Let's Talk About Shin Megami Tensei V's Story | STORY ANALYSIS

[@Thebluedud]

I liked a lot of the story's ideas, but it definitely didn't hold my interest all that much. My main complaint is that I think the whole Nahobino gold-rush for the throne should have started way earlier. The gameplay definitely made up for it, though. I really enjoyed the amount of freedom I had to just run around, hunt for items and quests, and just build up my party the way I wanted in preparation for the next boss.

[@Carforinus]

Big agree there, i found myself planning my next route all game then finally finishing the game (and confusing the chaos and neutral ending meaning i couldnt get the secret ending) then shelving it once i beat it, ill come back to it when i fancy but it aint right now

[@dietwater2155]

Huge agree, throne thing should of started earlier, would of given more time to develop the different routes and characters.

[@valletas]

I wished we had see more nahobinos I was kinda disapointed how none of the gods of bethel got a nahobino form other then the main characters I would love to see zeus and odin get a nahobino form

[@SaiyanGamer95]

I found myself thinking that, too. It was a bit of a whiplash to have "Well, God's truly gone, so we don't need to be loyal to Bethel" and we're suddenly at the final Da'at area. I sort of felt the game was somewhat... short. Like, I thought the Abdiel fight was the midway point of the story, so I was surprised to see the final area leading to the temple. I think one or two more areas would have helped.

[@GLA55MA5TER]

The main issue with smt v's story is that its minimal approach does nothing to enhance the story in any aspect. It feels like it was a minimalistic story either just because of rewrites, or because nocturne did it too. However, nocturne's minimalistic story was fitting because one of nocturne's biggest central themes is isolation. Along with that, there's a logical reason as to why there's so little cutscenes in nocturne, mainly because all of the characters are isolated from each other. Basically every time you encounter a main character in nocturne there's a cutscene. It just doesn't happen that much because every character is off doing their own thing alone, which is a big part of their development. Smt V on the other hand doesn't really have that same type of focus on isolation. There's plenty of times when a major character is with you, but there's no impactful moment or cutscene to accompany it. You travel through the whole 2nd area with Tao and yet you don't really get many moments with her. There's also other times when major characters are just standing around in the open areas as NPCs that you can talk to, which not only weakens their importance, since their presence isn't always accompanied by a cutscene, but it also gives the feeling that they aren't really doing much when you aren't with them. In nocturne the vortex world felt very dynamic since NPC dialogue was constantly changing, and major characters were never relegated to a talk-able NPC role like. It gave the feeling like they were actually going on their own journeys while you were going on your own journey. Another big issue with Smt V's approach to minimalism is its inconsistency. The amount of character development that each major character gets is all over the place. Some characters like Yuzuru and his sister get side-lined for extensive amounts of time for no real reason, while others like dazai and yakumo get actual attention. It's hard to belive the minimalisim is intentional and actually benefits the story when theres so little consistency. In nocturne though, basically every major character gets an equal amount of screen time. They go through similar beats to their respective stories and fulfill their roles by the end. It doesn't feel like any of the characters got the short end of the stick for no good reason. Smt V's ideas are certainly interesting on paper, but nearly nothing about the execution compliments that and instead hinders it. The more I think about smt V's story the more confused i get, which is a complete opposite case for nocturne, where the more i think about that game, the more i feel like i understand it and can appreciate the different layers of the story.

[@PenguinsAreColdish]

sounds like you want a movie

[@Antasma1]

When I think of V’s story, it felt less like they wanted to be like Nocturne and more like they didn’t have time to write in a lot of things

[@Sephiroth69829]

@@Antasma1 That's probably what happened The pandemic Rumors of issues with a "original writter"(there is no proof about this tho) The oficial Atlus post declaring how challenging was the development The fans pressure to new info New and complex engine Way too ambitious for a Switch exclusive

[@markmorrison5829]

One problem I have with the story that no one ever bring up is Tao. Yuzuru and Miyazu don't have much character, but you can say they didn't have enough screen time for that. Tao however she spend almost half the game with you even as a party member at the final act, but she stay in the background unless the story needs her. Heck yuzuru and Dazai don't react or acknowledge being alive at the temple like she was not even there. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Tao was treated worse than yuzuru because she had more screen time than him, but has a little to no presence.

[@Fermin-hw5pd]

Perhaps she only appeared as visible to the protagonist knowing he was going to succeed in reaching the Throne, as the goddess of creation and such

[@markmorrison5829]

@@Fermin-hw5pd she join in fights, so maybe demons can only her. It's good idea, but I still think they didn't write her well enough.

[@Sephiroth69829]

I was fine with Tao, i think that If they confirmed her being Amaterasu would be more interesting tho I don't really feel like she should do more than what she did in the plot My main issue is how Nuwa and Yuzuru were kind of lackluster (i think that Nuwa is a better character overall, but it's really sad that they made the hottest Smt character have almost no screentime and a convoluted ideology with Yakumo)

[@daviejones8862]

I actually thought Abdiel was the best written demon alignment head because her story was ironically very human. Hear me out: starting with stuff that is confirmed in the game: Abdiel was effectively a captain or a lieutenant at the time of the Great War. When God died, she suddenly became the de facto head of heaven’s forces she then went on to head Bethel and kept the the other gods in check by continuing the war with the chaos faction. After the death of Arioch she called a summit to discuss Bethel’s next actions and attacks the Nahobino but only after being egged on by the other gods. Only after being pressed by Dazai, who she always knew was her other half, does she agree to become a Nahobino. So my take on Abdiel as a character: Abdiel is effectively someone who had the weight of the world shoved on her and is trying to just get by despite knowing that it’s all falling apart. Abdiel was never meant to lead her name literally means: “Servant of L” she’s B-type personality who is put into a role that requires her to remain looking strong and being able to boss around gods who are far stronger than her. The archangels she served under are dead, the god she served dutifully: HER PURPOSE FOR EXISTING…is dead…but before he died, god made a miracle to save Tokyo and even if it was only for selfish reasons, he did care about humanity…so she takes it upon herself to keep up the lie and wage a war that is effectively over (Arioch is not really making any big moves, he and his forces are mostly just sitting on their asses)…because she has to have some kind of purpose to hold on to: even if it’s a lie. She has to hold on to something: not just for her sake but also for her allies who are just as lost as her (and certain side quests reveal that even in the forces of heaven there are those who look down on her and even go behind her back). And the thing is, while she certainly is arrogant: she’s not evil. She and Bethel really do protect humanity. She even listens to Tao’s request and while she is uncomfortable with your presence as a Nahobino and threatens you…she only attacks once the other members of Bethel start to doubt her. Her attack isn’t a murder attempt: it’s a desperate attempt to keep the order that is hanging by a thread. …and then it all comes crashing down…and even then she doesn’t immediately try and take Dazai into herself. While the obvious answer would be “oh well it would be a sin” I propose this: she didn’t want to admit the truth: she’s tired of carrying this weight and responsibility that her new position brings. She didn’t want to drag a human and make them join her in carrying that impossible burden. Abdiel doesn’t want god back as a form of atonement: she wants him back because she is so, so tired of being a leader when she was meant to serve, so tired of finding the strength to keep others going when she had lost her reason for living a long time ago, even if god’s first act is to destroy her: at least she will have that weight taken from her

[@gsuaveyt]

I really liked the Law side in V because it was less the usual "god is absolute and right etc etc" that we usually see and moreso wanting something else that you can have faith in because neither Abdiel or Dazai really were confident in THEMSELVES

[@Antasma1]

I thought it was actually denial. Legitimately believing God is still alive

[@valletas]

Smt 5 is genuinely the first smt game where i feel like all ending are good outcome for the world Like strange jouney redux ending are really good as well but the new neutral ending kinda pisses on the whole thing since its by far the worst My favorite in 5 is the chaos ending since i belive that demons have just as much of a right to live as humans but i cant say that the other endings arent appealing

[@jaimenavarro41]

Ain't nobody reading all that

[@anonymousalien7417]

​@@jaimenavarro41The fact that people's attention spans nowadays are so short that they can't even read 9 paragraphs is honestly sad lol

[@jeezycreezy4220]

One thing I enjoyed that I've yet to really see any one else mention is the switcharoo pulled on the law and chaos heros. The Law hero is typically a pretty straight edge person, like Atsuta. The chaos hero is usually more free spirited, like Dazai. The beginning of the game plays things as though Atsuta will become the law hero and Dazai will become the chaos hero, then swaps them around in a way that feels mostly natural.

[@manuelcamara6400]

That Divine Powers comparison was so good. The Divine Powers are my favorite antagonist group in the game. The God Battle Royale at the end was probably my favorite moment in the series. Not just the boss fights, but all the side quest where there's other gods vying for control.

[@Sephiroth69829]

The God Battle Royale is V's final area? If yes, that was indeed nice and i really liked how the sidequests expanded that world significantly

[@ltb1345]

Yeah, that was my favorite part of the game.

[@haydenjenken1213]

During the whole khonsu quest chain. my entire thought was where is her brother. his sister is supposedly dieing. "despite there being nothing to hint or show this, its just dropped on you in the middle of a conversation like it was nothing." it could have improved his motivation for changing the world. maybe he could have been hesitant to do it. and this was the plot device that could have changed his opinion.

[@BlackfangDragon]

Yuzuru is essentially letting himself be guided by Koshimizu. You can tell he’s been instilling him to believe in him and taking to him in secret. It’s a shame they don’t show it, because we know Koshimizu has him go meet him in his office in private. Would it been a vast improvement if they showed this? ABSOLUTELY. The only thing you know for sure is that Koshimizu does care about him, as when they die on their own route, he tries to shield Yuzuru but fails. Similar to Shohei save for him protecting Nuwa.

[@BlackfangDragon]

Also God’s Order was doomed to fail because of God himself, since him and the Angels allowing the Conception as part of his grand design lead to Armageddon. So the flaws of Chaos were there because of a misguided dictator who pretends to be infallible. You can see it like that how someone like Abdiel and Dazai delusions and fanaticism would lead to a similar outcome. As for the ending of Chaos, it mixes both the good and bad of politicians, considering how them coming together to achieve many great things happens just as much as those with different ideologies come into conflict.

[@Antasma1]

Ironic for the chaos hero

[@Sephiroth69829]

I think that Yuzuru was purposefully a dull guy that blindly follows Koshimitzu in a similiar way to how a average Japanese would follow the Prime Minister in that situation, and this would be fine If they fleshed out more Koshimitzu and showed how Yuzuru is just a nobody that agrees with him because he just think that is doing what is better

[@Antasma1]

@@Sephiroth69829 Like I said, which is something you’d expect from the Law hero

[@Sephiroth69829]

@@Antasma1 honestly, i like it because i'm law biased So seeing a Law hero not being a robot that mindlessly follows his leader is a refreshing take on the alligment, and i think that Koshimitzu is by nature a chaotic neutral character, and less chaotic overall I think that the only chaotic thing is how his world will probably become e gods war anarchy where humans are killed like ants in wars between gods, and Yuzuru's whole thing is just protecting Tokyo Honestly, i feel like Dazai is a Chaos Hero that is Law alligned and Yuzuru is a Law hero that is chaos alligned because of their motivations and goals Yakumo/Nuwa are at best neutral chaotic, but since Atlus's mentality is (Humans = good) their ending isn't considered chaos but neutral

[@ancientspark375]

Khonsu's sidequest does have at least some thematic ties to the Secret Ending. It's the notion of giving up the otherworldly in favor of the aspects of humanity, even if that aspect is mortality. In that sense, both Khonsu's sidequest and the Secret Ending have that rejection of gods and demons alike. It's just the thematic tie is very murkily written, both because of weak characterization in Khonsu's sidequest and its relevant characters, and that the tie feels like it gets confused in the midst of the Mandala System and its implications. I think what is supposed to be implied by the Secret Ending in this way is that even if humanity says they reject gods, it probably doesn't change anything. In a way, the notions of humanity and the divine are linked eternally just by themes of faith, salvation, and knowledge - there might not be any true way to deny faith itself. The idea you destroy demons to allow humanity to be free is, itself, an act of divinity and thus God *must* exist; there will never be any freedom for humanity from the rule of gods because of that hypocrisy. No matter what a few words that a sick kid can claim to Khonsu. But, that thematic tie is clumsy, because the idea of an unchanging reincarnation cycle is only linked to the divine by a secondary tie to God; the reincarnation cycle instead is more characterized as an unflinching, non-divine entity like the Mandala System, and it's never made clear why humanity's acceptance or rejection would have even a theoretical or thematic effect on that Mandala System (and thus, divine law). The Mandala System just sort of....exists, with no notion of it being part of religion or faith or whatever - there are a lot of subtle nods at this being the case, but they're subtle to the point that the tie basically doesn't exist unless you are extremely familiar with religions where reincarnation is a major theme.

[@Antasma1]

The Mandala System isn’t tied to anything, Lucifer was just saying history was bound to repeat itself. By receiving his knowledge, Nahobino will be less likely to be overthrowned

[@Alex-fj1ss]

Sahori’s death scene was the one scene in this game that made me go “wow, now THAT was something else”. Definitely my favorite scene in the entire game, it’s just perfect

[@athorem]

It's a cool scene, but what's the purpose of the whole lahmu arc narrative wise? Just to establish the concept of a nahobino?

[@Alex-fj1ss]

@@athorem kind of yea, it’s main purpose is to 1) show the true power of the nahobino, the power of creation, and that you are not the only one who can attain this power 2) establish each demon has a human that has their knowledge (since for whatever reason the initial explanation didn’t tell us this from what I remember) 3) Use each of these to set up the foundation for the rest of the plot

[@athorem]

@@Alex-fj1ss Damn, well it took a long time to get to that point... this is probably something that should have been established in the first chapter

[@Alex-fj1ss]

@@athorem it really should have been explained earlier, the plot as a whole never really pulled me in until the bethel summit

[@justaguy2182]

If SMT5’s development actually went smoothly and characterization was more of a focus, I feel SMT5 would have been received so much better. All the hype around it leading up to release would have been earned.

[@OnDavidsBrain]

Here's hoping that Vengeance's new story fixes most of the narrative problems. The gameplay, exploration and customization systems are top tier but the writing needed much more time in the oven and hopefully Vengeance gave the team enough time to fix it.

[@Nalzir]

Looking back at this after the announcement of vengeance really makes me think now.

[@urameshitrev1851]

I feel SMTV's story really would just benefit a lot more from just having more cutscenes with the main cast. Cause I really love some of the concepts in play and it acheives what it sets out to do for the most part, it's just a shame the characterization for the cast is so uneven. Like Dazai and Abdiel I feel are an interesting take from the standard Law allignment. Koshimizu is fairly interesting being almost like Krishna from 4A but with more reasonable methods. Yuzuru does have a bit of stuff going for him, but it's given so little attention that many just won't notice or care. Yakumo & Nuwa going for a more Dark Neutral Take is pretry interesting and make for great rival characters. And the many demons you meet on your journey like Fionn, Amanozako or Khonsu do make the ending a bit more bittersweet. If V ever gets the Maniax Treatment I feel the story could be elivated a lot from it, byt as it's stands it's like a 7/10 in an otherwise 10/10 game in every other aspect lol

[@Fermin-hw5pd]

Ichiro and Abdiel get a fair share of screentime, I can see their ideals and motivations, breaking the law to create a new better one, although some people don't like it, I have heard people calling Abdiel an hypocrite xd I also like Koshimizu, he was originally leading Japan with his siblings so he knew what it was best for the world Who cares for Yuzuru Also, I would like to see a Nahobino Amaterasu, I wonder how she was

[@stingerredshock3418]

“Story 7/10” None of the characters besides Abdiel and Lucifer display any human sentiment Development for most characters is done in a single cutscene but otherwise nonexistent Some characters are defined by a single trait Every dialogue with Yakumo locks you onto two options of “order is good” and “order is bad”, making both you and him sound completely retarded 7/10 by what fucking standards?

[@warmybear1009]

While re-release or pseudo sequels ala Apocalypse aren't uncommon, apparently V was made by an amalgamation of Etrian Odyssey & the Mainax team. Would be fun to have Khonsu-Ra be a route, ab it more time to flesh things out etc. It's a lengthy game but we could certainly do with a bit more development.

[@Antasma1]

It always was ironic that you get the slay all demons ending by working with benevolent demons

[@Sephiroth69829]

I feel like Smt V will get the Maniax treatment when it eventually gets ported to all plataforms (afther what happened with Persona i'm confident with it) And if everything goes right, we might even get a Maniax Smt V as a DLC for Switch 's Smt V like Nocturne has Maniax as a DLC or get the Maniax for a cheaper price in case you bought Smt V(God, How many times i said this game's name on this comment, pleonasm at its best) Btw, afther the dissapointing gone, looking at more sober always, V's story isn't even that bad, most of problems relies on the chaos reps being nobodies, Nuwa and Yakumo having almost no screentime and True ending 's weird conclusion (i feel like it would automatically be better if Nahobino wasn't a silent protagonist and we had a discussion between him and Aogami, where Aogami convinces him to do that, along with some of your other demon friends too, or at least, add him denying doing that and making a sad face then we would have your demon friends appearing and saying "it's ok bro") But other than that, V story is not one of the worst videogame stories ever like i thought, actually it's kind of decent when you think about only what surrounds the demons and Nahobinos So a Maniax would really just need more screentime to the alligment reps, improved dungeons, a better true ending and more satisfying endings

[@bluesuzaku3229]

My personal problems with the Secret Ending and to an extent the larger narrative of SMT V: 1. It goes against the concept of the whole SMT Franchise, allying onself with Demons to kick ass and procure whatever one's goals are. 2. It somehow makes the Protaganist seem even more brutal and genocidal than the way the God of Law is typically characterized.

[@rouge-ish324]

I always felt like the protagonist had that in him if he's willing to go after the throne of creation

[@1monkey1typewriter]

SMT V’s story is one of those things that make me unsure if it’s a great story that doesn’t hold the player’s hand, and allows the player to fill in the gaps with their imagination, or a mess where you are forced to headcanon to help it make sense. On one hand, Abdiel’s whole character arc is great. She’s trying to keep a crumbing organization together that she was never supposed to be in charge of to begin with (it was actually Michael’s job before he got sealed away) And even though she was mentally cornered into attacking the player at the Bethel summit by the other gods, if you choose the Law ending, she tells you that even though you’re a Nahobino, that there’s something in your soul that sets you apart, and then humbly asks that if you favor God’s order to please protect it. It’s a huge part of why I think the Law ending is the best. On the other hand, you have things like being forced to building relationships with demons to get the ending that has you destroy all of them at the end? Or Lucifer telling you that he’ll meet you beyond heaven and earth , but ditching you without a word if you go for the neutral ending?

[@si-level]

i think smt v story supposed to have throwback from older series. not only we have smt nocturne reference, sahori is just nakajima but woman and without the sci-fi stuff, dazai referencing chaos hero from smt 1, and probably there is smt 2 reference that i don;t know(not finished it). smt sj with bethel and military base? but fails because development hell or something.

[@1monkey1typewriter]

@@si-level That's definitely part of it.

[@sonicsucks2961]

About your last point, Lucifer doesn't need you to kill him if you destroy the throne becasue you can't create new worlds anymore afterwards so he has no point in fighting you.

[@1monkey1typewriter]

@@sonicsucks2961 Yet he says he’ll meet you before you choose between neutral and true neutral endings. And since Nuwa doesn’t even tell you about their true goal until AFTER Lucifer tells you that he’s going to meet you, it stands to reason that Lucifer was speaking to your desire for the regular neutral ending.

[@matteste]

@@si-level It's no throwback at all. It is only a meme that SMT is somehow story bare based simply on Nocturne. Apart from that game, SMT was actually known to be pretty story heavy when compared to its contemporaries at the time, even back in the SNES days.

[@IfYouInsist]

Did we all find this today after the announcement? Super ironic bit at the end of the video now.

[@Hexaderp]

He is a prophet 😂

[@XIIIHearts]

I still don’t like that the secret ending is all about making a world where gods and demons don’t exist even though to get it you have to, mostly, help specific demons with their own problems, obvious exception here is Shiva. What is the point of helping Amanozako, Fionn, and getting Khonsu to see reason when it leads to an ending where they don’t exist?

[@RangerRobin0404]

That was one of my issues too. "Congratulations guys. I've bonded with you and you've put your lives on the line for me. I reward you with nonexistentence." Sadder? They didn't even see it coming. I doubt they'd agree to join you if you told them you were gonna erase them.

[@Sephiroth69829]

@@RangerRobin0404 the ending would automatically be better if afther Nahobino making the sad "No Bro, i don't want to do It" Aogami replied with "It's okay young man" then the other demon friends would appear and honestly i feel like Amanozako, Konshu and Fionn would totally be fine with it since they cleary love humanity Then the handshake scene would appear and boom, True Ending stays the same

[@RangerRobin0404]

@@Sephiroth69829 I'm just saying: even destroying the throne, we still basically become some god out of time. You're telling me we don't have the power to vanish all the angels and demons except our crew??

[@Sephiroth69829]

@@RangerRobin0404 that's one of the problems that come with a ending where you become God But i would say that even the trustworthy demons aren't really guaranteed that they will stay good, or at least, i would say that in V's world they need magatsuhi or idk And since i always treated that ending as "Nahobino transforms Smt world into real world" maybe demons would not have really a source of life in It Honestly you're right, but i'm trying to a find a gap to justify that end

[@MollyTheCat117]

i hope you see this comment Macca because i am SO glad someone noticed just how beautiful Sahori’s death was, after watching it i saved it to my phone so I could watch again, it really isn’t glamorized and I love how sad and how much like death it feels, once it happens you’re gone forever, and just that slow stop of music, the oddly serene place in hell is beautiful to me. That’s one of the most memorable gaming scenes for me ever and I’m glad you pointed it out

[@Fermin-hw5pd]

I was playing the game with my sister for the first hours, so after seeing Sahori's death scene she screamed xd She probably thought the protagonist turned evil or something, but yes, at the end he did the best, because sooner or later, she would feel guilty for what she did (or not, actually)

[@ltb1345]

Well technically she's not gone forever in True Neutral.

[@RubyChiang]

@@ltb1345 yeah, but it's still the same Sahori. Not much seemed to have changed for her.

[@cypheru5]

Sahori's death scene is definitely the best moment in the game. It was mystic and chaotic, filled with different emotions in the beginning, then it hits you with this scene of waking cruelty.

[@aquano1972]

I agree completely that V does have its moments, especially with Abdiel and Dazai. And Yuzuru is just indefensibly nonexistent lol. Great video

[@bluegrave4376]

People say that nocturne's characters didn't have a lot of development but I think V has even less except for Dazai. The majority of the characters are just there to represent their respective alignment and we barely get a glimpse into why they do what they do. I do think the side stories were better than in previous entries at least

[@Fermin-hw5pd]

Oh yeah, I think so For Chiaki and Isamu you get to see their demonic transformation, although you don't see much what happens before, you get their view on the world around them (Hikawa and Yuko had it planned before, so they just tell you) But here? At least you see what drives Ichiro into it, Yuzuru does it because he likes to (not really, but going "I will protect Tokyo" until the end doesn't help), Yakumo has a point too, but half of his belief is Chaos, really funny

[@Sephiroth69829]

@@Fermin-hw5pd The problem with Neutal is the true ending's existence and how Yakumo is basically a generic chaos rep I think that a more interesting take would be him and Nuwa cleaning up the world from useless and incapable humans and just leaving the ones capable of fighting in a war against all demons untill all of them were dead with Nahobino as the leader It would be similiar to one of Doom Eternal's DLCs and SJR neutral ending, but hey, that's actually the kind of power fantasy bs that Atlus loves to do I think that Yuzuru being a nobody would be better if the game actually showed how he being a nobody is intentional, basically showing him as some kind of "robot" that just agrees with Koshimitzu and wants ro save Tokyo, then they could flesh out more Koshimitzu himself, making at least before fighting him, he start an monologue and then becoming a Nahobino and If you joined him he would start some kind of monologue too

[@melansmt8173]

The only few moments in the game that genuinely stood out to me was sahori being possessed by lahmu into killing her bullies, Dazai going from highly insecure loser to Vergil w/teleportation abilities, and the demon summit where everyone turned on each other in their pursuit of God hood. The game's pacing constantly goes back and forth between being really engaging and being really slow, uneventful, and boring for a majority of the game. The characters were either rushed with their arcs, or extremely under utilized (Tao, Miyazu and her brother atsuta, amanozako, khonsu, etc)

[@chrisdaughen5257]

I thought Dazai's transformation was too abrupt. The story does make it clear why he would go down the order path (by him simping for Abdiel's guidance), but it's not enough for him to build up any contempt for the nature of chaos. So when he goes "Vergil" he looks like he's just doing the "fake it until you make it" approach which apparently doesn't work since he's always the first to go in the final boss gauntlet (whether as an ally or enemy).

[@Sephiroth69829]

Amanozako really didn't need more than what they gave to her(did you played her side questline?) She's basically a mascot

[@Sephiroth69829]

@@chrisdaughen5257 Dazai's transformation would be nice if the cutscene wasn't so cringeworthy and if Atlus didn't had a historic of making fun of Law

[@illuminoeye_gaming]

and putting sahori to rest made me sad too

[@beepbeepheckle]

30:21 well. we’re getting that rerelease! wonder if it’ll be any better.

[@jacobwashington7658]

Can't wait for the new story!

[@fartoplata308]

One thing for sure, I'm totally confused by the game's messaging. On one hand they went for the minimalist philosophical high ideas direction, but temporarily zoomed in on Sahori's story, then zoomed back out. That disjointedness, plus the odd combo of telling high philosophy through generic tropey characters, confused me and I didn't know how to look at what was going on. Idk, I won't ever say it's bad, I just hope in time it ages like wine and I understand it better.

[@legodawg2001]

I wanna write about reconstructing SMTV’s story, but I think the game could’ve had a major theme of human temptation. The Garden of Eden and Paradise Lost are both motifs that are used throughout the game to explore human desire and weakness. Dazai acting as a surrogate Lucifer to Abdiel, each of the gods choosing to be selfish and going with their own impulses. The entire bullying subplot. The game would make an argument that humanity is actually a very weak species, and it’s up to the player to decide how they want humanity to fit in the world at large, or even if they have a place at all. I mean Bethel kills all the demons (acting as a weird surrogate to Nocturne’s killing of the Messians at the beginning) but that almost Solves nothing. That could be the point. To that end there would be several small tweaks I would make to the story. I would give Khonsu a human form, and have him show up as Miyazu’s caretaker/love interest, so when he appears later in the game, you make a connection back to the start (since Yuzuru is already a part of Bethel). I would focus more on angel politics, and have a bunch of angels lament the fall of Michael, in order to give further support that Abdiel is holding Bethel together by a thread. I think Bethel in general should be introduced much earlier, and give us time to see each faction of Bethel in the hunt against the demon king. I would also like more discussion about Arioch, and maybe a reaction that he wasn’t Lucifer from some of the members. I think the bullying subplot could be moved earlier to make room for more Bethel politics, maybe even being a better area 1 boss than Nuwa was, but I could see that hurting Tao’s character development. I need to think on that part. In general, the game has some of the best endings in the series, but lacks the story to back it up, which is like the total opposite of SMTIV in my eyes. The game is backloaded, so to fix that they should bring it forward and have the Bethel politics cover more of the plot. Heck, they could add deity specific endings, for Odin and Shiva and Zeus, since at the conference they all have different ideals about the fate of the world. They would be like Nocturne’s reasons. It’s a lot of jumbled ideas, but there is a LOT of good stuff here, it’s just so diluted and poorly paced that it ruins any thematic impact the story could have

[@Sephiroth69829]

That's interesting V indeed has better endings than IV which is basically Law is good If you think like me and thinks that being purified and living on a peaceful heaven without humanity's evil is good at the price of genocide and rejecting what makes humanity unique, which in my opinion is not bad but it's basically the same law plot as most of the other games and Merkabah it's show as a jerk all the time, in general they want people to say "Law = trash" Then you have Chaos that's also generic chaos ending and extremist trash, also bad Then they shovel in your face that neutral is good, you get the waifu, no genocide and everyone is friends now, you're the cool messiah and shit V's endings are actually nuanced and honestly, all of them (with the exception of Yakumo Neutral ending) are reasonable in some ways, but unlike IV who has an amazing story, the story is actually barebones and lackluster in many parts

[@althalosthedancemachine7764]

I love the bones of the story. There’s a lot of potential but not a lot of meat to it. The biggest gripe I have is with Aogami. I feel that he is severely underutilized as a character. He’s your literal other half and yet plays such a small role. It felt like he was intended to be a sponge that absorbed the actions that you take and thing you say and that’d effect him in some way later down the line but it went nowhere. He doesn’t even pipe up when his brother dies. The story is full of similar things. Great foundations with nothing built on them. I love the game but with a stronger more in depth narrative it could’ve become even greater.

[@haruokumura4271]

There's a conversation you have with Dazai in the middle of the 3rd area where he asks you your opinion on Koshimizu and he'll either agree or disagree with your statement before basically saying Abdiel is awesome and I feel like a scene like that for Yuzuru would've been swell , either with the player one on one or with Dazai where he basically goes "Yeah Abdiel sucks" What's his opinion on Abdiel as the leader of Bethel? Does he see her as incompetent compared to Koshimizu? We don't know

[@lostboymasx]

Labeling these routes as Law, Chaos, and Neutral is just brain rot from prior SMT Players. The true titles should be the Monotheism, Polytheism, and Atheism routes since the theme is based on restructuring religious hierarchies for effective governance. Those themes were good because they're relevant in real life. Also you called them making a later rerelease with a new girl LOL. I'm commenting here on 2/23/24 after SMT V Vengeance was just announced. I'm hoping that they give all of the old characters more development but it seems like they're just throwing in more feminine characters and demons. Very unvoiced opinion I wished the whole time playing that the main character used the Demon Summoning Program like the rest of the cast instead of being the alienated "Nahobino." Would have given the MC a reason to have more connections with them. Also would have been way spicier to have electronic UI like SMT 4 did. Aogami had the potential to be interesting if he'd been something more like an AI spawned demon, or a digitized human consciousness. Or originally human with his brother. The God plot with Aogami and Bro was a bit off putting, but I'm not Japanese so those tales don't connect with me as much.

[@pqulxv3810]

What about Goto? He just seems like he should've been a hell of a lot more important and then he just ramdonly shows up here and there and then.... nothing, just nothing... he's all like I'm here to observe the new god or whatever ..

[@ephemeralbro]

Because that's exactly his purpose?

[@daviejones8862]

In regards to the Khonsu plot and the developer comments: I do wonder if the Nahobino system was going to be more explored since it really feels like there were going to be more Nahobino so more relatable themes could be explored but it got axed at some point and instead became the more standard allignment fight. It just felt so weird that while it’s brought up and demons even kidnap quite a few humans, we only have five Nahobino in the end and aside from the MC, three are allignment bosses. Like I could see an alternate game where you have side quests and main quests dealing with running into demons and students trying to becomes Nahobino to deal with more mundane problems

[@Fermin-hw5pd]

I have seen people modding the Nahobinos into their teams, shoot I want that too...

[@fruit4evr]

Yes! I think Nahobinos are such an interesting concept and I wish we got a Sahori/Weird Octopus Demon one I haven’t played the game (I need to play it eventually) but I find it interesting how it’s mentioned that a number of humans are taken but are (I’m assuming) never seen? Or heard of again, I definitely think they had plans for more nahobinos, or at least I hope they did

[@ltb1345]

@@Fermin-hw5pd I wish they were actually playable, without mods.

[@klaus.sfc01official30]

30:26 well uhhh that didn't age well xD

[@someclevername8167]

And I’m so glad it didn’t lmao

[@ursakumaluna]

Don't think I've forgotten what you said about the enhanced port story coverage

[@InkWavve]

The story, while passable, is unequivocally disjointed and anemic. "Minimalist" storytelling and simply "incomplete" storytelling are different things, and to claim that SMT V "goes back to the minimalist roots of the franchise" is nothing more than advertising that you have a poor eye for narratives.

[@808voo]

Wonderful video Macca! I've been thinking about this game's narrative nonstop for the past few months so I really appreciate this video! I got some more stuff on my mind with the themes of the game that I wanna talk about rq Mandala System: For me, the Mandala System is a really cool concept executed in some pretty neat and subtle ways. Throughout the entire game, it's *very* subtly hinting towards Mandala, which in Sanskrit means Circle. Multiple elements in the game such as the UI containing many, *many* uses of Circles, and the official track titles of the game alluding to Mandala. The very first song you hear upon starting a new game is titled "Annulus", which is described as a *ring* shaped object. The track "Spiral" which plays during the cutscene with the Tree of Knowledge, further alludes to Mandala. Generally, Mandala represents the spiritual journey of guidance, but similar to how V flips Paradise Lost, I see a similar thing happening to Mandala. Also, that spiritual guidance thing goes into my next topic I wanna discuss :) Brevity of Man's Life: At the beginning of the game, there is a quote from "The Manyoshu" talking about the Brevity of Man's Life, and how thinking about it makes makes you indifferent to worldly things. I think in a lot of ways, the game can be seen as losing your humanity to claim godhood. As you go along your journey of Godhood, you begin to lose your humanity as you see the fate of Tokyo, Sahori, etc. When you realize that Da'at is the real tokyo, and that Assiah is the fake tokyo that you've been living in, you start seeing the effect that it has on the people of Tokyo, and how more than likely they will die due to the Shekinah Glory disappearing. When you kill Sahori due to her being taken advantage of by a demon and losing her humanity, it's portrayed in a way that's like "fuck. I have to do this. i'm sorry." and with that, I feel like you become more apathetic when it comes to human life. I think the secret ending really solidifies those themes mentioned above, as when you kill lucifer and claim his knowledge, you become a god and lose ALL humanity. As you watch the world you created without demons, you stare at humanity with indifference. Unlike the humans you're watching, you have the knowledge of Mandala and how the universe works. Unlike the humans you're watching, you've lost your humanity due to that knowledge you gained. You saw, learned, and witnessed the Brevity of Man's Life, and at the end if everything - you feel indifferent. There is so much that I want to add on, but the comment is already long enough and I just wanted to focus on stuff you didn't talk about as much. I've been wanting to make a video talking about V's story and this video has really inspired me to do so. Once again, thank you for the amazing content Mac

[@louish5068]

Please make a video, the points you go over here are amazing and I didnt quite understand that quote from the start of the game but that really brings everything I've been thinking about the game full circle.

[@808voo]

@@louish5068 Thanks for reading! I'll definitely make a video in the future since there is *so* much I want to talk about that I didn't mention. While V's characters, and main plot are flawed in many aspects, there are so many more densely packed themes and amazing narrative moments that make V one of my favorite games in recent memory to think about.

[@sebasturd5501]

I want to talk about the demi-fiend DLC. Sophia requests that you fight him. After a few fiends defeated, she tells you that he was able to escape the Mandala system and be free. After you defeat demi-fiend, she requests that you fight Lucifer and create the new world while keeping the Mandala system intact, accepting the Great Will's design.

[@GoodnightBroadcast]

So after beating SMT V “Canon Of Creation” I feel like the endings should not be called that but instead be called “Theocratic Order” for Abidel and Dazai, “Pantheon of Chaos” for Yuzuru and Hayao, “Anarchy of Mortals” For Nuwa and Yakumo and lastly “Harmony of Humanity” for the secret ending The reason why is because of the meaning behind the names which is 1. Theocratic Order: This ideal centers on allowing God's singular order to prevail, with the world governed by divine will. 2. Pantheon of Chaos: Allowing multiple gods to rule, risking conflict for supremacy. 3. Anarchy of Mortals: This ideal involves destroying all divine throne, resulting in a world where humans must fend for themselves, free from the influence of gods and demons, leading to chaos and conflict. 4. Harmony of Humanity: Similar to the previous ideal, this one also envisions the destruction of divine throne, but leads to a world where humans live in harmony and order, without the presence of gods or demons.

[@driversed388]

4 months late, but(for those interested)the official names are: -Preservation(Law) -Reformation(Chaos) -Human(Neutral) -True Human(True Neutral/Secret)

[@lethargicwizard]

I hope 5 doesn't get a rehash or rerelease, but instead gets the Apocalypse treatment; where it's a sort of sequel that builds on the solid gameplay with better QoL, while fleshing out the story and tying up loose ends in the plot of the original.

[@Poyomini]

Well... About that...

[@SeveringJuan]

I think stories in videogames have two layers: One are the immediate goals that push the story onwards and then there's the long term goal that gives purpose and direction to the story. SMT IV for example doesn't show its long term goal until you reach Tokyo and the clash of the law and chaos forces seem inevitable. In the other hand the immediate goals start from the very begging: passing the Naraku trials and continue up to the last goal: defeating the last god standing in your way SMT V plants seeds of its long term goal (the nahobino, the throne of creation, etc) in first act and then it stops, chapter 2 and 3 are basically just immediate goals that feel directionless because you are only reacting to the forces of chaos instead of YOU, the player, working toward your own goal. Its until the summit that you realize the long term goal of SMT V: Beat the other gods to the punch in this chaotic run for the throne That's why I believe a lot of people either feel that nothing happens in the plot, as you are mostly reacting to what others are doing, or that the plot only picks up in the last chapter, because the long term goal is finally revealed.

[@dotspak]

The first thing I was thinking when Lahmu became part of the story was that I hoped he and sahori would become the main antagonist as a nahobino similar to Krishna. I'm not entirely sure what he would represent throughout the story but imagine if the rushed arc we got in the game was stretched out throughout and we ended up with a major threat with one half being fully ready to carry out whatever plans they had while the other was reluctant until Sahori was fully controlled like in the game and then part of the overall ending of the game was her death scene. I'm not sure if it would have fit with SMT due to the alignments but I think it could have been very cool overall

[@Sephiroth69829]

I don't really like this idea Maybe i would like if the whole Arioch arc was about what you said where Lucifer's ex followers all started to worship Lahmu and try to become Nahobino, that dungeon would basically be a mix between the wind puzzles and some Boss battles that we got, but instead of Arioch as the final Boss, Sahori/Lahmu Nahobino would be Arc 3 final Boss, in this part of the game, Yuzuru would appear in a room where when you enter, a lot of demons would be fallen in the ground and then he would give you a key that he found in one of them (It would be the Final Boss Room Key) making him automatically more important to the plot overall And... That's it, i don't think that Lahmu having a whole divine powers thing would improve the story, even more with IVA making it before

[@ltb1345]

@@Sephiroth69829 I agree. I remember thinking that Lahmu could've been the Demon Lord.

[@pabloescolar_]

I guess it can be interesting if they explored the relationship between the characters more, you just talk to them 2-3 times and then you're supposed to feel something for them at the ending

[@Genethagenius]

I felt that “Nocturne” had more story and character development in its first 3 hours than “SMT V” did in its first 10…

[@ParakeetDSi]

11:55 Funny, given his new battle theme being called "No Hypocrisy"

[@crinjeshet2418]

omg!!!! He foresaw what will be in the rerelease of SMTV

[@tallflipkick]

Honestly I am interested to see more of the lore on V since yeah I was really interested about the interviews on V. And when I saw the claims of tackling issues didnt come to fruition. I was sad. But I am interested in like the lore. Like is V directly after Nocturne (18 years i mean)? Since they mention so much Nocturne related stuff. We can even infer its The Chronicles Nocturne timeline since Mokoi hints at Raidou. And well. Even though it is DLC. Clearly it was intended to be there in the first place since the files were already in the game. And now that line from the Nocturne HD trailer makes sense "Tokyo died. And I was given life." He specifies Tokyo when we assumed the Conception ended the world. And in V. They mention how because of the Conception. God had to remake Tokyo.

[@alsaiduq4363]

It can't directly connected to Nocture because in Nocturne entire world was destroyed while in SMTV only Tokyo was destroyed. Also the fiends say that they came from another world.

[@Pie_The_Man]

V being a sequel to Nocturne can be thrown out the door almost instantly because the point of the TDE is that the world, the Universe, is permentantly destroyed and can never be rebuilt ever again. That's why destroying the Kagutsuchi is such a big trade off for a world without God's interference.

[@Fermin-hw5pd]

I think by the Conception they mean the Armageddon, I think Koshimizu talks about the Conception too, but doesn't really get brought up again, I think

[@lightsinx]

I like Sahori but overall in the story, i rather that entire arc be removed and expand the last section of the game. I found it so interesting that Odin was looking for his Knowledge and Zeus's got killed so he is preventing anyone else from becoming a Nahobino. I rather have more expansion on the gods than some bullied girl.

[@mrperson4542]

On your brief criticism on recent Atlus rereleases, I wonder if the story issues with V could be remedied if they opt to do a sequel somewhat like Apocalypse (while hopefully handled better) instead of just a regular rerelease.

[@skullcandy14785]

I would say yes* since smt 5 is there highest seller ever in the mainline. BUT we got soulhacker2, a possible persona 6 in the background that is still in work or something. I will give it 3 to 4 years for anything official/ teaser of a 5.5 smt

[@mrperson4542]

@@skullcandy14785 I mean, that’s ignoring the fact that Atlus is composed of various teams that all focus on different games. SMT has its own dedicated team, Persona has it’s own dedicated team, and it’s probable that SH2 is outsourced

[@Sephiroth69829]

@@mrperson4542 SH2 it's not even being made by Atlus, but by other developer Smt V will probably come between 2023 and 2024 with multiplatform realease, including (probably) Nintendo 's next console by the time and It will probably be like Nocturne Maniax but adding most of the shit that they couldn't add on V due to development hell

[@ltb1345]

I could imagine a sequel taking place after the "destroy the throne" ending; like, Tao seeks out the new protagonist to rebuild the throne or something. Nahobino would either be an ally or a boss depending on the route you choose. Plus it'd be an easy excuse to reuse maps, since the world would be literally the same after that ending. It also wouldn't invalidate Law and Chaos like Apocalypse did.

[@justanorange2038]

​@@Sephiroth69829Well, look who predicted the future lol

[@pigcatapult]

(disclaimer: this is my favourite SMT game) I feel like you can really tell they ran out of time and/or budget for story and animation in Act 4. Like, it's not *just* that suddenly no-one's models can touch each other after being so tactile in Act 1 and Act 2. The non-secret endings feel *unfinished.* Tsukuyomi doesn't even get a non-Nahobino demon form or any unlocks. Yakumo is the only one whose death scene is more than a couple lines of static-pose dialogue. Yuzuru and Ichiro only argue in the Law version of their confrontation. Your route's reps dying is the only time in the game that Nahobino fusion causes damage to anything, so it's really obvious that [fight scene here] placeholders went unfilled. Khonsu is the only Bethel branch rep to get mouth flaps during the summit cutscene, and he and Miyazu got equal promo and box art focus to the alignment reps, so Team Green must have been important at some point before their route was cut entirely. And the trailers really made it sound like there were going to be routes with meaningful choices! You even have two clear candidates for scenes that could have once been branch points in an earlier draft: When you bring Dazai to Abdiel, MC doesn't just leave; he storms off like he's sick of them. He storms off like he's just rejected an alignment opt-in. Your meeting with Nuwa where she talks about Yakumo and asks if you understand him also feels just like the Reason reps in Nocturne giving you the chance to opt into their cause. Speaking of choices... some of the alignment-related choices make no fucking sense. "Save Sahori" is the Law choice when every angel who talks about it has told you to kill her. In act 4, the Chaos alignment choice in the dueling assassinations quest is to kill a member of the Amatsukami (the game's Chaos faction!) to strengthen the hold of Abrahamic demons over Japan's native gods. To get the Erase All Demonkind ending, you have to consistently show compassion to demons and go through every quest that shoves in your face that demons are people too.

[@SageofStars]

I mean, lets not be gently, this was a direct response to 4/4a giving a greater focus to the plot, and making the gameplay too simple, thanks to the cellphone interface in those games allowing you to effectively raise any demon into a max stated creature with all the best moves by just paying in universe money, really devaluing their individual strengths, but allowing them to get away with making the dungeon crawling an afterthought. Here? They decided to make it semi-open, with the worlds being freely explorable in a way even SMTIII never did, which is a blessing as this is probably even more fun in some ways than the Persona 5 palaces, since the maps are not so start and stop, with the final area map even being fully explorable from the word go thanks to it being divided into sections, rather than being a path. Meanwhile, the story is more of an ideas first, plot second. Like, for instance, the Maiden of the Miracle. She's brought up, she HAS some power, but then she just dies. Oh, and unrelated, the Miracle is now failing. Like, they never draw attention to the fact that those two events SHOULD be linked, and in fact imply at one point they are not, especially given what happens in the lead in to end game. Worse, we're TOLD things about this world that in III and IV/IVa we would have been shown instead. For instance, the working of the group we join at the very start, the ones who are the only ones defending Tokyo? In the earlier games we'd have seen more of them actively fighting, and seen the aftermath of a fight or two, but in V we HEAR about them more than see them actively doing things. And I think that's a shame. Space out the game a bit with some more 'Real World' segments, like, instead of leaping right to the school after the first otherworld area, have us help the group in defending Tokyo. Give us an office building to clear, with an AI partner like the Maiden, who does something for us, rather than getting involved in the fights, like a power boost. Then, after the Maiden dies, we are thrust into a similar situation, maybe even reuse the same location, but now the monsters are tougher, and with a different partner. This time we CAN'T hold back the tide of demons, and they have to do something to deal with it, erasing the whole building, showing off their power, while also demonstrating the organization might not be as pure in its intent as it says. It would also give time to flesh out our partners, Stiff Man and Hatboy, before they become important for the ending. Really show their arcs, as Hatboy is our first, and boosts our attack, but then panics and runs at the end of his section, showing he has growing to do. Meanwhile Stiff Man is there the second time, and his boost is giving us defense, showing a more slow, more methodical approach...that then fails since we can't win.

[@RadiantMantra]

I can't agree with most of the points. The beats on their own are interesting enough but nothing adds up to a grand finale, not Fionn, not Amanozako, not Khonsu, not even Tao which suddenly turned out to be a major character for no reason. It hardly felt like the story was saying anything and once it was over i never thought about it afterwards and what it could've meant the same way I did with other SMT games. Still disappointed with it.

[@Lonewulf321]

what’s your favorite SMT story

[@Fermin-hw5pd]

"I can't agree with most of your points" Isn't what you said what Macca did? Xd

[@Lonewulf321]

@@Fermin-hw5pd yes lol

[@ltb1345]

Tao was the titular "true goddess reincarnated".

[@SasukaRH]

bruh i dont know what ur on about with sahori 😭😭😭 her death scene made me laugh at how undeserved and ridiculously overexadurated it is considering we know absolutely nothing about sahori and her part of the game has nothing to do with the main plot.

[@Alex_Barbosa]

The worst part for me is that during the quest with Khonsu, you can talk to the demons under him and they'll tell you some details about the type of world he wanted to create before he gave up on getting God's throne. And it sounded interesting, like an alternate option to the polytheistic ending. So when I heard there was a secret ending I was sure this would be it. But it wasn't, it had nothing to do with anything. So disappointing. Also, the end where you become an omnipotent God, I'm pretty sure it's trying to imply that you simply became capital G God. Like full on mantling YHVH, putting him back on the throne by becoming him, and that's why the world returned the way it was.

[@chrisdaughen5257]

The things about the True Neutral ending that bothers me is there's no scene of Amanazako and Fion. Their side quests set them up to be loyal friends, but you end up killing them, which makes the MC look like a jerk.

[@RubyChiang]

The way I think about it is that they are alive and serving Nahobino. What Nahobino did was created a world void of demons and gods. I'd like to think that's just a separate world and Nahobino is like the protector of the human only world. Because no way in hell am I going to believe that Fionn, Khonsu and my Mermaid are gone forever!! Especially Fionn!!

[@tandandy272]

SMTV to me has so many good ideas that it really bums me out that these ideas don't get explored as much as they deserve I still enjoy this game like running around the world is quite fun to me I just wish I was able to care more about everything going on in the story

[@JamesCrimson43]

Probably unfounded, but the story's shortcomings do make me worry somewhat it was to set up a Royal/Golden expansion of V.

[@finaldusk1821]

While I don't think it was intentionally bad...your comment seems to have aged surprisingly well.

[@natsurashizero]

Macca and his gift of prophecy

[@sonictelephone1526]

This game has a story? I never noticed. The battle system and demon fusing was fun though

[@Kagetora-]

Yeah, the gameplay was quite good

[@TurnaboutAdam]

I played this when it first came out and I remember absolutely nothing from the story, apparently. Can’t even remember what ending I got. But the recap is nice with Vengeance coming out.

[@Shadowonshadows]

For me, I just thought it was odd from market and from the cutscenes to form this sort of small group of friends you meet and they all get put on the back burner for most of the story until certain plot points in the middle and end of the story.

[@RubyChiang]

It was really hard to decipher whether they were really friends or not. Tao and Nahobino literally were just classmates in the same class yet Tao asked who he was when Atsuta introduced him to her and the Atsuta siblings only know him from time to time. Dazai's first meeting with Nahobino was at the tunnel. Nahobino definitely felt bad for Sahori and it actually shows. If things weren't the way it was, I'd imagine they would be great friends.

[@madyak2108]

People are going to make fun of me for this, but I think the Tokyo was underutilized in SMT5. I was the most engaged during Sahori's arc because there was stakes, drama, and both Tokyo and the Da'at were used to their fullest. After that point, you never really go back to Tokyo. There is dungeon after dungeon, many of which just feel like blocky mazes with the same walls and floors. We're never given enough time to care about the characters or really get to know them for most of the game, so it feels like their roles at the last arc are just necessitated by the story. I would have liked moments where the characters chat, have drama etc in the real world between their adventures in the Da'at. I know some people are going to say "well this isn't a Persona game, that's not what we play SMT for" but this isn't because I want it to be like Persona. I want there to be a point for the player to visit the real world and for me to care when these melodramatic teens tragically die.

[@finaldusk1821]

Similar feeling here, melodrama really felt like the name of this game's story. Sahori's tragic tale, while not bad in a vacuum, had massive tonal whiplash with every scene before and after it, and wasn't helped by the story gaving no time or reason to care about her besides 'generic bullying victim'. It felt like an amateur attempt to recapture the strength of Ann & Shiho's story in Persona 5's first chapter, which was handled FAR better and that is REALLY telling with that story's own flaws. I just didn't have any reason to give a damn about any of SMT V's characters... Like you said, this isn't Persona, but I feel that Persona handles SMT's focus on high-concept world-shaping powers better than SMT itself does, by rooting those incomprehensibly massive stakes in characters and a world the player actually gets involved in, thus building personal investment in the characters' / world's survival.

[@louish5068]

I love the story of V tbh. I think the people that dont like it just didn't pay enough attention tbh. There are issues with some of its pacing and characters but it doesnt detract from the overall plot. I havent been able to stop thinking about it since I started playing it. There is so much depth for a story that doesn't actually tell you a lot. Its story really reminded me of 1 as well, possible because it was the last smt game i played before V came out, and I love the plot of 1. Personally I never liked the plot of nocturne but V is great. Still not as good as IV or SJ but still up there. Great game imo. Also Aogami is great and the secret ending is really sad.

[@radupon]

My biggest problem with the story is that concept wise it's probably one of the better ones in the series but execution wise it literally trips and faceplants. A bit of an odd comparison but if you ever played or heard of Destiny this game reminds me of that, interesting lore and story potential, some amazing world building but just did not hit the mark at all and we're just left to wonder what if.

[@gilded_lady]

Although I think its crap that the Khonsu-Ra was locked away as a missable quest, I do get why it was part of True Neutral: you had to dispatch all possible contenders to the throne and in his base form, Khonsu wasn't. He was only a threat once he was Khonsu Ra. Anyway, my real issue with the story is I felt like the protag was nothing more than an errand boy for Bethel and he didn't even get a say if he wanted to be. What's worse is I felt there were dangling plot threads left abandoned. Like I swear it felt like they were setting Aogami up to spy on protag but that never went anywhere. My pet theory that I have nothing to back this up with is the devs *wanted* this to be a direct sequel to Nocturne then got cold feet and tried to course correct, but then did late enough that they didn't have time to do it right.

[@That_Ifrit_Guy]

I feel like, there's a missing choice, like I was annoyed how to get the secret ending you have to do a bunch of extra side quests and learn more and help out demons and such, potentially aiding and learning to like them. Only to then just just remove them all and undo what you did

[@AnonymousObserver0]

IMO, SMTV's story felt undercooked; the game could have done well to have more scenes focusing on character, alignment, and lore/themes development

[@explosiver]

It relies heavily on Kabalah. Da'at is the abyss, the secret 11th sphere separating the formless and form. It's also where a magus attains divine union, hence the nahobino being born from our protagonist and the protofiend. One purges themselves of their illusions and falsity to become a divine being.

[@keeysOST]

SMT V is like eating a great fucking cake, and then realize you won't be getting more after you finish it. It's a great experience, especially because of the combat and gameplay, but it definitely left me wanting more and a bit disappointed in terms of the plot and characters. I think they took the Apocalypse criticism too far.

[@Sephiroth69829]

Yeah, i think that they took Apocalypse 's criticism as instead of "don't make Smt too much like Persona but with worse characters overall" as "Fans don't like story, and they want a Nocturne -esque plot" and this probably came late into the development considering how much shit os estabilished but not exactly taken advantage of Honestly i enjoyed Apocalypse 's story since i played it as a random Cyberpunk Anime game Smt spin off instead of a mainline, and honestly i wish Smt just starts to make story like IV did and better endings(V endings are actually a improvement over IV in my opinion, other than their awful presentation)

[@jasonblundelldobebussing]

29:37 Sahori was voiced by LYNN? No way!

[@セータン]

SMT V reminded me of how Dark Souls tells its story. Minimal cutscene and let the settings, demons and npc's do the story. So it's a more experience kind of thing than giving it a full blown dialogue like most jrpgs. The human npc's does lack in character but they goes quite storng with the demons side quest.

[@BitchChill]

Haha the dark souls of JRPG's

[@セータン]

@@BitchChill that's not what I meant 😂

[@goleh4044]

Really why the chaos route is chaos, is said in a dialog by Koshimizu, he wants a world where humans have the freedom to choose what they want to worship, but unfortunately this line is not in the English translation for some reason. His way of governing as a PM is giving people freedom, NPCs talk about him being a great leader and respecting people opinion, Dazai once asks you if you think the fact that he asks people's input is good or bad (he does not really do that, a problem of setting up character traits the game never delivers on), the school itself is mostly about personal freedom, so that giving a choice of what uniform to wear is a part of it (according to Doi's comments) I think the basis of the story is very interesting and has great ideas, it just does not deliver that story properly. Which is really disappointing considering a lot was promised when they initially revealed the game. also should mention the book the protagonist is reading isn't paradise lost, it's manyoshu.

[@flynn1545]

I don't think Koshimizu saying humans will be free to worship what they want is Chaos aligned. Koshimizu's alignment is Chaos because he is trying to do what Lucifer wanted to do in the garden of heaven by tempting humans. His goal was to start the war between the myriad gods again. It's the cutscene after the tunnel incident where the protagonist is sent to Da'at this is told. "The Serpent's goal was to revive the war of the myriad gods." - directly taken from the cutscene. The Serpent is Lucifer as we know. And at the end of Koshimizu's route, Goko tells that the gods fought with one another. So that's why his route is considered Chaos.

[@smtandearthboundsuck8400]

Foreign gods wanting to regain the power they’ve lost to YHVH has been one of the motives for the chaos factions since smt1. I really don’t see what was so confusing about the alignments. If you were a fan at least. Seeing how much he berates 1 I’d expect him to remember that much at least.

[@Alex_Barbosa]

Koshimizus ending really doesn't fit with chaos that well though. Yakumos ending seems to fit with chaos much more with the survival of the fittest and human war with God's stuff. Koshimizus seems much more fit for neutral

[@goleh4044]

@@Alex_Barbosa But if you equate law with monotheism, which the series tends to do all the time, then polytechnic religions, which shinto is one, must be chaotic. Unlike Krishna in IV:A he does not want some equality of worship, he wants humans to be free to revere whichever god of their choice, and that's why he's chaotic and not neutral.

[@Alex_Barbosa]

@@goleh4044 law isn't equated with monotheism as much as just control and order in general. But I'd still say freedom to worship all gods is more neutral than chaotic. A kind of return to the original status quo. Where as chaos would be the uprooting of the status quo in favor of hierarchy built on conflict and subjugation. Which sounds alot more like what Yakumo wants to me.

[@joshuafoote5144]

They sure made Lahmu a terrifying character.

[@joeyjohnson5554]

Can’t wait for your video about SMTV vengeance story. I shared your complaints from this video and vengeance does a good job of addressing them.

[@sheepgod5884]

This game's story is unfinished af. If we do get a directors cut or special version we need more story... Way more story

[@Andy-sj4ip]

Well, Macca it was very Interesting hearing you out and your take on the story Great and insightful video loved it

[@TheGameShelf]

I think it's hard to fix the narrative as it is, so I'm kinda hoping that when they release the SMTV "expansion" it's more of an alternate continuity so they can realize the ideas that were hung to dry and the rest of the characters

[@athorem]

I agree, here's hoping they abandon the current plot as wasteful as that is

[@Sephiroth69829]

I thought about they just making V Maniax be a sequel to the true ending where something ends, Nahobino becomes a tyrant God and the cycle repeats So It would justify the story being the same at base but with major alterations, and like It would be funny Nahobino vs Himself as God in the true ending, at least for me(but in the other hand, this would automatically make V's law ending shit, since it would confirm that doing it would just lead to Nahobino becoming a demiurge)

[@ltb1345]

@@Sephiroth69829 I could imagine a sequel taking place after the "destroy the throne" ending; like, Tao seeks out the new protagonist to rebuild the throne or something. Nahobino would either be an ally or a boss depending on the route you choose. Plus it'd be an easy excuse to reuse maps, since the world would be literally the same after that ending. It also wouldn't invalidate Law and Chaos like Apocalypse did.

[@FujinKeima]

You must be happy right now

[@Schnyr]

Completely unrelated but that footage of the old man at the beginning counting coins really made me sad

[@radical_rat]

Finally got around to finishing the game, and... I thought the story had a lot of potential but just fell flat. Atsuta not really existing as a character despite being an alignment rep is frustrating, though the Chaos ending itself is my preferred outcome. With the caveat that I've only played the odd numbered SMT games so far, I don't really agree with Chaos being about a rule of the strong and the weak being left to die. The theme has always been freedom, but that freedom brings the RISK of instability and conflict as the strong fight over power, with the weak being left behind. But that isn't the goal, it's a side effect. In SMT1, the Chaos Hero starts out seeking strength to protect himself and others from injustice, but because of his own inferiority complex he becomes obsessed with and corrupted by power, and this leads to his death. The player character serves as a foil to this, who isn't corrupted and wields his power responsibly, fighting for the right for human and demon to coexist, fighting to protect life from oppression and homogenization by God, bearing the burden of knowing that choosing freedom means accepting both the good and the bad. In the end, Lucifer does acknowledge and celebrate the Darwinian cycle of evolution, but it's more an observation on nature than something he enforces, and he also professes to want to ensure a world where humans and demons can coexist in harmony. It isn't supposed to be a world where the strong oppress the weak, because that would just be another form of Law. This is then reinforced in Nocturne, despite the Law/Neutral/Chaos alignment scale not being directly used. Chiaki's reason of Yosuga is explicitly in favor of might makes right ideals; that authority is derived from power and the weak are worthless and should be discarded. It's no longer a side-effect, but is itself the goal, with no illusions made about freedom for anyone but the very top. And Lucifer, the embodiment of Chaos, does not deem Chiaki his champion, but instead chooses to bestow his power onto the Demi-fiend, and grooms him into the True Demon Ending instead... Whereas at the end of SMT1, Lucifer believed things would naturally work out for the betterment of everyone through evolution and the cycle of death and rebirth, here he's become disillusioned. He laments how the cycle of creation perpetuates injustices, highlighting the plot of the Manikins and of Hijiri and of the abandoned worlds and gods. His new vision of freedom comes from a rejection of the natural order, rather than embracing a world where the weak are doomed to oppression and misery, and the ending is left on something of a cliffhanger. Then in SMTV, we see a resolution. The Creator God of the universe is dead, Lucifer won the war. But here his nihilism reaches a head in that all he wants is for the cycle to end, believing that this will bring freedom, but offering little to no consideration for the world to come, so long as he personally is freed. The mantle is then basically passed to Tsukuyomi, who echoes the Lucifer of SMT1 in that he doesn't seek a world of conflict and power struggles where the strong assert their rule... He wants everyone to be free to make their own choices, with the gods restored and living alongside humanity. He envisions a utopic harmony, brought about by the will of the world's inhabitants be they human, demon, angel or god, accepting the risk that this may fall to ruin if power struggles re-ignite, as they do. And the ascended Nahobino watches, saddened by the conflicts and destruction they bring, but accepts this as the fate the world chose for itself. While I recognize there are many games I haven't played that may offer conflicting interpretations, to me it seems that to say that Chaos represents a belief in rule of strength is... Reductionist at best. It's about freedom and hope, perhaps to the point of naivete, chasing an ideal vision against the flow of nature and entropy. It stands in opposition to Law, which focuses on trust and order to the point of naivete, also chasing idealism against nature, while Neutral seeks to make the best of the current reality rather than risk losing what's left chasing after dreams of an impossible utopia. In the end though, nothing ever lasts, and the cycle is never broken, as the intro to SMTV asserts... Chaos will fall to order, which will then fall to chaos again. A peaceful anarchy cannot last forever, as power structures and hierarchies naturally emerge. A harmonious order cannot last forever, as people grow bored, yearning to explore life and naturally rebelling. And clinging to somewhere in between where you're most comfortable as the rest of the world pushes and pulls in both directions is an exercise in futility, for as long as there is life there will be change.

[@solidskullz5736]

I don’t mind decent stories but there just wasn’t enough focus on it even though I still found myself invented in it. It has such a large scale with crazy stakes and consequences but doesn’t use its full potential. The race for the throne should’ve been focused on much earlier so that the player really understand what’s going on instead of just angels and demons fighting. In fact the side quests are where I feels it if the story takes place since you learn a lot of details from them

[@matildarose]

Oh god the Khonzu quest chain. I liked it because it showed a more personal side to demon-person interaction, as well as develop two characters that otherwise disappear from the plot. It also made the humanity ending so much worse, since Khonzu showed a possibility of how humans and demons could exist alongside one another, making it better tied with, strangely, the 'Chaos' route. You pinpointed why SMT5 was probably the first game to ever make me prefer the Chaos route: because it didn't revel in it. Heck, even the Law ending was sympathetic.

[@ltb1345]

Yep, I did all those side quests except the Shiva fight, got the Chaos ending, and it felt thematically fitting.

[@skyonisauce]

I kinda wish they did more with bethel as a whole? I think they mightve been the main focus at first (seeing as odin was the main focus in the reveal trailer) but things got scrapped. I thought when they introduced all the gods that the game will head to some sort of reason system akin to nocturne where you'd side with one of the gods present, seeing as everyone has their own goals and motives. Was a bit disappointed there but true neutral was pretty good, credits theme slaps. Good video

[@victoravila5575]

so, vengeance is out, does anyone knows if the new story line rewrites this issues? currently on the first appeareance of the new characters

[@keerthiannadorai4412]

After taking time to think and try to connect the dots I think I can somewhat connect the threads on why certain quest lines are connected to the secret "route." However I will admit that this reasoning is pretty stretched. If I remember correctly, there are 4 quests in order to unlock the secret ending, so I'll go from imo the biggest to least of the stretches. Fionn mac cumhaill: recognizes your devotion to humanity wants to test your strength to see if you can achieve the goal of leading the world to a better place for humans. Amanozako: if left to their own volition, demons will do as they please, like hunt others down for their own goals, with no regards to their surroundings and those in it. Eventually it could end up leading to a Lahmu and Sahori situation. Therefore, the easiest solution was to recognize that demons existence is an overall con for humanity and need to go extinct. Shiva: similar to the end result of the last train of thought, where no matter what world is made for humans afterwards, if there is a demon strong and capable enough to cause mass casualties, then rather biding time until you can eventually stop it (or die trying) it would be better to nip things at the bud. Miyazu and Khonsu: this one is actually a little different from the rest. I feel like for this one the story it tells it that of not needing the gods influence or the need to ascend to Godhood but to instead to stand on your own and live as a human. This in turn can make the player think that humans don't need gods in their lives in order to live, and that erasing them won't harm humanity overall due to them getting by with their own strengths (which is another instance of pushing back against Abdiel and Koshimizu's words that isn't Yakumo or Nuwa). It can be said that the take away of this is that oh if demons are left on their own then they will mettle with humans and therefore they need to go, and while true I think the thought process before it holds more strength and shows some, although very little, character of Miyazu (and some can say it's more than her brother). All in all, I'm not saying this game did a good job in justifying the choices to the secret route, I mean hell it feels like a stretch typing this out, but I'm trying to point out some thematic and any rationalization for the choices. Also if any part of this comes off as unclear, my bad its the morning as of rn and this took longer than I thought and I need to head out soon.

[@manuelredgrave8348]

Whilst i don't think this game's story is the worst thing in the world, i was actually more enthralled by its beginning (due to me wondering what was going to happen afterwards) then the latter half which was filled by unused potential. Doing the Chaos route, i was baffled by Yuzuru's death, not only was his character completely wasted by not having him do nothing the whole game, but the way he died was genuinely upsetting. He and Koshimizu could have turned into a nahobino right away, survived the oppositon's transformation and that would have lead to a battle sequence, if they were to die after said battle i wouldn't have been as upset, it would have made some sense atleast, but their death was completely avoidable and stupid. I was unaware of the fact that the game was going to tackle the themes you've said near the end (unemployment etc), but between all the callbacks to nocturne amounting to nothingness and the fact that said themes barely appear, i think that during development there was a split between either 1 making the game talk more about the humans or 2 focussing on the Wasteland and its demons (either that or they didn't have the time to develop the human side of the world, which is why you have only the 2D map and barely anything to do in the human side of the world slightly related, When it comes to the Dazai's plotline it reminded me of Chiaki, trying to make sense of her unfair situation and eventually coping by following her empowering ideology and becoming an extremist, her dislike of the weak is also found in Yakumo so i guess they took some inspiration from her during development. Having not played 1/2 i didn't know that plotline was already reused

[@manuelredgrave8348]

30:24 Please don't give Atlus ideas, they already suck enough with their scummy DLC practices, paying twice to see the good version of a game is just too much

[@some_guy117]

Let’s hope Atlus does what they do with popular releases and makes a updated version or do what smt 4 did and make a apocalypse version or something

[@alsaiduq4363]

23:25 What's there to forgive ? Sahori literaly did nothing wrong. She never had control over what happened , entire time Lahamu was controlling her and saying what she should do , litetaly manipulating her. Sahori had no agency entire time. How should we forgive something that was out of her control. Only when Lahamu was caught out guard by the Nahobino reviving she was able to take control and stop Lahmu. Sahori can't be forgiven because she did nothing wrong.

[@jamcalx]

She still chooses listen to Lahmu at first, but it understandable that he whispered and wait for her weakest moment to make the deal. He still had to wait for her accept him.

[@deadnalive9166]

I have this discussion w someone else and we both easily agreed on the choice of focusing/trying to saving her from being a victim of bully and Lahmu's temptations

[@jamcalx]

@@deadnalive9166 at the end of the day, she is still a victim being preyed upon and needs help, and we are the ones to do it.

[@alsaiduq4363]

@@jamcalx She didn't choose to go with Lahmu tho. She met with Lahmut but then she was mind controlled into going inside Lahmu.

[@jamcalx]

@@alsaiduq4363 that was after she agreed to team up, but after she enacted her revenge in started to sink in but it was too late to escape as Lahmu had its claws in her soul.

[@stevenbrady1624]

Yakumo kind of reminds me of Guts from Berserk in the first volume (Post-Eclipse) of the manga, because he too had disdain towards weak humans saying as he talks to Puck “Anyone who dies because they get caught up in someone else’s fight is a small fry who doesn’t have the strength to survive in the first place.” I say Yakumo is a breath of fresh air for the Neutral path. I also really dig the concept of Chaos and Law unlike SMT 4 because of the lack of genocide which might happen later though. At least it’s not from the get-go, am I right Merkabah?! 🤣

[@garrettcarter5622]

I think Dazai just looks too CARTOONISHLY evil and edgelord-y when he goes crosses over for me to take him seriously. It just feels like I'm watching Kai Leng all over again.

[@tiensimon1263]

Cant wait for a new video linking to vengeance 😂

[@One_way_Dream]

30:25 oh the irony

[@Dinodio64]

30:29 Oh man, i am so pleased to tell they absolutely did not

[@Antasma1]

The story was alright, but it felt rushed and needed more time in the oven. One quarter of the game was the prologue, half the game has no bearing on where the game’s going, and the final quarter is the one that matters. They also needed to iron out character motivations. I also hate when people use Nocturne to excuse the story’s flaws because they didn’t rush the story and character development

[@Seferioth]

I like how in this game endings are tainted by the other spectrum. Law ending is created from chaos, from lies and breaking the order of God to reinstall the order of God. Chaos is born from the collision of different gods, because every one of them create own "laws" gods.

[@Alex_Barbosa]

That's the real message of the series isn't it? Endless cycles.

[@Seferioth]

@@Alex_Barbosa yeah, but it is usually one way or another, full law/chaos.

[@joshuafoote5144]

22:49 Does this mean Lahmu's story is the online predator equivalent?

[@RubyChiang]

One of my favourite scenes came from Lucifer in the Secret Ending as well as during his battle. After watching this video and finally getting to the Secret Ending, it got me thinking about how deep the story actually was. One of Lucifer's quotes in the Secret Ending battle translates to "Think about what true freedom is." And is quite a loaded question to think about. Everyone has a different idea of what freedom is like. While he laments at the idea that creating a world void of demons and gods is still going to eventually break down, the whole idea that I perceive it as is that all this fighting with demons and intervention from the gods is just so tiring that even 10 years of peace where no fighting and no disruptions are caused is better than the constant and never ending fighting that was going on in the story.

[@DonutSwordsman]

You really like it more than 1+2? That dualogy was pretty neat especially story wise

[@gregg_rulz0k824]

I see the way this game ended up, think about how the original release of nocturne didn't have TDE, and get hopeful about some future re-release

[@Antowan]

I think it can be said with the mandala system this is why we see similar allies in many games. Not only are the heroes like nahabino, demifiend and kalki from 4 apocalypse are reborn but so are friends like walter and others

[@GRiznitDShiznit]

Definitely not the best. Game definitely could use a “Complete” edition with a lot of extra story and gameplay content. Also, a new SMTIV Super Boss, or even Digital Devil Saga. Definitely still want to keep playing SMTV, great replayability but it you just run of content.

[@Facesforce]

To me, the issues with SMT 5's story really comes down to this: What is the point of the story? Let's look back at SMT 1. In that game, you get both Law and Chaos at both extremes, with undertones of American imperialism for Law and Chaos being linked to several Japanese cult/ militant movements. Overall, a bunch of political commentary. Smt 2 adopts more of Law is bad, but explores in detail why a society controlled by law leads to suppression of humanity. SMT 3 goes down the rabbit hole of real world philosophies taken to thier logical extremes. It's a world of chaos that can only be solved by introducing law back into it. Then we have SMT 4. Smt 4 has these extremely deep scenes and ideas, such as knowledge being enough to corrupt a human into demonhood, the depravity of man when they are forced to create a system to survive, the horror of existence compared to the holiness of non existence. Now what does Smt 5 provide? God's last miracle, while interesting, is hardly explored. The throne? A battle royale plot. I was hoping for a sorrowful Lucifer, or some grand statement, but this is the first SMT without any big ideas outside of God recreating humanity. Needless to say, I'm disappointed.

[@unexpectedbonk4049]

So while watching this video i actually finished my 2nd playthrough of the extended waifu featuring rerelease. First time i played canon of vengence and was surprised so many people had issues with the story but as i replayed the canon of creation i can reallt see why it felt so lack lustre, on a 2nd playthru i felt my characters motivations were very much just based on "this dude told me to go here" until the very end where we could consider what ending we aligned with. In comparison the quadistu of CoV really felt like a good motivating force and a genuine threat to be dealt with espacially with their meddling being constant. The only thing i thought wouldve been good to carry over is the meeting of Bethel branches cos in my first run it was very much confusing when Zeus and Odin are just hanging out and Vasuki gets curbed stomped without a single word