Luwians, Anatolia and the Bronze Age Collapse ~ Dr. Zangger

In this lecture we interview Dr. Zangger the President of Luwian Studies.
We dive into the ancient world during and after the Late Bronze Age Collapse touching on a variety of peoples and civilizations from the Tribes of the Sea Peoples to the Ancient Egyptians and Hittites.
But, we also talk about the Luwians, the Trojan War, Hittite relations in the ancient Near East, the Sea Peoples and their raids, the classical works of Homer (the Iliad and the Odyssey, the Greek Dark Ages, archaeological findings and the great divide in academia on the subject of the Luwians and the Late Bronze Age Collapse that was quite apocalyptic in many ways.
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[@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449]

Check out our new store! teespring.com/stores/the-history-shop Get your Sea Peoples | Late Bronze Age Merch below! Mugs: teespring.com/new-sea-peoples-mediterranean?pid=658&cid=102950 Hoodies | Shirts | Tank Tops: teespring.com/get-sea-peoples-mediterranean?pid=212&cid=5819 Get your Hittite Merch below! Mugs: teespring.com/HittiteEmpireMug?pid=658&cid=102950&sid=front Shirts | Tank Tops | Hoodies: teespring.com/hittite-empire-shirt?pid=2&cid=2397 Trojan War Merch Below! Mugs: teespring.com/trojan-war-coffee-mug?pid=658&cid=102950 Tank Tops | Shirts | Hoodies: teespring.com/TrojanWarShirt?pid=2&cid=2397

[@threeeyedgoddess7635]

Dr. Zangger is always worth listening to his work deserves far more attention

[@algoenespanol]

This talk leads me to imagine the odyssey as a recounting of Hellenic diaspora as a result of the Bronze Age collapse. Maybe we’re not seeing the retelling of the stories of a great hero but rather the collective stories of the experiences of many people who had to leave home to live in mysterious and exotic lands, and also they’re longing to return home and restore their memories of life before the collapse.

[@Dryfee]

What a treat of a channel. Thanks Dr Zangger for reaching out to the enthusiast/laymen community

[@patrickholt2270]

Very interesting. After reflecting on the collapse and dismantling of Yugoslavia last time, I find myself this time wondering what is required to lose the use of writing. To be useful, literacy cannot be an isolated, rare or secret technology, and indeed it doesn't require enormous professional intellect to acquire. Just the division of labour and the availability of income to live on while learning it and using it that you haven't had to grow yourself. So long as any significant degree of division of labour and political organisation exists to distribute incomes to non-farmers and non-fishermen, then the technology should not die out, just because some of those who could read are still alive to teach others how, and if people can read, they can learn to write. So complexity of division of labour and all centralised political organisation must have been destroyed, so that all who survived were thrust into subsistence agriculture, fishing, herding and hunting, and without sufficient surplus available, at least for decades, to provide for hierarchical polities gathering in agricultural surpluses and allocating them out to scribes, soldiers, craftspeople and trading. My feelng is that a war or a series of wars, or a very protracted and appalling war on its own wouldn't be enough. Typically wars do not cause societies to lose or abandon technologies. What is known and useful remains in use, if on a smaller scale, because it remains useful. The World Wars did not create a Dark Age (although they were very dark). Typically, with exceptions where depopulating genocide is used, as by the Mongols, if anything the sophistication of military and political organisation increases, and technologies are improved for waging war and sustaining the armies. This is my problem with HG Wells's vision of war destroying civilisation. In terms of destroying all polities and political organisation, the thing about a war, no matter how terrible, is that sooner or later someone wins, and they obviously still have their organisation. So it seems to me that something else has to have been going on as well as warfare, but not rather than warfare, to render all those polities and structures of government and economic organisation fragile enough that the sacking of capitals for loot as attested to could have destroyed them so irrecoverably as to achieve the ending of writing.

[@MarkVrem]

Its not the loss of literacy on a local level, but on a centralized empire level. People still knew how to write in sand, or with chalk etc, make calculations during seafaring voyages. Its the loss of centralized palace tablet making. That is my 2 cents. It's a dark age because we don't have access to the writing during that time period because they were scattered or done in a less centralized, or less permanent way.

[@MarkVrem]

I'll just also add that for the everyday person/sailors the Phoenician alphabet was used not the Mycenean palace alphabets. Phoenician alphabet already existed during the Bronze Age.. 200 years later when we find the Greek alphabet, it is a derivative of the Phoenician after over 200 years of morphing into what is Greek.

[@larryconcepts]

@@MarkVrem Indeed, the same lensing perspective is often applied to other fields like music. A lack of notation does not mean there weren't continuous transmitted traditions of song, dance, clothing and footwear, house-ware crafting, cooking! The question isn't about writing disappearing, but of writers disappearing. In our own times witnessing vast refugee populations, it is easy to see how great deal of a culture can be wiped out in one generation. Written material was not readily accessible, or reproducible. Oral traditions were vastly more important in all these social heritages, ultimately resulting in 'Homeric' epics. Artifacts of literacy, (such as stone or metal engraving, even clay tablets) are not easily portable, and tend to accumulate around large temples only feasible in established centers of civilization. Everyday scrawlings of day to day interactions tend to crumble away on perishable materials.

[@trevorhunton7526]

Its all quite simple to explain. Each city state had a small contingent of scribe's housed in the main palace complex, folks blamed the ruling class for all their woes, attacked and murdered the ruling classes along with all their close associates.

[@simonholyoak8869]

What a great reply

[@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449]

What are your thoughts about the wonderful presentation given by Dr. Zangger? I really enjoyed getting to have a face to face with such and awesome teacher and leader. Check out the links in the video description above for more works by Dr. Zangger, his awesome KZbin channel and their website. To support this channel, look below! Help support The Study of Antiquity and the Middle Ages by joining us at these links below! Become a Patron of The Study of Antiquity and the Middle Ages and make history matter! Join us on Patreon: www.patreon.com/The_Study_of_Antiquity_and_the_Middle_Ages Check out history related merchandise through our affiliate link to SPQR Emporium! spqr-emporium.com/?aff=3 The link above is an affiliate link which means we will receive a small commission from your generous purchases, just another way to support your history channel. Donate directly at our PayPal: paypal.me/NickBarksdale?locale.x=en_US Facebook: facebook.com/THESTUDYOFANTIQUITYANDTHEMIDDLEAGES/ Twitter: twitter.com/NickBarksdale Instagram: instagram.com/study_of_antiquity_middle_ages/ Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/164050034145170/

[@TheDeadlyDan]

Thank you so very much for this one. I admire Dr. Zangger's work. It's opened my eyes to a good deal of ancient civilizations.

[@wolfgang4043]

Thank you, it was great to have a chance to listen to a great expert in this field! Bronze age is addictive, yes! The thing that makes me really sad is, that the Balkan region is excluded. Again. We've got cities here that are exactly like Troy. We've got hundreds of "gradisca" (bronze age fortified settlements) here, a proof that people felt threatened. Yes, the Bronze Age here brought dividing of population, the rich and the poor, the nobility and the common people, it brought materialistic world view. Please, take a look at the settlements in Slovenia. Dozens and dozens of them, connected in a chain where each was visible to the others and was able to send imergency messages if necessary. Like Debela Griza. A massive fortification (You Tube Goran Zivec, gradisca na slovenskem). Please, take a look at the Croatian production Megaliti u Dalmaciji. There were hundreds of fortifications here, many like Troy, as I said. We see Troy, Mycenae, Argos, Bronze Age Sparta etc. as unique. The truth is, the entire peninsula of Balkan was armed heavily at that time. As if something terrible was going on. And as it seems, Bronze age here survived through the "minor WW" in the Eastern Mediterranean! Also, the Balkan Neolithic is neglected. Vincha and other cultures. I tell you, my friend, the knowledge of growing crops did not come here from Mesopotamia. Our cultures are older. Pity nobody wants to study them. I guess it is the language barrior. Nobody speaks, so called "Slavic" (Venetic, Windish) languages. Again, thank you for your effort. Looking forward to more. Greetings from Slovenija, the Bronze age success story.

[@timomastosalo]

What is that link to his video you mentioned? Is it that Channel?

[@TheDeadlyDan]

@@timomastosalo Try "Luwian Studies" or "The Oriental Institute" channels, here on KZbin.

[@timomastosalo]

@@TheDeadlyDan Yeah I saw the Luwian Studies channel in the feed. I've marked it already to watch later - thank you for further info. Just wanted a confirmation, which video he meant when hyping Dr Ziggler's video on KZbin. Was looking for that in the description, but there was just the whole channel, plus other stuff. I wrote this also as a reminder for him to put more precisely the videos he promises to the description.

[@amuslockhart519]

Thank you very much for putting this together! Learned very much and loved every second of it! btw.. Great Questions!!

[@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449]

Update, there was an error and the video description now has all the links that you could possibly want :)

[@Sashek]

Interesting video. What is the name of the story referred to? "The Tale of Winna Moon"? I'd like to get more information on this.

[@nigelwilliams5653]

Well, I started writing as I heard you began to talk about sea people, but still this is exactly what am saying, "the Egyptians , did call them by name"

[@alanguy58]

True dat, Nigel, but it’s difficult to be sure on a lot of the names. I like Dr. Eric Clines speculations on the names we’re unsure of. As I recall they stretch as far west as Sicily and Sardinia. My bet is that any entity that was in that trading network for the Cypriot copper was economically disturbed when the Hittites invaded Cyprus for its copper after losing their eastern Anatolian copper source to the Assyrians. Remember copper to those folks was like Mid-East oil of the world markets today.

[@christopheb9221]

@@alanguy58 if it was written in egyptian(which we are 100% what it sounded like) what did he compare these names to, modern english and modern day names ? or is there other reasons that Dr Cline thinks they were those far away places. Also think about the names we give people they are almost always exonyms ex germany, deutschland(also as mentioned in this video with what we call ppl today vs what they call thems). Also what does the name cover or who falls under this name. Since the world was much smaller then(figuratively speaking) each name didnt have to be a kingdom they could be a tribe or a city or empire. We often simplify the empires and call everybody by the name of the leaders but those smaller distinctions still exist. for an american you would say that but could call yourself part of the state or city, or region of the US and prob more.

[@JB-gw8ee]

Love your channel. So much great material!

[@timflatus]

Thanks for turning us on to Dr Zangger's work Nick!

[@yrebrac]

Great idea covering this topic

[@rubenjames7345]

Good effort. I appreciate any attempt to widen people's horizons.

[@free_gold4467]

Thanks for the great content Mark!

[@melenatorr]

So very glad to hear about the progress of the Luwian project; I spent a good portion of today listening to the sun and moon presentation and the introductory lecture, both so wonderfully enlightening. Regarding the accuracy of Homer, in "The War that Killed Achilles", by Caroline Alexander, there is some discussion on general accuracy of warfare, weaponry, horses, and other details, and Alexander concludes that, on many of these details, Homer can probably be often relied upon (note my overload of qualifiers....). There's also the idea that Homer himself (or themselves) may have originated from this very region, and so his perspective on the war is interesting. It feels good to live in a time when some of our cultural blinkers may be coming off in the field of archaeology.

[@KevinArdala01]

Great interview; great guest too. Always a welcome subject... 👍

[@artkoenig9434]

Well done, gentlemen! Thank you!

[@cossak1453]

it was amusing to hear you concur on various points Zangger was making...based on the 6 years of reading and study you say you've made. It was a very...American way to approach the subject!

[@seanmccann8368]

Wonderful as ever Nick, you bring people and subjects to my attention that I could never hope to encounter in the course of my ordinary day to day life. Thank you for this. I believe that the only hope for humanity lies in learning the truth that nothing ever really changes in essence - the names, languages, cultures and other externals vary but human beings are always the same and we need to learn that we are all equally human.

[@Ben1159a]

I really enjoyed this. Thank you.

[@annalisette5897]

Thank you, Dr. Zangger! Thank you, Nick! (I don't know very much about antiquity. When I want to learn I pick channels and sources presented by knowledgeable people who are passionate. Thus my study of antiquity starts here.)

[@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449]

Anna Morris fellow history students like you are the reason we do what we do! You have our best wishes and stick with us because great things are coming!

[@annalisette5897]

Thank you! I have only heard of Luwians in passing and now I have found the Luwian Studies channel.

[@mariadelpilarllona4753]

Great program👍👍👍

[@jeffreyriley8742]

I'm writing a fiction book on ancient Egyptian tomb robbing and one of my characters is a Luwian.

[@cliffgulliver4626]

Call him Phil

[@RemusKingOfRome]

Excellent !

[@lucastop5660]

Thanks God!. the Anatolian Studies started!

[@etee08]

Love it

[@kimberlyperrotis8962]

It’s always great to hear from the distinguished Dr. Zangger. Would it be correct to say that the Luvians were also united by sharing a common group of closely related (Luvian) dialects? Also, isn’t Luvian one of the oldest attested IE languages? Thanks.

[@macdon3201]

I know I recently told you to do a video on the Luwians, Didn’t know you already had one. Would love to see another video on the Thracians possibly.

[@Mentox2]

Amazing video, I never heard of the Luwians before and this provides very interesting information, if i were an archeologist or historian, I would be dying to study this in-depth.

[@arlisskowski]

Thanks for this Nick. just finished a fantastic fictional history book called The Hittite by Ben Bova - a great fictional portrayal of the fall of Troy.

[@nickking8994]

Thanks to the late Nick Barksdale for this. RIP

[@joelkurowski9276]

Around 21:40 theres and odd transition that cuts off Dr. Zangger mid sentence

[@Sashek]

Interesting video. What is the name of the story referred to? "The Tale of Winna Moon"? I'd like to get more information on this.

[@FOE7]

I think it is the Story of Wenamun, en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Wenamun

[@alanguy58]

Personally, I just can’t get enough of the Luwians, Dr. Zangger, the Trojan Wars, the Late Bronze Age Collapse and Dr. Petra Goedegebuure a Luwian linguist who lectures on the Luwian language (writing) and the origins of the Luwians.

[@EasternOrthodox101]

I will clarify everything for you: Luwians are the Lydians, and their original name is Lud (son of Shem). They were not of European origin, they were Semites. In the Bible, Pul & Lud who draw the bow = Pala & Luwia, which were some of the sea peoples. Pul = Hul = Hurrians.

[@free_gold4467]

Rest in peace dear Nick Barksdale, very sadly missed.

[@Emcee_Squared]

Yes I just recently saw his lecture on the Luwians. The hypothesis that the Luwians are the sea peoples is very interesting and plausible. It also it gives some intriguing incite into the age old myth that the Romans were descendants of Aeneas of Troy. Could the Romans have been a sea people??? Perhaps. One other hypothesis I stumbled upon recently is that the neighbors of the Romans, the Etruscans, long believed to speak a non-indo-european language isolate, perhaps were speaking a Luwian language. This also has interesting implications for other sea peoples, including the Philistines from the bible. Did they too speak a type of Luwian?

[@BalkanCrusader]

Some stories saying that the Etruscans migrated from Anatolia and settled in italy.. After bronze age collapse and in the Greek dark age,lots of migrations happened in eastern Mediteranean, Adriatic sea,etc.. Phrygians for example moved from Balkan to Anatolia after the Trojan war.. recent excavations showing that the Philistines had southern European genes,Celts started to migrate across Mediteranean and via Balkan to central and west Europe, etc.. Rome at the beginning wasn't great naval state,only after Liburnians and Phoenicians teach them how to build ships and sail,Rome become powerful at the sea.. My first candidates would be exactly people that I mentioned, Liburnians..they controlled Adriatic sea and were basically thalassocracy for almost a millennium..

[@EasternOrthodox101]

You're actually right, because Etruscans (Tarshish) came originally from Tarsus, Cilicia which was of course in south anatolia so they were living among the Luwians. Now I am going to clarify EVERYTHING for you: The Luwians are actually the Lydians, and their original name is Lud (son of Shem). They were not of European origin, they were Semites. In the Bible, Pul & Lud who draw the bow = Pala & Luwia, which were some of the sea peoples. Pul = Hul = Hurrians.

[@EasternOrthodox101]

@@BalkanCrusader The Philistines, who were also of the sea peoples, are descendents of Egyptians, who settled themselves in Crete (Caphtor), which was also a previous settlement of another Egyptian nation called Caphtorites

[@sagebalsys7390]

Are there any sources on bronze age Luristani culture. I've been looking at their weapons a lot and have developed a great love of them.

[@johnpedersen2958]

What about the finds of Tollense valley?

[@McadMcad]

"Y'all" are doin an excellent job. He said, "Y'all"

[@alexgabriel5423]

Has Dr.Wouhuizen written more after the Language of the Sea People? Will Phrygian be deciphered? Lycian also??

[@alexgabriel5423]

There were letters between the Hittites and the Trojans. King Rhesus and General Akamas were Thracian allies of Troy. Aka + ama great force in Avestan Persian. Most Thracian names are not studied for their etymology it seems...

[@doxdog]

Look up the Burckle crater impact event. The first papers published on this was 2005 but the rest of academia haven’t quite caught on with the scale of the destruction. 2800 BC is the proposed date of the fragmented comet impact. The Indian Ocean is one of the impact sites.

[@koksalceylan9032]

Mr. Nick Barksdale, thank you.

[@Thomas_Geist]

One can look at the LBAC is different ways. Most archeologist are looking for an event that kicked it off, but it wouldn't have been a collapse had they weathered it. So, the more appropriate question is why did they not survive whatever it was that stressed them. I would say the answer to this was the growing trade specialization and efficiency and interdependence from Egypt to Sumer both culturally and economically brought about by a technology they didn't fully understand, i.e., writing.

[@pthomps1954]

Something happened 3000 years ago that wiped out civilizations surrounding the Mediterranean Sea and plunged the area into a dark age. People who could read and write disappeared overnight. Building and stoneworking skills were no longer available. Pottery was crude and small compared to earlier work. Farming skills were lost. It was as if everybody with skills disappeared all of a sudden. No written records have been found to describe what happened. Many theories exist but there is almost no evidence to support any of them. In that spirit, I offer my own theory. I believe a tremendous flood, several hundred feet deep, wiped out every living thing all around the shores of the Mediterranean. Possibly a tsunami 130 meters high wiped out buildings, animals, people, documents and crops in the space of a few hours. Famine, fire, pestilence, plagues, earthquakes, wind, rain, volcanoes, war and drought are not able to make such a clean sweep. Some people will always make it through to pass on what happened or retain skills that could be passed on to others. The fact that people had to start over and develop these skills anew suggests widespread annihilation. Many stoneworking skills have not been relearned to this day. Historical accounts mention a water line halfway up the pyramids at Giza that could be seen on the casing stones before they were removed. The pyramids are 140 meters tall and the base is 60 meters above sea level so the halfway point is 130 meters above sea level. Salt of the same composition as evaporated seawater was found on the walls up to this level on the interior as well. It was fortunate that these pyramids were tall enough to leave this record. Sea shells were deposited in large quantities on the land surrounding the sea. Thick layers of silt were built up around the base of the pyramids and probably buried everything over a wide area. The Sadd el-Kafara dam in the south of Egypt had a crest height of 125 meters and was destroyed. A freshwater lake, formed in a natural depression, was replaced by saltwater that remains to this day. One must wonder why no record of such an apocalypse exists. This is evidence itself. If no one was alive that could read or write, or even had the skills to make papyrus or clay tablets to write on, that would explain it. Few eyewitnesses would have survived to tell others what happened. The fact that there are no documents about such a high water level and no documents regarding the collapse of civilizations suggest a possible connection between the two. It is a blank part of history. Stories of war and Sea Peoples are more reasonable in the context of deserted lands being repopulated by whoever gets there first. Salt left by retreating waters would have ruined the soil for years. Groundwater may have been contaminated as well, so resettlement was probably delayed for some time. Reportedly, widespread fires were prevalent in many areas and that might be a clue as to the cause of the high water. A flaming meteor could cause fires and a tsunami as well as a massive volcanic eruption. Perhaps evidence has already been uncovered that could be viewed in a different light. Also tests could be done on the stones of the pyramids, looking for salt content to verify a line of demarcation. It is not likely that someone would have made up a story about saltwater lines on the pyramids. It doesn’t do anything to support a tomb theory or other agenda. If the sea did reach that high, it would explain why we never heard about it.

[@kealani6535]

Please post the title and author of the book you mention around 28.30.

[@christophercripps7639]

I agree Dr. Zangger presents the subject very well. Funny, when the topic of when everyone thinks alike arose... I immediately thought of Sir Arthur Evans & his unshakeable, preconceived notion: Linear B is not Greek. What I take from the revelation by M Ventris & Dr Chadwick that Linear B was Greek: What we believe happened in the past is a consensus based upon the EVIDENCE found to date & subject to change. I hope to live to the date when Linear A can be read. Who knows how our view of Mycenaean Greece or Egypt or eastern Med Sea geopolitics may change.

[@robertlittin5196]

re: the Sea People ... if they were escaping famine and looking for a new place place to settle, WHY did they destroy everything and the just move on?

[@Joyride37]

Extra History has a pretty good speculative narrative. There was a lot going on than more than just famine The gist is that drought causes famine causes migration from west to east. Stable eastern powers are also somewhat affected by drought but have systems in place to withstand that. However, the influx of refugees over the years creates a strain. Their own people are struggling already too. Only so many people can be helped. The most destitute and least connected are turned away. Resentment and desperation grows, those that are shut out turn to violence. They’ll take the food and the land themselves. Things probably get out of hand. Others never came as refugees to begin with, opting to raid from the start. More desperate local citizens turn against their rulers. Alliances and tribes form. Riots, coups, untenable refugee influx, and outside invasions likely inadvertently destroys some of the very resources people want Simultaneously there is already political tension and increasing to near constant warfare between the great powers of Mycenae, Hittites, Egypt, and petty kingdoms between them all. Something happens on Cypress that makes it go dark, and that’s a huge hub of Tin trade, the backbone of the Bronze Age (tin is pretty rare as a resource). Trade is threatened, so stable revenue and people’s livelihoods are affected. Expensive-to-maintain-trained-from-birth warrior castes are depleted beyond what can be replaced by war. The system strains and cracks. Coalitions of Sea Peoples raid Egyptian, Canaanite and Hittite coasts. Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions take place as a cherry top of it all. Ugarit is gone. Hatti and Mycenae collapse utterly. Writing is lost for 400 years in Greece Hope that helped!

[@aidanmagill6769]

Luwians? What is this new word? Nearly broke my screen I clicked that fast.

[@IblameBlame]

Whtats the tale called at 28:45? The tale of winnow moon? The tale of winnaboon?

[@cemalgiritli6320]

That luwians and Hitit people culture still living in anatolia ; that people we call now "Anatolian Alevies" people.

[@Dazbog373]

I would like some alone time with your bookcase :-)

[@jeanenry]

There are always groups marginalised by their local community becoming destitute. As such they assemble as larger and larger entities intent on preserving their own existence to the expenses of any other.

[@richardsmith1284]

Any chance the Greeks, after destroying Troy, decided they were unstoppable and tried to conquer the Mediterranean.

[@MarkVrem]

The way he has it playing out is that the Luwians form a coalition and attack the Hittites by land and by sea. What happens is Hattusa gets sacked by the land army. The Naval attack gets back to their ships and they are a bit not happy because the Army got to plunder Hattusa and not them. So what they decide to do is BECOME THE SEA PEOPLES AND GO GET WHAT IS OWED THEM, by pillaging Phoenicians, and Egyptians. BUT WHAT THEY ALSO PILLAGE IS GREECE!!! They steal the Princess. Now Mario and Luigi form a coalition in Greece and they attack the Luwians to get the princess back. When they come back to Greece a civil war breaks out between the leaders that left and the leaders that took over.

[@mariadelpilarllona4753]

Does this time match with the biblical exodus?

[@fiktivhistoriker345]

I wonder if Dr Zangger knows about the theory of David Rohl, stated in his book "A Test Of Time" (in german "Pharaonen und Propheten"), that about 300 years were falsely added to egyptian history. It is not widely accepted, but it solves a lot of problems in chronology, even in this case. During the homeric battle of Troy the mycenean (greek) states were on the height of their power and they still existed some time after it. When the sea people roamed, the myceneans seemed to be among the first that were destroyed. The gap between the mycenean and the later greek culture is said to be about 400 years if i remember correctly. It is hard to believe that even a combination of plagues, famine and war could cause such a long period of low civilisation. Now it would be still a big gap, but not this long. The romans connected the fall of troy with the founding of their city (Aeneas), but that would mean a gap of more than 400 years between the two events. And if we combine platos atlantians with the homeric war, these were stopped by greek forces, according to the egyptians. The sea people were finally stopped by the egyptians. So there might have been a first trojan war (the "homeric") about 1200 b.c.e. and a second about 900 b.c.e. caused by the sea people, where probably the romans or etruscans descended from. There is a book by a certain Anton Bammer about Ephesos (in german: "Ephesos Stadt an Fluss und Meer"). In this book there is a chapter about the localisation of the early city Apasa and the "hittite topograpy of south west asia minor", according to hittite documents. I haven't found this information in the luwian studies i have seen on the internet, so i don't know if this is known to Dr Zangger.

[@locatemarbles]

The livelihood of the Greeks depends on trade, which is why they became the masters of the sea. In times of collapse of the international trade they turn to raids and piracy to sustain themselves. The Iliad could be the memory of those raids and the Odyssey the memory of the raiders returning home.

[@douglaskingsman2565]

Nick Barksdale, how can I email you?

[@douglaskingsman2565]

Oh, he's dead now. RIP.

[@Joyride37]

At 16:13 the map suggests that the Sherdan tribe of sea peoples might reference the Seha riverlands. I thought the Sherden/Shardana had been more definitively connected to Bronze Age Sardinia? The sherden even are represented by horned helmets on the Egyptian reliefs, and horned helmets from the Bronze Age have all been found in Sardinia, connected to the Nuragic civilization

[@kibele51]

Beycesultan höyük-Denizli/Türkey.Luvians are first people in the Anatolia

[@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885]

he was a bit set back by the fanboy treatment. haha

[@gabeyo5071]

👨

[@MustafaSav-cb2cp]

What the most mind boggling truth to come out of this is that the west wrote its own history after the Ottoman Turks took over Constantinople in 1453 and tried the same thing in Vienna in 1683. This Euro Centric view is now absolute.

[@IblameBlame]

Didn't Arthur Evans realize Minoans were different from Myceneans after visiting Knossos?

[@claudiosaltara7003]

Who are the Luciana

[@kubacski8454]

👍

[@sahhaf1234]

superb.. as a turkish citizen I hope for more excavations in western turkey...

[@EasternOrthodox101]

Yes, so am I bro. Luwians are actually the Lydians (west Turkey), and their original name is Lud (son of Shem). They were not of European origin, they were Semites. In the Bible, Pul & Lud who draw the bow = Pala & Luwia, which were some of the sea peoples. Pul = Hul = Hurrians.

[@EasternOrthodox101]

Are you of Turkic origin or Lydian?

[@skipjackjohnson5528]

I want to have a beer with the sea people.

[@MrGeneralPB]

tha tale of wind and moon?

[@Thomas_Geist]

Isn't it a bit confusing to refer to the Mycenaeans as Greeks following Homer's identification just because they previously occupied the same territory? The Mycenaeans appear to have been a different culture than the later Dorians or Hellens we identify with the culture that arose during the Axial period. I don't believe we have any indication of an evolution between Linear B and the later Greek alphabet. Homer's works were written down centuries after the fact and it would be understandable for him to refer to the Mycenaeans. The Hellens had the same need as the Romans to claims some antiquity for their own culture. Do we know anything about the Luwian culture, pantheon, script and language? Are they Aryans that migrated down from the North. Might they have had more similarity with the later Hellenes than the Mycenaeans. According to Homer the Trojan pantheon was very similar to the later Greek city state culture. I believe it was Solon that told Plato of his encounter with Egyptian priests who remarked of the Greeks, "you are children not knowing your history." Or something to that effect. Homer could simply have assigned by default that the Mycenaeans had the same pantheon, but do we have any actual archaeological evidence to support that? The Mycenaeans seemed to have been influence by the Egyptians if art is a guide. My own theory is that this "Luwian" culture did not take the Mycenaean invasion laying down. This would not be consistent with how people behaved back then - or today for that matter. Either the Luwians ARE the Dorians that had their revenge or related to them racially and culturally. Not only because of the similarity of the names, Mycenaeans and Messenians, but also the way they were treated by Sparta would be consistent with the enslavement usually accompanying one culture displacing another. The Spartans did exhibit a significant fear that the Messenians could (and did) rise again so there was some respect for their potential. Another possible support for this theory is that when the Messenians rebelled against the Sparta, Athens offered their help to put it down indicating some memory of a common enemy that took a united effort originally to rout; and that had the potential to become a serious problem that could spill over into Athens should it not be checked. The is the sort of respect reserved for a formerly great people that required considerable effort to overcome. Also, if the Messenians were culturally and/or racially related to the Dorian Greeks the Spartans would not have treated them as slaves. Sparta turned the offer down but I think the offer itself must have a context pointing to the possibility that the Athenians and Spartans had some common history with the Messenians given the fact that Sparta and Athens were never great friend. It reminds me of the saying, "my brother and I against my cousin; my cousin and I against the world." Keeping the Mycenaeans cum Messenians well under foot could have been seen by the Athenians as their historic obligation to Sparta going all the way back to Troy. I can't resolve the question as to why Athens would offer to help Sparta and in a situation where they obviously didn't ask for it nor need it. Why not just let one of Sparta's neighbors drain them a bit militarily? No skin off Athen's backside if Sparta was taken down a notch. Athen's sounds a bit overeager, not to help Sparta per se but have another shot at these Mycenaeans. Just bad blood and all that. Do we have any evidence of Messenian culture that may indicate they were the unfortunate descendants of the Mycenaeans? Did they leave any written history, pottery style, art, whatever, and if not, might that also point to the Mycenaeans who went literally dark after 1200BC? Whole peoples don't just up and disappear. If they left no signs of a culture yet the Spartans were concerned enough about them to assassinate any one of them that showed any promise at all, this only heightens the mystery.

[@soik1401]

The Dorians did speak the same language as the Mycenaeans, which Homer refers to as Achaeans. That much is clear. So both are Greek speakers. It turns out though, that Mycenaeans were in part related to the Minoans. This is based on genetic testing in recent years. The difference between Minoans and Mycenaeans is a degree of Indo-European steppe admixture of 12% as well as a small degree of admixture from the Caucasus region. It could be that the Dorians were a second wave of Indo-European steppe admixture into Greece. The difference is that the Dorians may have not mixed with the indigenous people of Greece yet. Perhaps they mixed with Anatolian or Balkan peoples instead. So herein could lie the differences between Mycenaeans and Dorians. This is just speculation though as we don't have genetic material of Dorians or post-Iron Age Greeks aside from the modern Greeks. And although the latter have similarities with the Mycenaeans, the difference is that additional steppe admixture can be found in Greeks today. But it is likely that this could also have come during the Middle Ages.

[@Thomas_Geist]

@@soik1401 Thanks for taking the tie. Interesting. Where can I look further? When you say, "Greek speakers," what does that mean? Are you referring to an Indo-European family similarity. You're not suggesting they would have understood each other. Do we know that from translations of Linear B and comparison to later Classical Greek? I'm not sure how reliable Homer would have been in this regard having lived some 400 years after the fact and pulling together oral stories. From what I understand Linear B completely disappeared after the LBAC and there was a virtual dark age separating them from Homer. There are also concepts in Homer's retelling that are clearly not Bronze Age but either Homer's additions or from other Iron Age sources, for example, Bronze Age Achilles is not likely to have said or even thought, "the gods are jealous of us BECAUSE we're mortal." This is a self-conscious concept that might be found after the Axial Period or even pre-Socratic in that the motives of the gods is not speculated upon during the Bronze Age anywhere I'm aware of. The gods was feared, placated, used as an excuse for bad behavior and taken for granted but not questioned or psychoanalyzed. Don't mind me. I'm trying a conceptual approach to separate Homer from the original legends which could have as easily come from Luwian sources as Mycenaean. I've ofter thought that Homer leaned toward being more sympathetic to the Trojans anyway. The Germans seem to be doing the best work in anthropology and archaeology these days. I suspect they have less political pressure to conform to the academic status quo which is rotting the Academy here in N. America.

[@soik1401]

@@Thomas_Geist Well, Homer was certainly a product of the Iron Age and not of the late Bronze Age. This much is clear. But as far as the language is concerned, we do have clay tablets of the late Bronze Age and we can clearly decipher the words as being part of the Greek language family. Now, to what extent an Iron Age Greek would have understood a Bronze Age Greek is always left on speculation. After all, languages are not static and keep evolving. Ask yourself how far back in time an English native can understand English. Nevertheless, we can clearly see Linear B is Greek. We can understand these tablets because of our knowledge of Greek from later periods. www.unm.edu/~blanter/Linear_B_Glossary.pdf Now as to what extent the pre-Dorian Greeks and the post-Dorian Greeks are similar. That's quite interesting. We don't really know with absolute certainty if the Dorian invasion actually happened. But evidence points out that such an invasion happened. We also know that their dialect is akin to North-western Greek. And it may have even had a moderate biological impact as well, as the Greeks in the North may have not yet mixed ( a lot) with Minoans as yet. As I said, we have no genetic material of classical Greeks yet. We only have Minoan, Mycenaean and modern material. www.researchgate.net/publication/318862250_Genetic_origins_of_the_Minoans_and_Mycenaeans Nevertheless, a Dorian-Luwian connection is certainly interesting. Some ancient Greek historians did mention that the Dorians came to avenge their ancestors. Perhaps they were referring to a large scale war centuries before. Like the Trojan War. Perhaps some Greek speakers sided with the Trojans and not the Achaeans and suffered the consequences.

[@Thomas_Geist]

@@soik1401 Good points and thanks for replying. Yes, the Thracians may have been a neolithic source of Mycenaeans, Dorians as well as Etruscans and Latin Romans, but my point is that they would probably not have known nor cared about that and their cultures would have developed very differently. The former was completely displaced by the latter. The picture you propose is similar to the situation in Ireland where a race of mound building Celts were already there since for many thousands of years during the neolithic and were later invaded by black haired, green eyed Celts from Ionia and I'm sure they did not have the wherewithal to understand that they were racially or culturally from a similar origin. Every indication points to the Hittites, Scythians and even Khazarians also being related to migrations from the Northern Stepp and ralated to Modern Europeans. Hell, you have Celts in Turkey. With regard to the intelligibility of English: many words as late as the US Constitution have changed in common usage and connotation, but I'm sure you were referring to the Middle English of Chaucer. Yes or course. That is one of the issues with phonetic based language. When arbitrary sounds are assigned to abstract concepts it doesn't take long to split into differently languages altogether. Try understanding a contemporary from Appalachia which is more like the Scotch-Irish version of English spoken in the 18th Century than what you or I may speak. Anthropology is an interesting and also maddening pursuit and I don't hold any position very tightly. It's like we knew nothing before genetic research which has taken the field to another level. I was not aware we had cracked Linear A yet.

[@soik1401]

@@Thomas_Geist I am not sure we are on the same line here. Do you propose that the Dorians completely displaced the Mycenaean Greeks, but that they were related and spoke the same language? So the Classical Greeks did not really know they were not their direct descendants? Seems far fetched. Remember that Dorians did not colonise Cyprus for example. The Mycenaean dialect survived on the island. Also many Mycenaeans fled to the other side of the Aegean. To Asia Minor. Or they hid on the mountains, where their dialect survived. It is their writing which did not survive. Because it was only used for administration. But religious practisses, traditions, holy places, survived. I.e the minotaur is part of Minoan mythology. So is Aphrodite and Athena. Some ancient Athenian historians considered themselves to be autochtonus people who changed their tongue. So if anything, there was some intermixture going on there. The Dorians are just another layer of their biological make up. And they were probably related in the first place.

[@TheJett1904]

Links?

[@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449]

TheJett1904 up in the video description!

[@TheJett1904]

@@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449 sorry. Don't see any links there. 😟

[@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449]

@@TheJett1904 Thanks for pointing that out! Just added apparently there was an error!

[@TheJett1904]

@@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449 no problem. 😁 Great video btw. Really enjoyed it.

[@jackthefarmer08]

... and that is doctor's anger! 😄

[@serdartokel1687]

Hello there Thanks for the video and all info provided. I like to advise you to check the amazing work of Prof Dr Fahri Işık and his wife Havva İskan Işık. They have been working very hard on the site of Patara. Which was the kind of capital city of the Lukka and Luwians . They have been working on the whole archeological excavation and search mainly based in and around Patara. Surely you will find lots of facts and founds . Best wishes

[@DanKeshet]

Did a double take when he described "Paris" as obviously existing in history until I understood he meant the city not the Prince of Troy.

[@nigelwilliams5653]

I like him thou, one of the fairest man I've heard?

[@mysticdragonwolf89]

I thought they were in the same room.....

[@konstantinosalbanakis4022]

So Greeks got united to fight a common enemy (stronger than them? Maybe, considering they had already prevailed over other cultures) and after much much struggle they finally win and instead of becoming stronger what happens? They fight each other, get selfdestructed and collapse for centuries! 😅 Ok the pattern is so typical and so ongoing for millenniums that this theory makes sense!

[@deanfirnatine7814]

Nothing wrong with glorifying ancient European Cultures, China does theirs as does India, Egypt etc. Why are we the only ones not allowed to be proud of our history? It seems that viewpoint has a political and ideological basis

[@ArturdeSousaRocha]

I wouldn't dismiss Odysseus' journeys right away. He and his crew may be an insight into the Sea Peoples.

[@BalkanCrusader]

Nah..Trojan war must have been earlier than that.. Odysseus supposedly wandered through Mediteranean,but Homer doesn't mention armies and pirates with the wives and children attacking eastern Mediteranean empires..

[@kamdavulu3657]

Western and Greek nationalism and its Archeologists ignored and manipulated the realities in Anatolian lands and its history most probably in order not to give any share to Turkey which is mainly a muslim country. Thanks to Luwians and other civilizations existed in Anatolia and the excavations for the last 40 years showed that there are some other cultures and civilizations different from Hellenistic civilizations. For centuries Western historians and archeologists claimed the history through their unfair false western perspective, but truths always show themselves sooner or later. with these new discoveries history will be re-written.

[@jameswells554]

An Dendrochronologist found evidence of what amounts to a mini ice age circa 1200 to 1100 BC in oak stumps found in a bog in Ireland.

[@jameswells554]

@Jeremy Kirkpatrick Michael Bailey

[@jameswells554]

@Jeremy Kirkpatrick cheers!

[@sirrathersplendid4825]

It would make sense. In winter the Hittite capital Boghazkoy is a cold windswept place and often sees snow. A mini ice age could easily have made it uninhabitable.

[@jameswells554]

@Jeremy Kirkpatrick there is strong evidence of civil conflict at Hattusa during its slide into irrelevancy.

[@jameswells554]

@Jeremy Kirkpatrick other than the datable evidence from the burning of the Palace, and the documented record of the Civil War they had? Yes, they had a sharp decline due to either climate, or a shift in commercial lanes, and that led to the ultimate fall due to internal strife.

[@anthonysiebenthaler682]

I don't think that the main problem is Eurocentricism, but rather Abrahamic. Everything outside of that tradition is forced into the margins. The irony is that much of the earliest stuff now stuck in the Bible and associated with the people of the Bible belongs to the other, more ancient societies being discussed above. Just watching the video on the Israelite religion of yours.

[@aaronarchermonster8539]

that music has to go

[@Clover12346]

I wonder if genetic study could be useful

[@SaxonChronicles]

at 21:00 a country's leader going overseas to fight wars and leaving behind someone in charge.. LOL. Maybe Napoleon and Napoleon III did it, we sure don't have that to worry about that in our lifetime and going forward

[@johnblount6341]

Megalithic stoneworking technology disappeared with the bronze age collapse.

[@nukelaloosh4795]

great nick, pls just get rid of the musical interludes in future vids

[@chriswood3370]

The oddessy is from an earlier Egyptian story of a circumnavigation of the globe. Egyptian heiroglyphs are found in Australia.

[@user-vj5rz8hm4c]

وعند امريكان وعراقيين وجيش صدامي امريكي صدري سلامي دعوي وخميني وبغداد وعجاهز وعجاجي وكاضمين وجوادين وشيعه برازخ وبرز وسنه ورا جو واغلفه جو وبصر @ورسلها واولي امرها وسيداتها نشالات وعلاسات وحراميات @ وجهنميات وعلاسات @@@@@@@@@@سلب وزحزح زحف ونهب واغتصابات وسرقات عبر الة زمن وسفر عبر زمن @ واستهزاء وبطر ورجوع لعاد وتبع واصحاب نوح وادم وحواء وسلب واغتصابات ميتات وتعجيل وتعجيج وعجل وتهيج وسرقات وتمشيط وزحف وتطفل وعبث وتحرشات @@@@@@@@وتلاعب ب موتى ومعذبات وب معذبين @@@@@@@@@@

[@lucastop5660]

Im an native of Anatolia, love the Europe. now its about time the studies on the real Ancient history be learned insted of the Ancient Greeks,Romans who were just savages,slave Civilizations that the Victorian British,Frog Imperialist who were looking to legimit there Empirial,racist,Slavery driven economies to justify to the past,move on to Luwian,Anatolian Studies.

[@izmirizmir35]

Modern civilization actually started from anatolia and mesopotamia.......

[@shapasha6266]

Luwians or sound\Lovi\ too are Kurdish now!!! Those employers as Hittites Sobarto Gouti Babylon Media Hurries Amazons and more all of theme kurdish people now!! They dont mantion kurdish name because political UN case..

[@user-vj5rz8hm4c]

وتصير تلاعب ب كتب وصب يات ودينو نيان ودوا وين وتلاعي ب وتلاعب ب مقدرات وب الهة وب الة رجوع للبدايه ورجوع للامم بدايه ونساء بدايه وعجاج واهربه وامطار وعواصف وبراكين بدايه @ من خلال جيش امريكي ب عراق وصداميه ونازيه وصدريه وهتلر ورا غلاف جوي وجيش ال سكس المهدي ال سلام ال مدعش وقادسيه وهتلر ووورا برازخ واغلفه جو ونضر وبصر ورسلها واسباطها وسيداتها ومريم وفاطمه وام بنين واسيا واختل واحتال واحتلال روسيا وفلسطين واخت موسي وهارون عربي غربي ومن خلال تشغيل عجز وخوارق وكرامات وكن فيكون اهالي مدينه صدر وتكريت وعراقيين وعراقيات ورا جو @@@@@@@@@@

[@KidsCalledmeMrGlass]

The unfortunate thing is that we will never know the truth of what happened back then because of all of the lies and destruction done by all the eurocentric "archeologists,scientists & religious scholars".

[@sirrathersplendid4825]

KidsCalledme Mr.Glass - They were people of their time. Without them there would be no archeology at all today, only grave robbing and melting for gold. Sure they weren’t perfect, but we all stand on their shoulders seeing further thanks them.

[@KidsCalledmeMrGlass]

@@sirrathersplendid4825 umm, "grave robbing & gold smelting" then lying about what they stole & smelted is exactly why we'll never know the truth about who was REALLY living there and what REALLY happened to them. "Archeology" today is based mostly off of the bullshit those thieving liars put on paper hundreds of years ago.

[@livioangel]

the war of troy was the end of hero and the end of matriarchy in the mediterraneo

[@watermelonlalala]

14:28 Leave the term "Trojan War" alone. What he is saying = When we hear the term WWI, we mean the Depression and WWII and the Cold War. In fact, you could say WWI means from the Communist Manifesto to the election of Bernie Sanders as president. Yes, that was WWI.

[@Lion-rs2qy]

When did the HELLENES loose their knowledge of Writing in the bronze age for 400 years . What are you talking about sir . Under OTTAMAN AD But still didn't loose any knowledge of Writing Skills .

[@covenawhite4855]

They invented a new writing system. The first writing system is linear A then Linear B. Lastly it was Greek alphabet reinvented

[@soik1401]

Before the Iron Age. Linear B writing was lost.

[@Lion-rs2qy]

@@soik1401 No it wasn't lost , but reinvented , modifications were made . To say it was lost is to say it's disappeared, vanished never to be seen again . That's not the case here And it was reinvented Modified Thankyou .

[@EasternOrthodox101]

Had you people just followed the Bible, you would know that the Luwians are the Lydians, and their original name is Lud (son of Shem). They were not of European origin, they were Semites. In the Bible, Pul & Lud who draw the bow = Pala & Luwia, which were some of the sea peoples. Pul = Hul = Hurrians.

[@radzewicz]

First rule of interviewing an expert guest: KEEP YOUR OWN MOUTH SHUT! Especially this guy, he is such a boring, babbling palaverer.

[@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449]

radzewicz I don’t think you understand how interviews work kiddo ;)

[@theoorval5140]

Totally boring, having to watch the two of them!

[@ozzzz9328]

Turkish ancestry mate

[@muhtar.458]

No