing I would do is wipe WHITE CHAULK on the top of the FB from one end to the other. This helps monitor your progress and shows you where you are removing the wood. I can't tell you how many times I have had to do this to even high end classical guitars by famous makers! Also, before planing or sanding, I would check the relief of the fingerboard with the frets on and under concert tension. I'd write down those numbers and the current action, etc. I would also check the fingerboard relief AFTER the frets are pulled. Also check to see if the FB is flat or radiused. I would have a very clear visual of my final goal before doing anything. The goal here is to change the GEOMETRY of the top of the fingerboard! In MANY CASES, the only way to fix this problem is to remove the fingerboard entirely and start with a new thicker fingerboard and then shape it properly for correct action. This is tricky work and must be done slowly and with the utmost care. Take things very slow and check your progress with machined straight edges continually. And don't forget to deepen the fret slots as you plane and sand the fingerboard. You will be dealing in THOUSANDS OF AN INCH. You can use feeler gauges to check your relief progress. The final reshape must have a small amount of fingerboard relief towards the middle of the fingerboard. I shoot for a relief of about .004"-.007" on the bass side and LESS on the treble side, say .001"-.003". Keep in mind that when the frets go in, you may back bow the neck a few thousands (or more) of an inch, but when you string up the guitar under concert tension, that back bow will come out usually. It's a balancing act. You MUST have experience and know what you are doing here. Don't lose track of your final goal, which is to correct the high action on the guitar while maintaining a proper saddle height. This is tricky work and not for the beginner guitar maker. My final sanding before new frets is 600 grit black paper. So, I will sand from 60 or 80 grit paper all the way up to 600 grit. After the new frets are in, I will check them from one to the third and if leveling is needed, I do it only where needed. There in no reason to sand the tops of all the frets! Check them 3 at a time with a small machined straight edge. If the one in the middle is high, you will know right away, then file it down carefully and re-crown. If you have sanded the fretboard properly and installed the frets properly, very little fret filing will be needed. I finish off the fretboard after the frets are installed and finished, with 4/0 steel wool and then wipe the fretboard clean with a paper towel. Steel wool has oil in it that should be removed from the fretboard. Robbie makes this job sound relatively easy, but it's not. Also, the edges of the fingerboard usually need to be French polished after the work is completed. It's a lot of work and it extremely precise work. Don't create a new problem by doing this work improperly. And you may have to accept something short of perfection. Because often times the problem is too great to overcome. There are ZILLIONS of Spanish guitars with the wrong geometry! And still to this day, many classical guitar makers are building in way too much neck angle.

[@OBrienGuitars]

Right you are! Don't try this at home boys and girls.

[@mickkennedy1344]

1:36 -- Robert, that's the exact problem I had with my 40 year old Yamaha FG-335 steel string acoustic, I used a small-diameter rat-tail file to cut a little curved depression in the bridge below each the G, B and E strings, the saddle at the A and low E strings is almost flush with the bridge - this solution worked perfectly

[@MemoriesRR]

Amazing work. Thank you for the video, not that I’ll be doing this work but I know it’s an option if I need it.

[@JuanHoya]

great fretboard job, thanks for sharing

[@dartme18]

6:19 "After fretwork, this guitar is ready for strings" but what about the nut!? The solution to this high action was to reduce the nut height. Of course, to do that, you have to lower the frets which is what this video is about. I came to this video to see how you went about lowering the nut, but you skipped that part! Excellent video. Thank you for sharing.

[@OBrienGuitars]

I cover nuts in other videos I have done. What I wanted to address here was action at the 12th fret and that is adjusted on the saddle end of the equation. Glad you enjoyed the video.

[@scott6588]

Right? I caught that too. Imagine following exactly and wondering why youre still just as far out after everything. Have to sand the bottom of that nut.

[@thedude6621]

Man that is a awesome amount of brain candy thanks for the knowledge

[@OBrienGuitars]

Glad you you enjoyed it and thanks for watching.

[@madgeniusmusic]

Great video, thanks Robbie. I especially appreciate the classical action height tip. One other source I heard said 2.75mm for all strings at the 12th, now I have options to explore when it comes time to fettle my classical. Thanks again.

[@TheBinaryWolf]

I respectfully disagree with this option as the neck may tend bow at the 4th fret, being thinner there after the taper. I think for long term resolution, remove the back and the brace under the 17th fret, shave the bravce convex and refit. The lift will correct the neck angle and remain stable. Just my opinion.

[@OBrienGuitars]

There are a couple of things I consider when doing a repair. First: do as little harm as possible. Solve the problem in the least invasive manner possible. Second: what does the client want and what is he willing to pay? Sometimes I would even do something differently but the client is not willing to pay for that. I used both of those criteria in this case and both the guitar and the owner are happy. Your suggestion sounds like it might have also worked but would have been considerably more work and would have increased the pucker factor as well.

[@TheBinaryWolf]

@@OBrienGuitars I think you make some very good points. I believe it can be frustrating at times, such as when the client brings in a concert standard instrument and insists on a quick fix.

[@humansnotai4912]

@@TheBinaryWolf What a nice conversation between you too. Very civilised and respectful. Shows how grown ups should act in this age of childish behaviour on the internet. Namaste x

[@TheBinaryWolf]

@@OBrienGuitars Yes, a lot of people want something for next to nothing. I think most folks do not realize the amount of work, skill and time that goes into even making a nut with precision.

[@tainoworks]

Robert... You are awesome and one of my most watch youtube channel. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise. I have learned a lot from your videos.

[@OBrienGuitars]

Thank you, I am glad you are enjoying my videos.

[@jonahguitarguy]

Hi Robbie, do you use the same two to one ratio as far as wood removal at the nut end? It's the same length from the the 12th fret in both directions.

[@OBrienGuitars]

yes, you are correct.

[@51MontyPython]

Dane NIchols Good question, and just gave me a thought -- if you know how much the action needs to come down at the 12th fret, then you can determine by a multiple of 2 (as you said) how much needs to be shaved off at the nut end, and if you already know that going in, I suppose you could either mark or even cut a notch in the end of the wood so you know when you're done shaving it, at least at that end. Then it's just a matter of making it straight all the way down to the other end.

[@caitlynjenner7207]

so then its the nut rhat will then need adjusted?

[@OBrienGuitars]

Not sure I understand your question.

[@IhabIAmer]

Very informative, many thanks for that...all crystal clear. One little issue: where can I purchase that electronic gauge you used at the beginning?

[@51MontyPython]

I'll bet Stew Mac probably has one.

[@bradstock]

Any thoughts on the “steam neck reset“ method that John Miner posted on KZbin?

[@OBrienGuitars]

This guitar has a Spanish heel. Not sure how John would do it I found this method got me the desired results.

[@jimtessin4130]

Excellent!!!! Thanks!!!

[@kbgws]

I really appreciate all your videos, but... I am not sure I am understanding how cutting the fret board angle will change the sting level without making the nut lower (by sanding or cutting the nut slot deeper) or adjusting the relief of the neck itself. Also, what about intonation?

[@OBrienGuitars]

Changing the angle of the fretboard allows me to have room at the saddle to adjust the action of the strings at the 12th fret. Most likely you will also need to adjust the nut or even make a new one.

[@UrquidiGuitars]

3.5 and 2.5 mm from top of the fret to bottom of strings?

[@OBrienGuitars]

yes.

[@UrquidiGuitars]

Thank you, Mr. O'Brien.

[@GuitarNTabs]

Thanks for the video, Robert! Very much appreciated 😊 By the way, I really like the new "intro trailer" - looks great! It's great to see the attention to detail, and the way you demonstrate, in order to make the viewers understand! I enjoyed this - let's see more like this in the future! Have a great day. Cheers.

[@DougHinVA]

Classical guitars frequently have a wooden slot for the saddle to fit in. But if the saddle is already lowered, then you must remove material from the TOP of the saddle slot but not too much. How much wooden slot (depth) is actually needed to hold the saddle securely?

[@OBrienGuitars]

That depends on the string angle. I try and put the saddle into the bridge at least 3 to 4mm.

[@mpeltz1534]

Robert I recently purchased a Córdoba Orchestra Fusion guitar. I have been playing regular classical guitar by Córdoba for a long time but decided to give this on a try. It has a 16” radius 1 7/8” width neck so a little different than a standard classical neck. I’m having difficulty getting it set up correctly. I can’t do it myself so I’m at the mercy of my local guitar people. I’m hoping to take it to a local guitar builder that I know works on necks. He does mostly steel string and electric but says he can fix it. I like my action low and I frequently use a capo. The first two set ups lowered the action but I had too much buzzing and worse some “thudding” strings. I use normal strings but put high tension on to see if it would help. It did to a degree but still to difficult to play for my taste. Someone suggested the frets may not be level? I have a Córdoba C7-CE that is set up perfectly and feels great to play with no issues. Am I expecting too much from this new guitar. I know it’s not high end $$ but for me it is a great instrument. Any thoughts. Great videos. I don’t have that skill but fun to watch. Thanks for you time.

[@OBrienGuitars]

It is hard for me to diagnose the problem without seeing the guitar. Sometimes when lowering the action you start to defy the laws of physics and can only go so far before buzzing occurs. Maybe you passed the point of no return for what this particular guitar will accept.

[@mpeltz1534]

Could be the case! I may put normal tension strings on again and see if it is any better. Thanks for talking the time to respond? I really appreciate that. Stay healthy!

[@jamesfink9658]

I inherited a Cordoba Solista CD and took it to my guitar tech for a tune up, who does excellent work on my electric guitars and Taylor steel string acoustics. He said everything out there about a 3-4 mm range of string height on a classical guitar at the E strings on the 12th fret is nonsense, and it should be more like 1.5-2 mm. Something about the higher height is because of underbow and with a quality guitar like I have he can easily make it 1.5-2 mm with no buzzing. I am new to nylon string guitar playing and his advice seems to contradict everything out there, but like I said, he has never failed me when it comes to my other guitars. Any thoughts about what he is telling me?

[@OBrienGuitars]

Your tech may be good at electric guitars but he is misguided about that low of an action on a nylon string guitar.

[@scott6588]

This was awesome!! You forgot to mention that you'll need to sand the nut down though.

[@Rowlandph]

HI, What IS the ideal height of the 6th string and 1st string...on a classical guitar a the 12th fret? Thanks!..

[@OBrienGuitars]

I use 3.5mm and 2.5mm

[@Rowlandph]

@@OBrienGuitars Thank you!!..

[@ranman58635]

Good video . For me, I know the neck is bowed a little. I will take your advice. I think mine needs what you just did but what's the cost of such a thing? My 300 dollar takamine just needs love but it isn't worth more than that... I'd say the higher high E would be ok with me since my frets are still in decent condition. Would be cool to have some medium jumbo in there.

[@mwj5368]

Hi Pararanman58635! Now one month later, what ended up happening with your Takamine? I have a Takamine No. 10 I bought used 1 1/2 yrs ago that I feel the action is too high at the 12th fret. What model of Takamine do you have? Do you think the No. 10 is a very good model compared to the other Takamine models? Mine sounds very beautiful, but I wonder how it might compare to other Takamine nylon string guitars. When I for the first time changed the original strings I realized all the original new looking strings that sounded dead must also be 34 years old! So my 34 yr old guitar had hardly ever been played! Mine has a cedar top, east Indian rosewood back and sides, ebony bridge and fingerboard, mahogany neck, and I think a bone saddle and nut. I like to use open tunings such as open C, or in my case, CGCEGC, so my strings run a greater chance of buzzing. I had the all too common nylon string guitar 3rd or G string problem of sounding dead-like. To avoid buzzing the best I could, I use high tension high carbon Savarez 540J Alliance HT strings and for the 3rd string I recently tried a wound Hannabach in the blue envelope. I don't know the exact number or name, but highly recommend the Hannabach as a 3rd string if you have that problem.

[@ranman58635]

@@mwj5368 I just moved the bridge some. The braces are sagging a little.

[@rstevenhanson]

Did you have to lower the nut?

[@OBrienGuitars]

Yes, The nut will also need to be adjusted during the setup phase.

[@TheMenap]

How high is your action, which you want to achieve at the first fret? thanks for the video

[@OBrienGuitars]

My action at the nut is about .7mm-.8mm

[@TheMenap]

thank you @@OBrienGuitars

[@imtxn]

Am wondering if using lower tension strings will alleviate some of the string height?

[@OBrienGuitars]

it might but the difference would probably be minimal.

[@robertthejack]

What is the cost to plane the fretboard and re fret.

[@OBrienGuitars]

$450-$500

[@cerhio74]

What do you call this measure tool in this video? I mean the tool for action measuring.

[@OBrienGuitars]

This is the string height gauge. www.lmii.com/measuring-tools/2869-lmi-digital-string-height-gauge.html

[@cerhio74]

@@OBrienGuitars Thanks a lot! I've never seen that before.

[@RayBeattie]

After doing this method, and when levelling the frets. Doesn't the extra dip at the nut end lead to problems of fret buzz? Or do you put on beefy frets for the extra meat to be able to level well?

[@OBrienGuitars]

The fretboard is level. It is just thicker at one end than the other.

[@c1arkj]

Hi Robert question sir. On a classical guitar with a raised fretboard, is the fingerboard suppose to be completely flat? Or should there be an angle on the fingerboard?

[@OBrienGuitars]

Most classical guitar fretboards are flat but some put a radius on them. Most put a taper on them along the length of the board and some across it.

[@c1arkj]

@@OBrienGuitars Sorry, I couldn't find the word but I'm talking about inclination of the fingerboard from the nut to the bridge. Is it common for there to be an incline or decline?

[@OBrienGuitars]

@@c1arkj Yes, this is common.

[@c1arkj]

I've heard some going as low as 3mm Low E and 2mm Hight E . What is the advantage to having it at 3.5 - 2.5?

[@OBrienGuitars]

3.5mm and 2.5mm is already getting low for a classical. It is not better or worse but just what I do. My experience has been that the amateur players ask for lower action and the professionals prefer it a bit higher.

[@c1arkj]

@@OBrienGuitars Makes sense, Thanks!

[@felipealonso8409]

Thank you Robert! This may be a solution for my flamenco guitar. Quick question: after 5 years of playing my guitar, my style has developed and I kind of prefer a thicker neck, would it be possible to replace the neck on that same flamenco guitar?

[@OBrienGuitars]

Anything is possible but it is major surgery. It might be cheaper to make anew guitar.

[@felipealonso8409]

@@OBrienGuitars Thanks for the response. Great channel!

[@andrewkim6037]

Apologies if this is a dumb question, but couldn't the saddle be replaced and trimmed down as necessary?

[@OBrienGuitars]

If there had been enough exposed saddle at the bridge then that would have been a viable solution. However, that was not the case.

[@clam4597]

@@OBrienGuitars Isn't it less work still to modify the bridge so the saddle can be lowered?

[@OBrienGuitars]

@@clam4597 Less work yes but removing mass from a bridge can change things tonally.

[@clam4597]

@@OBrienGuitars I really like to know more about what would affect the tonality. And even what is regarded as good tone.

[@OBrienGuitars]

@@clam4597 Everyone has a different opinion and definition of this. Start asking some good players to get an idea.

[@bobdeluxeandtheideals1356]

This is great ✊

[@MrJeezus]

Life is good!

[@soumya.official]

Sir, my Yamaha C80 classical guitar has has 6 mm for lower E and 5 mm for higher E on 12th fret of action height. And 3 mm for lower E and 2 mm for higher E on first fret of action height so is it okay or should I adjust it ? If yes than how...? Sir please reply

[@OBrienGuitars]

That seems a bit high for my tastes. I would adjust it if possible by lowering the action with nut files at the nut end and removing some of the bottom of the saddle at the bridge end. Hopefully your existing guitar allows for this adjustment.

[@soumya.official]

@@OBrienGuitars thank you sir

[@lookmanohands9194]

@@OBrienGuitars Hello, what tools would I need to remove some of the bottom of the saddle (on my Yamaha C70)? Do you have a video on how it's done?

[@stanrubin9409]

@@lookmanohands9194 let me chime in here. I just bought a Cordoba that needs to have the action lowered and I’m taking it to a professional. You need to have the saddle sanded down very precisely and evenly, or you will really mess up the tone. There are some videos here on KZbin that show pros doing this.

[@lookmanohands9194]

@@stanrubin9409 Thanks, Stan. You're right, of course. Taking it to a professional is what I'm planning on doing too. I just happened to stumble on this outstanding channel when I was looking up luthiers and guitar-making, and that's when I began wondering about what the process might involve. Could you point me to any of these videos you were talking about, of professionals doing it? (Just out of curiosity; I promise you I'm not going to attempt it myself. Ha ha...) Thanks again, and my best wishes for your classical guitar journey.

[@AlexandrosNikolakis]

You could also insert bigger tang frets so as to pull the neck back...

[@OBrienGuitars]

That was not the problem on this guitar and you could creating buzzing in the middle of the fretboard if not done properly.

[@AlexandrosNikolakis]

@@OBrienGuitars in alot of greek bouzoukis there is not a truss rod so every couple of months you do this.. that's why i mentrioned it...ofcource you know better as you are one of the best i instrument makers out there and i really like your work!

[@jaythejayzer]

I'm so glad I found this video, and channel. What is an estimated price for this kind of work if I might ask?

[@OBrienGuitars]

Thanks for watching. Expect to pay $400 to $600 for this type work.

[@jaythejayzer]

@@OBrienGuitars Great to know. Thanks for the reply!

[@Freakybananayo]

funny guy and good at what u do. keep it up

[@OBrienGuitars]

Thank you and Happy Building!

[@wdcustomguitars5336]

My gringo friend knocked down the bridge with the leveling bar. Take care, dont do any cagada my friend. Hahaha. Saudades de vocês amigão, belo video.

[@arthurfranca5516]

3,5 mm and 2,5 would be a very low action right? does it work with medium tension or more flexible strings or it could buzz? thank you and cheers

[@OBrienGuitars]

I find it works well on my guitars. I use hard tension strings.

[@arthurfranca5516]

@@OBrienGuitars thanks ;)

[@slowswimmer9169]

These are flamenco guitar measures imo, but in the end it's a matter of taste

[@Moodymongul]

isn't this best addressed with a neck reset? The high action can hint that either the neck was set bad to start with ..or the wood has moved over time. imo - These fixes all cause further issues, like: Lowering the saddle to the top of the bridge slot (or below, by removing bridge material), will remove all break angle from the string/s over the saddle. This reduces all the force exerted by the strings onto the saddle top (pushing down). Which in turn; cause less/bad tone, removes volume, projection, sustain ..and can add some odd buzzes (at certain string lengths - while fretting). Also, the reduced force on the saddle (by the strings) means the strings will move around on the bridge, especially when you pluck more aggressively (like rest strokes). This string movement hampers faster picking/playing/technique. As the string must 'recover' (from moving on the saddle) between being plucked. imho, mind ;-) Peace.

[@OBrienGuitars]

On a steel string guitar that would be the best recourse - neck reset. However, this is classical guitar with Spanish heel and neck joint.

[@MarkInLA]

I have a Cordoba C10 which too has too low saddle to lower action without bone near exact same height of bridge slot around it..So I keep (wrongly) changing truss rod to get action I need (but if too taught then not enough bow in the neck)..I always thought buying this guit 'out of box', sight unseen, was taking a chance...All in all it's a great instrument with deep bass and strong volume.. Re-cocking the neck at the heel would do the trick..But I don't think I want to spend that kind of money and instead just keep living with it, changing truss til I find a happy medium..Problem is, after a while I start thinking it's still not good enough and once again mess with the truss...This seems to never stop.. I know it needs the re-cock or what Robert does here..Maybe if I contact Cordoba they'd help me. Maybe they'd consider it a recall....M

[@OpenWoodShop]

Yet another method I see often (and am attempting now) is to heat the neck and bend it. It usually takes a few times and may not be permanent which is why I guess it's not discussed here. Nonetheless, this is a very cheap guitar that the customer which is of sentimental value mostly but apparently not sentimental enough to spend more money on!

[@Generalvass]

Não acredito que essa seria a melhor solução, para mim, o braço todo deveria ter sido removido e reposicionado.

[@OBrienGuitars]

O dificil é achar um cliente que paga para uma cirugia dessas. O que a gente quer e o que a cliente quer as vezes sao duas coisas diferentes.

[@Generalvass]

@@OBrienGuitars Entendo, passar bem.

[@BreauxBobby]

Woe k. Maybe I can just take some sandpaper and sand down everything, frets and all? I mean this looks like a lot of work and quite possibly a serious amount of skill that I may not possess. Very impressive!

[@OBrienGuitars]

Ì would advise against this approach.

[@Rick-fs9wc]

For me this is the perfect excuse to buy a new guitar.

[@christianricardocardoso9113]

Robbie, I have an acoustic guitar that needs to be re-finished, re-finishing It the guitar sound os gonna be afected!

[@OBrienGuitars]

probably but sometimes it is for the best.

[@christianricardocardoso9113]

Thanks for the feedback!

[@bonitabromeliads]

I think maybe I'll get a new guitar

[@maemonrahal4793]

💖👍👍🌹🌹🌹

[@joesimon2018]

Heat the fretboard and remove it. Add a thicker fretboard and plane THAT if necessary. That way you don't change the overall thickness. You are already planing, reslotting and refretting anyway. Might as well retain the same thickness.

[@andrewbyng9249]

I would just trash a guitar with this problem. Some instruments are more trouble than they are worth.

[@anish_99]

Classical guitar luthiers are stuck in old age, why not give it a truss rod while building these guitars . They send their guitars all over the world , and each place has different weather conditions.

[@OBrienGuitars]

A truss rod would perhaps help with neck relief as the artist moves around but not with the action.