Madison Square Garden & NY Penn Station - the Fight for a New York City Block

[@corycoral7072]

Rethink Penn is beautiful and deserves this plan to work. It’s beautiful and would be a great edition to the city

[@DTransit]

Agreed! I think the proposition is beautiful - but how long will it take to even happen and will it even happen - is the question.

[@holycrapchris]

Fun fact: the current MSG is actually MSG #4. The various MSGs have been rebuilt and relocated since the 19th century.

[@chperezjr]

Exactly and still some people act like MSG cant be relocated

[@JerseyFerdinand]

So the trend can continue.

[@DannyEastVillage]

Move the Garden to Hudson Yards, give 'em their own Amtrak/NJ Transit station so patrons of Garden events don't have to come all the way into Penn station and then backtrack to the Garden

[@trumpsupporter7772]

Rebuilding the old Penn Station would correct a tragic error. There are plenty of empty office blocks in Manhattan that can't find tennats and could be demolished allowing the relocation of Maddison Square Garden.

[@enarush1]

Those unused offices can also be converted into apartments

[@TysonIke]

2 wrongs don’t make a right. Removing MSG would be just as bad as removing the original station. I like both trains and basketball, but the problem is not the garden, it’s the office tower adjacent.

[@ryanscottlogan8459]

I agree 100%.It will ever happen under the idiots who rule our city and state.

[@liguy181]

@@TysonIkeWhat history does MSG have? Many decades of a mediocre Knicks team? One cup in its entire existence? The garden blows, spending time at any of the other, modern arenas in the New York area makes this crystal clear. The greatest city in the world deserves a world-class arena, we shouldn't cling on to MSG 4 while it's actively inhibiting any real improvements to Penn Station (besides the lipstick on a pig the state's been doing for the past decade or so)

[@fullnelson9999]

Anyone who refers to building a new arena as a "relocation" is not to be trusted. It oversimplifies an extremely complicated situation. Hmm I wonder why...

[@mackenja43]

Tremendously informative and interesting video! Thank you..

[@Aristocles22]

They really should rebuild the old neoclassical Penn Station. Destroying it was a tragic error. Rebuilding it is no more unrealistic than France rebuilding Notre Dame after its fire.

[@TechLurker]

first time i saw pics of the old penn station that was destroyed, i screamed

[@Aristocles22]

@@TechLurker Yeah. To willingly destroy that beauty was just insane.

[@emjayay]

Berlin had a huge modern building from the DDR that they demolished and replaced with a replica of the building that had been there before WWII (but different inside).

[@robertw.previdi5450]

True but who will pay?

[@bobjones1999]

It's possible to rebuild but I think the issue is that there's going to be some massive corruption. It's probably going to cost 1 billion dollars just to recreate one of the eagles.

[@TheFarix2723]

Is relocating MSG not an option? Because this isn't the first MSG to have existed in NYC.

[@SaintGBar22]

But this is the landmark one and the one with the most history at this point

[@drwho9437]

MSG could be put near any transit accessible location. I mean there is space just blocks away over Hudson yards! Meanwhile the space over the platforms at Penn is not really movable without 100s of billions in cost. MSG has to move. As for restoring the historic design, I think that is silly nostalgia. It was a mistake to tear it down but it is gone and that error shouldn't be compounded by more errors. Build something grand that looks to and has room for the future.

[@tony_sheppard165]

who said beaux art cant be modern or grand for the future? or a better argument, who said the future has to be a glass/concrete blocks? while I enjoy modern architecture and I do agree there's some benefits (mostly on cost of materials, but awful on operating expenses depending on how its built) I disagree that building a building in an older style is "silly nostalgia". if anything it bring back some character to the city, and it pays homage to the great architecture in the past. why do we love the empire state building so much? If that was torn down, would you still say, rebuilding it would be a silly nostalgic taste?

[@Greco4915]

I would like to see a brighter Penn Station, the Moynihan Train Hall is a good step in the right direction. But as you said, more work has to be done.

[@raymondcastro2613]

I learned so much. Thank you. New subscriber.

[@Blade.s15]

A transit nerd and a die hard Knicks fan, the station needs to come first, point blank. It’s absolutely horrendous that this is the “welcome to New York” that commuters and tourists endure. Aesthetics aside, it’s also just a huge hodgepodge of different agencies running their own little corners without any uniformity. I’ve seen what good public infrastructure looks like in Japan, what we have in the “greatest city in the world” is an absolute joke. We owe it to ourselves as New Yorkers/ NJ to pride in public infrastructure, something that’s already so rare in the rest of the country. My Knicks fan side says MSG is iconic and will always be the Mecca of basketball but it’s also the oldest arena in the NBA and like Yankee and Shea stadium, it’s time to create new memories for the next generation elsewhere. Recreating the iconic atmosphere, down to the lighting and acoustics will be tough but it’s not impossible. Besides, it’s the fans that make MSG electrifying.

[@gabetalks9275]

ReThinkNYC plans to move the arena to the intersection of 34th Street and Broadway at Herald Square, so it'll only be one block East of where it is currently. It could even remain physically connected to Penn via the gateway tunnels because Herald Square Station is connected to Penn Station now via those tunnels. The world famous architect Richard Cameron has an ornate design for it. It's based on MSG ll, but it's still modern and circular like the current one, so the interior easily be a recreation of the current MSG layout with those dimensions. It would be like MSG never left, but simply was levitated and dropped a few feet east.

[@TysonIke]

I think that both the arena and station can be kept. The arena doesn’t take up the whole block. Their is the theater, office tower, and loading docks. Also the arena leaves huge area open in the corners due to its circular shape. I think everything surrounding the arena should be removed and turned into station area. Than for the stadium they should put in walkways over the street to spread the crowds for events. It’s possible to have stations below other buildings. The future Salesforce TC in SF will be below a 5 acre park, mall, 1000ft skyscraper and bus terminal yet their will still be natural light on the platforms. Also an infil NJ transit station should be built east to connect to the 4,5,6 and future T subway lines.

[@gabetalks9275]

@@TysonIke That is extremely impractical. MSG's support beams rest of the platforms, making it impossible to fix the track layout with the arena there. Creating pedestrian space cannot make up for poor service, and the arena still takes up the overwhelming majority of the space immediately above the tracks, which the most important area where open pedestrian space is needed the most. Current Penn Station is already a cramped, overcomplicated, basement maze, so expanding it will just make it even more confusing and needlessly difficult to navigate. And you can't even expand it without demolishing entire blocks because the core beams holding up the buildings on the surrounding blocks are imbedded deep underground, so unless you're willing to pull a Robert Moses (which you really shouldn't be btw), bulldozing the neighborhood is not an option under any circumstances. The space surrounding MSG isn't as big as you think either because that space is dedicated to loading docks as well as the cooler for the Rangers ice rink. Turning the space surrounding MSG into pedestrian space will leave no room for MSG's operations to function properly. There's a reason why all the local railroads called them incompatible.

[@TysonIke]

@@gabetalks9275 The local railroads need to reevaluate their priorities first. A key reason why Penn station is so bad is due to them all having service stub end. There are more than enough tracks at Penn station under the existing layout if the railroads could figure out that having trains sit on platforms for 15+ minutes is completely useless. Second off the main issue is the tower. It sits directly above the NJT and some of the LIRR waiting areas. By removing it there would be more than adequate space. As for relocating facilities there is a parking ramp on 31st st that should be taken down for new loading docks and a new tower if needed.

[@gabetalks9275]

@@TysonIke The reason why the trains sit on the platforms in the first place is because of the track layout, which is a direct result of the tracks needing the wind around MSG's support beams. The terminal layout forces trains coming in and out of the station to cut off the trains waiting to leave the platforms. Implementing through-running, which is impossible with those obstructions in the way, would fix this problem. This is why all the local railroads are calling MSG and Penn Station no longer compatible. Penn Station's poor service is a direct result of MSG being there. Them wanting MSG to move so that they can give the entire block back to Penn Station is them having their priorities in order. Keeping MSG there to the detriment of Penn Station is prioritizing MSG over Penn Station.

[@Rah2005]

A small part to correct. Amtrak owns both the East and Hudson River tunnels.

[@ajs11201]

At the risk of making this discussion even more complicated-- there is another debacle just a few blocks away, known as the Port Authority Bus Terminal (PABT). It, too, needs an enormous infusion of ideas and money. Perhaps the two projects could be considered in conjunction, with a solution for MSG somewhere near a rebuilt PABT. Just a thought....

[@robertewalt7789]

Easier to move the bus station, but yes, put them closer together.

[@Wewwers]

Rebuild (with modern amenities) the old Penn Station headhouse, 100%

[@bartonpercival3216]

This current Madison Square Garden building is the 4th building in its history. Built in 1968 it's a architectural masterpiece, going through a massive renovation in 2011. That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to the current Garden being moved and rebuilt, only it it was architecturaly rebuilt in it's current form in a modern way. MSG is important to the city of NY and sports history just as the Empire state building or the statue of liberty!!!!!

[@pad9x]

i really like that idea of totally relocating MSG, and rebuilding Penn Station.

[@robertnichols4833]

When the two new Hudson tunnels are completed, there will be eight new tracks and their platform added to the south of the current tracks and platforms. The new tracks and platforms will extend all the way to 30th street, so it looks as if there will need to be an above ground station between 30th and 31st Streets.

[@SuperDave30]

For underground train station Penn Station is absolutely legendary also the station went thru a huge renovation and facelift which it’s was time since the showing it’s age and Amtrak and LIRR offices most of its amenities at Moynihan train hall just extension of Penn station and even better and greater. Penn station is like an underground city with most retail stores and below ground and the rail platforms are far below ground level which it’s very interesting.

[@metro-sn]

Madison Square Garden is legendary its own right, and an iconic part of the city. Its very good for the region as essentially the most public transit-accessible entertainment venue in the entire nation. There is certainly a way that Penn can be made grander while keeping the Garden exactly where it is. I wish you have spoken more about that instead of only the owners threatening to sue.

[@tyreek.6815]

Right it felt very... biased. But like told in a way where it doesn't paint the entire picture to make both sides look neutral. Like a historical as well as someone's property is trying to be altered and people are acting like its just some random house in the way. Im sure the owners want to help but they dont want to be in a lose-lose situation where they have to give up just because the owners in NY took many many years to expand something that has been growing every year. Very unfair to put someone else at fault for what should have been done for years. Also people in the comments make me laugh. If it was them having ownership of something very historical and prominent to NY and the USA they wouldn't want to lose it. They think tearing down other things to build a whole dang arena fixes things when in reality it causes way more problems. Even on the financial and culture side of Manhattan losing both an NBA and an NHL team. Look at what happened to the Warriors. People raved about how in Oakland they had real fans and roaring support... now everyone complains it's just rich people from San Fran going for the idea and not the true passion. That small change of moving across the bay had a big impact culturally.

[@lephtovermeet]

Spending billions of dollars to rebuild moyneham hall, then rebuild penn station, then reroute trains to grand central. Meanwhile huge swaths of queens have crap for trains, theres nothing going east to west in the bronx, there's almost nothing connecting outer trains in Brooklyn and Queens, and theres tons of delapidated stations all over the city.

[@halycon404]

Every time they try to do something out there the community revolts. Let's just take LaGuardia. In the 80s there was a proposal to connect LaGuardia to the existing lines and a tunnel from LaGuardia to JFK. In the 90s they just wanted to add a line to LaGuardia. LIRR tried to connect to LaGuardia in the 00s. Another in the '10s for a subway extension. All of them shutdown by NIMBYs. There's two camps.. The people who live out there and want extra connection points, and the people who own houses and small apartment buildings who don't. For as long as I've been alive the state has been listening to the land owners who see extra connection points turning their neighborhoods into mini-Manhattan if allowed to go forward.

[@victorharderson8782]

The drone footage was incredible.. almost made it difficult to pay attention to what was being said

[@stuarttaylor4188]

The USA always seems to over complicate things.

[@LookToWindward]

Having like 18 levels of government at any given location tends to do that. Plus extensive court review and litigation of basically everything.

[@eddihaskell]

That is why major transit projects in the USA that require federal funding take forever to build and cost at least twice as much as they do in Europe.

[@MichaelfromtheGraves]

And the fact that politicians love to throw money at new buildings rather than funding real infrastructure and service improvements. Through running would relieve so much of the Penn Station headache but politicians won't put in the work to get the funding and power systems of NJ Transit and LIRR to work together.

[@ENTERTAINMENT35]

That's why we are the way we are!! It's awful

[@nanaokyere7141]

Same with Canada smh.

[@jrom428]

One of the biggest mistake NY ever made was allowing the original Penn Station to be demolished but at this point, telling a private company to up and move is wrong. Maybe moving MSG where the Javits Center is would be a decent compromise if the City pays to build the new stadium

[@tyreek.6815]

THANK YOU. People not realizing NY's OWN mistakes shouldn't be at fault of the RIGHTFUL OWNERS of MSG. It's not their fault NY not only made things more difficult but waited till things started "breaking" to upgrade. MSG should not come out of pocket nor face all this backlash I'm seeing from people. This is NYC's fault. Not MSGs.

[@user-qm7nw7vd5s]

As usual, they have chosen the worst of the worst of all options…

[@nanaokyere7141]

The fact that Penn station and Grand central don't connect is mind boggling. Those are 2 of the biggest transit stations in North America.

[@goobot1]

They just connected them

[@nanaokyere7141]

@@goobot1 Really! Finally

[@RacksonRacksonRibss]

They service different train systems though

[@Railoffroader2]

@@goobot1That’s interesting, how so?

[@MultiPetercool]

Replace the theater. Why build a new arena? Much more economical and environmentally friendly. Demolishing an rebuilding an arena elsewhere will produce more greenhouse gases.

[@eRulr]

As a railfan and NJ Devils fan, moving MSG elsewhere and building the station up would be both hilarious and cool to see

[@SaintGBar22]

The garden has become a modern day land mark that will never be moved.

[@sarnobat2000]

The fly-through graphic is amazing. I hope MSG is NEVER demolished. I'm a wrestling fan and there are too many memories there.

[@emjayay]

Buildings where things happened have been demolished and rebuilt all the time in NYC. People's memories remain.

[@underratedbub]

Relocate MSG. This is the reason eminent domain exists. Penn Station needs to be rebuilt for the sake of all of New York.

[@robertw.previdi5450]

That's fine but who should pay? Look at what the expansion of Penn station will cost using eminent domain. It's too much and now Amtrak has put that portion of Gateway on hold. Look you can move the theater under MSG and get PM light into Penn. There's ways to work around MSG

[@tyreek.6815]

False. The reason is rich people waited till it became a problem rather than upgrade through time. Now this is the thing called life. You made your hand now deal with it. It is unfair and unjust to fault and blame MSG. Work with MSG on rebuilding together. If you agree that MSG should be moved then you're supporting corruption.

[@albundy06]

For the sake of all of New York. LOL. Umm. New Yorkers don't give a flying F about Penn station.

[@bennie1138000]

It would be great to relocate MSG to the far west side of Manhattan using the footprint of the west side yard (Bloomberg’s fails west side stadium location). Only issue would be if Dolan is going to get a deal from it.

[@42luke93]

Good thing they did this then because today it would have been impossible to build the stadium. However most likely one would have been built at hudson yards instead.

[@geniferteal4178]

How could you make a through station? I mean what would be the purpose? The Long Island railroad services Long Island in New Jersey Transit services New Jersey. Why would those trains continue on? It's not their territory. It will always be a terminal station for both sides.

[@karlmckinnell2635]

Send Letitia to measure the square footage 😂😂

[@TheLiamster]

ReThinkNYC has the best proposal. MSG should be relocated and Penn Station be rebuilt

[@TysonIke]

As a rail fan and basketball fan removing the garden is a terrible idea. It’s the only major sports arena that doesn’t have a major parking footprint. It is one of the most iconic buildings so tearing it down would be just like tearing down the original Penn.

[@jimbo1637]

​@@TysonIkeMSG doesn't need to be gotten rid of. It just needs to move. IMO, they should rebuild MSG where the section of Hudson Yards that never got built would have been. There would room to rebuild Penn Station and MSG would still have a subway connection.

[@subzerofromny735]

@@jimbo1637and demolish part of the high line with it? Have you lost your mind?

[@jimbo1637]

@@subzerofromny735 Go look at the blocks directly south of the Javits Center on Google Earth. The high line turns to the west before it reaches Hudson Yards, so you could easily build a new stadium above the LIRR yard without touching it.

[@fullnelson9999]

@@jimbo1637uouve been duped by the rhetoric. You don't "move" MSG...it's a full tear down and rebuild just like any other new arena project.

[@RattledPan]

First time visitor here, and I must tell you how delighted to find your channel and content! I love big projects, and it always fascinates me how people must look at change as puzzles to solve. That is...my jam~! Boys never really give up their Tonka trucks; watch 'em if you don't believe me, gaffaw! GREAT information, concisely presented, which is no mean feat, considering this dense, chaotic situation to be able to exhibit without blowing your audience's heads off. NYC is my favorite cities to watch getting things done. For your audiences outside of the US that haven't heard of New York's completely silly ways of trying to give everyone a little sliver of pie, ends up in complete bedlam like out of Terry Gilliam's Brazil. I live in Portland Oregon, the city that rose up when the Federales wanted to put a freeway up that would have destroyed our downtown. Our city, the tri-county council and our unique slow-growth zoning laws has allowed us to have a purpose built city train system. NYC, on the cutting edge of technology, zoned, built a railway system and the city designed with that in mind...over a century ago. The quirks that Manhattanites have grown up in the city to live or work in, must see this as normal. I've got to dive in and look at some of this other interesting titles!

[@fennec13]

I don't think the Garden should ever have been built there, or the old Penn destroyed , but the problem is that the Garden is a huge deal to the city. I've been there many times and its an amazing venue. That said, I do think transportation should come first and some of the schemes that develop land alongside the garden, to get Penn above ground and still have the garden seem like the better compromise while improving the overall functionality of Penn in this new configuration. I'd like nothing better than to see Penn rebuilt to what it was, but I don't think that would be practical or economical, and moving a billion dollar stadium doesn't seem like money well spent these days either !

[@tyreek.6815]

If transportation comes first then the station should've been had upgrades. Unfair and unjust to fault and put MSG at a disadvantage because rich people waited till everything started breaking to upgrade. Now face the consequences of working with MSG rather than putting them at a disadvantage bc of ones-self wrongdoings.

[@albundy06]

Transportation isn't what all these train nerds and government clowns are actually screaming about and insisting on stealing billions more of your tax dollars to build. They just want a fancy new building to look at or stamp their names on as something they built. All these people straight up lying with this it's about the transportation nonsense. You wanna fix "Penn station" and it's all about the transportation? How about you fix the northeast corridor ancient power delivery system that is a complete and utter joke. Oh that's right, no fancy building to showcase and say look at what I did if you do that! Instead you have the most used section of rail in the country running on the absolutely worst overhead power delivery system. But it's ok. When that fails day after day in the summer AM rush hr when it isn't even hot, the government fools and media comes out and blaims climate change and the heat! Meanwhile about 15 miles away, the New Haven line and it's overhead power delivery system is working perfectly like normal. LOL it's about "transportation". Get outta here.

[@mattdooley6595]

Great video. If this doesn't explain the career of Ulf Nilsson for New York Rangers fans, nothing will.

[@KyrilPG]

Interesting! Penn Station is a planner's headache. Though the "busiest in the Western Hemisphere" description is quite confusing. Penn Station is the busiest in America, or the West side of the Atlantic. But not of "the West", as the busiest outside of Japan is Paris Gare du Nord, and several other European stations are busier than Penn Station. Especially because Paris GdN, for example, only officially counts entries, not including arrivals nor most transfers, when Penn Station adds entries and arrivals. As for the Madison Square Garden, it is such a staple of New York that I have a hard time imagining it replaced by anything. It is THE arena in Manhattan, as iconic as the Royal Albert Hall or Wembley Stadium in London, the Garnier or Bastille Operas or Bercy arena in Paris, La Scala in Milan... It may not have the architecture and history of some of the opera and concert halls mentioned, but it is an iconic place in New York. How would New Yorkers feel about the disappearance of the Garden?

[@exit6610]

The Western Hemisphere always been defined as the half of the globe that includes North and South America along with the Atlantic Ocean and part of the Pacific Ocean. Japan along with Europe, are part of the Eastern Hemisphere.

[@KyrilPG]

@@exit6610 I know but a majority of people confuse the Western hemisphere with "the West" or Western countries, which include most of Europe and Australia. And why say Western hemisphere, with such a common confusion, when "American continent" or "the Americas" cover it ? Or even just "West of the Atlantic". And if we're very technical, the Western hemisphere begins at the Greenwich Meridian, so it includes the majority of London and some of its busiest stations. Train stations that are probably busier than Penn Station . So the Western hemisphere thing is far too confusing.

[@exit6610]

@@KyrilPG Fair point. FYI - I was at Paris Gare du Nord last Summer and its an awesome sight. The train terminals in London also. So, as former New Yorker, I've been fortunate enough to the top stations in both Europe and "The Americas" (Penn, GCT, Toronto Union)

[@emjayay]

MSG is just a simple drum shape with a typical amphitheater inside. It's not iconic in any way like those other structures are.

[@SGong33]

Which other video has info on the gateway program tunnel?

[@Itsgrantsrants]

Haven’t they favored MSG long enough?

[@chperezjr]

They should rebuilt the Original Penn Station, NYC owes that to the people, it was a horrible architectural crime that needs to be undone

[@paulolden4337]

MSG is am ARENA .. NOT a stadium. Big difference between the two ... literally. The Yankees and Mets play in stadiums. Otherwise, good report

[@DannyEastVillage]

Grand Central processes 750,000 passengers a day, while Penn Station processes 600,000

[@robertw.previdi5450]

both numbers are misleading. Metro North moves 200,000 a day now, 300,000 pre covid. You can't just add the subway ridership, some of which does not even enter GCT. Same with Penn, NJT, LIRR and Amtrak add up to 450,000 pre covid, and again you can't just add the subway ridership. First of all that would be double counting each trip. Yes each person might pass through twice a day, but we wouldn't want to count that as four trips.

[@ArthurBrooklyn]

what about placing the garden UNDER the train hall? - it needs no windows as currently it doesn't have any AND its practically the same way in Brooklyn. Well the train yard and the stadium are both underground, but they could easily be stacked.

[@robertw.previdi5450]

Money

[@michaelrae9599]

It did NOT cost 1 billion dollars to build an arena in 1968. The stadium in Dallas cost over 1 Billion. Check or qualify that number (adjusted for inflation?).

[@gabetalks9275]

Two key details that you forgot to mention: 1. Hochul has, for now at least, given up on the demolition and rebuilding of neighborhood surrounding Penn Station due to the mass backlash. However, sadly, Hotel Pennsylvania, the historic hotel that McKim, Mead, and White built as part of Penn Station was already bulldozed to make way for the first new skyscraper that is not being built. So now, it's just a vacant lot. If ReThinkNYC's plan is the winner, we could very likely see Hotel Pennsylvania return alongside Old Penn Station. 2. ReThinkNYC already has a new location for MSG selected. They plan to move MSG one block east to Herald Square right behind Hotel Pennsylvania at the intersection of Broadway and 34th Street with an ornate design inspired by MSG ll to visually complement Penn Station and Hotel Pennsylvania. This location would be a huge win for both MSG and New Yorkers because not only would the gateway tunnels that Hochul is building keep MSG and Penn Station physically connected, but it would also direct connect the arena to Herald Square Station as well, which is connected to MetroNorth, making MSG even more well connected by rail than it already is. There are literally 0 cons to the core of ReThinkNYC's plan. Transit experts have criticized ReThinkNYC's implementation of regionwide through-running, but that can easily fixed by simply bringing in professional who can modify their vision accordingly. But the core of their plan is what's most important here, and what they have proposed is literally perfect. It's the dream that we've all wanted, but never thought was possible until now! Donate to ReThinkNYC on their website and campaign loudly for them! This is a one in a century opportunity that we cannot afford to lose! Fight like hell for this!

[@BCE11]

Metro North is not at Herald Square, that’s PATH. Metro North is 8 blocks north east at Grand Central

[@gabetalks9275]

@@BCE11 I said it's connected to MetroNorth. Not that it's part of it. Herald Square is connected to northbound trains, which connect to MetroNorth. Penn Station is currently disconnected from MetroNorth. Ideally, Penn Station should rearrange the tracks between it and Grand Central so that they can both finally be connected.

[@tyreek.6815]

Moving MSG because of NYC's incompetence is very evil. If it was so important they would've been upgrading Penn St as time went on not waiting till everything was breaking. Very unjust and unfair to move MSG. Regardless of anything, Moving (rebuilding) vs Moving (shifting) is completely different. If you rebuild then you're losing all historical value to MSG which is unfair to many many people and disrespecting culture. If you were in the position of ownership of something historical or prominent to many cultural things then you wouldn't be so joyous about someones property being taken. NY rather build super tall skyscrapers for the rich and famous, yet finally when more choke points come from new buildings, they want to start upgrading. Moving (shifting) while keeping things intact has happened and can be possible. If it was to be moved rather than not rebuilt, Its more favorable to culture, historical value, and the RIGHTFUL OWNERS of MSG. If they don't agree to move it (AS THEY SHOULDN'T BE SHAMED FOR) then I think rebuilding the whole block and expanding the station THROUGH MSG is more reasonable than putting MSG in a lose-lose situation where their opinion doesn't matter because NY waited till last minute.

[@gabetalks9275]

@@tyreek.6815 The reason why Penn Station has been neglected for so long is in large part due to most cities huffing the Robert Moses coke and believing that transit is obsolete, which is clearly isn't. But even apart from that, current Penn Station was built to only accommodate 200k riders because like most cities, NYC was expecting transit ridership to decline. Instead, ridership has dramatically increased to 600k+ on a daily basis in a station that is way too small to accommodate those numbers. And MSG's support beams rest on the track platforms, making it impossible to rearrange the tracks to fix the actual service, which is half of the problem, impossible without moving the arena. All the local railroads came together and said that Penn Station and MSG are no longer compatible for a reason. I get that MSG is historic, but you're overestimating it's value. This is the 4th iteration of MSG, yet there's only one Penn Station. You're downplaying how important Penn Station was and still is to the city. Penn Station was one of a kind, unlike a sports arena that's always destined to be replaced eventually. If MSG was really that special, then it wouldn't have a history of being replaced, just like every other sports arena. Transit will always be more important than a sports arena for obvious reasons.

[@akashdubey7056]

can you do a top 10 trains video?

[@gavinsheridan4680]

Public transit should always take pole position over other interests in a city that large.

[@matthewcole4753]

Why? People are leaving NYC at a historic rate to move to Florida. Office jobs are increasingly done at home, rent is so damn expensive. Tourism is the only real industry in Manhattan left. Everybody who actually has a history in NYC lives in the outer boroughs because they wouldn't be stupid enough to move to Manhattan. The outer boroughs suffer with transit issues much much more than Manhattan and never get prioritized. Brooklyn and Queens have poor service going North to South on the subway system. Staten Island has no connection to ANY other borough other than a few buses and ferries which almost always requires a transfer. Penn Station really isn't as important as most think it is. It doesn't serve the majority of New Yorkers. Amtrak needs to improve their service before it becomes New York's issue with their station.

[@tyreek.6815]

If that was the case then transportation should have been upgraded many many years ago as growth was happening. Nothing gets the pole position just bc people were arrogant. Work with MSG. Not take.

[@Ardy6]

It's never going to happen bro !

[@TheNomad3000]

In other words, the politicians want their cut. The right palms are going to have to be greased.

[@NeoDerGrose]

I miss an important aspect. The garden and the station aren't just hindering each other's development, they also benefit from another. Thanks to the station the garden is probably the best connected venue in the whole US. It's even at a top spot worldwide, with Europe and Asia generally having far better connected venues and stadiums. The station of course doesn't benefit as much from the garden, but public transport does. Relocating the garden most likely would make it much more reachable by car and less by public transport. That's just how it generally works in the US, putting a venue in the middle of nowhere and surrounding it with a sea of parking spots. That's just awful.

[@raymonegibson7070]

Let Penn station get another site and msg, stay put

[@keithss67]

The land of the garden is owned by the city. It’s leased to the garden.

[@DSQueenie]

Isn’t it on a long lease? If the city wants to cancel the lease they’ll need to pay up.

[@keithss67]

@@DSQueenie the lease expired when Bloomberg was mayor. He gave them a short extension which runs out fairly soon. They are just trying to bully their way through it.

[@JoeyJoe-f5o]

Move msg to the west side yard … build a new path train to New Jersey too

[@scottydude456]

As much as I despise MSG for destroying Penn Station, you gotta admit that it’s probably one of the most transit-oriented event spaces in the world… …still should have been built on top the rail yard though like Hudson Yards is now, and NOT DESTROY THE MOST BEAUTIFUL THING EVER!

[@nomanejane5766]

❤❤❤

[@redm91]

I'm a transit fan and a sports fan. I know that tearing down MSG is the more practical option for transit fans, but for concert goers and sports fans? absolutely not. As well, tearing down MSG would mean we lose the physicality to a lot of recent history. There's a reason MSG is "The World's Most Famous Arena"! It shouldn't move because all of the station's parties realized destroying the original Penn was a bad idea after the fact. All parties need to cooperate on a plan that rebuilds Penn Station that doesn't treat MSG as an afterthought or greatly inconveniences those attending events there. Ideally, this plan will also have a way to make Penn a through-running station again, but that's likely not possible. IF and only if there's no possible way to make a new Penn building without removing MSG, you've got to find a way to build it back up in a suitable place. Somewhere that has the multiple connections of 34th Street, and is still in Manhattan. It's really easy to say "tear it down and throw it somewhere else" when you're no longer being inconvenienced by that. Lots of people will be though, and two wrongs don't make a right.

[@iamtobler]

Is it really "The Worlds Most Famous Arena" though? I've never heard it called that anywhere else... Maybe it's only called that in New York? Kinda like random places that claim "World Best Cup of Coffee" or "World Famous Burgers" maybe haha (exaggerated/bad comparisons I know)...

[@redm91]

@@iamtobler it's a marketing tagline and not based in objective fact, but it's use is justified. It's been host to so many iconic events it's not even funny. It's one of the most prestigious concert venues, basketball arenas, hockey rinks, boxing rings and wrestling areas in the world. There genuinely isn't a single arena in the US that comes close, and only a few could rival it internationally.

[@emjayay]

Yankee Stadium was far more iconic than MSG - and was torn down and a new one built not in the same footprint only a few years ago.

[@redm91]

@@emjayay did Yankee Stadium not have significant structural issues which lead to it being replaced in favor of repair and was it's successor not built on a plot of land literally across the street which had a stadium sized park

[@Phukchina]

Why do people care if the station is underground. Tokyo and other Japanese stations are mostly underground, and they are fantastic. They just need to do it right and clean the place up.

[@FaithfulDiscipleOfTheKing]

Why don't we take Madison Square Garden, and push it somewhere else!?

[@robertw.previdi5450]

Who will pay?

[@LaurenLover81]

There’s a big empty space across from MSG where Pennsylvania Hotel once stood. And given the size of that empty space compared to MSG itself, you can definitely fit MSG across from current MSG now. Dolan family and MSG Entertainment have to buy that lot from Vornado Realty.

[@CoreyGary]

I've been following this project for over a decade. This video was very well put together. Some thoughts: - It will be deeply unpopular if the NYC government forces The Dolans to sell and/or demolish The Garden. I'm a sports fan, and the Garden is the most historic Sports Arena in the United States and one of the Top Five in the world. Tearing down MSG would appease transit goers, but the Garden is historically significant in American Culture. Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier fought there. 2001 concert for NY. Multiple UFC fights, concerts, and conventions. Is it practical to tear down MSG? Yes. Do we lose culture? Yes. - Briefly mentioned, but The Dolans operate two entertainment venues in MSG above Penn Station. Below the arena bowl is The Theater at Madison Square Garden. This venue isn't nearly as famous as the Arena Bowl. It only seats 5k people. The Dolans should be forced to tear the Theater down so Penn Station can rise vertically. - The solution here lies in multiple government agencies and private companies cooperating. NYC needs to give permits for the MSG complex to turn W31st and W33rd streets and Pennsylvania Plaza into pedestrian zones. The Dolans should be forced to tear down the Hulu Theater so Penn Station can be built vertically. Reduce tracks and enable through running. Build a bunch of office buildings and residential housing. We don't need a new grandiose Penn Station with Marble Columns. What we need is one more story above Penn Station and through running.

[@robertw.previdi5450]

I've been following this project for 50 years. And I've been attending games at MSG since I was 8. I have an affinity for both. But this is the 4th iteration of MSG. That is one of the reasons the 50th and 8th Avenue Station is so large. Because version 3 was located there. That said, I could be swayed either way. I do really like the access to transit, but a Hudson Yard stadium would be next to the new #7 train which can easily handle the crowds.

[@agimternova5150]

How about transferring MSG to Central Park?!🤔🤔🤔 I"m asking for a friend...😏😏😏

[@louisastuto2878]

You’re out of your mind if you think MSG is getting relocated anytime soon. It’s sad that Penn station is a gigantic mess, but they are going to have to figure out a solution that includes MSG. The city will never win in a legal battle against MSG, MSG has the rights to the land it’s built on and is one of the most important job creating and revenue generating venues in the entire world.

[@brabblemaster401]

Destroying MSG is the worst idea. Yes it sucks that Penns Station was torn down, but MSG that replaced it is the most iconic arena in north America if not the world. Holding some of the most well known events in history. Also the only sports or large concert venue still in Manhattan. A way has to be found to keep the main garden, whether it be using the space around it or using the hulu theater footprint. Also wonder if they could extent a few of the tunnels to transferer the traffic to the new train hall.

[@robertozeladarodriguez5321]

It would be relocated, not eliminated. Reconstructing the old station has much more aesthetic and functional value.

[@brabblemaster401]

@@robertozeladarodriguez5321 no it wouldn't. It'd be a new building, hence demolished.

[@robertozeladarodriguez5321]

@@brabblemaster401 I understand, but I don't see the problem if they build a place for those events a few streets away from the reconstructed station.

[@brabblemaster401]

@robertozeladarodriguez5321 ypu can't simply move the history. MSG is the most historic arena standing. It's to late for Penn station It's gone. No amount of rebuilding will bring back the historic structure lost. When the plans to take the theater, build a corridor in the center and rebuild underneath MSG fix the issues. Theirs no need to take the block back, especially when the train hall next door already moved a good amount of traffic to it

[@robertozeladarodriguez5321]

@@brabblemaster401 I believe that priority should be given to beautifying the city, that stadium is iconic but it is not beautiful and can easily be replaced by a better structure.

[@javianjohnson8746]

Moving MSG is an absolutely terrible idea. The Garden stays

[@gabetalks9275]

Transit takes priority. MSG has been torn down and replaced three before already. Dolan can cry me a river. Old Penn Station was an iconic modern marvel that should've never been torn down.

[@robertozeladarodriguez5321]

@@gabetalks9275 It can be reconstructed if desired.

[@peace8373]

It is way past time to invest in the future. If you look around the World great cities have the public transit for people to move around. The future is cities without cars, that space needs to be used for community needs. I thought MSG had a lease on the air rights, well look what we did to build our freeways, eminent domain, for public use. The Federal Government is helping build new tunnels, now tax your real estate class for public good, and that will help fill there commercial space too.

[@perfectman3077]

NYC's local government is just so, so incompetent. It truly boggles the mind how badly democracy can fail.

[@coasterpath]

There’s no way 1.5 billion in 1968

[@mattyg4186]

Old Penn station is not returning it would cost both the City & State of NY more money than they could afford. Pennsylvania Railroad sold the air rights it was their rights to sell it everyone needs to understand that.

[@mattygtheoneandonly]

This will never happen because where will MSG go?

[@Transit_Biker]

Doesn’t matter. This is the third “garden”. Would likely move uptown where property prices are lower, or queens near citi field.

[@filanfyretracker]

Could probably stick it over the Hudson Yards.

[@gabetalks9275]

ReThinkNYC plans to move one block east to the intersection of 34th Street and Broadway at Herald Square. Hudson Yards and the Port Authority Bus Terminal are also options.

[@mattygtheoneandonly]

@@gabetalks9275 that could work

[@mattygtheoneandonly]

@@Transit_Biker those are good locations

[@AndreiTupolev]

The developers win every time. 🙁

[@robertw.previdi5450]

They have not won this time. And the proposed expansion using taxpayer dollars to do so is on hold, so stay tuned.

[@sbinnala]

Fun fact: MSG won't move. Dolan has more than enough money to make it not happen. Drop it. Use the derelict taxiway on 33rd and replace the theatre, now you have a great Penn Station entrance. Enough of this charade. Moving MSG has a price tag as much as 10 billion. NYC residents will not stand for that, because it WILL come out of THEIR pockets.

[@FrederickJenny]

I think the only way to do this right is follow what Rethink Penn Station suggests. ITs the best option and rights a wrong from our past. Also a video suggestion is if you do a video on the Rio Grande Plan in Salt Lake City

[@zo62]

Move msg to florida

[@brian_brennan42]

I am a transportation fan but more importantly I am a Knicks and Rangers fan and you can absolutely miss me on the glass enclosure of MSG.

[@donanz7543]

in Typical NY fashion it will either die in concept or will be constructed billions over budget and decades late, all at a time when NYC should be focusing its funds and energy in other more dire areas

[@robf9642]

Moving or getting rid of MSG is a horrible idea. The arena is actually on the 5th floor. Their is plenty of space to negotiate. Id agree with one idea of getting rid of the theatre. That would open up enough room to give penn station a much better look and feel. NYC also doesnt have a size below arena music venue. So part of the negotiations should give a replacement but bigger venue to replace the theatre.

[@robertw.previdi5450]

This was written 11 years ago: pennstationblog.blogspot.com/2013/04/so-far-moving-msg-theater-is-most.html

[@abp1400]

They need to just pay Dolan to move MSG. I'm sure they can give him enough in tax breaks and subsidies to make it work. The "build around MSG" plan is dumb and untenable.

[@richardjones2964]

REBUILD REBUILD REBUILD

[@marblehillpjs]

I wish they would have moved MSG to Hudson Yards

[@robertw.previdi5450]

Could still happen.

[@hyphen5322]

Alyssa Bistrimovich

[@Honestcritic79]

Let’s have a city vote: MSG stay or Penn Station rebuilt.

[@meanchelia]

can you do a transportation tier list video?

[@Chyeahokay]

Honestly, if they kept out the homeless, and removed all the drug dealers outside. And maybe kept the station cleaner, it wouldn’t be so bad.

[@Transit_Biker]

Get MSG out of there already.

[@drdewott9154]

Eat the rich! Rebuild Penn station!

[@scottduke2809]

MSG is an outdated and frankly quite BORING arena... destroy it and rebuild, you can put a much larger arena in less space with some vertical balconies thus opening up a lot of new space for Penn Station upgrades or whatever. Dolen family is a piece of ****

[@palm0607]

I wish we could take a couple billion from our military budget and just rebuild the old peen station.....we really lost something great and it needs to be resurrected

[@exit6610]

Right off the bat the video gets off to a bad start. MSG did not cost $1.1 billion to build in 1968. That cost may be current dollars, but that fact needs to be stated as such, not just glossed over. Heck, if MSG costs a billion in 1968, God only know what it would cost now. Always fun when KZbinrs uses current information comparing standards to the past without doing a little bit of research, and its a common theme of errors on KZbin when it comes to sports and stadiums, like for example one will say baseball team "X" only drew 2 million fans a season in the 1970s in their effort to explain bad attendance when at that time those numbers were spectacular (along with baseball being far more popular then).

[@davidpayne3628]

This video needs to be redone with a professional narrator

[@jst4572]

Arguably you could move MSG somewhere else in the city outside of manhattan. Maybe the South or East Bronx? Maybe it’d be easier for them to build a new stadium at Willets Point than part Yankee owned NYCFC.

[@leobethge6002]

Other European cities rebuilt after WW2. Why can't we rebuild one building, especially with the foundation beams still in place?

[@DSQueenie]

I think the difference is when London was rebuilt there wasn’t anything else placed there before the rebuilding occurred.

[@robertw.previdi5450]

who pays fr moving MSG? Is it right to spend $2+ billion of public funds? That is the question.

[@lisaroberts8556]

Liberals run our City. They’re too busy spending money on other people. (Not Americans) And pocketing the rest.

[@shawnhicks8112]

why can't they reroute the trains to the Monahan station? they're going to force Dolan to relocate the teams out of NYC

[@DHP1975]

Because there is no direct access to tracks 1-4. I am curious if Penn South is the answer and solution to this?

[@MichaelfromtheGraves]

@@DHP1975NJ Transit doesn't have to use Tracks 1-4. They only do so to not take space from Amtrak. They key to not tearing down the block to the south is to implement through running and reduce dwell times in general. Penn Station needs fewer tracks, not more.

[@thetrainguy1]

Can't NYC use eminent domain to kick MSG off of Penn Station?

[@dogcowrph]

Don’t give them ideas.

[@bobsteve4812]

Yes but this is America we are talking about, MSG will be there forever.

[@Sylvander1911]

@@bobsteve4812 Or they can move back to their original site actually at Madison Square.

[@bobsteve4812]

@@Sylvander1911 That would be great and I would fully support it, but the Dolan’s would never allow it. They have far far more power than any org out there who wants to rebuild the old Penn station above ground so unfortunately this is a lost cause.

[@robertm3951]

NYC won't spend that kind of money for an MTA project. The plan is the governor's anyway.

[@shaungorham7959]

C.

[@connorparadis4804]

Great video - but I think you underestimate the popularity of MSG among New Yorkers. It would be political suicide to be the mayor that demolished MSG, even if a relocation is the best plan for better transit and makes day-to-day life objectively better. That's just the reality of the situation.

[@gabetalks9275]

The decision to half MSG's permit was a result of public pressure from the residents of the city. Most New Yorkers may love MSG to death, but they're not oblivious to the fact that transit is more important because of them use the subway and consequently, have to deal with the hellscape that is current Penn Station on a regular basis. Nor are they oblivious to the fact that MSG has already be torn town and rebuilt three times before already. The loss of Old Penn Station is still mourn by not only New Yorkers, but the entire country 60 years later. I think most New Yorkers would jump for joy to have Old Penn Station back because MSG will find a new home, but there's only one Penn Station. Most of the people opposed to ReThinkNYC's plans are just delusional sports fans who unironically see MSG as a modern day Colosseum and are too emotionally attached to it to let it go for the greater good.

[@connorparadis4804]

@@gabetalks9275 To be clear, I 100% agree that relocating MSG and rebuilding Penn is what *should* be done. I just think the video skipped over the fact that there are a LOT of people who would be very very vocal in opposition to this, and will take significant political courage to overcome those voices. It's not just "making the Dolan family happy".

[@javianjohnson8746]

Absolutely agree. Im 100% against moving MSG. Sounds like such a ridiculous idea anyway

[@gabetalks9275]

@@javianjohnson8746 MSG dominating the entire space makes it impossible to fix Penn Station's issues at the track level because MSG's support beams rest on the platforms along with the fact that Penn Station is basically a glorified cramped basement. MSG has to move out of necessity. The railroads are calling for it for a reason. MSG has been torn down and replaced three times before already and transit always takes priority. It's time to let go of MSG. They can find another spot in Manhattan.

[@PatGunn]

I live in Manhattan. I prefer transit; MSG has moved before and can move again.

[@vincentlu36]

Why not to build a new train station current msg site at ground level and a new MSG above..

[@cryorig_transit05]

Get rid of MSG. It's hideous, and doesn't fit in a city center. Transportation is important. Also, it was a mistake to destroy the old NYP.

[@jimslancio]

I thought Penn Station was gone for good. Interesting ...